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On October 01 2007 02:41 orangedude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2007 01:18 Aphelion wrote:
I'm starting to think that instead of posting stuff on here, the better foreign players like Artosis / Nony / Tasteless / Day / Testie should just indicate their position, maybe with a small opinion snippet, and send that to Blizzard. There are too many noobs with agendas here cluttering the argument. I think they already have. Not sure what Blizzard's responses, if any, are considering that in the Q&A batch Karune replied "absolutely" to MBS and automining. Second of all, I'm quite sure they understand just as well what the possible consequences are of including MBS without adding anything meaningful to make up for it. Blizzard isn't stupid. They're fully aware of the pro-scene in Korea and can see how important SBS is to the original game.
Don't be presumptuous. Like I said before, it is not for you to judge what our or Blizzard's conclusions should be. If they are going to develop SC2 with that attitude, they wont' be coming to TL.net. If they ignore the game's gosus' almost unanimous warnings, I doubt they will be making a game good enough for me to want to play.
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On October 01 2007 02:50 Aphelion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2007 02:41 orangedude wrote:On October 01 2007 01:18 Aphelion wrote:
I'm starting to think that instead of posting stuff on here, the better foreign players like Artosis / Nony / Tasteless / Day / Testie should just indicate their position, maybe with a small opinion snippet, and send that to Blizzard. There are too many noobs with agendas here cluttering the argument. I think they already have. Not sure what Blizzard's responses, if any, are considering that in the Q&A batch Karune replied "absolutely" to MBS and automining. Second of all, I'm quite sure they understand just as well what the possible consequences are of including MBS without adding anything meaningful to make up for it. Blizzard isn't stupid. They're fully aware of the pro-scene in Korea and can see how important SBS is to the original game. Don't be presumptuous. Like I said before, it is not for you to judge what our or Blizzard's conclusions should be. If they are going to develop SC2 with that attitude, they wont' be coming to TL.net. If they ignore the game's gosus' almost unanimous warnings, I doubt they will be making a game good enough for me to want to play.
I don't see what this hostility is called for. I never judged what their conclusions are. I just said I'm not sure of what their responses are to the complaints from SC pros atm (aside from the Q&A response and the Blizzcon build of SC2). Maybe you'd like to enlighten me? Do you honestly think Blizzard doesn't know that SBS is important to the balance of the original SC?
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You guys aren't being proactive at all. The fact is that automine and MBS will be in SC2. The scenario we should be discussing is: What would you add to SCBW, to make it more competitively viable, if it came with MBS? Because that's obviously what Blizzard is thinking.
I think the problem with a lot of your arguments is that Blizzard had more connection with the game before this high macro era. The level of macro now a days is insane, I just hope Blizzard has kept with the times.
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On September 30 2007 20:56 Artosis3 wrote:
Savior doesn't have enough sunkens. Nada rushes in with his marine medic force. Savior grabs all his sunkens at once and targets perfectly. Bam medic gone. Bam medic gone. Bam marine gone. Bam marine gone. here come the drones. Sorry Nada, Savior doesn't need enough sunkens anymore.
Please say no to MBS.
However Nada with MBS has better macro, so medics keep coming fast with additional marines, Savior pumps exacty as much lings as he needs + more sunks, so a continuous battle keeps raging on in front of saviors' base, while the two pros continue pumping units while teching-droping and expanding. So a 10 minutes' non stop battle takes place in the studio, the terrain is full of corpses,the commentators are yelling and korean girls scream the names SAvior, Nada... What a game!
An example of how a MBS can make a RTS game better.
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On September 30 2007 21:19 FrozenArbiter wrote:Sloppy micro for sure.
Grab, attack+move gogo :D
edit: But seriously, if there was a limit to hotkeying buildings (maybe like 4 buildings to a key) then maybe it would fix the problem at higher level play while also helping the newbies at lower level?
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Something that should be noted by the people saying that MBS will not affect balance.
The example given in the OP shows how balance will, in fact, be affected.
People can now focus fire cannons and sunkens, as well as turrets and spores, therefore making M&Ms nearly useless offensively, since the medics would just die to defensive buildings. And so they will either need to improve medics, which will end up imbalancing M&Ms, or they will need to nerf sunkens, which will then make it less useful against zealots and zerglings, or they will leave them as is, and terran will have pretty much no early game offensive units.
Also, air units can now be focus fired down, therefore making most air units incredibly hard to use. The only real reason why dropships can actually get past a turret blockade is because there a lot of other things to get shot down. Now the players can just double click a turret, then right click a dropship. Instant death of the dropship. Now they just need to repeat it a few more times, and the threat of a drop is nearly 0.
Carriers really only survive against turrets and spores and cannons because the interceptors take the hits, then get healed when they return to the carrier, resulting in the carrier never getting into the combat and taking hits. Once a carrier starts taking hits, it falls fairly quickly. With MBS, carriers will start to take the hits, and carriers will be harder to use.
The lack of air unit and transport effectiveness will result in the air units being entirely support, and this will make strategies less diverse. In addition to the lack of air resulting in less diversity in strategies, most offensive moves will come down to mass production or range, since people can now micro buildings.
[Edit]And to Titanidis, you're forgetting one major fact. Savior also has MBS. So in addition to making sunkens and microing them to kill medics, two keys can be used to produce units, therefore giving Savior a very large advantage of sunkens + units, with the unit count increasing, while Nada's medic count will remain around the same.
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On October 01 2007 03:07 TheShizno wrote:
Something that should be noted by the people saying that MBS will not affect balance.
The example given in the OP shows how balance will, in fact, be affected.
People can now focus fire cannons and sunkens, as well as turrets and spores, therefore making M&Ms nearly useless offensively, since the medics would just die to defensive buildings. And so they will either need to improve medics, which will end up imbalancing M&Ms, or they will need to nerf sunkens, which will then make it less useful against zealots and zerglings, or they will leave them as is, and terran will have pretty much no early game offensive units.
How about early tank push to spikehead the attack? Early M&M is currently not meant to be able to bust past a 4-5 sunk line in SC or else ZvT would be imbalanced, and every game would just require the Terran to mass up some infantry and auto-win. If the Zerg made less than 4 sunks with MBS, no matter how much focus firing is used, you won't even be able to take down one medic in one hit, and meanwhile one of your sunks is going down fast. Cannons already >>> M&M focus fire or not. None of this will change.
On October 01 2007 03:07 TheShizno wrote:
Also, air units can now be focus fired down, therefore making most air units incredibly hard to use. The only real reason why dropships can actually get past a turret blockade is because there a lot of other things to get shot down. Now the players can just double click a turret, then right click a dropship. Instant death of the dropship. Now they just need to repeat it a few more times, and the threat of a drop is nearly 0.
Air units are already being focus fired down by MM. Ever watched a ZvT? Dropships/shuttles usually come alone right now. Adding focus fire ability wouldn't change this situation at all. If you mean an ovie drop where units start unloading onto cannons, then this would still work, as even if some ovies are lost before completely unloading, it don't take long to start pouring out and destroy the defense. Another solution would be to bring a few decoy overlords at the front with no units to soak the incoming focus fire.
On October 01 2007 03:07 TheShizno wrote:
Carriers really only survive against turrets and spores and cannons because the interceptors take the hits, then get healed when they return to the carrier, resulting in the carrier never getting into the combat and taking hits. Once a carrier starts taking hits, it falls fairly quickly. With MBS, carriers will start to take the hits, and carriers will be harder to use.
Carrier range > turrets. Also, by this reasoning goliaths should be severely imbalanced vs carriers. Why do Toss even bother to get them when it's clearly suicide against all the focus fire.
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On October 01 2007 03:00 Titanidis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2007 20:56 Artosis3 wrote:
Savior doesn't have enough sunkens. Nada rushes in with his marine medic force. Savior grabs all his sunkens at once and targets perfectly. Bam medic gone. Bam medic gone. Bam marine gone. Bam marine gone. here come the drones. Sorry Nada, Savior doesn't need enough sunkens anymore.
Please say no to MBS. However Nada with MBS has better macro, so medics keep coming fast with additional marines, Savior pumps exacty as much lings as he needs + more sunks, so a continuous battle keeps raging on in front of saviors' base, while the two pros continue pumping units while teching-droping and expanding. So a 10 minutes' non stop battle takes place in the studio, the terrain is full of corpses,the commentators are yelling and korean girls scream the names SAvior, Nada... What a game! An example of how a MBS can make a RTS game better.
At that early in the game, Nada will have perfect macro anyways.And if Savior can't judge larvae count correctly, he would suck MBS or no MBS. And the 10 minutes non stop battle would suck ass cuz any semi pro would do it, and the FPVODs would be them focusing on their own units 90% of the time like current BW noobs.
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On October 01 2007 03:28 Aphelion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2007 03:00 Titanidis wrote:On September 30 2007 20:56 Artosis3 wrote:
Savior doesn't have enough sunkens. Nada rushes in with his marine medic force. Savior grabs all his sunkens at once and targets perfectly. Bam medic gone. Bam medic gone. Bam marine gone. Bam marine gone. here come the drones. Sorry Nada, Savior doesn't need enough sunkens anymore.
Please say no to MBS. However Nada with MBS has better macro, so medics keep coming fast with additional marines, Savior pumps exacty as much lings as he needs + more sunks, so a continuous battle keeps raging on in front of saviors' base, while the two pros continue pumping units while teching-droping and expanding. So a 10 minutes' non stop battle takes place in the studio, the terrain is full of corpses,the commentators are yelling and korean girls scream the names SAvior, Nada... What a game! An example of how a MBS can make a RTS game better. At that early in the game, Nada will have perfect macro anyways.And if Savior can't judge larvae count correctly, he would suck MBS or no MBS. And the 10 minutes non stop battle would suck ass cuz any semi pro would do it, and the FPVODs would be them focusing on their own units 90% of the time like current BW noobs.
So just beacuse noobs focus on their army in BW its boring to watch pros focusing on their army?
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Dont' worry, if SC2 will suck balls like everyone fears, we can all go back to SC1. 
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On October 01 2007 03:32 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2007 03:28 Aphelion wrote:On October 01 2007 03:00 Titanidis wrote:On September 30 2007 20:56 Artosis3 wrote:
Savior doesn't have enough sunkens. Nada rushes in with his marine medic force. Savior grabs all his sunkens at once and targets perfectly. Bam medic gone. Bam medic gone. Bam marine gone. Bam marine gone. here come the drones. Sorry Nada, Savior doesn't need enough sunkens anymore.
Please say no to MBS. However Nada with MBS has better macro, so medics keep coming fast with additional marines, Savior pumps exacty as much lings as he needs + more sunks, so a continuous battle keeps raging on in front of saviors' base, while the two pros continue pumping units while teching-droping and expanding. So a 10 minutes' non stop battle takes place in the studio, the terrain is full of corpses,the commentators are yelling and korean girls scream the names SAvior, Nada... What a game! An example of how a MBS can make a RTS game better. At that early in the game, Nada will have perfect macro anyways.And if Savior can't judge larvae count correctly, he would suck MBS or no MBS. And the 10 minutes non stop battle would suck ass cuz any semi pro would do it, and the FPVODs would be them focusing on their own units 90% of the time like current BW noobs. So just beacuse noobs focus on their army in BW its boring to watch pros focusing on their army?
Yes, multitasking ftw.
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On October 01 2007 03:37 thoraxe wrote:Dont' worry, if SC2 will suck balls like everyone fears, we can all go back to SC1.
This is a very good argument for the pro mbs side, why try to make a game as good as BW when you can try to make it better?
Eventhough its easier to copy bw, if we do that we will never surpass it and thus the whole game is useless since we can just as well play bw.
However if they succeed well get an even better game than before.
All of the starcraft fans wont migrate to starcraft 2 if mbs flops it, just like they didnt migrate to wc3 since wc3's hero system and popcap and all that flopped it.
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But you don't see the multitasking except in FPVOD. TV matches are broadcast in observer mode where 95% of the game is focused on the battle.
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On October 01 2007 03:41 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2007 03:37 thoraxe wrote:Dont' worry, if SC2 will suck balls like everyone fears, we can all go back to SC1. This is a very good argument for the pro mbs side, why try to make a game as good as BW when you can try to make it better? Eventhough its easier to copy bw, if we do that we will never surpass it and thus the whole game is useless since we can just as well play bw. However if they succeed well get an even better game than before. All of the starcraft fans wont migrate to starcraft 2 if mbs flops it, just like they didnt migrate to wc3 since wc3's hero system and popcap and all that flopped it.
Because you will be killing the BW community by doing so. The BW community has withstood so much and built up so much for itself without Blizzard's help. PGT being built up, then being hacked, WGT being owned by Blizzard - now if Blizzard kills us with SCII that we never thought was coming out - oh the irony.
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On October 01 2007 03:25 orangedude wrote:
How about early tank push to spikehead the attack? Early M&M is currently not meant to be able to bust past a 4-5 sunk line in SC or else ZvT would be imbalanced, and every game would just require the Terran to mass up some infantry and auto-win. If the Zerg made less than 4 sunks with MBS, no matter how much focus firing is used, you won't even be able to take down one medic in one hit, and meanwhile one of your sunks is going down fast. That won't change much.
I suppose that adding in a few tanks to take down a few sunkens with M&M support would actually work pretty well compared to just using M&Ms. But the way I view M&Ms is that the marines take the hits and heal so quickly that they don't die right away. Because of the rapid healing, I can generally kill a few sunkens before my marines die off. If they player could focus fire and kill a few medics, then my healing power will be greatly reduced, but you do have a good points, and really all MBS will do here is affect strategies and not balance.
Air units are already being focus fired down by MM. Ever watched a ZvT? Dropships/shuttles usually come alone right now. Adding focus fire ability wouldn't change this situation at all. If you mean an ovie drop where units start unloading onto cannons, then this would still work, as even if some ovies are lost before completely unloading, it don't take long to start pouring out and destroy the defense. Another solution would be to bring a few decoy overlords at the front with no units to soak the incoming focus fire.
Actually, I haven't watched many ZvT games, so generally I go by what people talk about, and from what I've heard, people used things like matrixed wraiths to take hits, or using many transports to drop at a time, but apparently I'm a bit behind the times. So I suppose my point doesn't quite work anymore.
Carrier range > turrets. Also, by this reasoning goliaths should be severely imbalanced vs carriers. Why do Toss even bother to get them when it's clearly suicide against all the focus fire.
I think that the reason why goliaths aren't imbalanced is because goliaths are quite weak compared to a carrier, and I'm pretty sure a carrier can run away much better. I think it all really goes down to micro (if we exclude the variable of massing). Whoever can micro better will win over the other force, provided reinforcements don't arrive.
But, since carriers outrange turrets, it actually seems that balance generally won't be affected too much, if current tactics are used. Interesting. So really only shorter range units would get affected by defensive building focus fire, and zealots and zerglings tend to travel fast enough to avoid getting killed incredibly quickly even when being focus fired.
Ok, I think that all my points were countered, and pretty well at that. Balance won't be affected greatly by MBS.
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On October 01 2007 03:43 orangedude wrote:
But you don\'t see the multitasking except in FPVOD. TV matches are broadcast in observer mode where 95% of the game is focused on the battle.
Therein lies the difference between the casual watcher and the ones who actually play the game - we appreciate what goes on in the game deeper than simple looks and flashy lights.
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if i wanted to watch pro's focus on there army 90% of the time.. i would go watch WC3... obviously
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 01 2007 00:26 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2007 00:17 Manit0u wrote:
Edit: I also checked if the thread creator is someone who has contributed here in any way and all I can think of is that's a person who appeared here when the SC2 forum showed up.
I see a lot of people trying to get into the hardcore starcraft community(Or any large and strong community for that matter) by trying to agree with everything the "Cool" guys say. Theyre just the average pawn trying to get accepted to a strong group wich will strengthen their ego. Now i dont say that the OP here is such a person, just that ive a lot of posts wich are very likely to be with this purpose on this forum.
Ehh, I don't know artosis well but he's one of the most dedicated BW players outside korea lol
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On October 01 2007 03:25 orangedude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2007 03:07 TheShizno wrote:
Something that should be noted by the people saying that MBS will not affect balance.
The example given in the OP shows how balance will, in fact, be affected.
People can now focus fire cannons and sunkens, as well as turrets and spores, therefore making M&Ms nearly useless offensively, since the medics would just die to defensive buildings. And so they will either need to improve medics, which will end up imbalancing M&Ms, or they will need to nerf sunkens, which will then make it less useful against zealots and zerglings, or they will leave them as is, and terran will have pretty much no early game offensive units.
How about early tank push to spikehead the attack? Early M&M is currently not meant to be able to bust past a 4-5 sunk line in SC or else ZvT would be imbalanced, and every game would just require the Terran to mass up some infantry and auto-win. If the Zerg made less than 4 sunks with MBS, no matter how much focus firing is used, you won't even be able to take down one medic in one hit, and meanwhile one of your sunks is going down fast. Cannons already >>> M&M focus fire or not. None of this will change. Show nested quote +On October 01 2007 03:07 TheShizno wrote:
Also, air units can now be focus fired down, therefore making most air units incredibly hard to use. The only real reason why dropships can actually get past a turret blockade is because there a lot of other things to get shot down. Now the players can just double click a turret, then right click a dropship. Instant death of the dropship. Now they just need to repeat it a few more times, and the threat of a drop is nearly 0.
Air units are already being focus fired down by MM. Ever watched a ZvT? Dropships/shuttles usually come alone right now. Adding focus fire ability wouldn't change this situation at all. If you mean an ovie drop where units start unloading onto cannons, then this would still work, as even if some ovies are lost before completely unloading, it don't take long to start pouring out and destroy the defense. Another solution would be to bring a few decoy overlords at the front with no units to soak the incoming focus fire. Show nested quote +On October 01 2007 03:07 TheShizno wrote:
Carriers really only survive against turrets and spores and cannons because the interceptors take the hits, then get healed when they return to the carrier, resulting in the carrier never getting into the combat and taking hits. Once a carrier starts taking hits, it falls fairly quickly. With MBS, carriers will start to take the hits, and carriers will be harder to use.
Carrier range > turrets. Also, by this reasoning goliaths should be severely imbalanced vs carriers. Why do Toss even bother to get them when it's clearly suicide against all the focus fire.
mnm focus firing on air units is different than building focus firing on air units
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On October 01 2007 03:45 Aphelion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2007 03:43 orangedude wrote:
But you don\'t see the multitasking except in FPVOD. TV matches are broadcast in observer mode where 95% of the game is focused on the battle. Therein lies the difference between the casual watcher and the ones who actually play the game - we appreciate what goes on in the game deeper than simple looks and flashy lights.
Obviously, but for a thriving pro-scene to be possible like in Korea, the ratio of casual gamers to pro-gamers must be like 10:1 at least for it to be successful. If it were marketable, they would be broadcasting games in dual FP mode or something instead of observer mode.
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EPT
