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We all heard different explanations of P being the shittiest race to play on pro level... i'll give u my thoughts that hit me just moments ago while i was watching nadal vs davidenko (my mind works in mysterious ways i guess, lol)
In my opinion the whole 'imbalance' thing is a thing of maps and the impossibility to make maps perfectly balanced for both TvP and PvZ.
Basically i think of protoss as a race between the 2 extremes that are Terran and Zerg.
imo Terran likes maps with narrow passages, lots of cliffs:
vs Zerg it makes Z masses go thru filters and negate the effect of mass.
vs P, lots of cliffs and obstacles (like in R-Point) make tanks extremely powerful.
Also, imo, Zerg likes open maps so the masses can overwhelm anything.
So those are extremes, coz no matter the MU, Terr needs 'narrow' maps, Z wants wide maps.
On the other hand, Protoss in a different kind of situation:
vs T, they want more open space so they dont have to deal with tanks behind all kinds of obstacles.
vs Z however, their psi-intensive units cant handle Zerg's psi-light units on large open areas.
So here's the problem: u can make a Terran favouring map, u can make a Zerg favouring map, but u _cant_ make a protoss map.
In ideal situation, where map would be perfectly balanced, T should win 33%, Z should win 33%, P should win 33% of all games. Or to put this in other words, Kespa points would be divided 33%, 33%, 33%.
But when an unbalanced map gets into map pool, we get the current situation.
Lets say its a terr map; T will win more % vs both P and Z, while P will have slightly better % vs Z. in a perfect math world T will beat P in finals.
Now lets see a Zerg map;
Zerg owns both terr and Protoss, while protoss has higher % vs terran.
There are many factors that are very importat, draw for example. If toss gets lucky to meet many Terrs on Zerg maps, he can get far.
Also, if toss meets zergs on T maps, same story.
And while this may look like protoss is in the golden middle, its actually fucked up, coz im pretty sure everyone would rather win 1 OSL, and then not qualify for the next 2, rather than qualify for all 3 and do - nothing.
All in all, when u sum everything up, take the ideal 33% of P's points, take imbalanced maps into consideration, take lucky/unlucky draws, weaker/stronger players... U will still get protoss' % being lower than those of Terran and Zerg.
(BTW according to my theory, Nada > Anytime ^,^)
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When's the last island map anyone has seen?
The best maps recently are Arkanoid (Very macro intensive) New Peaks (guut) and that's about it.
The rest are still very macro intensive and the short rush distance in a map seems... non existant nowadays. CP was the last close map in forever.
And Let's stop whining about Protoss.. Toss players just suck. You guys are noobs. Stop bitching. God
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
"everyone would rather win 1 OSL, and then not qualify for the next 2, rather than qualify for all 3 and do - nothing." that kinda goes against the rest of your post since protoss has more starleague wins than zerg? zergs are actually then ones qualifying in mass then failing to win anything (savior and july are the only zerg starleague winners iirc?).
oh and r-point is like the best protoss map there is, hardly a terran map.
edit: gorush won an msl aswell (you are the golf king)
and the total ogn/mbc starleague wins excluding special events go like this: protoss-9 terran-16 zerg-5
there've been 3 special events (progamer open,king of kings & winners championship) all won by zergs.
so what we get from this is that p/z are historically equal when including special events and terran has more wins, mostly because they dominated the mbcgame starleagues due to bad maps(have both oov & nada winning 3 each...).
imbalance wru?!
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I think it depend a lot on the fact that Protoss demand a lot of fancy stuff to be really effective. Like reaverdrop havoc, High Templars obliterating mineral line, sneaky Dark Templars shutting down expos, Dark Archons and such, and at the same time be able to macro like mad and expo like a Zerg on crack. Gets quite micro intensive. And that shuttle with 2 High Templar that get intercepted without doing any damage cost a lot more than just the cost for the units lost, Same with Dark Templars/Reavers and whatnot.
Of course. Now I'm not a really good player and I know there is more to it than that. But I think Tossers needing to be inventive and fancy is quite true. At least on hight level.
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lol im not whining about protoss, coz im not even a protoss player, im just tryin to give a possible explanation to the imbalance.
I also dont give much importance to things that happened like 2 yrs ago (or more) when tosses actually won something. Game has evolved in that time, im writing this now, and its about current situation...
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its also important to note that the terran domination has mostly been the work of 4/5 players, the rest of the terrans not doing nearly as good at all, so the "imbalance" might be more of a talent influence from boxer/nada and into the new generation of terrans (oov, midas and so on), since if you take only the nonkorean community into account, the best players are mostly protoss and zerg and there are only a few good terrans
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On November 17 2006 04:44 nite2 wrote:
lol im not whining about protoss, coz im not even a protoss player, im just tryin to give a possible explanation to the imbalance.
I also dont give much importance to things that happened like 2 yrs ago (or more) when tosses actually won something. Game has evolved in that time, im writing this now, and its about current situation... well if we're talking about right now then you're going to have another protoss starleague win tomorrow so where's the imbalance?
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anytime better win so that these P imbal threads would have something to talk about...
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
lets not go here... again...
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Protoss aren't imbalanced.
Dont forget Plains 2 Hills, Guillotine and NFZ. =O
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On November 17 2006 05:05 MaTRiX[SiN] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2006 04:44 nite2 wrote:
lol im not whining about protoss, coz im not even a protoss player, im just tryin to give a possible explanation to the imbalance.
I also dont give much importance to things that happened like 2 yrs ago (or more) when tosses actually won something. Game has evolved in that time, im writing this now, and its about current situation... well if we're talking about right now then you're going to have another protoss starleague win tomorrow so where's the imbalance?
Even if anytime wins, it wont prove anything. I said toss players have lower win % than Z and T, i didnt say they cant win at all...
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Don't bring this kinda shit again.
There have been countless "TOSS IMBA OMFG" threads before and in the end, everytime it came to the conclusion of toss players who create these kinda crap just suck and everything in the BW world is balanced. It just all depends on the player.
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k i guess ur right.
even tho im terran, and i used to hate toss, now i really want them to start pwning, and i think i'll be rooting for anytime tomorow. I want anytime +1 other toss in top10.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Fuck all those who say "historically P has just as many starleague wins". Here's some RECENT things to chew on:
* One protoss in the Top 10 Kespa
* Two in the top 18 (compared to 9 zergs and 7 Terran)
* No protoss has EVER won an MSL
* In the past 7 OSL's starting from Gillette April 2004, Reach has one 2nd place and third place; PuSan has one 4th and one 3rd place; and Anytime has one victory. That translates to 5/28 of the last top 4 spots that Protoss has earned. Compare this to the 13/28 for Terran and 10/28 for Zerg.
* In the last 8 MSL's starting from September 2003, rA has finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 3rd; Kingdom has finished 3rd; and Reach 2nd. That means 6 top 4 finishes out of 32 places (keep in mind this only has iloveoov's dominance in it; not NaDa's) have gone to Protoss. If we take out Nal_rA, then toss has finished in the top 4 exactly TWICE since September 2003 in MSL's.
* And as a side note, Legend of the Fall huh? It doesn't even always work: iloveoov over BoxeR, Reach, YellOw (Ever August - November 2004)
You can't tell me that there is something seriously wrong judging from these statistics. How many top protoss players can you name? Now how many top Zerg/Terran players can youname?
I don't think it's because all the good players happen to be Zerg or Terran; or that for some reason Koreans hate the Protoss race and disproportionately play Zerg or Terran. I think the numbers are all pretty even to start out with; but it's just harder to succeed as Protoss than as Zerg or Terran. When asked in interviews, they always take as given the insane difficulty of PvZ and how it is tilted against the Protoss; you never hear that about ZvT.
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If you look on the November KESPA Ranking you see the top 10 is terran dominatet (6 terran 3zerg and only 1!protoss) the ranks from 11-20 are dominatet by zergs (6zergs 3Protoss 1Terran)
and the ranks from 21-30 are a protoss dominatet region (6 Protoss 2 Zergs 2 Terrans)
All in all we have 10 Protoss 11Zerg and 9terran players.
One the one hand this could show the good balance of the the three races because you have an equal number of Z,T,P users in top 30 but on the other hand it is and it was for months that there are not many Protoss Users in the top 10. (the highest number I remember was 3 but 2 only at the end of top 10).
Maybe the races are balanced even at progamer level but to be even the best of the programers seems to be more difficult for P users than for other users. Especially it is difficult for P Users to have a konstant skill.
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I guess peaks is the most balanced map presented (at least it seams that way so far).
Saying that protoss has many ways to abuse zerg is right = dt,ht,reaver ... but remeber what zerg does sunks his expansion and secures the above one with too.
That's why I think peaks are balanced because except your nat the expands don't cover another ones.
And if you try to drop - well shuttles take most time to build, are really expensive, lowest on Hp and slower than dropships.
So you must upgrade speed(because every good zerg will have scrouges round tha map)... but still you will probably lose it the time you deploy your troops because dt/ht nor reaver does shoot up and storming scrouges is not very satisfactory.
There are still unused units to tweak DA, Scout.
I remember someone saying maelstrom should affect buildings and yes it would be interesting to see if it would help vs mass sunkening.
Maybe making scouts normal air damage ? Yes you could probably secure your shuttles with 2 scouts(or maybe not) but they are still really expensive take too long to build and need cruicial speed upgrade(for which you need beacon and another 200/200 = 500/400).
If there is someone I would ask about PvZ imbalance and suggestions is Savior who is the true ZvP God and does probably understand the matchup most(or Ra from the protoss side).
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I'm pretty sure most of you didn't understand what he was trying to say. -_-
I agree with your theory, and it is part of the reason why there's never been a dominating Protoss player. The current osl and msl also seem to support your claim, as there were 3t 1p in osl, and 3z 1p in msl (ie maps sucked for Zerg in osl, were great for Terran and mediocre for p, and maps were great for Zergs in msl, sucked for Terran and were mediocre for p again, Anytime even said the maps were bad for Zerg in osl, and that he was happy he had to face so many Zergs). Island maps are the obvious exception, but they've never been too popular, and we haven't seen a pure island map for some time.
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On November 17 2006 04:29 psychosis wrote:
I think it depend a lot on the fact that Protoss demand a lot of fancy stuff to be really effective. Like reaverdrop havoc, High Templars obliterating mineral line, sneaky Dark Templars shutting down expos, Dark Archons and such, and at the same time be able to macro like mad and expo like a Zerg on crack. Gets quite micro intensive. And that shuttle with 2 High Templar that get intercepted without doing any damage cost a lot more than just the cost for the units lost, Same with Dark Templars/Reavers and whatnot.
Of course. Now I'm not a really good player and I know there is more to it than that. But I think Tossers needing to be inventive and fancy is quite true. At least on hight level.
I agree with this completely, unless your terran is completely nuts they just arent as effective. To play terran well enough you need godly control and macro along with a great sense of timing thats just hard to duplicate well enough on a non korean level.
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On November 17 2006 06:41 Orome wrote:
I'm pretty sure most of you didn't understand what he was trying to say. -_-
I agree with your theory, and it is part of the reason why there's never been a dominating Protoss player. The current osl and msl also seem to support your claim, as there were 3t 1p in osl, and 3z 1p in msl (ie maps sucked for Zerg in osl, were great for Terran and mediocre for p, and maps were great for Zergs in msl, sucked for Terran and were mediocre for p again, Anytime even said the maps were bad for Zerg in osl, and that he was happy he had to face so many Zergs). Island maps are the obvious exception, but they've never been too popular, and we haven't seen a pure island map for some time.
At the time i was writing this theory i didn even know that bolded stuff, and it feels even better now.
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On November 17 2006 06:31 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Fuck all those who say "historically P has just as many starleague wins". Here's some RECENT things to chew on:
* One protoss in the Top 10 Kespa
* Two in the top 18 (compared to 9 zergs and 7 Terran)
* No protoss has EVER won an MSL
* In the past 7 OSL's starting from Gillette April 2004, Reach has one 2nd place and third place; PuSan has one 4th and one 3rd place; and Anytime has one victory. That translates to 5/28 of the last top 4 spots that Protoss has earned. Compare this to the 13/28 for Terran and 10/28 for Zerg.
* In the last 8 MSL's starting from September 2003, rA has finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 3rd; Kingdom has finished 3rd; and Reach 2nd. That means 6 top 4 finishes out of 32 places (keep in mind this only has iloveoov's dominance in it; not NaDa's) have gone to Protoss. If we take out Nal_rA, then toss has finished in the top 4 exactly TWICE since September 2003 in MSL's.
* And as a side note, Legend of the Fall huh? It doesn't even always work: iloveoov over BoxeR, Reach, YellOw (Ever August - November 2004)
You can't tell me that there is something seriously wrong judging from these statistics. How many top protoss players can you name? Now how many top Zerg/Terran players can youname?
I don't think it's because all the good players happen to be Zerg or Terran; or that for some reason Koreans hate the Protoss race and disproportionately play Zerg or Terran. I think the numbers are all pretty even to start out with; but it's just harder to succeed as Protoss than as Zerg or Terran. When asked in interviews, they always take as given the insane difficulty of PvZ and how it is tilted against the Protoss; you never hear that about ZvT.
actually nal_ra has won an MSL.
and there are far more people playing terran than z/p because of boxer.
and zerg players whine a shitload at zvt aswell, yellow anyone?
the kespa rankings werent that tilted before, dunno why it is now but it happened when they changed the system for it, will probably turn back in a few months.
edit: and the only reason I can name more zergs than tosses is because I remember so well how anytime trashed them.
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On November 17 2006 04:16 MaTRiX[SiN] wrote:
oh and r-point is like the best protoss map there is, hardly a terran map.
I'm not going to comment upon anything but this, and my comment goes thusly: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
#nite2
Zerg open, Terran closed, Protoss semiclosed/island .. starting to sound like chess lol.. . & maps being the cause of race imbalance for Protoss - these are not new ideas.. but you have been goood at trying to explain it in a readable manner. There is also other more obvious factors that no one ever mentions: map size itself.
Human behavior emulation plays an important roll too, people, tend to copy present success, while innovation usually only comes slowly and in jumps. When the best player in the world, is a Terran users, and dominates for a long time, others will follow his example, to the degree that those filling his shoes today, are also Terran. I would venture to bet that there is a larger pool of Terran top amateur players than Protoss, thus your pool of talent is already skewed against Protoss.
It is also interesting a good number, albeit very small to be meaningful, of the foreigners that have managed to survive or that have tried in Korea have been Protoss players..
Anyway, nice post!
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On November 17 2006 07:38 Physician wrote:
I would venture to bet that there is a larger pool of Terran top amateur players than Protoss, thus your pool of talent is already skewed against Protoss.
Actually i'm not sure now. But there's indeed a lot of T koreans players. But amateur ? Dunno, would be nice to get some infos. I'd not be surprised if it was toss or zerg. Dunno why.
It is also interesting that most of the foreigners that have managed to survive or that have tried in Korea have been all toss players..
Except elky ;p
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
#Raiz ya and Assem, Pj, everlast I edited my "most"
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At least most people aren't actually denying the imbalance anymore. It's kind of hard to when even good non-P's like July and Boxer mention it. I still think the best way to fix balance problems without actually changing the game would be to have separate maps for each matchup. That would make it harder to keep adding new maps all the time, but I'd be willing to give up some degree of novelty for better balance.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
On November 17 2006 08:14 gravity wrote: I still think the best way to fix balance problems without actually changing the game would be to have separate maps for each matchup. That would make it harder to keep adding new maps all the time, but I'd be willing to give up some degree of novelty for better balance.
I thought the same and had a few arguments - private discussions with 2 decent map makers. One need not lose novelty. All you need is more maps. 3 groups of maps pools, instead of the usual one; ZvP, TvZ, TvP and you make a good number for each. In a Z versus P player, they can only play from maps in the ZvP group. If one goes random, one can't pick map group.
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That is actually very good suggestion. Just imagining pvz being played on the most balanced maps  That would be so cool if ong or msl would make this rule standard. It would bring gaming on a new level. Most likely it will never happen, but one can hope right?
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i think it's kind of more fun when there's a random variety of maps that are good for some races and bad for others, and watching people try to overcome. i think it might be cool to mix in some more island and semi-island maps to help even things out a little.
when someone says it's obvious that pvz is imba because the pros always talk about it, it really reminds me of gg.net.
i dunno something about having maps per matchup seems thin and uninteresting. it's just too acceptant of the idea of one race simply not being able to beat another race on whatever map. it takes all the innovation and potential upset out of the game when people dont' have to fight uphill battles sometimes.
i have some deep-seated emotional rejection to trying to put all these controls on the game. i may be biased. but someone help me out.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On November 17 2006 09:05 zobz wrote:
i dunno something about having maps per matchup seems thin and uninteresting. it's just too acceptant of the idea of one race simply not being able to beat another race on whatever map. it takes all the innovation and potential upset out of the game when people dont' have to fight uphill battles sometimes.
Try PvZing on Mercury sometime; or TvP on Guillotine; or hell, ZvP on any island map. See if you still come back saying that.
Map imbalance is a serious problem and it needs to be addressed. It's an inelegant solution, but it's the only way to be fair. Burying our heads in the sand and pretending we don't need to fix it won't solve anything.
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On November 17 2006 07:52 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2006 07:38 Physician wrote:
I would venture to bet that there is a larger pool of Terran top amateur players than Protoss, thus your pool of talent is already skewed against Protoss.
Actually i'm not sure now. But there's indeed a lot of T koreans players. But amateur ? Dunno, would be nice to get some infos. I'd not be surprised if it was toss or zerg. Dunno why. Show nested quote +It is also interesting that most of the foreigners that have managed to survive or that have tried in Korea have been all toss players..
Except elky ;p
Was Slayer pro for a while? I thought he was won of the top players at the time so maybe he would have a chance o_o?
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it's not like every game would be on a map in your opponent's favour though. you'd just have to try and learn a more effective way to play the harder maps instead of blaming them entirely and just avoiding playing them. maybe it would be too hard though. it just seems so wussy the other way though.
"pretending we don't need to fix it won't solve anything" is kind of a strange statement. for one thing it's only a matter of pretending if you are undeniably unarguably surely right. in a debate, nobody can be absolutely assumed to be that. and assuming it is possible that we dont' need to fix it, it is whether or not anything is to be solved that is in question.
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Braavos36375 Posts
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You guys seem to forget that progaming =/= foreign gaming. It's not like somebody is inactive etc - these guys play for the WHOLE DAY, only stopping for eating or sleeping, and there's absolutely NO WAY that zerg and terran players are all more talented than protosses. Do you get it? I understand that in one or two tourneys protosses may screw things up - but STATISTICS don't lie. It's hardly imaginable to have WORSE statistics - maybe only if rA finally exits top10...but then you'll probably find another excuse, huh? Even some zerg pros say that zvp is easy - but no - YOU know better. FINE.
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There is a lot to type about in this thread, but I'm just going to respond to two things in the first post.
In my opinion the whole 'imbalance' thing is a thing of maps and the impossibility to make maps perfectly balanced for both TvP and PvZ. Your analysis of imbalance coming from maps has been stated many times before. While i think there is something to the idea, I would like to tell you to be careful when trying to simply things. Imbalance does not occur just because of maps, but though the interaction though maps+races. This is why you can see two distict ways to attempt to deal with imballance, modify the races, or modify the map. A mix woudld likely be best.
In ideal situation, where map would be perfectly balanced, T should win 33%, Z should win 33%, P should win 33% of all games. Or to put this in other words, Kespa points would be divided 33%, 33%, 33%. I find this to be a superficial view of balance because your not talking into account the players or how well they play at all. Those factors should be accounted for, but of course that is ridiculously difficult to do well.
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United States20661 Posts
There are less protosses to start off with. YellOw and Reach said in an interview that few people pick Protoss in Korea, since in their opinion it's hardest race to learn. Zerg is the traditional Korean race, and Terran was popularized because of Him.
So, just because there are less to begin with means that there will be less left in the end, in general.
One thing I find interesting is that Protoss players as a whole seem more consistent. Reach was in top ten for nearly forever, while everyone else was going up and down. They seem to slump less in comparison with other races, since, while maps may be imbalanced, they rarely screw Protoss as badly as other races [Mercury exception]
Reach's recent slump is... a bit strange. And very sad T-T
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Fact is when you talk about imbalance you talk for a precise moment in the time, in a precise context of gaming. Most people seem to completely forget this point. The "imbalance" (or whatever you call it) has only to be considered given the actual game's knowledge we have, which is likely to evolve A LOT these next years. Remember for example the views people had of TvZ just few time ago...
I think PvZ is changing these days, and we can see it on RECENT figures in that particular matchup. You will say "maps favor blablabla" as always but thats not and never will be the only factor ! Stop presenting it as a fate.
I think that protoss players are FAR from being perfect at this right moment. Master a perfect PvZ requires indeed a lot! of skills, but when mastered there is NO imbalance. As somebody already mentionned it, it is harder to be consistant because its harder to master well.
Let some time for people to adapt, and please dont cry for ANY major balance who could ruin the game. And i do think special maps for certain matchups would kinda ruin a part of the fun. Look at tennis and type of courts for example, players just have to compensate ; there's no major issue here, sry.
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On November 17 2006 04:44 nite2 wrote:
lol im not whining about protoss, coz im not even a protoss player, im just tryin to give a possible explanation to the imbalance.
I also dont give much importance to things that happened like 2 yrs ago (or more) when tosses actually won something. Game has evolved in that time, im writing this now, and its about current situation...
Yet ANOTHER clueless person who whines about protoss. If you actually knew anything, protoss has won a lot of things. So1 Starleague was won by AnyTime. Blizzard WWI was won by Nal_rA.
There is no imbalance. Why hasn't terran won the MSL in the past 5 seasons? Why hasn't zerg won OSL in the past 4 seasons?
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On November 17 2006 03:57 nite2 wrote:
u _cant_ make a protoss map.
Wasn't it at the time Paradoxxx was used that there were 2 PvP finals?
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another thing to consider might be that where protoss stands in the kespa rankings or stuff like that might not necessarily be the best way to judge the race and rule out the factor of the players. first of all i don't think it's all That unlikely that toss players could have some kind of psychological handicap in general. i believe progamers say that if you start a game believing you're going to lose then you will. but fuck quoting progamers. all they have is a stronger basis than we have for forming theories.
anyway the point i was getting to was that a better way to judge the race aside from the players could be to just think about some particular games. every time a protoss seems to play a really good game against zerg not just attributed to the map, that's a likely example of the potential of pvz. the only doubt i have is, this does really happen doesn't it? not just because toss got lucky or zerg wasn't so great or the map?
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Braavos36375 Posts
you have to admit though the protoss difficulty vs zerg does produce some really cool progamer personalities
they have the me against the world, hero thing going on
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More island maps would counter-act protoss vs zerg imbalance. Jesus himself cannot win zvp on island.
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Hey, did u see cnstorm vs foru wcg 2005 at Estrella? T_T
On a slightly random note, anyways, remember PJ? Everyone was like omfg, pj pvz's sucks, no way he can get better also cuz of pvz imba no way...
Check out the reps on the chinese tournament going on now...pj has improved significantly :D (just fucking awesome watch watch@)
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=76F9357219D68563
/sorry for going off-topic, but I think this guy deserves praise, now it looks like he's improving vastly 
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On November 17 2006 11:33 Knickknack wrote:There is a lot to type about in this thread, but I'm just going to respond to two things in the first post. Show nested quote +In my opinion the whole 'imbalance' thing is a thing of maps and the impossibility to make maps perfectly balanced for both TvP and PvZ. Your analysis of imbalance coming from maps has been stated many times before. While i think there is something to the idea, I would like to tell you to be careful when trying to simply things. Imbalance does not occur just because of maps, but though the interaction though maps+races. This is why you can see two distict ways to attempt to deal with imballance, modify the races, or modify the map. A mix woudld likely be best. Show nested quote +In ideal situation, where map would be perfectly balanced, T should win 33%, Z should win 33%, P should win 33% of all games. Or to put this in other words, Kespa points would be divided 33%, 33%, 33%. I find this to be a superficial view of balance because your not talking into account the players or how well they play at all. Those factors should be accounted for, but of course that is ridiculously difficult to do well.
yea i said, in ideal situation, which would mean players of same skill and everything. Like u said, is practically impossible to take everything into consideration.
Also, if u ask me, i think Ra is one of the greatest players in the history of BW, and yet, he never totally dominated the scene, afaik. Boxer, nada, oov, july, savior... they all had their time of invincibility.
i want to say some stuff, but im tired now, and kinda dont have the strenght to form all these sentences well... ^^
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On November 17 2006 13:06 QuietIdiot wrote:
Hey, did u see cnstorm vs foru wcg 2005 at Estrella? T_T
fOru's PvZ is probably the worst possible example anyone could give ^^.
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On November 17 2006 07:38 Physician wrote:
#There is also other more obvious factors that no one ever mentions: map size itself.
Ahem...
<----- Mentioned short rush distances helping toss.
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On November 17 2006 15:38 Myxomatosis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2006 13:06 QuietIdiot wrote:
Hey, did u see cnstorm vs foru wcg 2005 at Estrella? T_T fOru's PvZ is probably the worst possible example anyone could give ^^.
True, I just expected more from a progamer and a guy with a 4-0 record vs julyzerg. He lacks mechanics in pvz, big, big issue. Bah, I was gonna say "fuck you" for some reason, but that's completely irrelevant and irrational. (I just get a strong feeling you take me for a dumbass human being -_-) I just find it strange, that foru wins both games on azalea and paranoid androide, and loses the one on estrella...wtf?
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If I remember correctly, doesn't foru go reaver/sair PvZ on Estrella? I think if he had more time to prepare on the map, he would have found that reaver/sair is not the best PvZ approach to Estrella.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On November 17 2006 12:01 WhatisProtoss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2006 04:44 nite2 wrote:
lol im not whining about protoss, coz im not even a protoss player, im just tryin to give a possible explanation to the imbalance.
I also dont give much importance to things that happened like 2 yrs ago (or more) when tosses actually won something. Game has evolved in that time, im writing this now, and its about current situation... Yet ANOTHER clueless person who whines about protoss. If you actually knew anything, protoss has won a lot of things. So1 Starleague was won by AnyTime. Blizzard WWI was won by Nal_rA. There is no imbalance. Why hasn't terran won the MSL in the past 5 seasons? Why hasn't zerg won OSL in the past 4 seasons?
Reposting (THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE LAST NIGHT'S OSL RESULTS CAUSE OF SPOILERS)
* One protoss in the Top 10 Kespa
* Two in the top 18 (compared to 9 zergs and 7 Terran)
* No protoss has EVER won an MSL
* In the past 7 OSL's starting from Gillette April 2004, Reach has one 2nd place and third place; PuSan has one 4th and one 3rd place; and Anytime has one victory. That translates to 5/28 of the last top 4 spots that Protoss has earned. Compare this to the 13/28 for Terran and 10/28 for Zerg.
* In the last 8 MSL's starting from September 2003, rA has finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 3rd; Kingdom has finished 3rd; and Reach 2nd. That means 6 top 4 finishes out of 32 places (keep in mind this only has iloveoov's dominance in it; not NaDa's) have gone to Protoss. If we take out Nal_rA, then toss has finished in the top 4 exactly TWICE since September 2003 in MSL's.
* And as a side note, Legend of the Fall huh? It doesn't even always work: iloveoov over BoxeR, Reach, YellOw (Ever August - November 2004).
Sounds like a weensy bit of imba to me.
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On November 18 2006 16:03 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2006 12:01 WhatisProtoss wrote:On November 17 2006 04:44 nite2 wrote:
lol im not whining about protoss, coz im not even a protoss player, im just tryin to give a possible explanation to the imbalance.
I also dont give much importance to things that happened like 2 yrs ago (or more) when tosses actually won something. Game has evolved in that time, im writing this now, and its about current situation... Yet ANOTHER clueless person who whines about protoss. If you actually knew anything, protoss has won a lot of things. So1 Starleague was won by AnyTime. Blizzard WWI was won by Nal_rA. There is no imbalance. Why hasn't terran won the MSL in the past 5 seasons? Why hasn't zerg won OSL in the past 4 seasons? Reposting (THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE LAST NIGHT'S OSL RESULTS CAUSE OF SPOILERS) * One protoss in the Top 10 Kespa * Two in the top 18 (compared to 9 zergs and 7 Terran) * No protoss has EVER won an MSL * In the past 7 OSL's starting from Gillette April 2004, Reach has one 2nd place and third place; PuSan has one 4th and one 3rd place; and Anytime has one victory. That translates to 5/28 of the last top 4 spots that Protoss has earned. Compare this to the 13/28 for Terran and 10/28 for Zerg. * In the last 8 MSL's starting from September 2003, rA has finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 3rd; Kingdom has finished 3rd; and Reach 2nd. That means 6 top 4 finishes out of 32 places (keep in mind this only has iloveoov's dominance in it; not NaDa's) have gone to Protoss. If we take out Nal_rA, then toss has finished in the top 4 exactly TWICE since September 2003 in MSL's. * And as a side note, Legend of the Fall huh? It doesn't even always work: iloveoov over BoxeR, Reach, YellOw (Ever August - November 2004). Sounds like a weensy bit of imba to me.
You sound like Tfeign Nal_ra has won a msl
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kingdom has also won an OSL, much less 'qualify for a final or semi'. stop posting in brood war threads thegreatone.
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On November 17 2006 10:11 Hot_Bid wrote:![[image loading]](http://img421.imageshack.us/img421/4984/balanceat5.jpg)
i think it's the second time i see it, but i can't stop laughing anyway :D
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Yeah I do agree protoss has that
"Me vs the world" sort of heroism. So that's cool ^_^ Go protoss!!!
Man cmon Draco, show them what ur capable of!!!
P.S.
I don't think protoss had any genius yet... not even rA understands protoss fully... We need some new breed protoss, I'm thinking...
Nowadays it's hard to balance a map for all 3.
Look at it this way
PvZ u want close rush distance
PvT u want long ones
u can't have all ~_~
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On November 18 2006 16:03 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2006 12:01 WhatisProtoss wrote:On November 17 2006 04:44 nite2 wrote:
lol im not whining about protoss, coz im not even a protoss player, im just tryin to give a possible explanation to the imbalance.
I also dont give much importance to things that happened like 2 yrs ago (or more) when tosses actually won something. Game has evolved in that time, im writing this now, and its about current situation... Yet ANOTHER clueless person who whines about protoss. If you actually knew anything, protoss has won a lot of things. So1 Starleague was won by AnyTime. Blizzard WWI was won by Nal_rA. There is no imbalance. Why hasn't terran won the MSL in the past 5 seasons? Why hasn't zerg won OSL in the past 4 seasons? Reposting (THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE LAST NIGHT'S OSL RESULTS CAUSE OF SPOILERS) * One protoss in the Top 10 Kespa * Two in the top 18 (compared to 9 zergs and 7 Terran) * No protoss has EVER won an MSL * In the past 7 OSL's starting from Gillette April 2004, Reach has one 2nd place and third place; PuSan has one 4th and one 3rd place; and Anytime has one victory. That translates to 5/28 of the last top 4 spots that Protoss has earned. Compare this to the 13/28 for Terran and 10/28 for Zerg. * In the last 8 MSL's starting from September 2003, rA has finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 3rd; Kingdom has finished 3rd; and Reach 2nd. That means 6 top 4 finishes out of 32 places (keep in mind this only has iloveoov's dominance in it; not NaDa's) have gone to Protoss. If we take out Nal_rA, then toss has finished in the top 4 exactly TWICE since September 2003 in MSL's. * And as a side note, Legend of the Fall huh? It doesn't even always work: iloveoov over BoxeR, Reach, YellOw (Ever August - November 2004). Sounds like a weensy bit of imba to me.
* One protoss in the Top 10 Kespa
* Two in the top 18 (compared to 9 zergs and 7 Terran)
lol top 18? ignoring number 19 and 20 because theyre protoss players and they would weaken your argument?
* No protoss has EVER won an MSL
kang min 3-0 nada
* your final appearance statistics
P Starleague titles:
Grrr 1
Garimto 2
Reach 1
Nal_rA 2 (OSL, MSL)
Kingdom 1
Anytime 1
total: 8
Terran:
Nada3
Boxer2
Iloveoov2
Sync 1
Xellos 1
Casy 1
total:10
Zerg:
Savior 3 (MSL)
July 1
chojja 1
total: 5
zerg is weakest race we need to beef them up
On November 17 2006 03:57 nite2 wrote:
u _cant_ make a protoss map.
anyone remember kangminotine? ra went as far as 10-0 on guillotine
lets not forget paradoxxx 2. i'm willing to bet that there are still a handful of z/t players getting counseling for what protoss did to them on it
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There are heaps of maps protoss are really strong on.
It's just that terran are generally pretty good on most maps to pvt in normally quite close.
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On November 19 2006 03:02 SoMuchBetter wrote:
* One protoss in the Top 10 Kespa
* Two in the top 18 (compared to 9 zergs and 7 Terran)
lol top 18? ignoring number 19 and 20 because theyre protoss players and they would weaken your argument?
* No protoss has EVER won an MSL
kang min 3-0 nada
* your final appearance statistics
P Starleague titles:
Grrr 1
Garimto 2
Reach 1
Nal_rA 2 (OSL, MSL)
Kingdom 1
Anytime 1
total: 8
Terran:
Nada3
Boxer2
Iloveoov2
Sync 1
Xellos 1
Casy 1
total:10
Zerg:
Savior 3 (MSL)
July 1
chojja 1
total: 5
zerg is weakest race we need to beef them up
Well counting Garimto in isn't too apropriate, back then noone played the way they do now.
Zeal+Temp PvT wtf is that?
Still I want to see someone beating Savior PvZ, even in TvZ it will be hard and I think not even Nada will manage right now.
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On November 18 2006 20:35 evanthebouncy~ wrote:
Yeah I do agree protoss has that
"Me vs the world" sort of heroism. So that's cool ^_^ Go protoss!!!
Man cmon Draco, show them what ur capable of!!!
P.S.
I don't think protoss had any genius yet... not even rA understands protoss fully... We need some new breed protoss, I'm thinking...
Nowadays it's hard to balance a map for all 3.
Look at it this way
PvZ u want close rush distance
PvT u want long ones
u can't have all ~_~
exactly my point, u cant have all, at least not in a map thats played for all MUs...
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I don't think protoss had any genius yet... not even rA understands protoss fully... We need some new breed protoss, I'm thinking...
If rA doesn't know protoss, no one does.
I was really surprised that the zerg hasn't actually one that many starleagues... I geuss it's because I haven't been watching progaming long enough. Ever since I've been keeping up with it, there has always been zergs owning it up.
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On November 19 2006 04:01 LastWish wrote:
Well counting Garimto in isn't too apropriate, back then noone played the way they do now.
Zeal+Temp PvT wtf is that?
Seriously what the fuck is this reply ? Fact that nobody plays it like that now is totally irrelevant here... If we want to study & discuss about imbalance, of course we have to do it on the long run.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On November 19 2006 05:23 Fuu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2006 04:01 LastWish wrote:
Well counting Garimto in isn't too apropriate, back then noone played the way they do now.
Zeal+Temp PvT wtf is that?
Seriously what the fuck is this reply ? Fact that nobody plays it like that now is totally irrelevant here... If we want to study & discuss about imbalance, of course we have to do it on the long run.
hahahahahahahhahahahahahhhhahha
Methinks it's a bit unfair to include the yonder days of lore when we had PvP finals simply because we had HORRIBLY imbalanced maps in favor of Toss.
This applies to you too, SoMuchBetter. It's simply unfair to look at overall history and say that since P has won a lot of Starleagues, that the game is balanced. It's like saying the 49ers are still a strong team in the NFL because Joe Montana/Steve Young won them a lot of games. Yeah, but that's OVER now, and now they SUCK. Hence why there have been 5 Protoss appearances in the OSL Final 4 since April 2004 (out of 28), and 6 in the MSL Final 4 since September 2003 (and if it weren't for Nal_rA, that translates to TWO, out of 32)
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toss players are like omg wtf imbal! lolz! just because PvZ is a hard MU and they are too pampered by PvT
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Maps has a lot to say. But the current maps for the proleague isnt so bad really
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it all depends on if all the zergs get terran opponents then lose then terran gets to play a cheese toss or just a really good pvt player... also to list of total starleauge wins is stupid because ur including the ancient godly players like giyom, garimto etc...
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EPT
