|
Artosis
United States2140 Posts
Savior doesn't have enough sunkens. Nada rushes in with his marine medic force. Savior grabs all his sunkens at once and targets perfectly. Bam medic gone. Bam medic gone. Bam marine gone. Bam marine gone. here come the drones. Sorry Nada, Savior doesn't need enough sunkens anymore.
I hope you are lucky enough to have seen Pusan PvT. He maxes in like 12 to 14 minutes. It is one of the most scary ridiculous things you can witness. An unreal amount of units everywhere so fast its overwhelming. With MBS suddenly hungtran doesn't need maphack to be good. He too can max in 12 to 14 minutes. 1z. Every gate is making zealots. 1click. All the gates are rallied to the same place. 1d. Every gate is making dragoons.
Have you ever seen iloveoov play? Without a doubt the best terran macro in the world. Any time you look at his army you will be amazed because he will have more then you ever thought possible. This is his strength. He is a sloppy player but he makes up for that in pure macro. 1v2t. Look at me I'm iloveoov jr. Try it. 1v2t. Sorry oov you are out of a job. Even Casy can TvP now.
At low levels MBS won't make a difference. The smarter player will still win. Both newbies will still forget depots and make strategic blunders. They will attack poorly into a well defended position. The game will in essence be the same. MBS does not make the game more fun. No one has ever played SC1 and thought "well if this had MBS I would really like it".
At high levels MBS will ruin competition. SC2 will be WarCraft 4. Have you played WC3? The supply limit is 90. Units are like 2 to 4 supply a piece. Every single competitive player can get the same amount of units in the same time. StarCraft is much older and much more well developed. Korea supports 300 progamers and all of them are at different levels of play. Not one player can macro like iloveoov except for iloveoov. There is no other protoss like Pusan. There is not another Reach. While we have a diverse and interesting pro scene that allows players to be macro style (oov and pusan) or to be micro style (boxer and casy) war3 does not. MBS makes games easier. Every time you make a game easier you hurt the competitive scene. Newbies will have fun either way.
Please say no to MBS.
|
Oh for the love of God!
Ban me if you must, but I want this thread to go down with me. 
|
At least a mbs without MB-hotkeying or something...
I tend to agree with the op
|
|
|
Never knew MBS helped you build gates, do gate timing, expand timing, when to add/stop workers, defend harasses. But hey, every smart person knows 4z5z6z7z = macro! Warcraft 4 ahhhhhh
-____-
|
I'm going to bump it, just because you had nothing to contribute to the thread Chor 
That aside, I think a lot of these new features can easily be implemented as options. Let the pro's decide for themselves how they want to play and critique it amongst themselves.
|
I sort of agree. MBS will make some things less impressive while not really adding anything to competitive play. But imagine all the whines they would get from new players and reviewers if they didn't have MBS. People are spoiled by today's RTS's and might not have the patience to keep playing SC2 without comfort features like MBS and auto-mining.
|
I don't think the comparison holds water because it's going to be a very different game anyways. SC2 will have specific skills that separate players out, as bad, good, and great. They don't have to be the same ones as in SCBW, and the balance will be different anyways.
In your example, for instance, targetting medics like that can be made a requirement; if MBS is present they won't Z>T as a result, they will have to balance the matchup differently as a result. If everyone can max in 12 minutes (what will the cap be in SC2 anyways?), other features of the balance and the gameplay will be used to make sure it's a good game.
Even though SC2 won't be "on top of" SCBW's balance to begin with, even if it was, then we could consider your argument, I still don't think MBS would be impossible to implement. Many things would have to change, to keep the game good, but it would be possible. And that's why it's not an issue for SC2, because they are in a phase where many things are changing, as we speak. They have the same opportunity to make the game (SC2) good with MBS as, they do without it.
They are going to add features like that because the majority of people buying the game are going to expect to have the burden of "chores" lessened with "new, modern RTS features." I think you can make a game good with or without MBS so I personally wouldn't bother with it, but if players wish they had it, SC2 should pretty much give it to them.
|
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 30 2007 21:04 b_unnies wrote:
lol? iloveoov sloppy?
Sloppy micro for sure.
|
Artosis
United States2140 Posts
Chodorkovskiy : not constructive
minus_human : F2 double click gateway. same thing.
b_unnies : go watch xellos play then go watch oov play.
uriel- : watch a replay with a pencil and a piece of paper and you too will have these timings.
][-][eretic : maybe. seems risky. we were given multiple speeds in sc1. what if we chose FAST?
Xiberia : not having MBS will NEVER be the reason for someone quitting. EVER. totally illogical. someone that newbie who would quit over it probably doesn't even know what it is. some newbie who played an rts with it probably wouldn't even notice to be honest.
lugggy : you missed the point completely. i was pointing out what MBS would do to the great game of starcraft. you take this to mean that sc2 = sc1. nope. im just pointing out ways that MBS can destroy an excellent game. newbies are not burdened with chores. do you remember when you started playing? i made a bunch of cannons off about 8 probes then watched my scout fly across the map and attack a row of missle turrets. then i sat watching as a computer sent 5 hydras into my cannons. anyone smart enough to think that clicking on buildings is a CHORE is a competitive player and thus is already developing the skill sets needed for macro.
FrozenArbiter : yep.
|
MBS doesn't allow you to do something you couldn't before. It's only useful for people too lazy to spend 5 seconds clicking all their gateways. You still have to remember to actually do it every 20 seconds, the game won't remind you of it, MBS-enabled or not.
|
They mean 'sloppy' on the progame scale. So compared to other top pros.
|
Artosis
United States2140 Posts
LG)Sabbath : actually the game does remind you. every unit says something as they pop out and the minimap also shows you that something finished. pressing 1z after seeing that while focusing all your attention on microing a battle would not be hard competitively speaking. boxer would have perhaps never lost a game if this were the case.
|
Well Artosis I agree with you that MBS applied with no other changes would ruin the great game of SCBW. I believe I said that in my initial post. I simply said that this point does not mean MBS is inherently bad, for SCBW or especially for SC2--which I still believe. Therefore, MBS does not really "destroy an excellent game." You are simply talking about on big change with no balance adjustments to go with it. With balance adjustments MBS would not destroy anything in SCBW, and this is doubly true in SC2, where the balance is not even set yet. So I don't think I missed your point.
|
Artosis
United States2140 Posts
lugggy : it takes away from the highest levels of play. we have a diverse pro scene in the best RTS game ever made for a reason. there are all sorts of ways you can interpret this beautiful game of starcraft and compete on the highest levels. MBS takes away most of this. if SC2 will be fast paced with many units then macro will be a big deal. taking away macro aspects in competitive play is not a good thing.
|
Even with MBS there can be just as much, or even more, of a macro aspect for higher levels of play. Or other things equally challenging for them. MBS would make SCBW easier, by itself, like I said, but countless things can be done to counterbalance it, and SC2, a completely new game, doesn't necessarily lack the competitiveness you are talking about even if it has MBS...
|
On September 30 2007 21:30 Artosis3 wrote:
LG)Sabbath : actually the game does remind you. every unit says something as they pop out and the minimap also shows you that something finished. pressing 1z after seeing that while focusing all your attention on microing a battle would not be hard competitively speaking. boxer would have perhaps never lost a game if this were the case.
That is not a feature of MBS. If you think that going throgh gateways or factories takes pro gamers time, you should watch an FPVOD of iloveoov or pusan. They do it in possibly <1sec.
The reason people stack up money is because their multitasking is not good enough. Even if you are reminded with sounds to go back to your base, most people don't realize they sometimes can do this in the heat of battle and instead keep microing needlessly.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Nice post artosis~
100% agree, especially being a huge pusan fan... having everyone with spirit macro would suck ass
|
CruiseR
Poland4014 Posts
I do totally agree with Artosis .
|
Artosis
United States2140 Posts
luggy : what? you keep saying things without anything to back it up. "there can be just as much or even more of a macro aspect at higher levels of play". macro would be like warcraft3 which is infact LESS not as much or more as you put it. apparently according to you countless things can be done to counter balance something that takes away from variety of skills at the top levels. please name just a small 15 of these countless things for me please.
LG)Sabbath : I never said it was a feature of MBS. you said it didn't exist so i simply pointed out that it did. leaving a battle for 1 to 2 seconds to click on all your gateways to make units is VASTLY different then mid battle still watching the battle pressing "1z" to have every gateway now making units. even 1 second is a long time in a game like starcraft when you are microing in a battle. not having to look away from battle is also a concern.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
