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I'm going to
##Vote: Sinani206
also, for two reasons.
1. As people have pointed out he does look suspicious
2. The only other vote really happening is Mataza which seems to be 1 person starting it then 2 more saying they disagree with the first but will vote for the hell of it, if your guys goals were to start discussion/activity you've succeeded, now you should either get some real reasons to vote him or back off.
As a last note, this vote is purely pressure if Sinani starts to contribute I'll change my vote immediately to Kurumi who I think is much more likely scum.
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##Dunkirk Operation
People seem to be ignoring that the nuke-killing one will take two days, meaning we don't get a choice in what to do tomorrow. Extra lives are good, being able to do something tomorrow is good.
Also, now that it's time to vote for lynches and such, has everyone forgotten about this?
On July 05 2011 19:00 Curu wrote:How do you know Mafia has KP of 1? It wasn't in the OP and it's a closed setup.?
Assumption from last game or something more? :o
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Its going to be pretty hard to prevent people from firing on impulse, I just ask that you post in the thread your intentions and sit on it for an hour before doing so. Getting a reaction from the town is just as important as firing the nuke. If the entire town shoots down your nuke target, listen to them. The entire time isn't trying to work against you. Retaliation nuking is a good deterrent for preventing scum for firing on town. They won't be willing to make a 1:1 trade. If we get lucky, hopefully we can just kill of the conspirator in the first couple of days and not have to worry about the radiation level. For a reference, does anyone have the radiation cap from the previous game?
Palmar, what exactly were you trying to accomplish with your fake nuke? Seems like you need to follow your own advice.
On July 05 2011 19:18 Palmar wrote:
I'm not gonna shit up the thread
On July 05 2011 20:19 Palmar wrote:
But hey, I adhere to my own plan though, I'm not going to nuke anyone unless I have a really good reason to, cause you know, I'm actually going to try and win this thing.
On July 05 2011 22:08 chaos13 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +(Your Name)'s Plan for Not Letting the Conspirator Win
Nuke Policy
Fire/Don't Fire under the following circumstances:
Punishment
This is what happens if you break the rules:
Why
Explanation for why this is the best plan:
Support
How does this plan compare to WaW 1? How could it have affected the results of that game?
Other Tidbits
Anything else you want to say.
[b]##Vote: (Your Name)'s Plan[/b[
Why are you proposing a formatting for plan submission without posting a plan yourself? That seems kinda weird.
As for the campaign, Dunkirk seems pretty obvious the best pro-town choice. It's essentially buying the town 3 vets. I'm really confused at a couple people's initial evaluation of the campaigns. I would like the people who didn't vote for Dunkirk to explain their positioning better.
##Vote Dunkirk
Also, ##Vote Zona
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Oh, and it's been said before but it bears repeating: no nukes day 1. We're NOT going to go down that path 
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On July 06 2011 09:18 kitaman27 wrote:?
Palmar, what exactly were you trying to accomplish with your fake nuke? Seems like you need to follow your own advice.
Nothing really, wouldn't have launched it if I had known that it could potentially take a life away from someone. It also confirms that I have no nukes, which seeing as I claimed it anyway, it's always good to prove that you're not lying.
Just because I wanted to fire missiles, and I actually can (or thought I could) without any repercussions for town.
There was a notable success in it though, I'm really suspicious of Kurumi based on his reactions to it. This really does not look like town Kurumi.
I need to sleep, but he's one to keep an eye on.
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On July 06 2011 09:23 Eiii wrote:Oh, and it's been said before but it bears repeating: no nukes day 1. We're NOT going to go down that path
Thanks for popping in and providing good content that hasn't been discussed before. This makes you look really pro-town in my eyes.
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Okay, I'm going to try to explain this once more, very slowly.
When balancing a game the host takes into consideration the number of night kills by mafia compared to the number of people playing the game. The more lynches we have per day the less kill mafia has. That's easy and simple, anyone refusing to see this should take a step back and think it through again. If we push this to the limit we have all lynches in one day and no mafia night kills. With most players in the game being town aligned you can see how it's extremelly dificult for mafia to win.
This game has a deterrent to that though, which is the conspirator. It prevents us from simply nuking all players and having infinite "lynches" per day. Also there is the time constraint, each day having 48hrs prevents us from discussing and agreeing on multiple targets per day.
Nevertheless it IS extremelly advantageous to town to lynch more than one player per day, and making it 2 per day is a conservative way to prevent conspirator from winning and leaving enough time for discussion. It's ridiculous to argue otherwise. "Mafia can influence the lynch and kill more town players per day". Yes they can, but they also have COMPLETE control over their night kills and the lynch is our main weapon to defeat mafia. It really comes to skill from town as a whole vs skill from mafia when determining the outcome of a lynch, but it tends to favor town as town always has more players.
With that out of the way let me explain to all of you why Palmar is NOT town-aligned this game:
If you have not followed the discussion from when I the plan initially came up till now I sugest you do so.
When I first proposed my plan, palmar said it was terrible and he wanted "individual thinking" from town. First let me say that Scum absolutelly does not want us to use the plan. It fucks them in many ways and it fucks them hard. So what's scum behaviour in that scenario? They want to dismiss it, but they want to do so without drawing uneeded suspicion onto them. It would be foolish for them to start attacking the plan hard before it even gets momentum. And that's exactly what palmar does:
On July 05 2011 18:41 Palmar wrote:Time to stop the insanity and explain this. Sandroba's is slightly less bad, but still wrests control away from townies. I'm a big advocate of the "shoot early, shoot independently, shoot scum and shoot often" vigilante policy. Clearly with the radiation thing this has to be scaled back a little bit, but for the most part, it still applies, just chill a bit and think again before you shoot. So, without further ado, I introduce an alternative to all the dumb shit that's been going on. I will require every major nation in the world to sign this agreement. The Palmar Agreement:
1. Article
- Nuke Scum
2. Article
- Don't be an idiot
3. Article
##Vote: GMarshal
On July 05 2011 19:18 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 19:12 sandroba wrote:
@Curu Based on last game. I thought I read it in the op, but it says "night kills", so I'm probably wrong. Still all the more incentive to have double lynches every day.
Vigs work well because they are hidden and can claim their shot in thread afterwards to confirm themselves etc (since they are protown in most setups). Nukes are NOTHING like that because they have to be announced in thread, which tends to generate hate and retaliation when the player flips green and turn into a chain reaction of townie deaths. Independant thinking is gonna lead us to disaster, you can mark my words (or read WaW 1). If you want to nuke a player that badly just fucking explain us why and we will vote on it. Whatever. I'm not gonna shit up the thread by discussing a bad plan, I'm going to rely on people not being dumb as fuck. But hey, if anyone wants to play your little stifling game, then all the power to you.
Bear in mind that Palmar claimed later to have 0 nukes. He wants independent though from "pros and great analystis" while putting blind faith on their aligment. Needless to say that has lead to disaster in all previous games using a similar setup.
Also we still have blue roles who have night actions (the equivalent of vigs/medics/dts, we did in previous games and if we don't in this game palmar has no reason to believe that's the case), and it's completely up to them how to use them.
Lets look at this other post shall we:
On July 05 2011 18:58 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 18:52 sandroba wrote:
@palmar except that if this game is like the previous both scum and town have nukes. Nukes are not like vig shots because they lead to 3rd party win. Also probably have a fuckton of players with nukes and if every one "tries to hit scum" with it we are screwed.
That's why I said "just chill a bit" in my text. yes, scum probably has nukes. You're working under the misconception that somehow allowing people to vote or agree on a nuke is bending to the town's will, this is incorrect. The town is, and will always be, controlled by few vocal members that are charismatic and convincing enough to lead the rest along with them on crusades. Vigilante shots (or nukes) provide a great alternative to that. If the town "council" of people who lead the town are missing something or even in worst case being messed with by scum, that's when we really need independent vigilante shots.
Don't try to control town.Also, if everyone signs my agreement, then there's a clause that says "Don't be an idiot", and thus we will not have stupid or useless nukes.
In RTM where Palmar was town aligned, he strived to take leadership, took scumhunting into his own hands while trying to keep town focused (even if he was wrong about he's suspects sometimes). He refused to deposit blind faith in anyone and kept scum on their toes all game. Lets look at the results: It produced a ton of good information, which allowed players to be extremelly acurate with their blue powers and lynches and became the one of the most one sided town victories so far in this forum. We can't say it didn't work out for him, quite the oposite.
Now in this game, we not only see a complete 180 in his mentality, but also a change that's extremelly pro-mafia and anti-town, judging by not only mine, but his own standards: He doesn't want leadership and wants to trust in players that, if he was town aligned, he would have no knowledge of their aligment. That's only going to lead into dozens of nukes being fired at random and most of the hits will be townie deaths. Mafia knows who their players are so they can use their nukes/counter-nukes strategically while we cannot. That's a extremelly mafia favored field. He compares nukes to vigilante shots when everyone and their mother knows they are NOTHING simillar.
As a town this makes absolutely no sense, but as mafia it sure as hell does.
Lets move on to later in the discussion. The plan starts gaining strengh and many players start agreeing with it. When Palmar notices this he starts to opose it more vocally since mafia is absolutelly screwed if we agree on this. His arguments are that we should not trust the town circle, which is clear bullshit when everyone is allowed to vote on the targets and that players should be allowed to use independent thought. But look at this, it's not like palmar wants to take matters into his own hands and nuke scum. He has no fucking nukes (at least he claims). He wants to blindly trust other players to make their decisions on who to nuke. That's not the town aligned Palmar which we all know, which would have jumped on the opportunity of having two lynches per day and kick scum's sorry ass, by trying to lead town based on his beliefs.
All this so far 100% proves that palmar is not town aligned this game. But lets continue so you can notice Palmar change in behaviour. Suddenly I pop in the thread and say I know he's scum and have all the info I need to prove it (presented above). From this moment on Palmar gradually changes his opinion from "terrible plan" to "really decent plan" and he abandons his previous beliefs for the terrible reasoning "my previous plan does not allow role claims". As GM pointed out roles have absoulutelly no bearing on aligment, and that alone should never be enough for you to change your mind about something you were fighting so strongly against. This only makes sense as a desperate attempt by scum to remedy their complete exposure and try to hide again.
Palmar has already shown us his true colors and now is trying to back down like a misbehaved child providing weak excuses (something town palmar would never do).
PALMAR IS SCUM
##Vote: Palmar
##Dunkirk Operation
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On July 05 2011 18:37 sandroba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 18:18 prplhz wrote:
I think the whole idea that nukes can be used in a controlled way is absurd .. it may work but if it backfires it could really mean disaster and I don't think it's worth the risk. I suggest we just go about this game as if noone would have any reason to nuke ever unless they are conspirators. The whole "I think maybe we can use this many nukes before the earth self destructs" is a pretty bad gamble. Imagine if someone suggested it irl.
So far I'm pretty skeptical towards sandroba and GMarshal 'cause they are quite foolishly proposing that we use nukes in a controlled way, something that can only lead to disaster. Not so much about Chaos13. Also stop talking about confirmed scum. I sugest you go read WaW 1 before posting nonsense like this. How is controling nukes is gonna lead to disaster as oposed to NOT controling nukes? It's been proven already that if we don't control it leads to many townie deaths. People nuke each other out of spite and because someone else nuked a player and he flipped town. Mafia has measly 1 kp this game, if we get 2 days worth of lynch per night we are going to rape them, unless people go about killing each other. @Palmar can you provide reasoning as to why this plan is bad?
Am I missing something, or is this a blatant scum slip? Where has Caller stated the mafia KP?
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Yeah, I don't see it posted anywhere.
##Vote: sandroba
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On July 06 2011 09:18 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 22:08 chaos13 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +(Your Name)'s Plan for Not Letting the Conspirator Win
Nuke Policy
Fire/Don't Fire under the following circumstances:
Punishment
This is what happens if you break the rules:
Why
Explanation for why this is the best plan:
Support
How does this plan compare to WaW 1? How could it have affected the results of that game?
Other Tidbits
Anything else you want to say.
[b]##Vote: (Your Name)'s Plan[/b[ Why are you proposing a formatting for plan submission without posting a plan yourself? That seems kinda weird.
I didn't have a better plan, but I was confused about the ones that had already been suggested. This outline made sure that they were explained clearly, and organized people's opinions on them. Well, it would have if we had a longer N0. As it was, the day cycle started earlier than I expected it to.
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Sandroba has a scumslip but at least he didn't vote for Operation Gunnerside (if he had after initial conversations with him, I would have bandwagoned the fuck out of him).
That said IMO lurkers hurt Town more than anything else. With a full active playerbase Mafia has to be active meaning more chances for scumslips and important information leaking out. If they can just hide in the lurkers, we have nothing to go on.
I'd like to lure out Cthsazsa, Zona , ~OpZ~ or gtrsrs as they haven't posted -anything- at all. Looks like there's one other for Zona so let's get that started.
##Vote: Zona
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On July 06 2011 10:46 Curu wrote:
Sandroba has a scumslip but at least he didn't vote for Operation Gunnerside (if he had after initial conversations with him, I would have bandwagoned the fuck out of him).
That said IMO lurkers hurt Town more than anything else. With a full active playerbase Mafia has to be active meaning more chances for scumslips and important information leaking out. If they can just hide in the lurkers, we have nothing to go on.
I'd like to lure out Cthsazsa, Zona , ~OpZ~ or gtrsrs as they haven't posted -anything- at all. Looks like there's one other for Zona so let's get that started.
##Vote: Zona
..you agree that he made a scum slip...and you vote for someone else.
What the fuck?
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Ah, I see this has already been addressed.
On July 05 2011 19:12 sandroba wrote:
@Curu Based on last game. I thought I read it in the op, but it says "night kills", so I'm probably wrong. Still all the more incentive to have double lynches every day.
Vigs work well because they are hidden and can claim their shot in thread afterwards to confirm themselves etc (since they are protown in most setups). Nukes are NOTHING like that because they have to be announced in thread, which tends to generate hate and retaliation when the player flips green and turn into a chain reaction of townie deaths. Independant thinking is gonna lead us to disaster, you can mark my words (or read WaW 1). If you want to nuke a player that badly just fucking explain us why and we will vote on it.
Rest assured sandroba that if I leave my vote on you, it won't be for this. I'm back reading through the thread and taking notes so I'll have a better idea of what's going on in a bit.
What time does Day 1 end?
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On July 06 2011 10:47 chaos13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 10:46 Curu wrote:
Sandroba has a scumslip but at least he didn't vote for Operation Gunnerside (if he had after initial conversations with him, I would have bandwagoned the fuck out of him).
That said IMO lurkers hurt Town more than anything else. With a full active playerbase Mafia has to be active meaning more chances for scumslips and important information leaking out. If they can just hide in the lurkers, we have nothing to go on.
I'd like to lure out Cthsazsa, Zona , ~OpZ~ or gtrsrs as they haven't posted -anything- at all. Looks like there's one other for Zona so let's get that started.
##Vote: Zona ..you agree that he made a scum slip...and you vote for someone else. What the fuck?
Willing to give the benefit of the doubt for now. If you notice, I'm the one that called him out on the scumslip first so believe me I'm putting weight into it. sandroba's been more active than most though and his posts actually have content in them.
My vote on him hinged on what operation he voted for and the one he did choose didn't set off my alarms.
Nothing is more dangerous than scum being able to hide amongst Townie lurkers so that's my modus operandi until all the lurkers start doing something useful.
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On July 06 2011 10:51 Curu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 10:47 chaos13 wrote:On July 06 2011 10:46 Curu wrote:
Sandroba has a scumslip but at least he didn't vote for Operation Gunnerside (if he had after initial conversations with him, I would have bandwagoned the fuck out of him).
That said IMO lurkers hurt Town more than anything else. With a full active playerbase Mafia has to be active meaning more chances for scumslips and important information leaking out. If they can just hide in the lurkers, we have nothing to go on.
I'd like to lure out Cthsazsa, Zona , ~OpZ~ or gtrsrs as they haven't posted -anything- at all. Looks like there's one other for Zona so let's get that started.
##Vote: Zona ..you agree that he made a scum slip...and you vote for someone else. What the fuck? Willing to give the benefit of the doubt for now. If you notice, I'm the one that called him out on the scumslip first so believe me I'm putting weight into it. sandroba's been more active than most though and his posts actually have content in them. My vote on him hinged on what operation he voted for and the one he did choose didn't set off my alarms. Nothing is more dangerous than scum being able to hide amongst Townie lurkers so that's my modus operandi until all the lurkers start doing something useful.
This post is scummy as fuck.
It sounds like you and sandroba are both scum, and you screwed up by sharing his scumslip and now you want to come back and defend your ally.
Why should your vote hinge (to use your word) on which operation he voted for? Your vote should be for the scummiest player.
The whole lurker excuse is complete bullshit.
##Vote: sandroba
I propose a nuke of Curu
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Yeah sorry about that Curu. I just got to where you called him out on it after I posted that.
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On July 06 2011 10:55 sinani206 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 10:51 Curu wrote:On July 06 2011 10:47 chaos13 wrote:On July 06 2011 10:46 Curu wrote:
Sandroba has a scumslip but at least he didn't vote for Operation Gunnerside (if he had after initial conversations with him, I would have bandwagoned the fuck out of him).
That said IMO lurkers hurt Town more than anything else. With a full active playerbase Mafia has to be active meaning more chances for scumslips and important information leaking out. If they can just hide in the lurkers, we have nothing to go on.
I'd like to lure out Cthsazsa, Zona , ~OpZ~ or gtrsrs as they haven't posted -anything- at all. Looks like there's one other for Zona so let's get that started.
##Vote: Zona ..you agree that he made a scum slip...and you vote for someone else. What the fuck? Willing to give the benefit of the doubt for now. If you notice, I'm the one that called him out on the scumslip first so believe me I'm putting weight into it. sandroba's been more active than most though and his posts actually have content in them. My vote on him hinged on what operation he voted for and the one he did choose didn't set off my alarms. Nothing is more dangerous than scum being able to hide amongst Townie lurkers so that's my modus operandi until all the lurkers start doing something useful. This post is scummy as fuck. It sounds like you and sandroba are both scum, and you screwed up by sharing his scumslip and now you want to come back and defend your ally. Why should your vote hinge (to use your word) on which operation he voted for? Your vote should be for the scummiest player. The whole lurker excuse is complete bullshit. ##Vote: sandroba
I propose a nuke of Curu
lol? Why would I even point out his scumslip if I didn't want to draw attention to it?
How cute, you ignore all the accusations on you in this thread and instead try to divert attention on me with something completely stupid and baseless. Seems like you're in a hurried panic, hmm?
My vote hinged on what operation he voted for because he had a whole argument formed based on Mafia's nukes being useless. If sandroba had gone against that whole line of argument he was making (and he was quite involved with it) then he would have appeared scummy as fuck. But he didn't.
Instead you now appear scummy as fuck. Saying a lurker excuse is bullshit without providing any reasoning? Proposing to nuke me because I didn't lynch based on a scumslip that I FIRST POINTED OUT? If I had wanted that scumslip unavoided I wouldn't have posted anything about it.
I still want to draw the lurkers out but I'd suggest everyone keeping a firm eye on you.
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On July 06 2011 10:55 sinani206 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 10:51 Curu wrote:On July 06 2011 10:47 chaos13 wrote:On July 06 2011 10:46 Curu wrote:
Sandroba has a scumslip but at least he didn't vote for Operation Gunnerside (if he had after initial conversations with him, I would have bandwagoned the fuck out of him).
That said IMO lurkers hurt Town more than anything else. With a full active playerbase Mafia has to be active meaning more chances for scumslips and important information leaking out. If they can just hide in the lurkers, we have nothing to go on.
I'd like to lure out Cthsazsa, Zona , ~OpZ~ or gtrsrs as they haven't posted -anything- at all. Looks like there's one other for Zona so let's get that started.
##Vote: Zona ..you agree that he made a scum slip...and you vote for someone else. What the fuck? Willing to give the benefit of the doubt for now. If you notice, I'm the one that called him out on the scumslip first so believe me I'm putting weight into it. sandroba's been more active than most though and his posts actually have content in them. My vote on him hinged on what operation he voted for and the one he did choose didn't set off my alarms. Nothing is more dangerous than scum being able to hide amongst Townie lurkers so that's my modus operandi until all the lurkers start doing something useful. This post is scummy as fuck. It sounds like you and sandroba are both scum, and you screwed up by sharing his scumslip and now you want to come back and defend your ally. Why should your vote hinge (to use your word) on which operation he voted for? Your vote should be for the scummiest player. The whole lurker excuse is complete bullshit. ##Vote: sandroba
I propose a nuke of Curu
Not only is this an OMGUS, it encourages nukes. Do you really think your reads will be that accurate on Day 1? No nukes Day 1.
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meant to say avoided* not unavoided.
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EPT
