EPTTo jump right in, Palmar comes across like a mayor who is capabable of getting the mass of us townies to follow his lead so ill give him my vote for mayor. I haven't seen his previous games but it seems he has quite a name here. Only thing that's strikes me as odd is the pingpong between him and youngminii right from the getgo.
TL Mafia XLVII - Page 30
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Cwave
Netherlands313 Posts
To jump right in, Palmar comes across like a mayor who is capabable of getting the mass of us townies to follow his lead so ill give him my vote for mayor. I haven't seen his previous games but it seems he has quite a name here. Only thing that's strikes me as odd is the pingpong between him and youngminii right from the getgo. | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2572 Posts
The two candidates that appeal to me the most thus far are prplhz and Palmar, since they both took the time to put some effort into their candidacy announcements. However, the more thought I give it, the more prplhz's candidacy just doesn't feel right to me. He's formulated his statement to be very appealing to new players with his "if you're scared of getting lynched" appeal and by including his guide, and has followed it up with utter passivity. That could just be good politicking with a population made up mostly of noobs who might be repelled by agressive behavior, but it could also be the result of the conflict between scum's urge to get into elected office and to keep their heads down and avoid drawing too much attention. Palmar's campaign is the only one that has much substance so far in terms of his actually discussing and defending himself, and as far as I can see he at least is articulate and capable of arguing. Given my lack of experience, I don't trust myself to try for more of a read on him than that, but others with more games are saying he'd be a good choice, and I don't see anything that makes me think otherwise. sandroba would have been my other option based on what appears to be a good reputation, but his announcement post seemed rather incoherent to me, and I really want to be electing people who can argue a case clearly. ##Vote Palmar | ||
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hyshes
Belgium428 Posts
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7875 Posts
My friends, I shall seek out injustice wherever it may hide. I will shine the light in the dark corners, I will remove the masks and reveal the faces under. I will protect you from the coming storm, I offer shelter of a warm fire for those in need. I offer my wisdom and experience to those who would have it. My fellow running mates speak well, they speak long. Some are more fit than others but that is merely a case of personality. Some men/women were born to lead whereas others were not. If you choose to elect me I will pursue those who behave in a manner that is against the town. I will analyze people, I will critique analysis. I will drag those who are lurking out into the light for scrutiny. Those who are found guilty will be hanged, shot, blown up, raped with a rake. In this setup communication is key. We do not have the luxury of backroom dealings like our foes, but we will not need those backrooms this game. As for now a more specific part of the game. I will now outline how investigative blues will perform night 1 of this game. Detectives Regardless of if I win this election or not I will post three names during night 1 (hopefully near the start). EVERY single one of you will investigate one of these names. The reason for this is for sanity clarification process. All of you will be sitting on the information of one specific person. It will all be different. Sane people will have the person flip the natural alignment. Paranoid will have it flip scum always, insane flip in reverse (anti town as town and town as anti town) and naive always town. But mr. BC with this a mafia framer can easily fuck everything all up! This could almost be true. Except this is where the rolecop comes in. All rolecops will also check into this list. IF a rolecop spots a red in this list we lynch that person, medics now have a medic target to protect for further nights. In the event multiple reds are caught via this process we have night 2 vig targets as well. Now, obviously people will say "but this wastes night 1 checks" however there is a reason for this. The only players who can catch average goons via checks are detectives. As the case with most newer players is to lurk, and most TL players mafia style is to sit back and let town kill itself we are giving the people capable of finding what should be the vast majority of the mafia a head start early on. This is night 1 only. In subsequent nights if people warrant checks it would be possible to create lists for those again, but doing it multiple days in a row risks throwing to many chances of being framed into the mix. YES day 1 results could be framed. Which is why people at their own pace should randomly recheck the day 1 target. This is only different unless that person dies. However with a list of three people the likely hood of all three being framed are very unlikely. Note: to rolecops. If you spot a miller and are alive, and at any point in the game someone trys to push that players death defend the miller please. You are the only ones in this game who should be able to save them (based on OP description of miller). Now, I am all for tweaking of this idea to make it more viable for the entire player base but it should be rather straightforward to decide. There are risks that accompany it and I am fully aware of that but first time blues and especially ones who are not sure of how good or not good their role is need to figure out its use early on to be any help with it later. Any questions comments or concerns I will respond to whenever the hell I get off work this evening. A vote for BC is a vote not only for transparency, but one for someone who will scum hunt, help organize a town, and kill mafia. Thank you. | ||
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Nokarot
United States1410 Posts
When the information is clear and everybody has been given a chance to make their full arguments and rebuttals (not currently available because most everybody is sleeping) I will change my vote accordingly. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
On November 24 2011 20:48 minus_human wrote: How can I, as a new player, verify the truth. You can read past games. Last game I played as mafia I got lynched on day 1. Last game I played as town I lead a lynch on mafia day 1, only to be killed night 1. However, my prowess as mafia or town is always going to be up to the judgement of the individual, and cannot be solidly proven. Youngminii hasn't played with me in a long while, so while his opinion on my scum play may be valid from when we played together, that doesn't make him automatically correct now, many games later. I would think that this ought not to be basis on whether you vote me or not. Despite myself perceiving my mafia play as worse than my town play (perhaps I'm overreacting to having failed the last game or two I played as scum), it is my alignment this game that matters. And remember, pure statistics say it's 70-80% chance I'm town, so unless you have a good reason to believe I'm scum, you should trust me. So yeah, go ahead, read up on my past, it will give you a good idea on who I am and why I should be trusted. Just a little helpful tip for the newbies, because this confused the hell out of me when I started playing. We often abbreviate playernames (BloodyC0bbler is BC, youngminii is YM etc). | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
On November 24 2011 21:02 Nokarot wrote: I voted for him because he had direction (both in helping people and policies) and made his plans clear. As xtfftc mentioned, policies aren't necessarily a good thing, but let's not pretend Palmar didn't vow a lynch-all-liars policy either. Lynch-All-Liars (LAL) is a proven policy (short explanation here). There is no reason for you to lie as town, ever. There have been instances of successful lying as town, but those are normally executed by long time veterans of the game, with a very specific goal in mind. ie: do not try this at home, you will be held accountable. | ||
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IMABUNNEH
United Kingdom1062 Posts
Palmar comes across as a level headed guy. His out and out aggression and his "policies" on who needs killing are no worse than those of anyone else, and he already has some support. Obviously he's a bit of a veteran, and he seems to have more popularity among the vets than the other candidates. Not to mention that the other candidates' only counter arguments to his points are "NO YOU NEVER TRUST HIM" with no real substantiated backing. That's not good enough for me. Youngminii already drawn suspicion from people, and those include me. It was a ridiculous arbitrary statement, though I don't know if it's a scumslip. How many past games has Youngminii played? That could be a factor in that statement. Until I see a better candidate or a REAL reason to not vote for Palmar, I'm voting for him. And I encourage people to think objectively, they'll come to the same conclusion. | ||
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Pigsquirrel
United States615 Posts
As of now, BloodyC0bbler will be getting my vote. He is the only one of the candidates so far who has proposed logic, rather than "I'm good, trust me." What we need for mayor is a figurehead to organize logic as he proposed, not a "good player" that we should trust. Yes, BC's "logic" approach could be exploited by extra information from being scum, but it is not as exploitable as a "trust me, I'm good" approach. The town doesn't need a champion or hero; it needs a figurehead to organize its activities as BC proposes. Documented here for analysis reasons, ##vote BloodyC0bbler Weakness of logic approach + Show Spoiler + Assuming he carries out his logic approach through the game, some risks do arise. He proposes to determine sanity with synchronized detective checks. However, if he was scum, he would have one piece of information that we don't: The proposed target's true alignment. He could manipulate the DT's result by pointing them at scum or millers, assuming a Mafia rolecop finds a miller. However, this is far safer for town than a leader which we are supposed to blindly follow. People are proposing other candidates because they can mobilize voters and get the majority of town behind one leader. This approach is a massive liability. BC's transparency negates most of the liability of a scummy mayor. | ||
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
On November 24 2011 21:35 IMABUNNEH wrote: Obviously he's a bit of a veteran, and he seems to have more popularity among the vets than the other candidates. For the record, most of the real veterans are yet to post. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
Now, I agree, it is very important for Detectives to figure out their sanity. (please re-read the role descriptions if this confuses you). But I am not sure BloodyC0bbler's plan is bulletproof. I actually think there are several shortcomings in the plan that need to be discussed. First up, I don't have an actual plan for Detectives at the moment, so our comparison is this: "Detectives should check targets they find scummy at their own pleasure, possibly breadcrumb their results, and only start using their results actively when they have a reason to believe they know their sanity" Breadcrumbing: A Breadcrumb is a veiled reference to your own role, actions, or results. It's a form of steganography that allows you to reveal sensitive information without making it evident to everyone that you're doing so. Possible ways of breadcrumbing include casually mentioning "I think x is town" or "X looks like scum to me", there are also more complicated way of leaving breadcrumbs. It is a powerful strategy, especially if a DT gets nightkilled before he outs his results. And please be careful with what you say as a DT, because while it's important that you actively push cases in the thread, even if you don't have an investigation, you also must understand that once you die, people will re-read everything you've said, to look for your investigation results. Now I've identified a few problems with BC's plan, but I'm willing to hear out how these can be remedied. a) We don't know how many, if any, framers the mafia have. By limiting the targets to 3, all three targets could be framed. b) It's not only night 1 investigation we're wasting, but also another investigation later in the game to frame-check your day 1 results. c) Nothing stops mafia from repeatedly framing the same person. d) In a worst case scenario, BC is mafia and they can then easily set their godfather up as one of the targets, leading him to be cleared in a DT check, which is very beneficial to mafia. e) I don't understand what the point of having rolecops check this same list, the only role in the game that is exclusively mafia is the framer, and the only role in the game that is exclusively town is mad hatter. Except this is where the rolecop comes in. All rolecops will also check into this list. IF a rolecop spots a red in this list we lynch that person, medics now have a medic target to protect for further nights. In the event multiple reds are caught via this process we have night 2 vig targets as well. I just don't get it. How is a rolecop to spot a red in this list, when their role doesn't return alignment? Explain these, and I will consider getting behind your plan, but one thing is for certain, if this is implemented, the list will be selected by a common vote of some sort, not exclusively by you as the mayor. | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
Palmar Sandroba BC Decon. Any one of you would make an excellent choice for mayor. If you're town. All 4 of you scare the hell out of me if you're scum. If you would please tell us who or how you will determine who is the person you will lynch on day 1? If you are a noob please consider the fact that while each of those candidates all had an 80% (That's the percentage you're looking for Palmar) probability of rolling town the probability that one of them is scum is damn near 100%. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
Whether or not his town is stronger than his scum is irrelevant. His scum is still one of the most fearsome in the game and you shouldn't be letting him be mayor. If his town play is as strong as he says it is, he doesn't need the mayor role to be successful. He never needed it in the past, there's no reason he needs it now. No, let him be a normal townie like the rest of us townies. In the event that he is scum, he will win if he is elected mayor. There's no doubt about that. Don't risk it, or you're throwing the game. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
On November 24 2011 18:23 Palmar wrote: [*] I have played 22 games of mafia on TL prior to this one [*] In the last 7 games I have played as town, I have successfully pushed for mafia lynch on day 1 These two statements do not seem to correlate with what you have in your personal diary, Mr. Palmar. Your records show two missing games, in addendum you have been known to be related to the mafia more often than than you claim to be. Seven clean games in a row seem to be an exaggeration. So, you have either faulty records in your diary, which would almost be an insult to an avid Mafia player such as yourself, or you have deliberately manipulated your criminal records for the sake of your mayor campaign in hopes of attaining a position of power. On November 24 2011 18:23 Palmar wrote: [*] I will be running a strict Lynch-All-Liars policy (LAL) and will push hard to enforce it. With a game this big we cannot afford townies running amok with some ridiculous plans of how lying will somehow benefit town. Do not lie, you will be held accountable. The irony is beyond me. Aside from that, statements such as On November 24 2011 18:23 Palmar wrote: my town play is top notch, my scum play is pretty bad and On November 24 2011 18:23 Palmar wrote: If at any point of the game my logic doesn't hold up you should lynch me. But it won't come to that. are very... self-preserving, yet confident, almost to the excess. There are a lot of newbies in the game, not many people are expecting scum to enter the spotlight, and then throw around suspiciously bold statements such as these. Abusing naivety of the majority? You are surely pushing for success, but whose success? Your own or the town's? I'll be watching you, Spongebob. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
I must've misunderstood you youngminii. But by your logic we should not be voting any of the long-time vets into office? Syllogism, Sandroba, BloodyC0bbler, Jackal58, You, Deconduo, Myself... We all have better scumplay than the vast majority of the people in this game. Again, I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but I can't draw any other conclusion from the way you speak. We all have scary scum play, and none of us need the mayor role for anything but making sure it's in good hands, and for personal safety. I think your fear campaign is completely over the top, instead of campaigning against me, who would you want to see voted mayor? I suspect you want someone who is... bad? in that position? I'm not sure I follow you, I'm not sure I think you're town. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
It's another to say "Palmar isn't scum just because you say he is youngminii now let's vote him mayor because he's good with words" Newbies, the goal of scum is to trick you. Palmar is good at that. I'm not saying he is scum (well I personally think he is likely to be scum) but I'm saying be wary. You can't just vote anyone for mayor "just because he can lead us". Be careful with who you give power to. I'll probably vote Sandroba or something, depending on how the rest of the day goes. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
On November 24 2011 22:08 Hier wrote: @Palmar These two statements do not seem to correlate with what you have in your personal diary, Mr. Palmar. Your records show two missing games, in addendum you have been known to be related to the mafia more often than than you claim to be. Seven clean games in a row seem to be an exaggeration. So, you have either faulty records in your diary, which would almost be an insult to an avid Mafia player such as yourself, or you have deliberately manipulated your criminal records for the sake of your mayor campaign in hopes of attaining a position of power. The irony is beyond me. Aside from that, statements such as and are very... self-preserving, yet confident, almost to the excess. There are a lot of newbies in the game, not many people are expecting scum to enter the spotlight, and then throw around suspiciously bold statements such as these. Abusing naivety of the majority? You are surely pushing for success, but whose success? Your own or the town's? I'll be watching you, Spongebob. My profile does not include the two games I'm playing in at the moment, Mini Mafia X, and Steamship liquidia. They add up to 22. I think you're misunderstanding the 7 game statement. In the last 7 games I have played as town, I have successfully pushed for mafia lynch on day 1 By definition I have to ignore the games where I'm mafia or 3rd party, because you can't expect me to push mafia lynches early when it's against my win condition. The seven games I'm referring to (ignoring Pick your power: interesting, as it didn't have a day 1 vote) are: Team Mafia XLIV Swedish House Mafia Cosmic Horror Mafia Experimental Haunted Mafia Resurrection Mafia Merc Mini Mafia Mini Mafia X Also, are you accusing me of being confident? Well... erm... okay... Yes I am? | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7875 Posts
On November 24 2011 21:59 Palmar wrote: I want to discuss BloodyC0bbler's plan for the detectives. Now, I agree, it is very important for Detectives to figure out their sanity. (please re-read the role descriptions if this confuses you). But I am not sure BloodyC0bbler's plan is bulletproof. I actually think there are several shortcomings in the plan that need to be discussed. First up, I don't have an actual plan for Detectives at the moment, so our comparison is this: "Detectives should check targets they find scummy at their own pleasure, possibly breadcrumb their results, and only start using their results actively when they have a reason to believe they know their sanity" Now I've identified a few problems with BC's plan, but I'm willing to hear out how these can be remedied. a) We don't know how many, if any, framers the mafia have. By limiting the targets to 3, all three targets could be framed. b) It's not only night 1 investigation we're wasting, but also another investigation later in the game to frame-check your day 1 results. c) Nothing stops mafia from repeatedly framing the same person. d) In a worst case scenario, BC is mafia and they can then easily set their godfather up as one of the targets, leading him to be cleared in a DT check, which is very beneficial to mafia. e) I don't understand what the point of having rolecops check this same list, the only role in the game that is exclusively mafia is the framer, and the only role in the game that is exclusively town is mad hatter. I just don't get it. How is a rolecop to spot a red in this list, when their role doesn't return alignment? Explain these, and I will consider getting behind your plan, but one thing is for certain, if this is implemented, the list will be selected by a common vote of some sort, not exclusively by you as the mayor. A) you are correct all three people could theoretically be framed. However, the chances of this is extremely low. The likelyhood of 3 framers all acting in that pool are extremely unlikely. Basically because all it does is nothing. It only works if they frame 1-2 of those targets. B) Depending on the results of the check / how game progresses / where shots are made people will not have to recheck at a later date. C) if mafia keeps framing the same people to stop them from confirming the day 1 check target then dts almost have free reign to check later stages of the game whereas a mafia role has been completely locked up. Win Win situation. D) for the purposes of this, my alignment does not matter. I have already thought of that issue. E) Rolecops check into the list to spot roles like miller, potentially framer, potentially hatter. If for instance someone who is a sane dt starts crumbing player x who everyone checked day 1. If he is miller, rolecops could defend and in the worst case claim and save the persons life. It gives them the chances of being able to help confirm / deny a dt's day one check based on result. As for how rolecops spot reds? How did x behave. If you know someone flipped x role you add it to a list. You have the power to know everyones role. It gives you an edge behaviourally. Is x acting more pro town or pro mafia? Did you find a vig? awesome it means you have an idea of who links to a clue now and can damn them or save them etc.... Rolecops power operates with behavioural analysis. | ||
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7875 Posts
On November 24 2011 21:27 Palmar wrote: You can read past games. Last game I played as mafia I got lynched on day 1. Last game I played as town I lead a lynch on mafia day 1, only to be killed night 1. However, my prowess as mafia or town is always going to be up to the judgement of the individual, and cannot be solidly proven. Youngminii hasn't played with me in a long while, so while his opinion on my scum play may be valid from when we played together, that doesn't make him automatically correct now, many games later. I would think that this ought not to be basis on whether you vote me or not. Despite myself perceiving my mafia play as worse than my town play (perhaps I'm overreacting to having failed the last game or two I played as scum), it is my alignment this game that matters. And remember, pure statistics say it's 70-80% chance I'm town, so unless you have a good reason to believe I'm scum, you should trust me. So yeah, go ahead, read up on my past, it will give you a good idea on who I am and why I should be trusted. Just a little helpful tip for the newbies, because this confused the hell out of me when I started playing. We often abbreviate playernames (BloodyC0bbler is BC, youngminii is YM etc). I Will opt to quote palmars real campaign post if need be but this post will serve the exact same purpose as he mentions the same thing. Anyone who votes for anyone based on the their ability in past games is being tricked into voting for someone for flawed reasoning. Palmar can outline how he performs as red, or as town. He is telling you how he plays. He is giving you an appraisal of his own skill level. However, until you all find the time to read every one of those 22 games of his you will be unable to confirm or deny his claim. You should not vote for someone based on their performances in past games. A good player can use this to their advantage by changing their mafia style to mimic their town style at least in the short term. This would give palmar if hes red the opportunity to wreak havoc for days before he gets caught. Instead vote for him based on what he will do this game. If Palmar would be so kind as to outline his goal for this game, and ideas he has for this specific game I would be all ears to hear it. However as it stands now you are campaigning on previous experience without actively giving any of that experience back. Also, enforcing a Policy Lynch system like LAL in a game of noobies who do not realize just how bad a lie is in this game is not productive. It is good to educate them that lying is bad but until they see the downside to it we will not get them to stop. | ||
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