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The State of the Swarm Report

Forum Index > BW General
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Arrian
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States889 Posts
January 13 2009 05:28 GMT
#1
Note: I understand this is super long. I've defined what each section is about so if you're only interested in one section you can read that. Also, I'd like to say that most of this is based on my counting and data sheets I assembled, which are subject to my error. If you see any mistakes, please point them out. Finally, in my last article, 2nd Triumvirate, I explained how indebted I am to the TLPD. Now, I would revise that to being equivalent to about 30 bailouts. TL rocks.

State of the Swarm


Truly, these are dark days for the swarm. The Taek-Bang Era has dawned. The Six Dragons have awoken. The arch-enemies of the Swarm have risen--2008 has seen the Golden Age of Protoss. (T)fantasy's hands and (T)iloveoov's genius have enabled the once retards of TvZ to start a Zerg genocide. Witness (T)Light, who was on a dramatic display of TvZ ineptitude, going 2-7 (dropping games to players of equally inept notoriety, like (Z)Hyuk and (Z)Rumble), and then beginning a remarkable reversal after the new mech build, going 5-0 (sparing (Z)RorO and (Z)FireFist the mech humiliation, but it doesn't take much more than a scary grimace to make them GG anyway). A number of new(ish) maps have turned out to be Zerg graveyards (Plasma [10-4 all opponents], Troy [12-5], Colosseum II [20-11], and Wuthering Heights, with only 1 victory for Zerg [43 TvTs!]). The Classic S2 has no Zergs left in contention. It seems like every Proleague match features the ritual sacrifice of a Zerg rookie, delivered handsomely into the jaws of (P)Bisu or (P)Kal, and each OSL group showcases a new Zerg humiliation at the ends of vZ assassins like (T)Hwasin and (T)UpMagiC.

But there is good news. (Z)Jaedong, and more surprisingly (Z)July, have brought home StarLeague wins. (Z)Luxury bested a dragon to win WCG, (Z)July gave an epic beat down to a dragon for a Golden Mouse, and the blood of (T)Flash (Classic S1), and two dragons ((P)Stork in the EVER OSL and (P)Kal in GOM MSL S4) are on (Z)Jaedong's hands.

2008 has been a year of challenges and struggles for the Zerg broods. The question is, was it a bad year for Zerg, or was it a good year? There's evidence on either side. This article attempts to give the background necessary to discuss that question. I have a number of questions I will be trying to answer here. I specifically want to know what the affect of the new mech build has had on TvZ (first spoiler), and what the Golden Age of Protoss means for the previously expected Z>P (second spoiler). I will also address the influx of Zerg rookies, what that means for the future of Zerg strategy, and who to bet on, and who not to (third spoiler). So here it is, the State of the Swarm report.

+ Show Spoiler +
That the new mech build is a TvZ cure-all is pure (T)fantasy.

In case you're wondering, the TLPDized fantasy is intended, and is a dumb play on.

Based on an aggregate of all games since the start of BroodWar to some time Last year, which is on a spreadsheet on my other computer, and based on conventional wisdom (Z>P, T>Z, P>T), the background rates of win percentages for the non-mirror matchups for Zergs are: ~60% ZvP, and ~44% ZvT. The ZvT figure is based on an aggregate of 36 entries in the individual leagues of TLPD.

So, compare this to the win percentages for the year 2008 through the games of January 10th, 2009, from all leagues: ZvP ~51.1%; ~ZvT 42%.

Compared to the background rates, this is dramatic. Particularly, the ZvP is startling, but consistent with the arrival of the Golden age of Protoss. The ZvT is interesting, in that the introduction of the mech build (while admittedly late) to the game in 2008, has seemed to manifest itself in a short amount of time in ZvT. Let me examine this further by taking a look at the ZvT win percentages for leagues leading up to the introduction of the mech build, to see if the mech build in fact is in the cause of the discrepancy in the TvZ rate:



* 2008 Proleague R2 - 6-3
* 2008 Minor League - 12-12
* 2008 Proleague - 21-35
* STX Masters - 4-2
* 2008-'09 Proleague (Only games pre-10-17-08) - 5-9
* ODT 2007 (2008 games) - 6-2
* GOM MSL S4 - 12-13
* Bacchus OSL - 6-7
* OSC 2008 - 3-7
* 14th Survivor - 7-13
* Star Invitational - 5-5
* EVER OSL - 6-4
* Arena MSL - 6-15
* WCG Korea - 4-4
* Incruit OSL - 7-11
* 15th Survivor - 5-13
* Club Day MSL - 7-5
* Classic Season 2 - 6-12


This comes out to a total ZvT record for all 2008 games pre-mech build to be: 128-172, or ~42.6%. So, it is clear that 2008 was already a year of decline in ZvT win rates before the introduction of the mech build. Now, let us juxtapose this with the win percentages of games after the mech build. Here are the figures for all games played in TvZ from 10-17-08 (the date of the (T)fantasy v (Z)GGPlay series) onward to January 10th:

* 2008-'09 Proleague (post 10-17-08) - 41-55
* (P)Classic Season 2 - 12-16
* 16th Survivor - 8-16
* Batoo OSL - 5-8


The total ZvT record for all games post 10-17-08 is, then: 66-95, or ~41%. Now, I have not bothered to sift through every TvZ VOD post-10-17-08 to sort out which ones used a mech build or some variant thereof, and then count the wins and losses. Pragmatically speaking, I haven't that kind of time, nor the inclination, for as much as I love the matchup, I think the mech build has ruined its beauty and made it too similar to ZvP. I also find sifting through the TLPD and playing with numbers much more appealing than watching 161 VODs.

All of that is to say, I cannot claim for sure that the mech build has resulted in the ~1.6% dip in the Zerg win rate. I can claim that with even less certainty because I have no idea what caused the Zerg win rate to drop those few points from its background rate in the first place. There are any number of explanations, because the win rate was already falling. If I was asked what the most likely cause of the the post 10-17-08 dip was, I would say that it was pure chance. This, however, is a point of debate.

I understand that I have neglected to establish what kind of a move is statistically significant in BroodWar between years/events/tournaments. This is most pragmatically measured by looking at the number of games affected. In this case, the 1.6% translates to ~2.5 games. Clearly, this is insignificant. The forced conclusion, of this, then, is that the mech build has not had a dramatic affect on Zerg win rates, and thus has not had a dramatic affect on the matchup. Now, again, you can cry fowl on me because I have admitted myself that I have not looked through every VOD, I cannot know for sure if every single player who has gone mech has not lost (or, for that matter, won). While this may be true, my goal was to establish if the mech build has had a dramatic affect on the matchup as a whole, which it provably has not.

With that having been said, it is probably a better conclusion to say that there are too few data to know for sure. If Zerg win rates continue to decline, and the mech build gains in popularity and use, perhaps it will be possible to claim that the mech build has resulted in fewer games won for Zerg. At present, however, it is safe to claim either no affect, or too few data.


+ Show Spoiler +
Last Stand

What toll has the Golden Age of Protoss taken on the Zerg swarm? First, look at the background rate vs. the present rate: 60% v 51%. That's over the year that this change has happened. First, I'll do the short answer. A difference of approximately 9%, over the course of 426 games played translates to 38.34 more games going in favor of Protoss than Zerg. This is quite significant. There is perhaps no better example for this than the Classic Season 2, where below average TvZ (59.6%) more than combined and compensated with ZvP (43.1%) to completely eliminate the Zerg from the league.

With that question easily and quickly answered, my curiosity has turned to the dragons, free, (P)Kal, (P)JangBi, (P)Stork, (P)Bisu, and (P)BeSt. Is is possible that the rampaging affects of these giants has combined for a good part of the change? It doesn't seem so far fetched. These players are staples of individual leagues and see considerable time in Proleague. The Club Day MSL fielded 5 of them in the round of 8, and one became the champion. The Incruit OSL saw 3 of them (and only one Zerg) in the round of 8. All of them made it to the Ro16 in the Classic S2, and 3 of them still remain.

Here are some facts:

* (P)Bisu is 7-1 in Proleague vs. Zergs, steamrolling (Z)YellOw[ArnC], (Z)by.hero, (Z)Luxury, (Z)Calm, and (Z)EffOrt. His only loss was to (Z)Jaedong (and there's no shame in that).
* (P)Stork is 3-2 in Proleague vs. Zergs, defeating (Z)GGPlay, (Z)ZerO, and (Z)Luxury and losing to (Z)Calm and (Z)type-b.
* (P)BeSt is 4-3 in Proleague vs. Zergs, winning over (Z)Shark, (Z)ZerO, (Z)RorO, and (Z)sAviOr. (P)BeSt is also the weakest dragon against Zerg.
* (P)Kal is 7-2 in Proleague vs. Zergs, most notably defeating (Z)Luxury and (Z)Jaedong.
* (P)JangBi is 2-3, losing to (Z)EffOrt, (Z)Shine[kaL] and (Z)hyvaa.
* free is 6-1, only losing to (Z)Saint.


Combined, the dragons are 29-12 in Proleague against Zerg. That's an astonishing 70%. Looking down the list, however, it does not seem so good to combine these win rates. After all, they range from an astonishing 87.5% for (P)Bisu to a mediocre 40% for (P)JangBi. With such a range, to combine them seems somewhat dishonest. But let's also look at their individual league results vZerg starting with the Incruit OSL, Club Day MSL, the Classic S2, Lost Saga MSL and Batoo OSL. Essentially, the leagues start with and since they have been called dragons.

* (P)Bisu is 8-5.
* (P)Stork is 5-1.
* (P)BeSt is 4-2.
* (P)Kal is 4-2.
* (P)JangBi is 6-0.
* free is 4-2.


Look at these against the Proleague stats. The performances of the dragons appear complementary between individual and team leagues. The dismal (P)JangBi in Proleague is at 100% winrate in individual leagues. (P)Stork's middling 60% is now ~83%. The least changed is (P)BeSt, whose PvZ continues to be his worst matchup.

Once again, combining them, the dragons are 31-12, an even more astonishing 72%. Okay, so the dragons are ripping and tearing through Zergs like paper. That much is true. But it's not enough to claim for sure that the dragons are the exclusive cause, or even the leading cause, for a 9% drop in Zerg win rates. What needs to be established for this to be claimed with accuracy is that Protoss who are not the dragons are struggling just as much (or hopefully worse) against Zerg.

The trouble here is that I could easily doctor this to make my point. I could pick a bunch of rookies who, in particular, have sucked against Zerg and say 'Well, damn, looks like I'm right again!' I'm going to resist that urge, and say that I'm going to pick as many Protoss players as I can who have played in at least two of the leagues that the dragons have, and compare their results to the dragons. The idea is that the exact competition is somewhat controlled, and the circumstances (maps, pressure situations) are also controlled. Also, that would establish that the players are not bad players, as they would have had to qualify for at least two of the leagues. It turns out there are a couple of players for whom these standards are true: (P)BackHo, (P)Much, (P)Tester, and (P)HerO.

* (P)BackHo is 3-4.
* (P)Much is 2-2.
* (P)Tester is 2-3.
* (P)HerO is 2-3.


I don't really think that I need to enumerate the differences in the record and percentages (for the record, it's 42.8%). So how about players who aren't spectacular in the individual leagues? Like, (P)Say, (P)Pusan and (P)SangHo? Well, (P)Pusan is 4-0 this ProLeague, but among his victims are two ACE players, the Zerg problem child (Z)Kwanro, and (Z)hyvaa. (P)SangHo is 8-5 in his last 13 vZs, a 61% win rate. I could spend my time disparaging (P)SangHo's victims too, but I don't feel so much of a need to. How about (P)Anytime and (P)Rock, two other staples of Proleague? Admittedly, they are both slumping (although (P)Rock's committment to mediocrity has always been life-long). (P)Anytime is sitting at 1-3 this Proleague and 7-3 through the year, and (P)Rock is a dismal 4-8 since January of '08.

The only stone left unturned, then, are the Protoss rookies. These I would very much like to investigate, but being that they are rookies, they have played far too few games (a) for their win percentages to be accurate representations of their skill in the matchup and (b) for their wins to contribute to an overview of the matchup.

So I'm left to explain the success of (P)Anytime and (P)SangHo in 2008 if I want to say that it is the dragons in the end that have caused the dip in Zerg win rates, and then one more thing to explain after that, which I'll get to. Now, explaining (P)SangHo: 8-5, defeating acknowledged ZvP travesties (Z)MuMyung, (Z)RorO (twice), and (Z)Study. He also defeated (Z)JoJoBa in (Z)JoJoBa's first recorded games. (P)SangHo's impressive victories are numbered 2, defeating (Z)Jaedong and (Z)ZerO. (P)SangHo also had the benefits of Plasma, Byzantium, Colosseum II, and Medusa. (P)SangHo also managed to lose to (Z)OversKy, newbie (Z)JoJoBa, Yarnc's less than impressive ZvP, and (Z)great. Now I'm not going to try to and establish (P)SangHo's ZvP success as pure circumstantial, lucky, or purely attributed to favored maps and poor opponents. To claim that would be entirely untrue. However, it is important to note the disparity between (P)SangHo's winrate and the dragon's, 61% to ~71%.

Fortunately, (P)Anytime's success is more easily explained. His 6 game PvZ winstreak to start 2008 starred a dramatically slumping (Z)sAviOr, complete newbie (Z)besga, (Z)ZerO, and a vP failure in (Z)Kwanro as his victims. Twice he slaughtered (Z)sAviOr, once on Baekmagoji, once on the horribly imbalanced Katrina. Complete newbie (Z)besga fell victim as much to (P)Anytime's pushes as he did to Loki II's sickening 4-9 ZvP record. (P)Anytime did beat (Z)oDin fair and square though.

Now, the tour de force of this explanation is the following. I've counted the number of games won and lost by the dragons pre- and through 2008. It turns out that the dragons brought home exactly 28 more games for Protoss in 2008 than they had from years before. Recall that 38.34 is the number of games more brought in for Protoss in 2008 than in years before. You'll notice that 28 is not 38.34. However, I never pretended to establish that the dragons are the singular cause for the drop in zerg winrates. Given that other players, with some exceptions, have been returning rather middling results, and the dragons have increased their PvZ winrates by approximately 10%, it is not outrageous to say that 6.5% (28's relation to 38.34 in respect to the 9% difference) of the 9% drop in win rates could be exclusively the result of the Protoss dragons. Now, I cannot claim this with perfect accuracy. Doubtless, the results of other Protoss players pre- and through 2008, in sufficient number, could possibly be made to show an increase of 38 wins. I understand that I have nothing concrete to connect these 28 wins with the requisite 38 extra in question, but it is my strong suspicion that this is the case. However, I am open to other opinions on this matter.

Tangentially related, I want to introduce the hope of the Swarm to end this era of tyrants. I present to you: The Dragon Slayers: (Z)July: 5-2 (3-0 v Best, 2-2 v (P)Bisu) in the last year, and (Z)Jaedong 17-7 (damn). Also tangentially related, to end the era of vicious acorns, (Z)maGma has blessedly volunteered for the task. (Z)maGma isØ-Ø lifetime against acorns.


+ Show Spoiler +
The Insight of Casey Stengel

Casey Stengel was a baseball player, famous for saying this: "See that kid over there? He's 20 years old. In 10 years, he's got a chance to be a star. Now, see that other kid over there? He's 20 too. In 10 years, he's got a chance to be 30."

If there's one thing that's struck me during the Proleague over 2008, it's the sheer number of new faces for the Zerg race. Names like (Z)by.hero, (Z)type-b, (Z)EffOrt, (Z)by.great, (Z)Shine[kaL], (Z)hyvaa, (Z)HoeJJa, (Z)Juni, (Z)ZerO, (Z)RorO, and (Z)s2 have all made their debuts recently and are quickly becoming staples of the rosters of their respective teams. Even more players, like (Z)Clay, (Z)Robbie, (Z)Modesty, and others have played their first games in 2008. This may not be unique among the new blood entering the scene, but it does have many implications for the future of the Swarm. Each one of the players named have had success, many of them have had more failures in 2008 than successes, but almost every career upon entering the scene becomes that way.

So who should you Liquibet on? Who should you cheer for? Who will make your eyes bleed as you watch? Unlike the rest of this article, the following section is mostly my opinion. But, before I get to the newbies, let's look over the veterans. There are some things that may surprise you. Let me start with this one.

1. (Z)GGPlay was miserable in 2008. His sour record (25-26 since the start of the year) was clearly one of the reasons why CJ dumped him (although he has improved somewhat since joining the Stars).

2. (Z)July still kicks butt. His 10-4 Proleague record is one of the more impressive records for Zerg right now, even if perceptions are that (Z)Calm has him trumped. For the record, (Z)July went 33-24 in '08. (Z)Calm went 30-25. How about that?

3. (Z)OversKy is perplexing. With everyone on ACE constantly failing around him, this guy has managed to go 16-18 in the year. He's trumped (P)SangHo, (Z)ZerO, (Z)Jaedong, (T)Canata, and (T)FrOzean twice. I hope he keeps playing after his Airforce days, because I really like him. Note: I called (Z)GGPlay miserable for a better win percentage than (Z)OversKy. I know this. It's because (Z)OversKy is on a crappy team with reduced practice everything, and (Z)GGPlay is on a good team with excellent practice everything. It's the factor of expectations. It doesn't surprise anyone that (Z)MuMyung sucks.

4. (Z)Jaedong went (I only counted once, and there were a lot of games. I may be off by one or two) 81-41 in 2008. Most valuable Zerg? You bet.

5. It breaks my heart to say it, but the twins are over-hyped. (Z)Luxury went 49-39 in '08, (Z)YellOw[ArnC] a sad 28-28. (Z)YellOw[ArnC] is carrying OGN on his back? Try (T)Leta.

6. There's absolutely nothing to say about (Z)sAviOr in 2008. That story belongs to 2009. I'm still holding on to this despite two losses...

That takes care of the old guys, basically the only Zergs who've seen more than a few Proleagues. I'm being honest about that. Most of the Zergs seeing a lot of games these days are newbies. Some are good. Some will be good. Some are bad, but might be good. But most are very, very bad. Let's start with the good, the five I'm calling up.

1. (Z)EffOrt. CJ's new workhorse. They're putting everything they have into this kid. His record in 2008 was very promising, 22-15. This guy has not been given an easy workload, and he's improving rapidly. Look at his games from Classic 1 to Classic 2. He's only going to get better.

2. (Z)ZerO. This kid is the reaL deal, and I'm calling it--he's going to be the Zerg (T)Leta soon. What he really needs is mentoring, and I don't think (Z)GGPlay is the guy to do it. In a bit, a couple months maybe, he's going to explode.

3. (Z)by.hero. His games against (P)Bisu were impressive, but he's quietly been doing work for some time now. He's in both leagues, and more important he has the guidance of (Z)July and (Z)Calm. He won't go much farther this year, I don't think. Next year, though, look out.

4. (Z)Saint. (Z)Saint isn't exactly new, but winning is certainly new to him. This is my hunch bet. He's going to get better, and he's going to gain confidence. MBCGame is putting a lot into him. All that playing time is going to translate into considerable improvement, I think. Of course, there's plenty of disagreement.

5. (Z)type-b. Last Starleague go-round, I didn't believe it. He seemed like a one-hit wonder (circa (Z)Thezerg), but his Proleague performance has been...unexpected. Unlike (Z)Thezerg, who decided to drink a giant can of how to suck at StarCraft, (Z)type-b took his lucky Starleague runs and won some Proleague games against good players, like (P)Stork, (T)Hwasin, (T)Light, (T)Really, and (Z)YellOw[ArnC]. He may not be great now, but he'll get there.

Now for the five down, down, down.

1. (Z)s2. I just hate it when this guy plays. It's like being repeatedly propositioned by Richard Simmons for 'cuddling lessons.' SKT rolls over and accepts a loss in the Zerg slot whenever (Z)s2 is in the lineup. Of course, then SKT buys (Z)Thezerg, which means they accept a more expensive loss in the Zerg slot.

2. (Z)Thezerg. Did you see how excited he was when he beat (P)LuCifer? It's like he couldn't believe it himself that he'd actually won a game. To tell the truth, neither did I. Don't forget the 1-9 he went 8-19-08 and 12-19-08. Wins against that sack of medicority (Z)Shark and Mr. Minor League (P)LuCifer aren't going to save him from his (Z)Destiny at the bottom of the SKT Zerg lineup. What I don't get is why they never play (Z)GoRush. He actually made it out of the qualifiers!

3. (Z)RorO. 2-11 between 11-16-08 and 12-24-08. But I can understand WeMade's incredible desire to try someone else out when (Z)keke is their only other option.

4. (Z)keke. See a pattern? The guy who stinks, and the guy brought in to replace him. While (Z)keke isn't as bad as the others on this list, since he has recieved more playing time, he's done nothing with it, and still continued his relentless march to being nothing exceptional. His main selling points were his Neo Requiem ZvT wins. Whoop. Dee. Doo.

5. (Z)FireFist. 10-11 isn't going to get you a spot in the lineup on a team with the arguably better (Z)Haran, (Z)815 and (Z)HoeJJa, and then the definitely better (Z)Luxury. (Z)FireFist isn't going to suffer from getting worse, but is rather going to suffer from not being played for being worse than (Z)Haran and (Z)815 and not as young and promising as (Z)HoeJJa.

Don't sue me if I'm wrong, but feel free to disagree.

So that's that. The State of the Swarm report. The mech build hasn't decimated the Zerg, but the Golden Age of Protoss has. The Zerg old guard are putting up unconvincing results, excepting a few, and as such, I expect that the new promising Zerg players are going to lead the Swarm out of this troubling time in StarCraft history. Cross your fingers for (Z)EffOrt for OSL champion. I am.


Writersator arepo tenet opera rotas
xBTx
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Canada542 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-13 05:36:13
January 13 2009 05:35 GMT
#2
Very interesting information, although in my opinion you should put titles above your spoilers too.
stuffing feathers up your butt doesnt make you a chicken
Kuja900
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States3564 Posts
January 13 2009 05:46 GMT
#3
If (Z)July or (Z)Jaedong didnt exist imagine how abysmal the years zvp % would be. They are going have to carry the swarm by themselves with maby some assistance from (Z)EffOrt.
OMG you nasty gurl
gk_ender
Profile Joined October 2008
United States717 Posts
January 13 2009 06:00 GMT
#4
Very good write up, its about time someone put this data out there. This is exactly the type of write ups that need to be made more often good job Arrian.
Taek Bang
p4NDemik
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States13896 Posts
January 13 2009 06:12 GMT
#5
The TvZ analysis was expected, but nevertheless very insightful. Mech play has it's advantages, but it isn't the cause for TvZ imbalance lately. it's purely that we don't have enough quality Zergs to combat the hordes of Terrans out there. Here's to hoping that will change though.
Moderator
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8100 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-13 06:32:59
January 13 2009 06:32 GMT
#6
I think a Zerg is going to win either the MSL or the OSL. The whole dragon thing is pretty blown out of proportion. Although, it is scary that as of right now only 2 zergs are in the Ro16 in the OSL right now (although that is only because July, Jaedong, and the twins haven't played in their group yet).


For a while, Roro looked fucking GOOD(esp. in ZvZ). I dunno what happened feel bad for him (same with thezerg, those OSL games vs hwasin were fucking PIMP)

I'd say Effort is most likely to be the "next big" zerg, but I don't see Jaedong giving up his spot any time soon. It seems every time JD gets into a mini-slump of his, he re-emerges even stronger than before.


Personally I'm hoping that under the guidance of July, By.hero becomes the "next big" zerg :D (or July wins a 4th OSL)
Free Palestine
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
January 13 2009 07:04 GMT
#7
Wow, this was a very informative post and great read. The factual information you put in along with the opinionated statements at the end are really nice. This is a great contribution analyzing this period for Zerg right now. The 5 "new up and coming Zergs" you put are really the 5 that I am the most excited about, and I'm really hoping for EffOrt to do well (although for some reason my intuition tells me he doesn't have that certain "star" aura about him that makes a great player and keeps them at the top). Hopefully I'm wrong though. I also can't wait for Oversky to come out of ACE and return to playing on a normal team if he is going to, his surprisingly good results for his situation are impressive, and he exhibits some very excellent, entertaining games oftentimes. A very clever and creative player.

The 9% drop in ZvP win rate is absolutely stunning, and 72% win rate for the dragons is... -_-;; I really hope that Zerg will be able to get out of this slump period Thank you so much for this analysis, it was a very VERY great read!
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CursOr
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States6335 Posts
January 13 2009 07:22 GMT
#8
I love playing Zerg :D
Yes, we need some kind of anti-dragon build. Im sure a good look at some July and Jaedong replays will reveal a lot. Im, again, going to be hoping against hope for sAviOr vs Bisu. you neve know when youre going to see something amazing in starcraft :D
CJ forever (-_-(-_-(-_-(-_-)-_-)-_-)-_-)
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
January 13 2009 07:33 GMT
#9
Wow, I must say, very well written. I love the writing style... I envy you T__T

Makes me want to play Zerg, kekekeke
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42689 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-13 07:43:48
January 13 2009 07:35 GMT
#10
I still believe it's the ridiculous TvZ winrate which is hurting them most. The dragons are some of the best players in the world right now but they're not unbeatable. Good zergs, and I mean julyish not just Jaedong, can take games off them. The problem is that no zergs but Jaedong survive the terran favoured maps right now because every half decent terran can beat all but the best zerg.

But sick writeup anyway. The stats were new to me and very interesting. Learned a lot.
Thanks man.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Dark_Luster
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Korea (South)438 Posts
January 13 2009 07:42 GMT
#11
LIVE FOR THE SWARM
#1 Horangee fan
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
January 13 2009 07:45 GMT
#12
On January 13 2009 16:35 Kwark wrote:
I still believe it's the ridiculous TvZ winrate which is hurting them most. The dragons are some of the best players in the world right now but they're not unbeatable. Good zergs, and I mean julyish not just Jaedong, can take games off them. The problem is that no zergs but Jaedong survive the terran favoured maps right now because every half decent terran can beat all but the best zerg.

But sick writeup anyway. The stats were new to me and very interesting. Learned a lot.
Thanks man.


every zerg player except jaedong is making horrific newbie mistakes

effort is playing a shitload better on average than yarnc or luxury, despite the fact that he is nowhere near as good as those two play sometimes

it's not the maps, the current top zergs are fucking terrible
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
number1gog
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1081 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-13 07:51:53
January 13 2009 07:49 GMT
#13
I think July's -I mean by.hero's- games versus Bisu were the only recent ray of light in an otherwise dark zerg time. As much as I'm a CJ fan I'm just not convinced by Effort. I'm worried his back to back ace match losses will deflate him too much.

Hopefully we'll start to see some individual league magic out of the STX zergs and Jaedong.
5sz6sz7sz1a2a3a4a kwanrollllllled
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
January 13 2009 07:59 GMT
#14
Cool post
I've checked the stats myself as well and checked some sample points. Notably, since Jaedong came to power the ZvT winrate dropped off rapidly. But ZvT suffered immensely from December (they were something like 2-14 for the first half against terran of something). But they made up ground prior to the mech build and immediately after the mech build and in the latter half of december.

ZvP winrate climbed in the late part of the year iirc and splitting the year in half show a number of players turning it around (namely Yarnc)
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
SoMuchBetter
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia10606 Posts
January 13 2009 08:27 GMT
#15
On January 13 2009 16:45 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2009 16:35 Kwark wrote:
I still believe it's the ridiculous TvZ winrate which is hurting them most. The dragons are some of the best players in the world right now but they're not unbeatable. Good zergs, and I mean julyish not just Jaedong, can take games off them. The problem is that no zergs but Jaedong survive the terran favoured maps right now because every half decent terran can beat all but the best zerg.

But sick writeup anyway. The stats were new to me and very interesting. Learned a lot.
Thanks man.


every zerg player except jaedong is making horrific newbie mistakes

effort is playing a shitload better on average than yarnc or luxury, despite the fact that he is nowhere near as good as those two play sometimes

it's not the maps, the current top zergs are fucking terrible

i agree with this sentiment 100%. its not just a problem of the maps or the builds, its that the current non-jaedong zerg progamers are a bunch of wimps and its been the case since savior's days
AUSSIESCUM
TeamLiquid eSTROgeneral #1 • RIP
Kuja900
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States3564 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-13 09:09:37
January 13 2009 09:05 GMT
#16
Julys osl run where is probably where alot of the zvp inflation came from considering he won like what 15 zvps during the osl?

I really think the hope for the swarm lies in (Z)EffOrt, (Z)Jaedong and the STX zergs. Another potential option is (Z)sAviOr coming out of his slump atleast enough to remember the basics of zvp jeez >65% zvp zergs dont lose to (P)Young, (P)Spear or even (P)BeSt

EDIT: Just to clarify i did intentially leave out the twins i just dont see promise in them i think theyl both finish their careers with no titles and around a 50-55% win rate, then again for this day in zerg age thats very good sad to say.
OMG you nasty gurl
Choros
Profile Joined September 2007
Australia530 Posts
January 13 2009 09:09 GMT
#17
In my observation the Zerg winrate has been in decline ever since the fall of savior. Protosses were now using much more effective builds (thanks revolutionist) and Terrans were becoming increasingly proficient against the traditional savior 3 hatch muta. I recall an interview from a while back in which savior said that Terrans were slowly getting harder and harder to beat.

What we have seen in my opinion is the other races taking the initiative away from Zerg forcing them to be the ones struggling to adapt and since then it has been once thing after another the most recent being ofcourse the Fantasy build but also the +1 Zelot Archon push which is tailored to counter the fast spire/den build which was pioneered by Jaedong most particually in the final against stork, which is effective against Cosair heavy play that dominated the period.
Kuja900
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States3564 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-13 09:12:05
January 13 2009 09:11 GMT
#18
On January 13 2009 18:09 Choros wrote:
In my observation the Zerg winrate has been in decline ever since the fall of savior. Protosses were now using much more effective builds (thanks revolutionist) and Terrans were becoming increasingly proficient against the traditional savior 3 hatch muta. I recall an interview from a while back in which savior said that Terrans were slowly getting harder and harder to beat.

What we have seen in my opinion is the other races taking the initiative away from Zerg forcing them to be the ones struggling to adapt and since then it has been once thing after another the most recent being ofcourse the Fantasy build but also the +1 Zelot Archon push which is tailored to counter the fast spire/den build which was pioneered by Jaedong most particually in the final against stork, which is effective against Cosair heavy play that dominated the period.


Ok its just important to say i really dont think Jaedong pioneered anything, personally i find him extremely unoriginal but he just does it better than almost anyone else.
OMG you nasty gurl
Choros
Profile Joined September 2007
Australia530 Posts
January 13 2009 09:14 GMT
#19
On January 13 2009 17:27 SoMuchBetter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2009 16:45 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
On January 13 2009 16:35 Kwark wrote:
I still believe it's the ridiculous TvZ winrate which is hurting them most. The dragons are some of the best players in the world right now but they're not unbeatable. Good zergs, and I mean julyish not just Jaedong, can take games off them. The problem is that no zergs but Jaedong survive the terran favoured maps right now because every half decent terran can beat all but the best zerg.

But sick writeup anyway. The stats were new to me and very interesting. Learned a lot.
Thanks man.


every zerg player except jaedong is making horrific newbie mistakes

effort is playing a shitload better on average than yarnc or luxury, despite the fact that he is nowhere near as good as those two play sometimes

it's not the maps, the current top zergs are fucking terrible

i agree with this sentiment 100%. its not just a problem of the maps or the builds, its that the current non-jaedong zerg progamers are a bunch of wimps and its been the case since savior's days

I agree that we have seen some pretty weak play generally but I think that the poor play is greatly exacerbated and made increasingly obvious but the brutal efficiency and deadly nature of the play being employed but their adversaries at this point which no one has been able to deal with. Jaedong dealt with Cosair heavy play but Protoss moved on without a hitch. Even Jaedong today can only win through mind blowing micro but without the strategic advantage to underpin that even he has been struggling. Hopefully some Zerg will carry out a much needed counter revolution soon.
Choros
Profile Joined September 2007
Australia530 Posts
January 13 2009 09:15 GMT
#20
On January 13 2009 18:11 Kuja900 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2009 18:09 Choros wrote:
In my observation the Zerg winrate has been in decline ever since the fall of savior. Protosses were now using much more effective builds (thanks revolutionist) and Terrans were becoming increasingly proficient against the traditional savior 3 hatch muta. I recall an interview from a while back in which savior said that Terrans were slowly getting harder and harder to beat.

What we have seen in my opinion is the other races taking the initiative away from Zerg forcing them to be the ones struggling to adapt and since then it has been once thing after another the most recent being ofcourse the Fantasy build but also the +1 Zelot Archon push which is tailored to counter the fast spire/den build which was pioneered by Jaedong most particually in the final against stork, which is effective against Cosair heavy play that dominated the period.


Ok its just important to say i really dont think Jaedong pioneered anything, personally i find him extremely unoriginal but he just does it better than almost anyone else.

You could be right the inovation that I credit him for is simply going for fast spire and den at the same time so you go straight into scourge to help with the initial cosair than into mass hydra. Your right that this is far from the counter revolution Zergs need.
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