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We all heard different explanations of P being the shittiest race to play on pro level... i'll give u my thoughts that hit me just moments ago while i was watching nadal vs davidenko (my mind works in mysterious ways i guess, lol)
In my opinion the whole 'imbalance' thing is a thing of maps and the impossibility to make maps perfectly balanced for both TvP and PvZ.
Basically i think of protoss as a race between the 2 extremes that are Terran and Zerg.
imo Terran likes maps with narrow passages, lots of cliffs:
vs Zerg it makes Z masses go thru filters and negate the effect of mass.
vs P, lots of cliffs and obstacles (like in R-Point) make tanks extremely powerful.
Also, imo, Zerg likes open maps so the masses can overwhelm anything.
So those are extremes, coz no matter the MU, Terr needs 'narrow' maps, Z wants wide maps.
On the other hand, Protoss in a different kind of situation:
vs T, they want more open space so they dont have to deal with tanks behind all kinds of obstacles.
vs Z however, their psi-intensive units cant handle Zerg's psi-light units on large open areas.
So here's the problem: u can make a Terran favouring map, u can make a Zerg favouring map, but u _cant_ make a protoss map.
In ideal situation, where map would be perfectly balanced, T should win 33%, Z should win 33%, P should win 33% of all games. Or to put this in other words, Kespa points would be divided 33%, 33%, 33%.
But when an unbalanced map gets into map pool, we get the current situation.
Lets say its a terr map; T will win more % vs both P and Z, while P will have slightly better % vs Z. in a perfect math world T will beat P in finals.
Now lets see a Zerg map;
Zerg owns both terr and Protoss, while protoss has higher % vs terran.
There are many factors that are very importat, draw for example. If toss gets lucky to meet many Terrs on Zerg maps, he can get far.
Also, if toss meets zergs on T maps, same story.
And while this may look like protoss is in the golden middle, its actually fucked up, coz im pretty sure everyone would rather win 1 OSL, and then not qualify for the next 2, rather than qualify for all 3 and do - nothing.
All in all, when u sum everything up, take the ideal 33% of P's points, take imbalanced maps into consideration, take lucky/unlucky draws, weaker/stronger players... U will still get protoss' % being lower than those of Terran and Zerg.
(BTW according to my theory, Nada > Anytime ^,^)
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When's the last island map anyone has seen?
The best maps recently are Arkanoid (Very macro intensive) New Peaks (guut) and that's about it.
The rest are still very macro intensive and the short rush distance in a map seems... non existant nowadays. CP was the last close map in forever.
And Let's stop whining about Protoss.. Toss players just suck. You guys are noobs. Stop bitching. God
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
"everyone would rather win 1 OSL, and then not qualify for the next 2, rather than qualify for all 3 and do - nothing." that kinda goes against the rest of your post since protoss has more starleague wins than zerg? zergs are actually then ones qualifying in mass then failing to win anything (savior and july are the only zerg starleague winners iirc?).
oh and r-point is like the best protoss map there is, hardly a terran map.
edit: gorush won an msl aswell (you are the golf king)
and the total ogn/mbc starleague wins excluding special events go like this: protoss-9 terran-16 zerg-5
there've been 3 special events (progamer open,king of kings & winners championship) all won by zergs.
so what we get from this is that p/z are historically equal when including special events and terran has more wins, mostly because they dominated the mbcgame starleagues due to bad maps(have both oov & nada winning 3 each...).
imbalance wru?!
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I think it depend a lot on the fact that Protoss demand a lot of fancy stuff to be really effective. Like reaverdrop havoc, High Templars obliterating mineral line, sneaky Dark Templars shutting down expos, Dark Archons and such, and at the same time be able to macro like mad and expo like a Zerg on crack. Gets quite micro intensive. And that shuttle with 2 High Templar that get intercepted without doing any damage cost a lot more than just the cost for the units lost, Same with Dark Templars/Reavers and whatnot.
Of course. Now I'm not a really good player and I know there is more to it than that. But I think Tossers needing to be inventive and fancy is quite true. At least on hight level.
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lol im not whining about protoss, coz im not even a protoss player, im just tryin to give a possible explanation to the imbalance.
I also dont give much importance to things that happened like 2 yrs ago (or more) when tosses actually won something. Game has evolved in that time, im writing this now, and its about current situation...
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its also important to note that the terran domination has mostly been the work of 4/5 players, the rest of the terrans not doing nearly as good at all, so the "imbalance" might be more of a talent influence from boxer/nada and into the new generation of terrans (oov, midas and so on), since if you take only the nonkorean community into account, the best players are mostly protoss and zerg and there are only a few good terrans
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On November 17 2006 04:44 nite2 wrote:
lol im not whining about protoss, coz im not even a protoss player, im just tryin to give a possible explanation to the imbalance.
I also dont give much importance to things that happened like 2 yrs ago (or more) when tosses actually won something. Game has evolved in that time, im writing this now, and its about current situation... well if we're talking about right now then you're going to have another protoss starleague win tomorrow so where's the imbalance?
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anytime better win so that these P imbal threads would have something to talk about...
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
lets not go here... again...
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Protoss aren't imbalanced.
Dont forget Plains 2 Hills, Guillotine and NFZ. =O
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On November 17 2006 05:05 MaTRiX[SiN] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2006 04:44 nite2 wrote:
lol im not whining about protoss, coz im not even a protoss player, im just tryin to give a possible explanation to the imbalance.
I also dont give much importance to things that happened like 2 yrs ago (or more) when tosses actually won something. Game has evolved in that time, im writing this now, and its about current situation... well if we're talking about right now then you're going to have another protoss starleague win tomorrow so where's the imbalance?
Even if anytime wins, it wont prove anything. I said toss players have lower win % than Z and T, i didnt say they cant win at all...
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Don't bring this kinda shit again.
There have been countless "TOSS IMBA OMFG" threads before and in the end, everytime it came to the conclusion of toss players who create these kinda crap just suck and everything in the BW world is balanced. It just all depends on the player.
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k i guess ur right.
even tho im terran, and i used to hate toss, now i really want them to start pwning, and i think i'll be rooting for anytime tomorow. I want anytime +1 other toss in top10.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Fuck all those who say "historically P has just as many starleague wins". Here's some RECENT things to chew on:
* One protoss in the Top 10 Kespa
* Two in the top 18 (compared to 9 zergs and 7 Terran)
* No protoss has EVER won an MSL
* In the past 7 OSL's starting from Gillette April 2004, Reach has one 2nd place and third place; PuSan has one 4th and one 3rd place; and Anytime has one victory. That translates to 5/28 of the last top 4 spots that Protoss has earned. Compare this to the 13/28 for Terran and 10/28 for Zerg.
* In the last 8 MSL's starting from September 2003, rA has finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 3rd; Kingdom has finished 3rd; and Reach 2nd. That means 6 top 4 finishes out of 32 places (keep in mind this only has iloveoov's dominance in it; not NaDa's) have gone to Protoss. If we take out Nal_rA, then toss has finished in the top 4 exactly TWICE since September 2003 in MSL's.
* And as a side note, Legend of the Fall huh? It doesn't even always work: iloveoov over BoxeR, Reach, YellOw (Ever August - November 2004)
You can't tell me that there is something seriously wrong judging from these statistics. How many top protoss players can you name? Now how many top Zerg/Terran players can youname?
I don't think it's because all the good players happen to be Zerg or Terran; or that for some reason Koreans hate the Protoss race and disproportionately play Zerg or Terran. I think the numbers are all pretty even to start out with; but it's just harder to succeed as Protoss than as Zerg or Terran. When asked in interviews, they always take as given the insane difficulty of PvZ and how it is tilted against the Protoss; you never hear that about ZvT.
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If you look on the November KESPA Ranking you see the top 10 is terran dominatet (6 terran 3zerg and only 1!protoss) the ranks from 11-20 are dominatet by zergs (6zergs 3Protoss 1Terran)
and the ranks from 21-30 are a protoss dominatet region (6 Protoss 2 Zergs 2 Terrans)
All in all we have 10 Protoss 11Zerg and 9terran players.
One the one hand this could show the good balance of the the three races because you have an equal number of Z,T,P users in top 30 but on the other hand it is and it was for months that there are not many Protoss Users in the top 10. (the highest number I remember was 3 but 2 only at the end of top 10).
Maybe the races are balanced even at progamer level but to be even the best of the programers seems to be more difficult for P users than for other users. Especially it is difficult for P Users to have a konstant skill.
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I guess peaks is the most balanced map presented (at least it seams that way so far).
Saying that protoss has many ways to abuse zerg is right = dt,ht,reaver ... but remeber what zerg does sunks his expansion and secures the above one with too.
That's why I think peaks are balanced because except your nat the expands don't cover another ones.
And if you try to drop - well shuttles take most time to build, are really expensive, lowest on Hp and slower than dropships.
So you must upgrade speed(because every good zerg will have scrouges round tha map)... but still you will probably lose it the time you deploy your troops because dt/ht nor reaver does shoot up and storming scrouges is not very satisfactory.
There are still unused units to tweak DA, Scout.
I remember someone saying maelstrom should affect buildings and yes it would be interesting to see if it would help vs mass sunkening.
Maybe making scouts normal air damage ? Yes you could probably secure your shuttles with 2 scouts(or maybe not) but they are still really expensive take too long to build and need cruicial speed upgrade(for which you need beacon and another 200/200 = 500/400).
If there is someone I would ask about PvZ imbalance and suggestions is Savior who is the true ZvP God and does probably understand the matchup most(or Ra from the protoss side).
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I'm pretty sure most of you didn't understand what he was trying to say. -_-
I agree with your theory, and it is part of the reason why there's never been a dominating Protoss player. The current osl and msl also seem to support your claim, as there were 3t 1p in osl, and 3z 1p in msl (ie maps sucked for Zerg in osl, were great for Terran and mediocre for p, and maps were great for Zergs in msl, sucked for Terran and were mediocre for p again, Anytime even said the maps were bad for Zerg in osl, and that he was happy he had to face so many Zergs). Island maps are the obvious exception, but they've never been too popular, and we haven't seen a pure island map for some time.
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On November 17 2006 04:29 psychosis wrote:
I think it depend a lot on the fact that Protoss demand a lot of fancy stuff to be really effective. Like reaverdrop havoc, High Templars obliterating mineral line, sneaky Dark Templars shutting down expos, Dark Archons and such, and at the same time be able to macro like mad and expo like a Zerg on crack. Gets quite micro intensive. And that shuttle with 2 High Templar that get intercepted without doing any damage cost a lot more than just the cost for the units lost, Same with Dark Templars/Reavers and whatnot.
Of course. Now I'm not a really good player and I know there is more to it than that. But I think Tossers needing to be inventive and fancy is quite true. At least on hight level.
I agree with this completely, unless your terran is completely nuts they just arent as effective. To play terran well enough you need godly control and macro along with a great sense of timing thats just hard to duplicate well enough on a non korean level.
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On November 17 2006 06:41 Orome wrote:
I'm pretty sure most of you didn't understand what he was trying to say. -_-
I agree with your theory, and it is part of the reason why there's never been a dominating Protoss player. The current osl and msl also seem to support your claim, as there were 3t 1p in osl, and 3z 1p in msl (ie maps sucked for Zerg in osl, were great for Terran and mediocre for p, and maps were great for Zergs in msl, sucked for Terran and were mediocre for p again, Anytime even said the maps were bad for Zerg in osl, and that he was happy he had to face so many Zergs). Island maps are the obvious exception, but they've never been too popular, and we haven't seen a pure island map for some time.
At the time i was writing this theory i didn even know that bolded stuff, and it feels even better now.
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EPT
