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Most of us have seen the rare PvT where a few dwebs are able to disable a ton of tanks and completely turn the outcome of a battle and the game. Why is it that stasis is the norm and dweb is the rarity?
Negatives of Dweb:
-AoE (area of effect) is slightly smaller? (Although they are pretty close, not sure on this)
-It doesn't last as long
-Spell range is shorter? (Not sure on this either)
-Costs 125 energy instead of 100
-Corsairs cannot cast recall or cloak your units
Positives of Dweb:
-Corsairs are faster and cheaper than arbiters.
-Corsairs build very quickly and once the ability is researched it is easy to have a few with enough energy to cast some dwebs
-While tanks are covered not only can they not attack but they are still vulnerable as well.
-2 corsairs cost much less gas than one arbiter (albeit more minerals) so gas can be spent on additional templars/upgrades
-Easy transition to carriers if desirable.
I'm considering trying to use dweb more often in my PvTs and seeing how it goes.
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I guess I should elaborate exactly how I'm envisioning them being used. What I'm seeing is a game where the T opts to take their 3rd and do a 2/1 timing push at which time the protoss hopes to have 3 corsairs and their disruption web research about to be completed. Of course it would be nice if the T doesn't know about the sairs but even if they are aware (as we see evidenced in the arbiters use in todays games) it doesn't do much to diminish their efficacy.
From there on it remains a useful tool throughout the game and has the added bonus of being able to kill the units instead of just freezing them. So you can punish a tank clump with dweb+storm instead of just having to camp by it and wait for the stasis to wear off or move on to their base and have the tanks hit your reinforcements when they unfreeze.
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Basically arbiters without energy still provide some usefullness (cloaking, attacking ground units(lol), and absorbing damage) while corsairs, if they dont have 125 energy, are useless. Basically I would put corsair PvT in the same catagory of queens ZvT. I guess they would be good in theory (better then not having them) but there are way more things you could be doing with your time and thought. Because of zeal heavy army if you are running off of 3-4 gas a protoss you don't really have anything to spend gas on unless you make arbiters AND corsairs.
Nony used corsairs against me in PvT and did some expo break on blue storm it was pretty gay =/
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I'm thinking along the lines of the effectiveness. Say you Dweb an area and your zealots run to tanks, the zealots don't attack. And if the terran unseiges and retreats, you may get stuck inside your own dweb when you attempt to move forward.
But could work. I'll try this soon.
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Statics freeze scv for the win w00t
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idk. i mean, i LOVE dweb, its really fucking useful and it provides tech to carriers(fleet beacon) but like someone mentioned, even energy arbiters are still a bitch. cloaking your army vs terran is a bitch. i mean, if your corsairs get empd = useless. arbiter emp'd = still can cloak. yeah it costs more gas but fleet beacon cost gas too.
also if you do variations of the BO, you could just get citadel and dont need templar archives. save more gas for more corsairs perhaps?
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Anyone with good micro can easily move out of the dweb and keep attacking when stasis freezes them completely for the battle basically, and gets you free kills when they're unfrozen. And arbiters have recall, which is also used occasionally.
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United States717 Posts
Corsairs can't attack ground! Need those arbiters to attack!
No, but really. Corsairs can't do anything in PvT. D-web is good, but why not instead of building a corsair, build a templar and storm. Sounds stupid to go arbiters and cosairs at the same time to stasis and d-web, but sounds genius to go arbiters and templars at the same time to statis and storm the rest.
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One other negative about dweb is that you can't just run zealots in there to take out the tanks and go for splash damage.
On January 06 2009 11:50 dhe95 wrote:
Anyone with good micro can easily move out of the dweb and keep attacking when stasis freezes them completely for the battle basically, and gets you free kills when they're unfrozen.
TvP the terran army is pretty much static, especially the tanks.
And arbiters have recall, which is also used occasionally
I think this is probably a more important reason. Recalls give you even greater map control. just the "threat" of recall will force terrans to be more conservative and not overextend.
Overall, arbiters IMO are just more well-rounded, and easier to use.
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On January 06 2009 11:50 dhe95 wrote:
Anyone with good micro can easily move out of the dweb and keep attacking when stasis freezes them completely for the battle basically, and gets you free kills when they're unfrozen. And arbiters have recall, which is also used occasionally.
Well I do agree with some of the other arguments against sairs but even with good micro by the time the T unsieges and moves their tanks the damage is done for the most part. Not to mention the possibility of casting another, new d-web.
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Well, youre also forgetting that dweb can be dodged after the spell is cast. For that reason you will need more corsairs than you would need arbiters to be effective so the "cheaper" argument loses its validity.
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Stasis lasts like 60 seconds, dweb is like... 20? Or so...
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20 sounds like a lot, so does 60 :S
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On January 06 2009 12:02 Cloud wrote:
Well, youre also forgetting that dweb can be dodged after the spell is cast. For that reason you will need more corsairs than you would need arbiters to be effective so the "cheaper" argument loses its validity.
I don't think this is really a problem because like I said in my last post, in the time it takes to unsiege and move the tanks the desired effect of only fighting part of the terran army at a time will be accomplished.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
How does zealot AI work when say tanks in front are dWebbed? do they just get stuck and confused, requiring the toss to micro them harder? (which could evolve to be a standard part of gameplay)
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You can stasis vessels. You can't Dweb vessels though.
I'm pretty sure everything else relevant has been mentioned already. I guess you could argue that you can use corsairs to kills vessels, but then they would just get goliaths like they normally do when there are shuttles/arbiters.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I like to play with sair/goon a lot in PvT, but I think there are three main problems with the build:
1. In mid-game, you can't really afford either corsairs or arbiters without possibly getting run over by a timing push. But in late-game, when you can afford to build either corsairs or arbiters, you'd usually want to choose arbiters because of their cloaking and recall abilities.
2. Arbiters are gas-heavy and mineral-low. A typical P army is mostly minerals with little gas; thus the actual cost of arbiters isn't that much.
3. Stasis lasts a lot longer than dweb. A vult-heavy army that lays a lot of mines everywhere can delay your goons long enough such that you can't get very many shots off before the web runs out.
Not to say that I don't think everyone should try playing sair/goon. It's a really fun strategy and livens up an otherwise pretty standard matchup.
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United States3824 Posts
I feel like it might have something to do with that whole cloaking thing that aribters do
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Corsairs:
-Energy takes forever
-No use except dweb
-Dweb doesn't last long
-fleet beacon + upgrade for d-web + cost of makin corsairs = alot
Arb:
-Provides cloak
-Stasis reduces T army
-Recall
-Mineral friendly
-Game Changing unit
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On January 06 2009 12:08 Jonoman92 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 12:02 Cloud wrote:
Well, youre also forgetting that dweb can be dodged after the spell is cast. For that reason you will need more corsairs than you would need arbiters to be effective so the "cheaper" argument loses its validity. I don't think this is really a problem because like I said in my last post, in the time it takes to unsiege and move the tanks the desired effect of only fighting part of the terran army at a time will be accomplished.
And the fact that it can be dodged makes it useless vs goliaths and vultures. which are usually the forward units.
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EPT
