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On June 30 2011 18:29 Chezinu wrote:So, I was thinking. Yes, I do think about the game from time to time before posting. Let's say we have two DT roles or a mafia is faking a DT role. Wouldn't it be interesting if two DTs claimed on the same day? The mafia only having one KP can only kill one of us.. If we do in fact have two DTs and both claimed today, that would give town a lot of information. So without further delay: Question: + Show Spoiler +Do you guys think the other DT, if there is one should claim?
The other DT should absolutely not claim. Get more reports and then we compare them later.
I tend to do this...
I am now the Emperor around here.
You shall do my bidding.
My bidding is to hang RoL.
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Oh noes! He is using his special powers against me...
##Unvote
##RebirthofLegend
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Hi gang, unfortunately this:
On June 22 2011 00:13 Radfield wrote:
/in
As a heads up to the other players, I will likely be a slightly less active version of myself this game.
has become a reality. I've spent almost zero time on this game(obviously), and am checking to see if Ace is still subbing in replacements. I made a mistake joining as I really don't have the time to put in the effort required. If ace isn't subbing anymore, then I'll of course put in what time I have, but at the very least I won't be around until this evening.
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On June 30 2011 22:03 Caller wrote:
RoL, you should claim.
This is also my bidding.
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On June 30 2011 22:03 Caller wrote:
RoL, you should claim.
Or at least post something that isn't scummy.
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Noticed I never weighed in on GMarshal's plan early on? I can see where he's coming from, but I did not share his view of offing the DT right away if the DT makes a claim accusing another, and I'm not going to waste my time arguing the merits of such plan. No matter, even if part of the Town agreed with him, regardless of what happens, I need to make sure that the timing of my claim is right and the information is sufficient. 1-for-1 trade? Not good enough.
I see my role as an extremely high value target for the Mafia due to the nature of my checks. Obviously, if a Medic does not protect me in next Night phase, I will very likely die; If Mafia has a Role-Blocker, I'm pretty damn sure I would be role-blocked. If any of my checks were validated, my credibility will go through the roof and if Town can keep me alive, all I have to do is go through the players with checks. The game would be in the bag. Of course this would be the most ideal situation.
However, I'm not naive enough to think that everything would go so smooth. The check on RoL was crucial, as it links a lot of broken pieces together, especially with the bizarre overall voting pattern on Day 1. If RoL resulted in innocent, I would not have come fourth; Since I have, I'm confident with my picks and read. Even if I'm wrong with one or two, or if I die, I'm sure the Town can pick up from there.
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On June 30 2011 18:31 Kurumi wrote:
Oh also,I am up for killing any fucking Coroner who shows up tomorrow. You can go to hell. The probability You're Scum Coroner are as high as Sea Towers in Gdynia.
I support this, for my own reasons.
Oh and ##Vote: RebirthofLegend
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On June 30 2011 22:03 Caller wrote:
RoL, you should claim.
It doesn't matter what he claims, as in my eyes, whatever he claims would be a lie.
It was rather fortunate for him that he actually said a Medic saved him last night. If he claims that he is a Veteran, than obviously one of us is lying (not like he isn't already). If I'm lying, there there will be no argument. But a Mafia Veteran? Good luck with that.
Now, he claims that a Medic saved him. No, I don't need the Medic to come fourth to prove the claim if a Medic did save him, but there are a few questions everyone might want to ask themselves first.
- RoL has not exactly shown the strongest Town-aligned play in this game, in fact, alot of his stuff falls into the grey area. The "oops, I missed my vote" move he pulled at the end raised eyebrows. Why would a Medic, among all players, would choose to protect him?
- Caller has claimed Vigilante and shot GMarshal at the start (I'm still pondering this). deconduo has also claimed Vigilante. So if what RoL says is true, there has to a third Vigilante or similar type of role out there that has Night KP. What is the likelihood of this?
- You combine the two variables up top; What is the likelihood that RoL's claim is true?
- Furthermore, do I seem to be making up all this fuss just to paint RoL red?
That's all I have to say.
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##Vote: RebirthofLegend
I was already suspicious of him from the vote switch and excuse, + his hit claim right after Night post seems to just be causing confusion for the town.
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On June 30 2011 23:20 Fishball wrote:It doesn't matter what he claims, as in my eyes, whatever he claims would be a lie. It was rather fortunate for him that he actually said a Medic saved him last night. If he claims that he is a Veteran, than obviously one of us is lying (not like he isn't already). If I'm lying, there there will be no argument. But a Mafia Veteran? Good luck with that. Now, he claims that a Medic saved him. No, I don't need the Medic to come fourth to prove the claim if a Medic did save him, but there are a few questions everyone might want to ask themselves first. - RoL has not exactly shown the strongest Town-aligned play in this game, in fact, alot of his stuff falls into the grey area. The "oops, I missed my vote" move he pulled at the end raised eyebrows. Why would a Medic, among all players, would choose to protect him? - Caller has claimed Vigilante and shot GMarshal at the start (I'm still pondering this). deconduo has also claimed Vigilante. So if what RoL says is true, there has to a third Vigilante or similar type of role out there that has Night KP. What is the likelihood of this? - You combine the two variables up top; What is the likelihood that RoL's claim is true? - Furthermore, do I seem to be making up all this fuss just to paint RoL red? That's all I have to say.
He should still claim anyways. I want to see what he has to say for himself.
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Perhaps I'm being naive or foolish but I'm going to take fishball at his word. GMarshal's plan for lynching the DT first revolved around preventing scum from making a false claim. He appeared to have enough support in his plan that I gotta believe Fishball is telling the truth. I can't see the scum team putting one of their own so close to a noose.
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So this game finally got fun, I am proud of you fishball, playing ballsy games makes this just so much more entertaining, doesn't it? Unfortunately you picked the wrong person and I can see right through your shit.
First let's get into why DT claiming is retarded and why fishball is better than that. This game has no flips, this means we can't confirm shit about his supposed DT claim, and by the time we actually realize something is amiss its too late and we have pissed away a minimum of two lynches believing him. I have explained it before and I am going to quote it right now for you all to read.
On June 26 2011 08:21 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 05:02 Radfield wrote:On June 26 2011 03:57 GMarshal wrote:
We lynch the DT first as a deterrent to scum plans that revolve around getting one last lynch. We don't know what wonky powers the mafia might have this game, so the last thing we want is a situation where we are at lylo without knowing it an the mafia have to force a mislynch. If we maintain the policy of lynching the DT first then we deter any such situation. This is especially important because we have no way to confirm that what a coroner is telling us is true. It would be a ballsy move, but mafia could potentially claim DT and have a second member "confirm" them with a coroner check. Its different if the coroner has the results appear in the day post, but even so it might be manipulable.
Basically with no way to verify anyone's role we need to lynch claimed DTs first to stop power plays from the mafia.
Maybe its me being paranoid, but it seems to me that Ace's games are always punctuated by scum trying to carry off incredible plays. I'm trying to safeguard against situations like that. If we lynch the DT first we guarantee that nothing odd is going on. This doesn't really make sense to me. Scum already have a deterent to false claiming dt, in that they will be trading 1 for 1. There is only potential upside to lynching the dt second, as we may be able to verify via a coroner. Yes it's possible/likely that we won't be able to verify the dt, but it's worth trying. Obviously at LYLO things change though. I can't see any potential upside to killing the dt first. Do not play in trying to guess Ace's roles included int he game. I used that as a basis for an analysis in Toy Factory which resulted in me trusting Annul which contributed to the rape that occurred that game. I actually completely agree with how any sort of detective type role should be used this game. If you find a scum, push them using an analysis. Claiming DT will result in us killing you out of safety, a fake DT claim in a no flip scenario is simply way too deadly. In that sense any claim of DT will be met with swift and decisive death. We have no way of confirming anything said by a DT and it has the potential to royally fuck up the town. We need to stick to this no matter what. On a related note. Any type of detective role should stick to investigating less active individuals. I seriously doubt this will be an issue in this game due to the player base, but it is something worth stating. I am so disappointed with how XLII was basically thrown away by 1/5th if not more of the town lurking and it putting us in an impossible situation. It's another reason I am happy this game is small with known active players. Off the top of my head, if we somehow have few/no inactive players, I would recommend checking any player significantly influential in town decision, that means any vocal townie who is leading lynches. The important thing is that when you find a scum, do NOT role claim. Create analysis on that person, constantly push their guilt, but under no circumstances do you claim. From a mafia perspective killing you would then just draw people to your analysis, so its a double edged sword. You protect yourself and push a mafia by one simple act of pushing your suspects without claiming.
As stated in this post, DT claiming is retarded, and from a lessor player I might consider making an exception based on lack of experience and confidence, but fishball obviously won't get that luxury. Claiming is so fucking INCREDIBLY bad. It straight up ruins his ability to analyze the lynch. Imagine if he just busted out an analysis on me. At that point he could observe who will defend me in a subtle way and try to divert the lynch, and he could EASILY do that for 30-40 hours before claiming and ensuring I was lynched if he felt it necessary. This would give invaluable information that he now conveniently can't get. This day has officially become a battle between fishball the "DT" and me, and we are going to get very little analytical information from this day of posts.
Since we know fishball is not a dumbass, we know he clearly ignored what has been discussed and is known to be a much more valuable way to go about lynching a scum DT check.
Now on why I tried to encourage a town policy of DT's NOT claiming. Quite simply we cannot confirm DT checks, and even if we could with a Coroner type role with fishball's plan, that would just serve to out one of the most powerful town aligned roles in the game to try to confirm a detective. This can bury the town in shit for days.
In conclusion, claiming is painfully anti town and if he really was a DT he would realize that he couldn't be confirmed through a lynch of his suspect, and it would be more productive to pressure your check and draw inferences from it. You chose the shit path.
Now let's get to your claim. You are an alignment detective, it is such an easily faked claim. You get townie or mafia, which means since you are scum you know exactly what everyone's alignment is. Nice with the BC check too, since he is an important player to try to get on your side and can easily flip a lynch. Understand that Fishball can literally never be wrong about his checks in this case. He calls your alignment and then has you killed as you fight his check. We never know if he told the truth or not, unless both fishball and a theoretical coroner role survive until the end of the game which isn't going to happen. As I have said countless times in thread, any plan that revolves around the unknown is stupid and bound to fail, even if it is role that is probable to exist, we can't know if it has/will die.
To sum it up, an alignment detective is about as easy to fake as Veteran or Medic while being 30x more detrimental to town if gone unchecked, since his actions can literally change how entire days go in the game and we can't know if he is full of shit because there is never an actual flip.
Now let's get fishy's actual case on me. Its a real hard one to dismiss, but I will seriously try my best.
Fishball Wrote
Night 1 was a bit trickier. My goal was to check the less obvious targets, those that are in the gray area, but you know that something doesn't add up. I had a few candidates: Palmar, ilovejonn, and RebirthOfLeGenD. At the end, I picked RoL based on a my observation of his posting, the overall voting pattern for Day 1, and the fact that he took off his vote from VisceraEyes and broke the promise that he would his change his vote back; A key factor that Day 0 resulted in a no-lynch.
no u
[spoiler] But seriously, this is bullshit. You are telling me that I was one of the people who was pushing VisceraEyes the hardest toward the end and then decided at the last second I didn't want to kill my team mate?
This is a joke, and a bad, convoluted one at that. If I was really scum with Viscera I could simply have barely contributed to his case, or dismissed it entirely and voted to lynch LSB or Amber who both look like shit instead. But you are telling me that I aggressively attacked my own team mate, only to back off and not lynch him instead, which would make me look bad as fuck for forcing the town into a no lynch?
Yeah, sorry. It would never happen, and sorry I broke my promise, it was honestly a fuck up from a team monobattles game, if you would like I can even link you to my game list where it happened. I don't mind! I am mSLeGenD.251 on SC2 NA. Have fun. The game went from about 11:30ish to 12:15.
If any of you have played against me as mafia before, you know I play extremely meticulously and safe. I would have never fucked up like this as mafia by playing so recklessly and making myself so important for the Day 1 lynch. If I was mafia trying to save a scum buddy it was totally unnecessary and my actions for that day literally make zero sense in pushing Viscera so hard just to back off at the little while. I admit it was dumb of me to even try to change the lynch though, that was my only mistake, but that was seriously just because I thought Amber was a lot more scummy.
Oh and lastly, I like your use of colors in your post, I remember all the games where BC did that and just wrote massive walls of text with pretty colors, its a nice little trick to get people to side with you, a cheap trick. I know BC caught onto it too, I am sure he wasn't as blinded as you hoped by your "Hey BC is town!" check.
It's funny though, I F5ed the thread just in time last night, because I was just about to wrote up an analysis of how scummy LSB was, but clearly that is irrelevant now, since you just turned Day 2 into me fighting a bullshit DT claim.
On that note, let's get rid of this lying scum. I want everyone to read both of what we have posted and realize what makes more sense. Look at Fishball. He claims he is an alignment DT who checked me and BC and got scum on me, he comes up with a half assed plan using a theoretical role that may or may not be alive or even in the game. Then uses a half baked analysis on me to push his DT check.
Now look at how scummy every aspect of his plan is. An alignment DT is the most easily faked and most detrimental role to town as scum, that effect is amplified in this set up. The way he went about claiming was just stupid and doesn't provide any actual information since know everyone knows exactly what evidence fishball is supposedly working with, instead of thinking he just analyzed my behavior and applied pressure.
So boys, lets be objective, reasonable, and smart and kill this lying scum.
##vote Fishball
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On June 30 2011 23:20 Fishball wrote:It doesn't matter what he claims, as in my eyes, whatever he claims would be a lie. It was rather fortunate for him that he actually said a Medic saved him last night. If he claims that he is a Veteran, than obviously one of us is lying (not like he isn't already). If I'm lying, there there will be no argument. But a Mafia Veteran? Good luck with that. Now, he claims that a Medic saved him. No, I don't need the Medic to come fourth to prove the claim if a Medic did save him, but there are a few questions everyone might want to ask themselves first. - RoL has not exactly shown the strongest Town-aligned play in this game, in fact, alot of his stuff falls into the grey area. The "oops, I missed my vote" move he pulled at the end raised eyebrows. Why would a Medic, among all players, would choose to protect him? - Caller has claimed Vigilante and shot GMarshal at the start (I'm still pondering this). deconduo has also claimed Vigilante. So if what RoL says is true, there has to a third Vigilante or similar type of role out there that has Night KP. What is the likelihood of this? - You combine the two variables up top; What is the likelihood that RoL's claim is true? - Furthermore, do I seem to be making up all this fuss just to paint RoL red? That's all I have to say.
You know what, lets get serious. I think I have actually figured out exactly what happened and it makes perfect sense. I know I was floating somewhat in the gray area since I hadn't actually done a lot of legwork on day 1, and hell I don't even know what I was more surprised about, getting hit or getting protected.
But I think I figured it out. Since you are scum and you are using my voting no lynch accident as the thing that made me look scummy, and by association made VisceraEyes look scummy, meaning you basically lined up a vig/lynch for the next cycle as well as getting me offed.
But how could I explain that? Simple, VisceraEyes is the medic, who viewed me not killing him as being protown, and thus decided to protect me for not hammering him D1. He seemed really happy and eager to prove his townieness after being spared, and this is what I could come up with, to me its the only thing that makes sense to explain me surviving.
Considering someone died last night though, I am unsure of where the extra KP came from, I first guess would be that caller lied and is a compulsive/multi hit role and just tried to kill me, perhaps even a third party. He said something about suspecting me earlier in the night.
At the same time this would mean both me and scamp took a hit last night, which is odd. I would view the scamp hit as more likely a mafia hit trying to blue snipe. On the flip side I think this means I must have been hit by a third party. I think if I was caller and third party a good way of trying to play this game would be to try and kill the mafia off knowing that even if you hit a townie you are still helping your win conditions. This would also explain to me how caller is claiming to have multiple powers that we can't fully understand. This would also explain why he didn't give a fuck and just day 1'd Gmarshal, a generally very good town player who establishes himself really well in games as town which could be problematic later on if he called out caller on his trolly bullshit.
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On June 30 2011 23:58 Jackal58 wrote:
Perhaps I'm being naive or foolish but I'm going to take fishball at his word. GMarshal's plan for lynching the DT first revolved around preventing scum from making a false claim. He appeared to have enough support in his plan that I gotta believe Fishball is telling the truth. I can't see the scum team putting one of their own so close to a noose.
There is a really good reason in this particular case for lynching RoL first.
We can gamble on getting a ton of extra informaton, but only if you have faith in your Emperor.
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Actually we can confirm his checks. We can't confirm you though.
#vote: RebirthofLegend
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Anyway, I am heading to bed now.
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On July 01 2011 00:13 Amber[LighT] wrote:
Actually we can confirm his checks. We can't confirm you though.
#vote: RebirthofLegend
Cool dude, how do you propose that we confirm his checks? You can't, go back to lurking scum. I don't care if I need allies right now, I am not going to pretend you and LSB still aren't on my radar for playing like shit.
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On July 01 2011 00:13 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 23:58 Jackal58 wrote:
Perhaps I'm being naive or foolish but I'm going to take fishball at his word. GMarshal's plan for lynching the DT first revolved around preventing scum from making a false claim. He appeared to have enough support in his plan that I gotta believe Fishball is telling the truth. I can't see the scum team putting one of their own so close to a noose. There is a really good reason in this particular case for lynching RoL first. We can gamble on getting a ton of extra informaton, but only if you have faith in your Emperor.
Listen my Icelandic twin, doing this is stupid. Read what I wrote above, this is a gamble that won't pan out which is why we so heavily discouraged DT claims and even provided the exact way a DT should go about his successful role checks.
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EPT
