EPTThe Terran Help Me Thread - Page 64
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cElph
United States29 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On November 09 2011 05:49 cElph wrote: In TvZ,is CC first/ 1 Rax CC viable at all? I've been doing 1 Rax CC w/ Bunker at the Zergs natural,but it doesn't seem get a decent enough reaction a lot of the time. I've never been a fan of Gas openings,excluding TvT,and 2 Rax doesn't seem that great with my level of control. Should I just force myself to get better with 2 Rax? Most Standard Play in TvZ involves some sort of pressure before an expansion-- 2 rax in chokey maps or close spawns, and reactor hellions in more open-naturaled maps or larger maps, to prevent the zerg from droning freely. When going for a Fast Expand, you let the zerg player drone a bit more aggressively but in return you get a better economy, assuming he doesn't respond with a roach all-in or something. You still want to exert some early (pre-siegetank) pressure though. I've seen people slap down several barracks and just do a big marine attack, and other people get a quick factory and do a delayed hellion pressure. In almost all TvZ you need to pressure with either marines or hellions before your 2-base attack, or before you go for tanks. That being said, it's important to know how to execute a 2 rax and a reactor hellion expansion, so I'd recommend learning both-- they're what I use, and are used fairly often by most Terrans, from amateurs all the way up to GSL champions. 1 rax CC is viable, but don't forsake the pressure expos either :D | ||
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cElph
United States29 Posts
On November 09 2011 06:01 Blazinghand wrote: Most Standard Play in TvZ involves some sort of pressure before an expansion-- 2 rax in chokey maps or close spawns, and reactor hellions in more open-naturaled maps or larger maps, to prevent the zerg from droning freely. When going for a Fast Expand, you let the zerg player drone a bit more aggressively but in return you get a better economy, assuming he doesn't respond with a roach all-in or something. You still want to exert some early (pre-siegetank) pressure though. I've seen people slap down several barracks and just do a big marine attack, and other people get a quick factory and do a delayed hellion pressure. In almost all TvZ you need to pressure with either marines or hellions before your 2-base attack, or before you go for tanks. That being said, it's important to know how to execute a 2 rax and a reactor hellion expansion, so I'd recommend learning both-- they're what I use, and are used fairly often by most Terrans, from amateurs all the way up to GSL champions. 1 rax CC is viable, but don't forsake the pressure expos either :D With Reactored Hellions,I'm not really sure when to grab the second gas and start Tank production.I assuming around when your 3rd/4th Hellion's about to complete,then swap addons with the Barracks as soon as the 5th/6th are out? I need to find recent replays. >.< | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On November 09 2011 06:12 cElph wrote: With Reactored Hellions,I'm not really sure when to grab the second gas and start Tank production.I assuming around when your 3rd/4th Hellion's about to complete,then swap addons with the Barracks as soon as the 5th/6th are out? I need to find recent replays. >.< People make varying amounts of hellions. Some people make just 2 to clear out watchtowers before reverse swapping-- I usually make 6 before doing so, since that is enough to 1-shot a pretty large number of zerglings and take out creep tumors as they morph with ease (though this cuts marines and delays tank production). It really depends on how many marines you want, when you want to start making tanks, etc. So what I do (and this is one of many options): make 6 hellions, then reverse swap to a tech lab that the barracks made. by now you've banked up some gas, use this to make a tank. Start additional rax, tech labs for stim, get your 2nd gas, and start seige mode once you have 2 tanks up. Start taking your 3rd gas as you begin getting upgrades, shields/stim, and take your 4th gas as you make your third and tech up to medivacs during your 3 tank pressure. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 09 2011 05:26 upperbound wrote: I don't think I've ever been more confused by a replay. I was ahead in literally every possible way that one could be ahead, and yet somehow I lost. What's more, my opponent only hit my army with 1 storm in the big engagement; I dodge the rest of them and they hit his zealots and stalkers. I'm getting so frustrated by my inability to improve. I've been at plat for about 1000 ladder games and cannot improve, and many of my losses feel like this one where someone all ins me, fails, and then I still lose. I made harvesters conservatively during his push because it seemed like he was all-in. I followed the Artosis "When you're ahead, get more ahead" and took an easy gold while the toss turtled on 2 bases. I was 50 food ahead and ahead on upgrades in the final battle (even more ahead when you consider that attack upgrades are basically useless against terran) and got demolished. Like, he left the battle with 40 food in immortals and stalkers while I lost my whole 120 food army. I'm really struggling and don't know what to do to get better. When I do drills on the side for my macro, I can match the pros' supply counts at each minute but somehow it doesn't seem to translate to wins. I really don't know what to do anymore and am considering quitting the game. Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/55059 Hi, Some comments about the game : 1. Make a Marine before your Reactor; otherwise, you have no way to deny his scouting. 2. Try to scan and kill his Observer if he sees you up the ramp. 3. You start producing Vikings without scouting whether he goes Colossi or not. You should first scout what he's up to, something you can do with drops. Producing Vikings while he did not produce a single Colossus was the main reason you lost. At the 19' mark fight, if you consider the raw numbers, you will say '192 vs 147, no way I lose this' — problem is, you have 10 vikings (basically 20 useless supply), only one medivac (since producing useless Vikings prevented you from getting medivacs) and no ghosts against his immortals/hts. You went for a blind composition that happened to be ineffective because you did not scout at all what he got. Against 6 immortals and hts, you need ghosts, otherwhise you will simply lose as it happened, even if you were ahead supply-wise. | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
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BlitchizSC2
United States306 Posts
On November 09 2011 18:25 KenDM wrote: Guys, how viable is this against Colossi or even against Immortals: 3Banshees and 1 Viking. Destroy the observer with your Viking and then let the Banshees continue the carnage? I'm not sure at what time a colossus can and will be out, and at what time do Banshees with cloak arrive on the battle field? It's purely situational like in a perfect world yes but your build shouldn't hinge upon sniping an observer. Just keep working on solid mechanics and builds instead of gimmicks. | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
 http://drop.sc/55391 I was so getting used to getting annihilated by 1base all-ins that I just did the same old same old. Watched for him if he expo'd or not. Saw he did, went there with my units. He held ground. I just armied up in my main base, expanded myself, he comes checking stuff out, takes out a rax. Backs off. Expands like 3 more times. I try to drop a base and he warps in stuff. I feel it's so unfair. I have to defend my own base. I can't harass him because he can freely warp in units whenever he wants. If I'll go expand, my expo WILL die. I just got so tired of it that I quit ... It's just no fun anymore being clueless like that. At least I know how to handle Terrans and Zerg for my level, but Toss. I'm having the biggest lose streak in forever against them. I'm just more guys have this problem. They're really not that UP in lower leagues if you ask me. They're actually my most feared race and I can't do anything about it :S | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 09 2011 20:20 KenDM wrote: I just can not win against Protoss anymore my fellow Terrans http://drop.sc/55391 I was so getting used to getting annihilated by 1base all-ins that I just did the same old same old. Watched for him if he expo'd or not. Saw he did, went there with my units. He held ground. I just armied up in my main base, expanded myself, he comes checking stuff out, takes out a rax. Backs off. Expands like 3 more times. I try to drop a base and he warps in stuff. I feel it's so unfair. I have to defend my own base. I can't harass him because he can freely warp in units whenever he wants. If I'll go expand, my expo WILL die. I just got so tired of it that I quit ... It's just no fun anymore being clueless like that. At least I know how to handle Terrans and Zerg for my level, but Toss. I'm having the biggest lose streak in forever against them. I'm just more guys have this problem. They're really not that UP in lower leagues if you ask me. They're actually my most feared race and I can't do anything about it :S Hi, Your problems are : you played blindly, wasting ton of opportunities to scout what your opponent was doing (you never went in his base with your SCV, even when you saw his Stalker hitting the rock leading to his third), and your opening was unclear (4 rax before CC is way too much... you should learn things as 2 rax or 1 rax FE; by the way, one of your rax needs a Reactor). You should not hit the Nexus with the remainders of your 'attack' (which was rather weak and random, by the way) ; use this Marine and Marauder to scout his base and try to kill some probes. After you build a Factory, immediately build a Starport and a Reactor on the Factory. For some reason, you built a second Starport later yet never made more than one Medivac. You should constantly produce Medivacs if your opponent does not get Colossi. You sat the whole game fearing something that never came; since you were inactive, your opponent simply expanded all over the map and procedeed to crush you with superiory army. You cannot play with this state of mind; if you're always anticipating things 'because some of your opponents did them' instead of scouting, you will always lose when your opponent goes something else. When fast expanding, do remember that nothing forces you to immediately go your natural. If you scout your opponent going some kind of one-base all-in, you may simply stay in your base (or fly back your second Orbital if you already took your natural) while setting up defence on the ramp. Do not think that drops are always entirely negated by warp-ins. 8 Marines and one Medivac can take down several gateways units with good positionning / micro, and your opponent's Warpgates may be in cooldown. Bear in mind that even if your opponent warps units to deal with your drop, killing f. e. 4 probes and 2 zealots will be enough to be cost-efficient. You may also fly away with your drop, waiting the right moment to come back, etc. This is very annoying for your opponent as he is forced to have some units in his base to deal with your drop. | ||
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BONE
United States176 Posts
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crafjan
18 Posts
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MysteryHours
United States168 Posts
On November 10 2011 00:45 crafjan wrote: Im so mad to this new patch, i just have no chance vs Protoss when they now make mass archon zealot just got raped on last game when my ghosts didnt do shit and he had like 15 HTs to do storms was like 2 seconds fight there ;/ If you're actually looking for help and not just venting you should post the replay. | ||
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Terranoob
44 Posts
And the same for for using a 1 Rax FE vs P and Z. Thanks! | ||
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Ksquared
United States1748 Posts
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upperbound
United States2300 Posts
In TvT, I'm not a huge fan of 1 rax FE in this map pool. It makes it too hard to defend against a siege tank or bio timing and it's expensive to fight banshees. In other news, anyone have a tip on how to scout/defend this? Never seen this response to a push before and it owned me pretty hard. It's a mass roach drop into the main in response to reactor hellion expand. he just dropped right on top of my siege tanks and it was a pretty easy gg. http://drop.sc/55512 | ||
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Ksquared
United States1748 Posts
On November 10 2011 03:42 upperbound wrote: In TvP, add 2 more rax with concussive ASAP and then stim. Adding 3 rax is also viable, it delays tech but is safer against all ins. In TvT, I'm not a huge fan of 1 rax FE in this map pool. It makes it too hard to defend against a siege tank or bio timing and it's expensive to fight banshees. In other news, anyone have a tip on how to scout/defend this? Never seen this response to a push before and it owned me pretty hard. It's a mass roach drop into the main in response to reactor hellion expand. he just dropped right on top of my siege tanks and it was a pretty easy gg. http://drop.sc/55512 Oh okay. Could you recommend me another TvT opener? | ||
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horsepire
147 Posts
On November 09 2011 23:35 BONE wrote: Does anyone have a really good MECH build against Zerg? If so can you post a replay? I'm horrible at tank/marine and want to try something else. I can execute builds after watching a replay, I just can't find any good replays, so I never know when to push or what upgrades to get in what order. Thanks in advance IMHappy did a cool mech build against DRG in Code S the other day. It was the first game of the group so you can watch the VOD for free. Basically, Happy did a 1 rax expand with two quick gases and transitioned into two reactored factories for heavy hellion pressure around the 8-9 minute mark. He got a quick armory (around the same time the hellion pressure started) and got a quick +1 vehicle weapons. He then got a third factory with a tech lab, researched blue flame, and started making thors (and turrets) in case DRG went mutas. He took a quick third, around 11 minutes, while using his huge hellion ball to pressure. Once he got on three bases, he basically turtled to 200/200, then pushed with a large force of hellions, about 6 thors, and the rest of his army supply in siege tanks. He had level 3 vehicle weapons, and basically just rolled over DRG, who had tried to transition from mass roach (really bad against tanks) to ling/muta. I tried to put together a build order from the VOD last night, but I only had time to go through it once and it came out pretty rough. I don't have a lot of experience with such things. Anyone have a good BO for the Happy build? | ||
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BONE
United States176 Posts
On November 10 2011 03:55 horsepire wrote: IMHappy did a cool mech build against DRG in Code S the other day. It was the first game of the group so you can watch the VOD for free. Basically, Happy did a 1 rax expand with two quick gases and transitioned into two reactored factories for heavy hellion pressure around the 8-9 minute mark. He got a quick armory (around the same time the hellion pressure started) and got a quick +1 vehicle weapons. He then got a third factory with a tech lab, researched blue flame, and started making thors (and turrets) in case DRG went mutas. He took a quick third, around 11 minutes, while using his huge hellion ball to pressure. Once he got on three bases, he basically turtled to 200/200, then pushed with a large force of hellions, about 6 thors, and the rest of his army supply in siege tanks. He had level 3 vehicle weapons, and basically just rolled over DRG, who had tried to transition from mass roach (really bad against tanks) to ling/muta. I tried to put together a build order from the VOD last night, but I only had time to go through it once and it came out pretty rough. I don't have a lot of experience with such things. Anyone have a good BO for the Happy build? Yeah my problem with Mech is normally dieing to Mass Roach, probably because I go heavy on the thors and light on the tanks. I think if I went less thors and more tanks I'd be alright. I'd love to see a replay or a BO if you have a link, thanks | ||
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horsepire
147 Posts
Yeah my problem with Mech is normally dieing to Mass Roach, probably because I go heavy on the thors and light on the tanks. I think if I went less thors and more tanks I'd be alright. I'd love to see a replay or a BO if you have a link, thanks Here's the link. The map is Dual Sight, which has pretty long rush distances. Obviously, that makes it a lot easier to scout and prepare for any kind of heavy roach play, which would be a lot more dangerous on a smaller map if you're going double reactor hellions. But once you get a good mass of hellions out, you can trade cost effectively with small groups of roaches, and since roaches are so slow, zerg can't really move out, or else you can move in and roast all his drones. + Show Spoiler + http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors7/vod/66498 | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On November 09 2011 18:32 BlitchizSC2 wrote: It's purely situational like in a perfect world yes but your build shouldn't hinge upon sniping an observer. Just keep working on solid mechanics and builds instead of gimmicks. Trying to snipe the observer then relying on cloak to win is unlikely and difficult-- best case scenario, the protoss player retreats and comes back with 2 observers, and worst case scenario he already has a 2nd observer and presses on. That doesn't mean banshees aren't viable in TvP against colossus, though. They have better DPS than vikings, and some builds, such as Synystyr's TvP Anti Colossus Build (here), focus on building banshees instead of vikings to combat colossi-- there's no danger of overmaking them and being unable to fight other units. I've seen skilled players like Debo use this sort of tactic as well. Don't rely on sniping the observer to keep cloak banshees alive though. You'll lose more than you win this way. | ||
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