(Yes I do realize it was June the 4th, but nontheless, this deserves to be remembered)
From Wikipedia
The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 culminating in the Tiananmen Square massacre (referred to in China as the June 4 Incident, to avoid confusion with two other Tiananmen Square protests) were a series of demonstrations in and near Tiananmen Square in Beijing in the People's Republic of China (PRC) beginning on April 14. Led mainly by students and intellectuals, the protests occurred in a year that saw the collapse of a number of communist governments around the world.
The protests were sparked by the death of a pro-market, pro-democracy, and anti-corruption official, Hu Yaobang, whom protesters wanted to mourn. By the eve of Hu's funeral, 1,000,000 people had gathered on the Tiananmen square. The protests lacked a unified cause or leadership; participants included disillusioned Communist Party members and Trotskyists as well as free market reformers, who were generally against the government's authoritarianism and voiced calls for economic change and democratic reform within the structure of the government. The demonstrations centered on Tiananmen Square, in Beijing, but large-scale protests also occurred in cities throughout China, including Shanghai, which remained peaceful throughout the protests.
The movement lasted seven weeks, from Hu's death on April 15 until tanks cleared Tiananmen Square on June 4. In Beijing, the resulting military response to the protesters by the PRC government left many civilians dead or severely injured. The number of deaths is not known and many different estimates exist.There were early reports of Chinese Red Cross sources giving a figure of 2,600 deaths, but the Chinese Red Cross has denied ever doing so. The official Chinese government figure is 241 dead, including soldiers, and 7,000 wounded.
Following the violence, the government conducted widespread arrests to suppress protesters and their supporters, cracked down on other protests around China, banned the foreign press from the country and strictly controlled coverage of the events in the PRC press. Members of the Party who had publicly sympathized with the protesters were purged, with several high-ranking members placed under house arrest, such as General Secretary Zhao Ziyang. The violent suppression of the Tiananmen Square protest caused widespread international condemnation of the PRC government.
Number of deaths - Wikipedia * 10,000 dead (including civilians and soldiers) - Soviet Union. * 7000 deaths - NATO intelligence. * 4000 to 6000 civilians killed, but no one really knows - Edward Timperlake. * 2600 had officially died by the morning of June 4 (later denied) - the Chinese Red Cross. An unnamed Chinese Red Cross official estimated that, in total, 5000 people were killed and 30,000 injured. * According to a Time article, Amnesty International and some of the protest participants put the number of dead closer to 1,000. Other statements by Amnesty International have characterized the number of deaths as hundreds. * In excess of 3700 killed, excluding disappearance or secret deaths and those denied medical treatment - PLA defector citing a document circulating among officers. * 300 to 1,000 according to a Western diplomat that compiled estimates. * 400 to 800 plausible according to the New York Times' Nicholas D. Kristof. * A declassified NSA document indicated early casualty estimates of 180-500. * According to the Chinese government, the official figure is 241 dead, including soldiers, and 7000 wounded. * 186 named individuals confirmed dead as at the end of June 2006 - Professor Ding Zilin. But note that the cause of deaths of some of the individuals on Ding's list are not directly at the hands of the army. For example, at least one person had committed suicide after the June 4th incident.
I don't really know what to say, I just wish the actions of the chinese students 20 years ago will not forever be in vain. Hopefully some day China will experience a 'proper' democracy and a free press.
I doubt China will be a democracy any time soon. What China first needs to do is crack down on corruption, but that's impossible considering all the high-ranking officials are corrupt.
Ya my mom was actually there while pregnant with me. (Way to take precautions when you were pregnant mom...)
She says basically, the most important she and few others learned were that you can't force democracy. China in 1989 was not ready to be a democracy and it still isn't.
Interesting choice of Tank Man shot. One of the less common of the four.
Anyway, tragic anniversary, not only for the deaths, but for the wilful ignorance most Chinese authorities/people choose to exhibit towards it. Some students who were protesters are now businessmen engaged in Chinese government trade - people are so damn mercenary.
Props to Hong Kong for demonstrating. Props to Chinese netizens who elected to circumvent censors and post memorials.
Democracy is pretty unfeasible for a country as large as China. China also suffers from a large educational disparity, which makes for a bad electoral process.
well, based on past history, i dont think its a matter of democracy. i think it is more of running a country properly to maximize the welfare of the ppl.
when the economy is doing good, u dont hear any complaints about freedom. haha.
On June 06 2009 08:31 Last Romantic wrote: Interesting choice of Tank Man shot. One of the less common of the four.
Anyway, tragic anniversary, not only for the deaths, but for the wilful ignorance most Chinese authorities/people choose to exhibit towards it. Some students who were protesters are now businessmen engaged in Chinese government trade - people are so damn mercenary.
Props to Hong Kong for demonstrating. Props to Chinese netizens who elected to circumvent censors and post memorials.
On June 06 2009 09:00 dybydx wrote: well, based on past history, i dont think its a matter of democracy. i think it is more of running a country properly to maximize the welfare of the ppl.
when the economy is doing good, u dont hear any complaints about freedom. haha.
On June 06 2009 08:40 p3numbra wrote: Democracy is pretty unfeasible for a country as large as China. China also suffers from a large educational disparity, which makes for a bad electoral process.
India has a democracy and their population is almost the same size as China. They also suffer from a large educational disparity. Democracy seems to be working for them though.
On June 06 2009 08:40 p3numbra wrote: Democracy is pretty unfeasible for a country as large as China. China also suffers from a large educational disparity, which makes for a bad electoral process.
India has a democracy and their population is almost the same size as China. They also suffer from a large educational disparity. Democracy seems to be working for them though.
No India is shit atm corrupt as hell. Go ask some indian friends.
On June 06 2009 08:30 Titusmaster6 wrote: Ya my mom was actually there while pregnant with me. (Way to take precautions when you were pregnant mom...)
She says basically, the most important she and few others learned were that you can't force democracy. China in 1989 was not ready to be a democracy and it still isn't.
I think this is a very good point. I don't know much about history, but how did most democracies arise? Were they results of massive uprising or did they "evolve naturally."
Also, I don't feel that democracy will really solve anything in China because, as others have pointed out, the education and class disparities there are enormous. Nonetheless, full respect to the student protesters involved in the incident and those with the courage to speak out. Even though they didn't achieve their objects, they did make a difference. Hopefully, some day, the problems China faces can be resolved naturally and peacefully.
the china of that time was absolutely not ready for democracy. china today? i still think letting china have democracy will do it more harm than good. democracy assumes a certain level of responsibility from the people and some knowledge about the rest of the world and surroundings. letting people choose too much just makes them more susceptible to false information fed to them by other bullshit groups like falun gong or scientology etc (only two examples i could come up with right now but you get the idea).
china is around 4 times the population of the US and the people's heads are really kinda empty. filling them with random information and recruiting them into different organizations and different religions would be just way too easy. from there, turning them on the govt would be too easy as well. seen any videos of china? see all those people? imagine if you were able to convince only 1% of china to become suicide bombers. that's already a LOT of people and you'd have a SHITTY situation to take care of.
the students and politicians of that time wanted something that they could not have because the population isnt mature enough to make those decisions. the same way your parents made sure you ate proper food when you were a kid and not just chocolate and cookies, which is what you would choose if you were given "freedom" to choose whatever you wanted to eat. the same way you wouldn't go to school if you had the choice.
chinese people are extremely passionate about a lot of different things. if something as farfetched as falun gong has gathered as many followers as it has now, then the influx of more bullshit will surely be able to misguide a lot more people and convince them to make really bad decisions etc etc.
yes it was a tragedy that so many people died, but imo the govt did the correct thing for the greater good.
On June 06 2009 08:40 p3numbra wrote: Democracy is pretty unfeasible for a country as large as China. China also suffers from a large educational disparity, which makes for a bad electoral process.
India has a democracy and their population is almost the same size as China. They also suffer from a large educational disparity. Democracy seems to be working for them though.
On June 06 2009 10:44 pyrogenetix wrote: china is around 4 times the population of the US and the people's heads are really kinda empty. filling them with random information and recruiting them into different organizations and different religions would be just way too easy. from there, turning them on the govt would be too easy as well.
Yeah, massive state-sponsored censorship is really the way to go. People are too stupid for this "freedom" bullshit.
On June 06 2009 10:44 pyrogenetix wrote: yes it was a tragedy that so many people died, but imo the govt did the correct thing for the greater good.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.cnd.org/June4th/photos/mascr017.gif)
![[image loading]](http://www.peacebuttons.info/IMAGES/0421.1989_Tiananmen-Square.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.cnd.org/HYPLAN/yawei/june4th/bj10.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://ramblingsofpassion.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/051201_tiananmen-square_ex.jpg)
