Most of us have seen the rare PvT where a few dwebs are able to disable a ton of tanks and completely turn the outcome of a battle and the game. Why is it that stasis is the norm and dweb is the rarity?
Negatives of Dweb: -AoE (area of effect) is slightly smaller? (Although they are pretty close, not sure on this) -It doesn't last as long -Spell range is shorter? (Not sure on this either) -Costs 125 energy instead of 100 -Corsairs cannot cast recall or cloak your units
Positives of Dweb: -Corsairs are faster and cheaper than arbiters. -Corsairs build very quickly and once the ability is researched it is easy to have a few with enough energy to cast some dwebs -While tanks are covered not only can they not attack but they are still vulnerable as well. -2 corsairs cost much less gas than one arbiter (albeit more minerals) so gas can be spent on additional templars/upgrades -Easy transition to carriers if desirable.
I'm considering trying to use dweb more often in my PvTs and seeing how it goes.
I guess I should elaborate exactly how I'm envisioning them being used. What I'm seeing is a game where the T opts to take their 3rd and do a 2/1 timing push at which time the protoss hopes to have 3 corsairs and their disruption web research about to be completed. Of course it would be nice if the T doesn't know about the sairs but even if they are aware (as we see evidenced in the arbiters use in todays games) it doesn't do much to diminish their efficacy.
From there on it remains a useful tool throughout the game and has the added bonus of being able to kill the units instead of just freezing them. So you can punish a tank clump with dweb+storm instead of just having to camp by it and wait for the stasis to wear off or move on to their base and have the tanks hit your reinforcements when they unfreeze.
Basically arbiters without energy still provide some usefullness (cloaking, attacking ground units(lol), and absorbing damage) while corsairs, if they dont have 125 energy, are useless. Basically I would put corsair PvT in the same catagory of queens ZvT. I guess they would be good in theory (better then not having them) but there are way more things you could be doing with your time and thought. Because of zeal heavy army if you are running off of 3-4 gas a protoss you don't really have anything to spend gas on unless you make arbiters AND corsairs.
Nony used corsairs against me in PvT and did some expo break on blue storm it was pretty gay =/
I'm thinking along the lines of the effectiveness. Say you Dweb an area and your zealots run to tanks, the zealots don't attack. And if the terran unseiges and retreats, you may get stuck inside your own dweb when you attempt to move forward.
idk. i mean, i LOVE dweb, its really fucking useful and it provides tech to carriers(fleet beacon) but like someone mentioned, even energy arbiters are still a bitch. cloaking your army vs terran is a bitch. i mean, if your corsairs get empd = useless. arbiter emp'd = still can cloak. yeah it costs more gas but fleet beacon cost gas too.
also if you do variations of the BO, you could just get citadel and dont need templar archives. save more gas for more corsairs perhaps?
Anyone with good micro can easily move out of the dweb and keep attacking when stasis freezes them completely for the battle basically, and gets you free kills when they're unfrozen. And arbiters have recall, which is also used occasionally.
Corsairs can't attack ground! Need those arbiters to attack!
No, but really. Corsairs can't do anything in PvT. D-web is good, but why not instead of building a corsair, build a templar and storm. Sounds stupid to go arbiters and cosairs at the same time to stasis and d-web, but sounds genius to go arbiters and templars at the same time to statis and storm the rest.
One other negative about dweb is that you can't just run zealots in there to take out the tanks and go for splash damage.
On January 06 2009 11:50 dhe95 wrote: Anyone with good micro can easily move out of the dweb and keep attacking when stasis freezes them completely for the battle basically, and gets you free kills when they're unfrozen.
TvP the terran army is pretty much static, especially the tanks.
And arbiters have recall, which is also used occasionally
I think this is probably a more important reason. Recalls give you even greater map control. just the "threat" of recall will force terrans to be more conservative and not overextend.
Overall, arbiters IMO are just more well-rounded, and easier to use.
On January 06 2009 11:50 dhe95 wrote: Anyone with good micro can easily move out of the dweb and keep attacking when stasis freezes them completely for the battle basically, and gets you free kills when they're unfrozen. And arbiters have recall, which is also used occasionally.
Well I do agree with some of the other arguments against sairs but even with good micro by the time the T unsieges and moves their tanks the damage is done for the most part. Not to mention the possibility of casting another, new d-web.
Well, youre also forgetting that dweb can be dodged after the spell is cast. For that reason you will need more corsairs than you would need arbiters to be effective so the "cheaper" argument loses its validity.
On January 06 2009 12:02 Cloud wrote: Well, youre also forgetting that dweb can be dodged after the spell is cast. For that reason you will need more corsairs than you would need arbiters to be effective so the "cheaper" argument loses its validity.
I don't think this is really a problem because like I said in my last post, in the time it takes to unsiege and move the tanks the desired effect of only fighting part of the terran army at a time will be accomplished.
How does zealot AI work when say tanks in front are dWebbed? do they just get stuck and confused, requiring the toss to micro them harder? (which could evolve to be a standard part of gameplay)
You can stasis vessels. You can't Dweb vessels though.
I'm pretty sure everything else relevant has been mentioned already. I guess you could argue that you can use corsairs to kills vessels, but then they would just get goliaths like they normally do when there are shuttles/arbiters.
I like to play with sair/goon a lot in PvT, but I think there are three main problems with the build:
1. In mid-game, you can't really afford either corsairs or arbiters without possibly getting run over by a timing push. But in late-game, when you can afford to build either corsairs or arbiters, you'd usually want to choose arbiters because of their cloaking and recall abilities.
2. Arbiters are gas-heavy and mineral-low. A typical P army is mostly minerals with little gas; thus the actual cost of arbiters isn't that much.
3. Stasis lasts a lot longer than dweb. A vult-heavy army that lays a lot of mines everywhere can delay your goons long enough such that you can't get very many shots off before the web runs out.
Not to say that I don't think everyone should try playing sair/goon. It's a really fun strategy and livens up an otherwise pretty standard matchup.
On January 06 2009 12:02 Cloud wrote: Well, youre also forgetting that dweb can be dodged after the spell is cast. For that reason you will need more corsairs than you would need arbiters to be effective so the "cheaper" argument loses its validity.
I don't think this is really a problem because like I said in my last post, in the time it takes to unsiege and move the tanks the desired effect of only fighting part of the terran army at a time will be accomplished.
And the fact that it can be dodged makes it useless vs goliaths and vultures. which are usually the forward units.
corsairs work well as turret bait and will take all fire from shuttle should you decide to send in 1 shuttle and 1 corsair into the terrans empty main, for a storm drop. even worse should you drop 2 reavers and take all his depotes. corsairs can also kill vessels better than arbiters should you see any vessels. corsairs aren't completely useless after being emp'ed after all.
On January 06 2009 12:02 Cloud wrote: Well, youre also forgetting that dweb can be dodged after the spell is cast. For that reason you will need more corsairs than you would need arbiters to be effective so the "cheaper" argument loses its validity.
I don't think this is really a problem because like I said in my last post, in the time it takes to unsiege and move the tanks the desired effect of only fighting part of the terran army at a time will be accomplished.
And the fact that it can be dodged makes it useless vs goliaths and vultures. which are usually the forward units.
dweb and stasis both work best if you use them on the tanks, near the back of the army. you want to do this so you dont create walls of stasised units which would hurt more than help. you also wouldn't wan to web the front units, kill them, and then run your goons into your webs and watch them do nothing.
Corsairs - takes 125 energy to use - dweb only lasts around 20 seconds, but pwns turrets as well as tanks - fleet beacon is also needed for carriers - corsairs are cheap, fast, and can shoot down dropships(only if you have a lot, which i don't think is a good idea)
Arbiter - statis costs 100 energy and lasts a minute - Provides cloak - can recall - little mineral cost - slower then corsair and takes forever to make - affects game a lot
i swear to god when i read this thread name my eyes crossed and i pulled back my head with a snarl of disgust rofl.
what i want to answer is "because dweb would actually require skill to use"
but ill be nice and just say because it takes a gigantic amount of apm, more energy, corsairs do nothing else for you, it costs a huge amnt of minerals (fleet beacon + multiple sairs, this would give u less ground units which the arb needs) and dweb runs out SO FAST whereas stasis basically doesnt run out until the terran is dead.
On January 06 2009 12:21 Fontong wrote: You can stasis vessels. You can't Dweb vessels though.
and
On January 06 2009 11:36 Raithed wrote: i mean, if your corsairs get empd = useless. arbiter emp'd = still can cloak. yeah it costs more gas but fleet beacon cost gas too.
I think a lot of players aren't used to using corsairs, so they instinctively reject the unit as a viable unit in PvT. I've seen it in games paired up with carriers as an effective anti-wraith combo, but so far not in a supporting role with a traditional protoss ground army. The cost of this thing is insane (for the same money, high templar and arbiters would be more effective. However, in the late game if you were going for a heavy attack on the terran army, 3-4 sairs with dweb could effectively disable tanks and other units for a crucial few seconds, allowing the protoss army to close in and storm / flank the terran army and destroy it.
As previously stated, requires high apm that could be better spent on storming and flanking. Not to mention, the arbiter already does a good job of stasis AND provides good cloaking / recall abilities. If you have the money for a fleet beacon, why not just get the arbiter tribunal.
About the zealots not being able to attack under dweb, that's moot. They mine-drag and can actually make it to their targets, so when the dweb wears off, they start pounding on the tanks and the tanks splash damage on each other. Beautiful stuff, if it's actually pulled off. Replays please!
On January 06 2009 13:38 Artosis wrote: i swear to god when i read this thread name my eyes crossed and i pulled back my head with a snarl of disgust rofl.
what i want to answer is "because dweb would actually require skill to use"
but ill be nice and just say because it takes a gigantic amount of apm, more energy, corsairs do nothing else for you, it costs a huge amnt of minerals (fleet beacon + multiple sairs, this would give u less ground units which the arb needs) and dweb runs out SO FAST whereas stasis basically doesnt run out until the terran is dead.
Main problem is what GrandInquisitor already mentioned = mineral heavy. Even the tech is mineral heavy. You need those minerals for dragoons and zealots. Considering you will want templar archives anyway(for more upgrades and storms) Arbiter tech is more Natural.
Additional unmentioned positives of Corsairs would be low supply - half of the Arbiter, that makes 4 webs vs 2.5 statis. Plus web goes very well along with storm, unlike statis.
Ideally you want to have all three Templars, Arbiters and Corsairs. Webing front units, Statising units behind and Storming way through.
Because stasis is good and dweb is bad. I mean jeez, why are we having this discussion. What's next, why sairs and not scouts? Why marines and not ghosts?
I guess I should also mention some of the benefits of dweb as opposed to stasis:
* They are much earlier on the tech path and can come into play much sooner than arbiters. If you have a solid early-game advantage, teching to dweb as a substitute for arbs might end the game quicker * Units under dweb can be attacked * The counter isn't as simple as focus fired goliaths. Increased number of corsairs + faster movement speed means it's harder for goliaths to pick them off quickly * Corsairs are sometimes easier to control, since they won't run off and attack turrets on their own
A sair/goon strategy ends up being pretty gas-intensive, since you're essentially swapping zealots for corsairs. You should transition into it from a low-gas early game build, make one stargate, and pump some corsairs while quickly researching web + argus jewel. You should probably also forgo the citadel/archives since you won't have much use for zealots, and use the extra minerals on expansions/cannons instead. Late-game, this sets you up well for a carrier transition since you already have the beacon.
On second thought, it may be really effective if you catch the Terran off-guard. One thing is that you may need a few stargates and a ton of gas if you go arbiter with corsairs. But the Terran might think you go carriers and gets more gols.. which may backfire your plan. :/
If you are a high APM player there is no reason you can't do Corsairs at the C to B level, just dont expect your micro to pull you through battles where 100 wasted gas can come back and bite you on the ass later, and even in the B rated matchups you better hope to god that you have your BO refined and that you are positive you are going carriers even if Terran does the "Flash Build" but I dont think you'll see it at the pro level....
why do people always isolate spellcasting abilitys? why not just dweb + statis if you have the eco but if you dont have the eco youd obviously go arbiter only, the most negative aspect about dweb tho is your zeals become kinda useless but goon/temp + web is pretty sick especially if you add a few arbs into your unit mix, i could see this type of style easily working on maps like blue storm (imagine dwebing turrets for your recalls)
dweb is really strong but people just dont use it because they havnt seen any top class progamer use it yet, one day someone is going to come along and is gonna start dwebing in his pvt's until it becomes mainstream and were going to call it the new pvt revolution
I believe dweb has a lot potential in it and in the hands of a high apm user it can be extremely useful, but it should not be a substitute to arbiters. I remember seeing ASuKa-jR[S.O] use them in a lot of his replays a few years ago, but they never really decided the fate of the game in any way.
One problem being their placement in the tech tree as they never really are the best way to invest your minerals, I myself love to use them in the rare occassion I play PvT but its purely for entertainment.
hmmm good thread.. however the apm necessary for "good" use of dweb is AT LEAST 150-200 level. On the pro level it could be done...but with the new flash double armory into goli's, a large arbi/goon/zeal/ht army is much much more deadly. (I mean..really? A sair/goon/zeal/ht army vs a 3/3 tank goli army?) Also, ANY units under dweb are fucked. Your attacking zeals will become "dumb". So that will mean for full effectivness, you need a full goon/ht army...NOT soo good against the 3/3 terran metal push.
Besides, besides dweb what use will the sairs have? better idea to go scouts, upgrade speed and range and then transition into carriers...
wtf does dweb have to do with apm? u just have to press 1 key on your keyboard, d and t + targeting tanks shouldnt be that hard.. dont make things so scientific and complex for no reason just to make your posts look better
all you have to do is practice webbing so you get used to it, it has nothing to do with apm
actually this is the most important thing, when the tosses get arbiters they also try to reduce the scanner/vessel count drastically so random dt's can do dmg at expantions, and an elimination war could be won due to cloacked units and lack of detection.
also arbiter is a followup of the templar tech, so you might get an additional advantage just from going for these disablers
Comparing dweb and stasis one on one isn't too good way to determine which is more effective because you'll have so much more disruption webs to cast if you concentrate on corsairs, but with arbiters you'll only have a few stasis.
Still arbiters offer far more than corsairs do overall and corsairs position in the tech tree being what it is doesn't help either.
On January 07 2009 02:26 iamtt1 wrote: wtf does dweb have to do with apm? u just have to press 1 key on your keyboard, d and t + targeting tanks shouldnt be that hard.. dont make things so scientific and complex for no reason just to make your posts look better
all you have to do is practice webbing so you get used to it, it has nothing to do with apm
You obviously have more than one corsair at a time to micro and casting all of them seperately while microing other units and macroing in your base can really be apm intensive, if you disagree you certainly aren't microing or macroing properly while in a battle. Protoss isn't just 1a2a3a you should know that..
It is more micro intensive than arbiters because of the amount of them you have and because of the time they're effective you have to cast them just seconds before engaging while with arbiters you can wait while rearranging your army for w/e reasons if you feel the need to do so.
You usually have a lot more corsairs than arbiters, and it's much more tedious to go through searching which sairs have energy and such. Plus, you have to literally be attacking as you are webbing, else the webs will wear off (unlike with stasis, which you can cast first and then begin your attack).
pvz requires 10x more multitasking then dwebbing/statising in a pvt, i though toss was an easy race anyways, any idiot can play it 1a2a3a right? i guess pressing v t all game + s + must be alot harder
It's so obvious why sairs are no viable option in PvT. Arbs are better on so so many occasions.. Additionally: 1 arbs can already be good. 2 or 3 arbs are a fucking huge deal and can stasis like half of a big big terran army. 3 corsairs - do nothing, really..
I mean sometimes it makes me wonder: This topic has got be posted out of pure boredom.
It's just 2 obvious why and that arbiter/s >>>>> cors in PvT
Well, I think having the templar tech on standby with Arbs is nice. Upgrades, Storm, Shuttle/Storm harass. All of which are not provided by Corsairs. With corsairs, you get dweb and nice aerial mobility on a MU where it isn't really needed.
And you lose recall obv.
Templar+Arbiter > Carrier+Sair. Upgraded Land vs Upgraded Air I guess.
On January 07 2009 03:11 MaGic~PhiL wrote: this is so.. stupid ?
It's so obvious why sairs are no viable option in PvT. Arbs are better on so so many occasions.. Additionally: 1 arbs can already be good. 2 or 3 arbs are a fucking huge deal and can stasis like half of a big big terran army. 3 corsairs - do nothing, really..
I mean sometimes it makes me wonder: This topic has got be posted out of pure boredom.
It's just 2 obvious why and that arbiter/s >>>>> cors in PvT
yeah, you're so right 3 arbiters are so much better than 3 corsairs!! And 3 battlecrusiers are so much better than 3 wraiths, Terrans should quit doing stupid wraith rushes against Z and T, cuz x BCs are much better than x wraiths.
making 5 sairs rather than 5 zeals helps you ALOT more in a 200 vs 200 battle when you have all your min + gas sitting around while your going to be maxed, you can afford to add a few sairs when you see t is playing defencive, sairs shouldnt be an alternative for arbs you could just add them into your unit mix with ur arbs, theyd help for easier recalls too on maps like blue storm
the "APM" arguments are so retarded: just because it's different doesn't mean it requires more APM. in fact, i imagine the same arguments used against queens are being used here:
1.) "they use up precious APM" 2.) " HOW CAN YOU FIT THEM INTO A BUILD ORDER" 3.) "defilers/arbiters are BETTER"
fact is that most of these arguments are based around one underlying premise: the dislike of anything new or nontraditional. but if we discard this type of irrational thinking, the following would become clear:
1.) DWebb>>>>>> Stasis. The reason being is it forces terran tanks to unsiege and move. TvP is all about positioning: if T is able to set their tanks/mines/turrets before P attacks, T wins. If P is able to catch them out of position, P wins. Dwebb forces T to be out of position while being attacked. Stasis, on the other hand, merely weakens the unit count of Terran temporarily, but barring a series of perfect stasis traps, doesn't force T to reposition.
2.) Cloaking sucks. By the time arbiters are out, T will have at least 2 scans and up to 4, not to mention science vessels and mines.
3.) Recalls are good, but sometimes counterproductive. Really, the ability to recall successfully reflects upon the game-sense of the player. In the hands of a dumb P, recall will not divert the Terran push and will only weaken the P's ability to defend. Because P lacks AoE units to buildings, they will do minimal infrastructure damage and will eventually be defended by scvs + produced units.
Even the best players in the world get raped by cloaking. I think you charging into a 10 second scan when you have infinite cloak is dumb. Wait 10 seconds. Cloaking is chief.
A. Any number of corsairs during mid-game will cost too much resources and a timing push will cost you the game. At 150/100 resource cost, it is more expensive than a dragoon.
B. Corsairs are more macro and micro intensive than arbitors.
C. D-Web has a smaller area of effect.
D. In the late game, the terran has 3-3 upgrades, or is on the way of having 3-3 upgrades. Arbitors are the answer to the upgrades because they take a chunk out of the terran army. At the same time, the terran army becomes more mobile because of the upgrades. The terran can choose to siege up only half the tanks and still have a formidable army.
E. D-Web renders zealots useless. Zealots can't get among the tanks and kill them.
F. Finally, D-Web does not last long enough. At 3-3 upgrades, you're looking at a full macro-on terran. It will take a lot of D-web to be cost-effective. At such a high upgrade, the terran can afford to simply walk out of it. With arbitors, you're taking away a chunk out of the terran army for quite a while, you can also cloak which is useful, as it hides at the very least part of your army.
Stop theory-crafting and do it. Show us replays against a competent terran where you won the battle.
On January 07 2009 04:34 dyos wrote: A. Any number of corsairs during mid-game will cost too much resources and a timing push will cost you the game. At 150/100 resource cost, it is more expensive than a dragoon. a well placed disruption web far exceeds the power of one dragoon, but its only more cost effective if the disruption webs land in a good place thus needing to be in the hands of an experienced player.
C. D-Web has a smaller area of effect. I actually believe the amount of area you can cover with corsairs versus arbiters is actually more unless your stasises land perfectly as you'll have far more corsairs than you will ever have arbiters.
The rest I more or less agree with, it seems like Corsairs have no room in the "perfect" PvT.
On January 07 2009 04:34 dyos wrote: A. Any number of corsairs during mid-game will cost too much resources and a timing push will cost you the game. At 150/100 resource cost, it is more expensive than a dragoon. a well placed disruption web far exceeds the power of one dragoon, but its only more cost effective if the disruption webs land in a good place thus needing to be in the hands of an experienced player.
C. D-Web has a smaller area of effect. I actually believe the amount of area you can cover with corsairs versus arbiters is actually more unless your stasises land perfectly as you'll have far more corsairs than you will ever have arbiters.
The rest I more or less agree with, it seems like Corsairs have no room in the "perfect" PvT.
It costs more than just 150/100 per corsair. It costs time and resource to invest into corsairs. It costs time to charge up the energy. Stargate, Fleet beacon, and research. That costs a lot of resources, and you don't even get to use them until your corsairs gets 125 energy. If you invest into all of that, the terran can just stomp you with vulture harass alone.
On January 07 2009 03:11 MaGic~PhiL wrote: this is so.. stupid ?
It's so obvious why sairs are no viable option in PvT. Arbs are better on so so many occasions.. Additionally: 1 arbs can already be good. 2 or 3 arbs are a fucking huge deal and can stasis like half of a big big terran army. 3 corsairs - do nothing, really..
I mean sometimes it makes me wonder: This topic has got be posted out of pure boredom.
It's just 2 obvious why and that arbiter/s >>>>> cors in PvT
yeah, you're so right 3 arbiters are so much better than 3 corsairs!! And 3 battlecrusiers are so much better than 3 wraiths, Terrans should quit doing stupid wraith rushes against Z and T, cuz x BCs are much better than x wraiths.
So what's your point other than to be a dick? He's right in the fact that they really just all around suck in PvT. Go ahead and try to do this to a competent Terran, and he will have a nice big sigh of relief that he doesn't have to deal with a good Protoss.
Also to counter the point of the tech being similar to Carriers: If you have corsairs, which would make him already expect Carriers in the near future, he would continue to scan the stargates and remove the element of surprise, which is really big when using Carriers. Also, he might counter the Corsairs with adding goliaths and range, which further prepares him for the Carriers, making that element of surprise even less effective.
Sairs are weaker physically than Arbs, but they are faster sorry if it was mentioned, I skipped most of the thread
Sairs could be a nice tactic, I guess, but they're actually slow to obtain with Dweb upgraded, and if you went Templar tech at a proper timing, Arbiters should really be nearly as accessible as 'sairs, and it's obvious they're a much better tech unit all in all, imo
On January 06 2009 11:22 Jonoman92 wrote: Most of us have seen the rare PvT where a few dwebs are able to disable a ton of tanks and completely turn the outcome of a battle and the game. Why is it that stasis is the norm and dweb is the rarity?
Negatives of Dweb: -AoE (area of effect) is slightly smaller? (Although they are pretty close, not sure on this) -It doesn't last as long -Spell range is shorter? (Not sure on this either) -Costs 125 energy instead of 100 -Corsairs cannot cast recall or cloak your units
Positives of Dweb: -Corsairs are faster and cheaper than arbiters. -Corsairs build very quickly and once the ability is researched it is easy to have a few with enough energy to cast some dwebs -While tanks are covered not only can they not attack but they are still vulnerable as well. -2 corsairs cost much less gas than one arbiter (albeit more minerals) so gas can be spent on additional templars/upgrades -Easy transition to carriers if desirable.
I'm considering trying to use dweb more often in my PvTs and seeing how it goes.
Because sairs don't cloak your units.
Dweb doesnt even last long enough for your attack to finish.
On January 07 2009 03:38 d_so wrote: the "APM" arguments are so retarded: just because it's different doesn't mean it requires more APM. in fact, i imagine the same arguments used against queens are being used here:
1.) "they use up precious APM" 2.) " HOW CAN YOU FIT THEM INTO A BUILD ORDER" 3.) "defilers/arbiters are BETTER"
fact is that most of these arguments are based around one underlying premise: the dislike of anything new or nontraditional. but if we discard this type of irrational thinking, the following would become clear:
1.) DWebb>>>>>> Stasis. The reason being is it forces terran tanks to unsiege and move. TvP is all about positioning: if T is able to set their tanks/mines/turrets before P attacks, T wins. If P is able to catch them out of position, P wins. Dwebb forces T to be out of position while being attacked. Stasis, on the other hand, merely weakens the unit count of Terran temporarily, but barring a series of perfect stasis traps, doesn't force T to reposition.
2.) Cloaking sucks. By the time arbiters are out, T will have at least 2 scans and up to 4, not to mention science vessels and mines.
3.) Recalls are good, but sometimes counterproductive. Really, the ability to recall successfully reflects upon the game-sense of the player. In the hands of a dumb P, recall will not divert the Terran push and will only weaken the P's ability to defend. Because P lacks AoE units to buildings, they will do minimal infrastructure damage and will eventually be defended by scvs + produced units.
You best be joking.
1.) DWebb>>>>>> Stasis. The reason being is it forces terran tanks to unsiege and move. TvP is all about positioning: if T is able to set their tanks/mines/turrets before P attacks, T wins. If P is able to catch them out of position, P wins. Dwebb forces T to be out of position while being attacked. Stasis, on the other hand, merely weakens the unit count of Terran temporarily, but barring a series of perfect stasis traps, doesn't force T to reposition.
So having the Terran unsiege and move some tanks is more effective than completely removing them from the battle? DWeb doesn't even last long enough for an attack to be completed, so you have to take into account that to have the effectiveness of the length of stasis, you'll probably need 250 energy instead of 100, unless it's an amazingly one sided fight or one player retreats. Your point is bad in the fact that you think making them move tanks are more effective than completely removing them from the fight; I hope you realize that after moving, the Terran can still fight with the units, else your point would be ignored in the fact that he didn't have to reposition, leaving only a 1/3 time stasis for more energy.
2.) Cloaking sucks. By the time arbiters are out, T will have at least 2 scans and up to 4, not to mention science vessels and mines.
Maybe you're just joking here, I'm not sure. Terran will have at least two scans? Good thing those scans don't ever have to be used for other shit like, maybe, scouting? Having to use all of your scans during battle keeps from being able to use them to scout where the enemy position is, what other tech he may have, or anything else important for that matter. Science Vessels are a possibility to have out, but honestly they get picked off so quickly and are a big target for a Protoss so they are only limited, just like the scans. And mines definately aren't valid in this conversation seeing as how they are an advantage in every TvP situation, not just against Arbiters.
3.) Recalls are good, but sometimes counterproductive. Really, the ability to recall successfully reflects upon the game-sense of the player. In the hands of a dumb P, recall will not divert the Terran push and will only weaken the P's ability to defend. Because P lacks AoE units to buildings, they will do minimal infrastructure damage and will eventually be defended by scvs + produced units.
I'll end this argument here, since I think you should go clean up a good Protoss recall with scvs and 2 fresh tanks.
I actually had a dweb build worked out that I used back in the first couple of season of ICCup. I beat some A level Koreans with it. Basically, did a normal 1 gate goon expo build into obs, mass enough to stop timing attack while getting quick 3rd, start 2 stargates as your 3rd nexus builds... make about 8 sairs before ramping up beyond 6 gate ground...
It's very micro intensive but it's awesome on maps where you can flank and stop T from just moving out from under the webs. Of course, you might be better off just making some temps But dweb sure is fun.
if you get dweb, i don't see a point to zealots.. i mean you could still use them if you dweb the front tank line, and then run zeals in. They won't attack, but you can hope for tanks in the back to bomb the tank along with the zealot. Otherwise, sair+goons would work against tanks under web. Vultures don't pose much of a threat... if he gets goliaths.... i guess you could use dweb on goliaths, or dweb his tanks and then run sairs while moving in the goon army
Vultures are a big threat. The do 20 damage to shield, lay mines, and run around the map. A dragoon does 15 damage to a vulture. D-Web is a surprise tactic. a terran who sees it coming will simply push before your sairs get enough energy and then spam turrets with contain. Before 70 psi, you don't have enough resource to put corsairs.
Templar is just a much better progression because you will need the templar archives for upgrades anyways.
Dweb on tanks, zealot engage, zealot do no damage Dweb on army, terran pulls back, protoss falls into dweb, gets owned Plus on recall either Plus terran could still USE the Dwebed unit, simply move them out of range of the dweb, wherease stasis take them out of action fully. Longer duration for stasis, as u said
i think it's nice in late game when you already have your forces up and want to recall the terrans main. if you're able to turn off his turrets and siegetanks when flying in with your arbs you definitly have a huge advantage.
but on the other hand you need to invest into a beacon and research dweb which is a lot of money. so if you want to cover your arbs while flying into a fortified main you're maybe better armed with hallucinated arbs. you already have your archieves up so hallucination is much cheaper to research.
in tvp corsairs have a lot of downsides compared to arbiters. it's fun to play goon/sair but at the same time it's very difficult to pull it off in mid-game. so i definitly prefer arbs with stasis and recall
recently i had the idea to build one or two scouts in pvt to hunt down the terrans vessels and protect arbiters from getting emp'ed. but after thinking a bit about it i don't think that it is really viable. by the time the terran has vessels he usually has a shitload of goliaths too and the scouts would be totally useless T_T
that's true. but i really don't like the effect that you cannot attack stasised units. if maelstrom would work on mechanic units as well, i guess i would rather use that instead of stasis. even though the duration is muuuuuch shorter.
[edit] don't get me wrong. i don't want to complain about stasis here i know that terrans are pissed enough about protoss at the moment so i don't complain at all here. i'm simply not a friend of freezing enemy units without damaging them. that's all
btw does stasis work only on units you actually see? or can you stasis a minefield without detection? (similar to ensnaring a cloaked dark templar without detection)
On January 07 2009 21:43 jhNz wrote: that's true. but i really don't like the effect that you cannot attack stasised units. if maelstrom would work on mechanic units as well, i guess i would rather use that instead of stasis. even though the duration is muuuuuch shorter.
[edit] don't get me wrong. i don't want to complain about stasis here i know that terrans are pissed enough about protoss at the moment so i don't complain at all here. i'm simply not a friend of freezing enemy units without damaging them. that's all
btw does stasis work only on units you actually see? or can you stasis a minefield without detection? (similar to ensnaring a cloaked dark templar without detection)
I'm 99% sure you cannot stasis a burrowed unit. Detection or not.
i think that it is possible. the reason why i ask is because i've seen a stasised mine in the match between best and skyhigh this sunday on gom. i'm currently searching the scene in the vods and post it here. i'm not 100% sure if the mine was burrowed or not. but it was definitly stasised.
Medusa, 10-15 gate fails, turns into a macro game...Lx tries to harass with some reaver and goon usage while expanding, it doesn't do much. Puma moves out to meet some corsairs but EMP's them first, then they're joined by an arbiter, and Lx breaks the terran camp with some nice stasis + web, while the corsairs make short work of the few vessels puma has.
I'm not sure how he could afford all that when he didn't really damage the T early on.
dweb doesn't clog the ramp..but maynarding scvs/probes along the ramp moves the statised units.. energy takes forever they are not intimidating they don't force the terran on scans and on sci vessels (he's gonna get it anyway cuz of EMP) they don't look cool (unless it PvZ) dweb doesn't last long if you have zealots, then they're useless if you cast the dweb wrong.. if you can clone 2 control groups of corsairs to cover everything you want then its great. it doesn't really reduce the T army since it can be dodged after it is casted, especially by goliaths...
Medusa, 10-15 gate fails, turns into a macro game...Lx tries to harass with some reaver and goon usage while expanding, it doesn't do much. Puma moves out to meet some corsairs but EMP's them first, then they're joined by an arbiter, and Lx breaks the terran camp with some nice stasis + web, while the corsairs make short work of the few vessels puma has.
I'm not sure how he could afford all that when he didn't really damage the T early on.
Damn Naib, beat me to it.
Yeah, Lx used webs to take out the vessels and lay some dweb down. I would say it was pretty effective, and Puma even managed to EMP quite a few of the sair.
On January 07 2009 22:11 jhNz wrote: you can definitly stasis a mine you see, i'm almost 100% sure about that.
Even a burrowed one? If it's above ground, then yes, otherwise I don't think you can.
yes even a burrowed one...
it was fixed on a patch way back...statis now works properly on burrowed mines.. the cool thing is you get to cast spells even if your unit is under the web..
I'm not sure about lurkers though, but I think they won't fire since they are technically still under the dweb.
Arbiters are just plain better. Recall, Stasis, and they cloak your army. Plus I've been in so many situations where me and Terran take out eachothers bases and I have like 3-4 Arbiters and he has no goliaths, nor can he build any, so I just wear his army out with those.
*sigh* There are almost no advantages to choosing sairs and Dweb over arbs and Stasis, definitely fewer than you guys think.
On January 06 2009 11:22 Jonoman92 wrote: Positives of Dweb: -Corsairs are faster and cheaper than arbiters.
-2 corsairs cost much less gas than one arbiter (albeit more minerals) so gas can be spent on additional templars/upgrades
Faster to build, yes: they build 4x faster. Cheaper to build, no. Gas cost is essentially irrelevant in PvT: the limiting factor is minerals, because your ground army will be very mineral-heavy. Since Dweb has a smaller AOE than Stasis, and costs more energy, let's say you need 2 sairs for every arbiter to get the same effect. Then the Dweb strat will cost you 3 times more minerals. Not to mention the fact that Fleet Beacon + Dweb upgrade = 500 minerals, whereas Arbiter Tribunal + Stasis upgrade = 350 minerals.
-Corsairs build very quickly and once the ability is researched it is easy to have a few with enough energy to cast some dwebs
This is really their only merit: you get access to Dweb faster than Stasis.
-While tanks are covered not only can they not attack but they are still vulnerable as well.
On January 07 2009 00:07 GrandInquisitor wrote: * Units under dweb can be attacked
This is a bad thing. It means your units will be wasting time attacking enemies that are harmless: they should be attacking the enemies that are currently firing back, instead.
-Easy transition to carriers if desirable.
This is mostly-useless because depending on the terrain, one will go either carriers or arbs. So if you replace arbs with sairs, then you would never want to go carriers on a map where you are going sairs, anyway. Furthermore, if you have to choose between sairs and arbs to augment your carriers, the obvious choice is arbs because they cost so much less minerals, even with the added cost of the Arbiter Tribunal (200 mins).
On January 06 2009 13:31 epic-zerglings wrote: - dweb only lasts around 20 seconds, but pwns turrets as well as tanks
Dweb on turrets is useless compared to arbs. First of all, when it comes to big drops, turrets seldom stop an arbiter from flying in and recalling. But more importantly, the # of units you can recall with an arbiter would require many shuttles, and shuttles are very mineral-heavy.
As for storm drops, or any situation where Dweb on turrets would be useful, you can just use Hallucination instead. In fact, Halu is much better because multiple turrets will each need a separate Dweb, and when you do cast Dweb you make it obvious that you're about to do a drop/recall.
- corsairs are cheap, fast, and can shoot down dropships(only if you have a lot, which i don't think is a good idea)
I'll argue that arbs are about equally useful against drops: 1. sairs chase and shoot down dropships ~= arbs stasis them to be shot down later 2. sairs dweb dropped tanks ~= arbs stasis dropped tanks
On January 07 2009 00:07 GrandInquisitor wrote: * The counter isn't as simple as focus fired goliaths. Increased number of corsairs + faster movement speed means it's harder for goliaths to pick them off quickly * Corsairs are sometimes easier to control, since they won't run off and attack turrets on their own
Actually, countering arbs is harder. Building arbs forces the terran to build vessels (= fewer tanks) and gols (= fewer tank/vult, and gols suck hard compared to tanks and vults). Building sairs doesn't really force the terran to do anything, since they can't directly attack the terran army and don't do anything else except Dweb sieged tanks. Sairs also have less health than arbs (even though they take less damage), which negates the advantage of being able to run away faster. They do run away on their own when attacked, but this has the downside of making it harder to dweb stuff, since some of your sairs will have run away.
This leads into your point about control. If the terran does build vessels and gols vs sairs, then the sairs will have a tendency to chase after the vessels, flying deep into the terran army where they die easily. In addition, sairs + Dweb require more apm than arbs + Stasis. Thus sairs are overall harder to control.
Lastly, someone mentioned that sairs can shoot down vessels, but arbs are arguably better vs vessels than sairs. It takes time to kill a vessel with sairs, and the terran can just move the vessel back and crush the sairs with turrets/gols. Stasising a vessel (or even a group of them) is a lot easier. The only drawbacks are the energy cost (though you might get part of his army as well), and the fact that you can't stop the vessels if your arbs all get EMP'd beforehand.
In conclusion, there really isn't a single advantage to going sairs over arbs, except for the fact that you can get dwebs earlier than stasis (and the fun aspect, of course ). Add this to the myriad advantages to going arbs over sairs, and it's obvious why sairs + Dweb is almost always less useful than arbs + Stasis.
Haha Chill I don't think this thread is that terrible, albeit it does have some bad posts in it.
Thanks for the replies though. I do think that generally Arbiters are more useful and easier to use but i'll test out trying to use some sairs this weekend when I have time and see how badly I get owned, just for fun.
I also disagree with the people who say it's blatantly obvious that one is better than the other. The main argument I do agree with is that teching arbiters is gas heavy, and gas is generally not the limiting resource in PvT, and that going dweb it uses up minerals you need for building up your army.
1. It lasts longer than Dweb 2. Arbitors can still cloak 3. Arbitors can attack ground units, sairs can't 4. Fleet beacon costs more than an Arbitor Tribunal 5.
On January 08 2009 07:09 Jonoman92 wrote: I also disagree with the people who say it's blatantly obvious that one is better than the other.
Well I think I did a pretty convincing job of showing that there is NO advantage of going dweb over stasis, except that dweb comes earlier. And with all the advantages stasis has over dweb, it is indeed blatantly obvious that stasis is better. (Unless you have some pro gosu timed build where you NEED dweb earlier than stasis.)
Alternatively, you could just form your opinion without any regard for logic or reason.
Or maybe I'm just not good enough for you to believe my arguments? "He's not Chill or JF: he doesn't know what he's talking about." But if that's the case, why bother starting a discussion in the first place? You should just say, "I want someone who's B+++ to tell me why stasis is better than dweb."
I wouldn't agree that the only advantage is that it comes earlier. I would argue that depending on the situation, corsairs could be used more effectively. I would say that you stand a better chance of keeping corsairs alive for one, corsairs are much faster, but also because Terran players focus fire any arbiters that come into range of goliaths immediately. I would have a hard time believing that a Terran player would find corsairs much of a threat.
Also, if the situation arises that you can get enough corsairs together, I think it becomes an advantage that you can still attack the units underneath. Bill, you wrote that it was a disadvantage because your units will spend time attacking units that are no threat to you, which is true, but I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that there are times a Terran's army isn't spread out enough (usually when you catch them off-guard with a flank and they siege immediately), and then four or five disruption webs can cover 80-90% of their army.
I think that arbiters are easier to use in general and are overall the better unit to get. Yet I think if you were to play and find out a good timing and became skilled at using corsair, you could use them to great effect. For me, it's something that I can't really explain well in words, but I just have a feeling that it has more merit then your giving it.
I think it was only mentioned once that it can really throw off your opponent.
I know I've been tricked in to seeing a fleet beacon, and next to it a blinking stargate thinking "Ah. Carriers. I wonder where the other stargates are." Only to have 5 corsairs backed by a large protoss force completely annihilate me because instead of vultures and tanks I had goliaths and tanks. Goliath/Tank < Zealot/Goon/Reaver/Corsair, or simply Zealot/Goon/Corsair.
Do I think it's a viable strat always? No. Simply because a terran player can build 3-5 goliaths and 1-2 vessels with emp, and the better micro wins. The same could be said about arbiters, but they're tougher and still provide cloak when out of energy. But it's certainly a good way to throw off your opponent every now and again. The way you throw off your opponent is they have way too many goliaths and no vessels, and you overrun their army with ground forces.
On January 08 2009 07:09 Jonoman92 wrote: I also disagree with the people who say it's blatantly obvious that one is better than the other.
Well I think I did a pretty convincing job of showing that there is NO advantage of going dweb over stasis, except that dweb comes earlier. And with all the advantages stasis has over dweb, it is indeed blatantly obvious that stasis is better. (Unless you have some pro gosu timed build where you NEED dweb earlier than stasis.)
Alternatively, you could just form your opinion without any regard for logic or reason.
Or maybe I'm just not good enough for you to believe my arguments? "He's not Chill or JF: he doesn't know what he's talking about." But if that's the case, why bother starting a discussion in the first place? You should just say, "I want someone who's B+++ to tell me why stasis is better than dweb."
Sorry I must've come off arrogant I guess? I do agree with you that in general play Arbiters are almost always the better choice largely due to the fact that teching arbiters does not cost nearly as many minerals as going d-web does, and it provides cloaking and recall as well.
From the start I never really thought d-web was going to be the "better" option (because hey, then all the pro-gamers would be using it all the time already) I just wanted to figure out the reasons why it was that Arbiters are so overwhelmingly the norm. Thanks for your post though, it captured all the main arguments and I agree with what you said.
I was just a bit irritated at the people saying it's obvious that one is better than the other because in my mind it wasn't THAT one sided, at least not upon my first looking at it.
I'm sure people have posted many reasons so I won't read them all, but I just wanted to say: I got raped TvP last week late game when he went carriers. I naturally went mass gols off 8-9 facts that i already had but he would just fly around everywhere killing my bases abusing the cliffs (Lost Temple) and when I get to my base to save it he already target fired my CC and I couldn't keep up in minerals. So after his 3rd time of doing that I went to counter his main but he had 4-5 sairs sitting there with like a dozen cannons and when i started to kill all his cannons he just dwebed me like fucking 10 times until his carriers arrived. I needlessly threw away like 30 gols and 10 tanks doing that and he just rolled me over after. No fucking joke, that was insane. Idk about ground army + sairs though PvT but carriers with sairs rape monkey balls if you use them effectively...
While most stuff has been covered, maybe the map being played on should be considered too. Dwebs in the right places are much more effective obviously than in large open spaces.
5 pages of discussing Dweb in pvt? oh my... so my contribution. In late-game pvt you have to abuse terrans immobility. 2 ways. 1st - arbiters with recall, 2nd - carriers. No corsairs.
So 5 pages later no one has actually gone and tried something to make this build viable? And if not maybe providing some replay examples of when D-Web fails?
I thought I had a couple of replays of me doing D-Web before (obv amateur games) but I just searched through every PvT and I couldn't find any sairs in them. I've tried to do it a few times recently, but I reserve it for late-game and by then I've secured the win.
D-Web is really effective when you use it a lot. Sadly that's time consuming and requires you to wait for the right energy to use it. It would be cool to see a build that utilizes something different in PvT, it's getting a bit redundant doing the same thing every PvT...
ok, i definitely don't think sairs are a viable tech option, but i was curious if it is wise to get arbiter tech after getting a small carrier fleet of 6 or so. carriers are usually hitting all over the map to begin with, so with an arbiter wouldn't you drain their scans ridiculously fast? but i feel like it may be prohibitively expensive.
On January 09 2009 13:12 dyos wrote: eh. Watch flash vs the rock @ medusa and go pwn that kid. flash is the reason protoss stopped doing 2 base carriers.
On January 09 2009 09:14 Grobyc wrote: I'm sure people have posted many reasons so I won't read them all, but I just wanted to say: I got raped TvP last week late game when he went carriers. I naturally went mass gols off 8-9 facts that i already had but he would just fly around everywhere killing my bases abusing the cliffs (Lost Temple) and when I get to my base to save it he already target fired my CC and I couldn't keep up in minerals. So after his 3rd time of doing that I went to counter his main but he had 4-5 sairs sitting there with like a dozen cannons and when i started to kill all his cannons he just dwebed me like fucking 10 times until his carriers arrived. I needlessly threw away like 30 gols and 10 tanks doing that and he just rolled me over after. No fucking joke, that was insane. Idk about ground army + sairs though PvT but carriers with sairs rape monkey balls if you use them effectively...
I think that dweb can be a ton more effective when it's used on lt, just because as P you need to defend against clifffing as well. I hate LT now because of the cliffs, but when I do play I go 2 base carrier every single game.
It was actually flash vs ryan[shield] my B. They look the same imo.
flash is the terran player who started using the fast upgrades and mass goliaths against carrier builds that were popular. Ever since then, hardly and protoss goes 2 base carrier, ESPECIALLY against flash.
LT however, has ridges that aid carriers. Alternatively, you can use cloaked wraiths. Sometimes the protoss forgets to bring observers.
Hey i didn't want to bump this, but a lot of people in this thread seem to assume you'd go mass sairs. Even 4-6 sairs could d-web a whole sieged tank line then send a goon heavy army in to clean it up. Thats not so much cost especially at lower levels where not every min/gas counts. Maybe it could be a kind of all-in strategy, since if done right your first surprise d-web usage could overwhelm the Terran ball. Problem is the energy will take too long to be very useful again so maybe its a 1 shot thing.
Other benefits i was thinking of, its good jump off to carriers as already mentioned. Good at scouting, can ignore missile turrets basically unlike observers to get a look in T's bases. I'm going to make a build order and try this out, i think the main point is the element of surprise.
So here's another question... why don't protoss users ever recall their units into the middle of a group of tanks? You can bypass all the vultures, and if you send another group of units to attack from the outside you can keep those vultures occupied. Heck, you might even get lucky and score some powerful land mine drags.
Larger area of effect, longer duration, arbiters can also recall.
On April 09 2009 06:40 latent wrote: So here's another question... why don't protoss users ever recall their units into the middle of a group of tanks? You can bypass all the vultures, and if you send another group of units to attack from the outside you can keep those vultures occupied. Heck, you might even get lucky and score some powerful land mine drags.
First the arbiters won't make it that close, a good late game terran will have at least around 12 goliaths to target fire every arbiter he sees and ofc vessels to EMP them. Late game when you have that massive amount of units and arbiters to recall the terrans army will consist of a INSANE number of tanks which will kill every single unit in the recall in a single volley. The units will be clumped after the recall and they will all die. Also you NEED stasis to size down the terrans army to the size where a protoss army can actually handle it.
On April 09 2009 06:40 latent wrote: So here's another question... why don't protoss users ever recall their units into the middle of a group of tanks? You can bypass all the vultures, and if you send another group of units to attack from the outside you can keep those vultures occupied. Heck, you might even get lucky and score some powerful land mine drags.
Because your units are way too clustered. Any mines will rape you harder than they do him because you'll have more units on the recall spot that he does, tank splash will obliterate you and you simply can't get enough units in fast enough. It works if the T is bad and leaves himself open to it (no vessel or turret near and clumped tanks) but a competent T can deal with it.
As for the dweb question. It's workable but simply not needed to win with standard play. It's like the queen question in ZvP. While arbiters and carriers are so effective there really is no situation that demands you build corsairs. And the 125 energy cost and tendency to clump makes it very fragile. Those corsairs love to stack and one EMP makes the game over if you rely on dweb. Arbiters are also more flexible. If the T spreads his tanks and slow pushes forwards then dweb won't give you a push break, it will at best allow you to buy time. While stasis is no more useful its situations like that where recall comes into play.
It was actually flash vs ryan[shield] my B. They look the same imo.
flash is the terran player who started using the fast upgrades and mass goliaths against carrier builds that were popular. Ever since then, hardly and protoss goes 2 base carrier, ESPECIALLY against flash.
LT however, has ridges that aid carriers. Alternatively, you can use cloaked wraiths. Sometimes the protoss forgets to bring observers.
watching a protoss that isnt bisu play flash is like trying to have sex with a woman with no vagina
Stasis forces the terran to be unable to use his units while dweb just makes the terran move them out of the way. And sairs have absoultely no other use, unless you want to snipe vessels with them. And arbiters cloak units, and can recall. When you go to late game and all you got are 12 sairs each with full energy trying to get into a terran base, you need recall.
If you recall onto tanks the splash damage will cause them to annihilate themselves. And a single turret or even two can't handle an arbiter's shields and HP. And I'm just talking about recalling a group of zealots. They spread out so quickly, and any mines will absolutely rip apart the tanks along with the zealots. I asked my friend and he doesn't seem to know why either. Apparently there was a game where Jangbi did it to an extremely spaced out group of tanks and his force got annihilated. But I'm thinking about using it as a tactical threat, constantly looking for an opportunity where the tanks have no choice but to group together. For example when going through a bridge or similarly narrow area. Protoss always lose a ton of zealots trying to get through the minefield in front of the tanks before they can even begin to try and attack.
You asked the question, why people don't recall onto tanks. Everybody answered 'because tanks do ridiculous splash and recall clumps your units' and you just repeat the same question again? Your question has been answered correctly, by the time recall is a tactical threat the terran will have sufficient tanks that a single volley will splash kill everything. His formation will be so deep that most the tanks won't already have a target and will therefore instantly fire on your recalled units. Your friend doesn't know why either because he's as bad as you are.
It was actually flash vs ryan[shield] my B. They look the same imo.
flash is the terran player who started using the fast upgrades and mass goliaths against carrier builds that were popular. Ever since then, hardly and protoss goes 2 base carrier, ESPECIALLY against flash.
LT however, has ridges that aid carriers. Alternatively, you can use cloaked wraiths. Sometimes the protoss forgets to bring observers.
watching a protoss that isnt bisu play flash is like trying to have sex with a woman with no vagina
well flash has no vagina either
I guess he didn't lose any units in that game besides his scouting SCV
On April 09 2009 07:45 Kwark wrote: You asked the question, why people don't recall onto tanks. Everybody answered 'because tanks do ridiculous splash and recall clumps your units' and you just repeat the same question again? Your question has been answered correctly, by the time recall is a tactical threat the terran will have sufficient tanks that a single volley will splash kill everything. His formation will be so deep that most the tanks won't already have a target and will therefore instantly fire on your recalled units. Your friend doesn't know why either because he's as bad as you are.
Everybody? Huh? You were the only one who directly answered my question.
My friend almost went pro back when he was in high school in Korea. I always ask him about strategies and decision-making in pro SC matches. My university has a ton of Koreans, and whenever they hold a Starcraft tournament they ask him whether he'll be participating, because they know he will win if he does. Trust me, he's much better than you will ever be.
My point was that if you recall your zealots into the tanks, there won't be enough room for them to all recall in one tiny little spot. They'll end up slightly spread out, and with leg speed they'll spread out among the tanks even more. The splash will annihilate the tanks. Even losing 12-15 zealots is worth it if you can avoid the mines and destroy 5 or more tanks.
On April 09 2009 07:45 Kwark wrote: You asked the question, why people don't recall onto tanks. Everybody answered 'because tanks do ridiculous splash and recall clumps your units' and you just repeat the same question again? Your question has been answered correctly, by the time recall is a tactical threat the terran will have sufficient tanks that a single volley will splash kill everything. His formation will be so deep that most the tanks won't already have a target and will therefore instantly fire on your recalled units. Your friend doesn't know why either because he's as bad as you are.
Everybody? Huh? You were the only one who directly answered my question.
My friend almost went pro back when he was in high school in Korea. I always ask him about strategies and decision-making in pro SC matches. My university has a ton of Koreans, and whenever they hold a Starcraft tournament they ask him whether he'll be participating, because they know he will win if he does. Trust me, he's much better than you will ever be.
My point was that if you recall your zealots into the tanks, there won't be enough room for them to all recall in one tiny little spot. They'll end up slightly spread out, and with leg speed they'll spread out among the tanks even more. The splash will annihilate the tanks. Even losing 12-15 zealots is worth it if you can avoid the mines and destroy 5 or more tanks.
Stop playing terrans who clump 5 or more tanks together late game without having science vessels. Also
On April 09 2009 06:46 Zoler wrote: First the arbiters won't make it that close, a good late game terran will have at least around 12 goliaths to target fire every arbiter he sees and ofc vessels to EMP them. Late game when you have that massive amount of units and arbiters to recall the terrans army will consist of a INSANE number of tanks which will kill every single unit in the recall in a single volley. The units will be clumped after the recall and they will all die. Also you NEED stasis to size down the terrans army to the size where a protoss army can actually handle it.
On April 09 2009 06:42 Nytefish wrote: Because there's usually goliaths to shoot your arbiters down and/or vessels to EMP you.
actually there were many pro games where I saw a great chance to recall on top of the clump but they never go for it. I mean im not a pro or anything, but I can generally see the outcome in these situations and I believe the P would have raped that battle. Not all battles after arbiter comes out is a full 200 200 fight. But then again, if you can actually just recall on top of them and win, you can just as easily statis them and win too. So I guess, its a very very limited situation where recall >> statis in a fight and thus no one bothers with it.
On April 09 2009 07:58 latent wrote: Everybody? Huh? You were the only one who directly answered my question.
My friend almost went pro back when he was in high school in Korea. I always ask him about strategies and decision-making in pro SC matches. My university has a ton of Koreans, and whenever they hold a Starcraft tournament they ask him whether he'll be participating, because they know he will win if he does. Trust me, he's much better than you will ever be.
Then go ask your "almost pro" friend these questions if he is so good. You obviously don't need teamliquid's help.
On April 09 2009 08:14 Kwark wrote: Stop playing terrans who clump 5 or more tanks together late game without having science vessels.
This kind of thinking is wrong. Terrans will clump up tanks without vessels. Watch a few pro TVPs. You'll see it. There's not enough time to do everything right.
People always assume their opponent will play perfectly. He won't. And he can't. Even progamers make dumb mistakes. You can't be thinking "PVP: when I send my reaver to drop him, he's going to spot it with an observer, move all his probes perfectly, send his goons to counter me, then smash my ground army before I can bring my reaver back... so the correct move is to have my shuttle dance around my base!"
If you assume you're enemy is perfect, you'll never take advantage of him when he's not. Expect flaws. And learn how to exploit them when you see them.
And I'm not endorsing latent or any other clown. And I'm certainly not ripping on you. I'm just frusterated that players, and even pro players, don't push the game forward because they fear perfection. I mean, if you're not afraid of rushing, don't be afraid to "late-game rush." That is, use a strategy that can be defended if your opponent plays it right but which can shock him and make him lose. Idra's the examplar; he wants to be able to win every time even if his opponent plays perfectly; he wants to solve starcraft. But all that happens is Trap expos like crazy and smashes him. Congrats, you can get the late game against any toss player in the world. Theoretically, you could never lose a game. Did that thought comfort you when Trap had 20 gates?
You're right -_-. A far better point would have been the one gameguard made. That if for some reason your opponent clumps tanks to the extent that a recall would splash them to death you should just stasis them.and save the zealots.
yea basically corsairs are 90% useless against Terran, while arbiters are like built to counter Terran (stasis to freeze the super range siege tanks, recall to exploit weak points in Terran turtles, cloaking all units to force Terran to get science vessels, etc.etc.)
Jeez, just reading latent's posts reminded me of an idiot in youtube.
There was this guy that replied in the SangHo vs Fantasy match in Sin Chupung Ryeong where SangHo went double manner pylon + proxy zeals and then 2 base arbiters but Fantasy won. The guy was asking why SangHo didn't recall into the tank ball. It didn't hit him that Vessels can EMP that Arbiter easily.. -_-
I'm not T nor P but i do know arbiters take WAYYY more time than corsairs to have all their energy up. Just compare their times of being built. Then wait for the energy. Corsairs can be somewhat used for an all-in strategy build. And why not in later game ? Sure they're fragile, sure they're useless with no energy, but can work wonderfully when they have it. If i was random i'd have probably used them more often than queens.
On April 09 2009 12:14 RaiZ wrote: I don't know anything about Protoss, Terran or PvT but i do know arbiters take WAYYY more time to get 100 energy than corsairs take to get 125.
...... If you just read the topic you'd know why corsairs shouldn't be used. Going straight to the last page and adding the disclaimer that you know nothing about anything is kinda -_-.
can mines detonate under dweb? if not imo dweb can be REALLY good, tanks dont fire, even if zealots dont attack they can mine drag, goons wipe out vultures
On April 09 2009 12:14 RaiZ wrote: I'm not T nor P but i do know arbiters take WAYYY more time than corsairs to have all their energy up. Just compare their times of being built. Then wait for the energy. Corsairs can be somewhat used for an all-in strategy build. And why not in later game ? Sure they're fragile, sure they're useless with no energy, but can work wonderfully when they have it. If i was random i'd have probably used them more often than queens.
Doing some basic math, corsairs with energy upgrades can only cast 1 dweb and it will take time for them to cast another one. Arbiters on the other hand, with 250 max energy, can cast 2 statis fields (each costs 100 energy iirc) and wait for about 50 seconds to get another 100 energy. Or they can cast a recall (150 energy) and statis (100 energy.)
Plus add to that the fact that statis actually disables a part of the Terran army for just 100 energy while Dweb just creates a spot that the army can move away from, and it costs 125 energy.
remember there was a time when arbiters were rarely seen, nowadays they are much more common. Who knows about corsairs, if micro/multi continues to evolve. Jaedong uses queens so why not.
On April 09 2009 13:06 nttea wrote: remember there was a time when arbiters were rarely seen, nowadays they are much more common. Who knows about corsairs, if micro/multi continues to evolve. Jaedong uses queens so why not.
Corsairs are widely compared to Arbiters seen in PvZ as far as I recall.
The number of Corsairs and Arbiters depend on the match up..unless of course you're Pusan, who opted to go Arbiters one time.
1 decisive advantage of the arbiters is recall, obviously, and another thing is this. d-web doesnt allow ur own units to attack inside either, so you wotn be able to use zealots. Plus it would require really good micro, and obviously they'd get goliaths. So if they did get goliaths, heres how it would work: if u sent in ur corsairs first, they'd get the d-web off, but they'd all die. if u sent in ur dragoons first, they heavy tank fire would kill all ur dragoons before u even have ur d-web down. Finally this: GOOD players spread out their tanks. It would be hard to d-web them all.
So basically its dragoons and d-web vs dragoons/zealots/stasis/recall obviously the 2nd one wins
Unless you're going for a pure goon build (which is really gas heavy and pretty sucky imo) those dwebs would completely make your expensive archons and zealots completely useless.
i think corsairs require good amount of micro and also timing of the Dweb is important, its just too much for a non-korean to handle i think ... but i hardly see Corsairs in PvT(TvP for me ) though it would be awsome to see Corsairs in korean games ... also T just makes a few goliaths and the Corsairs are done for ...
On April 09 2009 12:14 RaiZ wrote: I don't know anything about Protoss, Terran or PvT but i do know arbiters take WAYYY more time to get 100 energy than corsairs take to get 125.
...... If you just read the topic you'd know why corsairs shouldn't be used. Going straight to the last page and adding the disclaimer that you know nothing about anything is kinda -_-.
Well i did read the entire thread before posting obv. I'm just stating the fact that this build could somewhat be used for rush if you don't have time to wait for arbiters. I mean how many corsairs do you get until the arbiter finishes ? And i didn't mention the arbiter tribunal and its templar archive prerequisite before making a single one. I didn't mean this build was viable at all, just could be used from time to time in order to surprise your opponent. Could work like ZvT queens with ensnare usage (see drone ~) And of course i know if i said that i don't know anything about p or t is kinda vague but if you want i can add that i've been playing this game for way too much time so, i do know a little though
I just wanna ask one thing, why when i do stasis on some terran units it frozes only 2-3 units. while pros manage to stasis-slide somehow and they freeze up to 5 units
One thing I notice is sometimes when units are stasised they still do there still unit animation, and if there ground they can be drilled thru and if there air they move around as if there were stopped, yet other times they are completely still and cannot be pushed.
Is this dude to different patches or certain glitches? I'll admit I haven't seen the pushable ones in a while however here is an example of a pushable stasis unit. Notice the dragoon is doing its air humps, its still animation.
On April 10 2009 07:34 wwooaa wrote: I just wanna ask one thing, why when i do stasis on some terran units it frozes only 2-3 units. while pros manage to stasis-slide somehow and they freeze up to 5 units
EPT
, but they are faster
) though it would be awsome to see Corsairs in korean games ... also T just makes a few goliaths and the Corsairs are done for ...
