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On September 21 2011 06:14 kubiks wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 04:40 Klystron wrote:On September 21 2011 04:35 QTIP. wrote:On September 21 2011 04:28 Klystron wrote:On September 21 2011 04:07 Destructicon wrote:
Klystron, you have a very simplistic view on unit compositions.
The critical thing you forgot and the most important thing is gas cost and gas income.
You have to understand that, some unit compositions are either impossible or ridiculously hard to achieve because of gas income. For example, a Immortal, Phoenx/Void Ray comp would be nearly impossible to execute because it costs a ton of gas, each unit being 100 G, also the comp is flawed because of the huge G cost it is nearly impossible to get sentries and HT into the fray, and you need 6 to 10 sentries.
To even have a small chance to make it work you need to do it of 2 bases at least and hope that the enemy doesn't harass you.
And when the fight finally starts, zealots still get kited to hell by MM balls, the entire Protoss force still gets EMPed which makes the immortals squishy, the phoenix useless and the zealots easy to snipe. On September 21 2011 04:08 Ownos wrote:
I don't need math to know that zealot/phoenix isn't going to work. But you're telling me to rely on faith that there is some magic combo out there that will be the savior of us all? That's quite a reach. Maybe protoss hasn't exhausted all possibilities, but it's clear you have exhausted all good arguments when you're telling me this.
I never said that all unit compositions were useful or easy to pull off. I am trying to show you how silly the statement 'protoss can't innovate' is. As I said before there are many many many variables in sc2, far more than just unit composition. Unit composition does play a big role, and just changing the unit composition is one way of innovating, but not the only one. Timings, chronoboost, resource allocation, positioning, and how units are used within a given composition are all huge factors in sc2. Hell spanishiwa was considered a huge zerg innovator when he decided not to get gas until 40 supply. Even trying to say that you have exhausted all possible unit compositions is a bit silly. Trying to say that you have tried every single unit composition, as well as changing all of the other variables is just ridiculous. You keep saying that protoss can't innovate because protoss players are so far ahead of the curve that they have already completely figured the game out. SC2 has only been out for a year, BW was out for half a decade before people began to come anywhere close to figuring it out. Klystron may have used poor examples to back up his premise, but if he is simply saying that the claim: "All Protoss permutations in unit compositons, strategies have been explored etc." is false, then you can't really argue with him. Same goes for Zerg when they were considered the weakest. It's arguing a meaningless point. Thank you Oh and the formula I used for counting unit combinations was n!/(k!*(n-k)!). Which means that I am not counting repeating combos, and ordering does not matter. You know that you were just calculating the number of subset of a set of 13 elements ? The answer is just 2^13, no need to use the other fomulas (btw sum(k=1...k=n, n!/(k!*(n-k)!)=2^n). But anyawya the problem for protoss is not really the lategame army composition (a mix of vr, mothership, collosus and ht vs zerg is quite OP) but how to reach it without beeing destroyed by the zerg. And this add a lot of constraints (like for example not die on roach/ling all-in) and requirements (like expand as fast as possible), that hugely limits the options.
I used the other notation because I thought it would be useful to see the number of 2,3,...n unit compositions independently.
Anyway I understand that it is not a lategame army composition. I chose unit composition as my example because it was easy to quantify the number of possible unit compositions. Quantifying other variables such as timings, when/what to chrono, scouting intel, etc.. is extremely difficult. The unit composition example was just a quick way to demonstrate that there are a lot of options in this game, and that there is no way that we have explored them all in a year.
Say your matchup is pvz, and you want to find the optimal strategy to survive a roach ling all in, and have the best possible economy after the all in. The fastest way that you could solve that optimization problem is to build a simulation that would play billions of games in which the ultimate goal is that one unit comp. Every game would have a small variation from the last game, exploring all of the options from when to expand to whether your 4th pylon should be placed on 30 supply or 31. Every iteration you pick the best combination of moves and then randomly change some. You do this over and over for billions of games until no small variations on the best strategy make it better. And even then, you have come up with 1 optimal strategy for 1 map, assuming that your opponent is going to do 1 all in. In reality finding the optimal strategy for every set of counter strategies is nigh impossible. There is no way in hell that anyone has fully explored any small part of this game in just a years time.
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Just to actually address the OP, a lot of people are going to be very sad once these players go against anyone even remotely good. I'm guessing Hero and JYP can make the Up/Downs, Sage has a decent shot too if Yoda doesn't just 1/1/1 him out of the tournament.
But I'll be very surprised if any of them actually make it to Code S this season.
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On September 21 2011 07:33 Toadvine wrote:
Just to actually address the OP, a lot of people are going to be very sad once these players go against anyone even remotely good. I'm guessing Hero and JYP can make the Up/Downs, Sage has a decent shot too if Yoda doesn't just 1/1/1 him out of the tournament.
But I'll be very surprised if any of them actually make it to Code S this season.
If only they could play each other :D
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On September 21 2011 01:20 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
I will use this topic for my theses about protoss players:
General development of protoss gameplay
Protoss players are struggling hard nowadays and while there are probably balance issues involved, there is another big factor for me: protoss gameplay did not evolve a lot!
For a long time protoss kept winning just by 4gating
For a long time protoss kept winning just by waiting for the deathball in PvZ
For a long time protoss kept winning just by warping in templars with 75 energy in PvT
Now it's not possible anymore and protoss have to develop their gameplay... they kept using the same BO over and over and won a lot of games and that is why their skill level got kinda stuck on some level....
just have a look at zerg when they struggled in ZvP: they did a LOT of new stuff, developed new strategies and refined their builds ... that is what protoss has to do now
Silly mistakes
protoss in GSL make SO many mistakes, it is painful to watch... i refuse to admit balance reasons when they just throw away so many units and battles... just watch genius/hongun last season or naniwa donating colossus, MC donating units after units, BAD engagements and tassadar ... OMG
Protoss progamers are just not as good as the others ..they need to stay more focused
Ling runbys are another topic: protoss players kept losing to ling runbys.. try that on EU master level, protoss players have better walls and actually warp in units to close the gaps to prevent lings from running by... unbelievable but true
PvZ
It is always like this: protoss goes ffe, does some silly 2gate attack ......and that's it
no game plans, just 2 base allins all the time
are they so afraid of playing macro games?!
evrytime i see huk playing a lategame pvz, it shows that protoss is REALLY strong in the lategame
While there are about 4829401985 things wrong with your post, most have been covered, but regarding your opinions on innovation, I tallied this a couple of weeks ago in the strategy thread; I don't know how it has changed now but here were the numbers I found:
I looked through the 75 most recent [G] threads and discovered:
8 PvP
9 PvZ
12 PvT
6 PvX
That's already 35/75, so about 50%
6 TvT
8 TvZ
5 TvP
5 TvX
So less innovation in every matchup, but not an embarrassing amount, now Zerg:
5 ZvZ
3 ZvP
3 ZvT
5 ZvX
...
Don't talk about innovation like zerg players are so brilliant when what really happened was that you got buffed and we got nerfed. Hell, you always had things like bling bombs which were more cost efficient than roach/hydra/corruptor and you didn't use them. Why don't you go read what Mana recently said on the matter (because he actually is in a position to talk)?
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On September 21 2011 09:14 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 01:20 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
I will use this topic for my theses about protoss players:
General development of protoss gameplay
Protoss players are struggling hard nowadays and while there are probably balance issues involved, there is another big factor for me: protoss gameplay did not evolve a lot!
For a long time protoss kept winning just by 4gating
For a long time protoss kept winning just by waiting for the deathball in PvZ
For a long time protoss kept winning just by warping in templars with 75 energy in PvT
Now it's not possible anymore and protoss have to develop their gameplay... they kept using the same BO over and over and won a lot of games and that is why their skill level got kinda stuck on some level....
just have a look at zerg when they struggled in ZvP: they did a LOT of new stuff, developed new strategies and refined their builds ... that is what protoss has to do now
Silly mistakes
protoss in GSL make SO many mistakes, it is painful to watch... i refuse to admit balance reasons when they just throw away so many units and battles... just watch genius/hongun last season or naniwa donating colossus, MC donating units after units, BAD engagements and tassadar ... OMG
Protoss progamers are just not as good as the others ..they need to stay more focused
Ling runbys are another topic: protoss players kept losing to ling runbys.. try that on EU master level, protoss players have better walls and actually warp in units to close the gaps to prevent lings from running by... unbelievable but true
PvZ
It is always like this: protoss goes ffe, does some silly 2gate attack ......and that's it
no game plans, just 2 base allins all the time
are they so afraid of playing macro games?!
evrytime i see huk playing a lategame pvz, it shows that protoss is REALLY strong in the lategame
While there are about 4829401985 things wrong with your post, most have been covered, but regarding your opinions on innovation, I tallied this a couple of weeks ago in the strategy thread; I don't know how it has changed now but here were the numbers I found: I looked through the 75 most recent [G] threads and discovered: 8 PvP 9 PvZ 12 PvT 6 PvX That's already 35/75, so about 50% 6 TvT 8 TvZ 5 TvP 5 TvX So less innovation in every matchup, but not an embarrassing amount, now Zerg: 5 ZvZ 3 ZvP 3 ZvT 5 ZvX ... Don't talk about innovation like zerg players are so brilliant when what really happened was that you got buffed and we got nerfed. Hell, you always had things like bling bombs which were more cost efficient than roach/hydra/corruptor and you didn't use them. Why don't you go read what Mana recently said on the matter (because he actually is in a position to talk)?
It's true ... it's also proven too ... aka, mathematically and decision tree proven. When Zerg was complaining about Protoss' deathball, literally infestors were ridiculously untouched ... And it's completely true.
If you tried to grep the output files of all the replays, barely anyone on sc2replays tried infestors or ling bombs.
As for toss though, collosus did kill and termplars were good, but they were always being used. The only units that were practically never used were carriers and motherships.
Don't believe me? Take a random selection of 100 replay files of post-roach 4-range and pre-tmplar. Output the text of stats and grep for units used. Infestors were simply not even used very much =/
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On September 21 2011 09:24 ScythedBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 09:14 Darclite wrote:On September 21 2011 01:20 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
I will use this topic for my theses about protoss players:
General development of protoss gameplay
Protoss players are struggling hard nowadays and while there are probably balance issues involved, there is another big factor for me: protoss gameplay did not evolve a lot!
For a long time protoss kept winning just by 4gating
For a long time protoss kept winning just by waiting for the deathball in PvZ
For a long time protoss kept winning just by warping in templars with 75 energy in PvT
Now it's not possible anymore and protoss have to develop their gameplay... they kept using the same BO over and over and won a lot of games and that is why their skill level got kinda stuck on some level....
just have a look at zerg when they struggled in ZvP: they did a LOT of new stuff, developed new strategies and refined their builds ... that is what protoss has to do now
Silly mistakes
protoss in GSL make SO many mistakes, it is painful to watch... i refuse to admit balance reasons when they just throw away so many units and battles... just watch genius/hongun last season or naniwa donating colossus, MC donating units after units, BAD engagements and tassadar ... OMG
Protoss progamers are just not as good as the others ..they need to stay more focused
Ling runbys are another topic: protoss players kept losing to ling runbys.. try that on EU master level, protoss players have better walls and actually warp in units to close the gaps to prevent lings from running by... unbelievable but true
PvZ
It is always like this: protoss goes ffe, does some silly 2gate attack ......and that's it
no game plans, just 2 base allins all the time
are they so afraid of playing macro games?!
evrytime i see huk playing a lategame pvz, it shows that protoss is REALLY strong in the lategame
While there are about 4829401985 things wrong with your post, most have been covered, but regarding your opinions on innovation, I tallied this a couple of weeks ago in the strategy thread; I don't know how it has changed now but here were the numbers I found: I looked through the 75 most recent [G] threads and discovered: 8 PvP 9 PvZ 12 PvT 6 PvX That's already 35/75, so about 50% 6 TvT 8 TvZ 5 TvP 5 TvX So less innovation in every matchup, but not an embarrassing amount, now Zerg: 5 ZvZ 3 ZvP 3 ZvT 5 ZvX ... Don't talk about innovation like zerg players are so brilliant when what really happened was that you got buffed and we got nerfed. Hell, you always had things like bling bombs which were more cost efficient than roach/hydra/corruptor and you didn't use them. Why don't you go read what Mana recently said on the matter (because he actually is in a position to talk)? It's true ... it's also proven too ... aka, mathematically and decision tree proven. When Zerg was complaining about Protoss' deathball, literally infestors were ridiculously untouched ... And it's completely true. If you tried to grep the output files of all the replays, barely anyone on sc2replays tried infestors or ling bombs. As for toss though, collosus did kill and termplars were good, but they were always being used. The only units that were practically never used were carriers and motherships. Don't believe me? Take a random selection of 100 replay files of post-roach 4-range and pre-tmplar. Output the text of stats and grep for units used. Infestors were simply not even used very much =/
Agree
some Z and T players in here just wanted to defend their races.
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It's pretty clear that PvZ is fairly balanced (if anything slightly more favored of Z) at the pro level (GSL, MLG, etc...) Go watch any of the past 2 tournyes and you will see no Protoss's beating Terran and slightly more Zs beating Ps (Due to metagame imo not balance).
*EMP should Only take off energy, keep it at 75 energy and no upgrade and decrease the range a bit. Ghost still have Snipe which out ranges HT's feedback. If EMP continues to wipe out shields (counter every Protoss unit by starting the entire P army with half health) then it needs to have a range reduction, cost 125+ energy, and become an upgrade. Against Protoss it is the single strongest spell in the game as it allows one unit to counter every Protoss Unit and Strategy. This is beyond me why this hasn't been dealt with a long time, but now it will have to be or Protoss will be extinct in high level tourneys. Just my 2 cents, GL all hopefully we can some balance restored to the PvT matchup
Edit: Also for the overall future of SC2 as an esport please realize balancing this matchup is bigger than Terran players being able to roll Protoss every game in ladder (so please don't blindly defend your race with all Protoss suck and such.)
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Canada13389 Posts
I for one am OK if protoss becomes a moot race in any high level tournament. The reason being that it will force one of 2 scenarios:
1) Players buckle down and get really really good
2) Blizzard decides that protoss isnt really that viable anymore and we get a "Protoss Patch"
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Guys, guys, please stop crying. Protoss always has Day9's sympathies. That should be enough.
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On September 21 2011 11:44 ZeromuS wrote:
I for one am OK if protoss becomes a moot race in any high level tournament. The reason being that it will force one of 2 scenarios:
1) Players buckle down and get really really good
2) Blizzard decides that protoss isnt really that viable anymore and we get a "Protoss Patch"
At the moment, The game is no fun though. Hard to get good when you are constantly losing to less skilled players :/ (Thats how I feel atleast)
BTW: Before you guys Theory Craft, Could you please post your league.. It would help your arguments.
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Why don't you go read what Mana recently said on the matter (because he actually is in a position to talk)?
Can I have a link to what Mana said?
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no honorable mention for socke and hasuobs? 
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On September 21 2011 12:27 TBone- wrote:no honorable mention for socke and hasuobs?
There's a reason why all those mentioned are participating in the gsl.
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On September 20 2011 13:06 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 11:37 Arisen wrote:On September 20 2011 11:16 tuho12345 wrote:On September 20 2011 09:49 Arisen wrote:On September 20 2011 09:32 Jinivus wrote:
I haven't watched them do that vs any good ZvPers. Well they have. Like I said, fucking combat-ex does it and he's horrible And seriously Idra is just horrible at vP so why you are citing his game in reference to what would work vs a top zerg is beyond me. IdrA loses a lot of games versus protoss because he lets them get 3 bases up with colossus/HT. It doesn't matter who you are, as a zerg you lose at that point unless the protoss fucks up. IdrA, however, has great unit control. Are you telling me that because it was idra playing that fucking infestor hydralisk shouldn't be able to beat just blink stalkers? Get the fuck out of here Stop telling us to fucking use carriers we want GSL protoss to be able to beat good people... I'm not telling you to use carriers. I'm telling you that SaSe who is a GSL protoss uses carriers and wins games with them versus good people That bold part is fucking bullshit. What's wrong with 3 bases protoss? There're thousands of Protoss has more than 5 bases and still lose to Zerg? Why? cuz infestor is too good for everything. Who need to make any other units than infestors if they have enough money anyway? Don't even bring IdrA in any discussion about balance, you knew that's all about whining and has zero ground to even bother to look at it. Link me the games where protoss isn't playing like shit and gets on 3-4 base in a decent position and loses to a zerg. What's wrong with 3 base protoss? Well, you see, protoss units are much more cost effective than zerg units. As zerg has weak air supperiority fighters (corrupters) so it has a hard time dealing with colossus, which destroys everyting extremely quickly on the ground. The only units that have enough armor/health to survive versus colossus, the roach and the ultralisk, are very poor at dealing with a developed protoss army of stalker/colossus. Infestors evened the playing field somewhat, but due to the high range of the protoss army and the blink mechanic, infestors are quickly sniped late game. Add in HT, Mothership and void rays and the ball gets even stronger. Also, the zergs cool "hook" is supposed to be how fast they replenish; however, due to the WG mechanic, you can sit on a 200/200 army with protoss and in 5 seconds have as many stalkers as you have gateways (a lot), actually much faster than a zerg; the 300 food push is actually stronger/faster for protoss. As a result, the zerg has to have a significant advantage going into late game or will pretty much die very easily to the protoss ball (for a long while some top protoss players didn't practice PvZ because they felt it was impossible to lose unless they did something stupid). The infestor is definitely strong midgame, but it has to be. If it isn't, zerg is left with a less powerful midgame than protoss and still gets dominated lategame. IdrA has a higher win rate vs Protoss recently than he does with Terran believe it or not. And that's with playing MC and Hero. He loses to a lot of random Terrans. He never loses to a random Protoss.
ColCruncher mean anything to you? lol
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On September 21 2011 11:37 Miller wrote:
It's pretty clear that PvZ is fairly balanced (if anything slightly more favored of Z) at the pro level (GSL, MLG, etc...) Go watch any of the past 2 tournyes and you will see no Protoss's beating Terran and slightly more Zs beating Ps (Due to metagame imo not balance).
*EMP should Only take off energy, keep it at 75 energy and no upgrade and decrease the range a bit. Ghost still have Snipe which out ranges HT's feedback. If EMP continues to wipe out shields (counter every Protoss unit by starting the entire P army with half health) then it needs to have a range reduction, cost 125+ energy, and become an upgrade. Against Protoss it is the single strongest spell in the game as it allows one unit to counter every Protoss Unit and Strategy. This is beyond me why this hasn't been dealt with a long time, but now it will have to be or Protoss will be extinct in high level tourneys. Just my 2 cents, GL all hopefully we can some balance restored to the PvT matchup
Edit: Also for the overall future of SC2 as an esport please realize balancing this matchup is bigger than Terran players being able to roll Protoss every game in ladder (so please don't blindly defend your race with all Protoss suck and such.)
I'd rather EMP either be moved to the Raven or if EMP costs 125+ mana, then Storm costs 100+ and Fungal costs 125+.
Hell, I'd be fine with losing EMP altogether and having 250mm Cannon Strike back to a cooldown based ability and putting the range at 8.
I don't feel like everything from Terran and Protoss has been fully explored (can't really say the same about Zerg, which has been explored to hell and back).
I mean, Blizzard had to buff the Warp Prism to encourage Warp Prism play. But hey, who cares about Warp Prisms when you have a massive splash damage A-move siege unit in the Colossus instead? Storms and Colossi are really good. I don't really see Gateway units losing to Bio units because Chargelot Archon is AMAZINGLY strong. Players may not thing it, but with their durability, Zealots just TEAR through bio if left unkited. And if you do kite, you need to kite very well or else the rest of the army can still hit you while you kite the Zealots.
If I remember, Broodwar Protoss was focused heavily on Dragoons, Zealots, High Templar, some Dark Templar, the occasional Reaver, and Archons (obviously from leftover High Templar). Zerg usually responded with what? Hydras and Lurkers or Mutas and Lings right? (into Defilers and Ultras?) It feels like Protoss hasn't changed much but Zerg has changed a lot. A majority of their units are weaker but they have the Infestor with Neural Parasite and Fungal Growth, which is the thing that has been giving most Protoss players headaches... I don't know though... How much better/worse is the Stalker compared to a Dragoon?
In PvT it was the same but with more Reaver usage and Arbiters.
Terran used Tanks, Vultures, Goliaths, Science Vessels (for those damn Arbiters) and Marines in Bunkers (early game) in TvP... I recall quite a few Terrans crying that TvP is an absolute headache... (It could've just been low level whining). To be honest, Terran has gotten worse in that respect. The Hellion is good at harassing, yes, but I feel like Spider Mines gave your more safety, map control, and I also feel like Vultures were better overall in a battle. Tanks supposedly got better... But they do less per shot damage (but attack faster and have a better AI). Goliaths... Well Terran anti-air went to hell, but the ground damage I think went up significantly (at least when comparing Goliaths to Thors).
In Terran versus Zerg, they had the full mech, Bio, Bio mech timings, or the SK Terran. Marines obviously got much better... Medics are harder to get, but I'd be lying if I said they aren't better now than before. Vultures are good, but in this matchup Hellions are significantly better (even with the recent nerf, since you still roast Zerglings). Goliaths are much better than Thors (since they're cheaper and can actually fight Mutalisks decently even if they're spread out, which Thors can't do). Siege Tanks... Weaker vs Hydras (since you don't take nearly all of the Hydra's HP off and have the Marines finish it off), better overall... The Science Vessel was a hell of a lot better...
I feel like Robotics tech Protoss is better (except for harass, where Reavers just RAPED), otherwise not too much has changed except that Protoss can warp units right outside or inside your base... I feel the other 2 races went to hell... Marauders have more value in TvP and Marines are actually somewhat usable in the matchup, but I feel the reason for using them (other than that beginners suck ass at dealing with them) is the fact that Terran mech went to hell in WoL. Mech CAN work, don't get me wrong, but it's harder to pull off since it's hard to get the amount of mech units you want and you don't have Spider Mines to delay the Protoss push. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Terran Anti-air, again, went to hell. Against a passive Protoss, maybe it could work since the Terran would have more time to be safe to macro up and be a little greedier with their tech...
I'm really hoping the expansion will fix all of this, reintroduce a bunch of good, solid, all around units instead of these crazy amount of special situation units.
I just think every race needs to be reworked... Lots of nerfs and buffs are in order in addition to remakes...
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On September 21 2011 11:37 Miller wrote:
It's pretty clear that PvZ is fairly balanced (if anything slightly more favored of Z) at the pro level (GSL, MLG, etc...) Go watch any of the past 2 tournyes and you will see no Protoss's beating Terran and slightly more Zs beating Ps (Due to metagame imo not balance).
PvZ winrate in recent GSL was worse than PvT though...
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On September 20 2011 08:35 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:30 Arisen wrote:On September 20 2011 08:11 Ghola wrote:
Mc hasn't been doing that coin flippy bullshit since season 3 Yes, he has. I see him DT, 2 star, really unsafe early expands, etc. He still does all that stupid shit he's been doing, he's just not winning now. Oh no! He build DT's one game and did a 1 gate expo LEARN TO PLAY SAFE MC!!. MVP does tons of risky bunker rushes, cheese, 1 base all in vs huk, but you revere him why? BECAUSE TERRAN ALL INS DON'T SUCK.
Yep, that's really it. Anybody calling MC an unsafe cheeser is just being blind to the way the game is designed. Something needs to happen... and something before HotS certainly.
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I think Sage is looking pretty good so far!
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no protoss for round of 16 just to show the imbalance. Marauders not being able to stim would really be a good change or Terran has to pick concussive or stim. not both.
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On September 21 2011 15:14 RyLai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 13:06 K3Nyy wrote:On September 20 2011 11:37 Arisen wrote:On September 20 2011 11:16 tuho12345 wrote:On September 20 2011 09:49 Arisen wrote:On September 20 2011 09:32 Jinivus wrote:
I haven't watched them do that vs any good ZvPers. Well they have. Like I said, fucking combat-ex does it and he's horrible And seriously Idra is just horrible at vP so why you are citing his game in reference to what would work vs a top zerg is beyond me. IdrA loses a lot of games versus protoss because he lets them get 3 bases up with colossus/HT. It doesn't matter who you are, as a zerg you lose at that point unless the protoss fucks up. IdrA, however, has great unit control. Are you telling me that because it was idra playing that fucking infestor hydralisk shouldn't be able to beat just blink stalkers? Get the fuck out of here Stop telling us to fucking use carriers we want GSL protoss to be able to beat good people... I'm not telling you to use carriers. I'm telling you that SaSe who is a GSL protoss uses carriers and wins games with them versus good people That bold part is fucking bullshit. What's wrong with 3 bases protoss? There're thousands of Protoss has more than 5 bases and still lose to Zerg? Why? cuz infestor is too good for everything. Who need to make any other units than infestors if they have enough money anyway? Don't even bring IdrA in any discussion about balance, you knew that's all about whining and has zero ground to even bother to look at it. Link me the games where protoss isn't playing like shit and gets on 3-4 base in a decent position and loses to a zerg. What's wrong with 3 base protoss? Well, you see, protoss units are much more cost effective than zerg units. As zerg has weak air supperiority fighters (corrupters) so it has a hard time dealing with colossus, which destroys everyting extremely quickly on the ground. The only units that have enough armor/health to survive versus colossus, the roach and the ultralisk, are very poor at dealing with a developed protoss army of stalker/colossus. Infestors evened the playing field somewhat, but due to the high range of the protoss army and the blink mechanic, infestors are quickly sniped late game. Add in HT, Mothership and void rays and the ball gets even stronger. Also, the zergs cool "hook" is supposed to be how fast they replenish; however, due to the WG mechanic, you can sit on a 200/200 army with protoss and in 5 seconds have as many stalkers as you have gateways (a lot), actually much faster than a zerg; the 300 food push is actually stronger/faster for protoss. As a result, the zerg has to have a significant advantage going into late game or will pretty much die very easily to the protoss ball (for a long while some top protoss players didn't practice PvZ because they felt it was impossible to lose unless they did something stupid). The infestor is definitely strong midgame, but it has to be. If it isn't, zerg is left with a less powerful midgame than protoss and still gets dominated lategame. IdrA has a higher win rate vs Protoss recently than he does with Terran believe it or not. And that's with playing MC and Hero. He loses to a lot of random Terrans. He never loses to a random Protoss. ColCruncher mean anything to you? lol
To be fair, I believe that was when Protoss air builds hadn't been figured out. That is, it was before Zergs realized that air play was legitimate and not cheesy and it was worthwhile to invest in a couple of Spores and an extra Queen before securing a third, assuming that a non-4gate, non-3gate Sentry Expand build had been scouted.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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EPT
