EPTLets imagine SC1 with MBS. - Page 29
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orangedude
Canada220 Posts
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
its done by disregarding all the wasted actions like idly cycling through 123123 etc, and things like that. its more worthwhile to talk about because its much closer to how many actions you actually need to play the game, which is what matters when determining how complex you can make the gameplay. apm is artificially inflated by spam, not a good indicator of how fast you actually need to be. | ||
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Wizard
Poland5055 Posts
On October 08 2007 23:05 lolwut wrote: ![[image loading]](http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/6593/49906193wl7.jpg) Wait, you signed up to post that? :/ | ||
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orangedude
Canada220 Posts
On October 09 2007 04:04 Aphelion wrote: The key is that he mentioned EAPM ~250 in battles. You argued that by saying in battles you need 400-600 APM. You think a pro War3 player will have spare apm to waste in a major battle by "spamming" when their whole game is at stake there? They will be using every action they can to micro faster/better than the opponent and gain an edge. I was pointing out an observation, that most top level players have 400-600 battle apm. On October 09 2007 04:07 IdrA wrote: you* dont know how its calculated its done by disregarding all the wasted actions like idly cycling through 123123 etc, and things like that. its more worthwhile to talk about because its much closer to how many actions you actually need to play the game, which is what matters when determining how complex you can make the gameplay. apm is artificially inflated by spam, not a good indicator of how fast you actually need to be. Then you don't need more than 100-200 EAPM to play SC. Rarely do you ever see a Korean go over 200 EAPM. Even Savior's total APM is mid 200. Unless you know the exact formula, you don't know either. Of course I have an idea as to how it's calculated, but for example you cannot assume cycling groups during a battle as "wasted" apm as it's important to awareness and precise unit control. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
but to approach perfection? youd need well over where any of the progamers are now. not really sure what you're trying to prove, but the playing speed required by sc would be just fine for sc2, casual players can play the game just fine (by their standards) at a very slow pace. speed is only required when you start playing the game at a very high level. not knowing the formula doesnt mean i dont know, i know they calculate it by disregarding actions that have no effect on the game, like single clicking hotkeys without giving any orders, and repeat actions. that means its a more accurate representation of how much the player is actually doing in a game, which is all that matters. and you misunderstood what i meant by cycling hotkeys. 123123123 does almost nothing, you have to double click the hotkey to move your screen to the units or youd have to give an order after selecting the hotkey for it to apply to unit control. only thing it is useful for is to check the wireframes for general health, and you dont need to cycle through multiple times for that. | ||
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Failsafe
United States1298 Posts
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
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orangedude
Canada220 Posts
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
Just watch Nada at a constant 400apm it's very hard to believe WC3 pros even approach his level, I'll believe it when I see it. | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On October 09 2007 06:43 orangedude wrote: I don't know why you're trying to prove me wrong at every step, but I was just pointing something out and I didn't misread anything. Failsafe is correct, but you don't get the message and I'm done here. You seem to think that most of the 400-600 apm in battle is wasted when this is in no way the case. EAPM means nothing, unless you want to admit that one half to one third of all Korean SC players' apms do nothing for them, because their EAPMs are much lower than actual APM. Same deal here, the higher your apm in battle, the more you approach to micro perfection (and no one is close). Pretty simple idea. I never said it was wasted. I pointed out that he was referring to EAPM, you were referring to pure APM. Simple | ||
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orangedude
Canada220 Posts
On October 09 2007 07:10 mahnini wrote: Are there any FPVODs of WC3 progamers? Here you go. FPVOD of Sky vs Moon from PGL. It's not that 400 apm is "required" to micro a battle, but every additional bit helps and brings you closer to perfection during a major one, even if it comes with diminishing returns. Whatever, I don't know why War3 was even brought up in the first place. So that's all I'm going to say about this. | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
THAT WAS ALL. | ||
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orangedude
Canada220 Posts
Did I say he was wrong with the 250 EAPM claim? NO, just said that it's not the whole picture. Jesus. | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On October 08 2007 22:38 maybenexttime wrote: Even Grubby said that you need no more than 150 APM. It peaks in battles (up to 250 of effective APM), and is below 60 in non-battle situation, unless you're a crazy spammer. ;; On October 09 2007 03:16 orangedude wrote: Um... considering how utterly crucial every single battle is in War3, your micro can either make or break the game for you. The higher your apm in battle, the better. There is no "peak" where you don't gain anymore, because you can always micro better than your opponent (no one is even near perfect). That's why you'll see 400-600 apm in most battles. Anyways, its not even debatable that BW requires much more APM. Average APM for War3 pro is what, 220-230ish? Thats on the very very low end for a BW pro these days, and even a lot of amateurs have higher than that. Typically it gets up to 270-320 among Korean pros, even the classic example of Savior has higher APM now. And then you have a lot of 400+ apmers throughout 20-30 min games. And still, they don't nearly play the game perfectly. | ||
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orangedude
Canada220 Posts
My point for the very last time is that there is the no real "peak" apm in a battle, because no one is close to perfect micro. NOT to say his EAPM claim was wrong. You completely missed the whole point of my post and latched onto one detail, and attack me for some reason. And what faulty data? I don't see you bringing up SC pro's APM as an EAPM now do you? So why is EAPM only relevant to War3? | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
SC progamers are fast. End apm discussion plz. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17850 Posts
That's how a game with ~200 apm looks like in wc3. 4K^Grubby fpvod by request. Edit: And for comparison a game played with ~300apm. | ||
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lugggy
450 Posts
Take APM without hotkey or rallies and you get a number that can be compared between war3 and sc. Go to 14:29 on that "300 APM" video and tell me that's speed. It's a guy staring at his 10 units. God. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17850 Posts
On October 09 2007 21:30 lugggy wrote: War3 programers get higher APM because they have more time to spam hotkeys, which boost APM more than other kinds of speed. In that FPVOD you posted, he slows way down when it comes time to say, place his farm. Or move the screen. Boxer was faster with 250 APM than those guys with 600 or w/e. Take APM without hotkey or rallies and you get a number that can be compared between war3 and sc. Go to 14:29 on that "300 APM" video and tell me that's speed. It's a guy staring at his 10 units. God. The game was more or less over then. | ||
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