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On September 22 2011 06:50 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:38 Treemonkeys wrote:
I think wolf or doa said it best in that protoss has not really had to innovate very much in SC2 yet, that is what it seems like to me as well. Zerg and terran have both gone through much more meta game changes than protoss simply because it has taking this long for protoss timing pushes to finally be consistently shut down in high level play. It's up to protoss players to develop more consistent play styles and a patch (like the one we just got) will help. Maybe another patch is needed but personally I'm really curious to see where jyp, sase, and huk will be a month or two from now. Yeah man, curse that sick Terran innovation, it only took them a year to figure out Ghosts and Hellions were good! At this rate, maybe they'll start building Ravens against Baneling bombs and DTs before HotS comes out! It should be pointed out that Wolf's solution to the 1/1/1 (1 base Colossus rofl) is the only one that nobody ever tried in a televised game, that's how wrong it is. On one hand, it's really frustrating to hear various commentators effectively insult the skill and hard work of Protoss players by making these types of general statements. On the other, they will occasionally make fools out of themselves in a spectacular manner, like yesterday with Artosis' analysis of Puzzle vs Bomber, or today with Huk vs Virus g1. I sometimes wonder if they themselves even notice this.
Skill and hard work are not really the same thing as innovation though. Sometimes it only takes one person to show how easy it is and others follow.
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On September 22 2011 06:04 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 05:44 RisingTide wrote:On September 22 2011 05:21 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Zealots had 8x2 in BW FYI. nope.avi There was no x2 nonsense in BW. Zealots did a straight up 16 damage per attack. Did you play BW? I pretty much agree with you in this thread, but here, you're wrong. Zealot Woah, thanks for that. My brain asploded. I never realized that the Zealots did that, but I did mostly play Terran in BW so meh :S. I was so committed that the x2 stuff didn't exist in BW and that was Ownos possibly getting stuff confused with SC2, but woah I was wrong D:. My bad
it's actually still different than Sc2 though, because zealots in bw didn't have this nonsense where they could end up hitting a probe once rather than twice if it runs past them. so basically they had a range of 1 rather than 0.
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On September 22 2011 06:56 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:50 Toadvine wrote:On September 22 2011 06:38 Treemonkeys wrote:
I think wolf or doa said it best in that protoss has not really had to innovate very much in SC2 yet, that is what it seems like to me as well. Zerg and terran have both gone through much more meta game changes than protoss simply because it has taking this long for protoss timing pushes to finally be consistently shut down in high level play. It's up to protoss players to develop more consistent play styles and a patch (like the one we just got) will help. Maybe another patch is needed but personally I'm really curious to see where jyp, sase, and huk will be a month or two from now. Yeah man, curse that sick Terran innovation, it only took them a year to figure out Ghosts and Hellions were good! At this rate, maybe they'll start building Ravens against Baneling bombs and DTs before HotS comes out! It should be pointed out that Wolf's solution to the 1/1/1 (1 base Colossus rofl) is the only one that nobody ever tried in a televised game, that's how wrong it is. On one hand, it's really frustrating to hear various commentators effectively insult the skill and hard work of Protoss players by making these types of general statements. On the other, they will occasionally make fools out of themselves in a spectacular manner, like yesterday with Artosis' analysis of Puzzle vs Bomber, or today with Huk vs Virus g1. I sometimes wonder if they themselves even notice this. Skill and hard work are not really the same thing as innovation though. Sometimes it only takes one person to show how easy it is and others follow.
Ya...the BW story along these lines is the development of the Bisu Build that somewhat equalized PvZ. It took *9 years* after the release of BW, 6 years after the last BW balance patch, for Bisu to finally make that innovation.
I'm not waiting 6-9 years for someone to innovate up a way for protoss to become a playable race in SC2. I have better things to do than beat my head against a wall for all those years. And I'm definitely not going to pay money to GOM for 6-9 years to watch protoss get curbstomped almost every match. SC2 is neat but it's not so awesome that I'll patiently wait for a decade for it to be balanced.
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On September 22 2011 06:51 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On September 22 2011 06:43 galivet wrote:On September 22 2011 06:38 Treemonkeys wrote:
I think wolf or doa said it best in that protoss has not really had to innovate very much in SC2 yet, that is what it seems like to me as well. Zerg and terran have both gone through much more meta game changes than protoss simply because it has taking this long for protoss timing pushes to finally be consistently shut down in high level play. It's up to protoss players to develop more consistent play styles and a patch (like the one we just got) will help. Maybe another patch is needed but personally I'm really curious to see where jyp, sase, and huk will be a month or two from now. What's the big innovation that pro terrans have demonstrated in TvP again? Their best timing push (1/1/1 marine/tank/banshee) is from the beta, and MMMVG is from beta too. Please, spell out exactly what the terran innovations versus protoss have been since beta. Terran are drastically less reliant on all ins and timing pushes now than they were in the beta. 1/1/1 may be OP but for some reason it is still not really used often in GSL. The "THREAT" of 1-1-1 is as bad as the 1-1-1 itself. It requires a very specific counter that is both inefficient and even risky vs other styles of play that are not 1-1-1. If you see Puzzle vs Bomber, then you'll see what I mean. Puzzle blindly counters 1-1-1, Bomber takes an expansion and gets insanely far ahead. If you followed the discussion threads regarding the coin toss situation of going 1 Gate FE or 15 Nexus to counter 1-1-1 but die to many other things, you would be aware of this. 1-1-1 is still being used, as a metagaming strategy. No Korean Protoss goes into a match confident that they will not get 1-1-1'd. Terrans exploit this.
I wasn't talking about the 1/1/1 being OP or not at all. Terran play has evolved much more than protoss play has. Terran threatening one build while doing another is an example of that.
Anyways all I'm saying is I think things could change before too long. For all the "zerg tears lol" stuff that gets thrown around, people should actually learn from that and realize how silly it is to be so quick in saying one race is hopelessly underpowered.
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On September 22 2011 07:05 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:56 Treemonkeys wrote:On September 22 2011 06:50 Toadvine wrote:On September 22 2011 06:38 Treemonkeys wrote:
I think wolf or doa said it best in that protoss has not really had to innovate very much in SC2 yet, that is what it seems like to me as well. Zerg and terran have both gone through much more meta game changes than protoss simply because it has taking this long for protoss timing pushes to finally be consistently shut down in high level play. It's up to protoss players to develop more consistent play styles and a patch (like the one we just got) will help. Maybe another patch is needed but personally I'm really curious to see where jyp, sase, and huk will be a month or two from now. Yeah man, curse that sick Terran innovation, it only took them a year to figure out Ghosts and Hellions were good! At this rate, maybe they'll start building Ravens against Baneling bombs and DTs before HotS comes out! It should be pointed out that Wolf's solution to the 1/1/1 (1 base Colossus rofl) is the only one that nobody ever tried in a televised game, that's how wrong it is. On one hand, it's really frustrating to hear various commentators effectively insult the skill and hard work of Protoss players by making these types of general statements. On the other, they will occasionally make fools out of themselves in a spectacular manner, like yesterday with Artosis' analysis of Puzzle vs Bomber, or today with Huk vs Virus g1. I sometimes wonder if they themselves even notice this. Skill and hard work are not really the same thing as innovation though. Sometimes it only takes one person to show how easy it is and others follow. Ya...the BW story along these lines is the development of the Bisu Build that somewhat equalized PvZ. It took *9 years* after the release of BW, 6 years after the last BW balance patch, for Bisu to finally make that innovation. I'm not waiting 6-9 years for someone to innovate up a way for protoss to become a playable race in SC2. I have better things to do than beat my head against a wall for all those years. And I'm definitely not going to pay money to GOM for 6-9 years to watch protoss get curbstomped almost every match. SC2 is neat but it's not so awesome that I'll patiently wait for a decade for it to be balanced.
Agreed. Especially when zergs complained and got the fungal buff a short few months after the vr/colossus metagame was destroying them.
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On September 22 2011 07:05 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:56 Treemonkeys wrote:On September 22 2011 06:50 Toadvine wrote:On September 22 2011 06:38 Treemonkeys wrote:
I think wolf or doa said it best in that protoss has not really had to innovate very much in SC2 yet, that is what it seems like to me as well. Zerg and terran have both gone through much more meta game changes than protoss simply because it has taking this long for protoss timing pushes to finally be consistently shut down in high level play. It's up to protoss players to develop more consistent play styles and a patch (like the one we just got) will help. Maybe another patch is needed but personally I'm really curious to see where jyp, sase, and huk will be a month or two from now. Yeah man, curse that sick Terran innovation, it only took them a year to figure out Ghosts and Hellions were good! At this rate, maybe they'll start building Ravens against Baneling bombs and DTs before HotS comes out! It should be pointed out that Wolf's solution to the 1/1/1 (1 base Colossus rofl) is the only one that nobody ever tried in a televised game, that's how wrong it is. On one hand, it's really frustrating to hear various commentators effectively insult the skill and hard work of Protoss players by making these types of general statements. On the other, they will occasionally make fools out of themselves in a spectacular manner, like yesterday with Artosis' analysis of Puzzle vs Bomber, or today with Huk vs Virus g1. I sometimes wonder if they themselves even notice this. Skill and hard work are not really the same thing as innovation though. Sometimes it only takes one person to show how easy it is and others follow. Ya...the BW story along these lines is the development of the Bisu Build that somewhat equalized PvZ. It took *9 years* after the release of BW, 6 years after the last BW balance patch, for Bisu to finally make that innovation. I'm not waiting 6-9 years for someone to innovate up a way for protoss to become a playable race in SC2. I have better things to do than beat my head against a wall for all those years. And I'm definitely not going to pay money to GOM for 6-9 years to watch protoss get curbstomped almost every match. SC2 is neat but it's not so awesome that I'll patiently wait for a decade for it to be balanced.
That is a little ironic considering how BW is considered to be the pinnacle of rts balance.
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On September 22 2011 07:07 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:51 QTIP. wrote:On September 22 2011 06:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On September 22 2011 06:43 galivet wrote:On September 22 2011 06:38 Treemonkeys wrote:
I think wolf or doa said it best in that protoss has not really had to innovate very much in SC2 yet, that is what it seems like to me as well. Zerg and terran have both gone through much more meta game changes than protoss simply because it has taking this long for protoss timing pushes to finally be consistently shut down in high level play. It's up to protoss players to develop more consistent play styles and a patch (like the one we just got) will help. Maybe another patch is needed but personally I'm really curious to see where jyp, sase, and huk will be a month or two from now. What's the big innovation that pro terrans have demonstrated in TvP again? Their best timing push (1/1/1 marine/tank/banshee) is from the beta, and MMMVG is from beta too. Please, spell out exactly what the terran innovations versus protoss have been since beta. Terran are drastically less reliant on all ins and timing pushes now than they were in the beta. 1/1/1 may be OP but for some reason it is still not really used often in GSL. The "THREAT" of 1-1-1 is as bad as the 1-1-1 itself. It requires a very specific counter that is both inefficient and even risky vs other styles of play that are not 1-1-1. If you see Puzzle vs Bomber, then you'll see what I mean. Puzzle blindly counters 1-1-1, Bomber takes an expansion and gets insanely far ahead. If you followed the discussion threads regarding the coin toss situation of going 1 Gate FE or 15 Nexus to counter 1-1-1 but die to many other things, you would be aware of this. 1-1-1 is still being used, as a metagaming strategy. No Korean Protoss goes into a match confident that they will not get 1-1-1'd. Terrans exploit this. I wasn't talking about the 1/1/1 being OP or not at all. Terran play has evolved much more than protoss play has. Terran threatening one build while doing another is an example of that. Anyways all I'm saying is I think things could change before too long. For all the "zerg tears lol" stuff that gets thrown around, people should actually learn from that and realize how silly it is to be so quick in saying one race is hopelessly underpowered.
I was simply addressing your statement "1/1/1 may be OP but for some reason it is still not really used often in GSL."
You asked for a reason why it isn't used, and I gave it.
Please back up your statement about Terran play evolving much more than Protoss. Terran threatening one build but doing another is a terrible example. Are you telling me that as a Zerg or Protoss, you have never given the threat of one build but executed another? I'm not sure how this is unique to Terran, let alone a display of "metagame evolution". A really terrible example.
Terran's plethora of unit compositions / upgrades allow for a greater number of options and openings. Very few people would disagree that Terran has the most opening options of the 3 races. I would not label that as innovation at all, looking at the rigid tech paths of Protoss and "vulnerability" of Zerg early game, I would look at game design rather than praising Terrans for simply picking between their multitude of viable options.
In regards to innovation from a Protoss' perspective -- how much room for innovation do you have vs a Terran who may potentially 1-1-1 you for the win? Most of the builds you want to try will straight up die to the 1-1-1. The build to stop the 1-1-1, isn't the one you would pick if you knew he wasn't going to 1-1-1. You have very little room for flexibility. (Of course, the patch may change this)
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On September 22 2011 06:56 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:50 Toadvine wrote:On September 22 2011 06:38 Treemonkeys wrote:
I think wolf or doa said it best in that protoss has not really had to innovate very much in SC2 yet, that is what it seems like to me as well. Zerg and terran have both gone through much more meta game changes than protoss simply because it has taking this long for protoss timing pushes to finally be consistently shut down in high level play. It's up to protoss players to develop more consistent play styles and a patch (like the one we just got) will help. Maybe another patch is needed but personally I'm really curious to see where jyp, sase, and huk will be a month or two from now. Yeah man, curse that sick Terran innovation, it only took them a year to figure out Ghosts and Hellions were good! At this rate, maybe they'll start building Ravens against Baneling bombs and DTs before HotS comes out! It should be pointed out that Wolf's solution to the 1/1/1 (1 base Colossus rofl) is the only one that nobody ever tried in a televised game, that's how wrong it is. On one hand, it's really frustrating to hear various commentators effectively insult the skill and hard work of Protoss players by making these types of general statements. On the other, they will occasionally make fools out of themselves in a spectacular manner, like yesterday with Artosis' analysis of Puzzle vs Bomber, or today with Huk vs Virus g1. I sometimes wonder if they themselves even notice this. They can't just come out and call imba on the air because that would reveal that they know that the emperor has no clothes. In the interest of keeping e-sports alive and continuing to earn a paycheck they have to represent that the matches are fair and competitive and the winner is always the best player. You can tell though that they're running out of excuses and it's getting harder for them to feel any sense of drama or suspense about the matches. I feel like the GSL matches are getting even more stale and predictable for the commentators than they are for the regular viewers. It's bad when people who are basically professional SC2 promoters can't get excited about the highest level of SC2 play.
I agree that the commentators have to keep an air of optimism about the game's balance while on air, if only for job securities sake. But they (at least Artosis) know that something is rotten in the state of Starcraft. Listen to Artosis on the SotG from yesterday, he knows something id broken with Terran, he just can't say it when he's representing Gom.
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This is a bit off topic but this thread got me thinkin.
I'm a bit worried for the future of SC2 to be honest because even though balance has improved we're still quite far from where we would eventually like to be balance and metagame wise, but it's been 1½ year since the start of the beta. HotS is still probably at least 9 months away and when it comes out it's going to hit the reset button on balance. Then we have to wait another two years for LotV and then maybe a year after that we'll have a better balance situation.
Three expansions is too much, I hope they don't touch the multiplayer with LotV.
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On September 22 2011 07:27 hugman wrote:
This is a bit off topic but this thread got me thinkin.
I'm a bit worried for the future of SC2 to be honest because even though balance has improved we're still quite far from where we would eventually like to be balance and metagame wise, but it's been 1½ year since the start of the beta. HotS is still probably at least 9 months away and when it comes out it's going to hit the reset button on balance. Then we have to wait another two years for LotV and then maybe a year after that we'll have a better balance situation.
Three expansions is too much, I hope they don't touch the multiplayer with LotV.
What if HotS fucks the game up so much that we need new units again. (Sorry - poking holes)
But yes, 3 expansions is definitely not something you want for long-term balance stability.
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Despite all of the balance whines I have heard recently about protoss. I looked up the winrates from this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=262678. In the foreigner tournaments Protoss is at 47%. This is just two months later than when it was literally 50/50/50.
In korea the 45% is pretty bad, but its not even due to pvt like everyone is complaining about, its because they are at 41% vs zerg. I`m going to go ahead and say that this protoss QQ session is as wrong and silly as any complaints after the nerf to barrack after depot, and 5 rax reaper.
*The pvz does trouble me though but with the infestor nerf, hopefully that number ill bounce back torward 50%
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On September 22 2011 06:38 Treemonkeys wrote:
I think wolf or doa said it best in that protoss has not really had to innovate very much in SC2 yet, that is what it seems like to me as well. Zerg and terran have both gone through much more meta game changes than protoss simply because it has taking this long for protoss timing pushes to finally be consistently shut down in high level play. It's up to protoss players to develop more consistent play styles and a patch (like the one we just got) will help. Maybe another patch is needed but personally I'm really curious to see where jyp, sase, and huk will be a month or two from now.
Really ?
what can u innovate about protoss ? the units are broken.I'D SAY IT AGAIN PROTOSS UNITS ARE BROKEN.PERIOD.
Stalkers do pitiful dmg.Too expensive to be cost effective for a race that rarely secure 3rd.
Voidray... dont even get me started on this piece of crap.Tho, it'd be a perfect terran units combine with siege tanks.Too bad its a protoss unit.
Colossis are good.Only if sc2 doesnt have units like Vikings, Marauders, Infestor or Corruptor.
Immortals are too situational to be good.I like them but way too situational(they're extremely good on certain situation tho).
Carriers are jokes.Vikings would love to fight against em anytime anyday.
Mothership is a forgotten unit.Too slow to play on competitive level.
Warp Prism was one of my favourite unit.They are transportor + mobile pylon but when there're units like vikings, mutas or corruptor...
I think Reaver would fix Protoss but not sure if it'd be too powerful ?
Also Protoss lacked support caster like Arbiter.
Protossa are so easily predictable late game cuz the only threat is High Templar which is easily countered.
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On September 22 2011 07:36 gogatorsfoster wrote:Despite all of the balance whines I have heard recently about protoss. I looked up the winrates from this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=262678. In the foreigner tournaments Protoss is at 47%. This is just two months later than when it was literally 50/50/50. In korea the 45% is pretty bad, but its not even due to pvt like everyone is complaining about, its because they are at 41% vs zerg. I`m going to go ahead and say that this protoss QQ session is as wrong and silly as any complaints after the nerf to barrack after depot, and 5 rax reaper. *The pvz does trouble me though but with the infestor nerf, hopefully that number ill bounce back torward 50%
vOv anyone can cherry-pick tournament results or personal anecdotes or individual pro matches or whatever to spin the balance story whatever way they want it spun. For example, you bring up foreigner tournaments, and I counter with this season's GSL.
But at the end of the day if most protoss players move on to other games or race-switch to terran, e-sports falters, and the subsequent SC2 expansions sell more poorly than blizzard expects, then all there will be is a bunch of terran players TvTing on the ladder and TvTing in tournaments that hardly anyone watches and SC2 will be a failure. Even then I'm sure that people will be able to make some argument that the game is balanced for all three races, but it will be meaningless.
So...let's just see how it plays out long-term if Blizzard sits on its hands and doesn't balance the game with a quickness.
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On September 22 2011 07:52 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 07:36 gogatorsfoster wrote:Despite all of the balance whines I have heard recently about protoss. I looked up the winrates from this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=262678. In the foreigner tournaments Protoss is at 47%. This is just two months later than when it was literally 50/50/50. In korea the 45% is pretty bad, but its not even due to pvt like everyone is complaining about, its because they are at 41% vs zerg. I`m going to go ahead and say that this protoss QQ session is as wrong and silly as any complaints after the nerf to barrack after depot, and 5 rax reaper. *The pvz does trouble me though but with the infestor nerf, hopefully that number ill bounce back torward 50% vOv anyone can cherry-pick tournament results or personal anecdotes or whatever to spin the balance story whatever way they want it spun. For example, you bring up foreigner tournaments, and I counter with this season's GSL. But at the end of the day if most protoss players move on to other games or race-switch to terran, e-sports falters, and the subsequent SC2 expansions sell more poorly than blizzard expects, then all there will be is a bunch of terran players TvTing on the ladder and TvTing in tournaments that hardly anyone watches and SC2 will be a failure. Even then I'm sure that people will be able to make some argument that the game is balanced for all three races, but it will be meaningless. pvz and they nerfed So...let's just see how it plays out long-term if Blizzard sits on its hands and doesn't balance the game with a quickness.
Please stop. You basically said you can use facts but those things disprove my argument so im going to state some sensational future instead. The only match-up that had imbalanced numbers in that graph was the reason for it. The game is balanced, and if its imbalanced its very minor not to the extent that people like to act like.'
*also didn't cherry pick from tournaments Its every tournament in the foreigner and korean scene
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On September 22 2011 07:44 MrProb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 06:38 Treemonkeys wrote:
I think wolf or doa said it best in that protoss has not really had to innovate very much in SC2 yet, that is what it seems like to me as well. Zerg and terran have both gone through much more meta game changes than protoss simply because it has taking this long for protoss timing pushes to finally be consistently shut down in high level play. It's up to protoss players to develop more consistent play styles and a patch (like the one we just got) will help. Maybe another patch is needed but personally I'm really curious to see where jyp, sase, and huk will be a month or two from now. Really ? what can u innovate about protoss ? the units are broken.I'D SAY IT AGAIN PROTOSS UNITS ARE BROKEN.PERIOD. Stalkers do pitiful dmg.Too expensive to be cost effective for a race that rarely secure 3rd. Voidray... dont even get me started on this piece of crap.Tho, it'd be a perfect terran units combine with siege tanks.Too bad its a protoss unit. Colossis are good.Only if sc2 doesnt have units like Vikings, Marauders, Infestor or Corruptor. Immortals are too situational to be good.I like them but way too situational(they're extremely good on certain situation tho). Carriers are jokes.Vikings would love to fight against em anytime anyday. Mothership is a forgotten unit.Too slow to play on competitive level. Warp Prism was one of my favourite unit.They are transportor + mobile pylon but when there're units like vikings, mutas or corruptor... I think Reaver would fix Protoss but not sure if it'd be too powerful ? Also Protoss lacked support caster like Arbiter. Protossa are so easily predictable late game cuz the only threat is High Templar which is easily countered.
You list a lot of things, but balance is much more granular. You could revert a specific change for a specific unit to how it was in the beta and Protoss would suddenly be the strongest race again. Everything's intertwined too, buff Void Rays a lot and suddenly VR all-ins become much more powerful, so T has to play more defensively to prepare for that which allows P to get ahead and kill the T with the units you list as terrible.
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On September 22 2011 07:56 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 07:52 galivet wrote:On September 22 2011 07:36 gogatorsfoster wrote:Despite all of the balance whines I have heard recently about protoss. I looked up the winrates from this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=262678. In the foreigner tournaments Protoss is at 47%. This is just two months later than when it was literally 50/50/50. In korea the 45% is pretty bad, but its not even due to pvt like everyone is complaining about, its because they are at 41% vs zerg. I`m going to go ahead and say that this protoss QQ session is as wrong and silly as any complaints after the nerf to barrack after depot, and 5 rax reaper. *The pvz does trouble me though but with the infestor nerf, hopefully that number ill bounce back torward 50% vOv anyone can cherry-pick tournament results or personal anecdotes or whatever to spin the balance story whatever way they want it spun. For example, you bring up foreigner tournaments, and I counter with this season's GSL. But at the end of the day if most protoss players move on to other games or race-switch to terran, e-sports falters, and the subsequent SC2 expansions sell more poorly than blizzard expects, then all there will be is a bunch of terran players TvTing on the ladder and TvTing in tournaments that hardly anyone watches and SC2 will be a failure. Even then I'm sure that people will be able to make some argument that the game is balanced for all three races, but it will be meaningless. pvz and they nerfed So...let's just see how it plays out long-term if Blizzard sits on its hands and doesn't balance the game with a quickness. Please stop. You basically said you can use facts but those things disprove my argument so im going to state some sensational future instead. The only match-up that had imbalanced numbers in that graph was the reason for it. The game is balanced, and if its imbalanced its very minor not to the extent that people like to act like.' *also didn't cherry pick from tournaments Its every tournament in the foreigner and korean scene
Just so you know, PvT in GSL August had a 35% winrate out of 51 games, while PvZ was 30% out of 20 games. Don't you think that's a bit worrying, combined with the fact that there are 5 Protoss players in Code S, with Puzzle already falling to Up/Downs, 4 Protosses remaining in Ro16 of Code A (out of 12 in Ro32), and MC being knocked out of GSL altogether?
I think the reason the numbers are much better on the graph is that it counts the Code A preliminaries, where a lot of Protosses and Zergs qualified. Still, there's a very real possibility that there will be less than four Protoss players in the next Code S? Does that not subtly imply that something is wrong with the game? Or will we have to wait for Code S to comprise of 30 Terrans, Nestea, and DRG?
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On September 22 2011 08:11 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 07:56 gogatorsfoster wrote:On September 22 2011 07:52 galivet wrote:On September 22 2011 07:36 gogatorsfoster wrote:Despite all of the balance whines I have heard recently about protoss. I looked up the winrates from this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=262678. In the foreigner tournaments Protoss is at 47%. This is just two months later than when it was literally 50/50/50. In korea the 45% is pretty bad, but its not even due to pvt like everyone is complaining about, its because they are at 41% vs zerg. I`m going to go ahead and say that this protoss QQ session is as wrong and silly as any complaints after the nerf to barrack after depot, and 5 rax reaper. *The pvz does trouble me though but with the infestor nerf, hopefully that number ill bounce back torward 50% vOv anyone can cherry-pick tournament results or personal anecdotes or whatever to spin the balance story whatever way they want it spun. For example, you bring up foreigner tournaments, and I counter with this season's GSL. But at the end of the day if most protoss players move on to other games or race-switch to terran, e-sports falters, and the subsequent SC2 expansions sell more poorly than blizzard expects, then all there will be is a bunch of terran players TvTing on the ladder and TvTing in tournaments that hardly anyone watches and SC2 will be a failure. Even then I'm sure that people will be able to make some argument that the game is balanced for all three races, but it will be meaningless. pvz and they nerfed So...let's just see how it plays out long-term if Blizzard sits on its hands and doesn't balance the game with a quickness. Please stop. You basically said you can use facts but those things disprove my argument so im going to state some sensational future instead. The only match-up that had imbalanced numbers in that graph was the reason for it. The game is balanced, and if its imbalanced its very minor not to the extent that people like to act like.' *also didn't cherry pick from tournaments Its every tournament in the foreigner and korean scene Just so you know, PvT in GSL August had a 35% winrate out of 51 games, while PvZ was 30% out of 20 games. Don't you think that's a bit worrying, combined with the fact that there are 5 Protoss players in Code S, with Puzzle already falling to Up/Downs, 4 Protosses remaining in Ro16 of Code A (out of 12 in Ro32), and MC being knocked out of GSL altogether? I think the reason the numbers are much better on the graph is that it counts the Code A preliminaries, where a lot of Protosses and Zergs qualified. Still, there's a very real possibility that there will be less than four Protoss players in the next Code S? Does that not subtly imply that something is wrong with the game? Or will we have to wait for Code S to comprise of 30 Terrans, Nestea, and DRG?
Is there any proof you can show me of those numbers? But, I would say that all of korean tournaments>code S. I know gsl is the only tournament which is why I dont beleive the numbers you stated
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On September 22 2011 07:56 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 07:52 galivet wrote:On September 22 2011 07:36 gogatorsfoster wrote:Despite all of the balance whines I have heard recently about protoss. I looked up the winrates from this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=262678. In the foreigner tournaments Protoss is at 47%. This is just two months later than when it was literally 50/50/50. In korea the 45% is pretty bad, but its not even due to pvt like everyone is complaining about, its because they are at 41% vs zerg. I`m going to go ahead and say that this protoss QQ session is as wrong and silly as any complaints after the nerf to barrack after depot, and 5 rax reaper. *The pvz does trouble me though but with the infestor nerf, hopefully that number ill bounce back torward 50% vOv anyone can cherry-pick tournament results or personal anecdotes or whatever to spin the balance story whatever way they want it spun. For example, you bring up foreigner tournaments, and I counter with this season's GSL. But at the end of the day if most protoss players move on to other games or race-switch to terran, e-sports falters, and the subsequent SC2 expansions sell more poorly than blizzard expects, then all there will be is a bunch of terran players TvTing on the ladder and TvTing in tournaments that hardly anyone watches and SC2 will be a failure. Even then I'm sure that people will be able to make some argument that the game is balanced for all three races, but it will be meaningless. pvz and they nerfed So...let's just see how it plays out long-term if Blizzard sits on its hands and doesn't balance the game with a quickness. Please stop. You basically said you can use facts but those things disprove my argument so im going to state some sensational future instead. The only match-up that had imbalanced numbers in that graph was the reason for it. The game is balanced, and if its imbalanced its very minor not to the extent that people like to act like.' *also didn't cherry pick from tournaments Its every tournament in the foreigner and korean scene
That graph combines the foreigner and korean winrates so it becomes irrelevant because we are talking about the highest level of play. You know, in GSL and AOL, where protoss are 10-30, and only have 1 game won in Code S, and will most likely not have a single Protoss in the ro16. The game certainly is NOT balanced.
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On September 22 2011 08:16 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 07:56 gogatorsfoster wrote:On September 22 2011 07:52 galivet wrote:On September 22 2011 07:36 gogatorsfoster wrote:Despite all of the balance whines I have heard recently about protoss. I looked up the winrates from this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=262678. In the foreigner tournaments Protoss is at 47%. This is just two months later than when it was literally 50/50/50. In korea the 45% is pretty bad, but its not even due to pvt like everyone is complaining about, its because they are at 41% vs zerg. I`m going to go ahead and say that this protoss QQ session is as wrong and silly as any complaints after the nerf to barrack after depot, and 5 rax reaper. *The pvz does trouble me though but with the infestor nerf, hopefully that number ill bounce back torward 50% vOv anyone can cherry-pick tournament results or personal anecdotes or whatever to spin the balance story whatever way they want it spun. For example, you bring up foreigner tournaments, and I counter with this season's GSL. But at the end of the day if most protoss players move on to other games or race-switch to terran, e-sports falters, and the subsequent SC2 expansions sell more poorly than blizzard expects, then all there will be is a bunch of terran players TvTing on the ladder and TvTing in tournaments that hardly anyone watches and SC2 will be a failure. Even then I'm sure that people will be able to make some argument that the game is balanced for all three races, but it will be meaningless. pvz and they nerfed So...let's just see how it plays out long-term if Blizzard sits on its hands and doesn't balance the game with a quickness. Please stop. You basically said you can use facts but those things disprove my argument so im going to state some sensational future instead. The only match-up that had imbalanced numbers in that graph was the reason for it. The game is balanced, and if its imbalanced its very minor not to the extent that people like to act like.' *also didn't cherry pick from tournaments Its every tournament in the foreigner and korean scene That graph combines the foreigner and korean winrates so it becomes irrelevant because we are talking about the highest level of play. You know, in GSL and AOL, where protoss are 10-30, and only have 1 game won in Code S, and will most likely not have a single Protoss in the ro16. The game certainly is NOT balanced.
The tournaments are separated. Korea on one side international on the other. Also are you saying that protoss is only underpowered at the highest level? Because then nobody on the forum needs to complain.
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On September 22 2011 08:18 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 08:16 Olinim wrote:On September 22 2011 07:56 gogatorsfoster wrote:On September 22 2011 07:52 galivet wrote:On September 22 2011 07:36 gogatorsfoster wrote:Despite all of the balance whines I have heard recently about protoss. I looked up the winrates from this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=262678. In the foreigner tournaments Protoss is at 47%. This is just two months later than when it was literally 50/50/50. In korea the 45% is pretty bad, but its not even due to pvt like everyone is complaining about, its because they are at 41% vs zerg. I`m going to go ahead and say that this protoss QQ session is as wrong and silly as any complaints after the nerf to barrack after depot, and 5 rax reaper. *The pvz does trouble me though but with the infestor nerf, hopefully that number ill bounce back torward 50% vOv anyone can cherry-pick tournament results or personal anecdotes or whatever to spin the balance story whatever way they want it spun. For example, you bring up foreigner tournaments, and I counter with this season's GSL. But at the end of the day if most protoss players move on to other games or race-switch to terran, e-sports falters, and the subsequent SC2 expansions sell more poorly than blizzard expects, then all there will be is a bunch of terran players TvTing on the ladder and TvTing in tournaments that hardly anyone watches and SC2 will be a failure. Even then I'm sure that people will be able to make some argument that the game is balanced for all three races, but it will be meaningless. pvz and they nerfed So...let's just see how it plays out long-term if Blizzard sits on its hands and doesn't balance the game with a quickness. Please stop. You basically said you can use facts but those things disprove my argument so im going to state some sensational future instead. The only match-up that had imbalanced numbers in that graph was the reason for it. The game is balanced, and if its imbalanced its very minor not to the extent that people like to act like.' *also didn't cherry pick from tournaments Its every tournament in the foreigner and korean scene That graph combines the foreigner and korean winrates so it becomes irrelevant because we are talking about the highest level of play. You know, in GSL and AOL, where protoss are 10-30, and only have 1 game won in Code S, and will most likely not have a single Protoss in the ro16. The game certainly is NOT balanced. The tournaments are separated. Korea on one side international on the other. Also are you saying that protoss is only underpowered at the highest level? Because then nobody on the forum needs to complain.
Of course we need to complain...the highest level of play is what we are watching and we're sick of TvT and 1/1/1. People aren't complaining because they are losing ladder games.
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EPT
