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fanvadmeck
Sweden112 Posts
On September 22 2011 01:12 Avan wrote: LiquidHero and JYP are Aiur's last hope. All the other guys you've mentioned are poor players if compared to them. Sage-- I mean come on! | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
DB has admitted on several occasions that Yes, Terran is too fucking good and too complete due to design flaws. The most recent I've seen was in an August interview with Gamespot: DB: There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, "I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good." (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard. I've been saying this since the beta (not here mind you, for any smart asses who notice this account hasn't been here since early 2010 and wish to reply, though I have been reading on TL since 2005 or 2006), but the game, especially in regards to units, is designed poorly. Terran is perfection. Protoss is "protect the Tier 3 package or you get roflstomped by someone 5x worse than you" and Zerg is in between. It won't be until HOTS that with the removal and addition of units the game will become reasonably balanced, but that's assuming Blizzard doesn't screw up. Zealots had 8x2 in BW FYI. nope.avi There was no x2 nonsense in BW. Zealots did a straight up 16 damage per attack. Did you play BW? | ||
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RisingTide
Australia769 Posts
On September 22 2011 05:21 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: nope.avi There was no x2 nonsense in BW. Zealots did a straight up 16 damage per attack. Did you play BW? I pretty much agree with you in this thread, but here, you're wrong. Zealot | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
Terrans are actually the most complete race right now, as many people have pointed out before me, Terrans where probably the most focused upon because of the campaign and you can see it in the unit round up. There was also this one time that Artosis and Tasteless where talking and the discussion ended up like, "if you could add a unit or a change to zerg, what would it be?", "what about protoss?". When they ended up talking about terran they couldn't find anything that terrans actually need, the race is that complete. The thing is though, once HoS and LoV hit retail the zerg and protoss will get a lot of polish and a ton of new strengths and abilities, nerfing terran now just to buff them in 1 year's time seems like an awful waste of time. Still though, I feel like some core problems should still be addressed, like the fact that GW units are especially held back because of Warp tech, the problem that EMP can counter protoss too easily and snipe can counter some zerg too easy and that fungal is still very strong vs protoss. So basically, the rock<-paper<-scissors of the game atm is kind of broken because of the fact that, terrans have ghosts that atm counter infestors and HT, protoss and zerg have nothing to effectively counter ghosts, yet. That certain something might be a unit in the next expansion. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
Ninja edit: Well, this was the case a few days ago :D | ||
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Sabu113
United States11035 Posts
On September 22 2011 04:31 willyallthewei wrote: This is what I would like as a toss player: hehehe  !??!?!?! I never noticed this before but there's a reaver in the last slide (5 sec before the end) The model exists! | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 22 2011 05:51 zmansman17 wrote: Toss is on its way back. If you look at the Korean ladder's top 12, there are only 2 more Terrans than there are Protoss's. I think it is far too soon for anyone to cry imbalance or lose hope. Wow you must be very strongly versed in Statistics. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On September 22 2011 05:44 RisingTide wrote: I pretty much agree with you in this thread, but here, you're wrong. Zealot "The Zealot is the Protoss first tier melee unit. The Zealot's movement speed can be increased through the Leg Enhancements upgrade via Citadel of Adun. Each Zealot attack consists of 2 separate hits. Consequently they deal 2x 8 damage (or 2x 9 damage after +1 upgrade). This is important for damage calculations, because armor reduction is applied to each hit separately. " From the same place you linked to xD | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On September 22 2011 05:44 RisingTide wrote: I pretty much agree with you in this thread, but here, you're wrong. Zealot Woah, thanks for that. My brain asploded. I never realized that the Zealots did that, but I did mostly play Terran in BW so meh :S. I was so committed that the x2 stuff didn't exist in BW and that was Ownos possibly getting stuff confused with SC2, but woah I was wrong D:. My bad | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
On September 22 2011 05:47 Destructicon wrote: What really bothers me is that, fear buffing the protoss and zerg races now and/or nerfing terrans will be futile and a waste of time in the long run because. Terrans are actually the most complete race right now, as many people have pointed out before me, Terrans where probably the most focused upon because of the campaign and you can see it in the unit round up. There was also this one time that Artosis and Tasteless where talking and the discussion ended up like, "if you could add a unit or a change to zerg, what would it be?", "what about protoss?". When they ended up talking about terran they couldn't find anything that terrans actually need, the race is that complete. The thing is though, once HoS and LoV hit retail the zerg and protoss will get a lot of polish and a ton of new strengths and abilities, nerfing terran now just to buff them in 1 year's time seems like an awful waste of time. Still though, I feel like some core problems should still be addressed, like the fact that GW units are especially held back because of Warp tech, the problem that EMP can counter protoss too easily and snipe can counter some zerg too easy and that fungal is still very strong vs protoss. So basically, the rock<-paper<-scissors of the game atm is kind of broken because of the fact that, terrans have ghosts that atm counter infestors and HT, protoss and zerg have nothing to effectively counter ghosts, yet. That certain something might be a unit in the next expansion. I really wish that this information had been made more clear when I started the game. I feel like I wasted a year with a race that won't really be ready for prime-time for another 2-3 years. I'm trying to play a game here, not train for the Olympics. I would have worked with the race that was complete if I'd known that there was such a discrepancy. Now I'm just inclined to check back a few months after the final expansion is released and see whether or not the game turned out to be worth playing. You know with SC1, the Broodwar expansion was released in the same years as the basic game? By dragging out the expansion timetable for SC2 they just make me feel uninterested in the game. I want to play the finished, polished end-product, not the work-in-progress. SC2 beta never ended and won't for years to come. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
While hero or JYP or Sage may be very talented and skilled, I won't believe any of them could potentially beat any of the top players of the other races. I can barely fathom the likes of Nestea, Losira, MVP, Bomber or Polt losing a BoX to a Protoss. They may score some wins against middle of the pack players, like + Show Spoiler + HuK beating Zenio hero still got absolutely demolished by LosirA in the MLG Global Invitational I really don't see any way of solving the current Protoss problems without some kind of substantial change. Tweaking build times and attack ranges isn't going to cut it, in my opinion. For example, something like Terrans not being able to lift CCs, while really drastic, would probably just make the game better in general. Or, from a different angle, no peripheral change is going to help a Protoss pressure a Zerg third without being all-in. The units are simply not there. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
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galivet
288 Posts
On September 22 2011 06:38 Treemonkeys wrote: I think wolf or doa said it best in that protoss has not really had to innovate very much in SC2 yet, that is what it seems like to me as well. Zerg and terran have both gone through much more meta game changes than protoss simply because it has taking this long for protoss timing pushes to finally be consistently shut down in high level play. It's up to protoss players to develop more consistent play styles and a patch (like the one we just got) will help. Maybe another patch is needed but personally I'm really curious to see where jyp, sase, and huk will be a month or two from now. What's the big innovation that pro terrans have demonstrated in TvP again? Their best timing push (1/1/1 marine/tank/banshee) is from the beta, and MMMVG is from beta too. Please, spell out exactly what the terran innovations versus protoss have been since beta. The few innovative protoss plays I know of were nerfed into obscurity almost as soon as they gained popularity (voidray nerfs, removal of KA, etc...). Blizzard has railroaded protoss down a set path in PvT via the application of nerfs to alternative tech routes protoss could choose. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On September 22 2011 06:43 galivet wrote: What's the big innovation that pro terrans have demonstrated in TvP again? Their best timing push (1/1/1 marine/tank/banshee) is from the beta, and MMMVG is from beta too. Please, spell out exactly what the terran innovations versus protoss have been since beta. Terran are drastically less reliant on all ins and timing pushes now than they were in the beta. 1/1/1 may be OP but for some reason it is still not really used often in GSL. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 22 2011 06:38 Treemonkeys wrote: I think wolf or doa said it best in that protoss has not really had to innovate very much in SC2 yet, that is what it seems like to me as well. Zerg and terran have both gone through much more meta game changes than protoss simply because it has taking this long for protoss timing pushes to finally be consistently shut down in high level play. It's up to protoss players to develop more consistent play styles and a patch (like the one we just got) will help. Maybe another patch is needed but personally I'm really curious to see where jyp, sase, and huk will be a month or two from now. I'm not sure why people throw HuK in with the "Protoss Innovators." JYP / Sage / Hero, yes they are all very advanced in their strategies and are pushing the current Protoss metagame to its limit. HuK? Not so much. He often plays very standard strategies with maybe a few risks that he protects with excellent unit control. | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
On September 22 2011 06:46 Treemonkeys wrote: Terran are drastically less reliant on all ins and timing pushes now than they were in the beta. 1/1/1 may be OP but for some reason it is still not really used often in GSL. I'm not sure you've been watching the GSL lately. Most of the TvPs in the current season have revolved around a 1-base timing push by the terran, and in several cases it's been 1/1/1. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 22 2011 06:38 Treemonkeys wrote: I think wolf or doa said it best in that protoss has not really had to innovate very much in SC2 yet, that is what it seems like to me as well. Zerg and terran have both gone through much more meta game changes than protoss simply because it has taking this long for protoss timing pushes to finally be consistently shut down in high level play. It's up to protoss players to develop more consistent play styles and a patch (like the one we just got) will help. Maybe another patch is needed but personally I'm really curious to see where jyp, sase, and huk will be a month or two from now. Yeah man, curse that sick Terran innovation, it only took them a year to figure out Ghosts and Hellions were good! At this rate, maybe they'll start building Ravens against Baneling bombs and DTs before HotS comes out! It should be pointed out that Wolf's solution to the 1/1/1 (1 base Colossus rofl) is the only one that nobody ever tried in a televised game, that's how wrong it is. On one hand, it's really frustrating to hear various commentators effectively insult the skill and hard work of Protoss players by making these types of general statements. On the other, they will occasionally make fools out of themselves in a spectacular manner, like yesterday with Artosis' analysis of Puzzle vs Bomber, or today with Huk vs Virus g1. I sometimes wonder if they themselves even notice this. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 22 2011 06:46 Treemonkeys wrote: Terran are drastically less reliant on all ins and timing pushes now than they were in the beta. 1/1/1 may be OP but for some reason it is still not really used often in GSL. The "THREAT" of 1-1-1 is as bad as the 1-1-1 itself. It requires a very specific counter that is both inefficient and even risky vs other styles of play that are not 1-1-1. If you see Puzzle vs Bomber, then you'll see what I mean. Puzzle blindly counters 1-1-1, Bomber takes an expansion and gets insanely far ahead. If you followed the discussion threads regarding the coin toss situation of going 1 Gate FE or 15 Nexus to counter 1-1-1 but die to many other things, you would be aware of this. 1-1-1 is still being used, as a metagaming strategy. No Korean Protoss goes into a match confident that they will not get 1-1-1'd. Terrans exploit this. | ||
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Coal
Sweden1535 Posts
On September 22 2011 05:52 Sabu113 wrote: !??!?!?! I never noticed this before but there's a reaver in the last slide (5 sec before the end) The model exists! Awesome to see that the Reaver model is actually there :D And the phase cannon thing didn't look to dumb... but man was the units/buildings odd looking in the beta/alpha or what?! Everything looked so big and clumpsy | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
On September 22 2011 06:50 Toadvine wrote: Yeah man, curse that sick Terran innovation, it only took them a year to figure out Ghosts and Hellions were good! At this rate, maybe they'll start building Ravens against Baneling bombs and DTs before HotS comes out! It should be pointed out that Wolf's solution to the 1/1/1 (1 base Colossus rofl) is the only one that nobody ever tried in a televised game, that's how wrong it is. On one hand, it's really frustrating to hear various commentators effectively insult the skill and hard work of Protoss players by making these types of general statements. On the other, they will occasionally make fools out of themselves in a spectacular manner, like yesterday with Artosis' analysis of Puzzle vs Bomber, or today with Huk vs Virus g1. I sometimes wonder if they themselves even notice this. They can't just come out and call imba on the air because that would reveal that they know that the emperor has no clothes. In the interest of keeping e-sports alive and continuing to earn a paycheck they have to represent that the matches are fair and competitive and the winner is always the best player. You can tell though that they're running out of excuses and it's getting harder for them to feel any sense of drama or suspense about the matches. I feel like the GSL matches are getting even more stale and predictable for the commentators than they are for the regular viewers. It's bad when people who are basically professional SC2 promoters can't get excited about the highest level of SC2 play. | ||
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