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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 17 2011 02:32 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:13 vaderseven wrote:It was really fun coaching this game. Blazinghang, Tunkeg, and adam4167 were my 'students'. Blazinghand was fun to talk to and coach. Took a real ballsy approach to being a medic. He really stayed focused on scumhunting and was able to see past some things that normally distract from that. Tunkeg played a lower key game and I wish he had contacted me before that slapfight with layabout got the point it did. I think that interchange is a great lesson that everyone in this game can pick up on about aggression, slapfights, and how those things really dont indicate alignment and how they can be used as tools (in the case of aggresion) or distractions (slapfights). Adam died right as he was starting to use me.  Thanks for caching man, and sorry for beeing such a bad student. I regret not using you more through out the entire game. In retrospect I should have run both the xsksc case and the probability lynch by you as well, and then I could have avoided them entirely  . The entire bash with layabout was just completely silly, and was probably the single worst play of the game... Funny that you were BH's coach seeing the last pm I sent to you before the game ended 
What was it? Was it "I think BH is scum should I lynch him?"
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On December 17 2011 02:37 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 02:32 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 00:13 vaderseven wrote:It was really fun coaching this game. Blazinghang, Tunkeg, and adam4167 were my 'students'. Blazinghand was fun to talk to and coach. Took a real ballsy approach to being a medic. He really stayed focused on scumhunting and was able to see past some things that normally distract from that. Tunkeg played a lower key game and I wish he had contacted me before that slapfight with layabout got the point it did. I think that interchange is a great lesson that everyone in this game can pick up on about aggression, slapfights, and how those things really dont indicate alignment and how they can be used as tools (in the case of aggresion) or distractions (slapfights). Adam died right as he was starting to use me. Thanks for caching man, and sorry for beeing such a bad student. I regret not using you more through out the entire game. In retrospect I should have run both the xsksc case and the probability lynch by you as well, and then I could have avoided them entirely . The entire bash with layabout was just completely silly, and was probably the single worst play of the game... Funny that you were BH's coach seeing the last pm I sent to you before the game ended What was it? Was it "I think BH is scum should I lynch him?"
It was a resigned message where I QQ'ed about how badly town would lose if you and layabout were scum. And all possible reasons to why that just might be
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 17 2011 02:44 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 02:37 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2011 02:32 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 00:13 vaderseven wrote:It was really fun coaching this game. Blazinghang, Tunkeg, and adam4167 were my 'students'. Blazinghand was fun to talk to and coach. Took a real ballsy approach to being a medic. He really stayed focused on scumhunting and was able to see past some things that normally distract from that. Tunkeg played a lower key game and I wish he had contacted me before that slapfight with layabout got the point it did. I think that interchange is a great lesson that everyone in this game can pick up on about aggression, slapfights, and how those things really dont indicate alignment and how they can be used as tools (in the case of aggresion) or distractions (slapfights). Adam died right as he was starting to use me. Thanks for caching man, and sorry for beeing such a bad student. I regret not using you more through out the entire game. In retrospect I should have run both the xsksc case and the probability lynch by you as well, and then I could have avoided them entirely . The entire bash with layabout was just completely silly, and was probably the single worst play of the game... Funny that you were BH's coach seeing the last pm I sent to you before the game ended What was it? Was it "I think BH is scum should I lynch him?" It was a resigned message where I QQ'ed about how badly town would lose if you and layabout were scum. And all possible reasons to why that just might be
Well, you know, if I WERE scum, I could have easily forced a mislynch day 4, and uh... yeah. Things would have been bad. That being said, I probably would have been less adamant about the JB Lynch on day 2 wifom wifom wifom wifom etc. I actually was not suspicious of Layabout, just because he was really putting himself out there-- I mean, I didn't think "oh he must be town" but he was putting some serious effort into his arguments, and given that he was coming in from being a replacement of a replacement, if he was scum he could be fairly cautious and respond to any criticism with "hey man I dunno why my predecessors did that either" or something. I thought his play was fairly pro-town.
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On December 17 2011 02:48 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 02:44 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 02:37 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2011 02:32 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 00:13 vaderseven wrote:It was really fun coaching this game. Blazinghang, Tunkeg, and adam4167 were my 'students'. Blazinghand was fun to talk to and coach. Took a real ballsy approach to being a medic. He really stayed focused on scumhunting and was able to see past some things that normally distract from that. Tunkeg played a lower key game and I wish he had contacted me before that slapfight with layabout got the point it did. I think that interchange is a great lesson that everyone in this game can pick up on about aggression, slapfights, and how those things really dont indicate alignment and how they can be used as tools (in the case of aggresion) or distractions (slapfights). Adam died right as he was starting to use me. Thanks for caching man, and sorry for beeing such a bad student. I regret not using you more through out the entire game. In retrospect I should have run both the xsksc case and the probability lynch by you as well, and then I could have avoided them entirely . The entire bash with layabout was just completely silly, and was probably the single worst play of the game... Funny that you were BH's coach seeing the last pm I sent to you before the game ended What was it? Was it "I think BH is scum should I lynch him?" It was a resigned message where I QQ'ed about how badly town would lose if you and layabout were scum. And all possible reasons to why that just might be Well, you know, if I WERE scum, I could have easily forced a mislynch day 4, and uh... yeah. Things would have been bad. That being said, I probably would have been less adamant about the JB Lynch on day 2 wifom wifom wifom wifom etc. I actually was not suspicious of Layabout, just because he was really putting himself out there-- I mean, I didn't think "oh he must be town" but he was putting some serious effort into his arguments, and given that he was coming in from being a replacement of a replacement, if he was scum he could be fairly cautious and respond to any criticism with "hey man I dunno why my predecessors did that either" or something. I thought his play was fairly pro-town.
Yeah, some of my reasoning was that you could have made an awesome bussing of JB. I kind of listed up this incredible scenario where both of you were scum
For layabout I guess the only one who had him anywhere near scum was me. And the only reason for that was that I was pissed off at him. So yeah, I guess vaderseven either facepalmed hard or laughed his ass off after that pm (me guessing the first )
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 17 2011 03:03 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 02:48 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2011 02:44 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 02:37 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2011 02:32 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 00:13 vaderseven wrote:It was really fun coaching this game. Blazinghang, Tunkeg, and adam4167 were my 'students'. Blazinghand was fun to talk to and coach. Took a real ballsy approach to being a medic. He really stayed focused on scumhunting and was able to see past some things that normally distract from that. Tunkeg played a lower key game and I wish he had contacted me before that slapfight with layabout got the point it did. I think that interchange is a great lesson that everyone in this game can pick up on about aggression, slapfights, and how those things really dont indicate alignment and how they can be used as tools (in the case of aggresion) or distractions (slapfights). Adam died right as he was starting to use me. Thanks for caching man, and sorry for beeing such a bad student. I regret not using you more through out the entire game. In retrospect I should have run both the xsksc case and the probability lynch by you as well, and then I could have avoided them entirely . The entire bash with layabout was just completely silly, and was probably the single worst play of the game... Funny that you were BH's coach seeing the last pm I sent to you before the game ended What was it? Was it "I think BH is scum should I lynch him?" It was a resigned message where I QQ'ed about how badly town would lose if you and layabout were scum. And all possible reasons to why that just might be Well, you know, if I WERE scum, I could have easily forced a mislynch day 4, and uh... yeah. Things would have been bad. That being said, I probably would have been less adamant about the JB Lynch on day 2 wifom wifom wifom wifom etc. I actually was not suspicious of Layabout, just because he was really putting himself out there-- I mean, I didn't think "oh he must be town" but he was putting some serious effort into his arguments, and given that he was coming in from being a replacement of a replacement, if he was scum he could be fairly cautious and respond to any criticism with "hey man I dunno why my predecessors did that either" or something. I thought his play was fairly pro-town. Yeah, some of my reasoning was that you could have made an awesome bussing of JB. I kind of listed up this incredible scenario where both of you were scum For layabout I guess the only one who had him anywhere near scum was me. And the only reason for that was that I was pissed off at him. So yeah, I guess vaderseven either facepalmed hard or laughed his ass off after that pm (me guessing the first )
So I was actually in touch with V7 basically constantly throughout the game. I communicated with him via AIM mostly and got feedback all the time. I found it to be super helpful to do this, especially since I could be like "hey I think this post is inconsistent with his post, etc etc" and copy and paste and get instant response. He was very good about it.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I also feel like the mafia need a coach who's in sync with them time zone wise. Like, 2 of them were on australian time and one of them was on UK time I think? And the coach, BC, was on US time. I was looking through their QT and it would be like several hours of mafia like trying to figure out what to do, then doing it, and sometimes they'd be on at the same time as the coach and he'd offer feedback, and other times he'd be on but they wouldn't so he'd drop some big posts of advice.
Like, when bluelightz had pressure on him, both he and the BC were online, and BC talked him through a credible defense. But he was not online during parts of the JB argument with me. It wasn't until later that he was online, and I was tunneling JB pretty hard at that point. I feel like if the mafia coach and scumteam had the same timezone, or at least more compatible ones, JB's defense would have been more like bluelightz, and overall things would have been better. I understand this is largely a problem of like logistics and # of coaches, but it's a thought for later student games.
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On December 17 2011 03:03 Tunkeg wrote:Yeah, some of my reasoning was that you could have made an awesome bussing of JB. I kind of listed up this incredible scenario where both of you were scum
It did kinda work. The parallel-universe BH scum masterplan:
1. Pressure lurkers hard through day 1, lynch a marginal lurker.
2. Meanwhile JB blatantly and repeatedly defends BKEXE.
3. Beg for medics, softclaim DT.
4. String up JB, who offers himself up for the slaughter with a laughable scumslip.
5. String up the now obvious candidate, BKEXE.
6. And we're down to 5 town vs 2 mafia, with town having absolutely no idea what's going on.
I stared at BH's posts for quite a while though and I couldn't see any hint of him being anything but genuine. Didn't seem plausible with that sort of post count.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 17 2011 03:39 jaj22 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 03:03 Tunkeg wrote:Yeah, some of my reasoning was that you could have made an awesome bussing of JB. I kind of listed up this incredible scenario where both of you were scum It did kinda work. The parallel-universe BH scum masterplan: 1. Pressure lurkers hard through day 1, lynch a marginal lurker. 2. Meanwhile JB blatantly and repeatedly defends BKEXE. 3. Beg for medics, softclaim DT. 4. String up JB, who offers himself up for the slaughter with a laughable scumslip. 5. String up the now obvious candidate, BKEXE. 6. And we're down to 5 town vs 2 mafia, with town having absolutely no idea what's going on. I stared at BH's posts for quite a while though and I couldn't see any hint of him being anything but genuine. Didn't seem plausible with that sort of post count.
The only danger in a plan like that (besides the fact that I have to post a lot and not slip up) is that my soft claim of DT was my way of telling the real DT that I was a Doctor and I was drawing all the roleblocks. If I'm a mafia guy, there's some chance we'll accidentally kill or shoot the real Doctor (or he'll save someone) and then i'll have some serious explaining to do.
Not a bad plan though. Bus day 2, then try to get 2-3 days of cred out of it.
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On December 17 2011 03:03 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 02:48 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2011 02:44 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 02:37 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2011 02:32 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 00:13 vaderseven wrote:It was really fun coaching this game. Blazinghang, Tunkeg, and adam4167 were my 'students'. Blazinghand was fun to talk to and coach. Took a real ballsy approach to being a medic. He really stayed focused on scumhunting and was able to see past some things that normally distract from that. Tunkeg played a lower key game and I wish he had contacted me before that slapfight with layabout got the point it did. I think that interchange is a great lesson that everyone in this game can pick up on about aggression, slapfights, and how those things really dont indicate alignment and how they can be used as tools (in the case of aggresion) or distractions (slapfights). Adam died right as he was starting to use me. Thanks for caching man, and sorry for beeing such a bad student. I regret not using you more through out the entire game. In retrospect I should have run both the xsksc case and the probability lynch by you as well, and then I could have avoided them entirely . The entire bash with layabout was just completely silly, and was probably the single worst play of the game... Funny that you were BH's coach seeing the last pm I sent to you before the game ended What was it? Was it "I think BH is scum should I lynch him?" It was a resigned message where I QQ'ed about how badly town would lose if you and layabout were scum. And all possible reasons to why that just might be Well, you know, if I WERE scum, I could have easily forced a mislynch day 4, and uh... yeah. Things would have been bad. That being said, I probably would have been less adamant about the JB Lynch on day 2 wifom wifom wifom wifom etc. I actually was not suspicious of Layabout, just because he was really putting himself out there-- I mean, I didn't think "oh he must be town" but he was putting some serious effort into his arguments, and given that he was coming in from being a replacement of a replacement, if he was scum he could be fairly cautious and respond to any criticism with "hey man I dunno why my predecessors did that either" or something. I thought his play was fairly pro-town. Yeah, some of my reasoning was that you could have made an awesome bussing of JB. I kind of listed up this incredible scenario where both of you were scum For layabout I guess the only one who had him anywhere near scum was me. And the only reason for that was that I was pissed off at him. So yeah, I guess vaderseven either facepalmed hard or laughed his ass off after that pm (me guessing the first )
If your theory about a player necessarily includes "awesome bussing" (particularly in a newbie game) you're probably thinking too hard and incorrectly.
From a scum perspective it hurts a lot more to lose a single player than town. Scum don't need to bus in order to win, and in fact they usually rarely do it.
I for one hate bussing; I only do it when absolutely necessary. This would only be true for me if my teammate was caught and there was no foreseeable way of saving him without taking massive suspicion. At that point you bus.
If you can find reasonable evidence for such a situation, you might have a theory. Nothing like that existed in this game, IIRC, so you go with the simplest explanation; BH and Jay could not both be scum.
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On December 17 2011 05:58 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 03:03 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 02:48 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2011 02:44 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 02:37 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2011 02:32 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 00:13 vaderseven wrote:It was really fun coaching this game. Blazinghang, Tunkeg, and adam4167 were my 'students'. Blazinghand was fun to talk to and coach. Took a real ballsy approach to being a medic. He really stayed focused on scumhunting and was able to see past some things that normally distract from that. Tunkeg played a lower key game and I wish he had contacted me before that slapfight with layabout got the point it did. I think that interchange is a great lesson that everyone in this game can pick up on about aggression, slapfights, and how those things really dont indicate alignment and how they can be used as tools (in the case of aggresion) or distractions (slapfights). Adam died right as he was starting to use me. Thanks for caching man, and sorry for beeing such a bad student. I regret not using you more through out the entire game. In retrospect I should have run both the xsksc case and the probability lynch by you as well, and then I could have avoided them entirely . The entire bash with layabout was just completely silly, and was probably the single worst play of the game... Funny that you were BH's coach seeing the last pm I sent to you before the game ended What was it? Was it "I think BH is scum should I lynch him?" It was a resigned message where I QQ'ed about how badly town would lose if you and layabout were scum. And all possible reasons to why that just might be Well, you know, if I WERE scum, I could have easily forced a mislynch day 4, and uh... yeah. Things would have been bad. That being said, I probably would have been less adamant about the JB Lynch on day 2 wifom wifom wifom wifom etc. I actually was not suspicious of Layabout, just because he was really putting himself out there-- I mean, I didn't think "oh he must be town" but he was putting some serious effort into his arguments, and given that he was coming in from being a replacement of a replacement, if he was scum he could be fairly cautious and respond to any criticism with "hey man I dunno why my predecessors did that either" or something. I thought his play was fairly pro-town. Yeah, some of my reasoning was that you could have made an awesome bussing of JB. I kind of listed up this incredible scenario where both of you were scum For layabout I guess the only one who had him anywhere near scum was me. And the only reason for that was that I was pissed off at him. So yeah, I guess vaderseven either facepalmed hard or laughed his ass off after that pm (me guessing the first ) If your theory about a player necessarily includes "awesome bussing" (particularly in a newbie game) you're probably thinking too hard and incorrectly. From a scum perspective it hurts a lot more to lose a single player than town. Scum don't need to bus in order to win, and in fact they usually rarely do it. I for one hate bussing; I only do it when absolutely necessary. This would only be true for me if my teammate was caught and there was no foreseeable way of saving him without taking massive suspicion. At that point you bus. If you can find reasonable evidence for such a situation, you might have a theory. Nothing like that existed in this game, IIRC, so you go with the simplest explanation; BH and Jay could not both be scum.
I agree. I think I approached the game wrong, and missed the real reads while making some bad cases based to much on speculations and what-ifs.
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On December 17 2011 07:05 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 05:58 wherebugsgo wrote:On December 17 2011 03:03 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 02:48 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2011 02:44 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 02:37 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2011 02:32 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 00:13 vaderseven wrote:It was really fun coaching this game. Blazinghang, Tunkeg, and adam4167 were my 'students'. Blazinghand was fun to talk to and coach. Took a real ballsy approach to being a medic. He really stayed focused on scumhunting and was able to see past some things that normally distract from that. Tunkeg played a lower key game and I wish he had contacted me before that slapfight with layabout got the point it did. I think that interchange is a great lesson that everyone in this game can pick up on about aggression, slapfights, and how those things really dont indicate alignment and how they can be used as tools (in the case of aggresion) or distractions (slapfights). Adam died right as he was starting to use me. Thanks for caching man, and sorry for beeing such a bad student. I regret not using you more through out the entire game. In retrospect I should have run both the xsksc case and the probability lynch by you as well, and then I could have avoided them entirely . The entire bash with layabout was just completely silly, and was probably the single worst play of the game... Funny that you were BH's coach seeing the last pm I sent to you before the game ended What was it? Was it "I think BH is scum should I lynch him?" It was a resigned message where I QQ'ed about how badly town would lose if you and layabout were scum. And all possible reasons to why that just might be Well, you know, if I WERE scum, I could have easily forced a mislynch day 4, and uh... yeah. Things would have been bad. That being said, I probably would have been less adamant about the JB Lynch on day 2 wifom wifom wifom wifom etc. I actually was not suspicious of Layabout, just because he was really putting himself out there-- I mean, I didn't think "oh he must be town" but he was putting some serious effort into his arguments, and given that he was coming in from being a replacement of a replacement, if he was scum he could be fairly cautious and respond to any criticism with "hey man I dunno why my predecessors did that either" or something. I thought his play was fairly pro-town. Yeah, some of my reasoning was that you could have made an awesome bussing of JB. I kind of listed up this incredible scenario where both of you were scum For layabout I guess the only one who had him anywhere near scum was me. And the only reason for that was that I was pissed off at him. So yeah, I guess vaderseven either facepalmed hard or laughed his ass off after that pm (me guessing the first ) If your theory about a player necessarily includes "awesome bussing" (particularly in a newbie game) you're probably thinking too hard and incorrectly. From a scum perspective it hurts a lot more to lose a single player than town. Scum don't need to bus in order to win, and in fact they usually rarely do it. I for one hate bussing; I only do it when absolutely necessary. This would only be true for me if my teammate was caught and there was no foreseeable way of saving him without taking massive suspicion. At that point you bus. If you can find reasonable evidence for such a situation, you might have a theory. Nothing like that existed in this game, IIRC, so you go with the simplest explanation; BH and Jay could not both be scum. I agree. I think I approached the game wrong, and missed the real reads while making some bad cases based to much on speculations and what-ifs.
But wouldn't you bussing as number one be a great meta move in a game where the other players know you? Ofcourse depending on set up and the current state of the game. Or is it in your opinion allways more valuable to have the extra scum player?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 17 2011 07:11 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 07:05 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 05:58 wherebugsgo wrote:On December 17 2011 03:03 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 02:48 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2011 02:44 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 02:37 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2011 02:32 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 00:13 vaderseven wrote:It was really fun coaching this game. Blazinghang, Tunkeg, and adam4167 were my 'students'. Blazinghand was fun to talk to and coach. Took a real ballsy approach to being a medic. He really stayed focused on scumhunting and was able to see past some things that normally distract from that. Tunkeg played a lower key game and I wish he had contacted me before that slapfight with layabout got the point it did. I think that interchange is a great lesson that everyone in this game can pick up on about aggression, slapfights, and how those things really dont indicate alignment and how they can be used as tools (in the case of aggresion) or distractions (slapfights). Adam died right as he was starting to use me. Thanks for caching man, and sorry for beeing such a bad student. I regret not using you more through out the entire game. In retrospect I should have run both the xsksc case and the probability lynch by you as well, and then I could have avoided them entirely . The entire bash with layabout was just completely silly, and was probably the single worst play of the game... Funny that you were BH's coach seeing the last pm I sent to you before the game ended What was it? Was it "I think BH is scum should I lynch him?" It was a resigned message where I QQ'ed about how badly town would lose if you and layabout were scum. And all possible reasons to why that just might be Well, you know, if I WERE scum, I could have easily forced a mislynch day 4, and uh... yeah. Things would have been bad. That being said, I probably would have been less adamant about the JB Lynch on day 2 wifom wifom wifom wifom etc. I actually was not suspicious of Layabout, just because he was really putting himself out there-- I mean, I didn't think "oh he must be town" but he was putting some serious effort into his arguments, and given that he was coming in from being a replacement of a replacement, if he was scum he could be fairly cautious and respond to any criticism with "hey man I dunno why my predecessors did that either" or something. I thought his play was fairly pro-town. Yeah, some of my reasoning was that you could have made an awesome bussing of JB. I kind of listed up this incredible scenario where both of you were scum For layabout I guess the only one who had him anywhere near scum was me. And the only reason for that was that I was pissed off at him. So yeah, I guess vaderseven either facepalmed hard or laughed his ass off after that pm (me guessing the first ) If your theory about a player necessarily includes "awesome bussing" (particularly in a newbie game) you're probably thinking too hard and incorrectly. From a scum perspective it hurts a lot more to lose a single player than town. Scum don't need to bus in order to win, and in fact they usually rarely do it. I for one hate bussing; I only do it when absolutely necessary. This would only be true for me if my teammate was caught and there was no foreseeable way of saving him without taking massive suspicion. At that point you bus. If you can find reasonable evidence for such a situation, you might have a theory. Nothing like that existed in this game, IIRC, so you go with the simplest explanation; BH and Jay could not both be scum. I agree. I think I approached the game wrong, and missed the real reads while making some bad cases based to much on speculations and what-ifs. But wouldn't you bussing as number one be a great meta move in a game where the other players know you? Ofcourse depending on set up and the current state of the game. Or is it in your opinion allways more valuable to have the extra scum player?
I think it's almost always better to have an extra scum player. Starting the wagon yourself is only a good idea if you know he's going down anyways (somehow). The idea is, retain scum players whenever possible. I think the whole deal is like, trying to prevent the LYLO from moving further into the future whenever possible.
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I think almost everyone wanted to hang BH at one point or another during this game.
Myself, ey215 on day 1, Grack and BKEXE in the obs thread, tunkeg on day 4 and the mafia team probably wanted it all game. Popular man!
On night 1, I recall saying to vaderseven that the most ideal situation was for me to be NK1, so I could get away from BH! The way you flip-flopped on Jay's case in the 8 hours before the night-kill really irked me, until i figured out why.
I think the main hurdle I was facing with vader was being asleep during his prime time hours, and yeah, thats really unavoidable unless we had an oceanic coach sign up. I still learned a lot from him for the short time that we had!
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On December 17 2011 07:11 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 07:05 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 05:58 wherebugsgo wrote:On December 17 2011 03:03 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 02:48 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2011 02:44 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 02:37 Blazinghand wrote:On December 17 2011 02:32 Tunkeg wrote:On December 17 2011 00:13 vaderseven wrote:It was really fun coaching this game. Blazinghang, Tunkeg, and adam4167 were my 'students'. Blazinghand was fun to talk to and coach. Took a real ballsy approach to being a medic. He really stayed focused on scumhunting and was able to see past some things that normally distract from that. Tunkeg played a lower key game and I wish he had contacted me before that slapfight with layabout got the point it did. I think that interchange is a great lesson that everyone in this game can pick up on about aggression, slapfights, and how those things really dont indicate alignment and how they can be used as tools (in the case of aggresion) or distractions (slapfights). Adam died right as he was starting to use me. Thanks for caching man, and sorry for beeing such a bad student. I regret not using you more through out the entire game. In retrospect I should have run both the xsksc case and the probability lynch by you as well, and then I could have avoided them entirely . The entire bash with layabout was just completely silly, and was probably the single worst play of the game... Funny that you were BH's coach seeing the last pm I sent to you before the game ended What was it? Was it "I think BH is scum should I lynch him?" It was a resigned message where I QQ'ed about how badly town would lose if you and layabout were scum. And all possible reasons to why that just might be Well, you know, if I WERE scum, I could have easily forced a mislynch day 4, and uh... yeah. Things would have been bad. That being said, I probably would have been less adamant about the JB Lynch on day 2 wifom wifom wifom wifom etc. I actually was not suspicious of Layabout, just because he was really putting himself out there-- I mean, I didn't think "oh he must be town" but he was putting some serious effort into his arguments, and given that he was coming in from being a replacement of a replacement, if he was scum he could be fairly cautious and respond to any criticism with "hey man I dunno why my predecessors did that either" or something. I thought his play was fairly pro-town. Yeah, some of my reasoning was that you could have made an awesome bussing of JB. I kind of listed up this incredible scenario where both of you were scum For layabout I guess the only one who had him anywhere near scum was me. And the only reason for that was that I was pissed off at him. So yeah, I guess vaderseven either facepalmed hard or laughed his ass off after that pm (me guessing the first ) If your theory about a player necessarily includes "awesome bussing" (particularly in a newbie game) you're probably thinking too hard and incorrectly. From a scum perspective it hurts a lot more to lose a single player than town. Scum don't need to bus in order to win, and in fact they usually rarely do it. I for one hate bussing; I only do it when absolutely necessary. This would only be true for me if my teammate was caught and there was no foreseeable way of saving him without taking massive suspicion. At that point you bus. If you can find reasonable evidence for such a situation, you might have a theory. Nothing like that existed in this game, IIRC, so you go with the simplest explanation; BH and Jay could not both be scum. I agree. I think I approached the game wrong, and missed the real reads while making some bad cases based to much on speculations and what-ifs. But wouldn't you bussing as number one be a great meta move in a game where the other players know you? Ofcourse depending on set up and the current state of the game. Or is it in your opinion allways more valuable to have the extra scum player?
It has happened once that I can remember, and in that situation the player being bussed was bussed on day 2? (I think) and was probably going to die anyway. This was Cosmic Horror mafia, with Jackal bussing JeeJee. Many people thought it was a great bus; I didn't really agree, but I had no control because I was dumb.
It was a game I replaced into; I had correct reads but I failed to post them in the thread before I died 5ish hours after being replaced in due to the deadline being at 6 am and me needing to sleep lol. I basically suspected Jackal based on what I read following the bus. His behavior didn't make sense in light of him being a townie, and the bus was staged in a way that made no sense. I was extremely skeptical that a townie would've caught on JeeJee being suspicious in the way that Jackal did (he "caught" some troll message)
It CAN work, but if it looks staged, someone will catch on later. It's because you can certainly bus day 1 and then try to work uphill to win from there using the "town cred" you get from supporting the lynch of one of your partners day 1. What happens if the other partner gets suspected day 2? Bus him too?
If you don't bus him day 2 then you're in a pickle if he can't be saved. If you do bus him, you're basically playing 1v8 or so as an SK from that point onward.
Think about it this way:
suppose you're part of a 3 man scumteam, against 10 townies. You bus one day 1, then manage to shoot a townie. 9v2 day 2. Mathematically that's horrible.
You have to get consecutive mislynches and night shots for 3 cycles straight, then at lylo you need to bust out your moves to prevent you and your scumbuddy from getting the lynch pole shoved up your rectums.
So, you have to plan for 3 day cycles in advance for everything to go perfectly in order to get to a favorable situation. At that point, if you haven't shot the power roles, you go back to a coinflip situation in which you have very little control over. Lylo situations are very high pressure situations and optimal play is not what you would expect. Thus, there is no way to properly plan for a lylo situation.
If you play normally, though, there won't be that unnatural "really townie thing" day 1 followed by 3 straight days of total derp. Even dumb people will realize after 3 days that it could have been a gamble, since 3 full day cycles (more recently than day 1, at that) of total retard kind of override 1 day of brilliance. On later days people tend to forget what happened early in the game, and often times it's completely irrelevant.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Also, despite taking some minor heat, JB was not suspect at all until I latched onto him, barnacle-like, and clung for 60 hours. It would be one thing if he had been acting very suspicious, and was probably gonna get wagoned as soon as the sun came up, and I took the intiative, or was 2nd on the wagon, riding shotgun, or whatever-- it would be an example of mitigating the inevitable JB loss. This was not an inevitable JB Day 2 lynch, which is why it was unlikely to be a bus. Don't rule it out, of course, but it's unlikely.
On December 17 2011 07:27 Adam4167 wrote:
I think almost everyone wanted to hang BH at one point or another during this game.
Myself, ey215 on day 1, Grack and BKEXE in the obs thread, tunkeg on day 4 and the mafia team probably wanted it all game. Popular man!
You can't lynch an omelet without pissing off some eggs, as they say.
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I'm glad you guys had fun and I hope you've learned a lot about playing mafia, as well.
Thanks to Forumite for being my co-host. I liked the flavor he put together, and his endgame post in particular is about 100 times better than what I had in mind.
Thanks to the coaches for their time and effort: Radfield, syllogism, vaderseven, and BloodyC0bbler.
As far as having a veteran town smurf without having a veteran mafia smurf, ideally there would have been two or three town veterans along with one mafia veteran. Actually, the original plan, which is still visible in the opening posts, was to have 7 new players mixed with 6 others. But with coaches available, veterans aren't really that necessary.
The point about matching coach timezones with players is a good one. The next newcomer game should really take this into account.
Special props to how Blazinghand played as a doctor. I'm not entirely happy the last mafia didn't go down fighting, even though it's true that the odds were sorely stacked against you. If the town really has you collared, it's only an extra day or two, and if not, you might pull off a hero play. In any case, you could have used the remaining time to try out ways of defending yourself.
One thing I really want to say to the town players in this game, which I am 100% serious about: Keep on doing what you did to win this game. Being open and transparent with your opinions, truly reading and evaluating what others are saying, and matching your vote with your reasoning. Please, please, please do not adopt and become tainted by the bad habits that many other TL players exhibit. I would rather have you in a game where I roll town, over many of the other players who play here.
As for how to play mafia, I'm still in the middle of writing something that should cover the fundamentals of playing mafia, but the gist of it is this:
As long as you aren't idiots (there are plenty of these to go around, though), the main ways you really risk being caught is when you're trying to push a contrived case against a townie, or when you're trying to defend a teammate without good reasons to back it up. (Or you get investigated.)
Before the game, discuss with your mafia teammates how far you are willing to go to defend each other. The more you work together to defend each other, the harder it will be for the town to score its first successful lynch, but after that, your team may fall like dominoes. But with the other extreme, if you agree not to defend each other at all, it may be somewhat easier for town to catch and score its first successful lynch, but the subsequent ones will be just as difficult. I personally prefer something closer to the latter end of the spectrum, if the teammates I get are fine with the idea. But of course being willing to defend your teammates might just net you the flawless mafia victory!
If town players are playing in a transparent manner, like in this game - you, too, have to try to appear as transparent as possible, even though your motivations are different, and you have to hide them. Evaluate other players just like a townie would, temporarily forget that you are mafia, and even who your teammates are. But in the other corner of your brain, you need to look for the cop. Who has extra information, and is trying to use it, without being obvious about it? This is more of an art than a science, but some questions to ask yourself when reading would be: Anyone defending someone who isn't obviously town? Someone confidently calling one of you mafia without having much evidence?
If town players aren't playing in a transparent manner, your job is much easier. Your efforts to appear pro-town will go farther, and it'll be easier to single out scummy townies to lynch without looking guilty.
One important thing: Don't play scared. A lot of people play scum like deer in the sights of a hunter. That's not how to look at things. You're wolves among sheep: Town should be scared of you, you're there to confuse, befuddle, and kill.
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Thanks zona for giving the tips 
Will you play in a game soon then hosting one?(>.>)
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I think the hallmark of good scum is someone who is able to push his or her own agenda without actually taking the credit for it.
Thus, when bad things start happening, the good scum don't get blamed for it. Instead, the goal would be to try to get the scariest townie you can to take the fall. The beauty is that, if this works, no one can clearly identify the genesis of the idea that X is scum, so when X doesn't flip scum, the town self destructs in the attempt to figure out who is misleading them.
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Sorry to come barging in here, but:
[g]Is there going to be a similar type of Newbie game in the near future?[/g] I pretty much got curbstomped by the vets in Election Mafia, and I'd like to have a game with other newbs to learn how to play in a bit more, well, newb friendly environment.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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EPT
