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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
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Banner by ExistorCall to Action: August 19 Balance Testing
We’ve just published a new Balance Test Map to the StarCraft II Custom Games list entitled "Bel’Shir Vestige LE (2.0.10 Balance v1.1)." In our previous iteration of the test map, we took a look at balance changes for Armory upgrades, the Overseer, and the Viper in Heart of the Swarm. After reviewing your and pro player feedback, we decided to replace the Viper change with a buff to Ultralisk health. Our plan is to first consider the changes below, and potentially test additional changes after reviewing your feedback. Here’s the situation:
Terran- Armory
- Vehicle and Ship Weapon upgrades have been combined into just one upgrade.
+ Show Spoiler [Vehicle/Ship Change Reasoning] +“We don't think Terran is struggling, but do think mech in general has been weak throughout HotS. We tested this specific change a bit in the beta, and we have some idea of how much better mech will be, but a lot has changed since then, so we'd like to actually have players playtest it again.
Right now, it's looking like the only area where Terran might be weak is late game PvT, but it’s debateable. If so, this change would address that area, because upgrading Vikings that are really core in the matchup will also help with the Hellbat transition in the late game.”http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9628133352
Zerg- Overseer
- The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade now increases Overseer movement speed from 1.88 to 3.375 (previously 1.88 to 2.75.)
+ Show Spoiler [Overseer Change Reasoning] +“TvZ feels quite balanced until the very late game when there are so many skirmishes and so many Widow Mines. We want to keep the really exciting gameplay while finding ways to help out Zerg in those specific battles. Having to micromanage your army in every engagement, morph new Banelings, manage 4-5 (or more) bases, and morph new Overseers can be a bit too much. So we’re going to test giving Overseers a speed buff after the speed upgrade is purchased, so that we keep the early- and mid-game the same while specifically helping out the Zerg in the later stages. They still wouldn't move as fast as say, Mutalisks, but perhaps late game TvZ goes more evenly if Overseers don't lag behind and get killed in most late engagements.”http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9628133352
- Ultralisk
- Health increased from 500 to 550.
+ Show Spoiler [Ultralisk Change Reasoning] +“We’re already seeing the Viper energy increase from the last balance test map change timing attacks a lot more than we expected. We could revisit a lesser version of this change in the future, but for now we want to focus on helping out the Zerg in late game TvZ. We’ve said before that during late game TvZ, Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.”http://us.battle.net//sc2/en/blog/10681058
Once again, feedback based on play testing is the most helpful information you can share with us, and we kindly ask that you take your time to play plenty of games on the balance test map before offering your thoughts on the changes above.
As always, thank you for your continued feedback and support. We’d like to restate that we’re trying out the changes listed above to see how they affect current gameplay, and none of these changes are final. Once you feel you’ve had enough time to test thoroughly, we welcome you to join us in this discussion thread.
http://us.battle.net//sc2/en/blog/10681058
http://eu.battle.net//sc2/en/blog/10681058
Poll: Impressions of the Terran Vehicle/Ship Upgrade Change?Approve (965) 53% Disapprove (687) 38% Neutral-prove (176) 10% 1828 total votes Your vote: Impressions of the Terran Vehicle/Ship Upgrade Change? (Vote): Approve
(Vote): Disapprove
(Vote): Neutral-prove
Poll: Impressions of the Zerg Overseer Speed Upgrade Change?Approve (1226) 75% Disapprove (269) 16% Neutral-prove (137) 8% 1632 total votes Your vote: Impressions of the Zerg Overseer Speed Upgrade Change? (Vote): Approve
(Vote): Disapprove
(Vote): Neutral-prove
Poll: Impressions of the Zerg Ultralisk Health Change?Disapprove (1345) 60% Approve (728) 33% Neutral-prove (167) 7% 2240 total votes Your vote: Impressions of the Zerg Ultralisk Health Change? (Vote): Approve
(Vote): Disapprove
(Vote): Neutral-prove
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interesting. Good combination with Ultras tanking now more damage from widow mines and ultras being able to kill widow mines more easily.
Lets see how that will work.
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That's what, two additional shots from marauders?
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Problem is the transition not the late game itself. This change fixes little in majority of TvZ games as those tend to end at an extended midgame with muta/ling/bling vs 4m with Ultras nowhere in sight. Or it could end up with Zs going risky fast hive rushes into Pacman-like Ultras chewing up marines with their 10% hp increase.
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There is little change to TvZ. I don't think Blizzard understands why Zerg is not getting a faster hive and struggles in mid game getting the gas up running for hive, upgrades and ultras.
even ultras by themselves need infestors to work, late game ultra with infestors and vipers are amazing enough.
Instead of buffing ultras, buff hydras so Zerg can do some kind of ling baneling hydra composition in the mid game.
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Was the ultra really the problem in ZvT? I always thought HotS Ultras were terrifying (maybe not OP, but they destroy marines). I suppose it's only an extra three marauder shots, but it's still kind of a weird unit to buff. I guess it makes the transition more worthwhile?
I'll have to see it in action, I guess.
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While I agree Zergs need a slight lategame buff, I kinda feel any lategame transition already lends itself to Ultralisks. The bigger problems IMO, are the disappearance of BLs and ineffectiveness of SH to the MMMM builds.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 13:21 ETisME wrote:
There is little change to TvZ. I don't think Blizzard understands why Zerg is not getting a faster hive and struggles in mid game getting the gas up running for hive, upgrades and ultras.
even ultras by themselves need infestors to work, late game ultra with infestors and vipers are amazing enough.
Instead of buffing ultras, buff hydras so Zerg can do some kind of ling baneling hydra composition in the mid game.
Something in my brain tells me that hydra suck for a simple reason (and that is main one) of never ever-ever catching medivacs nowadays and they do not tank mine shots like roaches :S
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On August 20 2013 13:26 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 13:21 ETisME wrote:
There is little change to TvZ. I don't think Blizzard understands why Zerg is not getting a faster hive and struggles in mid game getting the gas up running for hive, upgrades and ultras.
even ultras by themselves need infestors to work, late game ultra with infestors and vipers are amazing enough.
Instead of buffing ultras, buff hydras so Zerg can do some kind of ling baneling hydra composition in the mid game. Something in my brain tells me that hydra suck for a simple reason (and that is main one) of never ever-ever catching medivacs nowadays and they do not tank mine shots like roaches :S
Yea, it's a pitty they nerfed hydra speed upgrade from +50% to +25% speed when they moved it from hive to lair after HOTS beta.
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I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
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1, Overseer helps transition
2, So you can transition to ultra easier than before
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I think that Viper on Infestation pit, instead of Hive, and pathogen glands affecting the energy of viper/infestor, could help zerg a bit in ZvT (to use Blinding Cloud and zone out bio), but maybe it'd break ZvP
And Ultralisks are already good enough, they don't need buffs
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i dont think zerg needs any buff
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IMO all changes are unnecessary besides maybe the overseer speed buff. Combining air and mech attack upgrades does nothing to make mech stronger since mech units build out of a factory. Additionally, now terran can freely switch into 3/3 air after playing mech and turtling. The ultralisk health buff also feels a bit useless as I feel the unit is completely fine as is.
Response to timoi210 -- Maybe every single Zerg player should stop trying to play mass ling muta vs terran, teching up to hive is actually quite easy when you don't spend 1600+ gas on mutas and who know how much on banelings throughout the game. Widow mines and marines crush mutas and lings and when almost every terran plays bio mine style ling bane muta seems stupid to me. I don't like to criticize such high level players like jaedong but I felt like polt showed in the WCS America Finals how bad muta/ling/bane is against good bio mine players, and it also showed how stupid top level zergs are to do the same exact thing every single game. There are plenty of other strategies zergs can use vs T.
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On August 20 2013 13:26 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 13:21 ETisME wrote:
There is little change to TvZ. I don't think Blizzard understands why Zerg is not getting a faster hive and struggles in mid game getting the gas up running for hive, upgrades and ultras.
even ultras by themselves need infestors to work, late game ultra with infestors and vipers are amazing enough.
Instead of buffing ultras, buff hydras so Zerg can do some kind of ling baneling hydra composition in the mid game. Something in my brain tells me that hydra suck for a simple reason (and that is main one) of never ever-ever catching medivacs nowadays and they do not tank mine shots like roaches :S
they aren't just for sniping medviacs, they provide some more dps onto the bio while they poke
They also can snipe off mines in early mine push as well, make it harder for terran to snowball that mine count.
The best part is that it has an awesome transition into ling baneling ultra infestor/viper
I watched dimaga playing this style in the beta (the lair speed upgrade) and it sometimes worked really well, and fail horribly as well.
this change feels to me that Blizzard is afraid of Terran too easily get into sky transition and so they want to buff ultras which can torn down terran before the skyball gets too high.
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what the FUCK? Ultralisk life buff? Jesus christ what hell are they thinking. Its fucking strong as fuck already
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I wish Blizzard looked at units that aren't working and buffed them, rather than tweaking the standard meta.
For me: Overseer buff is good, gives zerg more reliable scouting. Other two I'm neutral on. I think skymech will become awfully strong off that one buff, but maybe it needs to be seen more? Ultras being tankier works for me somewhat, but I haven't seen a lot of necessity to buff them since MMMM still does pretty good against Ultras.
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And more protoss tears were shed...
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Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.
What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one?
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Overseer speed, I agree with at least trying.
Upgrade change is not the right sort of change for mech in my opinion but I'm not too strongly against it.
Max energy Vipers were stupid, but some fix to the Vipers is the best choice for zerg buffing, I'd say, other than buffing corruptors' damage and maybe speed (IMO). I still say a small buff to Hydralisks and maybe to the baneling morph time are also ideal though.
Ultralisks WTF?!
Heck, you'd be better off toning down the Versus Armoured bonuses of something like Marauders or Immortals than directly buffing Ultras more.
Are ultras even bad right now? I think the only things making them bad (if they are) are awkward movement/bad AI and the limited number that can fight at once due to space limitations .
Edit: Agree with Hoon, it's pretty f#!%ed up "logic".
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EPT
