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My fellow swarm, i come to you today because i am getting so tired of studying for a huge anatomy final, so to try and procrastinate and waste some time, I have decided to write this.
Now i would like to tell you before you read any further into this theoryguidypalooza that this is 100% conjecture. I have yet to fully test any of the below stated out, however i think that each and every one of you can understand wher i am coming from. Basically with zerg in the shitter right now, and all of our great's in deep deep slumps, zerg needs to try and do something to bring us back. A REVOLUTION! So i began thinking about this while listening to my rpofessor talk about the retro peritoneal properties of the renal cavities ext.
I digress.
*Please note, i am trying to break down this economic problem into a very very simple idea. So i am (for the time being) forgoing teching and all of that.*
So of the 3 races in SC zerg is by far the odd child. Our economy is weird. To say the least. Our production buildings produce our attacking units, and our drones all at the same time. The worthless Protoss and Terran have it easy, one building makes their SCV, probes and what not. So when playing any other race (besides zerg) your economy will go in a straight line. Always going up. The rule of thumb (while playing P or T) is to constantly build probes/scv's and you will always see a steady increase in economy. To increase your army size, all one must do is build barrax or gateways at a comparable rate to economic growth, for a constant production of zealots and marines. Simple? Yes. Really, your army and economy will grow at a proportional rate. (if you don't spend excess money on upgrades and tech.)
But back to the swarm. Once again we have hatcheries. NO CC's NO Nexus. Zerg has that unique ability to produce drones and lings at the same time. I have noticed that in every single zerg matuchup except zvz. IN Zvt and Zvp zerg will (when going for an economic game, ie not a two hatch or any type of tech game) will ALWAYS ALWAYS try and build as many drones as possible in the shortest amount of time. I have heard time and time again, the simple fact that if you stop producing mass drones in the early and early mid game, you will be economically behind. The hardest part about playing zerg is the simple fact, that a zerg player has to try and find balance.
By balance i am talking about the inverse relationship zerg economy has, when you decide to produce zerglings insted of drones. For example. Why build 12 lings, when only 2 are neccesary early game? Yes you may be trying a runby- but when you get right down to it, you are hurting your economy. The larve that are now lings, could have become drones. So the traight of a good zerg player is to always have the BARE MINIMUM of attacking units early game. That way, they can drone whore and stay on par with protoss and terran economy. Balance is key. Two few drones, no econ. Two many drones, no zerglings, and no defense.
Normally zerg players do the following in a normal (standard) Zvt and Zvp.
12 hatch
11 pool
13 hatch
and depending on the match up either T or P you can get a 4th hatch start gass ext.
after wards though, one thing is always clear. DRONE WHORE
in a standard 3hatch muta game vs Standard T a zerg player expects to have 35+ drones beofre his muta are compleated. However in order to achive this, the zerg player builds little to no lings- and suckens up. The Z is powering off of 3 hatch and going nuts.
BUT
What if this idea could be changed?
Here is really the bulk of my economic idea. If T and P players are always going to be a steadily increasing line (as far as economics and army size are concerned) Zerg is nothing but. Zerg can do anything (with enough hatcheries) Think about it. You can have 4 hatcheries with 3 larve at each. So that is 12 units you can create. INSTANTLY. no wait, just BAM, units. All at the same time, no waiting, no nothing. You can see the benefits of doing so very very quickly. For example, you can have all 4 of your hatcheries produce lings. And you have an INSTANT army. Or you can have all of them go drones. INSTANT economic benefit. You don't have to wait for your expos to kick in, you can have any expo saturated INSTANTLY. But of course at a price.
I was think about that above, and suddenly my idea hit me. Why oh why does zerg try and mirror protoss and terran? Why does zerg mirror the ever increasing line? A line? Fuck that. Zerg jumps. I remember when i watch players play zerg. Lets say they are taking their 3rd expo (in Zvt) so- once the expo pops, the first thing that is done, is have a drone build an extractor. You need the gas. Then have some of your drones from your Natural and natural expo Maynard over to your third. This is done to (saturate) this expo. But, have you done anything? no- not really. You are not adding drones, while i do agree that you have made your drones more efficient, and yes your economy will grow faster- you are still going to be producing drones at that new expo, and only at that expo. So a linear progression.
Insted of doing the old way, and the type of economic management i see so often from zergs, why not have all of your hatcheries POP a batch of drones? (Right now your thinking Misrah is fucking clueless) Doing that in a midgame Zvt will leave you with no army- and you will get run over. Well i am so glad that you thought of this dear reader- because you right.
When it comes right down to it, i just don't think that zerg players are not playing to our flexible economy's strenagths. All i see is linear thinking. that is all.
Now I am going to try and theory craft out my idea for zerg play and how i believe with such a flexible economy, zerg should think about their unique economy differently.
So the matchup will be Zvp. P will play standard forge FE into a whatever, +1 rush- why not.
So zerg- will also play standard, 12 hatch and then proceed to 11 pool and 13 hatch yada yada you get it.
Normally the zerg player, off of his/her 3/4 hatcheries would be powering drones. To try and keep up economically with the protoss player. One the zerg player deems he has enough drones (and this depends on game sense, and experience. Noobs make more of an army for a safer yet in the long run more risker type of play, while the gosu is the compleate opposite) All the while Protoss is just going up their steady line. Slowly increasing economy and army size. They are not playing a difficult game, they are just building probes from 2 nexus and power zealots- from 5 or so gates. NO big deal. The zerg on the other hand, has to properly balance out his economy to try and make sure he is not far behind the protoss, and at the same time can survive the +1 timing attack- and not over compensating for said attack, because i have said above this would place him behind.
So instead of looking at this from the old way, try and be more flexible.
The zerg player, instead of trying to power drones, does the complete reverse to any other methodology, and works on increasing his PRODUCTION. Notice i didn't say economy. I'm not talking about drones, I'm not talking about zerglins. I'm talking about hatcheries. You see, noramally zerg players build hatcheris to facilitate a linear growth. Just like Terran and Protoss. But Zerg is NOT LIKE T OR P. So powering on production, zerg has a meger economy. and next to no attacking units. So what should zerg do? Well i think zerg needs an army- to try and fight off that timing push. So mass army. Start building an army earlier. basically start pulling a noob move. Build up, and keep building up. Is your economy shitty? Yes! But! Who cares? We have PRODUCTION on our side! So after building up an army, and not waiting till the last second, like all other zerg MU's zerg and protoss armies collide. And zerg comes out on top.
Right now your thinking, sure you won the battle, but how about the war? Misrah, your economy is shit. Yes i agree, but once again- im not constraining myself to a linear economioc growth. Insted- I can just 'PoP' drones from my 4+ hatch and there- I now have 12+ drones ready to immidiatly begin mining more minirals.
So lets recap our ZvP game. With added production- zerg was able to more comfortably fend off the +1 timing push. But now because of this, is economically behind. In this case, the zerg player- because of added production can "PoP" more drones and INSTANTLY see a benifit. I am not building them one at a time, from 1 or maybe two hatch- I am insted Throwing all of my hatch's to quickly prodcue a dozen or so drones. Afterwards, I can go back to mass army. And when need be, PoP mass drones.
Now are my ideas radicle? Yes. Have they been tested? Yes and no. Now let me explain.
Basically, it would be very very helpful (and i plan to do the following after finals) to try and find that perfect amount of hatcheries to drones. If you have made it this far into my theory guide thingy- then one quesion should still be on your mind.
It should be this: Misrah your still fucking clueless, You need Economy to facilite Production.
My answer? Yes and no. Yes in the fact that you are correct, you do need economy, but what i am trying to get across to you- is the simple fact that zerg players, are always seen producing units off of 3 hatch early game. They never have a larve idle. Yet we always seem to have excess money laying around. (Forgoing the cost of tecking) What can't we have the opposite to some degree? You see, having hatcheries is amazing because you can have a ton of shit building at the same time. Not all at once, but close. Off of your modest economy, couldyou produce 12 drones exactly at one time? NO probably not- but you can get close. I bet that you could have all of them morphing at the same time however.
So thanks for reading. Basically with the above posted, i am just trying to find a way for zerg to jump back. Zerg is flexible. Zerg is not constrained by some silly CC or Nexus. Zerg's kick ass. I just think that, could zerg economics be looked at from a non linear point of view? Can't we be more FLEXIBLE? Zerg has the unique ability to produce producion facilites at an early point in the game. So why not?
I await your scathing comments. 
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So in short, you focus on an army when you need an army, and you power drones when you need drones, never a mix...I might be missing something here or reading this completely wrong, but how is this any different from what has been advocated from Z thus far? The guides all point to that Z needs to switch between powering and army production very rapidly both because they can and because it is necessary for them to keep up, this doesn't seem to be anything new.
From that point, the Z's economy has always been a non-linear step function, much as what you are saying that people should do here. Is there anything that actually distinguishes this theory from the suggestions of old?
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Jaedong vs arew (on peaks) it is a complete balance of small army while teaching into mass drones. He doesn't build anything but 12 speedlings until 44 supply I believe.
Zerg love drones, if you lose 1 attack with an inferior army, then your grades/tech and everything else will be behind.
But watch how jaedong takes a overpool into a macro game, its the same idea forgoing drones for aggression and safety.
Zerg also does this in ZvT with 2 hats. Zergs have always had to time mass dronning with mass units and to much of either kills you. I don't see that anything you've posted is really revolutionary or controversial except you fail to realize that no drones means no tech+grades+ more expos which .... is the whole idea of playing a mass spreading locust like race in the first place..
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On December 10 2008 07:11 Ecael wrote:
So in short, you focus on an army when you need an army, and you power drones when you need drones, never a mix...I might be missing something here or reading this completely wrong, but how is this any different from what has been advocated from Z thus far? The guides all point to that Z needs to switch between powering and army production very rapidly both because they can and because it is necessary for them to keep up, this doesn't seem to be anything new.
From that point, the Z's economy has always been a non-linear step function, much as what you are saying that people should do here. Is there anything that actually distinguishes this theory from the suggestions of old?
Yes. I do try and make that distinction in my guide thingy. What i am advocating is increased production. You see I am not in anyway trying to say that zerg needs to switch. Yes they do switch between drone whoring and army creation. But it is a balance. Truly what i am trying to advocate to players, is this
"Allow yourself increased production to facilitate rapid army or economy needs." Normally, zerg players power drones off of 3 MAYBE 4 hatch. Then they make the switch to pure army production, and only produce drones from their new expos- in a linear type of economic progression.
I am trying to advocate, that with increased production, zerg will be able to create mass "all in" armies in the late early and early mid game. With increased production, the zerg player will not have to worry about being economically behind, because they can pop drones from a more substantial number of hatcheries.
Does that help?
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I agree one of the zergs coolest features is that you aren't penalized as much by missing a round of macro because the larvae add up when you aren't macroing perfectly.
Maybe I need to read this again, but why would you want to make 12 drones in a span of 2 seconds after waiting for 40-50 of making nothing from your hatches when you can just be making drones as soon as possible from the larvaes? This idea works with attacking units, in fact its the entire basis behind the most common ZvT build there is. But it's only efficient in that case because you are teching and cant produce mutalisks the entire time you are saving larvae+min/gas. Unlike say saving up larvae in early game ZvT in a 12hatch and making 8 lings from the 4 larvae you saved, drones dont work this way because they start to be usefull almost the second they hatch, so there's no reason at all to do this.
The only time you can really use this aspect of zerg production to your advantage is when you are saving up for a tech that is about to finish so you can make your 9 mutas at once or ultras or w/e.
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Are you possibly suggesting adding more hatches early in order to increase production capacity and therefore gaining more flexibility in sudden shifts from army to drones, drones to army, mutas to lurks etc...?
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On December 10 2008 07:19 lgdDante wrote:
I agree one of the zergs coolest features is that you aren't penalized as much by missing a round of macro because the larvae add up when you aren't macroing perfectly.
Maybe I need to read this again, but why would you want to make 12 drones in a span of 2 seconds after waiting for 40-50 of making nothing from your hatches when you can just be making drones as soon as possible from the larvaes? This idea works with attacking units, in fact its the entire basis behind the most common ZvT build there is. But it's only efficient in that case because you are teching and cant produce mutalisks the entire time you are saving larvae+min/gas. Unlike say saving up larvae in early game ZvT in a 12hatch and making 8 lings from the 4 larvae you saved, drones dont work this way because they start to be usefull almost the second they hatch, so there's no reason at all to do this.
The only time you can really use this aspect of zerg production to your advantage is when you are saving up for a tech that is about to finish so you can make your 9 mutas at once or ultras or w/e.
Well yes and no. You are doing exactly what i have stated above. If you decide to drone whore, and spend your resources on economy, your production will only be 3 hatch or so. What i am talking about is forgoing economy, and army for a period- while mass hatching. Perhaps my guide is confusing? I agree that producing drones continuously will allow you to have a greater economy, but not a great production, because insted of investing in hatcheries you are investing in drones. Does that make more sense?
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On December 10 2008 07:21 Deletrious wrote:
Are you possibly suggesting adding more hatches early in order to increase production capacity and therefore gaining more flexibility in sudden shifts from army to drones, drones to army, mutas to lurks etc...?
yes Exactly.
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On December 10 2008 07:23 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 07:19 lgdDante wrote:
I agree one of the zergs coolest features is that you aren't penalized as much by missing a round of macro because the larvae add up when you aren't macroing perfectly.
Maybe I need to read this again, but why would you want to make 12 drones in a span of 2 seconds after waiting for 40-50 of making nothing from your hatches when you can just be making drones as soon as possible from the larvaes? This idea works with attacking units, in fact its the entire basis behind the most common ZvT build there is. But it's only efficient in that case because you are teching and cant produce mutalisks the entire time you are saving larvae+min/gas. Unlike say saving up larvae in early game ZvT in a 12hatch and making 8 lings from the 4 larvae you saved, drones dont work this way because they start to be usefull almost the second they hatch, so there's no reason at all to do this.
The only time you can really use this aspect of zerg production to your advantage is when you are saving up for a tech that is about to finish so you can make your 9 mutas at once or ultras or w/e. Well yes and no. You are doing exactly what i have stated above. If you decide to drone whore, and spend your resources on economy, your production will only be 3 hatch or so. What i am talking about is forgoing economy, and army for a period- while mass hatching. Perhaps my guide is confusing? I agree that producing drones continuously will allow you to have a greater economy, but not a great production, because insted of investing in hatcheries you are investing in drones. Does that make more sense?
So if I'm understanding this right, you're basically sacraficing economy now for production. Which you then plan to use to catch back up in economy or some mass all-in.
I would be really surprised though if this kind of production could ever surpass the normal theory of zerg eco. Most likely you would end up with lots and lots of surplus larvae because you have 4-5 hatches with only enough drones to support 3. And while you would get a huge jolt in workers at some point, it will always peter out and leave you with excess larvae.
Of course this is all bullshit from me, I haven't tested any of this and am just going off of common thinking.
BTW I just thought, based upon the idea of a huge surge in drones, a much better name for this thread would be "Zerg Eco on Coke".
which makes you... the junkie zerg?
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LoL Dante you read my other insanity BO? lol. I'm still working on that. Be prepared for a Zerg on Coke V 2.0 coming in a few months lol.
Perhaps Zerg Ecnomy on coke will work well with Cocaine Bo?
Edit: Ohh and if I ever was christened with a nickname- and that was respected through out the community, I would put it on my grave stone.
Junkie Zerg? lol i like it.
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i personally like this idea but wouldnt it be scouting heavy? what if P or T (whatever you're playing against) decides to cut scv/probes and add army production buildings and go for a timing push
imo this has potential to be good theorycrafting to be tested out but of course the only thing that matters is the results
edit: i dont play Z enough so yes i might be saying random nonsense
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Isn't everything you have written standard Z play? all Zergs whores drones once they have won a battle and/or have the chance to do it...
And I don`t understand why you would wanna pop 12drones at the same time instead of just making drones non stop from your hatcheries, your thinking is way backwards "im gonna stop spending money and save up money to make alot of workers at the same time" instead of making drones non stop that gives you a constant flow and addition to your economy, if you do constant drone production you could easily make 15+ drones in the the same time you use to save up and pop your 12 drones at the same time + lots of them would have been working a longer time.
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On December 10 2008 07:52 Oystein wrote:
Isn't everything you have written standard Z play? all Zergs whores drones once they have won a battle and/or have the chance to do it...
And I don`t understand why you would wanna pop 12drones at the same time instead of just making drones non stop from your hatcheries, your thinking is way backwards "im gonna stop spending money and save up money to make alot of workers at the same time" instead of making drones non stop that gives you a constant flow and addition to your economy, if you do constant drone production you could easily make 15+ drones in the the same time you use to save up and pop your 12 drones at the same time + lots of them would have been working a longer time.
Your not understanding what i have said. I am talking about this:
Don't spend money on economy. Ie don't whore droens
Don't Spend money on Army.
SPEND money on increasing your production rate. IE Mass Hatch.
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On December 10 2008 07:52 Oystein wrote:
Isn't everything you have written standard Z play? all Zergs whores drones once they have won a battle and/or have the chance to do it...
And I don`t understand why you would wanna pop 12drones at the same time instead of just making drones non stop from your hatcheries, your thinking is way backwards "im gonna stop spending money and save up money to make alot of workers at the same time" instead of making drones non stop that gives you a constant flow and addition to your economy, if you do constant drone production you could easily make 15+ drones in the the same time you use to save up and pop your 12 drones at the same time + lots of them would have been working a longer time.
i believe the point was to make hatcheries and delay drones and then resume producing whatever (correct me if im wrong) as it is pointless to keep money unless (as it has been pointed out before) you're saving for mutas as spire coming in or ultras etc.
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On December 10 2008 07:53 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 07:52 Oystein wrote:
Isn't everything you have written standard Z play? all Zergs whores drones once they have won a battle and/or have the chance to do it...
And I don`t understand why you would wanna pop 12drones at the same time instead of just making drones non stop from your hatcheries, your thinking is way backwards "im gonna stop spending money and save up money to make alot of workers at the same time" instead of making drones non stop that gives you a constant flow and addition to your economy, if you do constant drone production you could easily make 15+ drones in the the same time you use to save up and pop your 12 drones at the same time + lots of them would have been working a longer time. Your not understanding what i have said. I am talking about this: Don't spend money on economy. Ie don't whore droens Don't Spend money on Army. SPEND money on increasing your production rate. IE Mass Hatch.
What does it seem like all Zergs are doing nowadays when they do 5hatch builds all the time?
The thing is why on earth would you want hatches that you cant support, having 10 idle larvas on your 6 hatches wont help either your drone production or do you any good when your opponent knocks on your front door with his first army and you have 0 money to make stuff from them.
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On December 10 2008 07:56 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 07:53 Misrah wrote:On December 10 2008 07:52 Oystein wrote:
Isn't everything you have written standard Z play? all Zergs whores drones once they have won a battle and/or have the chance to do it...
And I don`t understand why you would wanna pop 12drones at the same time instead of just making drones non stop from your hatcheries, your thinking is way backwards "im gonna stop spending money and save up money to make alot of workers at the same time" instead of making drones non stop that gives you a constant flow and addition to your economy, if you do constant drone production you could easily make 15+ drones in the the same time you use to save up and pop your 12 drones at the same time + lots of them would have been working a longer time. Your not understanding what i have said. I am talking about this: Don't spend money on economy. Ie don't whore droens Don't Spend money on Army. SPEND money on increasing your production rate. IE Mass Hatch. What does it seem like all Zergs are doing nowadays when they do 5hatch builds all the time? The thing is why on earth would you want hatches that you cant support, having 10 idle larvas on your 6 hatches wont help either your drone production or do you any good when your opponent knocks on your front door with his first army and you have 0 money to make stuff from them.
Yes i understand that. I even answer that question, in my earlier post. What i am going to be trying to do is figure out how many drones do you actually need. Also While i do understand that a player is not going to be able to produce everything instantly. Hoever the argument that i am trying to make, is the fact that you can have most of your larve morphing, and you should be able to fill out the excess larve gadualy. For example: I build 1 dozen lings. But i have 6 larve left over. While those lings are building, i can still put money into creating those larve into zerglings. So i can theoretically have 2 dozen lings morphing. This provides for a faster turnover rate.
I hope this makes more sense.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Suffice it to say you didn't give any tangible ideas so it's hard to comment on what you're saying. You're talking about cutting production for facilities, which every race does. In fact that's the basis of the shift from standard 12/11/16 to 12/11/13. It's hard to tell when you want us to further cut and for how long since you never go past the theorycrafting stage.
StarCraft, and specifically Zerg, is mainly about balancing economy, tech, production and army. The problem I see is you're advocating an early shift to production, which forfeits either tech or economy (or both). It could be overcome, but without specific ideas it's hard to comment on.
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On December 10 2008 07:56 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 07:53 Misrah wrote:On December 10 2008 07:52 Oystein wrote:
Isn't everything you have written standard Z play? all Zergs whores drones once they have won a battle and/or have the chance to do it...
And I don`t understand why you would wanna pop 12drones at the same time instead of just making drones non stop from your hatcheries, your thinking is way backwards "im gonna stop spending money and save up money to make alot of workers at the same time" instead of making drones non stop that gives you a constant flow and addition to your economy, if you do constant drone production you could easily make 15+ drones in the the same time you use to save up and pop your 12 drones at the same time + lots of them would have been working a longer time. Your not understanding what i have said. I am talking about this: Don't spend money on economy. Ie don't whore droens Don't Spend money on Army. SPEND money on increasing your production rate. IE Mass Hatch. What does it seem like all Zergs are doing nowadays when they do 5hatch builds all the time? The thing is why on earth would you want hatches that you cant support, having 10 idle larvas on your 6 hatches wont help either your drone production or do you any good when your opponent knocks on your front door with his first army and you have 0 money to make stuff from them.
If I understand the OP, he's not advocating a mass hatch (not necessarily)....Correct me if i'm wrong, Misrah, but I think what you're proposing is putting the focus of zerg on balancing production capability and economy, rather than the traditional economy and army (which you say is a T/P paradigm Zerg can afford to deviate from).
In preemptive response to others, this suggestion still adheres to the fundamentals of the game, which favors economy and army balance...but puts this in the background in favor of production/economy. The theory goes that you can make up the economic damage later with your huge numbers of hatcheries.
To respond to the OP, balancing two things is hard enough...balancing three might be impossible oO I'm excited about your idea, though, so I'll try it out asap 
.....as soon as finals are over. *sigh.
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ya finals are hidering me as well.
@ chill
Yes in that case let me give you an idea about what i am talking about. Something to this effect: also Chill and everyone please note, i am just showing you the implications of my ideas- so this may not be the best to to begin, mass production.
For Example:
12 hatch
11 pool
13 hatch
13 hatch
13 hatch
13 hatch
ext.
Granted Yes this example is to the extream, but you get my general idea. (or at least i hope so)
Basically what i at trying to get at, is to try and make zerg flexibility at a maximum. The only question is, how many drones does it take to really make all of those hatcheries effective?
At this point just throwing down a mass hatch- Could this sheer mass of production allow for zerg to make "all in" armies, and also allow for the zerg to overcome the economic problems caused by mass army whoring?
So ya you get my idea, and after finals I will be testing thoroughly. I was just shooting this at you TL guys to see what your Elitist basterds thought about it.
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United States17042 Posts
as chill said, it's not really specific enough to be able to look at in a serious manner. after finals.
edit: i just read the response, and i'm still not sure that you would be able to mid to late game econ better/faster than standard.
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United States17042 Posts
On December 10 2008 07:39 Misrah wrote:
LoL Dante you read my other insanity BO? lol. I'm still working on that. Be prepared for a Zerg on Coke V 2.0 coming in a few months lol.
Perhaps Zerg Ecnomy on coke will work well with Cocaine Bo?
Edit: Ohh and if I ever was christened with a nickname- and that was respected through out the community, I would put it on my grave stone.
Junkie Zerg? lol i like it.
kind of like me xD
go to a meetup
not sure i'm respected throughout the community though. I'll quest to be >C- level at some point in my life >.>
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Braavos36375 Posts
hatch timings are already maximized by current build orders
the reason why this idea is useless is because as you're adding early hatcheries you don't have enough money to use the larvae being spit out by your current hatches. by having 3 idle larvae everywhere while you're blissfully adding more hatches, added with the economic/tech hit that you'll take by not progressing normally, completely outweighs any boost in production flexibility that you'll get later on from more hatcheries
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If you're going to go all-in, why not make lings instead of hatches? Hatches don't help you crack a cannon line...
Mass hatch is what you do in money maps with NR15... modern zerg builds are what works in real maps. Good zerg players can keep their money down anyway, so why more hatches? Build hatches when you need them, not when you are vulnerable.
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So basically i have a mute point? And idea? None the less. When i have time, i am going to try this out a bit. IMO it's worth exploring.
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Keep in mind that gas is the most limiting resource. The only thing you can hope to accomplish is to make a large amount of low tech units early on, which is easily countered by both terran and protoss. They will just delay moving out until their blob can eat any number of zerglings and hydras. For the standard zerg strats, hatchery and drone count is balanced for efficient production. With mass hatches comes delayed tech, and adding more expos than the natural will be hard. The only possible use of a low tech/mass hatch build is to keep adding hatcheries in zvp, on expo spots when possible, while making just enough low tech units to defend. In other words, the ancient sauron strat.
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Yes i realize that the build is a slight mirror of sauron style. For some reason my brain is functioning in this mode. ie. Cocaine Bo and all of that. However i believe you are incorrect in saying that large amounts of low teir units are noneffective. I couldn't disagree more. However that is not the discussion of this economic idea.
@ Hot_Bid
When you are talking about hatch timings are already maximized by current build orders, would you agree or disagree that zerg players will have an excess of minerals- even though catching every single larve off of a 3 hatch? Or am i just really really in the wrong ball park with my ideas.
I would have thought that this idea would at least have some merit- but right now, I'm getting nothing.
So basically I am insane? and defiantly in the wrong here?
Damn finals- taking up so much of my time. the only thing i can do, is look at Tl once and awhile lol
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Having an excess of hatcheries without resources to produce units is even sillier than having excessive resources and not enough hatcheries. At least resources accumulate and can be used later - hatcheries can hold only three larva before they start losing potential production. Additional hatcheries makes sense only when you are gaining resources faster than you can spend.
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On December 10 2008 09:44 Underwhelmed wrote:
Having an excess of hatcheries without resources to produce units is even sillier than having excessive resources and not enough hatcheries. At least resources accumulate and can be used later - hatcheries can hold only three larva before they start losing potential production. Additional hatcheries makes sense only when you are gaining resources faster than you can spend.
True.
Ya i think that i am studying to hard- and not thinking about SC enough lol.
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Calgary25980 Posts
That's where tech fits in. Yea, of course if you are just making Drones it's best to cut them to make more Hatcheries sooner, but the problem you aren't addressing (which is the major point you should be addressing) is how delayed tech and fewer expansions is overcome by having more production.
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This sounds like a sauron-esque zerg style except without the mass expand. The reason why one would have too many minerals left over is because there are too many drones mining and not enough army. Sure, Zerg can have an amazing eco with many, many bases, but what is it worth if you have no psi left to build army? Building mass hatch in the early game will leave you too behind, and adding mass hatch in late game means you probably have too many drones. Unless your psi is really low, in which case you probably should mass hatch. But then again, when you get to the late game, expanding eco isnt really something you need, seeing as you already have a lot of drones and can maynard them to your new expos.
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i don't see how you aren't going to get run over using this. if terran / protoss have a linear mining progression then the entire time you are making hatches / fighting units in order to stay alive your economy remains stagnant.
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On December 10 2008 08:55 Misrah wrote:
For Example:
12 hatch
11 pool
13 hatch
13 hatch
13 hatch
13 hatch
ext.
Chill please close this thread there are no ideas, just an opp who doesn't understand alot of economic concepts that are standard today.
To the op when I go 12/11/13/17 or 18 4 hat before gas ZvP I am pushing it as it is.
You are talking about basicly a mass ling heavy game.
You idea's die after 10 minutes.
Sure getting mass hats and doing a giant break is standard, I've gone 5 hat no lair speed only hydras DOZENS of times, but .... its an all-in.
You recommending zerg puts off making money, so they can match armies, which doesn't favor zerg ZvP or ZvT. This means No hive no 4th, no grades, no drones..... The entire concept of making hats with minimal drones.....
Have you watch modern ZvP? .... thats the whole idea already introduced, and if you watch closer you would realize how the drones increase depending on unit choice, tech, number of hats, opps tech, opps expos , opps strength.
This is a non-idea idea, modern ZvP is already stretching the limits of 'low drone saturation' and you want to make it worse.
If you need I can play a game and make 5 hats before 22-23 supply and show you how untimmmed and weak it is.
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On December 10 2008 11:05 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 08:55 Misrah wrote:
For Example:
12 hatch
11 pool
13 hatch
13 hatch
13 hatch
13 hatch
ext.
Chill please close this thread there are no ideas, just an opp who doesn't understand alot of economic concepts that are standard today. To the op when I go 12/11/13/17 or 18 4 hat before gas ZvP I am pushing it as it is. You are talking about basicly a mass ling heavy game. You idea's die after 10 minutes. Sure getting mass hats and doing a giant break is standard, I've gone 5 hat no lair speed only hydras DOZENS of times, but .... its an all-in. You recommending zerg puts off making money, so they can match armies, which doesn't favor zerg ZvP or ZvT. This means No hive no 4th, no grades, no drones..... The entire concept of making hats with minimal drones..... Have you watch modern ZvP? .... thats the whole idea already introduced, and if you watch closer you would realize how the drones increase depending on unit choice, tech, number of hats, opps tech, opps expos , opps strength. This is a non-idea idea, modern ZvP is already stretching the limits of 'low drone saturation' and you want to make it worse. If you need I can play a game and make 5 hats before 22-23 supply and show you how untimmmed and weak it is.
Damn well that was convincing. Sorry for wasting time everyone. I thought that perhaps i could have been/may have been onto an interesting idea.
Thanks for slapping sense into me attack, chill everyone lol
sorry again. 
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Don't be sorry, I look forward to every single one of your posts.
My tone was annoyed because a zerg macro expert (oystein) told you and you more or less disregarded him.
Keep thinking about zerg, I love your thoughts and ideas your a great poster just look out for when very good players try to break something down for you, they won't lie for fun  .
Later bro.
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are you hoping to have figured out some new amazing theory???.. sorry you failed
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Economy leads to production. Production does not lead to economy.
Basically, what you should get is the same amount of resources and the same amount of units, but more unused hatches...
xP I must have too much freetime...should be studying for finals too >> crap
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United States17042 Posts
those graphs above are pretty cool .
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rucky, those graphs are simply amazing. I am glad that you are putting off your academic career! lol Anyway even though the point has been shown to be mute i love your attempt lol. <3
@ Hatchet Wound, well yes and no. I did get kind of close at one time coming up with something viable- that was rather unorthodox (im still working on that though, be prepared for V 2.0 soon) this idea was more of a, OMG WHAT IF? so ya, your right phail. Epic phail on my part here.
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1) You are Drunk.
2) When you play Starcraft, you are not in a vacuum.
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On December 10 2008 15:58 hacpee wrote:
1) You are Drunk.
2) When you play Starcraft, you are not in a vacuum.
/\ Purge!
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This kinda reminds of very oldschool Zerg builds..
Get Fast Expo, probably even Double-Expo when Min only is near (well, there was only Lost Temple so on half the positions this was the case).
Get scout in, build bare minimum of units/sunkens and just use your money for drones/hatches... scoutscoutscout... If you see for what timing he is aiming his attack (good old +1 rush most of the times) begin to pump, crush his attack, swarm the map/kill him. Kinda a *defensive* Hydra-break but this relied on the Toss to actually attack you before he had massive Storms and that’s why it is flawed.
But things have changed for a reason... You don't want to be that defensive early game... You want to expand like crazy or pressure the toss until your Tech hit's and then Expand (more), or offensive-Hydra-Break...
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This thread made me think of mineral hackers because they like making lots of hatcheries in their main too.
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...So, you pretty much just said that when you need drones, make drones, and when you need forces, make forces...? Am I right?
as for the whole 13 hatchx4 thing... THAT's different, but I'm not exactly sure it'll work as intended... because thats 900 minerals that would be making the drones you would need, or the lings... I don't really understand what you plan to do when that +1 zealot rush comes in, and you have 900 minerals worth of sunkens/lings/hyras in hatcheries instead. when you have those 4 hatcheries, you don't have increased production, you have increased potential for production, but you probably will have a hard time paying for it... because you didn't whore drones...
But i'm a C-, what can I say? That's my opinion.
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I like Misrah's thought process more than the details surrounding it.
In other words, I'm not sure if it'll work, but I hope it will.
I don't think people spend enough time poking at traditional builds as it is.
All I see is skepticism over ideas and unyielding loyalty to the modern "trends" in pro gaming.
Its the new ideas that made some pro gamers as famous as they were.
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Meh. As far as poking at ideas, this one was an epic fail on my part. I see that now.
On a different note, i am working on Cocaine Version 2.0 Hopefully i will be able to give Tl a christmas present with this one. Right now the word document is like 3 pages long, and i have some good pictures. Rucky gave me a great idea with the graphing stuff- so i am hoping to add some of that in.
Cocaine will *hopefully* become viable as a Zvt strat, i am trying my hardest to make it something. Radical changes are in store- just can't wait to unveil my project lol
Also about the modern trends:
Really they are the best.
However in short i believe that zerg is becoming to stagnant. P and T have adapted, and nothing more can be said about this. Zerg just hasn't. Zerg only have like 9 units with which to work with- so I'm not sure..... I'm just sad that all of the zerg greats are getting killed off by worthless protoss and terran players.
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On December 11 2008 17:08 Lucristia wrote:
I like Misrah's thought process more than the details surrounding it.
In other words, I'm not sure if it'll work, but I hope it will.
I don't think people spend enough time poking at traditional builds as it is.
All I see is skepticism over ideas and unyielding loyalty to the modern "trends" in pro gaming.
Its the new ideas that made some pro gamers as famous as they were.
Yeah but that's because progamers are the ones who play enough and have enough time to come up with new builds... amateur theorycrafting won't take you too far. Although I'm not saying it's not worth trying
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On December 10 2008 08:39 Chill wrote:
Suffice it to say you didn't give any tangible ideas so it's hard to comment on what you're saying. You're talking about cutting production for facilities, which every race does. In fact that's the basis of the shift from standard 12/11/16 to 12/11/13. It's hard to tell when you want us to further cut and for how long since you never go past the theorycrafting stage.
StarCraft, and specifically Zerg, is mainly about balancing economy, tech, production and army. The problem I see is you're advocating an early shift to production, which forfeits either tech or economy (or both). It could be overcome, but without specific ideas it's hard to comment on.
I think the idea is similar in concept to building a heavy mutaling force in ZvT after your initial harass.
Normally in ZvT the flow is similar to Zerg 12h, Terran 1/2rax expo's. Zerg starts a muta harass while teching to Lurker, then take 3rd --> hive, etc.
Then you look at the crazy Zerg concept. Which is muta harass into heavy muta/ling mid game, instead of lurker/ling/scourge.
The idea is that your opponents mid game push is designed to counter your macro whoring and taking a third gas with lurker. But when taken by surprise by a heavy muta/ling force instead of what they have become accustomed to, which is the lurker ling force. They get fucked up. The sheer mobility of the muta ling force completely overwhelms the terran, they can't micro away from a burrowed lurker like they are used to and pick off the lings, they are now getting flanked from completely mobile mutaling which can follow them to their death.
Then most Zergs would follow that up with a HARD counter to the expo of the Terran. Naturally pushing such heavy muta/ling would put you at an economical disadvantage, however if you use your tactical advantage you gained from pushing more units and use it to damage is economic edge to where you end up better off then you have successfully abused the dynamic of the Zerg race. Now with your heavy hatcheries you can further push your drone economy and push far ahead while his production has now been halted/slowed.
I thought he was getting at using your heavy production to counter their greed. Like after you take down there first assault, you now have a heavy amount of units to counter with. The more units and less economy, the more effective your counter will be. The thing about Terran and Protoss when they cut probe/scv production for units is they can only replenish in relation to there nexii and command center count. Zerg is not limited to 30 seconds per worker, multiplied by number of nexus. Or whatever the rate is. If we have 5 hatcheries building up into our massive muta/ling force, we can then turn that info 5 hatcheries of drone production.
There was a post a long time ago by Physician or Bill307 I think? Called Tactical vs Something which I think defined this pretty well, or at least acted as an extension of his economic ideas.
To summarize, I think the main idea is using our flexibility to hurt their inflexibility. If they kill 12 of my workers, I have 4 hatcheries to replace instantly, they need to make them from 2-3 CC's or whatever they have. I know its not THAT cut and dry, but I was just simplifying it.
But the idea he is trying to use has been used, it however is less effective with better scouting because it requires somewhat of an element of surprise, which can be considered a risk especially on higher levels of play in pro scene with extremely good scouting, this all just becomes incredibly risky.
Its high risk, high reward. You can win and look like you DOMINATED because of your sacrifice, or you can loose embarrassingly. If a Terran scouts your GIANT muta/ling ball he might whore up 8 more firebat and just engage then, FB's melt your Zergling and make it muta vs marine/med. and well, that won't end up pretty.
This is just another form of an all in imo, but a cute one with the ability to adapt.
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What's the purpose of economy? Increasing production. Of course, going by this, you could as a terran go for 3rax at 4 supply. You'd get a really fast rush, your opponent wouldn't have enough to stop the rush in time. What's the problem, then? The fact that your economy can't support those 4rax. Just like a 2 base 13 drone economy can't support 6 hatches, making those hatcheries essentially useless. I once played vs a beginning Zerg who was massing hatches, he had like 8 hatcheries total in a ZvT. They make a nice sound when they pop to the first MnM push since you have no defense.
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I brought this very same concept up in the past.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=65635
Players like Blackman/July/Savior already understand
this concept. Players like [NC]Yellow either hated playing
a macro style or never figured this out.
Hatcheries give you not the ability to add production,
rather, but to MULTIPLY.
This is why a one-base zerg such as Tsunami
can transition into a normal mid-game with a lot
of macro.
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BruceLee is right. I hope to try and identify and correctly explain this economic flexibility further in my 2.0 guide for the Cocaine play style.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9745/zergeconomygg8.jpg)
