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My fellow swarm, i come to you today because i am getting so tired of studying for a huge anatomy final, so to try and procrastinate and waste some time, I have decided to write this.
Now i would like to tell you before you read any further into this theoryguidypalooza that this is 100% conjecture. I have yet to fully test any of the below stated out, however i think that each and every one of you can understand wher i am coming from. Basically with zerg in the shitter right now, and all of our great's in deep deep slumps, zerg needs to try and do something to bring us back. A REVOLUTION! So i began thinking about this while listening to my rpofessor talk about the retro peritoneal properties of the renal cavities ext.
I digress.
*Please note, i am trying to break down this economic problem into a very very simple idea. So i am (for the time being) forgoing teching and all of that.*
So of the 3 races in SC zerg is by far the odd child. Our economy is weird. To say the least. Our production buildings produce our attacking units, and our drones all at the same time. The worthless Protoss and Terran have it easy, one building makes their SCV, probes and what not. So when playing any other race (besides zerg) your economy will go in a straight line. Always going up. The rule of thumb (while playing P or T) is to constantly build probes/scv's and you will always see a steady increase in economy. To increase your army size, all one must do is build barrax or gateways at a comparable rate to economic growth, for a constant production of zealots and marines. Simple? Yes. Really, your army and economy will grow at a proportional rate. (if you don't spend excess money on upgrades and tech.)
But back to the swarm. Once again we have hatcheries. NO CC's NO Nexus. Zerg has that unique ability to produce drones and lings at the same time. I have noticed that in every single zerg matuchup except zvz. IN Zvt and Zvp zerg will (when going for an economic game, ie not a two hatch or any type of tech game) will ALWAYS ALWAYS try and build as many drones as possible in the shortest amount of time. I have heard time and time again, the simple fact that if you stop producing mass drones in the early and early mid game, you will be economically behind. The hardest part about playing zerg is the simple fact, that a zerg player has to try and find balance.
By balance i am talking about the inverse relationship zerg economy has, when you decide to produce zerglings insted of drones. For example. Why build 12 lings, when only 2 are neccesary early game? Yes you may be trying a runby- but when you get right down to it, you are hurting your economy. The larve that are now lings, could have become drones. So the traight of a good zerg player is to always have the BARE MINIMUM of attacking units early game. That way, they can drone whore and stay on par with protoss and terran economy. Balance is key. Two few drones, no econ. Two many drones, no zerglings, and no defense.
Normally zerg players do the following in a normal (standard) Zvt and Zvp.
12 hatch
11 pool
13 hatch
and depending on the match up either T or P you can get a 4th hatch start gass ext.
after wards though, one thing is always clear. DRONE WHORE
in a standard 3hatch muta game vs Standard T a zerg player expects to have 35+ drones beofre his muta are compleated. However in order to achive this, the zerg player builds little to no lings- and suckens up. The Z is powering off of 3 hatch and going nuts.
BUT
What if this idea could be changed?
Here is really the bulk of my economic idea. If T and P players are always going to be a steadily increasing line (as far as economics and army size are concerned) Zerg is nothing but. Zerg can do anything (with enough hatcheries) Think about it. You can have 4 hatcheries with 3 larve at each. So that is 12 units you can create. INSTANTLY. no wait, just BAM, units. All at the same time, no waiting, no nothing. You can see the benefits of doing so very very quickly. For example, you can have all 4 of your hatcheries produce lings. And you have an INSTANT army. Or you can have all of them go drones. INSTANT economic benefit. You don't have to wait for your expos to kick in, you can have any expo saturated INSTANTLY. But of course at a price.
I was think about that above, and suddenly my idea hit me. Why oh why does zerg try and mirror protoss and terran? Why does zerg mirror the ever increasing line? A line? Fuck that. Zerg jumps. I remember when i watch players play zerg. Lets say they are taking their 3rd expo (in Zvt) so- once the expo pops, the first thing that is done, is have a drone build an extractor. You need the gas. Then have some of your drones from your Natural and natural expo Maynard over to your third. This is done to (saturate) this expo. But, have you done anything? no- not really. You are not adding drones, while i do agree that you have made your drones more efficient, and yes your economy will grow faster- you are still going to be producing drones at that new expo, and only at that expo. So a linear progression.
Insted of doing the old way, and the type of economic management i see so often from zergs, why not have all of your hatcheries POP a batch of drones? (Right now your thinking Misrah is fucking clueless) Doing that in a midgame Zvt will leave you with no army- and you will get run over. Well i am so glad that you thought of this dear reader- because you right.
When it comes right down to it, i just don't think that zerg players are not playing to our flexible economy's strenagths. All i see is linear thinking. that is all.
Now I am going to try and theory craft out my idea for zerg play and how i believe with such a flexible economy, zerg should think about their unique economy differently.
So the matchup will be Zvp. P will play standard forge FE into a whatever, +1 rush- why not.
So zerg- will also play standard, 12 hatch and then proceed to 11 pool and 13 hatch yada yada you get it.
Normally the zerg player, off of his/her 3/4 hatcheries would be powering drones. To try and keep up economically with the protoss player. One the zerg player deems he has enough drones (and this depends on game sense, and experience. Noobs make more of an army for a safer yet in the long run more risker type of play, while the gosu is the compleate opposite) All the while Protoss is just going up their steady line. Slowly increasing economy and army size. They are not playing a difficult game, they are just building probes from 2 nexus and power zealots- from 5 or so gates. NO big deal. The zerg on the other hand, has to properly balance out his economy to try and make sure he is not far behind the protoss, and at the same time can survive the +1 timing attack- and not over compensating for said attack, because i have said above this would place him behind.
So instead of looking at this from the old way, try and be more flexible.
The zerg player, instead of trying to power drones, does the complete reverse to any other methodology, and works on increasing his PRODUCTION. Notice i didn't say economy. I'm not talking about drones, I'm not talking about zerglins. I'm talking about hatcheries. You see, noramally zerg players build hatcheris to facilitate a linear growth. Just like Terran and Protoss. But Zerg is NOT LIKE T OR P. So powering on production, zerg has a meger economy. and next to no attacking units. So what should zerg do? Well i think zerg needs an army- to try and fight off that timing push. So mass army. Start building an army earlier. basically start pulling a noob move. Build up, and keep building up. Is your economy shitty? Yes! But! Who cares? We have PRODUCTION on our side! So after building up an army, and not waiting till the last second, like all other zerg MU's zerg and protoss armies collide. And zerg comes out on top.
Right now your thinking, sure you won the battle, but how about the war? Misrah, your economy is shit. Yes i agree, but once again- im not constraining myself to a linear economioc growth. Insted- I can just 'PoP' drones from my 4+ hatch and there- I now have 12+ drones ready to immidiatly begin mining more minirals.
So lets recap our ZvP game. With added production- zerg was able to more comfortably fend off the +1 timing push. But now because of this, is economically behind. In this case, the zerg player- because of added production can "PoP" more drones and INSTANTLY see a benifit. I am not building them one at a time, from 1 or maybe two hatch- I am insted Throwing all of my hatch's to quickly prodcue a dozen or so drones. Afterwards, I can go back to mass army. And when need be, PoP mass drones.
Now are my ideas radicle? Yes. Have they been tested? Yes and no. Now let me explain.
Basically, it would be very very helpful (and i plan to do the following after finals) to try and find that perfect amount of hatcheries to drones. If you have made it this far into my theory guide thingy- then one quesion should still be on your mind.
It should be this: Misrah your still fucking clueless, You need Economy to facilite Production.
My answer? Yes and no. Yes in the fact that you are correct, you do need economy, but what i am trying to get across to you- is the simple fact that zerg players, are always seen producing units off of 3 hatch early game. They never have a larve idle. Yet we always seem to have excess money laying around. (Forgoing the cost of tecking) What can't we have the opposite to some degree? You see, having hatcheries is amazing because you can have a ton of shit building at the same time. Not all at once, but close. Off of your modest economy, couldyou produce 12 drones exactly at one time? NO probably not- but you can get close. I bet that you could have all of them morphing at the same time however.
So thanks for reading. Basically with the above posted, i am just trying to find a way for zerg to jump back. Zerg is flexible. Zerg is not constrained by some silly CC or Nexus. Zerg's kick ass. I just think that, could zerg economics be looked at from a non linear point of view? Can't we be more FLEXIBLE? Zerg has the unique ability to produce producion facilites at an early point in the game. So why not?
I await your scathing comments. 
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So in short, you focus on an army when you need an army, and you power drones when you need drones, never a mix...I might be missing something here or reading this completely wrong, but how is this any different from what has been advocated from Z thus far? The guides all point to that Z needs to switch between powering and army production very rapidly both because they can and because it is necessary for them to keep up, this doesn't seem to be anything new.
From that point, the Z's economy has always been a non-linear step function, much as what you are saying that people should do here. Is there anything that actually distinguishes this theory from the suggestions of old?
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Jaedong vs arew (on peaks) it is a complete balance of small army while teaching into mass drones. He doesn't build anything but 12 speedlings until 44 supply I believe.
Zerg love drones, if you lose 1 attack with an inferior army, then your grades/tech and everything else will be behind.
But watch how jaedong takes a overpool into a macro game, its the same idea forgoing drones for aggression and safety.
Zerg also does this in ZvT with 2 hats. Zergs have always had to time mass dronning with mass units and to much of either kills you. I don't see that anything you've posted is really revolutionary or controversial except you fail to realize that no drones means no tech+grades+ more expos which .... is the whole idea of playing a mass spreading locust like race in the first place..
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On December 10 2008 07:11 Ecael wrote:
So in short, you focus on an army when you need an army, and you power drones when you need drones, never a mix...I might be missing something here or reading this completely wrong, but how is this any different from what has been advocated from Z thus far? The guides all point to that Z needs to switch between powering and army production very rapidly both because they can and because it is necessary for them to keep up, this doesn't seem to be anything new.
From that point, the Z's economy has always been a non-linear step function, much as what you are saying that people should do here. Is there anything that actually distinguishes this theory from the suggestions of old?
Yes. I do try and make that distinction in my guide thingy. What i am advocating is increased production. You see I am not in anyway trying to say that zerg needs to switch. Yes they do switch between drone whoring and army creation. But it is a balance. Truly what i am trying to advocate to players, is this
"Allow yourself increased production to facilitate rapid army or economy needs." Normally, zerg players power drones off of 3 MAYBE 4 hatch. Then they make the switch to pure army production, and only produce drones from their new expos- in a linear type of economic progression.
I am trying to advocate, that with increased production, zerg will be able to create mass "all in" armies in the late early and early mid game. With increased production, the zerg player will not have to worry about being economically behind, because they can pop drones from a more substantial number of hatcheries.
Does that help?
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I agree one of the zergs coolest features is that you aren't penalized as much by missing a round of macro because the larvae add up when you aren't macroing perfectly.
Maybe I need to read this again, but why would you want to make 12 drones in a span of 2 seconds after waiting for 40-50 of making nothing from your hatches when you can just be making drones as soon as possible from the larvaes? This idea works with attacking units, in fact its the entire basis behind the most common ZvT build there is. But it's only efficient in that case because you are teching and cant produce mutalisks the entire time you are saving larvae+min/gas. Unlike say saving up larvae in early game ZvT in a 12hatch and making 8 lings from the 4 larvae you saved, drones dont work this way because they start to be usefull almost the second they hatch, so there's no reason at all to do this.
The only time you can really use this aspect of zerg production to your advantage is when you are saving up for a tech that is about to finish so you can make your 9 mutas at once or ultras or w/e.
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Are you possibly suggesting adding more hatches early in order to increase production capacity and therefore gaining more flexibility in sudden shifts from army to drones, drones to army, mutas to lurks etc...?
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On December 10 2008 07:19 lgdDante wrote:
I agree one of the zergs coolest features is that you aren't penalized as much by missing a round of macro because the larvae add up when you aren't macroing perfectly.
Maybe I need to read this again, but why would you want to make 12 drones in a span of 2 seconds after waiting for 40-50 of making nothing from your hatches when you can just be making drones as soon as possible from the larvaes? This idea works with attacking units, in fact its the entire basis behind the most common ZvT build there is. But it's only efficient in that case because you are teching and cant produce mutalisks the entire time you are saving larvae+min/gas. Unlike say saving up larvae in early game ZvT in a 12hatch and making 8 lings from the 4 larvae you saved, drones dont work this way because they start to be usefull almost the second they hatch, so there's no reason at all to do this.
The only time you can really use this aspect of zerg production to your advantage is when you are saving up for a tech that is about to finish so you can make your 9 mutas at once or ultras or w/e.
Well yes and no. You are doing exactly what i have stated above. If you decide to drone whore, and spend your resources on economy, your production will only be 3 hatch or so. What i am talking about is forgoing economy, and army for a period- while mass hatching. Perhaps my guide is confusing? I agree that producing drones continuously will allow you to have a greater economy, but not a great production, because insted of investing in hatcheries you are investing in drones. Does that make more sense?
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On December 10 2008 07:21 Deletrious wrote:
Are you possibly suggesting adding more hatches early in order to increase production capacity and therefore gaining more flexibility in sudden shifts from army to drones, drones to army, mutas to lurks etc...?
yes Exactly.
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On December 10 2008 07:23 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 07:19 lgdDante wrote:
I agree one of the zergs coolest features is that you aren't penalized as much by missing a round of macro because the larvae add up when you aren't macroing perfectly.
Maybe I need to read this again, but why would you want to make 12 drones in a span of 2 seconds after waiting for 40-50 of making nothing from your hatches when you can just be making drones as soon as possible from the larvaes? This idea works with attacking units, in fact its the entire basis behind the most common ZvT build there is. But it's only efficient in that case because you are teching and cant produce mutalisks the entire time you are saving larvae+min/gas. Unlike say saving up larvae in early game ZvT in a 12hatch and making 8 lings from the 4 larvae you saved, drones dont work this way because they start to be usefull almost the second they hatch, so there's no reason at all to do this.
The only time you can really use this aspect of zerg production to your advantage is when you are saving up for a tech that is about to finish so you can make your 9 mutas at once or ultras or w/e. Well yes and no. You are doing exactly what i have stated above. If you decide to drone whore, and spend your resources on economy, your production will only be 3 hatch or so. What i am talking about is forgoing economy, and army for a period- while mass hatching. Perhaps my guide is confusing? I agree that producing drones continuously will allow you to have a greater economy, but not a great production, because insted of investing in hatcheries you are investing in drones. Does that make more sense?
So if I'm understanding this right, you're basically sacraficing economy now for production. Which you then plan to use to catch back up in economy or some mass all-in.
I would be really surprised though if this kind of production could ever surpass the normal theory of zerg eco. Most likely you would end up with lots and lots of surplus larvae because you have 4-5 hatches with only enough drones to support 3. And while you would get a huge jolt in workers at some point, it will always peter out and leave you with excess larvae.
Of course this is all bullshit from me, I haven't tested any of this and am just going off of common thinking.
BTW I just thought, based upon the idea of a huge surge in drones, a much better name for this thread would be "Zerg Eco on Coke".
which makes you... the junkie zerg?
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LoL Dante you read my other insanity BO? lol. I'm still working on that. Be prepared for a Zerg on Coke V 2.0 coming in a few months lol.
Perhaps Zerg Ecnomy on coke will work well with Cocaine Bo?
Edit: Ohh and if I ever was christened with a nickname- and that was respected through out the community, I would put it on my grave stone.
Junkie Zerg? lol i like it.
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i personally like this idea but wouldnt it be scouting heavy? what if P or T (whatever you're playing against) decides to cut scv/probes and add army production buildings and go for a timing push
imo this has potential to be good theorycrafting to be tested out but of course the only thing that matters is the results
edit: i dont play Z enough so yes i might be saying random nonsense
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Isn't everything you have written standard Z play? all Zergs whores drones once they have won a battle and/or have the chance to do it...
And I don`t understand why you would wanna pop 12drones at the same time instead of just making drones non stop from your hatcheries, your thinking is way backwards "im gonna stop spending money and save up money to make alot of workers at the same time" instead of making drones non stop that gives you a constant flow and addition to your economy, if you do constant drone production you could easily make 15+ drones in the the same time you use to save up and pop your 12 drones at the same time + lots of them would have been working a longer time.
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On December 10 2008 07:52 Oystein wrote:
Isn't everything you have written standard Z play? all Zergs whores drones once they have won a battle and/or have the chance to do it...
And I don`t understand why you would wanna pop 12drones at the same time instead of just making drones non stop from your hatcheries, your thinking is way backwards "im gonna stop spending money and save up money to make alot of workers at the same time" instead of making drones non stop that gives you a constant flow and addition to your economy, if you do constant drone production you could easily make 15+ drones in the the same time you use to save up and pop your 12 drones at the same time + lots of them would have been working a longer time.
Your not understanding what i have said. I am talking about this:
Don't spend money on economy. Ie don't whore droens
Don't Spend money on Army.
SPEND money on increasing your production rate. IE Mass Hatch.
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On December 10 2008 07:52 Oystein wrote:
Isn't everything you have written standard Z play? all Zergs whores drones once they have won a battle and/or have the chance to do it...
And I don`t understand why you would wanna pop 12drones at the same time instead of just making drones non stop from your hatcheries, your thinking is way backwards "im gonna stop spending money and save up money to make alot of workers at the same time" instead of making drones non stop that gives you a constant flow and addition to your economy, if you do constant drone production you could easily make 15+ drones in the the same time you use to save up and pop your 12 drones at the same time + lots of them would have been working a longer time.
i believe the point was to make hatcheries and delay drones and then resume producing whatever (correct me if im wrong) as it is pointless to keep money unless (as it has been pointed out before) you're saving for mutas as spire coming in or ultras etc.
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On December 10 2008 07:53 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 07:52 Oystein wrote:
Isn't everything you have written standard Z play? all Zergs whores drones once they have won a battle and/or have the chance to do it...
And I don`t understand why you would wanna pop 12drones at the same time instead of just making drones non stop from your hatcheries, your thinking is way backwards "im gonna stop spending money and save up money to make alot of workers at the same time" instead of making drones non stop that gives you a constant flow and addition to your economy, if you do constant drone production you could easily make 15+ drones in the the same time you use to save up and pop your 12 drones at the same time + lots of them would have been working a longer time. Your not understanding what i have said. I am talking about this: Don't spend money on economy. Ie don't whore droens Don't Spend money on Army. SPEND money on increasing your production rate. IE Mass Hatch.
What does it seem like all Zergs are doing nowadays when they do 5hatch builds all the time?
The thing is why on earth would you want hatches that you cant support, having 10 idle larvas on your 6 hatches wont help either your drone production or do you any good when your opponent knocks on your front door with his first army and you have 0 money to make stuff from them.
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On December 10 2008 07:56 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 07:53 Misrah wrote:On December 10 2008 07:52 Oystein wrote:
Isn't everything you have written standard Z play? all Zergs whores drones once they have won a battle and/or have the chance to do it...
And I don`t understand why you would wanna pop 12drones at the same time instead of just making drones non stop from your hatcheries, your thinking is way backwards "im gonna stop spending money and save up money to make alot of workers at the same time" instead of making drones non stop that gives you a constant flow and addition to your economy, if you do constant drone production you could easily make 15+ drones in the the same time you use to save up and pop your 12 drones at the same time + lots of them would have been working a longer time. Your not understanding what i have said. I am talking about this: Don't spend money on economy. Ie don't whore droens Don't Spend money on Army. SPEND money on increasing your production rate. IE Mass Hatch. What does it seem like all Zergs are doing nowadays when they do 5hatch builds all the time? The thing is why on earth would you want hatches that you cant support, having 10 idle larvas on your 6 hatches wont help either your drone production or do you any good when your opponent knocks on your front door with his first army and you have 0 money to make stuff from them.
Yes i understand that. I even answer that question, in my earlier post. What i am going to be trying to do is figure out how many drones do you actually need. Also While i do understand that a player is not going to be able to produce everything instantly. Hoever the argument that i am trying to make, is the fact that you can have most of your larve morphing, and you should be able to fill out the excess larve gadualy. For example: I build 1 dozen lings. But i have 6 larve left over. While those lings are building, i can still put money into creating those larve into zerglings. So i can theoretically have 2 dozen lings morphing. This provides for a faster turnover rate.
I hope this makes more sense.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Suffice it to say you didn't give any tangible ideas so it's hard to comment on what you're saying. You're talking about cutting production for facilities, which every race does. In fact that's the basis of the shift from standard 12/11/16 to 12/11/13. It's hard to tell when you want us to further cut and for how long since you never go past the theorycrafting stage.
StarCraft, and specifically Zerg, is mainly about balancing economy, tech, production and army. The problem I see is you're advocating an early shift to production, which forfeits either tech or economy (or both). It could be overcome, but without specific ideas it's hard to comment on.
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On December 10 2008 07:56 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 07:53 Misrah wrote:On December 10 2008 07:52 Oystein wrote:
Isn't everything you have written standard Z play? all Zergs whores drones once they have won a battle and/or have the chance to do it...
And I don`t understand why you would wanna pop 12drones at the same time instead of just making drones non stop from your hatcheries, your thinking is way backwards "im gonna stop spending money and save up money to make alot of workers at the same time" instead of making drones non stop that gives you a constant flow and addition to your economy, if you do constant drone production you could easily make 15+ drones in the the same time you use to save up and pop your 12 drones at the same time + lots of them would have been working a longer time. Your not understanding what i have said. I am talking about this: Don't spend money on economy. Ie don't whore droens Don't Spend money on Army. SPEND money on increasing your production rate. IE Mass Hatch. What does it seem like all Zergs are doing nowadays when they do 5hatch builds all the time? The thing is why on earth would you want hatches that you cant support, having 10 idle larvas on your 6 hatches wont help either your drone production or do you any good when your opponent knocks on your front door with his first army and you have 0 money to make stuff from them.
If I understand the OP, he's not advocating a mass hatch (not necessarily)....Correct me if i'm wrong, Misrah, but I think what you're proposing is putting the focus of zerg on balancing production capability and economy, rather than the traditional economy and army (which you say is a T/P paradigm Zerg can afford to deviate from).
In preemptive response to others, this suggestion still adheres to the fundamentals of the game, which favors economy and army balance...but puts this in the background in favor of production/economy. The theory goes that you can make up the economic damage later with your huge numbers of hatcheries.
To respond to the OP, balancing two things is hard enough...balancing three might be impossible oO I'm excited about your idea, though, so I'll try it out asap 
.....as soon as finals are over. *sigh.
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ya finals are hidering me as well.
@ chill
Yes in that case let me give you an idea about what i am talking about. Something to this effect: also Chill and everyone please note, i am just showing you the implications of my ideas- so this may not be the best to to begin, mass production.
For Example:
12 hatch
11 pool
13 hatch
13 hatch
13 hatch
13 hatch
ext.
Granted Yes this example is to the extream, but you get my general idea. (or at least i hope so)
Basically what i at trying to get at, is to try and make zerg flexibility at a maximum. The only question is, how many drones does it take to really make all of those hatcheries effective?
At this point just throwing down a mass hatch- Could this sheer mass of production allow for zerg to make "all in" armies, and also allow for the zerg to overcome the economic problems caused by mass army whoring?
So ya you get my idea, and after finals I will be testing thoroughly. I was just shooting this at you TL guys to see what your Elitist basterds thought about it.
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United States17042 Posts
as chill said, it's not really specific enough to be able to look at in a serious manner. after finals.
edit: i just read the response, and i'm still not sure that you would be able to mid to late game econ better/faster than standard.
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EPT
