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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On January 09 2009 13:12 dyos wrote: eh. Watch flash vs the rock @ medusa and go pwn that kid. flash is the reason protoss stopped doing 2 base carriers. please give me a link for this game ^^ | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On January 09 2009 09:14 Grobyc wrote: I'm sure people have posted many reasons so I won't read them all, but I just wanted to say: I got raped TvP last week late game when he went carriers. I naturally went mass gols off 8-9 facts that i already had but he would just fly around everywhere killing my bases abusing the cliffs (Lost Temple) and when I get to my base to save it he already target fired my CC and I couldn't keep up in minerals. So after his 3rd time of doing that I went to counter his main but he had 4-5 sairs sitting there with like a dozen cannons and when i started to kill all his cannons he just dwebed me like fucking 10 times until his carriers arrived. I needlessly threw away like 30 gols and 10 tanks doing that and he just rolled me over after. No fucking joke, that was insane. Idk about ground army + sairs though PvT but carriers with sairs rape monkey balls if you use them effectively... I think that dweb can be a ton more effective when it's used on lt, just because as P you need to defend against clifffing as well. I hate LT now because of the cliffs, but when I do play I go 2 base carrier every single game. | ||
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HooHa!
United States688 Posts
They would probably be ahead in upgrades and unit count. Might as well try. | ||
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dyos
United States108 Posts
It was actually flash vs ryan[shield] my B. They look the same imo. flash is the terran player who started using the fast upgrades and mass goliaths against carrier builds that were popular. Ever since then, hardly and protoss goes 2 base carrier, ESPECIALLY against flash. LT however, has ridges that aid carriers. Alternatively, you can use cloaked wraiths. Sometimes the protoss forgets to bring observers. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Other benefits i was thinking of, its good jump off to carriers as already mentioned. Good at scouting, can ignore missile turrets basically unlike observers to get a look in T's bases. I'm going to make a build order and try this out, i think the main point is the element of surprise. | ||
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latent
United States428 Posts
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Nytefish
United Kingdom4282 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On April 09 2009 06:40 latent wrote: So here's another question... why don't protoss users ever recall their units into the middle of a group of tanks? You can bypass all the vultures, and if you send another group of units to attack from the outside you can keep those vultures occupied. Heck, you might even get lucky and score some powerful land mine drags. First the arbiters won't make it that close, a good late game terran will have at least around 12 goliaths to target fire every arbiter he sees and ofc vessels to EMP them. Late game when you have that massive amount of units and arbiters to recall the terrans army will consist of a INSANE number of tanks which will kill every single unit in the recall in a single volley. The units will be clumped after the recall and they will all die. Also you NEED stasis to size down the terrans army to the size where a protoss army can actually handle it. | ||
KwarK
United States44414 Posts
On April 09 2009 06:40 latent wrote: So here's another question... why don't protoss users ever recall their units into the middle of a group of tanks? You can bypass all the vultures, and if you send another group of units to attack from the outside you can keep those vultures occupied. Heck, you might even get lucky and score some powerful land mine drags. Because your units are way too clustered. Any mines will rape you harder than they do him because you'll have more units on the recall spot that he does, tank splash will obliterate you and you simply can't get enough units in fast enough. It works if the T is bad and leaves himself open to it (no vessel or turret near and clumped tanks) but a competent T can deal with it. As for the dweb question. It's workable but simply not needed to win with standard play. It's like the queen question in ZvP. While arbiters and carriers are so effective there really is no situation that demands you build corsairs. And the 125 energy cost and tendency to clump makes it very fragile. Those corsairs love to stack and one EMP makes the game over if you rely on dweb. Arbiters are also more flexible. If the T spreads his tanks and slow pushes forwards then dweb won't give you a push break, it will at best allow you to buy time. While stasis is no more useful its situations like that where recall comes into play. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On January 14 2009 12:45 dyos wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N2bmjqFPB4&feature=channel_page It was actually flash vs ryan[shield] my B. They look the same imo. flash is the terran player who started using the fast upgrades and mass goliaths against carrier builds that were popular. Ever since then, hardly and protoss goes 2 base carrier, ESPECIALLY against flash. LT however, has ridges that aid carriers. Alternatively, you can use cloaked wraiths. Sometimes the protoss forgets to bring observers. watching a protoss that isnt bisu play flash is like trying to have sex with a woman with no vagina | ||
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dhe95
United States1213 Posts
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latent
United States428 Posts
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KwarK
United States44414 Posts
Your friend doesn't know why either because he's as bad as you are. | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On April 09 2009 06:56 arb wrote: watching a protoss that isnt bisu play flash is like trying to have sex with a woman with no vagina well flash has no vagina either I guess he didn't lose any units in that game besides his scouting SCV | ||
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latent
United States428 Posts
On April 09 2009 07:45 Kwark wrote: You asked the question, why people don't recall onto tanks. Everybody answered 'because tanks do ridiculous splash and recall clumps your units' and you just repeat the same question again? Your question has been answered correctly, by the time recall is a tactical threat the terran will have sufficient tanks that a single volley will splash kill everything. His formation will be so deep that most the tanks won't already have a target and will therefore instantly fire on your recalled units. Your friend doesn't know why either because he's as bad as you are. Everybody? Huh? You were the only one who directly answered my question. My friend almost went pro back when he was in high school in Korea. I always ask him about strategies and decision-making in pro SC matches. My university has a ton of Koreans, and whenever they hold a Starcraft tournament they ask him whether he'll be participating, because they know he will win if he does. Trust me, he's much better than you will ever be. My point was that if you recall your zealots into the tanks, there won't be enough room for them to all recall in one tiny little spot. They'll end up slightly spread out, and with leg speed they'll spread out among the tanks even more. The splash will annihilate the tanks. Even losing 12-15 zealots is worth it if you can avoid the mines and destroy 5 or more tanks. | ||
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KwarK
United States44414 Posts
On April 09 2009 07:58 latent wrote: Everybody? Huh? You were the only one who directly answered my question. My friend almost went pro back when he was in high school in Korea. I always ask him about strategies and decision-making in pro SC matches. My university has a ton of Koreans, and whenever they hold a Starcraft tournament they ask him whether he'll be participating, because they know he will win if he does. Trust me, he's much better than you will ever be. My point was that if you recall your zealots into the tanks, there won't be enough room for them to all recall in one tiny little spot. They'll end up slightly spread out, and with leg speed they'll spread out among the tanks even more. The splash will annihilate the tanks. Even losing 12-15 zealots is worth it if you can avoid the mines and destroy 5 or more tanks. Stop playing terrans who clump 5 or more tanks together late game without having science vessels. Also On April 09 2009 06:46 Zoler wrote: First the arbiters won't make it that close, a good late game terran will have at least around 12 goliaths to target fire every arbiter he sees and ofc vessels to EMP them. Late game when you have that massive amount of units and arbiters to recall the terrans army will consist of a INSANE number of tanks which will kill every single unit in the recall in a single volley. The units will be clumped after the recall and they will all die. Also you NEED stasis to size down the terrans army to the size where a protoss army can actually handle it. On April 09 2009 06:42 Nytefish wrote: Because there's usually goliaths to shoot your arbiters down and/or vessels to EMP you. | ||
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gameguard
Korea (South)2132 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka27179 Posts
On April 09 2009 07:58 latent wrote: Everybody? Huh? You were the only one who directly answered my question. My friend almost went pro back when he was in high school in Korea. I always ask him about strategies and decision-making in pro SC matches. My university has a ton of Koreans, and whenever they hold a Starcraft tournament they ask him whether he'll be participating, because they know he will win if he does. Trust me, he's much better than you will ever be. Then go ask your "almost pro" friend these questions if he is so good. You obviously don't need teamliquid's help. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
On April 09 2009 08:14 Kwark wrote: Stop playing terrans who clump 5 or more tanks together late game without having science vessels. This kind of thinking is wrong. Terrans will clump up tanks without vessels. Watch a few pro TVPs. You'll see it. There's not enough time to do everything right. People always assume their opponent will play perfectly. He won't. And he can't. Even progamers make dumb mistakes. You can't be thinking "PVP: when I send my reaver to drop him, he's going to spot it with an observer, move all his probes perfectly, send his goons to counter me, then smash my ground army before I can bring my reaver back... so the correct move is to have my shuttle dance around my base!" If you assume you're enemy is perfect, you'll never take advantage of him when he's not. Expect flaws. And learn how to exploit them when you see them. And I'm not endorsing latent or any other clown. And I'm certainly not ripping on you. I'm just frusterated that players, and even pro players, don't push the game forward because they fear perfection. I mean, if you're not afraid of rushing, don't be afraid to "late-game rush." That is, use a strategy that can be defended if your opponent plays it right but which can shock him and make him lose. Idra's the examplar; he wants to be able to win every time even if his opponent plays perfectly; he wants to solve starcraft. But all that happens is Trap expos like crazy and smashes him. Congrats, you can get the late game against any toss player in the world. Theoretically, you could never lose a game. Did that thought comfort you when Trap had 20 gates? | ||
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