EPTthey have the me against the world, hero thing going on
My understanding of Protoss (im)balance - Page 3
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36390 Posts
they have the me against the world, hero thing going on | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
On a slightly random note, anyways, remember PJ? Everyone was like omfg, pj pvz's sucks, no way he can get better also cuz of pvz imba no way... Check out the reps on the chinese tournament going on now...pj has improved significantly :D (just fucking awesome watch watch@) http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=76F9357219D68563 /sorry for going off-topic, but I think this guy deserves praise, now it looks like he's improving vastly  | ||
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nite2
182 Posts
On November 17 2006 11:33 Knickknack wrote: There is a lot to type about in this thread, but I'm just going to respond to two things in the first post. Your analysis of imbalance coming from maps has been stated many times before. While i think there is something to the idea, I would like to tell you to be careful when trying to simply things. Imbalance does not occur just because of maps, but though the interaction though maps+races. This is why you can see two distict ways to attempt to deal with imballance, modify the races, or modify the map. A mix woudld likely be best. I find this to be a superficial view of balance because your not talking into account the players or how well they play at all. Those factors should be accounted for, but of course that is ridiculously difficult to do well. yea i said, in ideal situation, which would mean players of same skill and everything. Like u said, is practically impossible to take everything into consideration. Also, if u ask me, i think Ra is one of the greatest players in the history of BW, and yet, he never totally dominated the scene, afaik. Boxer, nada, oov, july, savior... they all had their time of invincibility. i want to say some stuff, but im tired now, and kinda dont have the strenght to form all these sentences well... ^^ | ||
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Myxomatosis
United States2392 Posts
On November 17 2006 13:06 QuietIdiot wrote: Hey, did u see cnstorm vs foru wcg 2005 at Estrella? T_T fOru's PvZ is probably the worst possible example anyone could give ^^. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
On November 17 2006 07:38 Physician wrote: #There is also other more obvious factors that no one ever mentions: map size itself. Ahem... <----- Mentioned short rush distances helping toss. | ||
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
On November 17 2006 15:38 Myxomatosis wrote: fOru's PvZ is probably the worst possible example anyone could give ^^. True, I just expected more from a progamer and a guy with a 4-0 record vs julyzerg. He lacks mechanics in pvz, big, big issue. Bah, I was gonna say "fuck you" for some reason, but that's completely irrelevant and irrational. (I just get a strong feeling you take me for a dumbass human being -_-) I just find it strange, that foru wins both games on azalea and paranoid androide, and loses the one on estrella...wtf? | ||
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stickman
136 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On November 17 2006 12:01 WhatisProtoss wrote: Yet ANOTHER clueless person who whines about protoss. If you actually knew anything, protoss has won a lot of things. So1 Starleague was won by AnyTime. Blizzard WWI was won by Nal_rA. There is no imbalance. Why hasn't terran won the MSL in the past 5 seasons? Why hasn't zerg won OSL in the past 4 seasons? Reposting (THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE LAST NIGHT'S OSL RESULTS CAUSE OF SPOILERS) * One protoss in the Top 10 Kespa * Two in the top 18 (compared to 9 zergs and 7 Terran) * No protoss has EVER won an MSL * In the past 7 OSL's starting from Gillette April 2004, Reach has one 2nd place and third place; PuSan has one 4th and one 3rd place; and Anytime has one victory. That translates to 5/28 of the last top 4 spots that Protoss has earned. Compare this to the 13/28 for Terran and 10/28 for Zerg. * In the last 8 MSL's starting from September 2003, rA has finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 3rd; Kingdom has finished 3rd; and Reach 2nd. That means 6 top 4 finishes out of 32 places (keep in mind this only has iloveoov's dominance in it; not NaDa's) have gone to Protoss. If we take out Nal_rA, then toss has finished in the top 4 exactly TWICE since September 2003 in MSL's. * And as a side note, Legend of the Fall huh? It doesn't even always work: iloveoov over BoxeR, Reach, YellOw (Ever August - November 2004). Sounds like a weensy bit of imba to me. | ||
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TheGreatOne
United States534 Posts
On November 18 2006 16:03 GrandInquisitor wrote: Reposting (THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE LAST NIGHT'S OSL RESULTS CAUSE OF SPOILERS) * One protoss in the Top 10 Kespa * Two in the top 18 (compared to 9 zergs and 7 Terran) * No protoss has EVER won an MSL * In the past 7 OSL's starting from Gillette April 2004, Reach has one 2nd place and third place; PuSan has one 4th and one 3rd place; and Anytime has one victory. That translates to 5/28 of the last top 4 spots that Protoss has earned. Compare this to the 13/28 for Terran and 10/28 for Zerg. * In the last 8 MSL's starting from September 2003, rA has finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 3rd; Kingdom has finished 3rd; and Reach 2nd. That means 6 top 4 finishes out of 32 places (keep in mind this only has iloveoov's dominance in it; not NaDa's) have gone to Protoss. If we take out Nal_rA, then toss has finished in the top 4 exactly TWICE since September 2003 in MSL's. * And as a side note, Legend of the Fall huh? It doesn't even always work: iloveoov over BoxeR, Reach, YellOw (Ever August - November 2004). Sounds like a weensy bit of imba to me. You sound like Tfeign Nal_ra has won a msl | ||
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YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
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Pika Chu
Romania2510 Posts
On November 17 2006 10:11 Hot_Bid wrote: ![[image loading]](http://img421.imageshack.us/img421/4984/balanceat5.jpg) i think it's the second time i see it, but i can't stop laughing anyway :D | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
"Me vs the world" sort of heroism. So that's cool ^_^ Go protoss!!! Man cmon Draco, show them what ur capable of!!! P.S. I don't think protoss had any genius yet... not even rA understands protoss fully... We need some new breed protoss, I'm thinking... Nowadays it's hard to balance a map for all 3. Look at it this way PvZ u want close rush distance PvT u want long ones u can't have all ~_~ | ||
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SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
On November 18 2006 16:03 GrandInquisitor wrote: Reposting (THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE LAST NIGHT'S OSL RESULTS CAUSE OF SPOILERS) * One protoss in the Top 10 Kespa * Two in the top 18 (compared to 9 zergs and 7 Terran) * No protoss has EVER won an MSL * In the past 7 OSL's starting from Gillette April 2004, Reach has one 2nd place and third place; PuSan has one 4th and one 3rd place; and Anytime has one victory. That translates to 5/28 of the last top 4 spots that Protoss has earned. Compare this to the 13/28 for Terran and 10/28 for Zerg. * In the last 8 MSL's starting from September 2003, rA has finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 3rd; Kingdom has finished 3rd; and Reach 2nd. That means 6 top 4 finishes out of 32 places (keep in mind this only has iloveoov's dominance in it; not NaDa's) have gone to Protoss. If we take out Nal_rA, then toss has finished in the top 4 exactly TWICE since September 2003 in MSL's. * And as a side note, Legend of the Fall huh? It doesn't even always work: iloveoov over BoxeR, Reach, YellOw (Ever August - November 2004). Sounds like a weensy bit of imba to me. * One protoss in the Top 10 Kespa * Two in the top 18 (compared to 9 zergs and 7 Terran) lol top 18? ignoring number 19 and 20 because theyre protoss players and they would weaken your argument? * No protoss has EVER won an MSL kang min 3-0 nada * your final appearance statistics P Starleague titles: Grrr 1 Garimto 2 Reach 1 Nal_rA 2 (OSL, MSL) Kingdom 1 Anytime 1 total: 8 Terran: Nada3 Boxer2 Iloveoov2 Sync 1 Xellos 1 Casy 1 total:10 Zerg: Savior 3 (MSL) July 1 chojja 1 total: 5 zerg is weakest race we need to beef them up On November 17 2006 03:57 nite2 wrote: u _cant_ make a protoss map. anyone remember kangminotine? ra went as far as 10-0 on guillotine lets not forget paradoxxx 2. i'm willing to bet that there are still a handful of z/t players getting counseling for what protoss did to them on it | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13324 Posts
It's just that terran are generally pretty good on most maps to pvt in normally quite close. | ||
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LastWish
2015 Posts
On November 19 2006 03:02 SoMuchBetter wrote: * One protoss in the Top 10 Kespa * Two in the top 18 (compared to 9 zergs and 7 Terran) lol top 18? ignoring number 19 and 20 because theyre protoss players and they would weaken your argument? * No protoss has EVER won an MSL kang min 3-0 nada * your final appearance statistics P Starleague titles: Grrr 1 Garimto 2 Reach 1 Nal_rA 2 (OSL, MSL) Kingdom 1 Anytime 1 total: 8 Terran: Nada3 Boxer2 Iloveoov2 Sync 1 Xellos 1 Casy 1 total:10 Zerg: Savior 3 (MSL) July 1 chojja 1 total: 5 zerg is weakest race we need to beef them up Well counting Garimto in isn't too apropriate, back then noone played the way they do now. Zeal+Temp PvT wtf is that? Still I want to see someone beating Savior PvZ, even in TvZ it will be hard and I think not even Nada will manage right now. | ||
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nite2
182 Posts
On November 18 2006 20:35 evanthebouncy~ wrote: Yeah I do agree protoss has that "Me vs the world" sort of heroism. So that's cool ^_^ Go protoss!!! Man cmon Draco, show them what ur capable of!!! P.S. I don't think protoss had any genius yet... not even rA understands protoss fully... We need some new breed protoss, I'm thinking... Nowadays it's hard to balance a map for all 3. Look at it this way PvZ u want close rush distance PvT u want long ones u can't have all ~_~ exactly my point, u cant have all, at least not in a map thats played for all MUs... | ||
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Evilmonkey.
United States1628 Posts
I don't think protoss had any genius yet... not even rA understands protoss fully... We need some new breed protoss, I'm thinking... If rA doesn't know protoss, no one does. I was really surprised that the zerg hasn't actually one that many starleagues... I geuss it's because I haven't been watching progaming long enough. Ever since I've been keeping up with it, there has always been zergs owning it up. | ||
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Fuu
198 Posts
On November 19 2006 04:01 LastWish wrote: Well counting Garimto in isn't too apropriate, back then noone played the way they do now. Zeal+Temp PvT wtf is that? Seriously what the fuck is this reply ? Fact that nobody plays it like that now is totally irrelevant here... If we want to study & discuss about imbalance, of course we have to do it on the long run. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On November 19 2006 05:23 Fuu wrote: Seriously what the fuck is this reply ? Fact that nobody plays it like that now is totally irrelevant here... If we want to study & discuss about imbalance, of course we have to do it on the long run. hahahahahahahhahahahahahhhhahha Methinks it's a bit unfair to include the yonder days of lore when we had PvP finals simply because we had HORRIBLY imbalanced maps in favor of Toss. This applies to you too, SoMuchBetter. It's simply unfair to look at overall history and say that since P has won a lot of Starleagues, that the game is balanced. It's like saying the 49ers are still a strong team in the NFL because Joe Montana/Steve Young won them a lot of games. Yeah, but that's OVER now, and now they SUCK. Hence why there have been 5 Protoss appearances in the OSL Final 4 since April 2004 (out of 28), and 6 in the MSL Final 4 since September 2003 (and if it weren't for Nal_rA, that translates to TWO, out of 32) | ||
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