EPTOn December 10 2008 15:58 hacpee wrote:
1) You are Drunk.
2) When you play Starcraft, you are not in a vacuum.
1) You are Drunk.
2) When you play Starcraft, you are not in a vacuum.
/\ Purge!
[Q][G] Zerg Macro Economic Mindset - Page 3
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10716 Posts
Get Fast Expo, probably even Double-Expo when Min only is near (well, there was only Lost Temple so on half the positions this was the case). Get scout in, build bare minimum of units/sunkens and just use your money for drones/hatches... scoutscoutscout... If you see for what timing he is aiming his attack (good old +1 rush most of the times) begin to pump, crush his attack, swarm the map/kill him. Kinda a *defensive* Hydra-break but this relied on the Toss to actually attack you before he had massive Storms and that’s why it is flawed. But things have changed for a reason... You don't want to be that defensive early game... You want to expand like crazy or pressure the toss until your Tech hit's and then Expand (more), or offensive-Hydra-Break... | ||
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stenole
Norway868 Posts
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gumbum8
United States721 Posts
as for the whole 13 hatchx4 thing... THAT's different, but I'm not exactly sure it'll work as intended... because thats 900 minerals that would be making the drones you would need, or the lings... I don't really understand what you plan to do when that +1 zealot rush comes in, and you have 900 minerals worth of sunkens/lings/hyras in hatcheries instead. when you have those 4 hatcheries, you don't have increased production, you have increased potential for production, but you probably will have a hard time paying for it... because you didn't whore drones... But i'm a C-, what can I say? That's my opinion. | ||
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Lucristia
United States9 Posts
In other words, I'm not sure if it'll work, but I hope it will. I don't think people spend enough time poking at traditional builds as it is. All I see is skepticism over ideas and unyielding loyalty to the modern "trends" in pro gaming. Its the new ideas that made some pro gamers as famous as they were. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On a different note, i am working on Cocaine Version 2.0 Hopefully i will be able to give Tl a christmas present with this one. Right now the word document is like 3 pages long, and i have some good pictures. Rucky gave me a great idea with the graphing stuff- so i am hoping to add some of that in. Cocaine will *hopefully* become viable as a Zvt strat, i am trying my hardest to make it something. Radical changes are in store- just can't wait to unveil my project lol Also about the modern trends: Really they are the best. However in short i believe that zerg is becoming to stagnant. P and T have adapted, and nothing more can be said about this. Zerg just hasn't. Zerg only have like 9 units with which to work with- so I'm not sure..... I'm just sad that all of the zerg greats are getting killed off by worthless protoss and terran players.  | ||
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kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
On December 11 2008 17:08 Lucristia wrote: I like Misrah's thought process more than the details surrounding it. In other words, I'm not sure if it'll work, but I hope it will. I don't think people spend enough time poking at traditional builds as it is. All I see is skepticism over ideas and unyielding loyalty to the modern "trends" in pro gaming. Its the new ideas that made some pro gamers as famous as they were. Yeah but that's because progamers are the ones who play enough and have enough time to come up with new builds... amateur theorycrafting won't take you too far. Although I'm not saying it's not worth trying  | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On December 10 2008 08:39 Chill wrote: Suffice it to say you didn't give any tangible ideas so it's hard to comment on what you're saying. You're talking about cutting production for facilities, which every race does. In fact that's the basis of the shift from standard 12/11/16 to 12/11/13. It's hard to tell when you want us to further cut and for how long since you never go past the theorycrafting stage. StarCraft, and specifically Zerg, is mainly about balancing economy, tech, production and army. The problem I see is you're advocating an early shift to production, which forfeits either tech or economy (or both). It could be overcome, but without specific ideas it's hard to comment on. I think the idea is similar in concept to building a heavy mutaling force in ZvT after your initial harass. Normally in ZvT the flow is similar to Zerg 12h, Terran 1/2rax expo's. Zerg starts a muta harass while teching to Lurker, then take 3rd --> hive, etc. Then you look at the crazy Zerg concept. Which is muta harass into heavy muta/ling mid game, instead of lurker/ling/scourge. The idea is that your opponents mid game push is designed to counter your macro whoring and taking a third gas with lurker. But when taken by surprise by a heavy muta/ling force instead of what they have become accustomed to, which is the lurker ling force. They get fucked up. The sheer mobility of the muta ling force completely overwhelms the terran, they can't micro away from a burrowed lurker like they are used to and pick off the lings, they are now getting flanked from completely mobile mutaling which can follow them to their death. Then most Zergs would follow that up with a HARD counter to the expo of the Terran. Naturally pushing such heavy muta/ling would put you at an economical disadvantage, however if you use your tactical advantage you gained from pushing more units and use it to damage is economic edge to where you end up better off then you have successfully abused the dynamic of the Zerg race. Now with your heavy hatcheries you can further push your drone economy and push far ahead while his production has now been halted/slowed. I thought he was getting at using your heavy production to counter their greed. Like after you take down there first assault, you now have a heavy amount of units to counter with. The more units and less economy, the more effective your counter will be. The thing about Terran and Protoss when they cut probe/scv production for units is they can only replenish in relation to there nexii and command center count. Zerg is not limited to 30 seconds per worker, multiplied by number of nexus. Or whatever the rate is. If we have 5 hatcheries building up into our massive muta/ling force, we can then turn that info 5 hatcheries of drone production. There was a post a long time ago by Physician or Bill307 I think? Called Tactical vs Something which I think defined this pretty well, or at least acted as an extension of his economic ideas. To summarize, I think the main idea is using our flexibility to hurt their inflexibility. If they kill 12 of my workers, I have 4 hatcheries to replace instantly, they need to make them from 2-3 CC's or whatever they have. I know its not THAT cut and dry, but I was just simplifying it. But the idea he is trying to use has been used, it however is less effective with better scouting because it requires somewhat of an element of surprise, which can be considered a risk especially on higher levels of play in pro scene with extremely good scouting, this all just becomes incredibly risky. Its high risk, high reward. You can win and look like you DOMINATED because of your sacrifice, or you can loose embarrassingly. If a Terran scouts your GIANT muta/ling ball he might whore up 8 more firebat and just engage then, FB's melt your Zergling and make it muta vs marine/med. and well, that won't end up pretty. This is just another form of an all in imo, but a cute one with the ability to adapt. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
Ilintar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=36778 | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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BruceLee6783
United States196 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=65635 Players like Blackman/July/Savior already understand this concept. Players like [NC]Yellow either hated playing a macro style or never figured this out. Hatcheries give you not the ability to add production, rather, but to MULTIPLY. This is why a one-base zerg such as Tsunami can transition into a normal mid-game with a lot of macro. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
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