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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On November 17 2006 06:31 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Fuck all those who say "historically P has just as many starleague wins". Here's some RECENT things to chew on:
* One protoss in the Top 10 Kespa
* Two in the top 18 (compared to 9 zergs and 7 Terran)
* No protoss has EVER won an MSL
* In the past 7 OSL's starting from Gillette April 2004, Reach has one 2nd place and third place; PuSan has one 4th and one 3rd place; and Anytime has one victory. That translates to 5/28 of the last top 4 spots that Protoss has earned. Compare this to the 13/28 for Terran and 10/28 for Zerg.
* In the last 8 MSL's starting from September 2003, rA has finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 3rd; Kingdom has finished 3rd; and Reach 2nd. That means 6 top 4 finishes out of 32 places (keep in mind this only has iloveoov's dominance in it; not NaDa's) have gone to Protoss. If we take out Nal_rA, then toss has finished in the top 4 exactly TWICE since September 2003 in MSL's.
* And as a side note, Legend of the Fall huh? It doesn't even always work: iloveoov over BoxeR, Reach, YellOw (Ever August - November 2004)
You can't tell me that there is something seriously wrong judging from these statistics. How many top protoss players can you name? Now how many top Zerg/Terran players can youname?
I don't think it's because all the good players happen to be Zerg or Terran; or that for some reason Koreans hate the Protoss race and disproportionately play Zerg or Terran. I think the numbers are all pretty even to start out with; but it's just harder to succeed as Protoss than as Zerg or Terran. When asked in interviews, they always take as given the insane difficulty of PvZ and how it is tilted against the Protoss; you never hear that about ZvT.
actually nal_ra has won an MSL.
and there are far more people playing terran than z/p because of boxer.
and zerg players whine a shitload at zvt aswell, yellow anyone?
the kespa rankings werent that tilted before, dunno why it is now but it happened when they changed the system for it, will probably turn back in a few months.
edit: and the only reason I can name more zergs than tosses is because I remember so well how anytime trashed them.
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On November 17 2006 04:16 MaTRiX[SiN] wrote:
oh and r-point is like the best protoss map there is, hardly a terran map.
I'm not going to comment upon anything but this, and my comment goes thusly: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
#nite2
Zerg open, Terran closed, Protoss semiclosed/island .. starting to sound like chess lol.. . & maps being the cause of race imbalance for Protoss - these are not new ideas.. but you have been goood at trying to explain it in a readable manner. There is also other more obvious factors that no one ever mentions: map size itself.
Human behavior emulation plays an important roll too, people, tend to copy present success, while innovation usually only comes slowly and in jumps. When the best player in the world, is a Terran users, and dominates for a long time, others will follow his example, to the degree that those filling his shoes today, are also Terran. I would venture to bet that there is a larger pool of Terran top amateur players than Protoss, thus your pool of talent is already skewed against Protoss.
It is also interesting a good number, albeit very small to be meaningful, of the foreigners that have managed to survive or that have tried in Korea have been Protoss players..
Anyway, nice post!
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On November 17 2006 07:38 Physician wrote:
I would venture to bet that there is a larger pool of Terran top amateur players than Protoss, thus your pool of talent is already skewed against Protoss.
Actually i'm not sure now. But there's indeed a lot of T koreans players. But amateur ? Dunno, would be nice to get some infos. I'd not be surprised if it was toss or zerg. Dunno why.
It is also interesting that most of the foreigners that have managed to survive or that have tried in Korea have been all toss players..
Except elky ;p
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
#Raiz ya and Assem, Pj, everlast I edited my "most"
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At least most people aren't actually denying the imbalance anymore. It's kind of hard to when even good non-P's like July and Boxer mention it. I still think the best way to fix balance problems without actually changing the game would be to have separate maps for each matchup. That would make it harder to keep adding new maps all the time, but I'd be willing to give up some degree of novelty for better balance.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
On November 17 2006 08:14 gravity wrote: I still think the best way to fix balance problems without actually changing the game would be to have separate maps for each matchup. That would make it harder to keep adding new maps all the time, but I'd be willing to give up some degree of novelty for better balance.
I thought the same and had a few arguments - private discussions with 2 decent map makers. One need not lose novelty. All you need is more maps. 3 groups of maps pools, instead of the usual one; ZvP, TvZ, TvP and you make a good number for each. In a Z versus P player, they can only play from maps in the ZvP group. If one goes random, one can't pick map group.
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That is actually very good suggestion. Just imagining pvz being played on the most balanced maps  That would be so cool if ong or msl would make this rule standard. It would bring gaming on a new level. Most likely it will never happen, but one can hope right?
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i think it's kind of more fun when there's a random variety of maps that are good for some races and bad for others, and watching people try to overcome. i think it might be cool to mix in some more island and semi-island maps to help even things out a little.
when someone says it's obvious that pvz is imba because the pros always talk about it, it really reminds me of gg.net.
i dunno something about having maps per matchup seems thin and uninteresting. it's just too acceptant of the idea of one race simply not being able to beat another race on whatever map. it takes all the innovation and potential upset out of the game when people dont' have to fight uphill battles sometimes.
i have some deep-seated emotional rejection to trying to put all these controls on the game. i may be biased. but someone help me out.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On November 17 2006 09:05 zobz wrote:
i dunno something about having maps per matchup seems thin and uninteresting. it's just too acceptant of the idea of one race simply not being able to beat another race on whatever map. it takes all the innovation and potential upset out of the game when people dont' have to fight uphill battles sometimes.
Try PvZing on Mercury sometime; or TvP on Guillotine; or hell, ZvP on any island map. See if you still come back saying that.
Map imbalance is a serious problem and it needs to be addressed. It's an inelegant solution, but it's the only way to be fair. Burying our heads in the sand and pretending we don't need to fix it won't solve anything.
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On November 17 2006 07:52 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2006 07:38 Physician wrote:
I would venture to bet that there is a larger pool of Terran top amateur players than Protoss, thus your pool of talent is already skewed against Protoss.
Actually i'm not sure now. But there's indeed a lot of T koreans players. But amateur ? Dunno, would be nice to get some infos. I'd not be surprised if it was toss or zerg. Dunno why. Show nested quote +It is also interesting that most of the foreigners that have managed to survive or that have tried in Korea have been all toss players..
Except elky ;p
Was Slayer pro for a while? I thought he was won of the top players at the time so maybe he would have a chance o_o?
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it's not like every game would be on a map in your opponent's favour though. you'd just have to try and learn a more effective way to play the harder maps instead of blaming them entirely and just avoiding playing them. maybe it would be too hard though. it just seems so wussy the other way though.
"pretending we don't need to fix it won't solve anything" is kind of a strange statement. for one thing it's only a matter of pretending if you are undeniably unarguably surely right. in a debate, nobody can be absolutely assumed to be that. and assuming it is possible that we dont' need to fix it, it is whether or not anything is to be solved that is in question.
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Braavos36375 Posts
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You guys seem to forget that progaming =/= foreign gaming. It's not like somebody is inactive etc - these guys play for the WHOLE DAY, only stopping for eating or sleeping, and there's absolutely NO WAY that zerg and terran players are all more talented than protosses. Do you get it? I understand that in one or two tourneys protosses may screw things up - but STATISTICS don't lie. It's hardly imaginable to have WORSE statistics - maybe only if rA finally exits top10...but then you'll probably find another excuse, huh? Even some zerg pros say that zvp is easy - but no - YOU know better. FINE.
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There is a lot to type about in this thread, but I'm just going to respond to two things in the first post.
In my opinion the whole 'imbalance' thing is a thing of maps and the impossibility to make maps perfectly balanced for both TvP and PvZ. Your analysis of imbalance coming from maps has been stated many times before. While i think there is something to the idea, I would like to tell you to be careful when trying to simply things. Imbalance does not occur just because of maps, but though the interaction though maps+races. This is why you can see two distict ways to attempt to deal with imballance, modify the races, or modify the map. A mix woudld likely be best.
In ideal situation, where map would be perfectly balanced, T should win 33%, Z should win 33%, P should win 33% of all games. Or to put this in other words, Kespa points would be divided 33%, 33%, 33%. I find this to be a superficial view of balance because your not talking into account the players or how well they play at all. Those factors should be accounted for, but of course that is ridiculously difficult to do well.
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United States20661 Posts
There are less protosses to start off with. YellOw and Reach said in an interview that few people pick Protoss in Korea, since in their opinion it's hardest race to learn. Zerg is the traditional Korean race, and Terran was popularized because of Him.
So, just because there are less to begin with means that there will be less left in the end, in general.
One thing I find interesting is that Protoss players as a whole seem more consistent. Reach was in top ten for nearly forever, while everyone else was going up and down. They seem to slump less in comparison with other races, since, while maps may be imbalanced, they rarely screw Protoss as badly as other races [Mercury exception]
Reach's recent slump is... a bit strange. And very sad T-T
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Fact is when you talk about imbalance you talk for a precise moment in the time, in a precise context of gaming. Most people seem to completely forget this point. The "imbalance" (or whatever you call it) has only to be considered given the actual game's knowledge we have, which is likely to evolve A LOT these next years. Remember for example the views people had of TvZ just few time ago...
I think PvZ is changing these days, and we can see it on RECENT figures in that particular matchup. You will say "maps favor blablabla" as always but thats not and never will be the only factor ! Stop presenting it as a fate.
I think that protoss players are FAR from being perfect at this right moment. Master a perfect PvZ requires indeed a lot! of skills, but when mastered there is NO imbalance. As somebody already mentionned it, it is harder to be consistant because its harder to master well.
Let some time for people to adapt, and please dont cry for ANY major balance who could ruin the game. And i do think special maps for certain matchups would kinda ruin a part of the fun. Look at tennis and type of courts for example, players just have to compensate ; there's no major issue here, sry.
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On November 17 2006 04:44 nite2 wrote:
lol im not whining about protoss, coz im not even a protoss player, im just tryin to give a possible explanation to the imbalance.
I also dont give much importance to things that happened like 2 yrs ago (or more) when tosses actually won something. Game has evolved in that time, im writing this now, and its about current situation...
Yet ANOTHER clueless person who whines about protoss. If you actually knew anything, protoss has won a lot of things. So1 Starleague was won by AnyTime. Blizzard WWI was won by Nal_rA.
There is no imbalance. Why hasn't terran won the MSL in the past 5 seasons? Why hasn't zerg won OSL in the past 4 seasons?
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On November 17 2006 03:57 nite2 wrote:
u _cant_ make a protoss map.
Wasn't it at the time Paradoxxx was used that there were 2 PvP finals?
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another thing to consider might be that where protoss stands in the kespa rankings or stuff like that might not necessarily be the best way to judge the race and rule out the factor of the players. first of all i don't think it's all That unlikely that toss players could have some kind of psychological handicap in general. i believe progamers say that if you start a game believing you're going to lose then you will. but fuck quoting progamers. all they have is a stronger basis than we have for forming theories.
anyway the point i was getting to was that a better way to judge the race aside from the players could be to just think about some particular games. every time a protoss seems to play a really good game against zerg not just attributed to the map, that's a likely example of the potential of pvz. the only doubt i have is, this does really happen doesn't it? not just because toss got lucky or zerg wasn't so great or the map?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img421.imageshack.us/img421/4984/balanceat5.jpg)
