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corsairs work well as turret bait and will take all fire from shuttle should you decide to send in 1 shuttle and 1 corsair into the terrans empty main, for a storm drop. even worse should you drop 2 reavers and take all his depotes.
corsairs can also kill vessels better than arbiters should you see any vessels.
corsairs aren't completely useless after being emp'ed after all.
On January 06 2009 12:52 Cloud wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 12:08 Jonoman92 wrote:On January 06 2009 12:02 Cloud wrote:
Well, youre also forgetting that dweb can be dodged after the spell is cast. For that reason you will need more corsairs than you would need arbiters to be effective so the "cheaper" argument loses its validity. I don't think this is really a problem because like I said in my last post, in the time it takes to unsiege and move the tanks the desired effect of only fighting part of the terran army at a time will be accomplished. And the fact that it can be dodged makes it useless vs goliaths and vultures. which are usually the forward units.
dweb and stasis both work best if you use them on the tanks, near the back of the army. you want to do this so you dont create walls of stasised units which would hurt more than help. you also wouldn't wan to web the front units, kill them, and then run your goons into your webs and watch them do nothing.
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Another thing that goes against D-Web is that when your your zealots are in it, they can't attack either so you lose a part of your army as well.
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Corsairs
- takes 125 energy to use
- dweb only lasts around 20 seconds, but pwns turrets as well as tanks
- fleet beacon is also needed for carriers
- corsairs are cheap, fast, and can shoot down dropships(only if you have a lot, which i don't think is a good idea)
Arbiter
- statis costs 100 energy and lasts a minute
- Provides cloak
- can recall
- little mineral cost
- slower then corsair and takes forever to make
- affects game a lot
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Zealots can't attack under the D web D:
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
i swear to god when i read this thread name my eyes crossed and i pulled back my head with a snarl of disgust rofl.
what i want to answer is "because dweb would actually require skill to use"
but ill be nice and just say because it takes a gigantic amount of apm, more energy, corsairs do nothing else for you, it costs a huge amnt of minerals (fleet beacon + multiple sairs, this would give u less ground units which the arb needs) and dweb runs out SO FAST whereas stasis basically doesnt run out until the terran is dead.
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Even if DWeb > Stasis, Recall and Cloak > ?????... Corsairs have no other use in PvT besides Dweb and that is not enough to make them worth it.
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I think the two best arguments so far were
On January 06 2009 12:21 Fontong wrote:
You can stasis vessels. You can't Dweb vessels though.
and
On January 06 2009 11:36 Raithed wrote:
i mean, if your corsairs get empd = useless. arbiter emp'd = still can cloak. yeah it costs more gas but fleet beacon cost gas too.
But thats just what I think.
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I think a lot of players aren't used to using corsairs, so they instinctively reject the unit as a viable unit in PvT. I've seen it in games paired up with carriers as an effective anti-wraith combo, but so far not in a supporting role with a traditional protoss ground army. The cost of this thing is insane (for the same money, high templar and arbiters would be more effective. However, in the late game if you were going for a heavy attack on the terran army, 3-4 sairs with dweb could effectively disable tanks and other units for a crucial few seconds, allowing the protoss army to close in and storm / flank the terran army and destroy it.
As previously stated, requires high apm that could be better spent on storming and flanking. Not to mention, the arbiter already does a good job of stasis AND provides good cloaking / recall abilities. If you have the money for a fleet beacon, why not just get the arbiter tribunal.
About the zealots not being able to attack under dweb, that's moot. They mine-drag and can actually make it to their targets, so when the dweb wears off, they start pounding on the tanks and the tanks splash damage on each other. Beautiful stuff, if it's actually pulled off. Replays please!
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I would like to point out that under dweb you can still kill them unlike under stasis
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On January 06 2009 13:38 Artosis wrote:
i swear to god when i read this thread name my eyes crossed and i pulled back my head with a snarl of disgust rofl.
what i want to answer is "because dweb would actually require skill to use"
but ill be nice and just say because it takes a gigantic amount of apm, more energy, corsairs do nothing else for you, it costs a huge amnt of minerals (fleet beacon + multiple sairs, this would give u less ground units which the arb needs) and dweb runs out SO FAST whereas stasis basically doesnt run out until the terran is dead.
^^
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Main problem is what GrandInquisitor already mentioned = mineral heavy.
Even the tech is mineral heavy.
You need those minerals for dragoons and zealots.
Considering you will want templar archives anyway(for more upgrades and storms) Arbiter tech is more Natural.
Additional unmentioned positives of Corsairs would be low supply - half of the Arbiter, that makes 4 webs vs 2.5 statis. Plus web goes very well along with storm, unlike statis.
Ideally you want to have all three Templars, Arbiters and Corsairs.
Webing front units, Statising units behind and Storming way through.
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United States44409 Posts
Because stasis is good and dweb is bad. I mean jeez, why are we having this discussion. What's next, why sairs and not scouts? Why marines and not ghosts?
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On January 06 2009 23:46 Kwark wrote:
Why marines and not ghosts?
:O You know why we use marines and not scouts!?
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I guess I should also mention some of the benefits of dweb as opposed to stasis:
* They are much earlier on the tech path and can come into play much sooner than arbiters. If you have a solid early-game advantage, teching to dweb as a substitute for arbs might end the game quicker
* Units under dweb can be attacked
* The counter isn't as simple as focus fired goliaths. Increased number of corsairs + faster movement speed means it's harder for goliaths to pick them off quickly
* Corsairs are sometimes easier to control, since they won't run off and attack turrets on their own
A sair/goon strategy ends up being pretty gas-intensive, since you're essentially swapping zealots for corsairs. You should transition into it from a low-gas early game build, make one stargate, and pump some corsairs while quickly researching web + argus jewel. You should probably also forgo the citadel/archives since you won't have much use for zealots, and use the extra minerals on expansions/cannons instead. Late-game, this sets you up well for a carrier transition since you already have the beacon.
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On second thought, it may be really effective if you catch the Terran off-guard. One thing is that you may need a few stargates and a ton of gas if you go arbiter with corsairs. But the Terran might think you go carriers and gets more gols.. which may backfire your plan. :/
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If you are a high APM player there is no reason you can't do Corsairs at the C to B level, just dont expect your micro to pull you through battles where 100 wasted gas can come back and bite you on the ass later, and even in the B rated matchups you better hope to god that you have your BO refined and that you are positive you are going carriers even if Terran does the "Flash Build" but I dont think you'll see it at the pro level....
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why do people always isolate spellcasting abilitys? why not just dweb + statis if you have the eco but if you dont have the eco youd obviously go arbiter only, the most negative aspect about dweb tho is your zeals become kinda useless but goon/temp + web is pretty sick especially if you add a few arbs into your unit mix, i could see this type of style easily working on maps like blue storm (imagine dwebing turrets for your recalls)
dweb is really strong but people just dont use it because they havnt seen any top class progamer use it yet, one day someone is going to come along and is gonna start dwebing in his pvt's until it becomes mainstream and were going to call it the new pvt revolution
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I believe dweb has a lot potential in it and in the hands of a high apm user it can be extremely useful, but it should not be a substitute to arbiters. I remember seeing ASuKa-jR[S.O] use them in a lot of his replays a few years ago, but they never really decided the fate of the game in any way.
One problem being their placement in the tech tree as they never really are the best way to invest your minerals, I myself love to use them in the rare occassion I play PvT but its purely for entertainment.
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hmmm good thread..
however the apm necessary for "good" use of dweb is AT LEAST 150-200 level. On the pro level it could be done...but with the new flash double armory into goli's, a large arbi/goon/zeal/ht army is much much more deadly. (I mean..really? A sair/goon/zeal/ht army vs a 3/3 tank goli army?) Also, ANY units under dweb are fucked. Your attacking zeals will become "dumb". So that will mean for full effectivness, you need a full goon/ht army...NOT soo good against the 3/3 terran metal push.
Besides, besides dweb what use will the sairs have? better idea to go scouts, upgrade speed and range and then transition into carriers...
I was kidding
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wtf does dweb have to do with apm? u just have to press 1 key on your keyboard, d and t + targeting tanks shouldnt be that hard.. dont make things so scientific and complex for no reason just to make your posts look better
all you have to do is practice webbing so you get used to it, it has nothing to do with apm
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EPT
