We’ve just published a new Balance Test Map to the StarCraft II Custom Games list entitled "Bel’Shir Vestige LE (2.0.10 Balance v1.1)." In our previous iteration of the test map, we took a look at balance changes for Armory upgrades, the Overseer, and the Viper in Heart of the Swarm. After reviewing your and pro player feedback, we decided to replace the Viper change with a buff to Ultralisk health. Our plan is to first consider the changes below, and potentially test additional changes after reviewing your feedback. Here’s the situation:
Terran
Armory
Vehicle and Ship Weapon upgrades have been combined into just one upgrade.
“We don't think Terran is struggling, but do think mech in general has been weak throughout HotS. We tested this specific change a bit in the beta, and we have some idea of how much better mech will be, but a lot has changed since then, so we'd like to actually have players playtest it again.
Right now, it's looking like the only area where Terran might be weak is late game PvT, but it’s debateable. If so, this change would address that area, because upgrading Vikings that are really core in the matchup will also help with the Hellbat transition in the late game.”
“TvZ feels quite balanced until the very late game when there are so many skirmishes and so many Widow Mines. We want to keep the really exciting gameplay while finding ways to help out Zerg in those specific battles. Having to micromanage your army in every engagement, morph new Banelings, manage 4-5 (or more) bases, and morph new Overseers can be a bit too much. So we’re going to test giving Overseers a speed buff after the speed upgrade is purchased, so that we keep the early- and mid-game the same while specifically helping out the Zerg in the later stages. They still wouldn't move as fast as say, Mutalisks, but perhaps late game TvZ goes more evenly if Overseers don't lag behind and get killed in most late engagements.”
“We’re already seeing the Viper energy increase from the last balance test map change timing attacks a lot more than we expected. We could revisit a lesser version of this change in the future, but for now we want to focus on helping out the Zerg in late game TvZ. We’ve said before that during late game TvZ, Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.”
Once again, feedback based on play testing is the most helpful information you can share with us, and we kindly ask that you take your time to play plenty of games on the balance test map before offering your thoughts on the changes above.
As always, thank you for your continued feedback and support. We’d like to restate that we’re trying out the changes listed above to see how they affect current gameplay, and none of these changes are final. Once you feel you’ve had enough time to test thoroughly, we welcome you to join us in this discussion thread.
Problem is the transition not the late game itself. This change fixes little in majority of TvZ games as those tend to end at an extended midgame with muta/ling/bling vs 4m with Ultras nowhere in sight. Or it could end up with Zs going risky fast hive rushes into Pacman-like Ultras chewing up marines with their 10% hp increase.
There is little change to TvZ. I don't think Blizzard understands why Zerg is not getting a faster hive and struggles in mid game getting the gas up running for hive, upgrades and ultras. even ultras by themselves need infestors to work, late game ultra with infestors and vipers are amazing enough. Instead of buffing ultras, buff hydras so Zerg can do some kind of ling baneling hydra composition in the mid game.
Was the ultra really the problem in ZvT? I always thought HotS Ultras were terrifying (maybe not OP, but they destroy marines). I suppose it's only an extra three marauder shots, but it's still kind of a weird unit to buff. I guess it makes the transition more worthwhile?
While I agree Zergs need a slight lategame buff, I kinda feel any lategame transition already lends itself to Ultralisks. The bigger problems IMO, are the disappearance of BLs and ineffectiveness of SH to the MMMM builds.
On August 20 2013 13:21 ETisME wrote: There is little change to TvZ. I don't think Blizzard understands why Zerg is not getting a faster hive and struggles in mid game getting the gas up running for hive, upgrades and ultras. even ultras by themselves need infestors to work, late game ultra with infestors and vipers are amazing enough. Instead of buffing ultras, buff hydras so Zerg can do some kind of ling baneling hydra composition in the mid game.
Something in my brain tells me that hydra suck for a simple reason (and that is main one) of never ever-ever catching medivacs nowadays and they do not tank mine shots like roaches :S
On August 20 2013 13:21 ETisME wrote: There is little change to TvZ. I don't think Blizzard understands why Zerg is not getting a faster hive and struggles in mid game getting the gas up running for hive, upgrades and ultras. even ultras by themselves need infestors to work, late game ultra with infestors and vipers are amazing enough. Instead of buffing ultras, buff hydras so Zerg can do some kind of ling baneling hydra composition in the mid game.
Something in my brain tells me that hydra suck for a simple reason (and that is main one) of never ever-ever catching medivacs nowadays and they do not tank mine shots like roaches :S
Yea, it's a pitty they nerfed hydra speed upgrade from +50% to +25% speed when they moved it from hive to lair after HOTS beta.
I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
I think that Viper on Infestation pit, instead of Hive, and pathogen glands affecting the energy of viper/infestor, could help zerg a bit in ZvT (to use Blinding Cloud and zone out bio), but maybe it'd break ZvP
And Ultralisks are already good enough, they don't need buffs
IMO all changes are unnecessary besides maybe the overseer speed buff. Combining air and mech attack upgrades does nothing to make mech stronger since mech units build out of a factory. Additionally, now terran can freely switch into 3/3 air after playing mech and turtling. The ultralisk health buff also feels a bit useless as I feel the unit is completely fine as is.
Response to timoi210 -- Maybe every single Zerg player should stop trying to play mass ling muta vs terran, teching up to hive is actually quite easy when you don't spend 1600+ gas on mutas and who know how much on banelings throughout the game. Widow mines and marines crush mutas and lings and when almost every terran plays bio mine style ling bane muta seems stupid to me. I don't like to criticize such high level players like jaedong but I felt like polt showed in the WCS America Finals how bad muta/ling/bane is against good bio mine players, and it also showed how stupid top level zergs are to do the same exact thing every single game. There are plenty of other strategies zergs can use vs T.
On August 20 2013 13:21 ETisME wrote: There is little change to TvZ. I don't think Blizzard understands why Zerg is not getting a faster hive and struggles in mid game getting the gas up running for hive, upgrades and ultras. even ultras by themselves need infestors to work, late game ultra with infestors and vipers are amazing enough. Instead of buffing ultras, buff hydras so Zerg can do some kind of ling baneling hydra composition in the mid game.
Something in my brain tells me that hydra suck for a simple reason (and that is main one) of never ever-ever catching medivacs nowadays and they do not tank mine shots like roaches :S
they aren't just for sniping medviacs, they provide some more dps onto the bio while they poke They also can snipe off mines in early mine push as well, make it harder for terran to snowball that mine count. The best part is that it has an awesome transition into ling baneling ultra infestor/viper I watched dimaga playing this style in the beta (the lair speed upgrade) and it sometimes worked really well, and fail horribly as well.
this change feels to me that Blizzard is afraid of Terran too easily get into sky transition and so they want to buff ultras which can torn down terran before the skyball gets too high.
I wish Blizzard looked at units that aren't working and buffed them, rather than tweaking the standard meta.
For me: Overseer buff is good, gives zerg more reliable scouting. Other two I'm neutral on. I think skymech will become awfully strong off that one buff, but maybe it needs to be seen more? Ultras being tankier works for me somewhat, but I haven't seen a lot of necessity to buff them since MMMM still does pretty good against Ultras.
Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.
What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one?
Overseer speed, I agree with at least trying. Upgrade change is not the right sort of change for mech in my opinion but I'm not too strongly against it. Max energy Vipers were stupid, but some fix to the Vipers is the best choice for zerg buffing, I'd say, other than buffing corruptors' damage and maybe speed (IMO). I still say a small buff to Hydralisks and maybe to the baneling morph time are also ideal though.
Ultralisks WTF?! Heck, you'd be better off toning down the Versus Armoured bonuses of something like Marauders or Immortals than directly buffing Ultras more. Are ultras even bad right now? I think the only things making them bad (if they are) are awkward movement/bad AI and the limited number that can fight at once due to space limitations .
Edit: Agree with Hoon, it's pretty f#!%ed up "logic".
On August 20 2013 13:36 Ouija wrote: IMO all changes are unnecessary besides maybe the overseer speed buff. Combining air and mech attack upgrades does nothing to make mech stronger since mech units build out of a factory. Additionally, now terran can freely switch into 3/3 air after playing mech and turtling. The ultralisk health buff also feels a bit useless as I feel the unit is completely fine as is.
Response to timoi210 -- Maybe every single Zerg player should stop trying to play mass ling muta vs terran, teching up to hive is actually quite easy when you don't spend 1600+ gas on mutas and who know how much on banelings throughout the game. Widow mines and marines crush mutas and lings and when almost every terran plays bio mine style ling bane muta seems stupid to me. I don't like to criticize such high level players like jaedong but I felt like polt showed in the WCS America Finals how bad muta/ling/bane is against good bio mine players, and it also showed how stupid top level zergs are to do the same exact thing every single game. There are plenty of other strategies zergs can use vs T.
People have talked to death about not using muta/ling/bling styles and trying out others like roach/hydra, ling/roach/bling, or even ling/bling/corruptor but in the end, there's a reason muta/ling/bling is still being played by the top level pros and that's because that's the unit composition that gives them the most success and comfort in the game. As a T player, it's not my position to tell Zs how to play their race just like its not theirs to impose their ideas on T or P.
But even through my (relatively) biased eyes, I can see that though the game is fairly even on equal upgrades, the game drastically changes when Ts get out 3/3 upgrades. I love terran and their playstyle as much as I hate zerg and everything it stands for, but I'd also want people to appreciate just how good the top level Terrans are how good their control and decision making is compared to other merely good Terrans but we can't see that if a third of the SC2 population is calling out the "imbaness" of 4m.
I just want all races to equally see and root for members of the other race (except for zerg for me, no offense :D) without crying for balance and discussions ending into a flame war.
On August 20 2013 13:36 Ouija wrote: IMO all changes are unnecessary besides maybe the overseer speed buff. Combining air and mech attack upgrades does nothing to make mech stronger since mech units build out of a factory. Additionally, now terran can freely switch into 3/3 air after playing mech and turtling. The ultralisk health buff also feels a bit useless as I feel the unit is completely fine as is.
Response to timoi210 -- Maybe every single Zerg player should stop trying to play mass ling muta vs terran, teching up to hive is actually quite easy when you don't spend 1600+ gas on mutas and who know how much on banelings throughout the game. Widow mines and marines crush mutas and lings and when almost every terran plays bio mine style ling bane muta seems stupid to me. I don't like to criticize such high level players like jaedong but I felt like polt showed in the WCS America Finals how bad muta/ling/bane is against good bio mine players, and it also showed how stupid top level zergs are to do the same exact thing every single game. There are plenty of other strategies zergs can use vs T.
Example? Roach Hydra? Dies. Roach bane? Med-v count starts slowly rise and then terran units stop to die. Like in mutalingbane, but faster. Point is: you need to deal with marines and only ling-bane is really good for that (well, fungal i heard is good too, but nowadays i heard it does not do nearly as much on it's own and rightfully so. And you need to deal with med-v: for that you have to have mutas now. Or pump over9000 gas in infestors and try to land right fungals. But yeah, ultralisk buff does not seem any good. Merge of mech and air attack upgrades may lead us to ForGG vs LiquidHerO games but with 3-3 hellbats AND vikings, so i am more or less fine with that change.
Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.
What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one?
I guess they mean that zerg has to keep up with terran in late game (Yep, with all 100500-pronged attacks, once ultras are out). Hence they are buffing unit that is easier to manage and is not early-midgame one.
On August 20 2013 13:46 lorestarcraft wrote: And more protoss tears were shed...
Yeah, 2 more shots from immortal in trade of minute earlier hydra-roach-viper timing. Worth of crying, oh yea /s
Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.
What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one?
They said previously that the lategame aspects of ZvT were overly taxing on the Zerg in terms of injects, creep, widow mine dodging/sniping, and defending drops. So I guess the idea is to give a passive buff to a unit that only really attacks and doesn't have much of any micro requirements.
Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.
What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one?
They are saying mines rape lings/blings/mutas if you dont pay attention, so they are giving ultras a boost to make them better to use against bio since they kinda just run over mines.
I'd really like them to experiment with moving Vipers to Lair tech and making abduct a Hive upgrade. Maybe even find a middle ground by requiring spire tech or even morphing from mutas/corruptors so it's tier 2.5 instead.
The major concerning aspect of that, however, is if it'd be too strong in ZvP. Muta switches are already deadly there and if you catch the toss without any templars or phoenix numbers well...blinding cloud is going to shit all over blink stalkers and photon cannons...
The ultralisk change is going to affect sub-KR-GM levels very disproportionately, I feel. Of course, Blizzard should only balance for top-tier play - but if this goes through, we'll probably see a return to WoL-era race distribution in the foreigner scene.
That's the tricky thing about terran - it's much more difficult to master than toss and zerg, but it's also arguably the most effective at the highest levels.
On August 20 2013 13:53 lichter wrote: I'd prefer they reduce ultralisk size and allow them to step on zerglings (and only zerglings)
Step on or over? If you mean over (and maybe even if you mean on), why not workers, marines, zealots and maybe banelings too? Smallest sized unit models makes sense. They could make it that they step over any ALLIED (very) small units.
On August 20 2013 14:02 sevia wrote: The ultralisk change is going to affect sub-KR-GM levels very disproportionately, I feel. Of course, Blizzard should only balance for top-tier play - but if this goes through, we'll probably see a return to WoL-era race distribution in the foreigner scene.
That's the tricky thing about terran - it's much more difficult to master than toss and zerg, but it's also arguably the most effective at the highest levels.
Well, i know i will have to use THAT word, but i will say it anyway: it is how race is DESIGNED. In BW it all worked because units were all retarded and managing their mental problems alone was a problem,
On August 20 2013 14:07 larse wrote: Maybe I am the few people who are positive about the change.
First, Mech buff + no viper buff may really lead to a more possible mech TvZ, though it won't be the popular build.
Second, **not only is ZvT's transition a problem but the late-game is also a problem.** If you guys ever remember the reason why Soulkey likes to go for mid-game all-in even to today, it is that he doesn't want to play the scary late-game.
Third, the transition to ultra can get some small helps from the overseer buff.
First buff will only really affect TvP imo. mech TvZ is screwed by existence of viper, not it's energy. Viper buff would only screw up hydra-roach-viper timings (aka shift around minute earlier than now). Second... well, we all saw how Soulkey dies once he ACTUALLY gets to ultras. Third... overseer buff will only help with muta-ling-bane help, since now overseer won't die on retreat, once speed is done. It would still act as speed bump, but not as hard as it was before.
Maybe I am the few people who are positive about the change.
First, Mech buff + no viper buff may really lead to a more possible mech TvZ, though it won't be the popular build.
Second, **not only is ZvT's transition a problem but the late-game is also a problem.** If you guys ever remember the reason why Soulkey likes to go for mid-game all-in even to today, it is that he doesn't want to play the scary late-game.
Third, the transition to ultra can get some small helps from the overseer buff.
Hm they are buffing zerg's best unit atm! I approve! But no seriously.. maybe buff mid game units and not our hive please we have like the best t3 now imo. Fix corruptors and swarm host would be nice though ^_^
At least a little bit of sanity is left in their brains, Viper buff was just pure madness.. This sounds way more reasonable, although I'd prefer something like Blinding Cloud affecting mines then Ultra buff that is already pretty strong. But yeah, mech/skymech might be possible to pull off now.
On August 20 2013 14:02 sevia wrote: The ultralisk change is going to affect sub-KR-GM levels very disproportionately, I feel. Of course, Blizzard should only balance for top-tier play - but if this goes through, we'll probably see a return to WoL-era race distribution in the foreigner scene.
That's the tricky thing about terran - it's much more difficult to master than toss and zerg, but it's also arguably the most effective at the highest levels.
Well, i know i will have to use THAT word, but i will say it anyway: it is how race is DESIGNED. In BW it all worked because units were all retarded and managing their mental problems alone was a problem,
On August 20 2013 14:07 larse wrote: Maybe I am the few people who are positive about the change.
First, Mech buff + no viper buff may really lead to a more possible mech TvZ, though it won't be the popular build.
Second, **not only is ZvT's transition a problem but the late-game is also a problem.** If you guys ever remember the reason why Soulkey likes to go for mid-game all-in even to today, it is that he doesn't want to play the scary late-game.
Third, the transition to ultra can get some small helps from the overseer buff.
First buff will only really affect TvP imo. mech TvZ is screwed by existence of viper, not it's energy. Viper buff would only screw up hydra-roach-viper timings (aka shift around minute earlier than now). Second... well, we all saw how Soulkey dies once he ACTUALLY gets to ultras. Third... overseer buff will only help with muta-ling-bane help, since now overseer won't die on retreat, once speed is done. It would still act as speed bump, but not as hard as it was before.
Soulkey never actually gets to ultras in a comfortable position or sacrifices most his banes right before his ultras pop and then spends minutes defending with his ultras who get heavily damaged with no queen energy to spare nor time to heal and proceeds to get destroyed by innovation's main army.
I'm not gonna balance whine, but seriously when are they fix the units that ISNT used instead of "fixing" standard meta units. Carrier, Battlecruiser, Brood Lord are Tier 3 units and yet they suck, it's still more effective to keep putting out Gateway or Barracks units, that is silly. There is no difference in 15min vs a 30min game atm since we are stuck with the same units through the whole game.
What's the point of having 35 units or whatever we have with all 3 races combined when atleast 5-7 are never used cause they suck. BW had the scout which was a joke, SC2 has the entire "lategame" unit category as a joke.
On August 20 2013 14:02 sevia wrote: The ultralisk change is going to affect sub-KR-GM levels very disproportionately, I feel. Of course, Blizzard should only balance for top-tier play - but if this goes through, we'll probably see a return to WoL-era race distribution in the foreigner scene.
That's the tricky thing about terran - it's much more difficult to master than toss and zerg, but it's also arguably the most effective at the highest levels.
Well, i know i will have to use THAT word, but i will say it anyway: it is how race is DESIGNED. In BW it all worked because units were all retarded and managing their mental problems alone was a problem,
On August 20 2013 14:07 larse wrote: Maybe I am the few people who are positive about the change.
First, Mech buff + no viper buff may really lead to a more possible mech TvZ, though it won't be the popular build.
Second, **not only is ZvT's transition a problem but the late-game is also a problem.** If you guys ever remember the reason why Soulkey likes to go for mid-game all-in even to today, it is that he doesn't want to play the scary late-game.
Third, the transition to ultra can get some small helps from the overseer buff.
First buff will only really affect TvP imo. mech TvZ is screwed by existence of viper, not it's energy. Viper buff would only screw up hydra-roach-viper timings (aka shift around minute earlier than now). Second... well, we all saw how Soulkey dies once he ACTUALLY gets to ultras. Third... overseer buff will only help with muta-ling-bane help, since now overseer won't die on retreat, once speed is done. It would still act as speed bump, but not as hard as it was before.
Soulkey never actually gets to ultras in a comfortable position or sacrifices most his banes right before his ultras pop and then spends minutes defending with his ultras who get heavily damaged with no queen energy to spare nor time to heal and proceeds to get destroyed by innovation's main army.
That's exactly what i mean. To be fair, it feels like Soulkey just refuses to die, while losing for 5 and more minutes straight. GG timing of sorts.
On August 20 2013 14:30 Thinasy wrote: I'm not gonna balance whine, but seriously when are they fix the units that ISNT used instead of "fixing" standard meta units. Carrier, Battlecruiser, Brood Lord are Tier 3 units and yet they suck, it's still more effective to keep putting out Gateway or Barracks units, that is silly. There is no difference in 15min vs a 30min game atm since we are stuck with the same units through the whole game.
What's the point of having 35 units or whatever we have with all 3 races combined when atleast 5-7 are never used cause they suck. BW had the scout which was a joke, SC2 has the entire "lategame" unit category as a joke.
Carriers are only there to look pretty and remind people that making them is a good skill toi have, battlecruisers are already good but take insanely long to get, broods are still good as well and will never see a buff cause of how stupidly biased people would be against it after the whole end of wol infestor broodlord extravaganza.
On August 20 2013 14:30 Thinasy wrote: I'm not gonna balance whine, but seriously when are they fix the units that ISNT used instead of "fixing" standard meta units. Carrier, Battlecruiser, Brood Lord are Tier 3 units and yet they suck, it's still more effective to keep putting out Gateway or Barracks units, that is silly. There is no difference in 15min vs a 30min game atm since we are stuck with the same units through the whole game.
What's the point of having 35 units or whatever we have with all 3 races combined when atleast 5-7 are never used cause they suck. BW had the scout which was a joke, SC2 has the entire "lategame" unit category as a joke.
I don't remember BCs used all that much outside of TvT in BW either. In TvP it looked like tank-goliaths-vulture-vessel-wraith all game long, maybe with occasional ghosts for lockdowns. In TvZ... well, either mech either bio with transition into mech. Also, Blizzard some time ago made it clear that most of late game units (especially carriers and Mommaship) are here for the sake of it, not for a real purpose.
Yeah, that's the wrong change to make if they want to help zergs in lategame zvt.
What's interesting to me is that HOTS didn't give Terran anything specifically to fight against the BL+Infestor deathpush, like the Tempest does. I see two reasons why HOTS-era zergs don't do that anymore:
1. Fungal is harder to use.
and (by far the bigger one)
2. Terran midgame has become dramatically scarier, between speedvacs and widow mines, thus making it extremely hard or (in some cases) impossible for Zerg to comfortably get that momentum going. Zergs end up clinging desperately to Ling/Bane/Muta as the most efficient defense against the mindless berserker aggression that Terrans can pump out, and that becomes the focus of the entire game. In WoL, zergs could scrape by with a weaker but less gas-intensive defense, allowing them to tech to the late game and secure a win there.
If Blizz wants to help Zerg in late game, then they need to adjust the mid-game. However, in doing so they risk a return to the snorefest ZvTs of late WoL, where Terrans just can't put enough of a dent in the Zerg's momentum, until Zerg gets the unstoppable Brood Lord-based monstrosity going, which would be even stronger with Vipers.
The challenge they have, then, is to buff Zerg/nerf Terran midgame, while simultaneously nerfing Zerg/buffing Terran lategame, without having any impact on other matchups, so that the power balance remains *roughly* equivalent throughout the game. Power imbalances at different stages of the game are certainly interesting, but not to the extent of HOTS-era Terran midgame, or WOL-era Zerg lategame.
After testing shows that viper timings were too strong when sped-up, people suggest moving viper down to lair tech. Please at least think about what you write before posting your gut reaction.
Infestation unlocking +3/+3 upgrade seems like it may accomplish the zerg buff better than the Ultra hp.
I feel like all the matchups would benefit from a nerf to T bio late game in exchange for stronger mech or air. As a result, Carrier and Broodlord could be adjusted depending on things turn out. This would not only shake up the meta, but increase the number of transitions that happen in a game.
On August 20 2013 14:38 Hollis wrote: Yeah, that's the wrong change to make if they want to help zergs in lategame zvt.
What's interesting to me is that HOTS didn't give Terran anything specifically to fight against the BL+Infestor deathpush, like the Tempest does. I see two reasons why HOTS-era zergs don't do that anymore:
1. Fungal is harder to use.
and (by far the bigger one)
2. Terran midgame has become dramatically scarier, between speedvacs and widow mines, thus making it extremely hard or (in some cases) impossible for Zerg to comfortably get that momentum going. Zergs end up clinging desperately to Ling/Bane/Muta as the most efficient defense against the mindless berserker aggression that Terrans can pump out, and that becomes the focus of the entire game. In WoL, zergs could scrape by with a weaker but less gas-intensive defense, allowing them to tech to the late game and secure a win there.
If Blizz wants to help Zerg in late game, then they need to adjust the mid-game. However, in doing so they risk a return to the snorefest ZvTs of late WoL, where Terrans just can't put enough of a dent in the Zerg's momentum, until Zerg gets the unstoppable Brood Lord-based monstrosity going, which would be even stronger with Vipers.
The challenge they have, then, is to buff Zerg/nerf Terran midgame, while simultaneously nerfing Zerg/buffing Terran lategame, without having any impact on other matchups, so that the power balance remains *roughly* equivalent throughout the game. Power imbalances at different stages of the game are certainly interesting, but not to the extent of HOTS-era Terran midgame, or WOL-era Zerg lategame.
Nerfed fungal, even more mineral heavy mid game army for terran and buff to raven (and ofc catch-me-if-you-can-medivac) do the trick against infestor BL, but it is still really good deathball, except that zergs don't get to live to it as easily as they did in WoL.
On August 20 2013 14:39 Darkstar_X wrote:
I feel like all the matchups would benefit from a nerf to T bio late game in exchange for stronger mech or air. As a result, Carrier and Broodlord could be adjusted depending on things turn out. This would not only shake up the meta, but increase the number of transitions that happen in a game.
I find it really REALLY INTERESTING that Blzzard are thinking that Ultras need a health buff. Because we have seen how Ultras wreck when the Zerg actually brings out transfuses..
On August 20 2013 14:39 Darkstar_X wrote: Infestation unlocking +3/+3 upgrade seems like it may accomplish the zerg buff better than the Ultra hp.
I like this, because it makes it more parallel to the armory and the twilight council. Hive is still the gateway to hive tech, but maybe +3 along the same path would just smooth over the tvz timings that are really sharp right now.
Get a chance to kill the bio before they kite back into 15 widow mines and kill your Ultras anyway.
Or maybe +1-2 cast range on Fungal, espcially with it being a projectile instead of storm like. Gives you more of a chance to lead your target. Hard enough to get fungals close enough at a time when you want to land them.
On August 20 2013 15:27 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: I thought they wanted the viper being more used in ZvT, and now they're about to give a passive buff to the ultra. I'm lost.
They figured out that viper is only good about stuff nobody plays because viper is good, while hydra-roach-viper timings in PvZ may become even deadlier. Like with tempests and brood lords in PvZ :D
On August 20 2013 15:24 Sufinsil wrote: Who here would rather get Ultralisk charge back?
Get a chance to kill the bio before they kite back into 15 widow mines and kill your Ultras anyway.
Or maybe +1-2 cast range on Fungal, espcially with it being a projectile instead of storm like. Gives you more of a chance to lead your target. Hard enough to get fungals close enough at a time when you want to land them.
Fungals are already have got their range buffed from 9 to 10 AFAIK (together with projectile change).
the buff to warp prism for example had a clear goal and design vision behind it which is exactly what is lacking with these "lazy" changes
also they should adress early game instead imo, zerg got absolutely nothing that changes how the early game is played, no new options, no new aggressive options and absolutely no fun options
On August 20 2013 14:39 Darkstar_X wrote: Infestation unlocking +3/+3 upgrade seems like it may accomplish the zerg buff better than the Ultra hp.
I like this, because it makes it more parallel to the armory and the twilight council. Hive is still the gateway to hive tech, but maybe +3 along the same path would just smooth over the tvz timings that are really sharp right now.
Interesting, but isn't the Infestation Pit a must-have for Zergs anyway? They are bound to get Infestors eventually, so the Pit can be seen as "no extra cost" whereas the Terran Armory is not used at all in Biomine.
Personally, I feel that the main problem with Hive is not its cost, or its Infestation Pit requirement. The main problem is that Hive just takes too long to upgrade! What that means is if you want continuous upgrades, you have to start your Infestation Pit/Hive earlier, which is more draining on resources than if they were started later. However, if you start them too late, Terran's 3/3 will have a great timing window to just kill you.
Then again, Hive tech is incredibly strong and letting it come out too quickly would be dangerous... still, even if Zerg gets Hive out quickly, there is still time required to build Ultralisk Dens and Greater Spires and Adrenal Glands, so I think it might be acceptable to reduce Hive upgrade time?
The Overseer speed buff is reasonable,whilst the other 2 buffs i would say no.But me personally its Zergs mid tier units v Terran are the problem. Mutas are currently the only mid game unit that's effective and cost efficient
Why cant they tweak the swarmhost in some way or the hydra, both these units barely get used unless its verses Protoss
This whole game is turning into a race of who can get to 3/3 upgrades the fastest btw, its a ridiculous way to play and i would rather see the upgrade speeds nerfed for all 3 races rather than buffed yet again
On August 20 2013 14:39 Darkstar_X wrote: Infestation unlocking +3/+3 upgrade seems like it may accomplish the zerg buff better than the Ultra hp.
I like this, because it makes it more parallel to the armory and the twilight council. Hive is still the gateway to hive tech, but maybe +3 along the same path would just smooth over the tvz timings that are really sharp right now.
Interesting, but isn't the Infestation Pit a must-have for Zergs anyway? They are bound to get Infestors eventually, so the Pit can be seen as "no extra cost" whereas the Terran Armory is not used at all in Biomine.
Personally, I feel that the main problem with Hive is not its cost, or its Infestation Pit requirement. The main problem is that Hive just takes too long to upgrade! What that means is if you want continuous upgrades, you have to start your Infestation Pit/Hive earlier, which is more draining on resources than if they were started later. However, if you start them too late, Terran's 3/3 will have a great timing window to just kill you.
Then again, Hive tech is incredibly strong and letting it come out too quickly would be dangerous... still, even if Zerg gets Hive out quickly, there is still time required to build Ultralisk Dens and Greater Spires and Adrenal Glands, so I think it might be acceptable to reduce Hive upgrade time?
Pit is extra cost when you are playing muta ling bane, but then again, infestors are a transition. The same way terran may end up transitioning into ravens when playing bio mine. Also, imo allowing hive tech to appear quicker is not the way. I liked the idea of unlocking 3-3 pre-hive though. Really liked D:
i know that you guys all really like the approach of buffing instead of nerfing, but this is getting out of hand nerfing the widow mine very slightly is the better option than going for this crazy ultralisk buff
ultras are already strong enough in zvp, look at scarlett vs super
Very confused as to how they ever could think buffing ultralisk health is good. It's the most arbitrary change out of any of them lately. Just no to that change. Zerg is already good, it's just the 1% top Korean Terrans happen to be the best.
As for mech armory change, surprisingly i'm going to say it's also a bad change, because it doesn't change anything at all with mech vs Protoss. The issue with mech vs Protoss are a few:
a) immortals overperform vs mech b) Terran mech cannot upgrade their units at a reasonable time to keep up with Protoss
Often times you will have a 2/0/2 Protoss player vs a 1/0 mech Terran...the price of armories needs to be reduced, could care less about upgrades being combined. If armories were 100/50, then i could afford to actually build an armory shortly after factory tech to begin upgrading my mech units, or i could even afford two upgrades to upgrade my vehicle wep AND armor!
So the reason why i say the upgrade combination is bad is mostly because blizzard are going to pat themselves on the back thinking they've made mech better -_- when it's not going to change much, and it'll actually make mech stronger vs Zerg which is crazy because mech is more viable against Zerg than Protoss right now...
The overseer change...dunno about it, i personally don't like it because it makes the game "easier" for Zergs mechanically and it's just another arbitrary one but i doubt it'll break the game so whatever on that change @_@
Its too bad we can't just have some simple change like make it so mines will explode changelings so you have a free way of defusing mines or something amusing.
Zerg struggles transitioning from ling bling muta into hive in TvZ but as soon as ultras are on the field if the game is remotely even zerg is literally invincible on creep unless you fight on a single ramp. They're insanely strong and require the absolute minimal amount of micro possible to use. Nothing is more fun than being run over by 14 ultras on 1a.
On August 20 2013 16:28 Antisocialmunky wrote: Its too bad we can't just have some simple change like make it so mines will explode changelings so you have a free way of defusing mines or something amusing.
Exploding on changelings could have some hilarious consequences. Especially if there is couple of changelings stickied to terran's bio ball :D
On August 20 2013 16:29 TheKhyira wrote: Ultralisk buff, are you serious? Oo
Zerg struggles transitioning from ling bling muta into hive in TvZ but as soon as ultras are on the field if the game is remotely even zerg is literally invincible on creep unless you fight on a single ramp. They're insanely strong and require the absolute minimal amount of micro possible to use. Nothing is more fun than being run over by 14 ultras on 1a.
14 ultras? Uhem, 14x300/200=4200/2800 in army. I am not sure if the game was even, if you can afford that many resources to spare and stay alive against terran for those 55 seconds.
Blizzard really dropping the ball with their recent approach to balance, skirting around the true issue - widow mine cost efficiency against zerg.
A widow mine that costs 75/25 (the same as a roach) and on its first firing only needs to destroy 1 baneling (50/25) + 1 zergling (25/0) to pay for itself completely. The upside gain for Terran is absurd - you often see single mines paying for themselves TEN times over in a single shot. A zerg player has to find each mine, while using an overseer, and kill it (while its protected by a bio army) without losing more than ~4 zerglings (100/0 is approx 75/25) PER MINE. And that's only accounting for its first shot. Utter insanity, when you consider that a mine doesn't just trade cost effectively, it offers space control and limits zergs movements and limits ALL zerg units speed to that of the overseer.
There isn't even a tradeoff for Terran - there is no such thing as too many mines, nor do mines become less worthwhile past a certain point in the game, nor do they become less worthwhile based on zerg's unit comp. They always retain their insane cost effectiveness and are not difficult to get quickly (reactored fact), low on the tech tree and cheap as dirt.
There are implications with buffing everything surrounding the true issue rather than just nerfing the sole problem. The more you buff zerg units with the pretense of the widow mine in its current state, in order to get win rates closer to 50%-50%, the more shaky your foundations of balance become. Somewhere down the line, the widow mine will not be able to be adjusted at all balance-wise because everything has formed around it. Can you imagine if we had:
Vipers full energy Ultralisk +50 hp Overseers super fast
And the widow mine then got nerfed or became disfavoured by terrans and no longer used in the meta (ie the comeback of tanks)? Winrates would topple over in the zerg's favour overnight in a ridiculously hilarious fashion.
I may be being cynical, but in my mind Blizzard's newfound hardheadessness is a threat to the game I enjoy so much.
On August 20 2013 16:35 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I don't think the whole combine upgrades thing is what will fix mech at all... they really need some unit changes.
Now blizzard has a valid reason for not buffing/redesigning mech: "buffing mech would make starports transition too powerful due to shared upgrades. But as always we're going to keep a close(d) eye on it".
On August 20 2013 16:29 TheKhyira wrote: Ultralisk buff, are you serious? Oo
Zerg struggles transitioning from ling bling muta into hive in TvZ but as soon as ultras are on the field if the game is remotely even zerg is literally invincible on creep unless you fight on a single ramp. They're insanely strong and require the absolute minimal amount of micro possible to use. Nothing is more fun than being run over by 14 ultras on 1a.
14 ultras? Uhem, 14x300/200=4200/2800 in army. I am not sure if the game was even, if you can afford that many resources to spare and stay alive against terran for those 55 seconds.
You go up to 6, then you sit, then you sit some more and ta-da! maxed out ultras.
There isn't even a tradeoff for Terran - there is no such thing as too many mines, nor do mines become less worthwhile past a certain point in the game, nor do they become less worthwhile based on zerg's unit comp. They always retain their insane cost effectiveness and are not difficult to get quickly (reactored fact), low on the tech tree and cheap as dirt.
Mines are supply heavy. There is definitely a thing as too many mines as your real army value can drop too low to win fights.
There isn't even a tradeoff for Terran - there is no such thing as too many mines, nor do mines become less worthwhile past a certain point in the game, nor do they become less worthwhile based on zerg's unit comp. They always retain their insane cost effectiveness and are not difficult to get quickly (reactored fact), low on the tech tree and cheap as dirt.
Mines are supply heavy. There is definitely a thing as too many mines as your real army value can drop too low to win fights.
This Ultralisk buff is not gonna be a good one... The zerg struggle with TvZ is not in the lategame, it is in the stage where the terran can keep throwing MMMM at him until he can get up ultralisks. Once ultralisks are out, and static defense gets built, the match-up no longer favors the terran players. 50 more health with 6 armor, that is just a sick sick sick buff...
On August 20 2013 16:29 TheKhyira wrote: Ultralisk buff, are you serious? Oo
Zerg struggles transitioning from ling bling muta into hive in TvZ but as soon as ultras are on the field if the game is remotely even zerg is literally invincible on creep unless you fight on a single ramp. They're insanely strong and require the absolute minimal amount of micro possible to use. Nothing is more fun than being run over by 14 ultras on 1a.
14 ultras? Uhem, 14x300/200=4200/2800 in army. I am not sure if the game was even, if you can afford that many resources to spare and stay alive against terran for those 55 seconds.
You go up to 6, then you sit, then you sit some more and ta-da! maxed out ultras.
I remember seeing one such TvZ, where zerg did go to 6 ultras and was sitting around on creep. He lost approximately 6 hatcheries just by rallied rounds of units from few barracks into his fringe bases. It was pretty cute seeing zerg running around map, catching those annoying 4 marauders, that sniped hatch and went home, all the while trying not to get his infestors caught in a random mine shots
first of all its awesome that blizz keeps on buffing stuff instead of nerfing it.
overseer buff is nice and needed. upgrade buff is nice since T players are able to transition from mech to air or bio to mech/air easier now.
ultra buff...hmm. its okay i guess since ultras are still weak in ZvP lategame (ZvP = SHs or die) and are too bad offcreep and too good oncreep lategame ZvT if you reach it on equal footing. and heres the problem...you dont reach it on equal footing vs equally skilled opponent.
still like the ultrabuff. now the next buffs should be lairtech buff to Z harrass (ovidrop, nydus, burrowmovement) and give hydras some +bio dmg while also buffing tanks and reduce BC build time so both mech and bio into mech gets better while staying on bio all game gets worse.
its been said throughout the thread, one of the biggest struggles for zergs in zvt seems to be time. there simply is not enough time to get up enough resources to transition into hive tech without taking serious losses to 2/2 bio mine.
we'd be better off seeing nerfs to widow mine build time and buffs to ultralisk build time rather than having ultralisks suddenly get a huge health boost - this has the chance of turning ZvP on its head and having basically no effect on ZvT.
Wow that Ultra buff came out of left field! Interesting one, i disapprove of it as i think it will be pretty silly. They don't look a shite unit in HOTS, they just are an Ultralisk...a good solid unit but if you wait to long with them you can get countered with them.
Looking forward to seeing the armory changes implemented and hope it helps players go mech more
There isn't even a tradeoff for Terran - there is no such thing as too many mines, nor do mines become less worthwhile past a certain point in the game, nor do they become less worthwhile based on zerg's unit comp. They always retain their insane cost effectiveness and are not difficult to get quickly (reactored fact), low on the tech tree and cheap as dirt.
Mines are supply heavy. There is definitely a thing as too many mines as your real army value can drop too low to win fights.
Please - a roach is supply heavy. When zerg has 40-50 more supply and they get crushed in the fight regardless because they had more than a few roaches in their army - then you can call that supply heavy.
Widow mine (75/25, 2 supply) versus an alternative 2 marines (100/0, 2 supply) when the widow mine is just as if not more cost effective than 2 marines can be and offers more than just damage (space control). That is not supply heavy. Anyone can imagine a 1-unit army composition getting crushed by some other (more balanced) unit composition. Let's not start calling that 'supply heavy' - especially when you see players like Innovation making upwards of 15-20 mines as part of his standard army without negative repercussions.
upgrades ok, overseer ok, ultra... well the t3 transition was the problem at prolevel, and i do not think zerg t3 is weak, quite the opposite in fact, this would just give terran even more reason to attack with 4m before hive.
Revert hellbat nerf or make it a 25% reduction of original value, reduce widow mine AOE radius. Seriously as others have said wtf with the ultra/ viper change what are they thinking. It doesn't address the issue of midgame tvz if that is the problem and seriously fuck the WoL era of "terran always on a clock" which the ultra buff would contribute to.
Also has anyone noticed blizzards obsession with the number 50 / rather big nerfs / buffs? Do they do this for other races too? Hellbat damage 50% nerf Blue flame upgrade damage 50% nerf. Emp Radius 50% nerf Snipe damage 50% nerf Cloak cost reduced by 50% Ultralisk health increase by 50. Viper energy to 100% Queen patch increase range to 5 zerg win rate by 50%(joke) Is this just a perfect number for balancing? cutting everything in half? why not 25% then 50%
The sad part is that this is going through, because there is very little difference gameplaywise that would make for a reasonable argument between a 500 and a 550 ultralisk. Just that the second one is unnecessarily stronger.
I think they should just make widow mines get destroyed after they fire. Like real mines. It would affect terran's mid game a lot, as when you win engagements you'll still lose the supply and units, while when you loose engagements it won't change a lot as widow mines are rarely able to retreat in those situations. It may need tweaks but I believe it's the way to go as they won't change the fundamentals of the game (mules injects etc) that cause problems in the first place (see WCG soulkey vs innovation, soulkey died cause innovation was on 5 bases and scvs kills didn't matter anymore). The ultra buff is kind of a joke, zergs have trouble getting to late game but late game seems pretty okay, ultra/infestors is strong. Whatever for the supersonic overseers, won't matter. Easier scouting if anything.
On August 20 2013 16:29 TheKhyira wrote: Ultralisk buff, are you serious? Oo
Zerg struggles transitioning from ling bling muta into hive in TvZ but as soon as ultras are on the field if the game is remotely even zerg is literally invincible on creep unless you fight on a single ramp. They're insanely strong and require the absolute minimal amount of micro possible to use. Nothing is more fun than being run over by 14 ultras on 1a.
14 ultras? Uhem, 14x300/200=4200/2800 in army. I am not sure if the game was even, if you can afford that many resources to spare and stay alive against terran for those 55 seconds.
You go up to 6, then you sit, then you sit some more and ta-da! maxed out ultras.
I dont agree with the ultra buff, but if they have 14 ultras you just drop every expansion and can win a base race no problem.
Blizzard still thinks combining mech/air upgrades are going to somehow magically help mech? It can't be that hard to nerf immortals so they aren't overperforming against mech and buffing siege tanks damage a little so that they could actually scare something.
On August 20 2013 17:31 Nimix wrote: I think they should just make widow mines get destroyed after they fire. Like real mines. It would affect terran's mid game a lot, as when you win engagements you'll still lose the supply and units, while when you loose engagements it won't change a lot as widow mines are rarely able to retreat in those situations. It may need tweaks but I believe it's the way to go as they won't change the fundamentals of the game (mules injects etc) that cause problems in the first place (see WCG soulkey vs innovation, soulkey died cause innovation was on 5 bases and scvs kills didn't matter anymore). The ultra buff is kind of a joke, zergs have trouble getting to late game but late game seems pretty okay, ultra/infestors is strong. Whatever for the supersonic overseers, won't matter. Easier scouting if anything.
I thought Mines should get some sort of change: Limited firing time but faster burrow speed and then receive a late game upgrade buff. Honestly the biggest problem is snowballing with mine count is not that hard. It's hard to clear every mine because of multi prone attacks will need overseer in each of the location to spot and kill them.
With a limited firing count, then there will be some pressure for the terran to not just keep protecting the mines and rallying units and split when the time asks for it
why don't they stick to what they say and change SOMETHING THAT IS UNDERUSED instead of just buffing the ultralisk everyone is playing?
roach tunneling claws, long time no see swarm hosts, long time no see in ZvT hydralisks, long time no see in ZvT drops, long time no see viper, long time no see in ZvT (just don't give it a random 200energy thing...) nydus, long time no see neural parasite, long time no see corruptor, long time no see in ZvT
On August 20 2013 17:24 Nibbler89 wrote: Revert hellbat nerf or make it a 25% reduction of original value, reduce widow mine AOE radius. Seriously as others have said wtf with the ultra/ viper change what are they thinking. It doesn't address the issue of midgame tvz if that is the problem and seriously fuck the WoL era of "terran always on a clock" which the ultra buff would contribute to.
Also has anyone noticed blizzards obsession with the number 50 / rather big nerfs / buffs? Do they do this for other races too? Hellbat damage 50% nerf Blue flame upgrade damage 50% nerf. Emp Radius 50% nerf Snipe damage 50% nerf Cloak cost reduced by 50% Ultralisk health increase by 50. Viper energy to 100% Queen patch increase range to 5 zerg win rate by 50%(joke) Is this just a perfect number for balancing? cutting everything in half? why not 25% then 50%
Hellbat damage was removal of +12 light bonus, not 50% Blue flame 50%, but it is 5, number blizzard actually uses. Emp Radius was from 2 to 1.5, 0.5, not 50% (well 50% is 0.5, but it is usually used as in 50% of original radius). Ghost cost from 150/150 to 200/100, not 50%. Also, hellbat damage was nerfed to make sure they would be 3 hit shotting all workers. So either 18 +1 that makes no sense, either only 18.
On August 20 2013 17:35 Big J wrote: why don't they stick to what they say and change SOMETHING THAT IS UNDERUSED instead of just buffing the ultralisk everyone is playing?
roach tunneling claws, long time no see swarm hosts, long time no see in ZvT hydralisks, long time no see in ZvT drops, long time no see viper, long time no see in ZvT (just don't give it a random 200energy thing...) nydus, long time no see neural parasite, long time no see corruptor, long time no see in ZvT
Suggest buff to any of this, that makes sense. Good luck.
On August 20 2013 17:33 Mehukannu wrote: Blizzard still thinks combining mech/air upgrades are going to somehow magically help mech? It can't be that hard to nerf immortals so they aren't overperforming against mech and buffing siege tanks damage a little so that they could actually scare something.
That change is not for mech play. It is for easier incorporation of hellbats in late game (since you usually have attack upgrades for vikings).
Buffing the ultras health is what they come up with? I dont even know what to say....
I like the idea that someone brought up about unlocking 3-3 for zerg with infestation pit. That way the zerg could stay alive longer with muta/ling and when he finaly transitions he can go straight for the choice of T3 tech/units he wants. As it is now we see zergs being forced to stay way to long on 2-2 lair tech and when he eventually gets the hive he somehow has to afford everything at once, having to build 3-3, greater spire or ultra cavern, adrenaline claws all at once. And thats when they are usually already behind or in a very fragile situation.
I really don't feel Ultralisks are underwhelming at this point. I guess Zerg feels a little weak lategame, if not going for Swarmhosts, but this is also a buff to that style, since going against Swarmhosts, you still need to be ready for the tech switches.
On August 20 2013 17:33 Mehukannu wrote: Blizzard still thinks combining mech/air upgrades are going to somehow magically help mech? It can't be that hard to nerf immortals so they aren't overperforming against mech and buffing siege tanks damage a little so that they could actually scare something.
That change is not for mech play. It is for easier incorporation of hellbats in late game (since you usually have attack upgrades for vikings).
Pretty much this.
Mech play is a no-go in HoTS. They will need to make quite a few changes to make mech work and that won't happen until LoTV.
I can't see them ignoring make on the last expanion/last chance. That would just be sad.
On August 20 2013 17:35 Big J wrote: why don't they stick to what they say and change SOMETHING THAT IS UNDERUSED instead of just buffing the ultralisk everyone is playing?
roach tunneling claws, long time no see swarm hosts, long time no see in ZvT hydralisks, long time no see in ZvT drops, long time no see viper, long time no see in ZvT (just don't give it a random 200energy thing...) nydus, long time no see neural parasite, long time no see corruptor, long time no see in ZvT
Suggest buff to any of this, that makes sense. Good luck.
burrowed roachspeed increased SHs is hard to change without redesign hydras 6 base range + +dmg to bio while lowering +dmg bio from spores to not make roach hydra the only strat ZvZ drops increase ovispeed from HT speed to sth useful viper BC now makes units -5 range so tanks have still use while making BC stick to units for 4 sec also nydus unload units faster neural no more channeling (if too strong for lower duration or even only neutralizing instead of getting opponents unit) corruptors corruption changed into sth that affects ground once air units are dead (viking/phoenix like)
So why didnt they increase the damage output of the Siege Tank if they think mech is underpowered?
The upgrade change is unstylish and if you go mech you get it anyways, so nothing changes. The "switch to air" or "better support from air" arguments are stupid because Terran air is relatively useless against ground (Fungal and massed Hydras really make Banshees very inefficient) and against Broodlords the damage output of Vikings seemed ok so far.
On August 20 2013 17:48 Rabiator wrote: So why didnt they increase the damage output of the Siege Tank if they think mech is underpowered?
The upgrade change is unstylish and if you go mech you get it anyways, so nothing changes. The "switch to air" or "better support from air" arguments are stupid because Terran air is relatively useless against ground (Fungal and massed Hydras really make Banshees very inefficient) and against Broodlords the damage output of Vikings seemed ok so far.
My guess is that blizzard likes the fact that terran is that low supply, swarmish super mobile race (it should've been the zergs, but eh w/e ^^), hence why they don't want to reput the tank in the metagame.
On August 20 2013 17:48 Rabiator wrote: So why didnt they increase the damage output of the Siege Tank if they think mech is underpowered?
The upgrade change is unstylish and if you go mech you get it anyways, so nothing changes. The "switch to air" or "better support from air" arguments are stupid because Terran air is relatively useless against ground (Fungal and massed Hydras really make Banshees very inefficient) and against Broodlords the damage output of Vikings seemed ok so far.
Battlecruisers are very strong versus zerg I think, so theoretically it could make transitions to air stronger, but I don't know of terran builds that get mech weapon upgrades because they don't use the siege tank anymore.
-- I think the ultralisk change could be helpful, zergs tend to lose to terran when teching to hive and their first few ultralisks aren't too helpful. I don't like the change though, I feel like it might balance the brief transition window shortly after hive, but leave the bulk of late game play strongly in zerg's favor. Ultralisks are already stronger than they were in WoL, do they need even more buffs?
My preferred change is to weaken terran bio-mine slightly and to give them ghosts as a necessary transition for late game.
I love how half the people are whining because "the ultras are going to be too strong", and half the people are whining because "ZvT won't be fixed at all". Just try it out, people. I guess it's cool to have threads like these some of the time to remind us how much everyone is ready to cry on details.
Mech change is fine since all races generally agree that mech is terrible. On the other-hand Zerg does not need buffs considering that they're already favored on ladder.
Terran will never play Mech as long as MMM is so cost effective, no matter what buffs Mech gets. They will just cry over and over that it's not viable because of Immortals and Vipers and keep pushing that "A" button, like they always do.
I don't see how overseer buff will help zerg much, except for maybe better scouting.
Ultralisk seems already one of the strongest units in the game, why would the buff it, only God knows.
On August 20 2013 17:55 Nebuchad wrote: I love how half the people are whining because "the ultras are going to be too strong", and half the people are whining because "ZvT won't be fixed at all". Just try it out, people. I guess it's cool to have threads like these some of the time to remind us how much everyone is ready to cry on details.
To me it seems like almost everyone is saying that zerg late game isnt weak and ultras dont need a buff at all. Blizzard should instead be looking at what happens on the way to the late game. Atleast from a ZvT perspective
How do you go from wanting to buff Vipers (a unit that is vastly underused, and sorely needed in late game ZvT imo) to wanting to give Ultras a 50hp buff? That doesn't really make a ton of sense. I mean, I'm not saying it's a bad change, nor do I think you can rationally argue that it will make Ultras suddenly OP or anything but...it just seems like more dartboard balance changes from Blizzard and I just really don't understand.
I really wish instead of things like buffing starting energy or research upgrades to add to starting mana, they would do things like increasing the energy recharge rate or something. A buff/upgrade that makes spellcasters more useful faster, and also gives staying power.
it seems we are all at the mercy of random changes blizzard come up during their morning coffee, sometimes i wish some other institution like kespa was in charge of balancing the game
Make hive upgrade cost as much as as the lair upgrade and reduce the price of zerg upgrades. That seems a far better change than some ham-fisted ultralisk buff.
On August 20 2013 17:55 Nebuchad wrote: I love how half the people are whining because "the ultras are going to be too strong", and half the people are whining because "ZvT won't be fixed at all". Just try it out, people. I guess it's cool to have threads like these some of the time to remind us how much everyone is ready to cry on details.
To me it seems like almost everyone is saying that zerg late game isnt weak and ultras dont need a buff at all. Blizzard should instead be looking at what happens on the way to the late game. Atleast from a ZvT perspective
People don't go for fast Hive/Ultralisk because it doesn't really work anymore against high terran player, if a buff to the Ultralisk legitimate this path you could see some zerg players trying to go faster Hive, because it will be worth it.
On August 20 2013 17:33 Mehukannu wrote: Blizzard still thinks combining mech/air upgrades are going to somehow magically help mech? It can't be that hard to nerf immortals so they aren't overperforming against mech and buffing siege tanks damage a little so that they could actually scare something.
That change is not for mech play. It is for easier incorporation of hellbats in late game (since you usually have attack upgrades for vikings).
Hellbats are easy to incorporate with bio in late game, but there is no reason to add them since they just slow down the whole bio composition. You only really need the pre-igniter upgrade for the damage and you already get air/ground armor in the same package so that isn't a problem. If you retreat you'll end up losing most of your hellbats if not all and if you are in a situation where you are going after the retreating enemy army, they just end up blocking your path, which isn't a big problem, but it is little annoying, when you are aiming to snipe as much as possible.
On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote: I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg. This change, will make it impossible.
... what? You think it is hard to deny scouting from zerg? Do you build observers ever? How do you stop scans?
I use hallucinations nowadays :-) It's just an observation, and a side effect blizzard doesn't intend. If they want to change ZvT they should change it there.
On August 20 2013 18:11 Tsubbi wrote: it seems we are all at the mercy of random changes blizzard come up during their morning coffee, sometimes i wish some other institution like kespa was in charge of balancing the game
David Kim announced this change on Climbing the Ladder. Whatever you might say about him, he is fairly transparent and will tell the community about his current thoughts etc.
On August 20 2013 18:23 Timmsh wrote: I use hallucinations nowadays :-) It's just an observation, and a side effect blizzard doesn't intend. If they want to change ZvT they should change it there.
Edit: clarity
Oh, even worse reason to say Z cant scout. And what do you mean what they didnt intend? If a Z has speed and overseers then this is probably at least beyond 10 minutes in...
Widow mine: "This unit deals Spell damage with its attack, which is not affected by opposing Armor upgrades, friendly Vehicle Weapons upgrades or abilities like the Immortal's Hardened Shield. Viper's Blinding Cloud won't stop the activation for the same reason. Widow Mines are not affected by the splash damage of friendly Widow Mines." From liquidpedia.
I think blizzard should try making armor reduce the damage of widow mines. And considering mines are very cheap and can be reactored I would also like to see them implement friendly fire to widow mines.
On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote: I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg. This change, will make it impossible.
hallucination phoenix is the most effective scouting imo.... plus its not like an overseer wont see everything important already anyway
the changes are both very bad. Battlecruisers are too strong vs zerg, but not very viable atm. Anything that can potentially make this transition easier is probably not going to be good unless zerg gets an anti air unit soon.
ultra change is w/e, does not address tvz issue.
regardless of balance changes mines need to take priority from attacking units so that lings/bling dont just run over them in fights. The fact this has not been addressed yet baffles me.
I would suggest making 3/3 upgradeable with a lair.
On August 20 2013 18:01 ottosec wrote: Terran will never play Mech as long as MMM is so cost effective, no matter what buffs Mech gets. They will just cry over and over that it's not viable because of Immortals and Vipers and keep pushing that "A" button, like they always do.
I don't see how overseer buff will help zerg much, except for maybe better scouting.
Ultralisk seems already one of the strongest units in the game, why would the buff it, only God knows.
Because Terran players surely enjoy losing their entire bio army, that has to be meticulously micro'd down, to F + click and a-move. Mech is actually very viable despite what Code S players say, and all Terrans are secretly masochistic.
I don't like how they seem to not care about the units that aren't viable in certain or all matchups such as Swarmhosts in TvZ, the complete dissapearance of Broodlords in all matchups (or TvZ only), lategame oracles, and CARRIERS, for F's sake. Buff them directly please, instead of making these "indirect" buffs that will end up in buffing other parts of gameplay like they did a while ago (*cough* Queens *cough*).
On the upside I'm interested in seeing where the Overseer buff will lead to. Maybe Zerg will have an easier time dealing against widow mines with them around.
On August 20 2013 18:11 Tsubbi wrote: it seems we are all at the mercy of random changes blizzard come up during their morning coffee, sometimes i wish some other institution like kespa was in charge of balancing the game
David Kim announced this change on Climbing the Ladder. Whatever you might say about him, he is fairly transparent and will tell the community about his current thoughts etc.
what he actually said was the alternatives to the overseer buff where ultralisk hp buff or blinding cloud affecting widow mines
in addition he mentioned in multiple interviews that vipers are not strong and will be changed
so now they remove the viper buff and buff ultralisk, there is just no consistency in what blizzard says or does
I sometimes feel they are kinda good at identifying what is wrong with the game but then they just kinda throw shit at it and hope that something works. The ultra change is so insanely random for example, and combining air with ground upgrades helps mech transitioning into air, and I guess tank/hellbat/viking early on in tvt is gonna get a bit stronger vs bio in tvt, but it sure as hell won't make mech any more viable. I do like the overseer change though thats something they should have changed either when they made the widowmine not suicide or when they made overlord speed hatch tech, but oh well. TBH right now looking at tournament results and how I think some of the metas will progress I honestly think protoss should recieve a small nerf. Terran is kinda screwed now because hellbat is pretty meh after the nerf so there is no real answer to chargelots anymore and with mamaship core many protoss continue to figure out that all they have to do is not die and take as little damage as possible and they are fine. PvZ I really think P will eventually figure out that if you just do super sharp ultra allin 2 base builds with a mothership core you should get an insanely high winrate. So looking at that I think P, mainly the core, may be a bit too strong atm, though it's really hard to point out what exactly needs to be changed, maybe make some of those abilities an upgrade. On the other hand looking at how few upgrades star 2 has compared to brood war and how many they already removed I feel like they hate upgrades.
On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote: I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg. This change, will make it impossible.
hallucination phoenix is the most effective scouting imo.... plus its not like an overseer wont see everything important already anyway
the changes are both very bad. Battlecruisers are too strong vs zerg, but not very viable atm. Anything that can potentially make this transition easier is probably not going to be good unless zerg gets an anti air unit soon.
ultra change is w/e, does not address tvz issue.
regardless of balance changes mines need to take priority from attacking units so that lings/bling dont just run over them in fights. The fact this has not been addressed yet baffles me.
I would suggest making 3/3 upgradeable with a lair.
You realisw that pure corrupter actually beats skyterran as long as you don't clump up and get everything seeker missiled right?
Just spread out like Terran does with vikings vs zerg due to fungal and you'll be fine. Also if they're going mech (more likely to sky transition) you should really be getting air upgrades.
On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote: I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg. This change, will make it impossible.
hallucination phoenix is the most effective scouting imo.... plus its not like an overseer wont see everything important already anyway
the changes are both very bad. Battlecruisers are too strong vs zerg, but not very viable atm. Anything that can potentially make this transition easier is probably not going to be good unless zerg gets an anti air unit soon.
ultra change is w/e, does not address tvz issue.
regardless of balance changes mines need to take priority from attacking units so that lings/bling dont just run over them in fights. The fact this has not been addressed yet baffles me.
I would suggest making 3/3 upgradeable with a lair.
You realisw that pure corrupter actually beats skyterran as long as you don't clump up and get everything seeker missiled right?
Just spread out like Terran does with vikings vs zerg due to fungal and you'll be fine. Also if they're going mech (more likely to sky transition) you should really be getting air upgrades.
Mass corruptors/swarmhosts/vipers + mass spores/spines actually beat EVERY SINGLE TERRAN COMPOSITION, including skyterran. The Terran can't break your position, and given abduct's range, you will slowly kill every single one of his.
This is the issue with vipers. The unit is in most situations underpowered, but they are a few lategame scenario where the unit becomes virtually the most imbalanced unit in the game. Abduct is the reason for all this.
On August 20 2013 17:55 Nebuchad wrote: I love how half the people are whining because "the ultras are going to be too strong", and half the people are whining because "ZvT won't be fixed at all". Just try it out, people. I guess it's cool to have threads like these some of the time to remind us how much everyone is ready to cry on details.
No, it makes perfect sense that people are whining like this. Ultras are already extremely strong, and buffing them is extremely questionable but still "ZvT won't be fixed at all" because the main problem zergs have been having vs terran (at the very top level) is their inability to transition to hive tech because they'll get rolled by the endless waves of marines and mines whilst doing so. It's just a completely random change that makes absolutely no sense given what is currently going on in top level Korean TvZ games as of late.
On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote: I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg. This change, will make it impossible.
hallucination phoenix is the most effective scouting imo.... plus its not like an overseer wont see everything important already anyway
the changes are both very bad. Battlecruisers are too strong vs zerg, but not very viable atm. Anything that can potentially make this transition easier is probably not going to be good unless zerg gets an anti air unit soon.
ultra change is w/e, does not address tvz issue.
regardless of balance changes mines need to take priority from attacking units so that lings/bling dont just run over them in fights. The fact this has not been addressed yet baffles me.
I would suggest making 3/3 upgradeable with a lair.
You realisw that pure corrupter actually beats skyterran as long as you don't clump up and get everything seeker missiled right?
Just spread out like Terran does with vikings vs zerg due to fungal and you'll be fine. Also if they're going mech (more likely to sky transition) you should really be getting air upgrades.
Mass corruptors/swarmhosts/vipers + mass spores/spines actually beat EVERY SINGLE TERRAN COMPOSITION, including skyterran. The Terran can't break your position, and given abduct's range, you will slowly kill every single one of his.
pure corruptor is like the worst thing vs skyterran. PDD + seeker + vikings own that really hard.
mass spore SH viper works only if T forgets to just nuke locusts and after that use the timing window to just nuke all spores and spines and win the game or if Z goes back move forward.
SH spore viper is just stupid and boring, not imbalanced. Z only plays this vs P lategame or vs raven BC + support since nothing else works vs that. would be nice if they nerf SH turtle and finally buff AA Z + give Z a way to deal with spellcaster.
On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote: I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg. This change, will make it impossible.
hallucination phoenix is the most effective scouting imo.... plus its not like an overseer wont see everything important already anyway
the changes are both very bad. Battlecruisers are too strong vs zerg, but not very viable atm. Anything that can potentially make this transition easier is probably not going to be good unless zerg gets an anti air unit soon.
ultra change is w/e, does not address tvz issue.
regardless of balance changes mines need to take priority from attacking units so that lings/bling dont just run over them in fights. The fact this has not been addressed yet baffles me.
I would suggest making 3/3 upgradeable with a lair.
You realisw that pure corrupter actually beats skyterran as long as you don't clump up and get everything seeker missiled right?
Just spread out like Terran does with vikings vs zerg due to fungal and you'll be fine. Also if they're going mech (more likely to sky transition) you should really be getting air upgrades.
wrong. That's only if you rely on mass seeker missile for your skyterran. if you rely on BC/Viking/PDD/Yamato you beat corruptors quite handily.
The way to combat skyterran is Viper+Corruptor+static defense and pull them into you. Everything else loses to the above if it is in the proper ratio (against hydras you need BC/PDD, against Corruptors you need Viking/PDD, against Infestors you need BC/Seeker)
On August 20 2013 17:55 Nebuchad wrote: I love how half the people are whining because "the ultras are going to be too strong", and half the people are whining because "ZvT won't be fixed at all". Just try it out, people. I guess it's cool to have threads like these some of the time to remind us how much everyone is ready to cry on details.
No, it makes perfect sense that people are whining like this. Ultras are already extremely strong, and buffing them is extremely questionable but still "ZvT won't be fixed at all" because the main problem zergs have been having vs terran (at the very top level) is their inability to transition to hive tech because they'll get rolled by the endless waves of marines and mines whilst doing so. It's just a completely random change that makes absolutely no sense given what is currently going on in top level Korean TvZ games as of late.
Did David Kim say the changes are because of top level korean games? Usually SC2 patches should reflect most levels of play, right? You can't just buff the ultra if every terran in gold and platinum gets rolled.
On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote: I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg. This change, will make it impossible.
hallucination phoenix is the most effective scouting imo.... plus its not like an overseer wont see everything important already anyway
the changes are both very bad. Battlecruisers are too strong vs zerg, but not very viable atm. Anything that can potentially make this transition easier is probably not going to be good unless zerg gets an anti air unit soon.
ultra change is w/e, does not address tvz issue.
regardless of balance changes mines need to take priority from attacking units so that lings/bling dont just run over them in fights. The fact this has not been addressed yet baffles me.
I would suggest making 3/3 upgradeable with a lair.
You realisw that pure corrupter actually beats skyterran as long as you don't clump up and get everything seeker missiled right?
Just spread out like Terran does with vikings vs zerg due to fungal and you'll be fine. Also if they're going mech (more likely to sky transition) you should really be getting air upgrades.
Mass corruptors/swarmhosts/vipers + mass spores/spines actually beat EVERY SINGLE TERRAN COMPOSITION, including skyterran. The Terran can't break your position, and given abduct's range, you will slowly kill every single one of his.
This is the issue with vipers. The unit is in most situations underpowered, but they are a few lategame scenario where the unit becomes virtually the most imbalanced unit in the game. Abduct is the reason for all this.
you obviously haven't seen the power of skyterran during the beta where a lot of pro gamer used it.
On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote: I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg. This change, will make it impossible.
hallucination phoenix is the most effective scouting imo.... plus its not like an overseer wont see everything important already anyway
the changes are both very bad. Battlecruisers are too strong vs zerg, but not very viable atm. Anything that can potentially make this transition easier is probably not going to be good unless zerg gets an anti air unit soon.
ultra change is w/e, does not address tvz issue.
regardless of balance changes mines need to take priority from attacking units so that lings/bling dont just run over them in fights. The fact this has not been addressed yet baffles me.
I would suggest making 3/3 upgradeable with a lair.
You realisw that pure corrupter actually beats skyterran as long as you don't clump up and get everything seeker missiled right?
Just spread out like Terran does with vikings vs zerg due to fungal and you'll be fine. Also if they're going mech (more likely to sky transition) you should really be getting air upgrades.
Mass corruptors/swarmhosts/vipers + mass spores/spines actually beat EVERY SINGLE TERRAN COMPOSITION, including skyterran. The Terran can't break your position, and given abduct's range, you will slowly kill every single one of his.
pure corruptor is like the worst thing vs skyterran. PDD + seeker + vikings own that really hard.
mass spore SH viper works only if T forgets to just nuke locusts and after that use the timing window to just nuke all spores and spines and win the game or if Z goes back move forward.
You realize they are overseers and that spore have detection. Thus how are you suppose to nuke anything given the endless swarm of locus and the eventuality of getting abducted. Even if the nukes land, you are trading minerals/gaz (nuke) for pure minerals or static position (if Zerg retreats).
Sure this unit composition does not equal auto-win and is hard to micro, but it is so cost-effective since Zerg doesn't lose anything except few mis-microed vipers here and there and some spores/spines.
On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote: I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg. This change, will make it impossible.
hallucination phoenix is the most effective scouting imo.... plus its not like an overseer wont see everything important already anyway
the changes are both very bad. Battlecruisers are too strong vs zerg, but not very viable atm. Anything that can potentially make this transition easier is probably not going to be good unless zerg gets an anti air unit soon.
ultra change is w/e, does not address tvz issue.
regardless of balance changes mines need to take priority from attacking units so that lings/bling dont just run over them in fights. The fact this has not been addressed yet baffles me.
I would suggest making 3/3 upgradeable with a lair.
You realisw that pure corrupter actually beats skyterran as long as you don't clump up and get everything seeker missiled right?
Just spread out like Terran does with vikings vs zerg due to fungal and you'll be fine. Also if they're going mech (more likely to sky transition) you should really be getting air upgrades.
Mass corruptors/swarmhosts/vipers + mass spores/spines actually beat EVERY SINGLE TERRAN COMPOSITION, including skyterran. The Terran can't break your position, and given abduct's range, you will slowly kill every single one of his.
pure corruptor is like the worst thing vs skyterran. PDD + seeker + vikings own that really hard.
mass spore SH viper works only if T forgets to just nuke locusts and after that use the timing window to just nuke all spores and spines and win the game or if Z goes back move forward.
You realize they are overseers and that spore have detection. Thus how are you suppose to nuke anything given the endless swarm of locus and the eventuality of getting abducted. Even if the nukes land, you are trading minerals/gaz (nuke) for pure minerals or static position (if Zerg retreats).
under support of PDD, or simply by standing at the flank of locusts you can land nuke, if it is well timed. And job of nuke is not to destroy army, but to zone it away, while taking ground with BC-raven-Company.
Ultralisks buff wont help at all, because zerg still have big trouble to find the time to go Hive. Look the last two weeks of wcs&wcg. All games except one game at Innovation vs Soulkey Terran had 3-3 before Zerg Hive was done and always at this time Zerg has to write GG.
On August 20 2013 19:26 Dingodile wrote: Ultralisks buff wont help at all, because zerg still have big trouble to find the time to go Hive. Look the last two weeks of wcs&wcg. All games except one game at Innovation vs Soulkey Terran had 3-3 before Zerg Hive was done and always at this time Zerg has to write GG.
Pretty much this. I don't remember when last time there was a Korean Level TvZ where sides were on even footing in upgrades and stuff.
I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different.
On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech?
You missed about 2 pages of discussion. I think it could work.... But then zergs SUDDENLY would not have resources to find to get 3-3 on lair tech even.
On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote: I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg. This change, will make it impossible.
hallucination phoenix is the most effective scouting imo.... plus its not like an overseer wont see everything important already anyway
the changes are both very bad. Battlecruisers are too strong vs zerg, but not very viable atm. Anything that can potentially make this transition easier is probably not going to be good unless zerg gets an anti air unit soon.
ultra change is w/e, does not address tvz issue.
regardless of balance changes mines need to take priority from attacking units so that lings/bling dont just run over them in fights. The fact this has not been addressed yet baffles me.
I would suggest making 3/3 upgradeable with a lair.
You realisw that pure corrupter actually beats skyterran as long as you don't clump up and get everything seeker missiled right?
Just spread out like Terran does with vikings vs zerg due to fungal and you'll be fine. Also if they're going mech (more likely to sky transition) you should really be getting air upgrades.
Mass corruptors/swarmhosts/vipers + mass spores/spines actually beat EVERY SINGLE TERRAN COMPOSITION, including skyterran. The Terran can't break your position, and given abduct's range, you will slowly kill every single one of his.
This is the issue with vipers. The unit is in most situations underpowered, but they are a few lategame scenario where the unit becomes virtually the most imbalanced unit in the game. Abduct is the reason for all this.
First of, MMM beats this easily for as long as you run around the locusts, you need a lot of infestors too against MMM. (try 100marines vs 33swarm hosts in a unit tester; the outcome will be 33dead swarm hosts and 20-30dead marines; and that's a supply vs supply battle, disregarding how swarm hosts cost much more) Edit: did I say for as long as you run around the locusts? I meant when you amove into them you still win quite handily, but running around them is of course cleverer.
Secondly, ghosts and Vikings kill Vipers when they try to abduct, nukes are pretty amazing against Static D play as well. We have hardly any evidence of which composition would come out ahead in a Mech/sky/PF/Turret vs swarmhost/corruptor/Spine/Spore/Infestor/Viper war. On paper it sounds like neither player can attack into the other, and as long as Terran has enough firepower to kill the locusts before they do damage, it should be a stalemate.
On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech?
You missed about 2 pages of discussion. I think it could work.... But then zergs SUDDENLY would not have resources to find to get 3-3 on lair tech even.
What about the Crackling upgrade then? I don't think having that available at say infestation pit would break either matchup and zerg might start trading more effectively
On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech?
You missed about 2 pages of discussion. I think it could work.... But then zergs SUDDENLY would not have resources to find to get 3-3 on lair tech even.
What about the Crackling upgrade then? I don't think having that available at say infestation pit would break either matchup and zerg might start trading more effectively
Maybe zergs would actually research adrenal glands, too...
On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech?
You missed about 2 pages of discussion. I think it could work.... But then zergs SUDDENLY would not have resources to find to get 3-3 on lair tech even.
What about the Crackling upgrade then? I don't think having that available at say infestation pit would break either matchup and zerg might start trading more effectively
Maybe zergs would actually research adrenal glands, too...
It's a sick good upgrade and totally underused. It makes lings trade better due to faster attack speed. That's pretty much exactly what zerg needs. And having it available at infestation pit would also buff ling/infestor so more diversity could come from it.
On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different.
It's an incredibly ugly fix to make 3/3 no longer tied to the t3 building. Now there will be games where zerg can go for mutaling and they never need to transition away from it because they don't need to invest into infestation pit + hive. Maybe it will work just to fix the current ZvT, but what if the metagame changes? (I know that terran already works this way, but it leads to problems doesn't it?)
On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech?
You missed about 2 pages of discussion. I think it could work.... But then zergs SUDDENLY would not have resources to find to get 3-3 on lair tech even.
What about the Crackling upgrade then? I don't think having that available at say infestation pit would break either matchup and zerg might start trading more effectively
Maybe zergs would actually research adrenal glands, too...
It's a sick good upgrade and totally underused. It makes lings trade better due to faster attack speed. That's pretty much exactly what zerg needs. And having it available at infestation pit would also buff ling/infestor so more diversity could come from it.
Underused? Every competent zerg at hive tech gets it.
Anyway, blizzard is desperate not to nerf the mine so they are trying to do something else...and failing miserably. I don't understand TvZ well enough to suggest changes, but i'm pretty sure an ultra buff is meaningless.
On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote: I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg. This change, will make it impossible.
hallucination phoenix is the most effective scouting imo.... plus its not like an overseer wont see everything important already anyway
the changes are both very bad. Battlecruisers are too strong vs zerg, but not very viable atm. Anything that can potentially make this transition easier is probably not going to be good unless zerg gets an anti air unit soon.
ultra change is w/e, does not address tvz issue.
regardless of balance changes mines need to take priority from attacking units so that lings/bling dont just run over them in fights. The fact this has not been addressed yet baffles me.
I would suggest making 3/3 upgradeable with a lair.
You realisw that pure corrupter actually beats skyterran as long as you don't clump up and get everything seeker missiled right?
Just spread out like Terran does with vikings vs zerg due to fungal and you'll be fine. Also if they're going mech (more likely to sky transition) you should really be getting air upgrades.
Mass corruptors/swarmhosts/vipers + mass spores/spines actually beat EVERY SINGLE TERRAN COMPOSITION, including skyterran. The Terran can't break your position, and given abduct's range, you will slowly kill every single one of his.
pure corruptor is like the worst thing vs skyterran. PDD + seeker + vikings own that really hard.
mass spore SH viper works only if T forgets to just nuke locusts and after that use the timing window to just nuke all spores and spines and win the game or if Z goes back move forward.
You realize they are overseers and that spore have detection. Thus how are you suppose to nuke anything given the endless swarm of locus and the eventuality of getting abducted. Even if the nukes land, you are trading minerals/gaz (nuke) for pure minerals or static position (if Zerg retreats).
Sure this unit composition does not equal auto-win and is hard to micro, but it is so cost-effective since Zerg doesn't lose anything except few mis-microed vipers here and there and some spores/spines.
nuke locusts, move in with your army and nuke spores spines. watch the lucifron vs gowser (not sure if it was him) on newkirk. if lucifron had build some ghosts and nuked from top and bottom it wouldnt have been a problem. and trading lets say 400 gas for 4 nukes while gaining a lot of positioning or even killing spines spores is huge. lucifron lost countless BCs which is 300 gas each + lots of buildtime. nukes wouldve been way WAY better.
OMG, just OMG. It's not like Zerg are doing bad, once they reach Ultralisk tech, they're doing bad before that happens. So buffing ultralisks, a unit in itself being absolutely strong, is the worst Idea, you could bring to the table. It once more shows, how clueless David Kim and his team is about the current state of the game.
On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech?
You missed about 2 pages of discussion. I think it could work.... But then zergs SUDDENLY would not have resources to find to get 3-3 on lair tech even.
What about the Crackling upgrade then? I don't think having that available at say infestation pit would break either matchup and zerg might start trading more effectively
Maybe zergs would actually research adrenal glands, too...
It's a sick good upgrade and totally underused. It makes lings trade better due to faster attack speed. That's pretty much exactly what zerg needs. And having it available at infestation pit would also buff ling/infestor so more diversity could come from it.
It is not underused. And having 2-2 lings with adrenal glands does not really help against 3-3 marines with healing from med-v fleet.
On August 20 2013 19:41 TeeTS wrote: OMG, just OMG. It's not like Zerg are doing bad, once they reach Ultralisk tech, they're doing bad before that happens. So buffing ultralisks, a unit in itself being absolutely strong, is the worst Idea, you could bring to the table. It once more shows, how clueless David Kim and his team is about the current state of the game.
Keep quiet, they are trying their best not to nerf terran.
On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different.
It's an incredibly ugly fix to make 3/3 no longer tied to the t3 building. Now there will be games where zerg can go for mutaling and they never need to transition away from it because they don't need to invest into infestation pit + hive. Maybe it will work just to fix the current ZvT, but what if the metagame changes? (I know that terran already works this way, but it leads to problems doesn't it?)
Well, all the races have a "step" in their upgrades. Terran has theirs at armory, protoss at twilight council and zerg at hive. The thing is that the step zerg has to take is a lot more expensive and takes a lot longer. So say all three races start upgrading at the exact same time, continue upgrading exactly when their upgrades finish. Protoss would finish first due to chronoboost, then terran and zerg. The thing is though, zerg has to invest the most money and time into those upgrades due to hive cost and building time. Which means they're the race that gets thrown off their upgrades the easiest. You can't invest into hive tech if you're under constant pressure just so you can then invest into 3/3 upgrades. As terran or protoss, the cost of armory or twilight council is a lot lower and comes at a timing were both races are generally not under pressure/ the pressure is light enough to allow for you to spend the resources into upgrading/ you need the building anyway to transition. As zerg, none of this is true. You need the hive for upgrades and if you can get them out, ultras. But during that time you're constantly under pressure (at least in TvZ) and you have to invest gas reactively into banelings whenever terran decides to attack - which with styles like Innovation's is all the time. That means if terran trades effectively, you can't afford to have resources banked to invest into something that will help you minutes from that point - or you'll die on the way there.
TL;DR: Hive for upgrades isn't as natural a transition as say infestation pit would be
I don't mind the ultralisk buff. It turns out too strong, you can just buff something else down the line in pvz. People need to just chill out a little in this community, but thats nothing new.
lol, I just realized they are testing this on Bel'Shire Vestige. I guess the next DK comment is going to be: "On our testmap terran had 97% winrate in TvZ. Therefore we buff the ultraliks to have 10000HP."
On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different.
dont require hive tech and only requires an infestation pit, would be a good middle road i think
On August 20 2013 19:41 TeeTS wrote: OMG, just OMG. It's not like Zerg are doing bad, once they reach Ultralisk tech, they're doing bad before that happens. So buffing ultralisks, a unit in itself being absolutely strong, is the worst Idea, you could bring to the table. It once more shows, how clueless David Kim and his team is about the current state of the game.
This is just ignorant. David Kim is grandmaster on all 3 races. Blizzard understands the game. Chill the Duck down.
On August 20 2013 19:52 Big J wrote: lol, I just realized they are testing this on Bel'Shire Vestige. I guess the next DK comment is going to be: "On our testmap terran had 97% winrate in TvZ. Therefore we buff the ultraliks to have 10000HP."
Haha. Or they will say: on our testmap every zerg roach-bane all-ins Terran. Therefore we make widow mine do 145 (+15 to shields) damage :D
On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different.
It's an incredibly ugly fix to make 3/3 no longer tied to the t3 building. Now there will be games where zerg can go for mutaling and they never need to transition away from it because they don't need to invest into infestation pit + hive. Maybe it will work just to fix the current ZvT, but what if the metagame changes? (I know that terran already works this way, but it leads to problems doesn't it?)
Well, all the races have a "step" in their upgrades. Terran has theirs at armory, protoss at twilight council and zerg at hive. The thing is that the step zerg has to take is a lot more expensive and takes a lot longer.
If the game reaches the T3 stage Zerg should have the highest economy and since they have the fewest number of buildings to construct it is only fair that their T3 upgrade costs a little more.
On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech?
You missed about 2 pages of discussion. I think it could work.... But then zergs SUDDENLY would not have resources to find to get 3-3 on lair tech even.
What about the Crackling upgrade then? I don't think having that available at say infestation pit would break either matchup and zerg might start trading more effectively
Maybe zergs would actually research adrenal glands, too...
It's a sick good upgrade and totally underused. It makes lings trade better due to faster attack speed. That's pretty much exactly what zerg needs. And having it available at infestation pit would also buff ling/infestor so more diversity could come from it.
Underused? Every competent zerg at hive tech gets it.
Anyway, blizzard is desperate not to nerf the mine so they are trying to do something else...and failing miserably. I don't understand TvZ well enough to suggest changes, but i'm pretty sure an ultra buff is meaningless.
Would be great if some really good people would post here to shed light on this matter.
Oh well hopefully we'll have META tonight to talk about it.
On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different.
It's an incredibly ugly fix to make 3/3 no longer tied to the t3 building. Now there will be games where zerg can go for mutaling and they never need to transition away from it because they don't need to invest into infestation pit + hive. Maybe it will work just to fix the current ZvT, but what if the metagame changes? (I know that terran already works this way, but it leads to problems doesn't it?)
Well, all the races have a "step" in their upgrades. Terran has theirs at armory, protoss at twilight council and zerg at hive. The thing is that the step zerg has to take is a lot more expensive and takes a lot longer.
If the game reaches the T3 stage Zerg should have the highest economy and since they have the fewest number of buildings to construct it is only fair that their T3 upgrade costs a little more.
On August 20 2013 18:19 Timmsh wrote: I vote against the overseer buff, because as protoss it's already hard to deny scouting from the zerg. This change, will make it impossible.
hallucination phoenix is the most effective scouting imo.... plus its not like an overseer wont see everything important already anyway
the changes are both very bad. Battlecruisers are too strong vs zerg, but not very viable atm. Anything that can potentially make this transition easier is probably not going to be good unless zerg gets an anti air unit soon.
ultra change is w/e, does not address tvz issue.
regardless of balance changes mines need to take priority from attacking units so that lings/bling dont just run over them in fights. The fact this has not been addressed yet baffles me.
I would suggest making 3/3 upgradeable with a lair.
You realisw that pure corrupter actually beats skyterran as long as you don't clump up and get everything seeker missiled right?
Just spread out like Terran does with vikings vs zerg due to fungal and you'll be fine. Also if they're going mech (more likely to sky transition) you should really be getting air upgrades.
Mass corruptors/swarmhosts/vipers + mass spores/spines actually beat EVERY SINGLE TERRAN COMPOSITION, including skyterran. The Terran can't break your position, and given abduct's range, you will slowly kill every single one of his.
This is the issue with vipers. The unit is in most situations underpowered, but they are a few lategame scenario where the unit becomes virtually the most imbalanced unit in the game. Abduct is the reason for all this.
that is literally the worst idea i have ever heard. the do-fuck-all-nothing-for-an-hour zerg turtle build.
On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different.
It's an incredibly ugly fix to make 3/3 no longer tied to the t3 building. Now there will be games where zerg can go for mutaling and they never need to transition away from it because they don't need to invest into infestation pit + hive. Maybe it will work just to fix the current ZvT, but what if the metagame changes? (I know that terran already works this way, but it leads to problems doesn't it?)
Well, all the races have a "step" in their upgrades. Terran has theirs at armory, protoss at twilight council and zerg at hive. The thing is that the step zerg has to take is a lot more expensive and takes a lot longer.
If the game reaches the T3 stage Zerg should have the highest economy and since they have the fewest number of buildings to construct it is only fair that their T3 upgrade costs a little more.
Key word is should. Yet sad story is that only T3 thing in modern TvZ are 3-3 upgrades (and anyway, i refuse to admit, that 3-3 upgrades for terran is T3 tech, it is T2 tech anyway :S) and when zerg finally gets his T3 at that infamous 'tip-top' level, his economy at best is even with T's.
On August 20 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I saw an interesting comment on Reddit. What if 3/3 upgrades for zerg didn't require hive tech? It would address the big problem in ZvT which is terran getting to 3/3 a lot faster and then trading too well. And I don't think it would break PvZ since protoss has chronoboost available anyway and zerg gets their hive up faster against protoss anyway so the timing of their 3/3 upgrades wouldn't be all that different.
It's an incredibly ugly fix to make 3/3 no longer tied to the t3 building. Now there will be games where zerg can go for mutaling and they never need to transition away from it because they don't need to invest into infestation pit + hive. Maybe it will work just to fix the current ZvT, but what if the metagame changes? (I know that terran already works this way, but it leads to problems doesn't it?)
Well, all the races have a "step" in their upgrades. Terran has theirs at armory, protoss at twilight council and zerg at hive. The thing is that the step zerg has to take is a lot more expensive and takes a lot longer.
If the game reaches the T3 stage Zerg should have the highest economy and since they have the fewest number of buildings to construct it is only fair that their T3 upgrade costs a little more.
Compare sniping a hatchery and killing a CC. Then consider mules. "Should" zerg really have a better economy?
Maybe one issue is that zerg players commit to only one path in lair tech and then everything else they want requires hive tech. As a result the distance between lair and hive tech starts to seem unsurmountable. Instead of reducing this distance (quicker/cheaper hive tech) you could also add more meaningful stops along the way, either by adding more synergy between lair units or by downgrading some hive upgrades to lair. Yet another option is to slow down terran/protoss.
Keep in mind that zerg players used to not get hive in 2011 and it was seen as a problem.
The Overseer buff should help Zerg players to detect widow mines before their whole muta stack gets blown to smithereens. Scouting with upgraded Overseers should also now be easier, although Zerg scouting that late in the game will not do much to help create a counter to whatever the Terran player is doing.
On August 20 2013 20:15 Grumbels wrote: Maybe one issue is that zerg players commit to only one path in lair tech and then everything else they want requires hive tech. As a result the distance between lair and hive tech starts to seem unsurmountable. Instead of reducing this distance (quicker/cheaper hive tech) you could also add more meaningful stops along the way, either by adding more synergy between lair units or by downgrading some hive upgrades to lair. Yet another option is to slow down terran/protoss.
Well, as far as i know there are only 3 real tech paths in lair tech: 1st one is hydra den and swarm hosts. Should i comment on it? 2nd one is muta with possible follow-up at hive tech. 3rd one is infestors with possible follow-up in form of hive tech. Also, there are only +3 upgrades, ultralisk armor (that is pointless at lair tech, as you cannot have cavern at lair tech lol) and adrenal glands (that are GOOOOD, but not 3-3 level good, cause **** zergling DPS nerf between BW and SC2). So only real synergy you can add is synergy either between hydraling (that is used in ZvP as pre-muta-transition pressure AFAIK), hydraroach (nuff said), muta /corruptor + something(muta ling bane and hydraroach corruptor are already in place) and infestor + something (infestor + infestor... oh the good times :D). And since nowadays infestors do not stop drops, hydras do not catch 'em and corruptors... well, don't catch 'em either. Only reliable lair tech in TvZ looks to be muta tech. Option of slowing down terran and/or protoss is even uglier, than speeding up Hive tech for zerg IMO (though i remember level 2 upgrades for terran requiring those Science Facilities :D).
I like how whatever they buff to fight mmmm, mech suffers the most. About tvz with mmmm based, it mostly depends on the zerg being able to break the biowreckingball to be able to tech out of lair in a good spot, not having better units on lategame imho.
the problem with ZvT imo isnt the lategame, if zerg can take the game into the later stages, sitting comfy on 4 or 5 bases, its usually fine but more so the problem is to get there. Right now unless you want to rush hive tech (incredibly risky) you need anti air to deal with the medivacs, unfortunately mutalisks are the only thing that cuts it (or corruptors if you play a very defensive style like yugioh) which means that hive tech and 3-3 will be delayed a LOT if you want to play it somewhat safe.
With this buff to the ships upgrade, will we see at least one Battle Cruiser in that game ? They became even rarer that the Carrier. Anyways... Overseer buff is good, mech upgrades - meh, don't care. 10% more HP on the ultra is... Rather insignificant. Maybe it will be good vs protoss(they will tank like 2 more shots from immortal LOL) and will make them even more godlike vs marines, marauders still don't care. This buff is like saying "This is what you build in hive tech, because we told you so !!!". The change to the Viper was much more fun... Well I don't blame them for stepping back from it, "the community" was about to kill them.
EDIT: If they want to buff Ultras, bring back the Burrow charge. It was the funniest ability I've ever used and actually is a proper counter to the "Protoss deathball". I mean yeah, bring back the fun stuff.
The discussion about upgrades cost and tier is pointless, because mules/injects/chronoboost make it way too complex to compare. Zergs spend way less ressources on buildings, but is it balanced because of less cost effective units or more expensive upgrades? Should protoss upgrades take longer to research because of chronoboost? Or should their upgrades cost more? etc.. To me that's what make the game so hard to balance, and really breaks it. Injects/chrono/mules introduce too many variables, you can't just compare terran and zerg upgrades like that. It doesn't take 2+mn for zerg's 3rd base production to come online, nor does it costs 800/200 or so. On the other end hive is expensive, and it's hard to get it while mid game agression is going on. But one lucky bane hit can change everything, as can one mine hit... I also disagree with the balance choices that are made, but I also disagree that making those choices is easy. As much as infestors were blatantly broken in WoL, HOTS TvZ is a whole different thing.
On August 20 2013 20:25 Pr0wler wrote: With this buff to the ships upgrade, will we see at least one Battle Cruiser in that game ? They became even rarer that the Carrier. Anyways...
Why does not anyone ever thinks, that this is buff to lategame hellbats (that are pretty good, surprise!). Guess what, now since upgrades for vikings and hellbats are the same and at some point you will end up upgrading vikings (because you know, 3-3-3 collosi are pretty tanky against 0-0-0 vikings, no matter the bonus) you will also upgrade hellbats to deal with those 20 zealot after-battle warp-ins i remember some terrans complaining about.
Yeah, standard TvP will be affected the most by this. ForGG vs HerO from ATC is a good example of hellbats being effective. ForGG pretty much makes them in all of his TvPs and I've seen Supernova do it too.
A lot of people are saying Ultralisks are not weak against Terran but I kind of see the opposite in tournaments. I agree Ultralisks are strong in open field with infestors support but it is a very immobile composition that makes Zerg vulnerable to 3/3 drop. Late game Zerg have to manage 4-5 bases to support such a gas heavy army and depends on map new bases are further spread which makes it even harder to defend with Ultra/infestors.
It is a very strong composition to push back Terran, gain map control and catch a breath, but it is still a defensive composition and doesn't let you end the game. What happens when you attack into Terran's bases with this composition? The Ultra just get blocked by AI pathing and sim-city and PF without doing much. Terran can lift the CC if needed and spam mules on the other side of the map, knowing it is safe from your army, while dropping 3/3 MM on multiple Zerg bases. At this point Terran needs to wait for the marauder production to kick in and then Terran's bases will become a meat grinder to Ultra. There are few options for Zerg at this point if it didn't die from drops already: 1) Broodlords but lose to drop and base race. 2) Go back to ling/bling/muta which really can't end a game. Most Zerg die if the Ultra transition couldn't cripple Terran's productions, which is very hard to do with sim-city and Ultra's pathing. The timing is tight as well.
Having said that I am not sure Ultra buff is the right change. Marauders are strong against Ultra. There is not much you can do about it. The problem for late game Zerg is a lack of viable composition. They are either too immobile, or they are not effective at laying siege. I believe a lot of problems come from Zerg's bad AA and the consequential inability to kill a lifted CC means Zerg can't really hurt Terran's economy with the mule mechanic. If Zerg had more ways to limit Terran's econ they will be able to trade away resources for a bust in late game like Zerg is supposed to.
On August 20 2013 20:22 Godwrath wrote: I like how whatever they buff to fight mmmm, mech suffers the most.
Last time i checked, mech did not really suffer from ultras. Though to be fair, now ultras always win 1v1 against thors, so it has changed i guess.
Better re-check. Ultras do fine against mech nowadays. Hellbats might be tankier than hellions, but that is more than compensated for by the far higher attack of ultras vs light units. Ultras currently are completely viable vs mech. It is just that swarmhosts are a more popular option since they are great vs mech. But with ultras you can always add vipers also, and then also they walk over mech.
On August 20 2013 20:25 Pr0wler wrote: With this buff to the ships upgrade, will we see at least one Battle Cruiser in that game ? They became even rarer that the Carrier. Anyways...
Why does not anyone ever thinks, that this is buff to lategame hellbats (that are pretty good, surprise!). Guess what, now since upgrades for vikings and hellbats are the same and at some point you will end up upgrading vikings (because you know, 3-3-3 collosi are pretty tanky against 0-0-0 vikings, no matter the bonus) you will also upgrade hellbats to deal with those 20 zealot after-battle warp-ins i remember some terrans complaining about.
Hellbats are in front during a fight, they don't survive fights, so also not there for the after-battle warpin.
On August 20 2013 20:22 Godwrath wrote: I like how whatever they buff to fight mmmm, mech suffers the most.
Last time i checked, mech did not really suffer from ultras. Though to be fair, now ultras always win 1v1 against thors, so it has changed i guess.
Better re-check. Ultras done fine against mech nowadays. Hellbats might be tankier than hellions, but that is more than compensated for by the far higher attack of ultras vs light units. Ultras currently are completely viable vs mech. It is just that swarmhosts are a more popular option since they are great vs mech. But with ultras you can always add vipers also, and then also they walk over mech.
Well you are right about ultras looking fine vs mech. But - apart from noone playing mech so it's hard to tell - the main reason against ultras is upgrades. You can't go for a melee focused midgame against it, so you'll always end up on 0-2 or 0-3 ultralisks if you wanted them, compared to 3-3 roach/hydra/swarm hosts. The choice is pretty easy which one to take then.
On August 20 2013 20:22 Godwrath wrote: I like how whatever they buff to fight mmmm, mech suffers the most.
Last time i checked, mech did not really suffer from ultras. Though to be fair, now ultras always win 1v1 against thors, so it has changed i guess.
Better re-check. Ultras done fine against mech nowadays. Hellbats might be tankier than hellions, but that is more than compensated for by the far higher attack of ultras vs light units. Ultras currently are completely viable vs mech. It is just that swarmhosts are a more popular option since they are great vs mech. But with ultras you can always add vipers also, and then also they walk over mech.
On August 20 2013 20:25 Pr0wler wrote: With this buff to the ships upgrade, will we see at least one Battle Cruiser in that game ? They became even rarer that the Carrier. Anyways...
Why does not anyone ever thinks, that this is buff to lategame hellbats (that are pretty good, surprise!). Guess what, now since upgrades for vikings and hellbats are the same and at some point you will end up upgrading vikings (because you know, 3-3-3 collosi are pretty tanky against 0-0-0 vikings, no matter the bonus) you will also upgrade hellbats to deal with those 20 zealot after-battle warp-ins i remember some terrans complaining about.
Hellbats are in front during a fight, they don't survive fights, so also not there for the after-battle warpin.
Last time i have seen ultras against kinda-high-level mech they stucked between buildings and died. Twice. Hellbats may not survive the fight, but they shall deal with after-battle warpin, as long as it is not on other end of map IMO.
Blizzards lack of understanding the issues in TvZ is sad.
Buffing the Ultralisk is unnecessary, useless, and possibly problematic in the future.
They need to give Zerg better defense options while securing a 4th base and transitioning to hive tech, once you GET there, it's already a pretty fair fight.
The best places to look IMO are Roaches, Hydras, and Infestors (for the love of god don't buff fungal though). All three are easily available at that point, and all three are lackluster vs bio-mine, and all 3 would ideally force a more complex solution from Terran (like including Siege Tanks), but whatever, I'm no game designer, I just wish the designers knew wtf they were doing.
overseer buff - will help zerg micro more easier vs mines .. good buff without affecting the other units much
mech attack upgrade buff - theoretically this will help terran transition to mech according to balance team .. but i have no idea whether this is good or bad .. this will certainly help tvp even a little .. but idk how will this affect tvz
ultralisk health buff - i dont think its necessary to have this buff .. though i do see ultralisk melting to 3/3 marauders very quickly from time to time .. so i would understand the buff .. i just dont think it will make a big difference in the late game
On August 20 2013 21:09 Jermstuddog wrote: Blizzards lack of understanding the issues in TvZ is sad.
Buffing the Ultralisk is unnecessary, useless, and possibly problematic in the future.
They need to give Zerg better defense options while securing a 4th base and transitioning to hive tech, once you GET there, it's already a pretty fair fight.
The best places to look IMO are Roaches, Hydras, and Infestors (for the love of god don't buff fungal though). All three are easily available at that point, and all three are lackluster vs bio-mine, and all 3 would ideally force a more complex solution from Terran (like including Siege Tanks), but whatever, I'm no game designer, I just wish the designers knew wtf they were doing.
i agree that lair-tech units can be buffed .. since in the zvt the issue is not the lategame but the lairtech 2/2 zerg not surviving the transition against 2/2 incoming 3/3 bio-mine unlimited push ..
On August 20 2013 21:09 Jermstuddog wrote: Blizzards lack of understanding the issues in TvZ is sad.
Buffing the Ultralisk is unnecessary, useless, and possibly problematic in the future.
They need to give Zerg better defense options while securing a 4th base and transitioning to hive tech, once you GET there, it's already a pretty fair fight.
The best places to look IMO are Roaches, Hydras, and Infestors (for the love of god don't buff fungal though). All three are easily available at that point, and all three are lackluster vs bio-mine, and all 3 would ideally force a more complex solution from Terran (like including Siege Tanks), but whatever, I'm no game designer, I just wish the designers knew wtf they were doing.
Buffing roaches and hydras may have consequences in ZvP :S. And it really looks to me, that they are trying their hardest not to nerf terran and in the same time can't really figure out where the real problem lies (and it is hard, because that upgrade disadvantage coming into late game for zerg is just part of a problem, not the largest one either).
I wonder whether the developers ever thought of decreasing the trigger time of the widow mine as a legitimate nerf. A decreased trigger time would make it easier to suicide units into the mine to prevent more expensive units being hit.
On August 20 2013 21:30 JustPassingBy wrote: I wonder whether the developers ever thought of decreasing the trigger time of the widow mine as a legitimate nerf. A decreased trigger time would make it easier to suicide units into the mine to prevent more expensive units being hit.
I like this, though it seems like such a giant change that I doubt Blizzard would do it.
Give players 1 or 2 range where they can see the mine "popped out" without being able to shoot it, and without being hit by the mine, but once you enter mine range, let the mine fire immediately. Sounds reasonable.
On August 20 2013 21:30 JustPassingBy wrote: I wonder whether the developers ever thought of decreasing the trigger time of the widow mine as a legitimate nerf. A decreased trigger time would make it easier to suicide units into the mine to prevent more expensive units being hit.
They are trying to help zerg by not buffing terran though. They are taking a different approach then what they did in wol which I agree with, why nerf when you can buff instead?
Of course I don't know if the 50 health change will change much in zvt, or maybe it will who knows. I am just glad blizzard realizes that late game tvz is terran favored by quiet a bit right now. 90% of macro zvt's I watch now of days if they are macro games zerg loses if zerg can't kill them with muta/ling/bane. Rare for me to see a late game zerg win in zvt atm.
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Some of the posts in this thread makes my head spin.
That being said, I do agree that the ultra buff may not be quite the right change in tournament play and may have significant ramifications in lower level play. On the latter point, the children in this thread should refrain from blindly whining about the ultra buff's impact on their play. Realize instead that David Kim does not care about you. Balance is only reserved for the highest level in the game.
On August 20 2013 21:09 Jermstuddog wrote: Blizzards lack of understanding the issues in TvZ is sad.
Buffing the Ultralisk is unnecessary, useless, and possibly problematic in the future.
They need to give Zerg better defense options while securing a 4th base and transitioning to hive tech, once you GET there, it's already a pretty fair fight.
The best places to look IMO are Roaches, Hydras, and Infestors (for the love of god don't buff fungal though). All three are easily available at that point, and all three are lackluster vs bio-mine, and all 3 would ideally force a more complex solution from Terran (like including Siege Tanks), but whatever, I'm no game designer, I just wish the designers knew wtf they were doing.
Buffing roaches and hydras may have consequences in ZvP :S. And it really looks to me, that they are trying their hardest not to nerf terran and in the same time can't really figure out where the real problem lies (and it is hard, because that upgrade disadvantage coming into late game for zerg is just part of a problem, not the largest one either).
I doubt they could really do anything with the Roach, but the Hydra I don't see why not. When sitting around theorycrafting on design, I don't see why they couldn't make Grooved Spines a +2 range upgrade. Hydras are pretty terrible in the mid-game stages of all 3 MU, and this wouldn't help ZvZ or ZvP very much, but in ZvT, 7 range hydras would specifically deal with the issue of "not being able to hold a base without losing your whole army". In lategame, Protoss are already dependent on Colossus, Storms, and Void Rays, so 2 out of 3 of those would still crush Hydras, and the 3rd really shouldn't be able to, so again, I see no issue, but hey, who am I to suggest design options.
For the Infestor, the best place to look IMO would be Infested Terrans. They could revert the nerf on hatching HP for one, I never really liked that change (I guess that doesn't really help in ZvT though), more importantly, I would suggest giving the eggs a little more armor. They currently sit at 2 armor, 3 or 4 would allow them to live long enough to set off Widow Mines, and that would really change everything about how ZvT works right now. Having to unburrow/burrow mines every time eggs get thrown would be huge and really not affect anything else anywhere else.
I really don't understand why Blizzard thinks lategame ZvT is the issue. The issue is actually GETTING there, and surviving the onslaught of endless bio/mine pushes and pokes. Once you get ultras and infestors, you're fine. Thing is, you can't transitition into hive/ultras/3/3 upgrades because of the immense gas cost. Without pumping that gas into banelings you're just gonna die before ultras hit the field.
I do like the suggestion someone said, of making 3/3 require only infestation pit. Perhaps zergs can squeeze out some gas for that without the cost and the 100 sec requirement of the hive to be able to push back those endless waves of terran.
I dont see the point in the ultra change, while nice, 50 hp doesnt change the unit in any meaningful way as the issue is the ultra still has to fight on creep or be kitted to death.
The problem is, with the infestor nerfed to the ground, zerg does not have a capable unit to cost effectively deal with clumps of units, or at least postpone the pushes long enough for hive tech to get out. In order for this "issue" to be solved they should of introduced a aoe unit at lair tech instead of a swarm host (ie lurker). Without a cost-effective way to kill off large groups of units, zerg just ends up being killed in a slow, attritious style.
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
On August 20 2013 21:09 Jermstuddog wrote: Blizzards lack of understanding the issues in TvZ is sad.
Buffing the Ultralisk is unnecessary, useless, and possibly problematic in the future.
They need to give Zerg better defense options while securing a 4th base and transitioning to hive tech, once you GET there, it's already a pretty fair fight.
The best places to look IMO are Roaches, Hydras, and Infestors (for the love of god don't buff fungal though). All three are easily available at that point, and all three are lackluster vs bio-mine, and all 3 would ideally force a more complex solution from Terran (like including Siege Tanks), but whatever, I'm no game designer, I just wish the designers knew wtf they were doing.
Buffing roaches and hydras may have consequences in ZvP :S. And it really looks to me, that they are trying their hardest not to nerf terran and in the same time can't really figure out where the real problem lies (and it is hard, because that upgrade disadvantage coming into late game for zerg is just part of a problem, not the largest one either).
I doubt they could really do anything with the Roach, but the Hydra I don't see why not, when sitting around theorycrafting on design, I don't see why they couldn't make Grooved Spines a +2 range upgrade. Hydras are pretty terrible in the mid-game stages of all 3 MU, and this wouldn't help ZvZ or ZvP very much, but in ZvT, 7 range hydras would specifically deal with the issue of "not being able to hold a base without losing your whole army". In lategame, Protoss are already dependent on Colossus, Storms, and Void Rays, so 2 out of 3 of those would still crush Hydras, and the 3rd really shouldn't be able to, so again, I see no issue, but hey, who am I to suggest design options.
For the Infestor, the best place to look IMO would be Infested Terrans. They could revert the nerf on hatching HP for one, I never really liked that change, but more importantly, I would suggest giving the eggs a little more armor. They currently sit at 2 armor, 3 or 4 would allow them to live long enough to set off Widow Mines, and that would really change everything about how ZvT works right now. Having to unburrow/burrow mines every time eggs get thrown would be huge and really not affect anything else anywhere else.
7range hydras could indeed be quite good vs Terran (in theory), as they'd outrange marines/mines by 2, and hydras would become a little better at defending drops. The 2range advantage would be very useful, because right now the Terran always has the range advantage and always gets into the situation where he has that superstrong mine position and can run forward with marines that attack the zerg units, while those can't attack back without running into mines. ling/bling/hydra might be an alternative to ling/bling/muta in the midgame. Lair +2range is probably just too strong vs Protoss, Hive +2range sounds very reasonable in ZvZ and ZvP (Protoss has more than enough time to go Colossus or Templar, ZvZ is a lairgame for the most part anyways). It would at least be worth trying.
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
I think buffing is even worse as a solution. While it might turn out to be fine in Hots, you can't remove/nerf units right out from the box for Lotv and it will only become harder to balance when you add in those new units
I think the change needs to be to banelings personally. I think once terran hits the parade push, the baneling is not microable enough to be effective trading. I don't know how they can do it without making it easier, but there should be some way to micro them better to allow them to do more damage. It is pretty delicate balance though bc the busts would be too good. The only thing that is really making TvZ seem a bit terran favored are the top 10 terran in the world mechanically can just trade way too effectively over and over against a zerg, making it slightly too hard to transition. I don't think helping fungal is the answer, and I don't think buffing an ultralisk is the answer, because its not the actual late game army that sucks, its getting to that army.
On August 20 2013 21:09 Jermstuddog wrote: Blizzards lack of understanding the issues in TvZ is sad.
Buffing the Ultralisk is unnecessary, useless, and possibly problematic in the future.
They need to give Zerg better defense options while securing a 4th base and transitioning to hive tech, once you GET there, it's already a pretty fair fight.
The best places to look IMO are Roaches, Hydras, and Infestors (for the love of god don't buff fungal though). All three are easily available at that point, and all three are lackluster vs bio-mine, and all 3 would ideally force a more complex solution from Terran (like including Siege Tanks), but whatever, I'm no game designer, I just wish the designers knew wtf they were doing.
Buffing roaches and hydras may have consequences in ZvP :S. And it really looks to me, that they are trying their hardest not to nerf terran and in the same time can't really figure out where the real problem lies (and it is hard, because that upgrade disadvantage coming into late game for zerg is just part of a problem, not the largest one either).
I doubt they could really do anything with the Roach, but the Hydra I don't see why not, when sitting around theorycrafting on design, I don't see why they couldn't make Grooved Spines a +2 range upgrade. Hydras are pretty terrible in the mid-game stages of all 3 MU, and this wouldn't help ZvZ or ZvP very much, but in ZvT, 7 range hydras would specifically deal with the issue of "not being able to hold a base without losing your whole army". In lategame, Protoss are already dependent on Colossus, Storms, and Void Rays, so 2 out of 3 of those would still crush Hydras, and the 3rd really shouldn't be able to, so again, I see no issue, but hey, who am I to suggest design options.
For the Infestor, the best place to look IMO would be Infested Terrans. They could revert the nerf on hatching HP for one, I never really liked that change, but more importantly, I would suggest giving the eggs a little more armor. They currently sit at 2 armor, 3 or 4 would allow them to live long enough to set off Widow Mines, and that would really change everything about how ZvT works right now. Having to unburrow/burrow mines every time eggs get thrown would be huge and really not affect anything else anywhere else.
7range hydras could indeed be quite good vs Terran (in theory), as they'd outrange marines/mines by 2, and hydras would become a little better at defending drops. The 2range advantage would be very useful, because right now the Terran always has the range advantage and always gets into the situation where he has that superstrong mine position and can run forward with marines that attack the zerg units, while those can't attack back without running into mines. ling/bling/hydra might be an alternative to ling/bling/muta in the midgame. Lair +2range is probably just too strong vs Protoss, Hive +2range sounds very reasonable in ZvZ and ZvP (Protoss has more than enough time to go Colossus or Templar, ZvZ is a lairgame for the most part anyways). It would at least be worth trying.
I don't disagree with you that 7 range might possibly be a bit too strong vs Protoss (currently, I think 6 range Hydras are a bit too week at that very same timing but that's just whining about balance now), it's still a far better change than +50 ultra hp to be trying in a test map IMO.
Where the hell is Blizzard getting this shit from?
On August 20 2013 20:30 DarkLordOlli wrote: Yeah, standard TvP will be affected the most by this. ForGG vs HerO from ATC is a good example of hellbats being effective.
Nope, ForGG vs HerO is an example of how Hellbats/Marauders only win thanks to a huge eco advantage (eco graph of the ATC game; HerO lost his third in the midgame), precisely because it's not effective. ForGG vs sOs in the WCS Finals season 1 followed the exact same pattern. Hellbats aren't useful in lategame TvP and having them deal +3, 6 or 9 damage to Zealots won't change that. I have absolutely no idea why Blizzard talks about a "Hellbat transition" by lategame.
On August 20 2013 21:57 Jermstuddog wrote: I doubt they could really do anything with the Roach, but the Hydra I don't see why not. When sitting around theorycrafting on design, I don't see why they couldn't make Grooved Spines a +2 range upgrade.
Maybe because it would break the game? Just see how much better Immortals got with their +1 range...
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
On August 20 2013 20:30 DarkLordOlli wrote: Yeah, standard TvP will be affected the most by this. ForGG vs HerO from ATC is a good example of hellbats being effective.
Nope, ForGG vs HerO is an example of how Hellbats/Marauders only win thanks to a huge eco advantage (eco graph of the ATC game; HerO lost his third in the midgame), precisely because it's not effective. ForGG vs sOs in the WCS Finals season 1 followed the exact same pattern. Hellbats aren't useful in lategame TvP and having them deal +3, 6 or 9 damage to Zealots won't change that. I have absolutely no idea why Blizzard talks about a "Hellbat transition" by lategame.
On August 20 2013 21:57 Jermstuddog wrote: I doubt they could really do anything with the Roach, but the Hydra I don't see why not. When sitting around theorycrafting on design, I don't see why they couldn't make Grooved Spines a +2 range upgrade.
Maybe because it would break the game? Just see how much better Immortals got with their +1 range...
Because they aren't actually watching pros play and are instead balancing based on what pros "should" be doing, pretty much the worst possible thing they could be doing from the design perspective.
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
well 50hp to ultras wont mean T is on a huge timer. even in the small amount of games where Z manages to get to hive on equal footing with T its not like suddenly Z has a huge advantage since having supply heavy ultras means you have much less mutas so drops with 3 3 rauders are more of an issue. in that equal scenarios its more like: fight oncreep Z wins, fight offcreep T wins so at that stage a lot is about securing more bases, spreading/denying creep and taking good fights which wont change with a small 50hp buff to ultras. the small ultrabuff helps them to stay alive a bit longer which is nice for ZvT and ZvP but not gamechanging.
agree that lairtech Z is still in a horrible spot, especially in ZvT. hydras are outright bad in all MUs except in small all in timing windows and nowhere from the core unit blizz wanted them to make. like they are so far away from being a core unit. 6 base range + a hivetech upgrade that gives them +2 range vs air or 20 more hp or whatever would be a way to make them more viable in each MU. but really hope they just rework them to a 1 supply unit in LotV.
main problem imo that non-muta comps have is that they are bad vs harrassment AND bad harrassing themselves since ovidrop, nydus and burrowmovement all suck AND they are not even that good in a direct engagement. so blizz needs to either buff stuff like roach hydra in direct engagements...or which would be much more awesome: buff nydus, ovidrop and burrow movement so you can do something to interrupt the 3 base rally and finally harrass T.
On August 20 2013 20:30 DarkLordOlli wrote: Yeah, standard TvP will be affected the most by this. ForGG vs HerO from ATC is a good example of hellbats being effective.
Nope, ForGG vs HerO is an example of how Hellbats/Marauders only win thanks to a huge eco advantage (eco graph of the ATC game; HerO lost his third in the midgame), precisely because it's not effective. ForGG vs sOs in the WCS Finals season 1 followed the exact same pattern. Hellbats aren't useful in lategame TvP and having them deal +3, 6 or 9 damage to Zealots won't change that. I have absolutely no idea why Blizzard talks about a "Hellbat transition" by lategame.
On August 20 2013 21:57 Jermstuddog wrote: I doubt they could really do anything with the Roach, but the Hydra I don't see why not. When sitting around theorycrafting on design, I don't see why they couldn't make Grooved Spines a +2 range upgrade.
Maybe because it would break the game? Just see how much better Immortals got with their +1 range...
Because they aren't actually watching pros play and are instead balancing based on what pros "should" be doing, pretty much the worst possible thing they could be doing from the design perspective.
*Remembers ghost nerf*, Nah, they better be not touching what pros are doing.
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
On August 20 2013 20:30 DarkLordOlli wrote: Yeah, standard TvP will be affected the most by this. ForGG vs HerO from ATC is a good example of hellbats being effective.
Nope, ForGG vs HerO is an example of how Hellbats/Marauders only win thanks to a huge eco advantage (eco graph of the ATC game; HerO lost his third in the midgame), precisely because it's not effective. ForGG vs sOs in the WCS Finals season 1 followed the exact same pattern. Hellbats aren't useful in lategame TvP and having them deal +3, 6 or 9 damage to Zealots won't change that. I have absolutely no idea why Blizzard talks about a "Hellbat transition" by lategame.
May i rephrase? Hellbats/Marauders only win against their direct counter(don't you dare to say me archons do not counter hellbats and marauders) thanks to a huge eco advantage.
Making the hydra bit more viable would def be great for the game I think. It is an iconic unit that is rarely used and holds no real place in the game in it's current form because generally you'd rather have roaches. I think if you made both hydra upgrade cheaper and faster and gave the spines an extra +1 all the sudden you'd have a unique glass cannon unit that would be used more defensively than anything. Much better than buffing ultras, what they don't get is that it isn't ultras that are the problem, it is getting to the ultras.
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
I can tell you right now, without even opening SC2, buffing a Hive tech unit doesn't help ZvT when the issue is the fact that Zerg can't secure the 4th base they need to safely transition to Hive.
Blizzard is acting like lategame is an issue in ZvT, it's not. It's the specific timing where Zerg has to take 4 bases to keep up with the massive production capabilities of a 3 base Terran. Drops, infinite rally with mines, and 3/3 bio are simply too much to handle at that point, even for the best professional Zerg players.
They keep trying to force Zerg into an earlier Hive, when that doesn't solve the issue, it probably even makes it worse because now they've gone a step further and tried to push Hive + Ultra Cavern as their new solution which is even more taxing on resources and delays the saving tech by another 80 seconds compared to their Viper solution. I'm sure that extra time will not be an issue...
Zerg needs no buff at all. Zerg players just need to adapt, like blizzard said to terrans for 3 whole years of nerfs.
They can give ultralisk 120000hp buff as bad as their micro is but the whole concept of an rts is that amoving units should not gonna grant you wins, period.
I've read pages and pages full of theories about cost effectivness of mines, without one single word about the friendly fire they manage to do. Zerg with proper micro (so i refer only to 2-3 players in the world) can definitely make mines deadly for the terran too. The problem is that AMOVING should be neglected at every stage of the game: buffing ultralisk is just plain wrong. Zerg just has to improve.
I know it takes longer than infestor buff or BL/infestor alone but it's pretty fun to get better without any patch. Actually even zerg user should enjoy this experience for the first time in 4 years.
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
On August 20 2013 22:27 Stilgorn wrote: Zerg needs no buff at all. Zerg players just need to adapt, like blizzard said to terrans for 3 whole years of nerfs.
They can give ultralisk 120000hp buff as bad as their micro is but the whole concept of an rts is that amoving units should not gonna grant you wins, period.
I've read pages and pages full of theories about cost effectivness of mines, without one single word about the friendly fire they manage to do. Zerg with proper micro (so i refer only to 2-3 players in the world) can definitely make mines deadly for the terran too. The problem is that AMOVING should be neglected at every stage of the game: buffing ultralisk is just plain wrong. Zerg just has to improve.
I know it takes longer than infestor buff or BL/infestor alone but it's pretty fun to get better without any patch. Actually even zerg user should enjoy this experience for the first time in 4 years.
What I never understood is zergs claiming hydras are useless. Already in WoL they did it, while in WoL it wasn't that often used, it was an important part of ZvZ. Now in HotS they still claim hydra is useless and never used, while it is still often used in ZvZ, and aditionally also in ZvP. Also in ZvT vs mech builds it works fine. So I don't see how buffing the hydra to be also good vs bio wouldn't break the other situations.
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
On August 20 2013 22:31 Sissors wrote: What I never understood is zergs claiming hydras are useless. Already in WoL they did it, while in WoL it wasn't that often used, it was an important part of ZvZ. Now in HotS they still claim hydra is useless and never used, while it is still often used in ZvZ, and aditionally also in ZvP. Also in ZvT vs mech builds it works fine. So I don't see how buffing the hydra to be also good vs bio wouldn't break the other situations.
hydras are only used in ZvZ now that spores do insane damage to mutas. thats not because hydras are suddenly good. ZvT they are horrible vs bio and how are hydras good vs mech? BC, abduct and SHs are good vs mech...hydras just happen to support that a bit but basically roaches do the same job. its not hydras that make unit comps like SH, hydra viper good vs mech, its SHs and viper. and ZvP...there is ling + some hydras into mutas or roach hydra viper all in. thats it. hydras in macro compositions lategame vs storm, HTs and even mass voids? not really seen that often although they are used mostly in ZvP. slightly buffing hydras will in no way make them too strong.
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
Logic mode engaged: no matter what blizzard do, there will always be complaints that they either: A. screwed up terran with mention of queen patch. B. did not fix the issue with mention of game, that was lost by zerg from the very beginning (ala failed roach bane all-in teeheehee).
On August 20 2013 22:31 Sissors wrote: What I never understood is zergs claiming hydras are useless. Already in WoL they did it, while in WoL it wasn't that often used, it was an important part of ZvZ. Now in HotS they still claim hydra is useless and never used, while it is still often used in ZvZ, and aditionally also in ZvP. Also in ZvT vs mech builds it works fine. So I don't see how buffing the hydra to be also good vs bio wouldn't break the other situations.
In ZvT vs mech builds everything works, as long as it either flies either has vipers with it :D. Point is that against bio builds hydra is trash to put it blunt in macro game (not as part of 2-2 timing for example).
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
On August 20 2013 22:31 Sissors wrote: What I never understood is zergs claiming hydras are useless. Already in WoL they did it, while in WoL it wasn't that often used, it was an important part of ZvZ. Now in HotS they still claim hydra is useless and never used, while it is still often used in ZvZ, and aditionally also in ZvP. Also in ZvT vs mech builds it works fine. So I don't see how buffing the hydra to be also good vs bio wouldn't break the other situations.
In ZvT vs mech builds everything works, as long as it either flies either has vipers with it :D. Point is that against bio builds hydra is trash to put it blunt in macro game (not as part of 2-2 timing for example).
Why should every unit always be viable in a macro game? I think hydras are ok atm tbh.
I only like the overseer change here, I think the combined armor upgrade for air and mech is enough and it feels a lot more unique and interesting the way it is.
The Ultralisk heath increase? Where did that come from.. is there really anyone complaining that ultras die to fast? With transfuse the ultras are already being compared to Hero units. And yeah if you run an ultra pack into mass marauder without any back up they die but they are meant to die to that. However Ultras like all t3 units should not be to strong on their own but make an army much more powerful when they are apart of it. Try sending in pure colossi vs marines and see how you do, the unit they are suppose to counter crush them.
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game?
A unit that is used awfully much for a supposedly bad unit.
finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement?
Are ovidrops bad, or are they not useful in the metagame? I have now in plenty of failed attempts to mech vs zerg seen the strength of ovidrops. Imagine you are at 200/200, with your army somewhere halfway on the map. And now your opponent spends 16 supply on a drop, while also doing an assault on your army. If your opponent is terran that means 12 marines in your base, for a toss it is 7 zealots (both assuming they even come through your turret ring, which isn't that likely tbh). Now zerg does the same, with a bunch of ovis to soak up shots of turrets added. Congratulations, you now have 32 cracklings running around your base while your army is in the middle of the map.
You can buff nydus, but only if you completely rework it to be less effective at the same time. I still don't think it is a bad idea to introduce different types of nydus worms, but just buffing the current one for its assault role is imo very bad. It gives a direct path between zerg base and your main. If that has a good chance of being established it is simply OP.
Burrow movement is not popular currently, but that is also partly due to metagame. Vs mech it is way more useful than vs bio. And it is for example much harder to spot than cloaked units. Regarding burrow, I also never understood why zergs aren't much more active with using burrowed banelings vs bio. The few pros who use them often burrow them in fairly bad spots tbh. Where a normal creep clearing scan / scan to see where zerg army is hanging out already spots them. Start by burrowing them pretty much outside the natural of the terran and he has to spend a fortune on scans or get a quick raven.
On August 20 2013 22:31 Sissors wrote: What I never understood is zergs claiming hydras are useless. Already in WoL they did it, while in WoL it wasn't that often used, it was an important part of ZvZ. Now in HotS they still claim hydra is useless and never used, while it is still often used in ZvZ, and aditionally also in ZvP. Also in ZvT vs mech builds it works fine. So I don't see how buffing the hydra to be also good vs bio wouldn't break the other situations.
In ZvT vs mech builds everything works, as long as it either flies either has vipers with it :D. Point is that against bio builds hydra is trash to put it blunt in macro game (not as part of 2-2 timing for example).
Not denying that, however: 1. Zergs/toss complain terran mainly use tier 1 units, you will not decrease that by further nerfing mech. 2. They are also often used vs zergs and toss. Especially the idea of giving it +2 range with its upgrade will have only limitted effect vs terran. (It is not like you are going to kite bio, and it also wasn't like bio could kite hydras), but it will have huge effect vs toss all-ins. They completely rely on forcefields, and one more range then for hydras will have a huge effect on their effectiveness.
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful?
NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU.
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
no, no need to buff all of it, i just meant all of it should be fixed in LotV. but 1-2 things like faster ovispeed to make drops more viable and unload nydus faster + slightly stronger hydras is small adjustments that can be implemented right now.
as for figuring out timings...maybe yes, maybe no. the thing is that bio mine is in no way an all in. even in the games Z pushes T back, T just also gets a 4th, has 3 3 on the way and is in an even spot.
also there are timings that just cant be figured out: 1 1 1 is one example that wasnt figured out for months until immo +1 range buff, sentry immortal in WoL was never figured out and held P at 50% winrate, 2 rax in TvZ is still strong etc. some timings will stay strong or even OP if figured out without balance patches. and i like that blizz approach is to buff stuff so even if they mess up right now with overbuffing things...they buff the other race to compensate which will give all races stronger units/mechanics etc. in the end and make for more fun games.
Until Mech is somewhat viable in all matchups there is not much point talking about balance.
Give Tanks higher damage OR bonus damage vs shields. Then Terran actually gets a strategic choice, plus it would be more intresting for the opponents as well since they would not have to play against MMM every single game.
After Tanks have become useful and the backbone of viable Mech, then look at balance against and see what needs to be adjusted.
On August 20 2013 22:27 Stilgorn wrote: Zerg needs no buff at all. Zerg players just need to adapt, like blizzard said to terrans for 3 whole years of nerfs.
They can give ultralisk 120000hp buff as bad as their micro is but the whole concept of an rts is that amoving units should not gonna grant you wins, period.
I've read pages and pages full of theories about cost effectivness of mines, without one single word about the friendly fire they manage to do. Zerg with proper micro (so i refer only to 2-3 players in the world) can definitely make mines deadly for the terran too. The problem is that AMOVING should be neglected at every stage of the game: buffing ultralisk is just plain wrong. Zerg just has to improve.
I know it takes longer than infestor buff or BL/infestor alone but it's pretty fun to get better without any patch. Actually even zerg user should enjoy this experience for the first time in 4 years.
Your last sentence confuses me. Are you saying that Zerg has been OP for the last 4 years?
On August 20 2013 20:30 DarkLordOlli wrote: Yeah, standard TvP will be affected the most by this. ForGG vs HerO from ATC is a good example of hellbats being effective.
Nope, ForGG vs HerO is an example of how Hellbats/Marauders only win thanks to a huge eco advantage (eco graph of the ATC game; HerO lost his third in the midgame), precisely because it's not effective. ForGG vs sOs in the WCS Finals season 1 followed the exact same pattern. Hellbats aren't useful in lategame TvP and having them deal +3, 6 or 9 damage to Zealots won't change that. I have absolutely no idea why Blizzard talks about a "Hellbat transition" by lategame.
On August 20 2013 21:57 Jermstuddog wrote: I doubt they could really do anything with the Roach, but the Hydra I don't see why not. When sitting around theorycrafting on design, I don't see why they couldn't make Grooved Spines a +2 range upgrade.
Maybe because it would break the game? Just see how much better Immortals got with their +1 range...
Yes HerO lost the third midgame but ForGG was already incorporating hellbats before that happened. HerO and ForGG also played a game on Whirlwind that didn't play out like this with ForGG going MMM+Hellbats. Granted HerO looked weak all tournament long at the WCS Finals but that doesn't mean that ForGG's style doesn't work. In fact, both HerO and sOs had trouble holding their third because of hellbats in the mix. ForGG was suddenly up by 60 supply against a single forge colossus build and it's not because HerO was too greedy or because he skipped units for tech. It's plain and simple - ForGG made hellbats, his supply skyrockets and he simply overwhelms players who take their third at a standard timing.
So at the very least you delay a protoss third with that style and you're safer against 2base all ins. I'd say that's pretty viable.
Armory Vehicle and Ship Weapon upgrades have been combined into just one upgrade.
That's kinda stupid for TvT. You'd be forced to play Mech because a lategame transition bio -> air ist not gonna be possible vs a mech player with already full upgrades. For TvP I'd like this change, because you upgrade Hellbats/Vikings at once and it would make it easier to deal with mass zealots. But still, disapprove.
Zerg
Overseer The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade now increases Overseer movement speed from 1.88 to 3.375 (previously 1.88 to 2.75.)
I really like this change. Could be useful for TvZ, but might also not change anything. Approve. Ultralisk Health increased from 500 to 550.
My first impression was like "Srsly?" haha. Do not like the idea, Ultralisks dont seem weak at all, wrong place to buff imo. Disapprove.
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful?
NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU.
I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out.
On August 20 2013 13:28 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I still feel like they're greatly missing the mark. It's more that it's hard to even comfortably transition into Hive tech given the relentless aggression from bio/mine play.
Ultras are already beastly if you can get to them. +50 hp is a pretty lazy buff as well.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game?
A unit that is used awfully much for a supposedly bad unit.
finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement?
Are ovidrops bad, or are they not useful in the metagame? I have now in plenty of failed attempts to mech vs zerg seen the strength of ovidrops. Imagine you are at 200/200, with your army somewhere halfway on the map. And now your opponent spends 16 supply on a drop, while also doing an assault on your army. If your opponent is terran that means 12 marines in your base, for a toss it is 7 zealots (both assuming they even come through your turret ring, which isn't that likely tbh). Now zerg does the same, with a bunch of ovis to soak up shots of turrets added. Congratulations, you now have 32 cracklings running around your base while your army is in the middle of the map.
You can buff nydus, but only if you completely rework it to be less effective at the same time. I still don't think it is a bad idea to introduce different types of nydus worms, but just buffing the current one for its assault role is imo very bad. It gives a direct path between zerg base and your main. If that has a good chance of being established it is simply OP.
Burrow movement is not popular currently, but that is also partly due to metagame. Vs mech it is way more useful than vs bio. And it is for example much harder to spot than cloaked units. Regarding burrow, I also never understood why zergs aren't much more active with using burrowed banelings vs bio. The few pros who use them often burrow them in fairly bad spots tbh. Where a normal creep clearing scan / scan to see where zerg army is hanging out already spots them. Start by burrowing them pretty much outside the natural of the terran and he has to spend a fortune on scans or get a quick raven.
On August 20 2013 22:31 Sissors wrote: What I never understood is zergs claiming hydras are useless. Already in WoL they did it, while in WoL it wasn't that often used, it was an important part of ZvZ. Now in HotS they still claim hydra is useless and never used, while it is still often used in ZvZ, and aditionally also in ZvP. Also in ZvT vs mech builds it works fine. So I don't see how buffing the hydra to be also good vs bio wouldn't break the other situations.
In ZvT vs mech builds everything works, as long as it either flies either has vipers with it :D. Point is that against bio builds hydra is trash to put it blunt in macro game (not as part of 2-2 timing for example).
Not denying that, however: 1. Zergs/toss complain terran mainly use tier 1 units, you will not decrease that by further nerfing mech. 2. They are also often used vs zergs and toss. Especially the idea of giving it +2 range with its upgrade will have only limitted effect vs terran. (It is not like you are going to kite bio, and it also wasn't like bio could kite hydras), but it will have huge effect vs toss all-ins. They completely rely on forcefields, and one more range then for hydras will have a huge effect on their effectiveness.
as much as i would like it: ovidrops are bad for 4 years, so is nydus, so is burrowmovement. they never were a standard thing in the metagame because all 3 suck. there were some weeks were banedrops was used and even that wasnt the standard metagame. after 4 years and buffing T and P drops since players are able to defend better while keeping ovis at HT speed so even low level players see it miles ahead coming its time to do something to it.
Still think the Zerg changes should occur at Lair tech as everyone is mostly saying. Fighting constant 4M pressure while defending your 4th base makes it very hard to transition into Hive tech. Once Terran has 3-3 its very tough to beat.
There is so much you can do. If they're going to do a test map why not try the changes at Lair?
The main thing to look at is options. Muta/ling/bling is still the best comp. Things you can address:
- Preventing harassment - potential changes: hydra range +2 with upgrade to shoot medivacs, re-verting nerf on neural parasite (no more mothership vs np sillyness), buff to banelings (bigger explosive radius when detonated while burrowed?) to slow pushes, corruptor ability?
- Increased harassment for Zerg - buff to nydus canal to back off Terran, adrenal glands for lings available at infestation pit for better runbys/damage in general, changes to infested terrans to bring back Brofester hitsquads, fungal? (might be risky) changes to the stupid Corruptor, maybe it can do something cool? Buff to contaminate to slow down terran 3-3?
- Tech scaling with Terran - touched on the crackling upgrade above, maybe Hive is unlocked by Spire also, or 3-3 doesn't require Hive? Or faster building time on Hive/pit, etc? Terran needed science facility in BW, now its just Fac/armory (toss also needed templar archives for their next tier upgrades, maybe we can balance all ups at once?!)
There are tons of options that you could try that might not even effect the other matchups that would make the game more diverse. Lategame is fine imo. I've never said HEY i wish my ultra could tank more damage!
On August 20 2013 22:03 Henk wrote: I really don't understand why Blizzard thinks lategame ZvT is the issue. The issue is actually GETTING there, and surviving the onslaught of endless bio/mine pushes and pokes. Once you get ultras and infestors, you're fine. Thing is, you can't transitition into hive/ultras/3/3 upgrades because of the immense gas cost. Without pumping that gas into banelings you're just gonna die before ultras hit the field.
I do like the suggestion someone said, of making 3/3 require only infestation pit. Perhaps zergs can squeeze out some gas for that without the cost and the 100 sec requirement of the hive to be able to push back those endless waves of terran.
They most likely know it and want to keep it that way. It is nice in RTS games if the balance shifts in different stages of the game, mostly done by tech advantages that will get you behind if you go for it. Terran having problems in the early game, but they can make it up in the midgame and grab an advantage for the lategame Zerg that is almost unbeatable. This will change the gameflow multiple times and allows and forces one side to do something and use their current tech advantage.
You saw what happens when people try to equal everything out with the queen patch. RTS lives from tech advantages and the harsh way to get there. Which is the biggest issue when it comes to terran as they only have that in upgrades almost.
The overseer and mech buffs are fine. I don't think they'll radically change anything, but they're tweaks in the right direction that I have no problem with.
However, I disagree with the Ultra buff. Not because I don't think there are any issues with ZvT lategame, but because I think this is a poor way to fix those issues. Buffing Ultras just feels so random. Their reasoning is basically "Zerg lategame is weak in one matchup, Ultras exist in the lategame, therefore buff Ultras", without any further thought put into what other effects it will have, or whether it will even address the issue at hand.
The primary issue with lategame ZvT is that since Zerg players have to get a Pit and a Hive (which they would otherwise have no need for) before they can even start 3/3, whereas Terran have no comparable requirement--even beyond the additional expense, it delays Zerg upgrades in the lategame by a huge margin. This creates a decent window where Terran bio has 3/3 upgrades but the Zerg hasn't even been able to start them yet.
The simplest fix would to make the Spire open up teching to Hive (that is, Z would need to get either a Pit or a Spire before they could build a Hive). This would reduce the time before 3/3 is open to Zerg, and therefore help minimize that 3/3 Terran bio timing window. Since Spires are more expensive than Infestation Pits and have a longer build time, this wouldn't really effect non-Muta oriented builds (because if you aren't going air, its cheaper and faster to just get the pit)---it is strictly a buff to one scenario, when Z has a muta heavy comp in the midgame and is trying to keep up on upgrades in the lategame, i.e. the exact issue at hand in TvZ. But in that situation, it would be helpful. A muta-oriented Zerg wouldn't have to drop 100/100 and wait 50 seconds for an Infestation Pit they don't otherwise need...and since the Overseer buff should make it easier to keep Overseers alive, the money Z saves on overseers and not needing a pit will open up Hive more quickly, reducing the time before Zerg can start grabbing the upgrades they need to keep up with Terran.
Unlike the Ultra buff, this would have minimal impact on other matchups, nor would it radically alter the metagame. It would simply help Zerg have more success playing their current style.
Yeah... I don't think Blizzard understands the game at all. "Let's try a bunch of random buffs and see if it helps!" seems to be their attitude.
Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful?
NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU.
I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out.
It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights:
+5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0 (this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?)
All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken.
That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings?
The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed...
...giving vipers maxed energy isn't balanced, over course. why not the energy for 1 abduct? makes a timing attack only a few seconds quicker, but you can stop attacks a lot more easily.
Vehicle and Ship Weapon upgrades have been combined into just one upgrade. i like it. kindda hard when you play mech Tank/Hellbat an suddenly know Broodlord is coming.
On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote: [quote] Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful?
NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU.
I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out.
It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights:
+5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0 (this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?)
All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken.
That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings?
The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed...
I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months.
Zerg does not need a lategame buff. A baneling infestor ultra army already destroys bio armies, the bigger problem is getting there. The armory buff surely helps mech, but does not adress the main problems that mech has.
On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote: [quote]
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful?
NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU.
I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out.
It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights:
+5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0 (this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?)
All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken.
That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings?
The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed...
I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months.
Great, buff, don't nerf, I get it.
The game has stagnated around 4M timings, Blizzard SHOULD intervene with a balance change here.
They could make Ultras 2000 HP. It changes nothing if the Zerg can never get a 4th base up due to MMM pressure.
I think the problem is that Terran's mineral units trade very cost efficiently against Zerg's gas units. So Marine (no gas) Hellbat (no gas) Mine (very little gas) require counters like Hydras, Infestors, Ultras, etc... (lots of gas). So rather than building a huge force and attacking, like they do vs. Protoss, Terran is incentivized to just trickle in an endless stream of units all game long. Eventually Zerg loses.
Successful Zergs are the ones who are able to defend while denying the Terran his 4th base, so eventually once his main mines out he is back on 2 base and doesn't have the economy to power that endless stream of units.
IMO if they want to help Zerg out a little vs. T, give them something that either helps them trade a little more cost efficiently (GAS wise) or helps them deny Terran econ a little better.
I'm Protoss.. no horse in this race. But the last thing I want is stupid buffs aimed at fixing TvZ that blow up my matchup. I lost to mass queen Ultra yesterday lol, that shit is downright unkillable with any composition. Does not need to be stronger.
And Terran getting free 3/3 on their Battlecruiser transition seems a little bit OP in TvT... really favors the Meching Terran vs the Bio Terran, since we know how 3/3 BCs do against bio....
On August 20 2013 22:07 Plansix wrote: [quote] Blizzard is trying not to nerf the widow mine and trying not to add a buff to zerg that will make it invalid. They always good make blinding cloud effect the widow mine, but that would change the unit from effective to useless the instant blinding cloud comes into play. So they are giving the ultra a boost to see if it can tank the splash damage a little better.
I mean, they could nerf the widow mine into uselessness, but we are beyond the era when we nerf everything that is powerful and fun to use. I would rather see under used units get buffed than units that people are using get nerfed.
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful?
NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU.
I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out.
It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights:
+5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0 (this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?)
All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken.
That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings?
The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed...
You have no idea what you're talking about lol. The Zealot build time was to nerf macro 2 Gate openings in PvZ which wasn't broken at all. The warpgate time nerf was to help PvP which was dominated by 4 Gate at the time, 4 Gate was never an issue vs Zerg, let alone being the 'only' build. Khaydarian Amulet was strong but nowhere near Infestor BL at all in terms of broken-ness.
On August 20 2013 23:12 DinoMight wrote: I'm Protoss.. no horse in this race. But the last thing I want is stupid buffs aimed at fixing TvZ that blow up my matchup. I lost to mass queen Ultra yesterday lol, that shit is downright unkillable with any composition. Does not need to be stronger.
It's almost impossible if the Zerg micros well and you don't use Feedback. One full energy Templar can feedback 4 Queens, so a Warp Prism full of Templar can feedback 16 Queens. If you pull off the feedbacks your Immortals and Void Rays will clean up the Ultras no problem.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful?
NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU.
I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out.
It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights:
+5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0 (this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?)
All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken.
That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings?
The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed...
I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months.
Great, buff, don't nerf, I get it.
The game has stagnated around 4M timings, Blizzard SHOULD intervene with a balance change here.
Make Spire unlock hive. The 3/3 Terran bio timing window in TvZ is drastically reduced, and hardly anything else is seriously effected. Far simpler, and far less clumsy, than buffing Ultra hp.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful?
NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU.
I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out.
It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights:
+5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0 (this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?)
All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken.
That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings?
The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed...
I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months.
Great, buff, don't nerf, I get it.
The game has stagnated around 4M timings, Blizzard SHOULD intervene with a balance change here.
Hots has been out for 5 months and there have been some pretty big shifts in that time. MMMM maybe be really good, but that could change. There is nothing worse for the game than punishing players for getting good with a set of units by nerfing them. The best way to fix the issue is to give the other race a way to respond that is just as powerful.
If they are going to nerf the widow mine, they should just increase it’s burrow time in creep until the drilling claws upgrade is obtained.
On August 20 2013 22:10 Jermstuddog wrote: [quote]
But an ultra buff doesn't address the issue, the vast majority of Terran wins in ZvT are BEFORE Ultras hit currently and all this does is make that timing more desperate and necessary.
The goal should not be to force Terran to win right there every time, it should be to give Zerg adequate defense to hold 4 bases against 4M compositions. Currently, that is severely lacking.
That is why it’s a test map. We don’t know what will fix the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure it out without totally fucking over two other match ups. They throw ideas out there, try them out and see what happens. As much at we think that we have everything figured out, we can’t just theory craft our way to a new patch or fixing the problem. No one in science said that they know the results before hand, so I don’t need to run an experiment.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful?
NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU.
I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out.
It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights:
+5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0 (this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?)
All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken.
That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings?
The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed...
You have no idea what you're talking about lol. The Zealot build time was to nerf macro 2 Gate openings in PvZ which wasn't broken at all. The warpgate time nerf was to help PvP which was dominated by 4 Gate at the time, 4 Gate was never an issue vs Zerg, let alone being the 'only' build. Khaydarian Amulet was strong but nowhere near Infestor BL at all in terms of broken-ness.
On August 20 2013 23:12 DinoMight wrote: I'm Protoss.. no horse in this race. But the last thing I want is stupid buffs aimed at fixing TvZ that blow up my matchup. I lost to mass queen Ultra yesterday lol, that shit is downright unkillable with any composition. Does not need to be stronger.
It's almost impossible if the Zerg micros well and you don't use Feedback. One full energy Templar can feedback 4 Queens, so a Warp Prism full of Templar can feedback 16 Queens. If you pull off the feedbacks your Immortals and Void Rays will clean up the Ultras no problem.
The only difference between Khaydarian Amulet and Infestor/BL is that Blizzard chose to ignore Infestor BL for a year while they worked on HotS. It would have easily been fixable, (hell, look at the infestor now) but they didn't want to address all the other gaping balance holes that the Infestor was filling for Zerg at the time.
On August 20 2013 23:16 Khalimaroth wrote: I'm from the ones who think the issues in TvZ come from the random success of mines hits, very hard to control as a terran or as a zerg.
I think the ultralisk buff is just a way to hide a design trouble by nice balance statistics It's like the general protoss design trouble.
Maybe blizzard should ask to himself others questions than "balance issues".
(sorry for my english)
Terrans can, and should, focus fire with widow mines.
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful?
NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU.
I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out.
It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights:
+5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0 (this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?)
All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken.
That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings?
The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed...
I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months.
Great, buff, don't nerf, I get it.
The game has stagnated around 4M timings, Blizzard SHOULD intervene with a balance change here.
Hots has been out for 5 months and there have been some pretty big shifts in that time. MMMM maybe be really good, but that could change. There is nothing worse for the game than punishing players for getting good with a set of units by nerfing them. The best way to fix the issue is to give the other race a way to respond that is just as powerful.
If they are going to nerf the widow mine, they should just increase it’s burrow time in creep until the drilling claws upgrade is obtained.
Who's talking about nerfs? I have never once suggested nerfing mines, I have even advocated against it.
I am talking about giving options (because, you know, options are a good thing) to the race that is behind in the MU rather than applying yet another band-aid fix and keeping this game on rails.
Too many balance changes coming out of Blizzard throughout the history of SC2 directly support the meta. How about buffing underutilized units and revolutionizing the whole MU to become more flexible?
Thats a pretty weird statement. The problem in ZvT is getting from lair muta ling bane to hive for high tech units and upgrades, the 3-3 window terran has in every game doesnt allow zerg to spend so much gas on tech/upgrades because they will simply die. so how on earth is a buff which doesnt even affect that timing window supposed to help with that?
Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful?
NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU.
I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out.
It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights:
+5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0 (this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?)
All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken.
That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings?
The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed...
I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months.
Great, buff, don't nerf, I get it.
The game has stagnated around 4M timings, Blizzard SHOULD intervene with a balance change here.
Make Spire unlock hive. The 3/3 Terran bio timing window in TvZ is drastically reduced, and hardly anything else is seriously effected. Far simpler, and far less clumsy, than buffing Ultra hp.
Well minus that you allow for faster broodlord switches.
On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote: [quote] Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful?
NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU.
I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out.
It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights:
+5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0 (this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?)
All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken.
That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings?
The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed...
I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months.
Great, buff, don't nerf, I get it.
The game has stagnated around 4M timings, Blizzard SHOULD intervene with a balance change here.
Make Spire unlock hive. The 3/3 Terran bio timing window in TvZ is drastically reduced, and hardly anything else is seriously effected. Far simpler, and far less clumsy, than buffing Ultra hp.
Well minus that you allow for faster broodlord switches.
Broodlord switches aren't exactly a major problem in TvZ now, and they're unlikely to become one with the merging of vehicle and air weapons.
Terran Upgrade I agree with. Those upgrades are expensive. and lets face it you need the air support if you are going mech. Vikings are needed to deal with vipers/broodlords. The ultra change is just....why. Zerg doesn't need help right now.
On August 20 2013 22:59 awesomoecalypse wrote: The overseer and mech buffs are fine. I don't think they'll radically change anything, but they're tweaks in the right direction that I have no problem with.
However, I disagree with the Ultra buff. Not because I don't think there are any issues with ZvT lategame, but because I think this is a poor way to fix those issues. Buffing Ultras just feels so random. Their reasoning is basically "Zerg lategame is weak in one matchup, Ultras exist in the lategame, therefore buff Ultras", without any further thought put into what other effects it will have, or whether it will even address the issue at hand.
The primary issue with lategame ZvT is that since Zerg players have to get a Pit and a Hive (which they would otherwise have no need for) before they can even start 3/3, whereas Terran have no comparable requirement--even beyond the additional expense, it delays Zerg upgrades in the lategame by a huge margin. This creates a decent window where Terran bio has 3/3 upgrades but the Zerg hasn't even been able to start them yet.
The simplest fix would to make the Spire open up teching to Hive (that is, Z would need to get either a Pit or a Spire before they could build a Hive). This would reduce the time before 3/3 is open to Zerg, and therefore help minimize that 3/3 Terran bio timing window. Since Spires are more expensive than Infestation Pits and have a longer build time, this wouldn't really effect non-Muta oriented builds (because if you aren't going air, its cheaper and faster to just get the pit)---it is strictly a buff to one scenario, when Z has a muta heavy comp in the midgame and is trying to keep up on upgrades in the lategame, i.e. the exact issue at hand in TvZ. But in that situation, it would be helpful. A muta-oriented Zerg wouldn't have to drop 100/100 and wait 50 seconds for an Infestation Pit they don't otherwise need...and since the Overseer buff should make it easier to keep Overseers alive, the money Z saves on overseers and not needing a pit will open up Hive more quickly, reducing the time before Zerg can start grabbing the upgrades they need to keep up with Terran.
Unlike the Ultra buff, this would have minimal impact on other matchups, nor would it radically alter the metagame. It would simply help Zerg have more success playing their current style.
I realy like this idea having spire or infest pit give hive tech
On August 20 2013 23:16 Khalimaroth wrote: I'm from the ones who think the issues in TvZ come from the random success of mines hits, very hard to control as a terran or as a zerg.
I think the ultralisk buff is just a way to hide a design trouble by nice balance statistics It's like the general protoss design trouble.
Maybe blizzard should ask to himself others questions than "balance issues".
(sorry for my english)
Terrans can, and should, focus fire with widow mines.
Yes but i didnt talk only about that. I'm talking about control in general, during a fight. Control on the mines from the terran, and control on the hits from the zergs. Even if you can focus fire with mine, or split your lings, its still too random in my point of view.
On August 20 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote: Remove Swarm Hosts, add Lurkers.
Bam.
This, and i think armored units are the bane of both the Lurker and Siege tank (Immortal/Marauder/Collosi,..). What about toning those units down in the expansion... prolly stupid idea
On August 20 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote: Remove Swarm Hosts, add Lurkers.
Bam.
I should just make a list of the stock suggestions that get trotted out literally every time balance is discussed, even though they've been discussed to death and there is a 100% certainty that they'll never happen:
Remove swarm hosts, add lurkers Remove colossi, add reapers Buff tanks Remove forcefield and warp gate, buff gateway units
On August 20 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote: Remove Swarm Hosts, add Lurkers.
Bam.
I'll tip my hat to that. Swarm Hosts are useless. Okay they are usable, but boring and really easy to counter. In a straight up fight they can beat a lot of things equal supply, but nobody will ever fight with you. In ZvZ, swarm host hydra is the ultimate composition.....except they'll just walk around you and kill all your bases by the time you kill 1, or kill you before you have enough swarm host. If you go swarm host in ZvP you're essentially saying 'let's play for an hour and if I defend everything really really well during that hour I'll win.'
Boring unit with almost no uses, which I feel was supposed to help Zerg hold up in the later midgame while they get hive. Now the problem remains, and the solution is an ultra buff, *sigh*
Remove swarm hosts, add lurkers Remove colossi, add reapers Buff tanks Remove forcefield and warp gate, buff gateway units
On August 20 2013 23:22 DinoMight wrote: Remove Swarm Hosts, add Lurkers.
Bam.
This, and i think armored units are the bane of both the Lurker and Siege tank (Immortal/Marauder/Collosi,..). What about toning those units down in the expansion... prolly stupid idea
There is a smart bllog post on lurkers vs swarmhost vs banelings with sc1 and sc2 examples. Search for it in the feauture blog post section
On August 20 2013 22:29 Plansix wrote: [quote] Once again, there is no easy fix that won’t fuck the other match ups and they don’t want to nerf a unit into uselessness like they did in WoL. I mean, they could just buff roach, banelings or hydras and risk totally breaking the game, but I don’t think people want that.
but how is buffing bad units like hydras gonna break the game? or buffing BC vs mobile armies while making it worse vs mech? or after 4 years of being UP finally buffing ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement? they dont need to make drastic changes but these thing need to be adressed in LotV at latest anyway to let Z become a complete race and i really hope blizz goal is to have 3 complete races in LotV (which includes fixes to BC, carrier, snipe, WG, FFs, colossus etc. so also includes fixing P and T).
I think Blizzard is under the impression that Zergs will figure out that widow mine timing on their own. It has happened before and will happen again. Just because one specific timing or push is winning matches does Blizzard should rush to nerf/buff against it.
As for the rest of that stuff, zergs there might be reason to buff some of it, but you don’t all of it at once and totally break the game. That’s a bad plan in general.
So... you're trusting that Blizzard is confident that Zerg can handle the 4M 3/3 timing window, and they see an issue with Lategame ZvT, where Ultralisks, Infestors, and Broodlords are available and plentiful?
NOBODY thinks that Zerg has a hard time in late game ZvT. That's their strongest point in the whole fucking MU.
I have faith in professional players to figure it out, because they are very good at SC2. However, until someone showcases a build that undercuts that 3/3 timing attack, I also expect that the community will complain about it endlessly and demand it be nerfed. Soemtimes they are right(BL/infestor) but sometimes they are not at all. Look at protoss. We complained that it was impossible to take a third with the medivac boost. And then a few months later, we are fine now. The meta is always changing and some unstoppable push will get figured out.
It's like you're willfully ignoring the terrible history of SC2 balance. Let's revisit some of the highlights:
+5 seconds to Zealot build time to reduce the effectiveness of proxy 2-gate builds. Before this, there was only 4 gate and 2 gate, often both. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.0 (this same patch they reduced Battle cruiser damage vs Ground units, but I'm sure you don't remember the days when Protoss had no answer to mass BCs with Yamato 1-shotting Void Rays do you?)
All 3 of those patches include bunker nerfs, because, you know, bunker rushes used to happen in every single ZvT and Blizzard used to refuse to put a lowered depot at the bottom of the main ramp, making ZvT on ladder (and Blizzcon) essentially broken.
That's just a handful of massive balance issues that had no solution and were causing the game to stagnate. Should we talk about the other fun things like Ultralisk splash, ramp vision, blink timings?
The Infestor BL combo is not the only thing that has ever been broken in this game, stop acting like that's the only issue that has ever existed...
I am aware of all of those patches, I have played since launch. That was an era of bad balance decisions based on nerfing units into the ground an listening to the community whine. That is not now and pulling those up does not make your point any stronger. Pros will figure out the 3/3 widow mine timing and we don’t need Blizzard to nerf every single strong build there is just because its wins for a couple of months.
Great, buff, don't nerf, I get it.
The game has stagnated around 4M timings, Blizzard SHOULD intervene with a balance change here.
Hots has been out for 5 months and there have been some pretty big shifts in that time. MMMM maybe be really good, but that could change. There is nothing worse for the game than punishing players for getting good with a set of units by nerfing them. The best way to fix the issue is to give the other race a way to respond that is just as powerful.
If they are going to nerf the widow mine, they should just increase it’s burrow time in creep until the drilling claws upgrade is obtained.
Who's talking about nerfs? I have never once suggested nerfing mines, I have even advocated against it.
I am talking about giving options (because, you know, options are a good thing) to the race that is behind in the MU rather than applying yet another band-aid fix and keeping this game on rails.
Too many balance changes coming out of Blizzard throughout the history of SC2 directly support the meta. How about buffing underutilized units and revolutionizing the whole MU to become more flexible?
The problem is that SC2 players are stubborn and don’t like trying new things. I am all for more units and I will always say that underused units need to be buffed or tweeked. I think siege tanks need a buff, but not to damage. I think it would be cool if you could pick one up while sieged, like a thor. I think Utra’s needed a buff. I also think the oracle needs some love in the control department and the carrier needs some love in the “I take to fucking long to build” department. I think interceptors should be free, but have fewer Hp
But a lot of players just want the style they have been playing to be buffed or made better, rather than be forced to learn something new. You see it every patch, when something gets buffed and the first comment is “won’t help”.
Once again, I am all for subtle changes to fix issues. Making widow mines burrow slower on creep would be a good way to solve the problem of the “endless terran push” without totally fucking the unit.
All ideas that have been discussed ad nauseum thousands of times, and apart from maaybe the tank buff (probably not), all things that are never, ever going to happen. Protoss is not getting a ground up redesign, and SC2 is not going to suddenly bring back a bunch of BW units. Focusing incessantly on those ideas is silly and counterproductive. It inevitably happens in the sort of posts that like to use meaningless buzzwords like "fundamental design problems" or babble on about defender's advantage or the supply cap.
Ultras are preeeeety strong right now IMO. I'm scared of that but at least they didn't start the Viper with full energy. That was even scarier and just ridiculously imba.
Terran ship and weapons upgrades being combined doesn't really affect me a whole lot, because I never play mech when I play as T and I don't have a hard time with mech as P. But I think it'll encourage more mech play which I'm down with.
Overall, I'm liking the changes. The overseer's gonna be fast as all hell though
On August 20 2013 22:59 awesomoecalypse wrote: The overseer and mech buffs are fine. I don't think they'll radically change anything, but they're tweaks in the right direction that I have no problem with.
However, I disagree with the Ultra buff. Not because I don't think there are any issues with ZvT lategame, but because I think this is a poor way to fix those issues. Buffing Ultras just feels so random. Their reasoning is basically "Zerg lategame is weak in one matchup, Ultras exist in the lategame, therefore buff Ultras", without any further thought put into what other effects it will have, or whether it will even address the issue at hand.
The primary issue with lategame ZvT is that since Zerg players have to get a Pit and a Hive (which they would otherwise have no need for) before they can even start 3/3, whereas Terran have no comparable requirement--even beyond the additional expense, it delays Zerg upgrades in the lategame by a huge margin. This creates a decent window where Terran bio has 3/3 upgrades but the Zerg hasn't even been able to start them yet.
The simplest fix would to make the Spire open up teching to Hive (that is, Z would need to get either a Pit or a Spire before they could build a Hive). This would reduce the time before 3/3 is open to Zerg, and therefore help minimize that 3/3 Terran bio timing window. Since Spires are more expensive than Infestation Pits and have a longer build time, this wouldn't really effect non-Muta oriented builds (because if you aren't going air, its cheaper and faster to just get the pit)---it is strictly a buff to one scenario, when Z has a muta heavy comp in the midgame and is trying to keep up on upgrades in the lategame, i.e. the exact issue at hand in TvZ. But in that situation, it would be helpful. A muta-oriented Zerg wouldn't have to drop 100/100 and wait 50 seconds for an Infestation Pit they don't otherwise need...and since the Overseer buff should make it easier to keep Overseers alive, the money Z saves on overseers and not needing a pit will open up Hive more quickly, reducing the time before Zerg can start grabbing the upgrades they need to keep up with Terran.
Unlike the Ultra buff, this would have minimal impact on other matchups, nor would it radically alter the metagame. It would simply help Zerg have more success playing their current style.
I realy like this idea having spire or infest pit give hive tech
Dear God are you high man? Lol.
It's hard enough to scout what composition Z is going for as P when they literally have one of every building... and only lings on the field... now either Spire or Infestation pit could mean fast hive? Or Swarm hosts? Or Muta? How the heck do you react?
I'd say if anything, make Zerg 3/3 not require Hive. Just keep it Lair Tech. The same 2/2 and 3/3 require only armory and twilight for the other races.
All ideas that have been discussed ad nauseum thousands of times, and apart from maaybe the tank buff (probably not), all things that are never, ever going to happen. Protoss is not getting a ground up redesign, and SC2 is not going to suddenly bring back a bunch of BW units. Focusing incessantly on those ideas is silly and counterproductive. It inevitably happens in the sort of posts that like to use meaningless buzzwords like "fundamental design problems" or babble on about defender's advantage or the supply cap.
Oh come on, you forgot the good ones:
Elegant design Positional play Anti mirco abilities(which is all of Dota 2, I might add, abilities in that game hate micro) Skill ceiling
And all the rest. We also need to ask for worse path finding and to select only 12 units at a time.
I would lower the sight range of widow mines slightly, so that they are less effective at getting those "unfair" kills where a zerg army is running by and boom goes 25 ling/bane or a few mutas.
I certainly wouldn't want to see ultras any stronger, because at lower levels, they completely destroy terrans, and at higher levels, I'd say any time zerg is safe getting ultras, they should have the upper hand.
All ideas that have been discussed ad nauseum thousands of times, and apart from maaybe the tank buff (probably not), all things that are never, ever going to happen. Protoss is not getting a ground up redesign, and SC2 is not going to suddenly bring back a bunch of BW units. Focusing incessantly on those ideas is silly and counterproductive. It inevitably happens in the sort of posts that like to use meaningless buzzwords like "fundamental design problems" or babble on about defender's advantage or the supply cap.
Oh come on, you forgot the good ones:
Elegant design Positional play Anti mirco abilities(which is all of Dota 2, I might add, abilities in that game hate micro) Skill ceiling
And all the rest. We also need to ask for worse path finding and to select only 12 units at a time.
I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
I don't know where the idea to buff the Ultralisk came from. Weird. They were already really good and now they can tank that much more. I don't like it.
On August 20 2013 23:38 Ansinjunger wrote: I would lower the sight range of widow mines slightly, so that they are less effective at getting those "unfair" kills where a zerg army is running by and boom goes 25 ling/bane or a few mutas.
I certainly wouldn't want to see ultras any stronger, because at lower levels, they completely destroy terrans, and at higher levels, I'd say any time zerg is safe getting ultras, they should have the upper hand.
Agreed. I think it's silly how stubborn Blizzard is being with the widow mine's effectiveness.
Think of how TvZ was before.. you had to make Tanks - which were expensive and could only be produced one at a time - to counter high numbers of banelings. And if your opponent went Muta they didn't really help.
Now Terran can produce mines two at a time for way less gass than the cost of tanks. They're invisible, deal basically the same damage to banelings, and can shoot up. Granted they only shoot once vs. a tank's ability to shoot multiple times, but as long as they catch the banelings, they've done their job. Mines are also much harder to micro against than tanks, because you don't necessarily know where they are, and they can actually kill your detection.
Meanwhile, what has Zerg gotten to help against this? Faster Hydra movement off creep with an upgrade? Weaker infestors? Ultra buff is nice, but they never get to make Ultras agaisnt this type of play...
Blizz needs to address this part of the game. Give Zerg a more gas cost efficient way to deal with mines.
On August 20 2013 22:59 awesomoecalypse wrote: The overseer and mech buffs are fine. I don't think they'll radically change anything, but they're tweaks in the right direction that I have no problem with.
However, I disagree with the Ultra buff. Not because I don't think there are any issues with ZvT lategame, but because I think this is a poor way to fix those issues. Buffing Ultras just feels so random. Their reasoning is basically "Zerg lategame is weak in one matchup, Ultras exist in the lategame, therefore buff Ultras", without any further thought put into what other effects it will have, or whether it will even address the issue at hand.
The primary issue with lategame ZvT is that since Zerg players have to get a Pit and a Hive (which they would otherwise have no need for) before they can even start 3/3, whereas Terran have no comparable requirement--even beyond the additional expense, it delays Zerg upgrades in the lategame by a huge margin. This creates a decent window where Terran bio has 3/3 upgrades but the Zerg hasn't even been able to start them yet.
The simplest fix would to make the Spire open up teching to Hive (that is, Z would need to get either a Pit or a Spire before they could build a Hive). This would reduce the time before 3/3 is open to Zerg, and therefore help minimize that 3/3 Terran bio timing window. Since Spires are more expensive than Infestation Pits and have a longer build time, this wouldn't really effect non-Muta oriented builds (because if you aren't going air, its cheaper and faster to just get the pit)---it is strictly a buff to one scenario, when Z has a muta heavy comp in the midgame and is trying to keep up on upgrades in the lategame, i.e. the exact issue at hand in TvZ. But in that situation, it would be helpful. A muta-oriented Zerg wouldn't have to drop 100/100 and wait 50 seconds for an Infestation Pit they don't otherwise need...and since the Overseer buff should make it easier to keep Overseers alive, the money Z saves on overseers and not needing a pit will open up Hive more quickly, reducing the time before Zerg can start grabbing the upgrades they need to keep up with Terran.
Unlike the Ultra buff, this would have minimal impact on other matchups, nor would it radically alter the metagame. It would simply help Zerg have more success playing their current style.
I realy like this idea having spire or infest pit give hive tech
Dear God are you high man? Lol.
It's hard enough to scout what composition Z is going for as P when they literally have one of every building... and only lings on the field... now either Spire or Infestation pit could mean fast hive? Or Swarm hosts? Or Muta? How the heck do you react?
I'd say if anything, make Zerg 3/3 not require Hive. Just keep it Lair Tech. The same 2/2 and 3/3 require only armory and twilight for the other races.
LOL sorry I play terran didnt think about it from the protoss point of view! And yes im high :D
On August 20 2013 23:46 MagnuMizer wrote: Nerf mines, dont buff the ultralisk...
They are pretty much useless vs protoss or terran except for some situations and builds. Making them uselss vs zerg would make it so we would only see 1-2 defensive widowmines in some games!
I like the reasonning behind the Ultralisk change. It's pretty crazy that Ultra now have 150 more hitpoint than in BroodWar, but Terran didn't have Marauder back then.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
All ideas that have been discussed ad nauseum thousands of times, and apart from maaybe the tank buff (probably not), all things that are never, ever going to happen. Protoss is not getting a ground up redesign, and SC2 is not going to suddenly bring back a bunch of BW units. Focusing incessantly on those ideas is silly and counterproductive. It inevitably happens in the sort of posts that like to use meaningless buzzwords like "fundamental design problems" or babble on about defender's advantage or the supply cap.
Oh come on, you forgot the good ones:
Elegant design Positional play Anti mirco abilities(which is all of Dota 2, I might add, abilities in that game hate micro) Skill ceiling
And all the rest. We also need to ask for worse path finding and to select only 12 units at a time.
Slow down there son. There is a huge, massive, insanely large difference between SC2 and DotA2 and I'm not even talking about one being an RTS and one being a MoBA. The difference though is that, in DotA 2 yes there are tons upon tons of slows, stuns, disables, roots and what not. However the big huge difference in DotA2 compared to SC2 is that you can counter all of them in some way, either trough playing better or from item and hero selection.
There are some dispels or immunities against stuns, slows and the like, there are items that nullify spells, there are items and abilities to heal an ally unit, or make him invisible or straight up pull him into a better position out of harms way. In SC2 there is absolutely no way to counterplay a root or stun once it goes off. If it goes off it goes off and you get punished for it and people hate that with a passion. By all means give zerg a aoe stun, or make fungal last 8 seconds, hell give it even more damage, I wouldn't give a damn so long as my raven had a researchable spell that gave me a aoe dispel, now I'd actually have some way to directly counter the spell instead of having to worry about playing perfectly and dodging it each and every time.
However SC2 doesn't have that many spells and/or spell interactions compared to DotA2 or (more relevantly) WC3, so there is no need to add immunities and dispels, and I think that's a good thing because that kind of a system works better for games with lower unit counts and more specialization/emphasis on micro, WC3 and DotA both have that.
On topic, zerg's ground 3/3 not requiring Hive might be the one of the single smartest changes I've heard so far in regards to addressing the current meta-game problem in ZvT. Provided it is still friggin hard to get all the gas necessary while trying to not die, but you could now save up a 250 (Infestation Pit and Hive), which is at least 1 of the two important combat upgrades. You'd still want to and need to get to Hive to have access to Adrennal Glands and Ultras, but it wouldn't be such a insane and sudden transition, it would be more gradual and perhaps survivable.
NO ULTRA BUFF. they already dont die, they are the strongest thing zerg has. buff other things, or also nerf damage I play terran, and when a zerg can get to 3-5 ultras with a surounding army. thats when the game gets reallllllly hard. Once people start making like 4 infestors along with everthing it will be seen how good they are. bling ultra fungal is really good. I normaly think buffing is better than nerfing, but in terms of this, i think a mine nerf would be better.
i hope the ultra buff to pass . i find it interesting . for ppl complaining is too much lol is like 2 shots from marauder or 1 shot from immortal . wont be game breaking seriously is more like 1 second more lasting . with how slow the ultra's hits it probably wont even grant an extra attack .
actually, i would appreciate it if nobody would play the testmap to send a message to blizzard. to make them really think about relevant problems and maybe listen to the community.
On August 21 2013 00:14 Terence Chill wrote: actually, i would appreciate it if nobody would play the testmap to send a message to blizzard. to make them really think about relevant problems and maybe listen to the community.
Listening to the communities demand for macro games is how we got to the WoL stale, boring match ups where everything was nerfed into the ground. Blizzard should avoid that this time around.
On August 21 2013 00:14 Terence Chill wrote: actually, i would appreciate it if nobody would play the testmap to send a message to blizzard. to make them really think about relevant problems and maybe listen to the community.
Listening to the communities demand for macro games is how we got to the WoL stale, boring match ups where everything was nerfed into the ground. Blizzard should avoid that this time around.
Yeah, 2 rax, 4 gate and bunker rushes were much more fun.
On August 21 2013 00:14 Terence Chill wrote: actually, i would appreciate it if nobody would play the testmap to send a message to blizzard. to make them really think about relevant problems and maybe listen to the community.
Listening to the communities demand for macro games is how we got to the WoL stale, boring match ups where everything was nerfed into the ground. Blizzard should avoid that this time around.
well, but shooting and completly missing the target cant be the right way, or is it? it would be just a sign to show how we think about their ideas.
On August 21 2013 00:14 Terence Chill wrote: actually, i would appreciate it if nobody would play the testmap to send a message to blizzard. to make them really think about relevant problems and maybe listen to the community.
Listening to the communities demand for macro games is how we got to the WoL stale, boring match ups where everything was nerfed into the ground. Blizzard should avoid that this time around.
Yeah, 2 rax, 4 gate and bunker rushes were much more fun.
They at least made the game more interesting that 12 minutes of straight macro into a completely safe 3rd base. Or 6 queens into 80 drones.
On August 21 2013 00:14 Terence Chill wrote: actually, i would appreciate it if nobody would play the testmap to send a message to blizzard. to make them really think about relevant problems and maybe listen to the community.
Listening to the communities demand for macro games is how we got to the WoL stale, boring match ups where everything was nerfed into the ground. Blizzard should avoid that this time around.
well, but shooting and completly missing the target cant be the right way, or is it? it would be just a sign to show how we think about their ideas.
Just because you don’t agree with the changes doesn’t mean everyone agrees with you. Everyone whines every single time one of these test maps comes out, it doesn’t matter what they have in them. Its not really a good metric as to how good or on point the changes are.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
I agree with most of the other comments that it's the transition to lategame that is so hard for zerg, not the lategame itself. Getting the infestation pit and hive just takes so long that 3/3 is way behind the terran and they have a huge advantage while you get it.
I strongly doubt the overseer buff will have any impact on the game and the ultra and terran buff are quite ridiculous and not where I feel improvements are needed. I already use ultras in almost all my games because they are so insanely strong.
On August 21 2013 00:14 Terence Chill wrote: actually, i would appreciate it if nobody would play the testmap to send a message to blizzard. to make them really think about relevant problems and maybe listen to the community.
I disagree. It seems to me that a lot of community suggestions we've had through the lifetime of SC2 has a lot of the times been very very bad and would've made(/did make) the game much worse. Of course sometimes there are obvious things that everyone can agree on that has needed fixes in the past, but more often than not "the community" don't actually agree at all on what would be the right change to make either.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
agree so much, in fact i dont get the anti patch attitude of the sc2 community, like the most interesting thing im looking for on tl every day is wheather patchnotes are published or not
like this one reddit thread after hots release seems to have killed any ambition david kim might have had to patch more
and really there are like soooo many underused things in sc2 its pretty crazy that all that is happening lately are such miniscule changes when there is so much potential in undertuned units and abilities
please please patch more and now with the wcs model its seven very easy and reliable to patch right after every world final
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
No it's not cool at all.. Starcraft need stable methane performance and star players. I can't imagine any sports change rules all the time. That's why I only call RTS the true esports. MoBA can change whatever the metagame they like at any point. Everyone enjoys the constant refreshing gaming experience, even I myself enjoy it. It's for fun anyway. Esports is just another sale method.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
No it's not cool at that. Starcraft need stable methane performance and star players. That's why I only call RTS the true reports. MoBA can change whatever the metagame they like at any point. It's for fun and more sale anyway. Esports is just a method got sale.
That is why they do it at the end of the season, no in the middle. It allows the game to settle down before the new season starts, but opens the door for new builds and strats, rather than the next season being rehash for the previous.
Instead of, widow mines vs Ultras .... Widow mines vs Massive, reduce the damage vs massive, I really don´t like the fantasy vs Flash game, were a lot of widow mines destroy battlecruiser like they were paper
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
No it's not cool at that. Starcraft need stable methane performance and star players. That's why I only call RTS the true reports. MoBA can change whatever the metagame they like at any point. It's for fun and more sale anyway. Esports is just a method got sale.
That is why they do it at the end of the season, no in the middle. It allows the game to settle down before the new season starts, but opens the door for new builds and strats, rather than the next season being rehash for the previous.
It's more beautiful when players themselves figure things out and you see how the game naturally evolves .
On August 21 2013 01:11 camilocraft wrote: Instead of, widow mines vs Ultras .... Widow mines vs Massive, reduce the damage vs massive, I really don´t like the fantasy vs Flash game, were a lot of widow mines destroy battlecruiser like they were paper
On other hand, this was glorious and i really found it pretty darn fun... for player without BCs. Especially considering how hard it is to have air dominance, if you lose it and opponent transitioned into BCs.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
No it's not cool at that. Starcraft need stable methane performance and star players. That's why I only call RTS the true reports. MoBA can change whatever the metagame they like at any point. It's for fun and more sale anyway. Esports is just a method got sale.
That is why they do it at the end of the season, no in the middle. It allows the game to settle down before the new season starts, but opens the door for new builds and strats, rather than the next season being rehash for the previous.
If you only consider the casual players, it's great idea. Buy on part of sc scene is the pro scene. A seasonly changed game will destroy the star players, hence the viewship.
On August 21 2013 01:11 camilocraft wrote: Instead of, widow mines vs Ultras .... Widow mines vs Massive, reduce the damage vs massive, I really don´t like the fantasy vs Flash game, were a lot of widow mines destroy battlecruiser like they were paper
Sure why not nerf the only kinda counter mech has vs toss air.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
No it's not cool at that. Starcraft need stable methane performance and star players. That's why I only call RTS the true reports. MoBA can change whatever the metagame they like at any point. It's for fun and more sale anyway. Esports is just a method got sale.
That is why they do it at the end of the season, no in the middle. It allows the game to settle down before the new season starts, but opens the door for new builds and strats, rather than the next season being rehash for the previous.
It's more beautiful when players themselves figure things out and you see how the game naturally evolves .
It is just as much fun to watch them figure out new things with the changes and watch the game evolve from there. It also keeps the player base intrested, as the game is fresh with new options.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
No it's not cool at that. Starcraft need stable methane performance and star players. That's why I only call RTS the true reports. MoBA can change whatever the metagame they like at any point. It's for fun and more sale anyway. Esports is just a method got sale.
That is why they do it at the end of the season, no in the middle. It allows the game to settle down before the new season starts, but opens the door for new builds and strats, rather than the next season being rehash for the previous.
If you only consider the casual players, it's great idea. Buy on part of sc scene is the pro scene. A seasonly changed game will destroy the star players, hence the viewship.
With that arugment, HotS should have destoryed all professional players and viewship. That isn't what happened at all.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance.
RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance.
Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched.
SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
No it's not cool at that. Starcraft need stable methane performance and star players. That's why I only call RTS the true reports. MoBA can change whatever the metagame they like at any point. It's for fun and more sale anyway. Esports is just a method got sale.
That is why they do it at the end of the season, no in the middle. It allows the game to settle down before the new season starts, but opens the door for new builds and strats, rather than the next season being rehash for the previous.
It's more beautiful when players themselves figure things out and you see how the game naturally evolves .
It is just as much fun to watch them figure out new things with the changes and watch the game evolve from there. It also keeps the player base intrested, as the game is fresh with new options.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
No it's not cool at that. Starcraft need stable methane performance and star players. That's why I only call RTS the true reports. MoBA can change whatever the metagame they like at any point. It's for fun and more sale anyway. Esports is just a method got sale.
That is why they do it at the end of the season, no in the middle. It allows the game to settle down before the new season starts, but opens the door for new builds and strats, rather than the next season being rehash for the previous.
If you only consider the casual players, it's great idea. Buy on part of sc scene is the pro scene. A seasonly changed game will destroy the star players, hence the viewship.
With that arugment, HotS should have destoryed all professional players and viewship. That isn't what happened at all.
i really dont get why people are so allergic to changes, it seems to be an attitude carried over from bw, in all honesty blizzard has been pretty lazy lately
Ultra's buff is a bad idea, the issue for zerg is transition. Main issue I would say its the infestor, its either weak or strong, the fungal cannot have a good point, given how chain is instant kill of whatever it grabs. I would rather have it be a bigger area, but slow instead, it would achieve the same objective, yet it wouldn't let it chain. That and the awful AA they have, corruptors could be more expensive but have some sort of splash or something that makes them not melt against a bunch of void rays.
To me, the biggest problem with TvZ right now is Drilling Claws. Allowing a unit to "siege up" in 1 second is ridiculous, and it means that Widow Mines are never caught out of position like siege tanks can be. This reduces strategy and slow pushes with widow mines, and allows 4M to charge forward and burrow when attacked. The Drilling Claws upgrade needs to go and hang out with the Khaydarin Amulet in the OP pit of loneliness.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance.
RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance.
Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched.
SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves.
Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player.
also while its ofc difficult to balance an rts people blow this way out of proportion, just look at what drastic changes hots brought to the game and even after release balance was in an ok state
also if blizzard would adapt a 3 month cycle of patching between seasons previous changes that didnt turn out well can be reverted or compensated for quickly
also atm everything is up in the air with patches, nobody knows whats happening unless blizzard is kind enough to talk to us, with scheduled patching people would look forward to something, pros dont get screwed up by patches that hit right before a tournament and frustration for underpowered races is minimized as they know a patch is gonna hit after a season ends
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance.
RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance.
Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched.
SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves.
Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player.
If it works for DotA and LoL and hasn't been tried in BW at all, I don't see why SC2 shouldn't be allowed to try it too. I mean, that's the whole beauty of not being the only esport in the world anymore. WE CAN FINALLY COPY GOOD STUFF.
Disapprove change #1: understand that this change is geared towards tvp but cant help thinking that it would make zvt even more difficult if terran goes mech. Approve change #2: fair change as so many times (for me anyways) the momentum is lost against 4M battles after 12 min+ mark due to overseers sniped or otherwise dead for lagging behind. Neural on change #3: dont think the hp buff would help in late game zvt anyways as long as the terran is smart to have a couple of rax with tech labs (which they always do).
ultralisks living 10% longer, mech players now officially never going to leave their base and another strange why not change, seems like blizzard is back to darts + a board balance
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance.
RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance.
Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched.
SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves.
Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player.
It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up.
I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable.
Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed.
An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta.
On August 21 2013 01:28 iGn1t3 wrote: My first thoughts on these changes re zvt:
Disapprove change #1: understand that this change is geared towards tvp but cant help thinking that it would make zvt even more difficult if terran goes mech.
Yeah man, look at all these pro Zergs struggling with meching Terrans.....
This isn't going to solve any of the problems with ZvP, or ZvT. The problem with Ultras has never been their beefiness, or ability to tank damage, and the reason they're difficult to get to in ZvT is because of the constant pressure that 4M allows. You can't use infestors to buy enough time to get out ultras anymore, due to the nerfs, which means you have to constantly throw your gas into mutas and banelings to even stay alive, making a hive transition incredibly slow.
If you want to fix the issues of midgame TvZ, then take away the widow mine's ignoring of armor, so that when you get carapace upgrades, you no longer get 1 shot by them. This holds off a number of silly allin attacks, and still does massive damage to zerg players who don't micro.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance.
RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance.
Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched.
SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves.
Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player.
It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up.
I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable.
Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed.
An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta.
Sorry, I checked out with the phrase "Mobas are easy as shit to balance". I don't know where people got the idea that Dota 2 is easy to balance with 100+ heroes and complex drafting system. But that is another topic.
The first comment was about "quality of life patch" which is a term used in LoL when they change an under played hero to bring them back into the game. It is a good idea for SC2 as well. The changes don't need to be huge and should focus on under used units to bring them back into use in some fashion. Just changing the way the nydus loads and unloads might be enough of a buff for people to use it.
Also, fuck changing Warpgate and force fields. I might as well ask for them to change marines so they arn't the best snow ball unit in the game that is only countered by AOEs. We would also beat a dead horse too, but that won't get us anywhere either. We don't change thing people are using all the time.
On August 20 2013 23:57 PXEnTei wrote: NO ULTRA BUFF. they already dont die, they are the strongest thing zerg has. buff other things, or also nerf damage I play terran, and when a zerg can get to 3-5 ultras with a surounding army. thats when the game gets reallllllly hard. Once people start making like 4 infestors along with everthing it will be seen how good they are. bling ultra fungal is really good. I normaly think buffing is better than nerfing, but in terms of this, i think a mine nerf would be better.
When the game starts it´s the point when it gets hard for zerg. My sympathy is quite limited.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance.
RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance.
Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched.
SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves.
Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player.
It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up.
I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable.
Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed.
An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta.
come on, he is not talking about nerfing zerglings or buffing colossi.
He is talking about buffing ohter stuff that is not used a lot currently. You know, that does not kill any of the current strategies in itself. It just gives alternatives and well, if those alternatives prove to be useful and get figured out, then you will have to adapt a little bit with the old strategies. But it's not like he/we want to rebalance everything. Just have a patch at the end of the season that does more than "hm, there might be a tiny problem in TvZ, let's buff the ultralisk that everybody is using already so that it works out a tiny bit better for Zerg." or stuff like that.
On August 21 2013 01:22 manniefresh wrote: To me, the biggest problem with TvZ right now is Drilling Claws. Allowing a unit to "siege up" in 1 second is ridiculous, and it means that Widow Mines are never caught out of position like siege tanks can be. This reduces strategy and slow pushes with widow mines, and allows 4M to charge forward and burrow when attacked. The Drilling Claws upgrade needs to go and hang out with the Khaydarin Amulet in the OP pit of loneliness.
Interesting point, especially in comparison to siege tank. Another option would be a decrease on mines´ hitpoints, so they can be taken out wasier before they get off.
Read the testmap changes, thought about them while reading through the thread comments, looking for level headed discussion. Was disappointed, went and ate lunch.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance.
RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance.
Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched.
SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves.
Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player.
It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up.
I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable.
Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed.
An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta.
Sorry, I checked out with the phrase "Mobas are easy as shit to balance". I don't know where people got the idea that Dota 2 is easy to balance with 100+ heroes and complex drafting system. But that is another topic.
The first comment was about "quality of life patch" which is a term used in LoL when they change an under played hero to bring them back into the game. It is a good idea for SC2 as well. The changes don't need to be huge and should focus on under used units to bring them back into use in some fashion. Just changing the way the nydus loads and unloads might be enough of a buff for people to use it.
Also, fuck changing Warpgate and force fields. I might as well ask for them to change marines so they arn't the best snow ball unit in the game that is only countered by AOEs. We would also beat a dead horse too, but that won't get us anywhere either. We don't change thing people are using all the time.
That was my main point actually. Looks like we agree. Changes that "aren't huge" and that focus on "under used units" aren't changes that would reset the meta-game, it would simply have the meta-game evolve.
As long as patches don't reset the meta, then it's fine. My point was that big ass changes that reset the meta would do an RTS way more harm than good.
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance.
RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance.
Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched.
SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves.
Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player.
It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up.
I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable.
Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed.
An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta.
Since you mentioned the banshee buff, I'd argue it most certainly changed the meta of TvT. Just since you make it sound like you really need a big change for the meta to shift.
In any case, I think putting 3/3 on lair tech and balancing from that POV(might need a Z nerf after dust has settled from that change) would be much smarter than buffing ultras, which are already pretty damn scary. The current 4M style really revolves around not giving zerg a breather to get 3/3 and that is the biggest problem imo. Generally Z and T hit 2/2 at similar time, T infrastructure is up and running and while 3/3 costs essentiall 10 marine for T, Z simply can't get enough gas for all the upgrades while also staying alive. Then T just pressures and eventually if T has strong mechanics he can just keep trading cost effectively, esp when 3/3 has hit.
I'd personally also like a bit more revival of casters in TvZ. Infestor is a hit and miss atm, vipers suck against 4M(and are way to strong imo against mech) and ravens... kind of suck for TvZ(well there's very little you can atleast HSM in the standard Z army). All these units are so "all or nothing" which makes them risky to produce. Perhaps not a desperately needed change for them, but there could also be improvements there.
So yeah: 1. I don't mind this change, but I don't feel it will accomplish much outside TvT 2. I don't mind this change, though I don't feel this is really a straight up balance problem, and rather lowering the skill ceiling for zerg. 3. I find just stupid and feel it's on par with fixing the midgame dominance of T in TvP WoL by buffing hts. When you have ultras out is the time the dust has already started settling, the problem is before that point.
On August 20 2013 23:42 EFBarbarossa wrote: I would have welcomed some nydus buff instead like a bit more hitpoints or else - right now, you hardly see and even less succeed yourself with nydus action if it can be killed by probes or 1 lone zealot/marine while being build. This might have helped in the midgame where I see more struggling than in late game. If zerg was allowed to use nydus a bit more like terra uses drops and protoss uses warp prism, which both have been buffed like hell btw :-) it would create a much more versatile midgame.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance.
RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance.
Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched.
SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves.
Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player.
It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up.
I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable.
Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed.
An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta.
Sorry, I checked out with the phrase "Mobas are easy as shit to balance". I don't know where people got the idea that Dota 2 is easy to balance with 100+ heroes and complex drafting system. But that is another topic.
The first comment was about "quality of life patch" which is a term used in LoL when they change an under played hero to bring them back into the game. It is a good idea for SC2 as well. The changes don't need to be huge and should focus on under used units to bring them back into use in some fashion. Just changing the way the nydus loads and unloads might be enough of a buff for people to use it.
Also, fuck changing Warpgate and force fields. I might as well ask for them to change marines so they arn't the best snow ball unit in the game that is only countered by AOEs. We would also beat a dead horse too, but that won't get us anywhere either. We don't change thing people are using all the time.
That was my main point actually. Looks like we agree. Changes that "aren't huge" and that focus on "under used units" aren't changes that would reset the meta-game, it would simply have the meta-game evolve.
As long as patches don't reset the meta, then it's fine. My point was that big ass changes that reset the meta would do an RTS way more harm than good.
And to be fair, Dota and LoL don't do that either. They focus on stuff that has fall out of favor or was just never used, rather than trying to "fix" stuff that is already awesome. And when I say "break everything" I mean that no one knows what is the best any more, so they have to try out the new stuff.
there needs to be a buff to the midgame Zerg... doesn't mean ultras... t1 to tier 2 vs t1 to tier 2 units is the most exciting to watch from a viewer stand point. t3 vs t3 is pretty much a unit composition fight/and or casting fight. This only pertains to TvZ.
I think making the transition easier for Zerg gives Zerg and imbalance because the transition for Terran is not equal. I also don't believe you should be able to transition if you are consistently trade efficiently because both players are in the same place. If there is a lull in the game then transition, otherwise it shouldn't be an option.
I think buffing the scouting potential is a good step but a lot of the problems I see is Zerg aren't making enough hatcheries to support the ling bling muta style, or they are not keeping up with their larva injects. (for a pro, larva injecting is a really simple task and take 3 to 5 seconds max) and even if you do miss a larva inject then make more hatcheries. Ling bling muta is a larva intensive unit composition, so keeping up with larva count is super important.
Jaedong vs Polt is a perfect example of floating tons of minerals but not building new hatcheries for extra production. Jaedong didn't keep up with his production for the amount of income that he had, and falling behind in any aspect by either side results in a loss.
At the end of this WCS season, Blizzard should do a “Quality of Life” patch for all the unloved units in the game and shake up the meta. Banshees, ravens, nydus, carriers, thors, tempest(if they are still not used)ghosts. It’s a great way to keep the game fresh for the next season and keep things changing, while not totally fucking up the pro players who are in WCS.
sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance.
RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance.
Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched.
SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves.
Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player.
It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up.
I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable.
Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed.
An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta.
Sorry, I checked out with the phrase "Mobas are easy as shit to balance". I don't know where people got the idea that Dota 2 is easy to balance with 100+ heroes and complex drafting system. But that is another topic.
The first comment was about "quality of life patch" which is a term used in LoL when they change an under played hero to bring them back into the game. It is a good idea for SC2 as well. The changes don't need to be huge and should focus on under used units to bring them back into use in some fashion. Just changing the way the nydus loads and unloads might be enough of a buff for people to use it.
Also, fuck changing Warpgate and force fields. I might as well ask for them to change marines so they arn't the best snow ball unit in the game that is only countered by AOEs. We would also beat a dead horse too, but that won't get us anywhere either. We don't change thing people are using all the time.
That was my main point actually. Looks like we agree. Changes that "aren't huge" and that focus on "under used units" aren't changes that would reset the meta-game, it would simply have the meta-game evolve.
As long as patches don't reset the meta, then it's fine. My point was that big ass changes that reset the meta would do an RTS way more harm than good.
And to be fair, Dota and LoL don't do that either. They focus on stuff that has fall out of favor or was just never used, rather than trying to "fix" stuff that is already awesome. And when I say "break everything" I mean that no one knows what is the best any more, so they have to try out the new stuff.
My bad then. I thought you were talking about the big season 3 changes that Riot did. Items changed quite a lot, the deathcap got nerfed, supports got better items (FREE WARDS :D), AD carries got more than just a select few items that were good on them (Botrk and frozen fist especially). That's what I would call breaking the meta-game. If we're talking about small changes such as Yi's redesign, then yeah, no biggie. ^_^
On August 21 2013 00:32 Die4Ever wrote: [quote] sounds really cool actually as long as they only make small changes and not to every unit at once lol, I especially think they should buff the nydus
Dota 2 and League of Legends shack up the meta right after a season or leading up to a big event(dota 2 does it in the months leading up to TI#). Its is a great way to keep the game viable and sort of “break everything” and keeps the game fresh. The last Dota 2 patch buffed almost every underused hero and only did the most minor of nerfs. I think Blizzard should apply the same logic go SC2 after WCS is done for this year and give some love to those units that just don’t fit into the meta right now.
wow, that's actually such a cool idea.
It's a terrible idea, at least in my opinion. MOBAs can break down the meta-game and have it build up again because of how it's relatively easy the game is to balance.
RTS games are much more difficult to balance, especially a game such as SC2 where there are hard and soft counters mixed together with 3 races which are completely different in terms of design. Trying to break down and rebuild the meta would only harm the meta; the metagame of an RTS evolves quite a lot and it builds on top of itself. Not to mention it would be a fucking nightmare to balance.
Look at Brood War; the meta of that game changed quite significantly over long periods of time even though the game itself wasn't touched.
SC2 isn't brood war but the principle is still there, the meta constantly evolves.
Just becuase it was good in BW does not mean it was perfect or the best way to do everything. We can't base everything we do in SC2 on a 10 year old game that was the first succussful Esport. Changing things up after a season is not bad and getting unloved units into the meta won't kill every professional player.
It won't kill the professional player, it'll kill the game. Not only would be a horrible nightmare to balance (again, MOBAs are easy as shit to balance) but the meta-game itself would be reset. The meta-game in an RTS is something that is constantly evolving and each time it evolves game quality goes up.
I took Brood War as an example but it really applies for every RTS out there. MOBAs aren't RTS so they aren't comparable.
Then again perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing. If you do what Riot did to LoL which is completely change the meta-game then it isn't viable in an RTS. If you're talking about just buffing underused units without touching anything else, then it's not a bad idea I guess, if the banshee buff is anything to look at. The important part is that the meta-game shouldn't be killed.
An example of what would kill the meta-game would be re-designing Protoss without force-fields and warp gates. That would kill the protoss part of the meta for sure, it's why Blizzard probably won't ever do it. Hots itself didn't kill the meta-game because it was an expansion based off of WoL, at the start of WoL I believe people still used WoL builds and then incorporated the new stuff into WoL builds. Again, that was a huge shift but it didn't kill the meta.
Sorry, I checked out with the phrase "Mobas are easy as shit to balance". I don't know where people got the idea that Dota 2 is easy to balance with 100+ heroes and complex drafting system. But that is another topic.
The first comment was about "quality of life patch" which is a term used in LoL when they change an under played hero to bring them back into the game. It is a good idea for SC2 as well. The changes don't need to be huge and should focus on under used units to bring them back into use in some fashion. Just changing the way the nydus loads and unloads might be enough of a buff for people to use it.
Also, fuck changing Warpgate and force fields. I might as well ask for them to change marines so they arn't the best snow ball unit in the game that is only countered by AOEs. We would also beat a dead horse too, but that won't get us anywhere either. We don't change thing people are using all the time.
That was my main point actually. Looks like we agree. Changes that "aren't huge" and that focus on "under used units" aren't changes that would reset the meta-game, it would simply have the meta-game evolve.
As long as patches don't reset the meta, then it's fine. My point was that big ass changes that reset the meta would do an RTS way more harm than good.
And to be fair, Dota and LoL don't do that either. They focus on stuff that has fall out of favor or was just never used, rather than trying to "fix" stuff that is already awesome. And when I say "break everything" I mean that no one knows what is the best any more, so they have to try out the new stuff.
My bad then. I thought you were talking about the big season 3 changes that Riot did. Items changed quite a lot, the deathcap got nerfed, supports got better items (FREE WARDS :D), AD carries got more than just a select few items that were good on them (Botrk and frozen fist especially). That's what I would call breaking the meta-game. If we're talking about small changes such as Yi's redesign, then yeah, no biggie. ^_^
Well they were fixing some fucked up shit in LoL, like the fact that one items could give you total map control forever if you didn't die and got ahead. Plus they are not Dota or SC2, who have some basis to be balanced. LoL got pretty much broken and they needed to fix it.
I hate the Ultra buff. It punishes any Terran who does not win EVERY fight to end the game under 15 min. Bascily zerg makes ling bling muta and a lot and gets bases, while terran constantly attacks. IF zerg gets to Ultras, all your mines are wasted supply, all your marines are ultra fodder and you better lost no medevacs at all.
The Concept of zerg is not to have an ultra-strong army, but to make tech-changes and constantly outnumber. With the new ultra, and viper and even with the "lost son" infestor it gets to the old days of BL infestor vs Protoss and terran has no chance..
On August 21 2013 02:06 plgElwood wrote: I hate the Ultra buff. It punishes any Terran who does not win EVERY fight to end the game under 15 min. Bascily zerg makes ling bling muta and a lot and gets bases, while terran constantly attacks. IF zerg gets to Ultras, all your mines are wasted supply, all your marines are ultra fodder and you better lost no medevacs at all.
The Concept of zerg is not to have an ultra-strong army, but to make tech-changes and constantly outnumber. With the new ultra, and viper and even with the "lost son" infestor it gets to the old days of BL infestor vs Protoss and terran has no chance..
Hahaha.......
T.T
Because you should be able to win a game with only marines and mines.
It appears Blizzard really has no idea what to do and are just throwing ideas out there to see what actually works. The biggest issue with Zerg right now is that they have no effective mid-tier spell casters. In WOL they had infestors which was pretty much the backbone for the Zerg army. However that unit was way too powerful in the mid and late game which lead to really stale gameplay. This is a change I wanted since WOL but I think can still be applied to HOTS as well.
They should switch the tech tier for the Infestor and Viper. If they do this they need to the buff fungal damage. Right now Viper's are useless because they require Hive tech to get them however at that point in time Terran or Protoss already have armies that can easily negate Vipers (Ghosts/HTs/Vikings). Infestors as they currently are, are not very powerful at any point of the game. I really think Infestors need a buff in some way, but if you do this they need to be moved to a higher tech so we don't go back to WOL gameplay. Vipers can be effective in the mid-game which Zerg desperately needs to safely transition to Hive tech especially against Terran.
I think this would be the easiest change that could change the dynamic of the game a lot.
Count me in on the camp who doesn't like this ultra buff. Ultras are already very very strong, and if the zerg manages to get a good number of them it becomes nearly impossible to fight straight on. This buff just makes that kind of army stronger, but it doesn't address the midgame where zerg is usually so crippled that they cant utilize their strong hive tech fully.
I know "buffing instead of nerfing" is the new big thing but didn't we just nerf hellbats in the last patch? How about a small reduction to mine AOE, while maybe increasing the secondary damage to 45 or 50. This means its way less effective against ling/bane but more effective against certain bigger targets.
or just redesign the infestor or whatever, however vipers on lair would be broken because as protoss, he needs to have hts much earlier than hive timing, also protoss pushes would be negated by some simple vipers at the same time
protoss would be game over
btw, the ultralisk buff +50, if they seriously consider to actually have this in game, then i must say one thing and that is: awful designers
On August 21 2013 02:15 Bagi wrote: Count me in on the camp who doesn't like this ultra buff. Ultras are already very very strong, and if the zerg manages to get a good number of them it becomes nearly impossible to fight straight on. This buff just makes that kind of army stronger, but it doesn't address the midgame where zerg is usually so crippled that they cant utilize their strong hive tech fully.
I know "buffing instead of nerfing" is the new big thing but didn't we just nerf hellbats in the last patch? How about a small reduction to mine AOE, while maybe increasing the secondary damage to 45 or 50. This means its way less effective against ling/bane but more effective against certain bigger targets.
I think the whole point is don't nerf units that are already awesome unless you are forced to do so. Its better to give the other race a way to respond or other options.
The removal of drilling claws would actually make a lot of sense. It's almost impossible to get caught out of position when your siege weapons have a deployment time of only one second.
Instead of this dumb ultra change, maybe they should consider allowing Hive tech to start with either infestation pit or spire, instead of just infestation pit? Surely this would help Zerg transition much easier from muta to ultra?
On August 21 2013 02:28 Lock0n wrote: Instead of this dumb ultra change, maybe they should consider allowing Hive tech to start with either infestation pit or spire, instead of just infestation pit? Surely this would help Zerg transition much easier from muta to ultra?
What about making the infestor 100/100 instead of 100/150, so you need slightly less gas to transition to hive. Or remove Pathogen Glands and increase the starting energy of the infestor. It would only be 150 gas less, but on the other hand thats a Hive.
On August 21 2013 02:28 Henk wrote: The removal of drilling claws would actually make a lot of sense. It's almost impossible to get caught out of position when your siege weapons have a deployment time of only one second.
Range 5 is a siege weapon? Really????
On August 21 2013 02:33 wage wrote: What about making the infestor 100/100 instead of 100/150, so you need slightly less gas to transition to hive. Or remove Pathogen Glands and increase the starting energy of the infestor. It would only be 150 gas less, but on the other hand thats a Hive.
Massive numbers of Infestors were bad in the past and if they were made cheaper it would become viable again ... even after the nerf both Fungal and Infested Terran received. Bad idea.
On August 21 2013 02:28 Lock0n wrote: Instead of this dumb ultra change, maybe they should consider allowing Hive tech to start with either infestation pit or spire, instead of just infestation pit? Surely this would help Zerg transition much easier from muta to ultra?
I like this idea also. I have no issue with the ultra change, becuase i don't really think it will do crap to anyone/thing. I think a mid-game change will have the most positive effect for zerg, without destorying everything. I am a big fan of the overseer thing though. I have been thinking/saying for a while that they need to be quicker, but also think that ovrlords need to be a bit quicker....
not quite sure what to think of the ultrabuff. doesnt seem very effective to make them beefier but I might be wrong...
I always thought that zergs problems lie in the fact that they have fast units in the early-midgame but only slow units in the lategame (broodlords, ultralisks, swarmhosts, infestors). I dont see how increasing the healthpool of one unit from 500 to 550 makes a big difference?!
Armoury buff is a step in the right direction, although I feel like tanks having no role in the game is the real mech problem, and is related to the the tvz problem.
Overseer speed.buff is nice, directly helps zerg deal with mid game widow mines.
Ultralisk buff: general consensus around here is that it's a lazy buff that doesn't address tvz problems and I completely agree.
On August 21 2013 02:33 wage wrote: What about making the infestor 100/100 instead of 100/150, so you need slightly less gas to transition to hive. Or remove Pathogen Glands and increase the starting energy of the infestor. It would only be 150 gas less, but on the other hand thats a Hive.
Massive numbers of Infestors were bad in the past and if they were made cheaper it would become viable again ... even after the nerf both Fungal and Infested Terran received. Bad idea.
What about just removing the upgrade then? The only time that really benefits you is during the transition to Hive. For mass infestor it doesnt really matter at all if you have 29 or 30, but during the transition where you have either 3 or 4, that makes a difference imo
Can I suggest to change the mine into a "mine burrower", like the vulture, with a limit of X number of mines (extra mines cost minerals like reaver scarabs) except the mine burrower has no firing power. This way clearing mines and planting mines requires the same amount micro, rather than just 1 click for terran and 5 clicks for zerg.
Honestly I'm going to get yelled at of how stupid I am BUT I would like to say I wish they would scratch tanks alltogether and make a more mobile unit like the Thor that took its place. Like make an alteration to the warhound to compensate for not having tanks...... Please feel free to bash me
On August 21 2013 02:28 Henk wrote: The removal of drilling claws would actually make a lot of sense. It's almost impossible to get caught out of position when your siege weapons have a deployment time of only one second.
On August 21 2013 02:33 wage wrote: What about making the infestor 100/100 instead of 100/150, so you need slightly less gas to transition to hive. Or remove Pathogen Glands and increase the starting energy of the infestor. It would only be 150 gas less, but on the other hand thats a Hive.
Massive numbers of Infestors were bad in the past and if they were made cheaper it would become viable again ... even after the nerf both Fungal and Infested Terran received. Bad idea.
The current infestor would not be viable to mass even if it was 50/50 and 1 supply. They just don't have any DPS anymore and can't kill stuff by their own unless supplys are very low.
On August 21 2013 02:55 riceant wrote: Can I suggest to change the mine into a "mine burrower", like the vulture, with a limit of X number of mines (extra mines cost minerals like reaver scarabs) except the mine burrower has no firing power. This way clearing mines and planting mines requires the same amount micro, rather than just 1 click for terran and 5 clicks for zerg.
I think you need to think about actually plausible solutions. They aren't going to completely rework the widowmine now.
I do think the idea of pathogen glands being done away with could be good for buying that extra time without forcing the timing push against hive to be earlier. It would also make it so you don't have to choose between the locust upgrade and pathogen glands when you want to use both in a composition.
looking at the changes again i also think that the changes to armory upgrades are not going to effect mech in any matchup except for TvT. whether or not air transitions vs protoss and zerg are actually viable or not, people simply just don't seem to WANT to do it in matchups other than TvT, which I think is simply a design flaw, not a power level flaw.
i think the reasoning behind Ultra's at least for me is, because they cant close the gaps down quick enough, and if the zerg player does not want to engage the ultras end up taking loads of shots for free which weakens them for thee engagments that the player wants, you could argue positioning but when watcing ultras they always take alot of damage way before they get into the fight
On August 21 2013 03:01 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: With the overseer speed buff, zergs have it easy: just contaminate e-bays to delay 3-3. Match-up totally solved.
hehe yeah only 1 overseer per 30 sec to contaminate would only require like 14 or so to do it all time + thats T not denying it once. nice theorycraft though and obv only 700 gas which is basically exactly the amount to get +3 +3 yourself :D
On August 21 2013 02:28 Henk wrote: The removal of drilling claws would actually make a lot of sense. It's almost impossible to get caught out of position when your siege weapons have a deployment time of only one second.
Range 5 is a siege weapon? Really????
On August 21 2013 02:33 wage wrote: What about making the infestor 100/100 instead of 100/150, so you need slightly less gas to transition to hive. Or remove Pathogen Glands and increase the starting energy of the infestor. It would only be 150 gas less, but on the other hand thats a Hive.
Massive numbers of Infestors were bad in the past and if they were made cheaper it would become viable again ... even after the nerf both Fungal and Infested Terran received. Bad idea.
The current infestor would not be viable to mass even if it was 50/50 and 1 supply. They just don't have any DPS anymore and can't kill stuff by their own unless supplys are very low.
The Infestor isn't actually much weaker in and of itself than it was in WoL in ZvT (Infested Terran nerf was huge, the Fungal nerf only made fungal slightly harder to use since you had to predict your opponent's unit movement but contrary to popular belief the projectile moves too quickly for Terran to reactively dodge, they need to anticipate when it's going to be cast and juke out of the way, and fungal still does the same damage to light units).
The main reason the Ling / Infestor midgame style isn't still used is because widow mines are actually good vs lings unlike siege tanks (which even if sieged, if the zerg opponent attacked from more than one angle or from one angle on creep would get demolished) and the Medivac speed boost makes it easier for Terran to abuse the immobility of Infestors. Infestors never beat a Terran army on their own, they had huge numbers of heavily upgraded lings assisting them. If Blizzard got rid of widow mines, I feel certain Zerg would return to using the ling / infestor style.
On August 21 2013 02:28 Henk wrote: The removal of drilling claws would actually make a lot of sense. It's almost impossible to get caught out of position when your siege weapons have a deployment time of only one second.
Range 5 is a siege weapon? Really????
On August 21 2013 02:33 wage wrote: What about making the infestor 100/100 instead of 100/150, so you need slightly less gas to transition to hive. Or remove Pathogen Glands and increase the starting energy of the infestor. It would only be 150 gas less, but on the other hand thats a Hive.
Massive numbers of Infestors were bad in the past and if they were made cheaper it would become viable again ... even after the nerf both Fungal and Infested Terran received. Bad idea.
The current infestor would not be viable to mass even if it was 50/50 and 1 supply. They just don't have any DPS anymore and can't kill stuff by their own unless supplys are very low.
The Infestor isn't actually much weaker in and of itself than it was in WoL in ZvT (Infested Terran nerf was huge, the Fungal nerf only made fungal slightly harder to use since you had to predict your opponent's unit movement but contrary to popular belief the projectile moves too quickly for Terran to reactively dodge, they need to anticipate when it's going to be cast and juke out of the way, and fungal still does the same damage to light units).
The main reason the Ling / Infestor midgame style isn't still used is because widow mines are actually good vs lings unlike siege tanks (which even if sieged, if the zerg opponent attacked from more than one angle or from one angle on creep would get demolished) and the Medivac speed boost makes it easier for Terran to abuse the immobility of Infestors. Infestors never beat a Terran army on their own, they had huge numbers of heavily upgraded lings assisting them. If Blizzard got rid of widow mines, I feel certain Zerg would return to using the ling / infestor style.
Infested Terran's have been nerfed to the point where it's actually a redundant ability. It's like when they were trying to kill off the mothership and nerfed vortex to only affect one non-massive unit, it may as well just be removed from them.
20 pages is a lot to tread through. Does anyone who has read all of it know if any pros who have tested these changes have commented on them yet? Everything else is just a bunch of theorycraft/speculative shit
On August 21 2013 02:28 Henk wrote: The removal of drilling claws would actually make a lot of sense. It's almost impossible to get caught out of position when your siege weapons have a deployment time of only one second.
Range 5 is a siege weapon? Really????
On August 21 2013 02:33 wage wrote: What about making the infestor 100/100 instead of 100/150, so you need slightly less gas to transition to hive. Or remove Pathogen Glands and increase the starting energy of the infestor. It would only be 150 gas less, but on the other hand thats a Hive.
Massive numbers of Infestors were bad in the past and if they were made cheaper it would become viable again ... even after the nerf both Fungal and Infested Terran received. Bad idea.
The current infestor would not be viable to mass even if it was 50/50 and 1 supply. They just don't have any DPS anymore and can't kill stuff by their own unless supplys are very low.
The Infestor isn't actually much weaker in and of itself than it was in WoL in ZvT (Infested Terran nerf was huge, the Fungal nerf only made fungal slightly harder to use since you had to predict your opponent's unit movement but contrary to popular belief the projectile moves too quickly for Terran to reactively dodge, they need to anticipate when it's going to be cast and juke out of the way, and fungal still does the same damage to light units).
The main reason the Ling / Infestor midgame style isn't still used is because widow mines are actually good vs lings unlike siege tanks (which even if sieged, if the zerg opponent attacked from more than one angle or from one angle on creep would get demolished) and the Medivac speed boost makes it easier for Terran to abuse the immobility of Infestors. Infestors never beat a Terran army on their own, they had huge numbers of heavily upgraded lings assisting them. If Blizzard got rid of widow mines, I feel certain Zerg would return to using the ling / infestor style.
Infested Terran's have been nerfed to the point where it's actually a redundant ability. It's like when they were trying to kill off the mothership and nerfed vortex to only affect one non-massive unit, it may as well just be removed from them.
It's an energy dump emergency ability just like auto-turret for ravens. The spell was never meant to be the reason you build infestors, but infested terrans with 3-3 proved to be ridiculously strong.
I also agree with Pursuit that changes to terran were the real reason why lingfestor went out of style, and forcing infestor buffs isn't the right way to bring it back. Infestors have a smaller support role now much like every other caster, and its really not a problem.
On August 21 2013 03:35 FallDownMarigold wrote: 20 pages is a lot to tread through. Does anyone who has read all of it know if any pros who have tested these changes have commented on them yet? Everything else is just a bunch of theorycraft/speculative shit
Funnily I read this comment at the same time with Idras tweet wondering why they ever bother with these call to action maps.
Not sure if pros play them, but either way nothing conclusive can be made from a handful of games. It takes weeks or even months of metagame development to really see what a patch does.
For people who seem to be hopeless, why don't you just think about the situation for a little bit.
What's hard for Bio players? In high level PvT games, constant late game zealot warpins are extremely difficult to deal with because you have to stutter step on 2 Fronts. Which requires an ungodly level of APM.
Overlord speed buff: You will probably get it now, why not use it with overseers. You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.
Now, you have more than 2 minutes of breathing room to sneak a hive and ultra den up earlier. Survive for just a little bit longer, and get ventral sacs.
Then since you have OL speed already, drop overlords with ultras 1 or 2 at a time to camp terran production. Now terran has to multitask at 2 fronts if you attack. Mutalisk harass. 3 Fronts. Ling/Bling runby. 4 fronts. See how hard it gets now?
Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way.
Overseer buff is nice. Makes picking off mines out in the open more reasonable.
But Zerg's biggest issue is the midgame. Zerg has to defend against drops, and a 4M push in the front. Right now he has no tools to trade cost effectively against the 4M while staying alive against drops, and this patch will not change that
I think buffing Ultralisk that is an already working unit is bad. Since hots I was very sad how the TvZ mu changed sinced terran have so many more options now and zergs new units mainly are good vs protoss. Since terran and protoss harassments are so much better nowdays it would be fun to see some more zerg harassments being viable. What I would like is to do 1 of the following changes: 1. Increase Hydra range from 6 to 7 2. Bring back parasite from BW instead of changelings and let overseers have that ability. Parasited units should also be counted as hostile units for mines. 3. I like the idea of bringing 3/3 upgrades to infestor tech. 4. Make corrupters morph to Vipers that wouldnt change the timeing so much since spire takes long time to make. But would be easier to get if you play Muta/Ling/BLing. 5. Increase range on nerual parasite and make mines explode on neural units. 6. Reduce cost/Increase effectiveness/hatchery tech of Overlord drop. To give zerg counter harassment tools. 7. Nerf mines radius 8. Make medivacs use energy when they speed up. that way they wont heal as good if they keep using speed all the time. It also would be easier to kill them after terran loosing a big fight since some of the medivacs would probably be without energy.
These are just some Idea that would make the game more fun. ------------------------------------------------- Upgrade changes for terran I dont mind but would rather see a reduced cost of armory.
Blizzard: We want to see more mech so we buff the 2 zerg units that hardcounter mech: viper and Ultras! LOL! Good job David Kim! How many shoots are required for a tank to kill a Ultra now? It's getting ridiculous. What sane person thinks mech can be viable vs blinding cloud+Ultras? And the Protoss just needs mass Immortals and it's an autowin...
On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way.
This is not what people want though. Having zerg weak until you get ultras and then its insta-win just creates boring, predictable games.
We want more games that are back-and-forth. Buff the race where its weak, not where its at its strongest.
I'm pretty sure the +50 buff only make the ultra survive less than 2 second more vs the 3/3 marauders + mines.
The problem is Zerg enter in the late game with a huge desavantage cause they have taken a lot of dommage in the mid game. And Zerg have like no option of harass in this matchup (just some all-in/cheese). Plz improve drop/nyndus that is not competitive. Nyndus buff, can be used for defending the drop with a roach/hydra play vs Terran. Decrease the cost of a new network and the building speed when casted on creep for example. All the zerg have is mutalisk. They need 10-20 to do a little dommage but the dammage deals is nearly always less than what they cost. Moreover, as they very weak on frontal fight, mutalisk is most of the time a lot of mineral/gaz wasted.
Defending drop is also an issue, the zerg building are very weak. A few zelotes/marinnes kill hatch/major building, even if the whole zerg army come to defend, most of the time the drop has the time to kill the building. Could be interesting the building take the + armor of the carapace upgrade when research.
Corruptor change is needed. This units is a must have vs toss army but void/storm counter then so effectivly. Could be interesting corruption interrupt void charge/medivac boost. Broodlords are aslo too slow, they need some speedboost or ability to remorph into corruptor, or a decreased of the energy grap when casted on allied units could be cool.
On August 21 2013 04:12 p14c wrote: Blizzard: We want to see more mech so we buff the 2 zerg units that hardcounter mech: viper and Ultras! LOL! Good job David Kim! How many shoots are required for a tank to kill a Ultra now? It's getting ridiculous. What sane person thinks mech can be viable vs blinding cloud+Ultras? And the Protoss just needs mass Immortals and it's an autowin...
Unsieged tanks are actually good against ultras, what are u talking bout ?
On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: Its funny, I used to be a whiner too.
For people who seem to be hopeless, why don't you just think about the situation for a little bit.
What's hard for Bio players? In high level PvT games, constant late game zealot warpins are extremely difficult to deal with because you have to stutter step on 2 Fronts. Which requires an ungodly level of APM.
Overlord speed buff: You will probably get it now, why not use it with overseers. You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.
Now, you have more than 2 minutes of breathing room to sneak a hive and ultra den up earlier. Survive for just a little bit longer, and get ventral sacs.
Then since you have OL speed already, drop overlords with ultras 1 or 2 at a time to camp terran production. Now terran has to multitask at 2 fronts if you attack. Mutalisk harass. 3 Fronts. Ling/Bling runby. 4 fronts. See how hard it gets now?
Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way.
eerm no you dont? contaminate is 30 sec and 125 energy. simply not worth morphing extra overseers for that purpose. just get hive and your own 3 3. obv your 1 overseer that is with your mutas can contaminate...problem is your mutas wont even be at your opponents base since you need to defend all game long...which btw wont change with small overseer and even smaller ultra buff (1 more immo shot, 3 (?) more rauder shots lol)
On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.
This example makes it clear you have no idea about the matchup.
You need 10 contaminates to delay 3/3 by 150 seconds. Since an overseer would take over 4 minutes to build up a second contaminate, we assume each overseer contaminates once. That's 500 gas spent in advance on units that contribute 0 to any engagement, plus the gas of mutas you're using to bait (???) turrets (rather than inflict damage or defend drops).
So IF the terran for some reason decides not to build any more turrets near his ebay, you can spend about 2000 gas to buy you 2.5 minutes before t3. If you're on 3 bases, that's more than the gas income of 6 geysers over those 2.5 minutes.
When your biggest difficulty is having to sacrifice gas units to deal with mineral units, spending a large amount of gas to inflict no damage is pretty absurd.
spire should allow hive as well as infestation pit. will allow easier transition for ling/bane/muta ZvT to get to 3-3. zerg has a hard enough time getting to 3-3, it should be made easier
The Zerg buffs are anti 4M so maybe it forces Terran to transition out of it (earlier) or come up with other strategies. - The overseer speed buff is anti widow mine. - The ultra buff is to make the ultra transition easier. The upgrade buff is just to buff mech, mostly in TvP.
I disagree with almost everything they're proposing in this balancing patch...it seems like Blizzard is only looking at TvZ, but how is change to Z going to affect PvZ? I mean ya sure ultra buff is to a tier 3 late game unit, but the ultra counters almost everything except for immortals in the protoss arsenal... the extra 50 hp means a huge difference in PvZ if Zerg rushes ultra tech now... Looks like Protoss would just have to rely even more on void rays...
On August 21 2013 04:49 Penev wrote: The Zerg buffs are anti 4M so maybe it forces Terran to transition out of it (earlier) or come up with other strategies. - The overseer speed buff is anti widow mine. - The ultra buff is to make the ultra transition easier. The upgrade buff is just to buff mech, mostly in TvP.
That's about it I guess?
The zerg changes don't deal with the issues of the terran push.
Ya i think ultras are an amazing unit and most of zergs weaknesses lie in the delicate late game transition to ultras were their army is not ultra heavy enough to crush through entrenched terran positions off creep but also has enough ultras that the mutas have begun to phase out and zerg starts trading mobility for having a powerful army in direct engagements. honestly I think it would be better to give zerg slight buffs to other units or improve less used units like the hydra rather than to make an already amazing face crushing unit even more amazing and face crushing. maxed ultras are a truly terrifying thing its mostly the delicate transition to the that ideal ultra infestor composition that is hurting zerg. on the other hand im not sure if i could think of what kind of buff you would give zerg to deal with this without creating the same problem that the queen patch had were if you buff a races vulnerabilities you can make it impossible for other races to ever stop their ultimate god mode transition of death. maybe buffing the high end units is the only none game breaking thing they could think of.
On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: Its funny, I used to be a whiner too.
For people who seem to be hopeless, why don't you just think about the situation for a little bit.
What's hard for Bio players? In high level PvT games, constant late game zealot warpins are extremely difficult to deal with because you have to stutter step on 2 Fronts. Which requires an ungodly level of APM.
Overlord speed buff: You will probably get it now, why not use it with overseers. You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.
Now, you have more than 2 minutes of breathing room to sneak a hive and ultra den up earlier. Survive for just a little bit longer, and get ventral sacs.
Then since you have OL speed already, drop overlords with ultras 1 or 2 at a time to camp terran production. Now terran has to multitask at 2 fronts if you attack. Mutalisk harass. 3 Fronts. Ling/Bling runby. 4 fronts. See how hard it gets now?
Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way.
eerm no you dont? contaminate is 30 sec and 125 energy. simply not worth morphing extra overseers for that purpose. just get hive and your own 3 3. obv your 1 overseer that is with your mutas can contaminate...problem is your mutas wont even be at your opponents base since you need to defend all game long...which btw wont change with small overseer and even smaller ultra buff (1 more immo shot, 3 (?) more rauder shots lol)
"you need to defend all game long" Wasn´t it supposed to be the oposite. Terran defending against hordes of zergs? Maybe this is what is wrong with TvZ?
I feel like Overseers should also get a weakened version of the Reaper's Combat Drugs (like 1.5-2 HP/sec when out of combat for 10 seconds).
If you want to buff Terran Mech vs Protoss, reduce Tank supply cost and maybe even raise the base damage. As it is now, Tanks do too little damage and cost too much supply versus Protoss. Or give them an ability to do extra shield damage instead of raising their damage. Like, before base damage is calculated, 20 shield damage is dealt. Then, Immortals tank 3 hits before taking the 50 HP damage from Tanks. Also, Tanks would basically be doing up to 70 damage to shielded Protoss units (30 to Immortals, 55 to Zealots). The first change that should be tried is reducing the supply cost.
I like the idea of buffing Vipers, cause they're a fun unit. But they also have issues outside of the energy needed to use their abilities. I know Blizzard is against reviving BW units, but Dark Swarm worked better than Blinding cloud. Maybe change Blinding Cloud so that units inside it have a 66% chance to miss? This makes Siege Tanks next to useless, instead of 100% useless, and doesn't auto suicide Marines into Banelings while still punishing Terrans who don't countermicro. Vipers aren't used in ZvT, and that's something I'd like to see changed.
Buffing Ultras seems to be a bad way to go around things. Ultras are pretty strong as it is. Yes, as a tier 3 unit, they are a bit lacking against Terran, but they are also made fairly quickly. Buffing them would snowball things too much and players might even go full Ultras without support units like Infestors. Yes, the 50 HP buff likely won't push the game over that far, but I'd rather see a support unit buffed or reworked (like the Viper)
Also, Protoss needs a buff to deal with Swarm Hosts. Otherwise, Protoss is fine. My suggestion is to add Shield Generators (building), that (at the cost of energy with cooldown) creates an exterior shield (separate from the normal shield) that absorbs damage and increases regular shield generation while the external shield is active (shield does not work on Shield Generator). The Shield Generator may only be built within 5 range of a Nexus, and the Generator's shield cast range is 6 units with AoE of 4. The shield lasts until broken or until the unit walks outside of 13 range of the Generator. Basically, the idea is that Protoss will be able to defend their base, instead of slowly dying at the edge of their base. However, once they leave the base, they need enough units to push through the Swarm Host army. Swarm Host supply cost may be changed to balance the exchange of resources that will happen in these battles. I think it'd be cool to see Protoss build up an army, then push out to meet the Swarm Host army, followed either by the Protoss retreating and regrouping, or the Zerg uprooting and retreating, throwing down Blinding Clouds (or something better) to cover their retreat. Swarm Host movement speed may also need to be buffed.
Also, buffing Baneling morph times was mentioned. I'm thoroughly against this unless it's at least a Hive tech upgrade (costing 50/50 or 100/100, a high cost may later be deemed necessary, but at the moment I feel like delaying the timing of such an upgrade is sufficient, since the morph time isn't an issue until Terran has full 3 base infrastructure). This also allows Zerg to "build" up their Hive tech slowly, instead of having Hive tech as a massive resource and tech dump. You could get the Baneling Upgrade+Vipers, then the 3/3, then Adrenal Glands+Ultralisks/Broodlords. Although, 3/3 is a fairly important upgrade to have, so maybe reduce Hive cost to compensate for this. Hive shouldn't be a "OMG! HE HAS HIVE! NOW HE'S GOING FOR MAX TECH!" It should be more like, he has Hive, now he can set himself up slowly for max tech. There's so much emphasis on getting Hive FOR Hive Tech. But Hive tech is so expensive, you really need to build yourself fairly large breathing room to safely get Hive tech. If we add in cheaper, and easier to obtain, Hive tech that assists in generating that breathing room to get to full Hive tech, the game may be more interesting. It'll be like, "He has Hive tech now! Let's see how he uses it to defend until he can get Ultras/Broodlords!"
That, or we create an upper Lair tier, which requires the Infestation Pit, or an Upgraded Infestation Pit (we can call it the Viper Nest; Hive would only require Infestation Pit?). We can dump all the intermediate upgrades here (like Adrenal Glands, Baneling Morph time, and MAYBE 3/3), and let Hive just be the tech that unlocks the lategame monsters Zerg has. The Viper Nest probably should only cost nothing but time (a small investment of resources can be added, maybe just Minerals).
As it is, the jump from Lair to Hive is huge (and in close enough games, entertaining to watch). The jump from Hatchery to Lair isn't nearly as big, so we could create intermediate steps from Lair to Hive to make it a smoother transition.
On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: Its funny, I used to be a whiner too.
For people who seem to be hopeless, why don't you just think about the situation for a little bit.
What's hard for Bio players? In high level PvT games, constant late game zealot warpins are extremely difficult to deal with because you have to stutter step on 2 Fronts. Which requires an ungodly level of APM.
Overlord speed buff: You will probably get it now, why not use it with overseers. You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.
Now, you have more than 2 minutes of breathing room to sneak a hive and ultra den up earlier. Survive for just a little bit longer, and get ventral sacs.
Then since you have OL speed already, drop overlords with ultras 1 or 2 at a time to camp terran production. Now terran has to multitask at 2 fronts if you attack. Mutalisk harass. 3 Fronts. Ling/Bling runby. 4 fronts. See how hard it gets now?
Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way.
eerm no you dont? contaminate is 30 sec and 125 energy. simply not worth morphing extra overseers for that purpose. just get hive and your own 3 3. obv your 1 overseer that is with your mutas can contaminate...problem is your mutas wont even be at your opponents base since you need to defend all game long...which btw wont change with small overseer and even smaller ultra buff (1 more immo shot, 3 (?) more rauder shots lol)
"you need to defend all game long" Wasn´t it supposed to be the oposite. Terran defending against hordes of zergs? Maybe this is what is wrong with TvZ?
Lots of people said the same thing in WoL when this relationship was established, but it took on the role of Zerg being a growing force that would overwhelm you in no time if left unchecked, so T had to do whatever he could to keep it down. I think it's equally 'zergy' in that respect. It would be improper for HotS to reverse this
The reason this relationship exists is that Terran has:
1) Far more difficult means of producing army
2) More cost+supply efficient army in a direct engagement
3) Cheaper + more effective + safer means of harassment
Modifying these would be a huge change to the fundamentals of the matchup; it will not be done.
Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.
What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one?
i think what they are tyring to say is that zerg tend to get pulled apart by 2 or three pronged aggression right as they are transitioning to the 3-3 ultra comp this usually causes them to die before hive tech can really get rolling and its how most zerg loose to terran, a big part of why this happens in blizzards eyes is that its just straight up to hard for zerg to micro against a bio mine comp on three fronts while injecting and keeping up creep spread. because of this they want to make this stage of the game less apm intensive by making ultras have more health so they take less babysitting.
On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: Its funny, I used to be a whiner too.
For people who seem to be hopeless, why don't you just think about the situation for a little bit.
What's hard for Bio players? In high level PvT games, constant late game zealot warpins are extremely difficult to deal with because you have to stutter step on 2 Fronts. Which requires an ungodly level of APM.
Overlord speed buff: You will probably get it now, why not use it with overseers. You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.
Now, you have more than 2 minutes of breathing room to sneak a hive and ultra den up earlier. Survive for just a little bit longer, and get ventral sacs.
Then since you have OL speed already, drop overlords with ultras 1 or 2 at a time to camp terran production. Now terran has to multitask at 2 fronts if you attack. Mutalisk harass. 3 Fronts. Ling/Bling runby. 4 fronts. See how hard it gets now?
Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way.
eerm no you dont? contaminate is 30 sec and 125 energy. simply not worth morphing extra overseers for that purpose. just get hive and your own 3 3. obv your 1 overseer that is with your mutas can contaminate...problem is your mutas wont even be at your opponents base since you need to defend all game long...which btw wont change with small overseer and even smaller ultra buff (1 more immo shot, 3 (?) more rauder shots lol)
"you need to defend all game long" Wasn´t it supposed to be the oposite. Terran defending against hordes of zergs? Maybe this is what is wrong with TvZ?
No, it's not. If the game were designed to be the opposite, but somehow balanced, it'd always end in a draw.
It would be the Terran playing tower defense off of 2-3 bases while the Zerg takes everything else on the map and trades like 120 supply for like 20 supply. But if the Terran wants to win, he has to move out. To make it balanced so Terran isn't a walking Tank, the Terran has to be strong when it's set up (like Siege Mode). The instant Terran moves out, Zerg swarms the army while it's weak and wins. The Terran will never do this, and therefore sets up camp forever. The result is Zerg either tries to swarm in, fails, and loses to the weak, unsieged Terran army, or he chooses not to push in, and we have a stalemate.
And Terran defending endless swarms of Zerg from the middle of the map, not likely to ever happen. Terran doesn't have that much strength to defend a location without reinforcements. And if they did, Zerg would just base race.
On August 20 2013 13:36 Ouija wrote: IMO all changes are unnecessary besides maybe the overseer speed buff. Combining air and mech attack upgrades does nothing to make mech stronger since mech units build out of a factory. Additionally, now terran can freely switch into 3/3 air after playing mech and turtling. The ultralisk health buff also feels a bit useless as I feel the unit is completely fine as is.
Response to timoi210 -- Maybe every single Zerg player should stop trying to play mass ling muta vs terran, teching up to hive is actually quite easy when you don't spend 1600+ gas on mutas and who know how much on banelings throughout the game. Widow mines and marines crush mutas and lings and when almost every terran plays bio mine style ling bane muta seems stupid to me. I don't like to criticize such high level players like jaedong but I felt like polt showed in the WCS America Finals how bad muta/ling/bane is against good bio mine players, and it also showed how stupid top level zergs are to do the same exact thing every single game. There are plenty of other strategies zergs can use vs T.
This isn't WOL buddy "Playing mech and turtling...":There are such things as Vipers and Swarm Hosts. My games TvZ mech rarely get above the 15-20 minute mark before it is obvious someone is blatantly ahead. Lending 3/3 in air to making a large difference is of little impact. Transition into BC versus Zerg is rare unless the map is split, in which case every race will likely have 3/3 at that point. Let me know a good 3/3 BC timing versus Zerg, OK?
On August 21 2013 04:49 Penev wrote: The Zerg buffs are anti 4M so maybe it forces Terran to transition out of it (earlier) or come up with other strategies. - The overseer speed buff is anti widow mine. - The ultra buff is to make the ultra transition easier. The upgrade buff is just to buff mech, mostly in TvP.
That's about it I guess?
The zerg changes don't deal with the issues of the terran push.
Well, a little bit (and I mean little, I kinda agree with you); If you just managed to get the ultra's out but you had to invest too much gas into banelings and mutas (which basically is the problem) than maybe now you might just manage to stay alive more often. You gotta admit; It makes more sense than the viper buff! :D
On August 21 2013 04:49 Penev wrote: The Zerg buffs are anti 4M so maybe it forces Terran to transition out of it (earlier) or come up with other strategies. - The overseer speed buff is anti widow mine. - The ultra buff is to make the ultra transition easier. The upgrade buff is just to buff mech, mostly in TvP.
That's about it I guess?
I will tell you about the other strat of the terran to deal with ultralisks. It is subtle and requires a lot of starsense. Moar marauders.
Zergs are perfectly fine if they can survive long enough to transition into Ultralisks safely. Ultralisks have been perfectly fricking fine since 3-5 Ultralisks wreck high Marine count 4M. The problem has always been that Zerg has no effective transition up to Ultralisks because Infestors are completely useless once the Terran dodges the Fungals, which they've gotten amazing at since it's the exact same skill set as dodging Banelings, except easier. Mutalisks can't hold up against 3-3 Marines (and Terran will get 3-3 Marines before you have a sufficient flock (24+) of Mutalisks out, which also mean you'll not have the gas to get Hive. And in addition, your Mutalisks have absolutely no utility in the game because unless the Terran takes an extremely poor engagement, the Mutalisks have to stay at home helping you defend the onslaught of 4M. So the advantage you're supposed to get with Mutalisks (map vision, harassment) is completely nullified because all you can do is defend defend defend with them. Not to mention Widow Mines automatically come into play and can absolutely wreck Mutalisk flocks even better than Thors could, so there's no saving grace there. Roach and Hydralisk compositions don't trade nearly cost effectively enough once you're transitioning to Hive to supplement your army with Vipers, because with Vipers you stand a chance at trading decently, but you'll never get there because a 160 supply 4M push will wreck your 190 supply Roach Hydra mix before you can get Vipers out.
wtf are you doing Blizzard. 4M isn't imbalanced. We absolutely don't give a shit about balance. It's just completely stupid that Zerg just stands there taking absolute abuse from Terran for 10 minutes and hope to just trade evenly for that entire time, with a single non-cost efficient trade losing the game, until they rush out Ultralisks. Meanwhile, Terran just rallies units across the map with absolutely no regard, because even if you counter attack and kill 20-30 SCVs, they can still apply basically the same amount of pressure because MULEs. It's ridiculous. I don't care if your statistics say the matchup is even. There's nothing interesting, entertaining, or "fair" about the way the matchup works.
The Viper energy change simply meant Zergs would try to rush Hive as soon as possible and counter-bust the Terran with a 200/200 army Terran can't shoot. You're not addressing the fricking midgame where Terran rallies across the map. Basically, "we know your midtier units suck and have no chance so just rush to Hive as soon as possible". Zero strategic depth. Zero back-and-forth exchanges.
Late-game Zerg is great. You can get there on a 4 base economy (5th will spread you way too thin to a Terran that knows how to drop). If we can get to Ultralisks we actually have the ability to push Terran back towards his base. Getting there though makes absolutely no sense.
Ugh. It's so annoying watching absolutely nothing change. Give something to Zerg that can actually be useful in trading against 4M involving some sort of strategic depth or skill to utilize. Because at this point it's literally just Zerg hoping to God they trade evenly instead of actually involving strategy...
On August 21 2013 04:49 Penev wrote: The Zerg buffs are anti 4M so maybe it forces Terran to transition out of it (earlier) or come up with other strategies. - The overseer speed buff is anti widow mine. - The ultra buff is to make the ultra transition easier. The upgrade buff is just to buff mech, mostly in TvP.
That's about it I guess?
I will tell you about the other strat of the terran to deal with ultralisks. It is subtle and requires a lot of starsense. Moar marauders.
Just to make myself clear; I was just trying to follow Blizzards thinking and I think it must've been (something like) this. I'm not saying these changes will make 4M go away.
We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.
So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.
Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.
The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.
And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling
Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.
So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.
So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?
Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.
It seems a lot fairer to just require an Infestation Pit, since it fits more with the other races. Terrans are going to get a Factory anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 just require one step above that, which is an Armory. Protoss are absolutely going to get a Cybernetics Core anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 are just one step above that, which is a Twilight Council.
If Zergs are going to be going Lair in the midgame anyway, just let them be okay with 1 step above that, Infestation Pit. In this case, 3/3 will serve as a nice transition to Hive tech instead of Hive being a risky transition to 3/3.
i.e. it'll make it so that the Zerg 3/3 upgrades require the same amount of tier steps as Terran and Protoss.
Terran: 1. Command Center 2. Barracks 3. Factory 4. Armory.
Did they just give the tankiest unit in the game a health buff? Not only a unit that doesn't die, as is, but often times is accompanied by mass queens, giving it invincibility... I think immortals should do more damage against armored units! I also think archons should do more damage against bio! Make the colossus taller, too! Maybe SC 2 truly is dying, because apparently the designers/balancers no longer have a desire to play any games, either.
I wonder why they're not changing contaminate, it seems like it would be in line with all of Blizzard's various balance philosophies: promoting underused units/abilities, adding more multitasking to the game. And it also has the potential to let zerg delay terran 3/3 upgrades like a poster above mentioned.
I wish they would make the ultralisks have that skill that abominations have in the campaign, I remember it was called limber or something like that, it meant that small units could walk under it without colliding. It would make ultraling a lot more powerful.
On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote: We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.
So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.
Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.
The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.
And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling
Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.
So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.
So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?
Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.
When going for 3/3 at infestation pit, what about adrenaline glands? And is it regularly used anyway?
Ultralisks weren't already hard enough to deal with as Terran. /s
Making Zerg late game tech switches better when it's already the best in game isn't going to fix the problems in TvZ. Changes to widow mines or Zerg mid game need to happen, not ultra buffs.
On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote: We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.
So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.
Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.
The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.
And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling
Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.
So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.
So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?
Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.
When going for 3/3 at infestation pit, what about adrenaline glands? And is it regularly used anyway?
Keep everything else the same, including keeping Adrenaline Glands at Hive. Zergs should have SOME incentive to actually go to Hive instead of keeping at Ling/Bling/Muta all game long. Well, you know, some incentive besides Binding Cloud, that is.
I have never seen an argument that Adrenal Glands aren't good enough. For the most part, a lot of pros consistently seem to just forget about Adrenal Glands in the late game for some reason.
On August 21 2013 05:49 BlueBoxSC wrote: Ultralisks weren't already hard enough to deal with as Terran. /s
Making Zerg late game tech switches better when it's already the best in game isn't going to fix the problems in TvZ. Changes to widow mines or Zerg mid game need to happen, not ultra buffs.
I agree. Either nerf some part of 4M, or buff Zerg mid game units to be able to stand its own verses Terran. Ultra buffs are kind of unnecessary. They do help make TvZ a little more close to balanced, but still doesn't fix the glaring problem of T army just destroying Z army in terms of cost efficiency if combined with good micro on both sides.
I feel like a duration increase on fungal would be healthy so that infestion pit vs. drops would be easier on the zerg. It doesn't need more dmg so keep it where it is.
On August 21 2013 04:49 Penev wrote: The Zerg buffs are anti 4M so maybe it forces Terran to transition out of it (earlier) or come up with other strategies. - The overseer speed buff is anti widow mine. - The ultra buff is to make the ultra transition easier. The upgrade buff is just to buff mech, mostly in TvP.
That's about it I guess?
I will tell you about the other strat of the terran to deal with ultralisks. It is subtle and requires a lot of starsense. Moar marauders.
Just to make myself clear; I was just trying to follow Blizzards thinking and I think it must've been (something like) this. I'm not saying these changes will make 4M go away.
Oh, that explains it then. They should just fucking revert tank to their original status, remove drilling claws and allow 3/3 on lair tech imho. Drilling claws were added for high end tvp anyways.
Zerg would be a lot more cost effective against 4M if ling/bling/muta/infestor was feasible. But to do that this composition should cost less gas. Or the upgrades. So where to put the gas discount?
On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote: We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.
So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.
Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.
The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.
And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling
Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.
So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.
So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?
Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.
When going for 3/3 at infestation pit, what about adrenaline glands? And is it regularly used anyway?
Keep adrenal glands at Hive. It's an incredible DPS boost to any zergling based composition.
Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.
What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one?
No. It means that zerg have many tasks in the specific match up of ling/bling/muta vs bio/mine of: Queen injection Making sure to always have banelings ready Keeping an eye on terran forces moving out Constructing overseers/ keeping them alive
With this specific Terran composition (assuming your economy was established well enough towards the end of the mid game) mostly you are just macroing and focusing on different skirmishes throughout the map. There are fewer minor tasks to keep in mind as terran. With these compositions against each other, zerg definitely has more to worry about. The overseer buff just helps because the minor task of rebuilding overseers is way less of a hassle. Not a big difference but definitely fair.
On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote: We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.
So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.
Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.
The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.
And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling
Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.
So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.
So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?
Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.
When going for 3/3 at infestation pit, what about adrenaline glands? And is it regularly used anyway?
Keep adrenal glands at Hive. It's an incredible DPS boost to any zergling based composition.
On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote: We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.
So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.
Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.
The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.
And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling
Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.
So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.
So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?
Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.
When going for 3/3 at infestation pit, what about adrenaline glands? And is it regularly used anyway?
Keep everything else the same, including keeping Adrenaline Glands at Hive. Zergs should have SOME incentive to actually go to Hive instead of keeping at Ling/Bling/Muta all game long. Well, you know, some incentive besides Binding Cloud, that is.
I have never seen an argument that Adrenal Glands aren't good enough. For the most part, a lot of pros consistently seem to just forget about Adrenal Glands in the late game for some reason.
There are plenty of arguments about Adrenal Glands not being good enough. Here's a few:
Adrenal glands costs 200/200 and provides Zerglings and ONLY Zerglings with a minor DPS buff when they stand still.
Problem 1) Zerglings rarely have the opportunity to stand still when fighting against a kiting bio army, so the reduction in attack speed cooldown is useless in this scenario.
Problem 2) for the same cost of 200/200 I can get +3 melee which gives me MORE, UNCONDITIONAL damage than adrenal glands.
Problem 3) +3 melee affects Zerglings, Banelings, Ultralisks, and Broodlings, making it not only the better choice, but also a far more flexible choice.
Problem 4) Gas is a precious resource. When I have to spend 25 gas per baneling, 100 gas per mutalisk, 150 gas per infestor, 200 gas per ultralisk, and 250 gas per brood lord, and all this gas is used to counter a 50 mineral unit that gets pumped out literally by the dozen, I don't exactly have 200 gas lying around begging to be used on upgrades, especially the useless ones.
Pros don't forget about the upgrade, it's just so terrible, it's not worth investing in until after you have Ultralisks, Chitinous Plating, a Greater Spire, air upgrades, and all the T3 units you want. At that point, it MIGHT be worth investing the 200 gas in a minorly useful Zergling attack speed upgrade.
The same goes for the other options that people love to point to like Nydus (300 gas for the first worm), drops (200 gas just to turn the ability on), and to a lesser extent, burrow.
It's not that these abilities are useless, it's that nobody can afford them with the huge economic investment required to fight 4M armies.
I think they should really look at the infestor. Right now it's really only good for fungal. For the purpose of targeting single units, abduct seems make Neural parasite useless. Also while infested terrans were a problem in the past, I think the strategy of throwing mass eggs at expansions was fun to watch. Perhaps they could play around with the idea bring back the upgrades on the infested terrans, but thinker the damage a bit. 1 way they could go about it is either reduce the starting damage to 7 or 6. Another way is to double the damage to 16 but double the cool down, that way the 0/0 damage is the same, but they get half the dps increase from upgrades.
On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote: We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.
So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.
Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.
The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.
And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling
Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.
So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.
So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?
Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.
It seems a lot fairer to just require an Infestation Pit, since it fits more with the other races. Terrans are going to get a Factory anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 just require one step above that, which is an Armory. Protoss are absolutely going to get a Cybernetics Core anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 are just one step above that, which is a Twilight Council.
If Zergs are going to be going Lair in the midgame anyway, just let them be okay with 1 step above that, Infestation Pit. In this case, 3/3 will serve as a nice transition to Hive tech instead of Hive being a risky transition to 3/3.
i.e. it'll make it so that the Zerg 3/3 upgrades require the same amount of tier steps as Terran and Protoss.
Terran: 1. Command Center 2. Barracks 3. Factory 4. Armory.
Zerg 1. Hatchery 2. Spawning Pool 3. Lair 4. Infestation Pit.
Well said! Seriously. You're right on point exactly where zerg struggles and terran bio. Its really difficult to get 3/3 for zerg and get a midgame flock of mutas. Not to mention the gas invested into banes to stay alive.
On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: Its funny, I used to be a whiner too.
For people who seem to be hopeless, why don't you just think about the situation for a little bit.
What's hard for Bio players? In high level PvT games, constant late game zealot warpins are extremely difficult to deal with because you have to stutter step on 2 Fronts. Which requires an ungodly level of APM.
Overlord speed buff: You will probably get it now, why not use it with overseers. You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.
Now, you have more than 2 minutes of breathing room to sneak a hive and ultra den up earlier. Survive for just a little bit longer, and get ventral sacs.
Then since you have OL speed already, drop overlords with ultras 1 or 2 at a time to camp terran production. Now terran has to multitask at 2 fronts if you attack. Mutalisk harass. 3 Fronts. Ling/Bling runby. 4 fronts. See how hard it gets now?
Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way.
Are you really actually telling us to use ultralisk drop harass?
On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: Its funny, I used to be a whiner too.
For people who seem to be hopeless, why don't you just think about the situation for a little bit.
What's hard for Bio players? In high level PvT games, constant late game zealot warpins are extremely difficult to deal with because you have to stutter step on 2 Fronts. Which requires an ungodly level of APM.
Overlord speed buff: You will probably get it now, why not use it with overseers. You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.
Now, you have more than 2 minutes of breathing room to sneak a hive and ultra den up earlier. Survive for just a little bit longer, and get ventral sacs.
Then since you have OL speed already, drop overlords with ultras 1 or 2 at a time to camp terran production. Now terran has to multitask at 2 fronts if you attack. Mutalisk harass. 3 Fronts. Ling/Bling runby. 4 fronts. See how hard it gets now?
Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way.
Are you really actually telling us to use ultralisk drop harass?
I think Zerg melee and ranged upgrades should be merged into one upgrade. Gives Zerg midgame more flexibility, which admittedly it needs more than a buff to its lategame punch.
What? I really don't think this is more ridiculous than merging mech air and ground ugrades...
On August 21 2013 04:09 THEPPLsELBOW wrote: Its funny, I used to be a whiner too.
For people who seem to be hopeless, why don't you just think about the situation for a little bit.
What's hard for Bio players? In high level PvT games, constant late game zealot warpins are extremely difficult to deal with because you have to stutter step on 2 Fronts. Which requires an ungodly level of APM.
Overlord speed buff: You will probably get it now, why not use it with overseers. You carry overseers with the mutas anyways. Mutas to distract the turrets, maybe snipe one or two. Overseers contaminate Ebays. Do this twice and delay 3/3 by 150 seconds.
Now, you have more than 2 minutes of breathing room to sneak a hive and ultra den up earlier. Survive for just a little bit longer, and get ventral sacs.
Then since you have OL speed already, drop overlords with ultras 1 or 2 at a time to camp terran production. Now terran has to multitask at 2 fronts if you attack. Mutalisk harass. 3 Fronts. Ling/Bling runby. 4 fronts. See how hard it gets now?
Survive until Ultras. Utilize buffed units (overseer, Ultras) and suddenly, the game slowly but surely goes your way.
Are you really actually telling us to use ultralisk drop harass?
amazing
I think we have found Catz' TL account.
I don't care what anyone says, I want to believe that ultralisk drop harass is real and viable. It to funny not to be.
....They don't even fit in the overlords. They are like 3 times the size on screen.
What I find very funny, is that there is absolutely no intention to look at TvP and PvZ. It seems that Blizzard actually like the current state of the Protoss matchups.
On August 21 2013 06:15 Sajaki wrote: I think Zerg melee and ranged upgrades should be merged into one upgrade. Gives Zerg midgame more flexibility, which admittedly it needs more than a buff to its lategame punch.
ewww I don't like that buff at all, even if it would help balance-wise. It just feels like it dumbs down the game and removes more of the complexity of asymmetric balance.
Zerg should have exclusive melee and ranged upgrades since it's the best at tech switching. It's more understandable for Protoss to have the attack upgrade merged, since they're more geared towards high-powered-expensive units.
On August 21 2013 06:15 Sajaki wrote: I think Zerg melee and ranged upgrades should be merged into one upgrade. Gives Zerg midgame more flexibility, which admittedly it needs more than a buff to its lategame punch.
On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote: We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.
So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.
Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.
The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.
And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling
Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.
So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.
So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?
Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.
It seems a lot fairer to just require an Infestation Pit, since it fits more with the other races. Terrans are going to get a Factory anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 just require one step above that, which is an Armory. Protoss are absolutely going to get a Cybernetics Core anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 are just one step above that, which is a Twilight Council.
If Zergs are going to be going Lair in the midgame anyway, just let them be okay with 1 step above that, Infestation Pit. In this case, 3/3 will serve as a nice transition to Hive tech instead of Hive being a risky transition to 3/3.
i.e. it'll make it so that the Zerg 3/3 upgrades require the same amount of tier steps as Terran and Protoss.
Terran: 1. Command Center 2. Barracks 3. Factory 4. Armory.
On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote: We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.
So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.
Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.
The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.
And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling
Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.
So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.
So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?
Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.
It seems a lot fairer to just require an Infestation Pit, since it fits more with the other races. Terrans are going to get a Factory anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 just require one step above that, which is an Armory. Protoss are absolutely going to get a Cybernetics Core anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 are just one step above that, which is a Twilight Council.
If Zergs are going to be going Lair in the midgame anyway, just let them be okay with 1 step above that, Infestation Pit. In this case, 3/3 will serve as a nice transition to Hive tech instead of Hive being a risky transition to 3/3.
i.e. it'll make it so that the Zerg 3/3 upgrades require the same amount of tier steps as Terran and Protoss.
Terran: 1. Command Center 2. Barracks 3. Factory 4. Armory.
Zerg 1. Hatchery 2. Spawning Pool 3. Lair 4. Infestation Pit.
as i've said countless times - just allow hive from spire
It doesn't make sense for tech to be unlocked from one of two possible buildings, there has been nothing like that in all of Starcraft (or Warcraft for that matter). It seems like a fix for the only purpose of fixing one matchup which is bad especially because the fix itself is awkward and unprecedented.
On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote: We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.
So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.
Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.
The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.
And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling
Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.
So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.
So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?
Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.
It seems a lot fairer to just require an Infestation Pit, since it fits more with the other races. Terrans are going to get a Factory anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 just require one step above that, which is an Armory. Protoss are absolutely going to get a Cybernetics Core anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 are just one step above that, which is a Twilight Council.
If Zergs are going to be going Lair in the midgame anyway, just let them be okay with 1 step above that, Infestation Pit. In this case, 3/3 will serve as a nice transition to Hive tech instead of Hive being a risky transition to 3/3.
i.e. it'll make it so that the Zerg 3/3 upgrades require the same amount of tier steps as Terran and Protoss.
Terran: 1. Command Center 2. Barracks 3. Factory 4. Armory.
Zerg 1. Hatchery 2. Spawning Pool 3. Lair 4. Infestation Pit.
as i've said countless times - just allow hive from spire
It doesn't make sense for tech to be unlocked from one of two possible buildings, there has been nothing like that in all of Starcraft (or Warcraft for that matter). It seems like a fix for the only purpose of fixing one matchup which is bad especially because the fix itself is awkward and unprecedented.
why does it not make sense? the completion of the infestation pit discovers new knowledge about the zerg race, allowing hive.... oooh mysterious. ok so completion of the spire does the same?.... i dont see the issue
As a zerg in my opinion the biggest problem in ZvT are the new medivacs: They always escape, even if they arent managed that well. It was much harder in WOL to stay cost efficient with drops, now its basically free damage until there are mutas.
The problem here is that mutas are the only way to go in midgame, there are no alternatives. If medivac-count will go too high, as zerg you are most likely dead. Maybe a slight buff to infestors would be the way to go, as they are right now they are pretty useless...
I'm usually a proponent of buffs over nerfs, but really the problem with ZvT is that mines are insanely strong. Compare a widow mine to a baneling: similar cost, both can be burrowed, similar tech level. However, widow mines do significantly more damage, will auto-attack from burrowed, are reuseable, can hit air. widow mines are really, really strong, and imo in need of a nerf. not too much (because tvz is pretty ok) but a little one.
On August 20 2013 13:41 Nightsz wrote: what the FUCK? Ultralisk life buff? Jesus christ what hell are they thinking. Its fucking strong as fuck already
As Idra explained on stream, Mariens and mines are pretty expendable units, whereas medivacs are the true backbone of a terran army, if you kill those then it can really hurt the terran.
Medivac boost is the stupidest thing. Why is it in the game? It's pretty much the reason that Photon Overcharge is in the game at all...
They made Muta faster. They introduced Medivac boost for God knows what reason... so they could escape from Muta? Then they gave Protoss Photon Overcharge to deal with faster Medivacs and faster Muta? Now Terran complains they can't drop because of Photon Overcharge and Zerg complains they have to go Muta because of Medivacs.
On August 21 2013 07:30 DinoMight wrote: Medivac boost is the stupidest thing. Why is it in the game? It's pretty much the reason that Photon Overcharge is in the game at all...
They made Muta faster. They introduced Medivac boost for God knows what reason... so they could escape from Muta? Then they gave Protoss Photon Overcharge to deal with faster Medivacs and faster Muta? Now Terran complains they can't drop because of Photon Overcharge and Zerg complains they have to go Muta because of Medivacs.
My BRAIN HURTS
I seriously do not understand why people complain about medivac boost so much. The medivacs are not coming out any faster. The medivacs are not getting to your base that much faster. If you have units in place like you would for medivac drops in WoL you can shut them down the same way. Mutalisks will STILL catch a medivac in the open when the boost is gone. If anything it helps terran so they can retreat and at least keep the medivacs instead of losing everything in a fight.
The two first changes are ok imo (not that they are gonna change that much tho).
regarding the ultra buff i dunno,its like 2 more marauders shots and sometimes when i kill the ultra i'm at the extreme limit,i couldn't have kite 2 more times,so that would mean i'd die...well we'll see i guess.
On August 21 2013 07:30 DinoMight wrote: Medivac boost is the stupidest thing. Why is it in the game? It's pretty much the reason that Photon Overcharge is in the game at all...
They made Muta faster. They introduced Medivac boost for God knows what reason... so they could escape from Muta? Then they gave Protoss Photon Overcharge to deal with faster Medivacs and faster Muta? Now Terran complains they can't drop because of Photon Overcharge and Zerg complains they have to go Muta because of Medivacs.
My BRAIN HURTS
I seriously do not understand why people complain about medivac boost so much. The medivacs are not coming out any faster. The medivacs are not getting to your base that much faster. If you have units in place like you would for medivac drops in WoL you can shut them down the same way. Mutalisks will STILL catch a medivac in the open when the boost is gone. If anything it helps terran so they can retreat and at least keep the medivacs instead of losing everything in a fight.
It makes the possibility of drops going out of control way higher. Even the best zergs in the world will crumble eventually once the medivacs number gets too high cause its impossible to defend all locations. With medivac boosters the terran will get away most of the time.
I think the key thing they need to change for the tvz match up is the viper. atm it hard counters mech and does nothing against bio. what they need to do is find a middle ground where it is effective against both bio and mech but does not completely wreck them. If only they listened to the ideas that come up here though. i have seen several ideas to how it could be changed to make it a good skill here on the forums but it seems like its falling on deaf ears, the buffs here are good ones but they wont make a huge difference in pro level play.
On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote: We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.
So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.
Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.
The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.
And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling
Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.
So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.
So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?
Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.
It seems a lot fairer to just require an Infestation Pit, since it fits more with the other races. Terrans are going to get a Factory anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 just require one step above that, which is an Armory. Protoss are absolutely going to get a Cybernetics Core anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 are just one step above that, which is a Twilight Council.
If Zergs are going to be going Lair in the midgame anyway, just let them be okay with 1 step above that, Infestation Pit. In this case, 3/3 will serve as a nice transition to Hive tech instead of Hive being a risky transition to 3/3.
i.e. it'll make it so that the Zerg 3/3 upgrades require the same amount of tier steps as Terran and Protoss.
Terran: 1. Command Center 2. Barracks 3. Factory 4. Armory.
Zerg 1. Hatchery 2. Spawning Pool 3. Lair 4. Infestation Pit.
as i've said countless times - just allow hive from spire
It doesn't make sense for tech to be unlocked from one of two possible buildings, there has been nothing like that in all of Starcraft (or Warcraft for that matter). It seems like a fix for the only purpose of fixing one matchup which is bad especially because the fix itself is awkward and unprecedented.
Pretty much this. Letting you to also get Hive from Spire is just a bad idea. It doesn't make any sense, no other tech tree is like that.
in case no one has brought it up, ultralisks, at least for me, are an issue in PvZ. zergs will stay on lings and go straight for fast ultra, while i try to prepare for roach or hydra or SH or muta. maybe it's just me, but i already can't figure out how to efficiently deal with ultralisks.
Aside from considering moving the Viper to Lair tech, there's another route they could go. One that's been a very long time coming....they buff the corruptor.
I seem to recall David Kim mentioning that they wanted to change that unit for HotS because it was so boring to watch compared to Vikings and Phoenixes in WoL. HotS came. Nothing was done and it seems to have just flown under the radar since.
I've watched Yugioh go roach/ling/bane/corruptor before and thought if corrutors were just a little bit better this could really have potential. If they just had some other advantage over mutas besides being able to tank more damage to snipe medivacs during engagements. Hell you could maybe even still go muta/ling but mix these in as support casters. So what I prepose:
- Corruption cooldown is increased from 45s to 70s - The duration remains at 30s - The cost of a Corruptor is increased from 150/100 to 200/100 - Corruptor speed is increased from 2.9531 to 3 (same as a speed roach off creep. Could help a little with medivac sniping) - Corruption is now an aoe projectile that reduces all upgrades (attack/armor/shields) by 1 with a radius of 2. (Essentially fungal growth with a different effect). Additionally, it doesn't stack and is capped at 0/0/0 reduction.
The unit is now more interesting to watch, very accessible at Lair (especially since you're likely to get a spire in both ZvT and ZvP), has a unique role as the only unit that can debuff upgrades, and would have even better lategame utility.
Maybe the stats I'm preposing are a bit off, but that's not really what's important. It's the concept. Essentially, I'm looking for something similar to the Devourer that's pre-Hive.
On August 21 2013 08:42 fenix404 wrote: in case no one has brought it up, ultralisks, at least for me, are an issue in PvZ. zergs will stay on lings and go straight for fast ultra, while i try to prepare for roach or hydra or SH or muta. maybe it's just me, but i already can't figure out how to efficiently deal with ultralisks.
You can buff late game Z all you want but if they cant get to the late game somewhat safely, then the ultra buff is useless. Zerg needs some sort of mid game buff against T to help them out.
On August 21 2013 08:42 fenix404 wrote: in case no one has brought it up, ultralisks, at least for me, are an issue in PvZ. zergs will stay on lings and go straight for fast ultra, while i try to prepare for roach or hydra or SH or muta. maybe it's just me, but i already can't figure out how to efficiently deal with ultralisks.
some help here would be good...
It's really not hard for protoss to deal with ultralisks.
Archon/immortal/templar/colossi/voidray deals well with ultra based compositions. Like yeah This health buff is 1 extra immortal shot, not that big of a deal.
Don't know if this is the right solution to try and fix zvt, but at least blizzard is aware.
On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote: We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.
So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.
Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.
The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.
And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling
Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.
So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.
So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?
Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.
It seems a lot fairer to just require an Infestation Pit, since it fits more with the other races. Terrans are going to get a Factory anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 just require one step above that, which is an Armory. Protoss are absolutely going to get a Cybernetics Core anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 are just one step above that, which is a Twilight Council.
If Zergs are going to be going Lair in the midgame anyway, just let them be okay with 1 step above that, Infestation Pit. In this case, 3/3 will serve as a nice transition to Hive tech instead of Hive being a risky transition to 3/3.
i.e. it'll make it so that the Zerg 3/3 upgrades require the same amount of tier steps as Terran and Protoss.
Terran: 1. Command Center 2. Barracks 3. Factory 4. Armory.
Zerg 1. Hatchery 2. Spawning Pool 3. Lair 4. Infestation Pit.
as i've said countless times - just allow hive from spire
It doesn't make sense for tech to be unlocked from one of two possible buildings, there has been nothing like that in all of Starcraft (or Warcraft for that matter). It seems like a fix for the only purpose of fixing one matchup which is bad especially because the fix itself is awkward and unprecedented.
Pretty much this. Letting you to also get Hive from Spire is just a bad idea. It doesn't make any sense, no other tech tree is like that.
While I don't necessarily agree with the poster that spire unlocking hive would be a good change, saying "it's just a bad idea" and "no other tech tree is like that" or "it's unprecedented" is literally the worst kind of feedback to give on an idea.
Basically you just argued "it's bad because it's bad" and then "it's bad because it's different".
On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote: We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.
So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.
Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.
The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.
And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling
Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.
So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.
So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?
Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.
It seems a lot fairer to just require an Infestation Pit, since it fits more with the other races. Terrans are going to get a Factory anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 just require one step above that, which is an Armory. Protoss are absolutely going to get a Cybernetics Core anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 are just one step above that, which is a Twilight Council.
If Zergs are going to be going Lair in the midgame anyway, just let them be okay with 1 step above that, Infestation Pit. In this case, 3/3 will serve as a nice transition to Hive tech instead of Hive being a risky transition to 3/3.
i.e. it'll make it so that the Zerg 3/3 upgrades require the same amount of tier steps as Terran and Protoss.
Terran: 1. Command Center 2. Barracks 3. Factory 4. Armory.
Zerg 1. Hatchery 2. Spawning Pool 3. Lair 4. Infestation Pit.
as i've said countless times - just allow hive from spire
It doesn't make sense for tech to be unlocked from one of two possible buildings, there has been nothing like that in all of Starcraft (or Warcraft for that matter). It seems like a fix for the only purpose of fixing one matchup which is bad especially because the fix itself is awkward and unprecedented.
Pretty much this. Letting you to also get Hive from Spire is just a bad idea. It doesn't make any sense, no other tech tree is like that.
Personally I just don't like it since it can have very big consequences such as hive rushes behind muta harass or things like that. It's a very open ended change that has effects on all the MUs. Ontop of that, I personally find it just a silly fix to TvZ to have to now have ultras to effectively stop a midgame terran, especially when ling bling muta handles it quite well until upgrade deficit starts kicking in(and is imo more fun to watch).
On August 21 2013 08:42 fenix404 wrote: in case no one has brought it up, ultralisks, at least for me, are an issue in PvZ. zergs will stay on lings and go straight for fast ultra, while i try to prepare for roach or hydra or SH or muta. maybe it's just me, but i already can't figure out how to efficiently deal with ultralisks.
some help here would be good...
It's really not hard for protoss to deal with ultralisks.
Archon/immortal/templar/colossi/voidray deals well with ultra based compositions. Like yeah This health buff is 1 extra immortal shot, not that big of a deal.
Don't know if this is the right solution to try and fix zvt, but at least blizzard is aware.
On August 21 2013 08:46 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Aside from considering moving the Viper to Lair tech, there's another route they could go. One that's been a very long time coming....they buff the corruptor.
I seem to recall David Kim mentioning that they wanted to change that unit for HotS because it was so boring to watch compared to Vikings and Phoenixes in WoL. HotS came. Nothing was done and it seems to have just flown under the radar since.
I've watched Yugioh go roach/ling/bane/corruptor before and thought if corrutors were just a little bit better this could really have potential. If they just had some other advantage over mutas besides being able to tank more damage to snipe medivacs during engagements. Hell you could maybe even still go muta/ling but mix these in as support casters. So what I prepose:
- Corruption cooldown is increased from 45s to 70s - The duration remains at 30s - The cost of a Corruptor is increased from 150/100 to 200/100 - Corruptor speed is increased from 2.9531 to 3 (same as a speed roach off creep. Could help a little with medivac sniping) - Corruption is now an aoe projectile that reduces all upgrades (attack/armor/shields) by 1 with a radius of 2. (Essentially fungal growth with a different effect). Additionally, it doesn't stack and is capped at 0/0/0 reduction.
The unit is now more interesting to watch, very accessible at Lair (especially since you're likely to get a spire in both ZvT and ZvP), has a unique role as the only unit that can debuff upgrades, and would have even better lategame utility.
Maybe the stats I'm preposing are a bit off, but that's not really what's important. It's the concept. Essentially, I'm looking for something similar to the Devourer that's pre-Hive.
I definitely see something like this being on the right track. Corruptors are, at present, the most useless unit in the game. What purpose do they serve now? All they do is basically provide a THE BROODLORDS ARE COMING signal to the opponent. I think that if the zerg had an additional useful unit it could solve a lot of problems. I also like these ideas too, maybe even make it go to (-1,-1,-1) as to really punish a player who doesnt upgrade
On August 21 2013 05:42 dabom88 wrote: We're all pretty much in agreement that the transition to Hive tech is where the balance problems are centered around.
So let's discuss Lair tech aka TvZ Midgame.
Now, during TvZ midgame, Terran Drops are aplenty. As HotS has shown time and time again, if you don't have a way to effectively deal with Medivac drops on an at least semi-consistent basis, you WILL lose. Whether it be in TvZ, TvP, or TvT.
The increased speed of the medivac, combined with the Fungal Growth nerf in the transition to HotS, makes it so that Mutas are almost absolutely necessary to combat it.
And Mutas go great with another mobile army, in this case, Ling/Bling
Now, Mutas/Ling/Bling matches up pretty well against MMMM, until you hit a certain point. And that certain point is when the Bio reaches 3/3. Zergs need 3/3 Melee in order to match up against MMMM, which becomes ridiculously cost-effective at 3/3. Otherwise they'll just be continuously fighting from a deficit.
So the fixes should be focused around Zerg 3/3 Melee/Ground armor.
So if the issue is 3/3, and Blizzard seems to want to approach HotS balance with a Buff approach (as opposed to nerfing) why not make 3/3 Melee/Ground armor at a slightly lower tier?
Let's experiment with 3/3 at Infestation Pit. At least for Melee and Ground Armor. It's certainly not going to effect early game too much, as Zergs are still going to need to go through 2/2 and getting an Infestation Pit. Heck, why not just try putting 3/3 for all Zerg units on Infestation Pit, and if it's too much, then scaling back to just Melee/Ground Armor.
It seems a lot fairer to just require an Infestation Pit, since it fits more with the other races. Terrans are going to get a Factory anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 just require one step above that, which is an Armory. Protoss are absolutely going to get a Cybernetics Core anyway, 2/2 and 3/3 are just one step above that, which is a Twilight Council.
If Zergs are going to be going Lair in the midgame anyway, just let them be okay with 1 step above that, Infestation Pit. In this case, 3/3 will serve as a nice transition to Hive tech instead of Hive being a risky transition to 3/3.
i.e. it'll make it so that the Zerg 3/3 upgrades require the same amount of tier steps as Terran and Protoss.
Terran: 1. Command Center 2. Barracks 3. Factory 4. Armory.
Zerg 1. Hatchery 2. Spawning Pool 3. Lair 4. Infestation Pit.
as i've said countless times - just allow hive from spire
It doesn't make sense for tech to be unlocked from one of two possible buildings, there has been nothing like that in all of Starcraft (or Warcraft for that matter). It seems like a fix for the only purpose of fixing one matchup which is bad especially because the fix itself is awkward and unprecedented.
Pretty much this. Letting you to also get Hive from Spire is just a bad idea. It doesn't make any sense, no other tech tree is like that.
Personally I just don't like it since it can have very big consequences such as hive rushes behind muta harass or things like that. It's a very open ended change that has effects on all the MUs. Ontop of that, I personally find it just a silly fix to TvZ to have to now have ultras to effectively stop a midgame terran, especially when ling bling muta handles it quite well until upgrade deficit starts kicking in(and is imo more fun to watch).
I think most people agree with you, and that's part of why the ultra change is so stupid.
While 4M vs ling/bling/muta is interesting, I personally would like to see something that counters the 4M composition but gets countered by tanks (like the roach/hydra, but if it were good vs bio). Now you have even more complex situations where both sides are ending up with even more complex armies, so we could get MMMMT vs Roach/Hydra/ling/bling/muta. Now give me something that crushes the tank (say infestors) and ghosts that counter infestors and now you have a real MU where everything is good, and you actually have to balance your army composition against what you see coming out of your opponent.
On August 21 2013 08:42 fenix404 wrote: in case no one has brought it up, ultralisks, at least for me, are an issue in PvZ. zergs will stay on lings and go straight for fast ultra, while i try to prepare for roach or hydra or SH or muta. maybe it's just me, but i already can't figure out how to efficiently deal with ultralisks.
some help here would be good...
It's really not hard for protoss to deal with ultralisks.
Archon/immortal/templar/colossi/voidray deals well with ultra based compositions. Like yeah This health buff is 1 extra immortal shot, not that big of a deal.
Don't know if this is the right solution to try and fix zvt, but at least blizzard is aware.
Archon do so-so, and Colossi and templar no way.
Void Rays, DTs, and cannons all do fine. Zealots tank ultras surprisingly well for their relatively low cost, buying plenty of time for all units behind them to do the damage. Hell, even Stalkers can hold their own if there is any type of micro/spreading involved as long as they are in adequate numbers.
On August 21 2013 08:46 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Aside from considering moving the Viper to Lair tech, there's another route they could go. One that's been a very long time coming....they buff the corruptor.
I seem to recall David Kim mentioning that they wanted to change that unit for HotS because it was so boring to watch compared to Vikings and Phoenixes in WoL. HotS came. Nothing was done and it seems to have just flown under the radar since.
I've watched Yugioh go roach/ling/bane/corruptor before and thought if corrutors were just a little bit better this could really have potential. If they just had some other advantage over mutas besides being able to tank more damage to snipe medivacs during engagements. Hell you could maybe even still go muta/ling but mix these in as support casters. So what I prepose:
- Corruption cooldown is increased from 45s to 70s - The duration remains at 30s - The cost of a Corruptor is increased from 150/100 to 200/100 - Corruptor speed is increased from 2.9531 to 3 (same as a speed roach off creep. Could help a little with medivac sniping) - Corruption is now an aoe projectile that reduces all upgrades (attack/armor/shields) by 1 with a radius of 2. (Essentially fungal growth with a different effect). Additionally, it doesn't stack and is capped at 0/0/0 reduction.
The unit is now more interesting to watch, very accessible at Lair (especially since you're likely to get a spire in both ZvT and ZvP), has a unique role as the only unit that can debuff upgrades, and would have even better lategame utility.
Maybe the stats I'm preposing are a bit off, but that's not really what's important. It's the concept. Essentially, I'm looking for something similar to the Devourer that's pre-Hive.
I definitely see something like this being on the right track. Corruptors are, at present, the most useless unit in the game. What purpose do they serve now? All they do is basically provide a THE BROODLORDS ARE COMING signal to the opponent. I think that if the zerg had an additional useful unit it could solve a lot of problems. I also like these ideas too, maybe even make it go to (-1,-1,-1) as to really punish a player who doesnt upgrade
Only if broodlords morph from mutas.. so it either morphs to a broodlord or re-designed corrupter..
I mean making binding cloud halve (or some % range reduction) for enemy units underneath it would be a good starting point.. along with a buff for zerg units (+1 armor? +2? etc) underneath it would negate the level 3 weps up on the T ground bio. I can't believe the best solution they could come up with is the 200 energy viper.
How about they just make window mines cost minerals to shoot another shot...like reavers...it could be 10, 25, or 50 minerals whatever is most balanced. this would reduce the cost effiency making it a little bit easier for zerg and also require some micro from terran to reshoot the mines. Its not too much micro, but at least requires a little more skill to use.
On August 20 2013 16:28 Antisocialmunky wrote: Its too bad we can't just have some simple change like make it so mines will explode changelings so you have a free way of defusing mines or something amusing.
Exploding on changelings could have some hilarious consequences. Especially if there is couple of changelings stickied to terran's bio ball :D
That would be glorious to watch. I want that in now just as a viewer.
On August 21 2013 11:11 johnnyapplec wrote: How about they just make window mines cost minerals to shoot another shot...like reavers...it could be 10, 25, or 50 minerals whatever is most balanced. this would reduce the cost effiency making it a little bit easier for zerg and also require some micro from terran to reshoot the mines. Its not too much micro, but at least requires a little more skill to use.
It may not seem like much, but making widow mines cost minerals will greatly weaken Terran in the TvZ matchup...
On August 21 2013 11:11 johnnyapplec wrote: How about they just make window mines cost minerals to shoot another shot...like reavers...it could be 10, 25, or 50 minerals whatever is most balanced. this would reduce the cost effiency making it a little bit easier for zerg and also require some micro from terran to reshoot the mines. Its not too much micro, but at least requires a little more skill to use.
Could do the same for Swarm hosts, or make it cost 10 gas or something
OMG...those overseers will fast as hell!~~ Overseers 1 less fast as phoenix!!~~ hahahah^^...that is hilarious!~~..bring it on...
Ultra buff is fine.....
Its the terran buff that really freaks me out,..It is too much - think about it logically: they essentially get something like 450 min/ 450 gas of upgrades for free?? This is madness!~~
Oh Kim.."We listened to the community feedback to our proposed changes...so we gave Zerg a buff that does absolutely nothing for Zerg's mid-game being stuck on ling bling muta to survive again rallied biomine/multi-drop play. But enjoy your Ultras taking 2 extra shots from marauders, which while stimmed just amounts to what..0.003 seconds of life?"
If it was enough to exactly counter the biomine hit damage I would be rejoicing. But alas...only disappointment. Will they change the balancemap a 3rd time, or just give up and leave Zerg terrible? Stay tuned to find out! Zerg drama month...
On August 21 2013 08:46 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Aside from considering moving the Viper to Lair tech, there's another route they could go. One that's been a very long time coming....they buff the corruptor.
I seem to recall David Kim mentioning that they wanted to change that unit for HotS because it was so boring to watch compared to Vikings and Phoenixes in WoL. HotS came. Nothing was done and it seems to have just flown under the radar since.
I've watched Yugioh go roach/ling/bane/corruptor before and thought if corrutors were just a little bit better this could really have potential. If they just had some other advantage over mutas besides being able to tank more damage to snipe medivacs during engagements. Hell you could maybe even still go muta/ling but mix these in as support casters. So what I prepose:
- Corruption cooldown is increased from 45s to 70s - The duration remains at 30s - The cost of a Corruptor is increased from 150/100 to 200/100 - Corruptor speed is increased from 2.9531 to 3 (same as a speed roach off creep. Could help a little with medivac sniping) - Corruption is now an aoe projectile that reduces all upgrades (attack/armor/shields) by 1 with a radius of 2. (Essentially fungal growth with a different effect). Additionally, it doesn't stack and is capped at 0/0/0 reduction.
The unit is now more interesting to watch, very accessible at Lair (especially since you're likely to get a spire in both ZvT and ZvP), has a unique role as the only unit that can debuff upgrades, and would have even better lategame utility.
Maybe the stats I'm preposing are a bit off, but that's not really what's important. It's the concept. Essentially, I'm looking for something similar to the Devourer that's pre-Hive.
David Kim also said that not every unit needs to be interesting, as this allows other units to be highlighted. The corrupter is fine, and demolishes massive air. There are other units that have higher and more urgent rework priority.
so the ultras, everyone flame they are to imba and they make them STRONGER ? i dont rly get how that help vipers jaeh make them better in zvt but did they thought about zvp ? ultras are a real danger even now
On August 21 2013 12:26 Drake wrote: so the ultras, everyone flame they are to imba and they make them STRONGER ? i dont rly get how that help vipers jaeh make them better in zvt but did they thought about zvp ? ultras are a real danger even now
I do not recall anyone flaming about ultras being imba.
On August 21 2013 12:26 Drake wrote: so the ultras, everyone flame they are to imba and they make them STRONGER ? i dont rly get how that help vipers jaeh make them better in zvt but did they thought about zvp ? ultras are a real danger even now
I do not recall anyone flaming about ultras being imba.
i also dont recall ultras being as strong in zvp, i would argue they are stronger in zvt than zvp
Ultras arent even close to imba in any matchup. What are people smoking? Oh look zerg tech switched to ultras! Too bad by the time you wobble over to Terran's bases, they already cranked out 10+ marauders (assuming they didnt have 10+ out on the field anyway).
Ultras could use a little buff anyway, regardless of whether it solves the MMMM problem or not.
Has anyone actually tested how the changes (including overseer speed) affects ZvT before whining about them?
On August 21 2013 08:46 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Aside from considering moving the Viper to Lair tech, there's another route they could go. One that's been a very long time coming....they buff the corruptor.
I seem to recall David Kim mentioning that they wanted to change that unit for HotS because it was so boring to watch compared to Vikings and Phoenixes in WoL. HotS came. Nothing was done and it seems to have just flown under the radar since.
I've watched Yugioh go roach/ling/bane/corruptor before and thought if corrutors were just a little bit better this could really have potential. If they just had some other advantage over mutas besides being able to tank more damage to snipe medivacs during engagements. Hell you could maybe even still go muta/ling but mix these in as support casters. So what I prepose:
- Corruption cooldown is increased from 45s to 70s - The duration remains at 30s - The cost of a Corruptor is increased from 150/100 to 200/100 - Corruptor speed is increased from 2.9531 to 3 (same as a speed roach off creep. Could help a little with medivac sniping) - Corruption is now an aoe projectile that reduces all upgrades (attack/armor/shields) by 1 with a radius of 2. (Essentially fungal growth with a different effect). Additionally, it doesn't stack and is capped at 0/0/0 reduction.
The unit is now more interesting to watch, very accessible at Lair (especially since you're likely to get a spire in both ZvT and ZvP), has a unique role as the only unit that can debuff upgrades, and would have even better lategame utility.
Maybe the stats I'm preposing are a bit off, but that's not really what's important. It's the concept. Essentially, I'm looking for something similar to the Devourer that's pre-Hive.
David Kim also said that not every unit needs to be interesting, as this allows other units to be highlighted. The corrupter is fine, and demolishes massive air. There are other units that have higher and more urgent rework priority.
Corruptors demolish massive units like Stalkers demolish armored units, just saying. If you're going to give one unit props for being awesome, you might as well recognize another one that does roughly the same DPS vs it's targeted armor type.
And we all know that Stalkers are the go-to unit for Protoss vs armored units like Marauders and Colossi.
The mech upgrade combine probably affect mech TvT the most. I still don't see the point meching in TvZ or TvP. I don't think the other two changes affect that much on high level play. Maybe they should do something with burrowed ultra, it could be fun to watch :D
I think mule is the real problem for ZvT mid game. There are countless time I see zerg tried to counter attack and killed a bunch of scv but terran just called down some mules and they are good to go again. This is making ZvT extremely predictable to watch, Zerg survival to hive tech and hope for the best while terran will try to get 3/3 and finish the game. There are not many games I watched that zerg win the game at mid game.
buffing the ultra seems lazy, and extremely unhelpful. ZvT wise zerg doesn't struggle in the late game because ultras don't have 50 HP, they struggle in the late game because they get their so haphazardly a lot of the time. Largely due to the cost efficiency of bio/mine vs the cost efficiency of ling/bane/muta. So if they really wanted to address ZvT late game where the change needs to occur is ZvT mid game as far as cost efficiency for zerg goes.
Not saying it's the right call, but testing some kind of a buff to lings or banes would make more sense then this ultra 50 hp buff. All that will do is make late game impossible for T and maybe even create issues ZvP and ZvZ if a zerg can get to utlras fairly cleanly.
As far as what you'd buff with ling/bane, I think it'd make sense to test out something like a slight attack speed increase on lings. That way they are still fragile but if a player can micro them well to get on top of targets they'd do slightly better damage. It'd also make a ling run by more of a threat. Additionally could address issues Zergs are having with early gateway first timings where lings are your only defense coupled with queens.
On August 21 2013 13:24 Nerski wrote: buffing the ultra seems lazy, and extremely unhelpful. ZvT wise zerg doesn't struggle in the late game because ultras don't have 50 HP, they struggle in the late game because they get their so haphazardly a lot of the time. Largely due to the cost efficiency of bio/mine vs the cost efficiency of ling/bane/muta. So if they really wanted to address ZvT late game where the change needs to occur is ZvT mid game as far as cost efficiency for zerg goes.
Not saying it's the right call, but testing some kind of a buff to lings or banes would make more sense then this ultra 50 hp buff. All that will do is make late game impossible for T and maybe even create issues ZvP and ZvZ if a zerg can get to utlras fairly cleanly.
As far as what you'd buff with ling/bane, I think it'd make sense to test out something like a slight attack speed increase on lings. That way they are still fragile but if a player can micro them well to get on top of targets they'd do slightly better damage. It'd also make a ling run by more of a threat. Additionally could address issues Zergs are having with early gateway first timings where lings are your only defense coupled with queens.
I know blizzard now have 'buff-everything' policy but we need to change WM then buff mech (esp tank). I don't think buff something in zerg is unnecessary at this point (if WM is fixed)
why don't you just make WM attack, non-spell? It will make viper effective vs mines! (can blind cloud them!)
The only downfall is that PvT match ups will get effected a bit (immortal) To immortal, WM will do
35 (initial shield dmg) + 10 = 45. so one immortal can tank about 4-5 shots (i'm not quite sure what will happen if immortal have less than 35 shield).
On August 21 2013 13:05 lemonbone wrote: The mech upgrade combine probably affect mech TvT the most. I still don't see the point meching in TvZ or TvP. I don't think the other two changes affect that much on high level play. Maybe they should do something with burrowed ultra, it could be fun to watch :D
I think mule is the real problem for ZvT mid game. There are countless time I see zerg tried to counter attack and killed a bunch of scv but terran just called down some mules and they are good to go again. This is making ZvT extremely predictable to watch, Zerg survival to hive tech and hope for the best while terran will try to get 3/3 and finish the game. There are not many games I watched that zerg win the game at mid game.
Mule is not a problem IF 4M build is not OP vs Zerg. the great synergy b/w Mules and light gas bio build is just overwhelming Edit: when I say 'light-gas build', I'm comparing with mech.
As weird as this sounds, it'll probably work out. Zergs have been dying due to staying on lair tech for too long. Now it'll reward zergs for getting hive earlier to get ultras so they can deal with terran MMMM. I still personally would've prefered them reverting infested terrans back, they do jack all these days xD
guys will you please stop suggesting things? Blizzard is gonna read this post , and therefore be unable to implement any of your suggestions. Someone suggested changing the protoss upgrade colors to match every other race in the production tab, and Blizzard had to make it green because someone had already suggested red. Think about this example before you go laying out your awesome ideas that would actually make a lot of sense
Don't nerf the mine damage(for the future), but increase gas cost to 50, so terran has to work harder in preserving them. That is all that is needed. And not Ultra life buff, but instead make them smaller or make them faster.
fixing mech? as as protoss player, I'd propose nerfing immortal's stats along with lowering the overall cost of this unit. this would be WIN-WIN as immortals are too good per se, and still bad when it comes to massing (cost & time).
On August 21 2013 15:49 larse wrote: I think beside Korea, ZvT winrate is quite balanced. That lair to 3-3 suggestion is too overreacted.
TvP is the really broken matchup that needs to be fixed. The Season 3 Korean winrate TvP is about 30%. That's pretty broken.
According to TLPD the Up & Downs went like this: TvZ: 9-4 PvZ: 10-9 TvP: 11-4 So both have ~30% (in a tiny, tiny number of games) in Season 3 up to now.
The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth base while Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Btw what I noticed recently in some TvZ games, for example Scarlet vs Dream on ATC, was the zerg floating massive amounts of gas, way more than the terran.
Sadly I think following the logic of most zerg players, this means we are forced to nerf zergs. Since floating gas means your composition is mainly dependent on minerals, and that is automatically OP.
On August 21 2013 17:30 Sissors wrote: Btw what I noticed recently in some TvZ games, for example Scarlet vs Dream on ATC, was the zerg floating massive amounts of gas, way more than the terran.
Sadly I think following the logic of most zerg players, this means we are forced to nerf zergs. Since floating gas means your composition is mainly dependent on minerals, and that is automatically OP.
agree, zerg needs mules to get enough mineral income to spend the gas. maybe as a spire upgrade so queens can spawn them?
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote: The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth basewhile Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.
The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
On August 21 2013 17:30 Sissors wrote: Btw what I noticed recently in some TvZ games, for example Scarlet vs Dream on ATC, was the zerg floating massive amounts of gas, way more than the terran.
Sadly I think following the logic of most zerg players, this means we are forced to nerf zergs. Since floating gas means your composition is mainly dependent on minerals, and that is automatically OP.
I love how you give sample size of exactly one game.
What would be so nice about terran upgrade is this...
- Remove the Engeneering bay. - Armory is the new setting for terran upgrade. - You can add tech lab or reactor to Armory. - You can research more specific upgrades for buildings (techlab) or you can research 2 upgrade at a time for units. - Would create build like bio/mech composition
On August 21 2013 17:30 Sissors wrote: Btw what I noticed recently in some TvZ games, for example Scarlet vs Dream on ATC, was the zerg floating massive amounts of gas, way more than the terran.
Sadly I think following the logic of most zerg players, this means we are forced to nerf zergs. Since floating gas means your composition is mainly dependent on minerals, and that is automatically OP.
I love how you give sample size of exactly one game.
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote: The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth basewhile Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.
The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
The only reason BC's have ever been "bad" against zerg is because they are 0-0 upgrades in the lategame. BC's, ravens and ghosts are all viable in the late game for terran though, really.
I wouldnt mind seeing cloaked ghost queen sniping into tech nuking. 2 nukes kills any tech building. Send in 5 or 6 ghosts while turtling, kill the main + nat + 3rd + macro hatch queen -> nuke all the tech.
On August 21 2013 15:00 OPL3SA2 wrote: guys will you please stop suggesting things? Blizzard is gonna read this post , and therefore be unable to implement any of your suggestions. Someone suggested changing the protoss upgrade colors to match every other race in the production tab, and Blizzard had to make it green because someone had already suggested red. Think about this example before you go laying out your awesome ideas that would actually make a lot of sense
Would it be possible to only have a 550 HP ultra in T vs Z, meanwhile having 500 HP ultra in other mu's? I just think it's unfair to end up with a less balanced mu, for the sake of trying to make another mu more balanced. These kinda buffs call for counter measures. No unit needs a HP buff less than the Ultra. The mine is so amazingly designed that most of the changes implemented/suggested are due to 1 unit.... just so amazing. God forbid they were to tweak the root cause.
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote: The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth basewhile Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.
The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
I agree that. T has a nonexistent T3 (or a pretty weird one) but somehow that works just fine because they start working towards their best composition since medivacs come out and 3/3 becomes the tipping point when Zergs muta ling bling can't compete with the Terran army. I'm ok with this since muta ling bling is a mid game composition and should be complemented with T3 units, the problem is the little gap between those things (a gap that Terran doesn't have) and giving +50HP to Ultras doesn't really address IMO ...
We’re already seeing the Viper energy increase from the last balance test map change timing attacks a lot more than we expected. We could revisit a lesser version of this change in the future, but for now we want to focus on helping out the Zerg in late game TvZ. We’ve said before that during late game TvZ, Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.”
WOW? easy to manage? WOW. when do we terrans get some unit thats easy to manage and we can A move to win vs any ground army? zerg army are easy enough to controll...
and ultralisk is one of the core problem lategame tvz.. they are to strong... ONLY whit heavy maraduers you can win.. and how can you suddnely make many of those whit one or two techlabs? when you see 10 ultras suddenly on the map..
On August 21 2013 18:28 MiCroLiFe wrote: We’re already seeing the Viper energy increase from the last balance test map change timing attacks a lot more than we expected. We could revisit a lesser version of this change in the future, but for now we want to focus on helping out the Zerg in late game TvZ. We’ve said before that during late game TvZ, Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.”
WOW? easy to manage? WOW. when do we terrans get some unit thats easy to manage and we can A move to win vs any ground army? zerg army are easy enough to controll...
and ultralisk is one of the core problem lategame tvz.. they are to strong... ONLY whit heavy maraduers you can win.. and how can you suddnely make many of those whit one or two techlabs? when you see 10 ultras suddenly on the map..
GJ blizzard buffing the alredy strongest race..
Except that zergs kinda do not get to survive until ultras most of time, without some brilliance or blunder from terran in midgame.
They should help toss players have some way of beating players they don't know of and can't predict their style. Protoss needs that for the pros, eg, Dear said he has trouble with that as a Protoss player at MLG.
On August 21 2013 18:45 erezzun wrote: How about bringing back Insta fungal? I'm not sure how it affects to zvp meta, in zvz it is not problem because of less muta play after spore buff
Oh well, it will brrrreak TvZ for sure maybe 'faster' fungal or neuro parasite buff. but personally, I don't think zerg needs a buff. I only want mine nerf :p
On August 21 2013 17:45 rEdEEmEd wrote: What would be so nice about terran upgrade is this...
- Remove the Engeneering bay. - Armory is the new setting for terran upgrade. - You can add tech lab or reactor to Armory. - You can research more specific upgrades for buildings (techlab) or you can research 2 upgrade at a time for units. - Would create build like bio/mech composition
i really like this idea! but to do this u may want the armory to be flyable
The way to fix everything in TvZ is to change Blinding Cloud to work like Dark swarm. Seriously.
This way it helps zergs against constant bio pushes (as units under it take no ranged damage other than splash) and it doesn't completely shut down tank based mech play. Infact, it'd give tanks more a place even with Bio as you'd need the splash they offer.
On August 21 2013 18:52 Qikz wrote: The way to fix everything in TvZ is to change Blinding Cloud to work like Dark swarm. Seriously.
This way it helps zergs against constant bio pushes (as units under it take no ranged damage other than splash) and it doesn't completely shut down tank based mech play. Infact, it'd give tanks more a place even with Bio as you'd need the splash they offer.
ummm... if infestors can use them, I wouldn't mind
seriously, most zergs can't even get to hive in TvZ. blame 4M. and it will be devastating vs PvZ. something had to go.
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote: The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth basewhile Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.
The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
The only reason BC's have ever been "bad" against zerg is because they are 0-0 upgrades in the lategame. BC's, ravens and ghosts are all viable in the late game for terran though, really.
I wouldnt mind seeing cloaked ghost queen sniping into tech nuking. 2 nukes kills any tech building. Send in 5 or 6 ghosts while turtling, kill the main + nat + 3rd + macro hatch queen -> nuke all the tech.
Obviously there is no Neural Parasite, no "vs massive Corruptors" and no "machinegun Hydras" (BCs are even slower than slow Hydras off creep). And there probably isnt an Abduct spell either now, eh?
Ghosts - which are Tier 2 units which were NOT the topic - dont deal nearly enough damage for their cost when they run out of energy because they are squishy "vs. light specialists" and a big part of the damage Zerg deals does not come from light units.
Ravens are super expensive at 200 gas apiece and thus can never really achieve the efficiency of Infestors AND their "fighting unit" costs 50 energy and requires building squares and thus isnt as spammable and as "concentratable" as the Infested Terrans of the Infestor. Their other two spells are far too expensive to be useable all the time because you wont ever have the 25+ of them as it was possible for the Infestor. Too bad the Seeker Missile got nerfed so much that it doesnt really do AoE anymore (because most of the time only one target gets hit). Even if the Terran had the gas to build 25 Ravens that would take AGES since they cant just do it in one production cycle so the unit has at max a supporting role. Numbers - "critical numbers" at that - affect the power of a unit and in the case of energy units it is important to have enough of them so you can "always have a Fungal" or "always Forcefield" ... and that is simply unrealistic for the Raven. Dont look at them when they are doing something ... look at them over the course of "the whole war".
On August 21 2013 18:52 Qikz wrote: The way to fix everything in TvZ is to change Blinding Cloud to work like Dark swarm. Seriously.
This way it helps zergs against constant bio pushes (as units under it take no ranged damage other than splash) and it doesn't completely shut down tank based mech play. Infact, it'd give tanks more a place even with Bio as you'd need the splash they offer.
The current developer team however have repeatedly proven that they have a mental block when it comes to make sc2 more like sc1... <.<
On August 21 2013 18:52 Qikz wrote: The way to fix everything in TvZ is to change Blinding Cloud to work like Dark swarm. Seriously.
This way it helps zergs against constant bio pushes (as units under it take no ranged damage other than splash) and it doesn't completely shut down tank based mech play. Infact, it'd give tanks more a place even with Bio as you'd need the splash they offer.
ummm... if infestors can use them, I wouldn't mind
seriously, most zergs can't even get to hive in TvZ. blame 4M. and it will be devastating vs PvZ. something had to go.
I've seen plenty of zergs actually get a hive. The issue is they can't afford the ultra transition due to spending all their money constantly trading with bio.
It'd also make Hydra/Roach a hell of a lot better vs Bio as the main issue is the marine DPS.
On August 21 2013 18:28 MiCroLiFe wrote: We’re already seeing the Viper energy increase from the last balance test map change timing attacks a lot more than we expected. We could revisit a lesser version of this change in the future, but for now we want to focus on helping out the Zerg in late game TvZ. We’ve said before that during late game TvZ, Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.”
WOW? easy to manage? WOW. when do we terrans get some unit thats easy to manage and we can A move to win vs any ground army? zerg army are easy enough to controll...
and ultralisk is one of the core problem lategame tvz.. they are to strong... ONLY whit heavy maraduers you can win.. and how can you suddnely make many of those whit one or two techlabs? when you see 10 ultras suddenly on the map..
GJ blizzard buffing the alredy strongest race..
Except that zergs kinda do not get to survive until ultras most of time, without some brilliance or blunder from terran in midgame.
That is not correct. Im a mid master on europe and my only way to win a zerg is to do some 2 rak all in. every zerg in master know how to disable mines pretty easy.. move some lings and let them be dead, then a move rest of army. I win every engagemnts until ultras comes and cant do anything..
AND you wasnt beeing relevant to the topic, ultras are alredy to powerfull, why make them even stronger?
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote: The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth basewhile Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.
The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
You obviously haven't seen skyterran games. Go watch Thorzain games during hots beta, skyterran is possibly the strongest deathball in sc2. Only skytoss can match its power.
On August 21 2013 18:52 Qikz wrote: The way to fix everything in TvZ is to change Blinding Cloud to work like Dark swarm. Seriously.
This way it helps zergs against constant bio pushes (as units under it take no ranged damage other than splash) and it doesn't completely shut down tank based mech play. Infact, it'd give tanks more a place even with Bio as you'd need the splash they offer.
Would make attacking zerg bases near impossible. They just cloud leading to the hatchery and you can't even go near it. Tanks won't do anything because vipers still have abduct.
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote: The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth basewhile Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.
The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
You obviously haven't seen skyterran games. Go watch Thorzain games during hots beta, skyterran is possibly the strongest deathball in sc2. Only skytoss can match its power.
I think with "nothing" he meant "nothing reachable". But I agree with you, if you can make a perfect army from scratch according to your wishes, then the terran sky army is not to be underestimated.
On August 21 2013 18:52 Qikz wrote: The way to fix everything in TvZ is to change Blinding Cloud to work like Dark swarm. Seriously.
This way it helps zergs against constant bio pushes (as units under it take no ranged damage other than splash) and it doesn't completely shut down tank based mech play. Infact, it'd give tanks more a place even with Bio as you'd need the splash they offer.
The way to "fix everything" is to get rid of the massive production of units and the maximized concentration of units. Low economy and therefore reduced unit production coupled with spread out units AND a micro requirement to concentrate your units into a more efficient dense formation gives players more control and allows for far easier balancing of the units.
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote: The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth basewhile Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.
The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
You obviously haven't seen skyterran games. Go watch Thorzain games during hots beta, skyterran is possibly the strongest deathball in sc2. Only skytoss can match its power.
So why isnt he roflstomping every Zerg with it now if it is so powerful?
On August 21 2013 02:20 IMplying wrote: Yet another patch that makes you question David Kims understanding of the game.
Do you have any credentials to back up your statement? Which games did you develop so far? Are you at least a pro gamer with a deep understanding of the game (even though the reliance on winning game could bias your view)?
On August 21 2013 17:30 Sissors wrote: Btw what I noticed recently in some TvZ games, for example Scarlet vs Dream on ATC, was the zerg floating massive amounts of gas, way more than the terran.
Sadly I think following the logic of most zerg players, this means we are forced to nerf zergs. Since floating gas means your composition is mainly dependent on minerals, and that is automatically OP.
I love how you give sample size of exactly one game.
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote: The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth basewhile Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.
The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
You obviously haven't seen skyterran games. Go watch Thorzain games during hots beta, skyterran is possibly the strongest deathball in sc2. Only skytoss can match its power.
So why isnt he roflstomping every Zerg with it now if it is so powerful?
the combined upgrade didn't go through to the actual game. that was the key to make skyterran transition a lot easier and stronger, but the bigger problem is that mech still doesn't work in hots. it is harder for bio style to transition into it, but not impossible. (and not needed some times because zerg staying in lair tech for so long anyway) watch hyun polt game for reference.
Skyterran is a very strong composition, but really not uncounterably for zergs. It just took them a bit of time to figure out skytoss, and skyterran isn't all that different.
Counter will be mainly abducts + spores + regular anti air, and swarm hosts for pressure. Since a skyterran can't split up his army, he has to keep defending the swarm host pressure, and can get picked of one at a time. Of course he can then also do the frontal assault, but while sky terran is very strong in that fashion, he is then fighting on top of a field of spore crawlers.
On August 21 2013 19:31 Sissors wrote: Skyterran is a very strong composition, but really not uncounterably for zergs. It just took them a bit of time to figure out skytoss, and skyterran isn't all that different.
Counter will be mainly abducts + spores + regular anti air, and swarm hosts for pressure. Since a skyterran can't split up his army, he has to keep defending the swarm host pressure, and can get picked of one at a time. Of course he can then also do the frontal assault, but while sky terran is very strong in that fashion, he is then fighting on top of a field of spore crawlers.
sky terran doesn't mean a pure sky unit. It does include some tanks to zone hydras and swarmhosts, mines to add in extra zoning ability and AoE splash for currptors and thor for AoE AA damage then using BCs yamato to snipe and pdds to defend any attempt to snipe units. vikings to snipe vipers and corruptors like how they sniped broodlords and corruptors in WoL
I like the armory upgrade . It would help TvP late game a lot and also could make for a more diverse army composition with mech .
The zerg changes are also nice , but i don't think it would help zerg much . The problem with ZvT is that the Swarn host and banelings aren't doing half the task at what the lurker did in BW , and that is help them by time for their economy and tech to kick in and give them the necessary tools to fight 4M . It wasn't such a problem in WOL , but now in HOTS with mines you just can't trade effectively vs Terran .
Fungal isn't worth it anymore and units automatically moving out of blinding cloud is pretty stupid if you ask me , but it would be nice to see more blinding cloud usage .
I am dissapointed in the pros utilization of mechanics like burrow , overlord drops and nudis worm . Things like defensive nudis to protect far away bases , burrowed banelings or bane drops on worker or other light units have so much potential . Maybe some buffs in those areas . Like giving Overseer the ability to drop , or drop research cost decrease could be nice . Maybe a nudis health or armor buff . I would like to see those kind of changes being tested ... an overlord armor upgrade who knows , but it's better then nothing and would help for mechanics that are really good and valueable being used again ...
Also if the zerg are struggling i don't mind seeing more zerg friendly maps . The way the balance worked in BW . You make maps zerg imba and we have balance again .
Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.
What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one?
They are saying mines rape lings/blings/mutas if you dont pay attention, so they are giving ultras a boost to make them better to use against bio since they kinda just run over mines.
Dont agree with the change though.
Yeah and terrans whole army dies in ONE second if u dont pay attencion for even 0.50 sec when banelings are on the map!
Blizzard are making zerg easyer and easyer to play. zerg dosnt struggle... i always see zerg wins when i watch master cups or master/gm streamers.
Why people are complaing about the ultalisk changes? ultras sucks out of the creep vs a heavy marauder compositions. If the zerg dont kill the terran just after the ultras pops out, they are dead (in pro games). Zerg dont have a strong late game composition any more, infestors are great, but they die too easily, is very hard to hit good fungals. Zerg easy? Yeah we have so many zegs at WCS finals. And who in the world would think JD or scarlett are the favourite to take 1st place? Only if you dont know the sc2 pro scene. A top tier terran will be always favourite vs a top tier zerg right know at the sc2 scene.
On August 21 2013 21:48 Mocking wrote: Why people are complaing about the ultalisk changes? ultras sucks out of the creep vs a heavy marauder compositions. If the zerg dont kill the terran just after the ultras pops out, they are dead (in pro games). Zerg dont have a strong late game composition any more, infestors are great, but they die too easily, is very hard to hit good fungals. Zerg easy? Yeah we have so many zegs at WCS finals. And who in the world would think JD or scarlett are the favourite to take 1st place? Only if you dont know the sc2 pro scene. A top tier terran will be always favourite vs a top tier zerg right know at the sc2 scene.
Well, zerg has great lategame compositions in TvZ. You just have to switch around and adapt to what your opponent is doing: Marine/Mine/Medivac --> Ultra/Infestor based Marine/Marauder/Mine/Medivac --> Broodlord/Infestor based Skyterran --> Viper/Corruptor/Static D. based Mech --> Viper based
thing is, the moment a Terran gets in trouble compositionwise from a biocomposition, he will usually try to go drops/baserace, and the game will usually end then and there as you will either get ahead and be able to just overrun him or die from the drops.
On August 21 2013 21:48 Mocking wrote: Why people are complaing about the ultalisk changes? ultras sucks out of the creep vs a heavy marauder compositions. If the zerg dont kill the terran just after the ultras pops out, they are dead (in pro games). Zerg dont have a strong late game composition any more, infestors are great, but they die too easily, is very hard to hit good fungals. Zerg easy? Yeah we have so many zegs at WCS finals. And who in the world would think JD or scarlett are the favourite to take 1st place? Only if you dont know the sc2 pro scene. A top tier terran will be always favourite vs a top tier zerg right know at the sc2 scene.
Well, zerg has great lategame compositions in TvZ. You just have to switch around and adapt to what your opponent is doing: Marine/Mine/Medivac --> Ultra/Infestor based Marine/Marauder/Mine/Medivac --> Broodlord/Infestor based Skyterran --> Viper/Corruptor/Static D. based Mech --> Viper based
Both of those lose because the terran has the ability to switch to mass drop play. Both of those Zerg compositions are slow, and do poorly when split into smaller groups. It's not as easy as countering a composition. You gave to counter the play style, which is why things are so sketchy for late game zerg. We have the tools to beat the army straight up, certainly, but fighting straight up will only happen if the terran wants it to happen.
On August 21 2013 21:48 Mocking wrote: Why people are complaing about the ultalisk changes? ultras sucks out of the creep vs a heavy marauder compositions. If the zerg dont kill the terran just after the ultras pops out, they are dead (in pro games). Zerg dont have a strong late game composition any more, infestors are great, but they die too easily, is very hard to hit good fungals. Zerg easy? Yeah we have so many zegs at WCS finals. And who in the world would think JD or scarlett are the favourite to take 1st place? Only if you dont know the sc2 pro scene. A top tier terran will be always favourite vs a top tier zerg right know at the sc2 scene.
Well, zerg has great lategame compositions in TvZ. You just have to switch around and adapt to what your opponent is doing: Marine/Mine/Medivac --> Ultra/Infestor based Marine/Marauder/Mine/Medivac --> Broodlord/Infestor based Skyterran --> Viper/Corruptor/Static D. based Mech --> Viper based
The problem is the high cost of that. If the mid-game pushes is very hard to a zerg have a decent economy. And my point is even if the ultra buff, marauders still you be great vs them, and marauders use marines upgrates yet.
Armory upgrade is still a lousy attempt to fix mech and at most you'll get to see some mech abomination like thor/hellbat/banshee, I rather pass on that. Just give the tank a proper buff (reintroducing siege tech) and give the thor some AA buff.
Overseer change is fine
Ultralisk change is not needed, Z is not exactly weak lategame if anything their transition to get there is too hard. Buff viper or infestor to make it easier to get to hive or do something like reducing hive tech cost a little or the cost of some hive upgrades (chitonous plating, +3 armor, adrenal glands). Hive vs T is a massive investment at the moment for things that pay off rather late, almost every time in pro ZvT you see them dying during this transition. If they get there unharmed ultralisks are already giving zerg a small edge.
On August 21 2013 22:14 Markwerf wrote: Armory upgrade is still a lousy attempt to fix mech and at most you'll get to see some mech abomination like thor/hellbat/banshee, I rather pass on that. Just give the tank a proper buff (reintroducing siege tech) and give the thor some AA buff.
Overseer change is fine
Ultralisk change is not needed, Z is not exactly weak lategame if anything their transition to get there is too hard. Buff viper or infestor to make it easier to get to hive or do something like reducing hive tech cost a little or the cost of some hive upgrades (chitonous plating, +3 armor, adrenal glands). Hive vs T is a massive investment at the moment for things that pay off rather late, almost every time in pro ZvT you see them dying during this transition. If they get there unharmed ultralisks are already giving zerg a small edge.
I think zerg is pretty weak vs T. Not because Ultra/infestor cant win vs a terran army, but as a zerg is very hard to kill the terran. He can drop everywhere, putting you in a defensive position, while he is macroing pretty well. Is not like "Oh no, the zergs get 12 ultras and 6 festor, i should gg now, cant win using bio-mine anymore".
On August 21 2013 22:54 Mocking wrote: I think zerg is pretty weak vs T. Not because Ultra/infestor cant win vs a terran army, but as a zerg is very hard to kill the terran. He can drop everywhere, putting you in a defensive position, while he is macroing pretty well. Is not like "Oh no, the zergs get 12 ultras and 6 festor, i should gg now, cant win using bio-mine anymore".
Properly positioned static defense shuts down drops hard unless Terran fully commits.
On August 21 2013 22:23 manniefresh wrote: I agree that instead of Armory Change they should just buff siege tank. My idea: New tank upgrade off tech lab:
Double Shot
Allows siege tank to fire twice for half damage.
This would make tank almost twice as effective against immortals, opening up mech for TvP.
You seem to forget that the Immortal is only ONE of many issues the tank currently has in TvP.
In BW, Protoss actually had a hard time dealing with tanks as their most effective units were very high tier with very high gas costs: HT w/ storm, and Carriers.
Lacking that massive gas available, the typical solution was to drop zealots out of a shuttle on top of the tanks and have the tanks kill each other while forcing your way into the fight with dragoons from as many angles as possible. This wasn't a great option, but effective enough to make an interesting MU.
In SC2, Stalkers have blink, Zealots have charge, Tanks take far more shots to kill Zealots compared to BW, and useful air units like the Void Ray and Phoenix are available much earlier than Carriers were in BW. Throw the Immortal in there and far reduced damage to Archon, and the Tank is just a weak unit vs Protoss all around.
If they wanted to make the Siege Tank good again in TvP, it would take a lot more than a specific anti-immortal buff.
On August 21 2013 22:14 Markwerf wrote: Armory upgrade is still a lousy attempt to fix mech and at most you'll get to see some mech abomination like thor/hellbat/banshee, I rather pass on that. Just give the tank a proper buff (reintroducing siege tech) and give the thor some AA buff.
I think the upgrade merge is primary there to smoothen a possible transition into hellbats for TvP lategame. Though I don't think Terrans will go double ebay, double armory (for Vikings and hellbats) in TvP because of that, I think they will upgrade Mech attacks instead of Armor after such a change. Because attack upgrades for Vikings/Hellbats are better than armor upgrades.
Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing.
What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one?
They are saying mines rape lings/blings/mutas if you dont pay attention, so they are giving ultras a boost to make them better to use against bio since they kinda just run over mines.
Dont agree with the change though.
Yeah and terrans whole army dies in ONE second if u dont pay attencion for even 0.50 sec when banelings are on the map!
Blizzard are making zerg easyer and easyer to play. zerg dosnt struggle... i always see zerg wins when i watch master cups or master/gm streamers.
Just shut up when you obviously don't know jack shit about what you're talking about. I'm glad Blizzard doesn't listen to random ladder heroes like you, the game would be broken as hell if they would.
I think instead of collapsing the zerg tech tree a more sane option is to give bio-mine useful transitioning options, like ghosts and ravens. I wouldn't mind ultralisks becoming more powerful if terran had tools to stop them.
Another way to slow down terran is to strengthen contaminate for overseers.
Other options are small nerfs to terran upgrades and the widow mine.
Fungal is pretty damn good against 4M, especially with ultras in the mix. I can think of one thing that would help zerg and the viewers: reduce the size of the infestor! 6-7 infestors take up the whole battlefield, are inte the way of other units and are a general pain in the ass to both look and play with because of them headbutting into eachother.
On August 21 2013 21:48 Mocking wrote: Why people are complaing about the ultalisk changes? ultras sucks out of the creep vs a heavy marauder compositions. If the zerg dont kill the terran just after the ultras pops out, they are dead (in pro games). Zerg dont have a strong late game composition any more, infestors are great, but they die too easily, is very hard to hit good fungals. Zerg easy? Yeah we have so many zegs at WCS finals. And who in the world would think JD or scarlett are the favourite to take 1st place? Only if you dont know the sc2 pro scene. A top tier terran will be always favourite vs a top tier zerg right know at the sc2 scene.
Blizzard seems to be nudging people along the line of going with ultras as the late game aoe against marines.
For one thing, it's not very interesting to watch. It also has implications in other match-ups.
A more interesting change would be to give banes a hive upgrade to make them more cost effective at tier 3 vs marines but also slightly harder to use.
On August 21 2013 22:14 Markwerf wrote: Armory upgrade is still a lousy attempt to fix mech and at most you'll get to see some mech abomination like thor/hellbat/banshee, I rather pass on that. Just give the tank a proper buff (reintroducing siege tech) and give the thor some AA buff.
The pessimist and realist in me agrees with that. Smoke and mirrors of "hey we are trying but we really aren't, buy the next expansion and we promise to fix mech, again"
The optimist in me though thinks that this is just one step on the road to fixing mech. Buffing and hopefully fixing mech anti air is an important step. This should give them enough time to find a fix for the more important problems of mech, maybe sometime after WCS World finals.
On August 22 2013 01:15 wildstyle1337 wrote: ok so it will balance tvz but unbalance pvz
which of those changes unbalances PvZ? And which of those changes balances TvZ? Those attemps are pretty much useless. You need to nerf widow mines, but not without compensation. buff Hellbats and tanks/thors!
On August 22 2013 01:15 wildstyle1337 wrote: ok so it will balance tvz but unbalance pvz
which of those changes unbalances PvZ? And which of those changes balances TvZ? Those attemps are pretty much useless. You need to nerf widow mines, but not without compensation. buff Hellbats and tanks/thors!
Nah ... Widow Mines need to be removed and Thors need to be exchanged for Goliaths (smaller, faster AND cheaper with the same single target AA damage the Thor has in its single target mode). Add to that an increased damage for the Siege Tank and we are on the right path towards making mech viable.
Additionally take out the Hellbat and replace it by the Warhound with the flamers of the Hellbat and you get rid of the stupid mech unit being healed as well while keeping an opportunity to add some nifty attacks to the unit AND the unit can be balanced by its cost as well ... which isnt possible for the Hellbat. Maybe the "Hellhound" has short range grenades which are triggered and targeted and put down flaming pits of oil for a few seconds while shutting down the flamer ability of the unit for the same time (to cool down or recharge).
On August 21 2013 19:31 Sissors wrote: Skyterran is a very strong composition, but really not uncounterably for zergs. It just took them a bit of time to figure out skytoss, and skyterran isn't all that different.
Counter will be mainly abducts + spores + regular anti air, and swarm hosts for pressure. Since a skyterran can't split up his army, he has to keep defending the swarm host pressure, and can get picked of one at a time. Of course he can then also do the frontal assault, but while sky terran is very strong in that fashion, he is then fighting on top of a field of spore crawlers.
Skyterran is less vulnerable than skytoss really. SH works great against skytoss because they have so many units like tempest, which shoot slowly. BC's destroy SH because they fire so damned fast.
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote: The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth basewhile Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.
The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
The only reason BC's have ever been "bad" against zerg is because they are 0-0 upgrades in the lategame. BC's, ravens and ghosts are all viable in the late game for terran though, really.
I wouldnt mind seeing cloaked ghost queen sniping into tech nuking. 2 nukes kills any tech building. Send in 5 or 6 ghosts while turtling, kill the main + nat + 3rd + macro hatch queen -> nuke all the tech.
Obviously there is no Neural Parasite, no "vs massive Corruptors" and no "machinegun Hydras" (BCs are even slower than slow Hydras off creep). And there probably isnt an Abduct spell either now, eh?
Ghosts - which are Tier 2 units which were NOT the topic - dont deal nearly enough damage for their cost when they run out of energy because they are squishy "vs. light specialists" and a big part of the damage Zerg deals does not come from light units.
Ravens are super expensive at 200 gas apiece and thus can never really achieve the efficiency of Infestors AND their "fighting unit" costs 50 energy and requires building squares and thus isnt as spammable and as "concentratable" as the Infested Terrans of the Infestor. Their other two spells are far too expensive to be useable all the time because you wont ever have the 25+ of them as it was possible for the Infestor. Too bad the Seeker Missile got nerfed so much that it doesnt really do AoE anymore (because most of the time only one target gets hit). Even if the Terran had the gas to build 25 Ravens that would take AGES since they cant just do it in one production cycle so the unit has at max a supporting role. Numbers - "critical numbers" at that - affect the power of a unit and in the case of energy units it is important to have enough of them so you can "always have a Fungal" or "always Forcefield" ... and that is simply unrealistic for the Raven. Dont look at them when they are doing something ... look at them over the course of "the whole war".
Corruptors are "meh" against BC's. Raven/BC is even worse thanks to PDD and HSM. Hydras are BAD against BC's. Why would you think a low damage fast firing unit is good against a high armor unit? Do you think marines are good against ultralisks? The only thing that works is abduct and neural, both of which can be hard to pull off.
Tier system is archaic and has always been questionable. Ghosts are tier 3 infantry in my mind. I dont understand why their damage while uncloaked is what you choose to point out since they just killed off a majority of production and all of the tech at a supply cost of 10. 5 ghosts isnt making an army of ghosts or something.
And are you really saying the raven sucks? REALLY? And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt?
On August 21 2013 22:14 Markwerf wrote: Armory upgrade is still a lousy attempt to fix mech and at most you'll get to see some mech abomination like thor/hellbat/banshee, I rather pass on that. Just give the tank a proper buff (reintroducing siege tech) and give the thor some AA buff.
I think the upgrade merge is primary there to smoothen a possible transition into hellbats for TvP lategame. Though I don't think Terrans will go double ebay, double armory (for Vikings and hellbats) in TvP because of that, I think they will upgrade Mech attacks instead of Armor after such a change. Because attack upgrades for Vikings/Hellbats are better than armor upgrades.
There are much better ways to fix this supposed lategame TvP imbalance. For example slightly buff ghosts (they are only used in lategame TvP) or make zealots 90hp/60 shields instead of 100/hp/50 shield. Chargelots with high armor upgrades are only a thing in PvT really where the armor is quite effective, trading some hp for shields will practically not effect zealots in any other matchup but makes them worse in lategame TvP.
This armory change is about fixing two problems in one go, which I usually approve off as doing multiple things at the same time is the only way to keep balancing a bit elegant (reduce the number of changes needed).
Lategame hellbats in TvP are already fine with armor ugprades effecting them, vikings and medivacs at the same time. All it is now is that the transition is a little hard to it needing a techlab first, 150/150 and then a swap to reactor. The problem is the transition not the endgame power, fixing a transitioning problem by making that endgame much stronger is not really a great move. Same with the ultralisk change, getting there is the problem not the unit itself.. Of course a buff like this helps to balance but makes the game more volatile, kill them before they get there or die afterwards. It's better to keep the game more evenly matched throughout as it makes games more tense.
And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt
Because of the time needed for a decent raven force to be produced, and because of the infrastructure you need to produce them.
Mass Raven is as stupid as it is strong. But having that is really hard. Much harder than having 3 or 4 vipers in your army. And before 12 to 16 of them. They're not really useful. All theses changes are bad, unecessary tweaks or stupid ones. Apart for OVI speed buff. Avoiding the real problems. I'm going back to BW imo.
On August 21 2013 22:23 manniefresh wrote: I agree that instead of Armory Change they should just buff siege tank. My idea: New tank upgrade off tech lab:
Double Shot
Allows siege tank to fire twice for half damage.
This would make tank almost twice as effective against immortals, opening up mech for TvP.
You seem to forget that the Immortal is only ONE of many issues the tank currently has in TvP.
In BW, Protoss actually had a hard time dealing with tanks as their most effective units were very high tier with very high gas costs: HT w/ storm, and Carriers.
Lacking that massive gas available, the typical solution was to drop zealots out of a shuttle on top of the tanks and have the tanks kill each other while forcing your way into the fight with dragoons from as many angles as possible. This wasn't a great option, but effective enough to make an interesting MU.
In SC2, Stalkers have blink, Zealots have charge, Tanks take far more shots to kill Zealots compared to BW, and useful air units like the Void Ray and Phoenix are available much earlier than Carriers were in BW. Throw the Immortal in there and far reduced damage to Archon, and the Tank is just a weak unit vs Protoss all around.
If they wanted to make the Siege Tank good again in TvP, it would take a lot more than a specific anti-immortal buff.
And tank/mine were 2 supply, meanwhile in sc2 it's 5.
And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt
Because of the time needed for a decent raven force to be produced, and because of the infrastructure you need to produce them.
Mass Raven is as stupid as it is strong. But having that is really hard. Much harder than having 3 or 4 vipers in your army. And before 12 to 16 of them. They're not really useful. All theses changes are bad, unecessary tweaks or stupid ones. Apart for OVI speed buff. Avoiding the real problems. I'm going back to BW imo.
Zerg players are so used to unlocking unlimited and simultaneous production of a unit with a single tech building that they seem to forget this aspect of Terran design. These Terran units such as the Raven NEED to be really strong because of the long ass time to get the infrastructure up AND the production time is also pretty damn long. A t-lab starport costs 175/125 AND 75s seconds to build (50s if you have the t-lab beforehand) and that will let you make a single Raven at a time...ONE PER MINUTE.
Not to mention Ravens are nearly useless in low numbers whereas 3~5 Vipers (40secs to build all of them) are all Zerg needs.
On August 22 2013 02:22 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: And tank/mine were 2 supply, meanwhile in sc2 it's 5.
Tank was 2 supply. Spider mine was 0 supply so I don't think it counts, but if you wanna go down that road...a Vulture (75minerals)was 2 supply and had 3 spider mines, so thats 2/3 supply per mine if you count the Vulture (which were kind of disposable).
And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt
Because of the time needed for a decent raven force to be produced, and because of the infrastructure you need to produce them.
Mass Raven is as stupid as it is strong. But having that is really hard. Much harder than having 3 or 4 vipers in your army. And before 12 to 16 of them. They're not really useful. All theses changes are bad, unecessary tweaks or stupid ones. Apart for OVI speed buff. Avoiding the real problems. I'm going back to BW imo.
Zerg players are so used to unlocking unlimited and simultaneous production of a unit with a single tech building that they seem to forget this aspect of Terran design. These Terran units such as the Raven NEED to be really strong because of the long ass time to get the infrastructure up AND the production time is also pretty damn long. A t-lab starport costs 175/125 AND 75s seconds to build (50s if you have the t-lab beforehand) and that will let you make a single Raven at a time...ONE PER MINUTE.
Not to mention Ravens are nearly useless in low numbers whereas 3~5 Vipers (40secs to build all of them) are all Zerg needs.
Yes zerg´s are used to unlocking that "infinite" production. I still would like to remind you that getting that zerg t3 is a bit more difficult than building a star port. For example after getting the ultralisk cavern you still need to get an upgrade for them. Terrans have quite a lot of time to build a good amount of ravens at the current state of the game, cause they have no hurry to transition into anything. If the zerg ever gets to ultras or brood lords, terran can easily have 4-5 ravens to HSM everything and finish the job with 4M. And because of scans you can always know how close zerg is to getting those T3 heavy hitters, so it should not come as a surprise.
And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt
Because of the time needed for a decent raven force to be produced, and because of the infrastructure you need to produce them.
Mass Raven is as stupid as it is strong. But having that is really hard. Much harder than having 3 or 4 vipers in your army. And before 12 to 16 of them. They're not really useful. All theses changes are bad, unecessary tweaks or stupid ones. Apart for OVI speed buff. Avoiding the real problems. I'm going back to BW imo.
Zerg players are so used to unlocking unlimited and simultaneous production of a unit with a single tech building that they seem to forget this aspect of Terran design. These Terran units such as the Raven NEED to be really strong because of the long ass time to get the infrastructure up AND the production time is also pretty damn long. A t-lab starport costs 175/125 AND 75s seconds to build (50s if you have the t-lab beforehand) and that will let you make a single Raven at a time...ONE PER MINUTE.
Not to mention Ravens are nearly useless in low numbers whereas 3~5 Vipers (40secs to build all of them) are all Zerg needs.
Yes zerg´s are used to unlocking that "infinite" production. I still would like to remind you that getting that zerg t3 is a bit more difficult than building a star port. For example after getting the ultralisk cavern you still need to get an upgrade for them. Terrans have quite a lot of time to build a good amount of ravens at the current state of the game, cause they have no hurry to transition into anything. If the zerg ever gets to ultras or brood lords, terran can easily have 4-5 ravens to HSM everything and finish the job with 4M. And because of scans you can always know how close zerg is to getting those T3 heavy hitters, so it should not come as a surprise.
Wait, you're implying seekers are good vs Ultra? Wat? I rather have Marauders.
HSM is worthless vs Ultras and BLs haven't seen much play in HOTS because of the infestor nerfs and metagame changes and not because of IMBA SEEKERS. PDD is worthless vs mutalingbling into Ultra, and Auto Turret...lolautoturret.
My previous points still stand.
IMO Ravens are much better used(and also harder to get) with Mech than bio, and like I said, a few Ravens won't do much for the Terran.
And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt
Because of the time needed for a decent raven force to be produced, and because of the infrastructure you need to produce them.
Mass Raven is as stupid as it is strong. But having that is really hard. Much harder than having 3 or 4 vipers in your army. And before 12 to 16 of them. They're not really useful. All theses changes are bad, unecessary tweaks or stupid ones. Apart for OVI speed buff. Avoiding the real problems. I'm going back to BW imo.
Zerg players are so used to unlocking unlimited and simultaneous production of a unit with a single tech building that they seem to forget this aspect of Terran design. These Terran units such as the Raven NEED to be really strong because of the long ass time to get the infrastructure up AND the production time is also pretty damn long. A t-lab starport costs 175/125 AND 75s seconds to build (50s if you have the t-lab beforehand) and that will let you make a single Raven at a time...ONE PER MINUTE.
Not to mention Ravens are nearly useless in low numbers whereas 3~5 Vipers (40secs to build all of them) are all Zerg needs.
Yes zerg´s are used to unlocking that "infinite" production. I still would like to remind you that getting that zerg t3 is a bit more difficult than building a star port. For example after getting the ultralisk cavern you still need to get an upgrade for them. Terrans have quite a lot of time to build a good amount of ravens at the current state of the game, cause they have no hurry to transition into anything. If the zerg ever gets to ultras or brood lords, terran can easily have 4-5 ravens to HSM everything and finish the job with 4M. And because of scans you can always know how close zerg is to getting those T3 heavy hitters, so it should not come as a surprise.
Wait, you're implying seekers are good vs Ultra? Wat? I rather have Marauders.
HSM is worthless vs Ultras and BLs haven't seen much play in HOTS because of the infestor nerfs and metagame changes and not because of IMBA SEEKERS. PDD is worthless vs mutalingbling into Ultra, and Auto Turret...lolautoturret.
My previous points still stand.
IMO Ravens are much better used(and also harder to get) with Mech than bio, and like I said, a few Ravens won't do much for the Terran.
Autoturrets are the most annoying thing when deployed around expansions. I was merely pointing out that getting ravens is not that difficult for terran. You might remember that you play with the same units the entire game and only add more production and click the upgrade icons few times.
And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt
Because of the time needed for a decent raven force to be produced, and because of the infrastructure you need to produce them.
Mass Raven is as stupid as it is strong. But having that is really hard. Much harder than having 3 or 4 vipers in your army. And before 12 to 16 of them. They're not really useful. All theses changes are bad, unecessary tweaks or stupid ones. Apart for OVI speed buff. Avoiding the real problems. I'm going back to BW imo.
Zerg players are so used to unlocking unlimited and simultaneous production of a unit with a single tech building that they seem to forget this aspect of Terran design. These Terran units such as the Raven NEED to be really strong because of the long ass time to get the infrastructure up AND the production time is also pretty damn long. A t-lab starport costs 175/125 AND 75s seconds to build (50s if you have the t-lab beforehand) and that will let you make a single Raven at a time...ONE PER MINUTE.
Not to mention Ravens are nearly useless in low numbers whereas 3~5 Vipers (40secs to build all of them) are all Zerg needs.
Because no player has ever played more than one race. Comments like this need to go.
I am so sorry that your tech takes multiple buildings to use. Thankfully, it also means it is harder to get rid of though. You see, different races are different and each style has its pros and cons.
Also, 1 raven with PDD is a game changer. 4 ravens is insane. 4 full energy ravens with PDD? That blocks 160 corruptor shots. You know, corruptors... the slow firing "anti-massive" AA that sucks against almost everything? You dont need 15 ravens. I dont know who is coming up with that number. The only time you get that much is if you are still on biomine and that is because you are floating gas if you take all the gas at your expansions.
Ravens have no sinergy with fastplay and therefore bioplay. 1 medivac is far stronger with bio than 1 raven, AND you build them 2 at the 2/3 of the raven buildtime.
With sky, it have great conjonction. But skyterran is one if not the most gas heavy composition in the game, and also the one that takes the LONGER time to produce. With mech. Well, except TvT mech is onnly used to turtle while building skyterran. So it has no point there.
With only a few numbers of ravens (something you don't build with more than 1 SP, otherwise is just a huge mineral/gas waste). You can't have "infinit" energy, P.D.D are static, and have no real use unless you have skyterran or a huge number of tanks, (something you have to avoid except TvT, sometimes avoid them completly). Autoturrets, well, it's a joke? It's 3 range, 3 range with slow ravens, all your ground army blocking the way, agaist speedlots or lings and stuff. You never cast them, unless your opponnent is bad. And btw. They don't do anything. So wastinf your 4/5 ravens energy into autoturrets is just 4/5 ravens waster + SP production wasted, only for a defenss that isn't that great, while loosing all pretetion to attack since your money/supply is going into turtling mode.
When you have 20 ravens, it's something else, i agree. But when you have 20 ravens, you have skyterran; bioplay still don't fit with ravenplay, and mech is limited to thors and HB. When you ca afford this number of raven, you can afford vikings/banshee/BC as well, and they're better i every way. Faster/Flying/more effective.
4/5 raven is useless. 12+ is cool. The only time 4/5 ravens is great is whenn you're meching to deflect Ovi doom drop. But mech is gone, "there's just 3 tanks into skyterran".
I agree with RabidDeer. Ravens have their use even in low numbers(one will detect burrowed units and creep). Ravens are good against almost every zerg unit except lings (they outrun HSM to often), its just really hard to use them against units like ultras, especially on creep. Remember ultras are 6 supply and not mobile, ravens are 2 and can fly. I think it takes 5 HSM to almost kill and ultra, 6 to overkill it and anything next to it! Watch some of avilo's twitch vods against zerg. If you can drop HSM on zerg units, while kiting with bio, you can even up the battle. Id say practice against AI or use unit tester to get used to using ravens with bio. That being said, it is very hard to use ravens against zerg, and it can all go horribly wrong in an instant with say a money fungle.
At MTAC, making more than one TL starport vs hive tech is actually standard. It complements bio because of the gas bank and because mobility is very important with the new HSM. Players like Polt will get 2 extra starports as soon as its obvious zerg is turtling on hive tech. Lower leagues can usually make 4+ because they are floating money by late game. If you upgrade building range and armor, even auto turrets are decent at making quick walls to hide behind at chokes, a sort of terran version of FF (weak comparison i know). People don't see ravens in pro games because they are usually balanced on the edge of the 4M blade.
On August 21 2013 15:49 larse wrote: I think beside Korea, ZvT winrate is quite balanced. That lair to 3-3 suggestion is too overreacted.
TvP is the really broken matchup that needs to be fixed. The Season 3 Korean winrate TvP is about 30%. That's pretty broken.
According to TLPD the Up & Downs went like this: TvZ: 9-4 PvZ: 10-9 TvP: 11-4 So both have ~30% (in a tiny, tiny number of games) in Season 3 up to now.
OK. But still TvP is broken as hell. I mean, 30%...
On August 21 2013 15:49 larse wrote: I think beside Korea, ZvT winrate is quite balanced. That lair to 3-3 suggestion is too overreacted.
TvP is the really broken matchup that needs to be fixed. The Season 3 Korean winrate TvP is about 30%. That's pretty broken.
According to TLPD the Up & Downs went like this: TvZ: 9-4 PvZ: 10-9 TvP: 11-4 So both have ~30% (in a tiny, tiny number of games) in Season 3 up to now.
OK. But still TvP is broken as hell. I mean, 30%...
So you're going to decide a matchup is imba from only 15 matches. wow.
On August 21 2013 08:54 Deathstar34 wrote: You can buff late game Z all you want but if they cant get to the late game somewhat safely, then the ultra buff is useless. Zerg needs some sort of mid game buff against T to help them out.
This. This is what I've been saying a billion times.
Either a new mid-game unit, or hydras/SH need to be re-worked.
I'd prefer hydra being changed so that they apply 'special toxin' that reduces the regeneration and healing rate by 50%. That way, it won't really affect vs. Protoss or Zerg matchups because regeneration is pitfully slow during battle anyway, and only really hurts the medivac healing rate (which is pretty justified seeing as how 4M just completely demolishes Hydra/Roach if micro'd properly on both sides)
On August 21 2013 08:54 Deathstar34 wrote: You can buff late game Z all you want but if they cant get to the late game somewhat safely, then the ultra buff is useless. Zerg needs some sort of mid game buff against T to help them out.
This. This is what I've been saying a billion times.
Either a new mid-game unit, or hydras/SH need to be re-worked.
I'd prefer hydra being changed so that they apply 'special toxin' that reduces the regeneration and healing rate by 50%. That way, it won't really affect vs. Protoss or Zerg matchups because regeneration is pitfully slow during battle anyway, and only really hurts the medivac healing rate (which is pretty justified seeing as how 4M just completely demolishes Hydra/Roach if micro'd properly on both sides)
This is actually one of the best ideas I've read so far.
On August 21 2013 08:54 Deathstar34 wrote: You can buff late game Z all you want but if they cant get to the late game somewhat safely, then the ultra buff is useless. Zerg needs some sort of mid game buff against T to help them out.
This. This is what I've been saying a billion times.
Either a new mid-game unit, or hydras/SH need to be re-worked.
I'd prefer hydra being changed so that they apply 'special toxin' that reduces the regeneration and healing rate by 50%. That way, it won't really affect vs. Protoss or Zerg matchups because regeneration is pitfully slow during battle anyway, and only really hurts the medivac healing rate (which is pretty justified seeing as how 4M just completely demolishes Hydra/Roach if micro'd properly on both sides)
This is actually one of the best ideas I've read so far.
I think this has been a missed opportunity: someone taking community suggestions for reworking units or new abilities, testing them out, creating a short summary video about the results and posting it on youtube.
On August 21 2013 15:49 larse wrote: I think beside Korea, ZvT winrate is quite balanced. That lair to 3-3 suggestion is too overreacted.
TvP is the really broken matchup that needs to be fixed. The Season 3 Korean winrate TvP is about 30%. That's pretty broken.
According to TLPD the Up & Downs went like this: TvZ: 9-4 PvZ: 10-9 TvP: 11-4 So both have ~30% (in a tiny, tiny number of games) in Season 3 up to now.
OK. But still TvP is broken as hell. I mean, 30%...
So both have the same win rate and you just happily ignore the one your race is winning?
Imo infestors need to be made useful in TvZ against Terrans who know how to split. Once you split bio, infestors is a piece of junk. IT are worthless. Even a money fungal is useless unless you can chain two, and then the Terran can reproduce those marines really fast if they can macro. Low hp marines are just as good at splitting and raping Ling bling muta and sniping hatcheries. so fungals that don't kill aren't very useful at all.
Zerg late game is already good enough, it's not broken, but it's strong, especially if T3 units get massed. However, even pro Zergs die before they reach Ultras in a very cheap fashion. I, for one, despise the Widow Mine, I was the avid anti-Widow Mine from the early beta days. But it's here to stay, I'm just a Diamond League player and my mechanics might not be the best ones, but again, Widow Mines are way too strong and way too easy to use (don't even try to compare Widow Mines to Burrowed Banelings). For one, Zerg cannot scout out the "ahead" territory with a detector if the army is there, while other races can, that's my argument and that discussion is pointless.
Zerg really needs some help in the mid game, as many do not make it out alive, even if the opponent is not all-inning.
Viper is a "meh" unit. Too strong versus mech and very weak versus bio, hence why it's not really reliable.
On August 21 2013 08:54 Deathstar34 wrote: You can buff late game Z all you want but if they cant get to the late game somewhat safely, then the ultra buff is useless. Zerg needs some sort of mid game buff against T to help them out.
This. This is what I've been saying a billion times.
Either a new mid-game unit, or hydras/SH need to be re-worked.
I'd prefer hydra being changed so that they apply 'special toxin' that reduces the regeneration and healing rate by 50%. That way, it won't really affect vs. Protoss or Zerg matchups because regeneration is pitfully slow during battle anyway, and only really hurts the medivac healing rate (which is pretty justified seeing as how 4M just completely demolishes Hydra/Roach if micro'd properly on both sides)
Fantastic idea, this would be a great way to encourage diversity in TvZ and maybe bring more tanks back to the mu
On August 21 2013 08:54 Deathstar34 wrote: You can buff late game Z all you want but if they cant get to the late game somewhat safely, then the ultra buff is useless. Zerg needs some sort of mid game buff against T to help them out.
This. This is what I've been saying a billion times.
Either a new mid-game unit, or hydras/SH need to be re-worked.
I'd prefer hydra being changed so that they apply 'special toxin' that reduces the regeneration and healing rate by 50%. That way, it won't really affect vs. Protoss or Zerg matchups because regeneration is pitfully slow during battle anyway, and only really hurts the medivac healing rate (which is pretty justified seeing as how 4M just completely demolishes Hydra/Roach if micro'd properly on both sides)
Fantastic idea, this would be a great way to encourage diversity in TvZ and maybe bring more tanks back to the mu
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote: The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth basewhile Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.
The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
The only reason BC's have ever been "bad" against zerg is because they are 0-0 upgrades in the lategame. BC's, ravens and ghosts are all viable in the late game for terran though, really.
I wouldnt mind seeing cloaked ghost queen sniping into tech nuking. 2 nukes kills any tech building. Send in 5 or 6 ghosts while turtling, kill the main + nat + 3rd + macro hatch queen -> nuke all the tech.
Obviously there is no Neural Parasite, no "vs massive Corruptors" and no "machinegun Hydras" (BCs are even slower than slow Hydras off creep). And there probably isnt an Abduct spell either now, eh?
Ghosts - which are Tier 2 units which were NOT the topic - dont deal nearly enough damage for their cost when they run out of energy because they are squishy "vs. light specialists" and a big part of the damage Zerg deals does not come from light units.
Ravens are super expensive at 200 gas apiece and thus can never really achieve the efficiency of Infestors AND their "fighting unit" costs 50 energy and requires building squares and thus isnt as spammable and as "concentratable" as the Infested Terrans of the Infestor. Their other two spells are far too expensive to be useable all the time because you wont ever have the 25+ of them as it was possible for the Infestor. Too bad the Seeker Missile got nerfed so much that it doesnt really do AoE anymore (because most of the time only one target gets hit). Even if the Terran had the gas to build 25 Ravens that would take AGES since they cant just do it in one production cycle so the unit has at max a supporting role. Numbers - "critical numbers" at that - affect the power of a unit and in the case of energy units it is important to have enough of them so you can "always have a Fungal" or "always Forcefield" ... and that is simply unrealistic for the Raven. Dont look at them when they are doing something ... look at them over the course of "the whole war".
Corruptors are "meh" against BC's. Raven/BC is even worse thanks to PDD and HSM. Hydras are BAD against BC's. Why would you think a low damage fast firing unit is good against a high armor unit? Do you think marines are good against ultralisks? The only thing that works is abduct and neural, both of which can be hard to pull off.
Tier system is archaic and has always been questionable. Ghosts are tier 3 infantry in my mind. I dont understand why their damage while uncloaked is what you choose to point out since they just killed off a majority of production and all of the tech at a supply cost of 10. 5 ghosts isnt making an army of ghosts or something.
And are you really saying the raven sucks? REALLY? And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt?
The problem is that you ignored the most important point of my argument ... the NUMBERS of the units (not their stats but how many there are).
Raven sucks because you will usually have only 3-4 of them and this means they will run out of energy "as a group". The Infestor became a problem because 25+ would NOT run out of energy as a group and there would always be enough for a Fungal. Added to this "energy problem" is the fact that Seeker Missile has become rather bad in that its target is so obviously announced. The original "slow homing" version was much harder to detect AND it had the added effect of scaring away the enemy units as a group. The current version is easy to "counter" because you simply move the big red glowing unit from the front.
Hydras are awesome against BCs, because "Skyterran" doesnt start with the flip of a switch and which other unit would you start massing against that? With the Viper and its Abduct spell AND a clump of Hydras you can easily get rid of BCs. I have seen games where a Colossus got pulled into a group of Zerg units and died in HALF A SECOND. Sure it will take a bit longer to kill the BC, but there is no doubt as to the end.
You really need to learn to look behind the unit stats and look at the realities of a game. Ground infantry is easily massed but high tech Terran units like the BC arent. Ultralisks are Zerg units and they never come alone but rather come with many Ultralisks AND they have REALLY BIG AoE damage which kills Marines easily. Does the BC have the same to scare Hydralisks? No!
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote: The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth basewhile Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.
The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
The only reason BC's have ever been "bad" against zerg is because they are 0-0 upgrades in the lategame. BC's, ravens and ghosts are all viable in the late game for terran though, really.
I wouldnt mind seeing cloaked ghost queen sniping into tech nuking. 2 nukes kills any tech building. Send in 5 or 6 ghosts while turtling, kill the main + nat + 3rd + macro hatch queen -> nuke all the tech.
Obviously there is no Neural Parasite, no "vs massive Corruptors" and no "machinegun Hydras" (BCs are even slower than slow Hydras off creep). And there probably isnt an Abduct spell either now, eh?
Ghosts - which are Tier 2 units which were NOT the topic - dont deal nearly enough damage for their cost when they run out of energy because they are squishy "vs. light specialists" and a big part of the damage Zerg deals does not come from light units.
Ravens are super expensive at 200 gas apiece and thus can never really achieve the efficiency of Infestors AND their "fighting unit" costs 50 energy and requires building squares and thus isnt as spammable and as "concentratable" as the Infested Terrans of the Infestor. Their other two spells are far too expensive to be useable all the time because you wont ever have the 25+ of them as it was possible for the Infestor. Too bad the Seeker Missile got nerfed so much that it doesnt really do AoE anymore (because most of the time only one target gets hit). Even if the Terran had the gas to build 25 Ravens that would take AGES since they cant just do it in one production cycle so the unit has at max a supporting role. Numbers - "critical numbers" at that - affect the power of a unit and in the case of energy units it is important to have enough of them so you can "always have a Fungal" or "always Forcefield" ... and that is simply unrealistic for the Raven. Dont look at them when they are doing something ... look at them over the course of "the whole war".
Corruptors are "meh" against BC's. Raven/BC is even worse thanks to PDD and HSM. Hydras are BAD against BC's. Why would you think a low damage fast firing unit is good against a high armor unit? Do you think marines are good against ultralisks? The only thing that works is abduct and neural, both of which can be hard to pull off.
Tier system is archaic and has always been questionable. Ghosts are tier 3 infantry in my mind. I dont understand why their damage while uncloaked is what you choose to point out since they just killed off a majority of production and all of the tech at a supply cost of 10. 5 ghosts isnt making an army of ghosts or something.
And are you really saying the raven sucks? REALLY? And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt?
The problem is that you ignored the most important point of my argument ... the NUMBERS of the units (not their stats but how many there are).
Raven sucks because you will usually have only 3-4 of them and this means they will run out of energy "as a group". The Infestor became a problem because 25+ would NOT run out of energy as a group and there would always be enough for a Fungal. Added to this "energy problem" is the fact that Seeker Missile has become rather bad in that its target is so obviously announced. The original "slow homing" version was much harder to detect AND it had the added effect of scaring away the enemy units as a group. The current version is easy to "counter" because you simply move the big red glowing unit from the front.
Hydras are awesome against BCs, because "Skyterran" doesnt start with the flip of a switch and which other unit would you start massing against that? With the Viper and its Abduct spell AND a clump of Hydras you can easily get rid of BCs. I have seen games where a Colossus got pulled into a group of Zerg units and died in HALF A SECOND. Sure it will take a bit longer to kill the BC, but there is no doubt as to the end.
You really need to learn to look behind the unit stats and look at the realities of a game. Ground infantry is easily massed but high tech Terran units like the BC arent. Ultralisks are Zerg units and they never come alone but rather come with many Ultralisks AND they have REALLY BIG AoE damage which kills Marines easily. Does the BC have the same to scare Hydralisks? No!
so you compare a single BC to a hydra/viper army? wtf? either you have some BC and ravens which also means you will have a lot of MMMM leftover which laugh at hydras or if going mech you will have tanks, BF helions (which also own hydras) etc.
compare armies and not single units doing vs an army. only way to fight BC raven + support army for Z is hiding behind spores with SH and viper and reason is that hydras DO suck. its just the opposite of what you say. Z AA is so horrible that Z has to hide behind mass spores vs both T and P air once they reach their composition (hydrabased armies are always a (semi) all in army where you need to do so much damage you can either kill them or transition into SH + spores which is so boring).
really hope they nerf SH + spore turtle (just make SHs better in lower numbers and worse in big numbers) and compensate by finally buffing hydras to a viable level and give Z a way to deal with spellcasters which is reason no.2 Z hides behind spores with SHs since nothing else but SHs can deal with HTs or mass ravens.
--> BC raven + support is the strongest army in TvZ, its getting there wheres the problem. MMMM forces Z to go T3 units...the same should be done with T. so buff units like viper and infestors to make MMMM on a timer like ling bane muta and buff the transition possibilities from bio to mech/air (thats why i like the upgrade buff for T: it makes the transition easier but its not enough). for example remove the energy upgrade for ravens and lower armory cost while increasing bio +3 +3 upgrade cost so mech gets buffed, bio nerfed (only at +3 +3) and bio can start mech/air upgrades earlier/its easier to transition to T3.
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote: The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth basewhile Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.
The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
The only reason BC's have ever been "bad" against zerg is because they are 0-0 upgrades in the lategame. BC's, ravens and ghosts are all viable in the late game for terran though, really.
I wouldnt mind seeing cloaked ghost queen sniping into tech nuking. 2 nukes kills any tech building. Send in 5 or 6 ghosts while turtling, kill the main + nat + 3rd + macro hatch queen -> nuke all the tech.
Obviously there is no Neural Parasite, no "vs massive Corruptors" and no "machinegun Hydras" (BCs are even slower than slow Hydras off creep). And there probably isnt an Abduct spell either now, eh?
Ghosts - which are Tier 2 units which were NOT the topic - dont deal nearly enough damage for their cost when they run out of energy because they are squishy "vs. light specialists" and a big part of the damage Zerg deals does not come from light units.
Ravens are super expensive at 200 gas apiece and thus can never really achieve the efficiency of Infestors AND their "fighting unit" costs 50 energy and requires building squares and thus isnt as spammable and as "concentratable" as the Infested Terrans of the Infestor. Their other two spells are far too expensive to be useable all the time because you wont ever have the 25+ of them as it was possible for the Infestor. Too bad the Seeker Missile got nerfed so much that it doesnt really do AoE anymore (because most of the time only one target gets hit). Even if the Terran had the gas to build 25 Ravens that would take AGES since they cant just do it in one production cycle so the unit has at max a supporting role. Numbers - "critical numbers" at that - affect the power of a unit and in the case of energy units it is important to have enough of them so you can "always have a Fungal" or "always Forcefield" ... and that is simply unrealistic for the Raven. Dont look at them when they are doing something ... look at them over the course of "the whole war".
Corruptors are "meh" against BC's. Raven/BC is even worse thanks to PDD and HSM. Hydras are BAD against BC's. Why would you think a low damage fast firing unit is good against a high armor unit? Do you think marines are good against ultralisks? The only thing that works is abduct and neural, both of which can be hard to pull off.
Tier system is archaic and has always been questionable. Ghosts are tier 3 infantry in my mind. I dont understand why their damage while uncloaked is what you choose to point out since they just killed off a majority of production and all of the tech at a supply cost of 10. 5 ghosts isnt making an army of ghosts or something.
And are you really saying the raven sucks? REALLY? And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt?
The problem is that you ignored the most important point of my argument ... the NUMBERS of the units (not their stats but how many there are).
Raven sucks because you will usually have only 3-4 of them and this means they will run out of energy "as a group". The Infestor became a problem because 25+ would NOT run out of energy as a group and there would always be enough for a Fungal. Added to this "energy problem" is the fact that Seeker Missile has become rather bad in that its target is so obviously announced. The original "slow homing" version was much harder to detect AND it had the added effect of scaring away the enemy units as a group. The current version is easy to "counter" because you simply move the big red glowing unit from the front.
Hydras are awesome against BCs, because "Skyterran" doesnt start with the flip of a switch and which other unit would you start massing against that? With the Viper and its Abduct spell AND a clump of Hydras you can easily get rid of BCs. I have seen games where a Colossus got pulled into a group of Zerg units and died in HALF A SECOND. Sure it will take a bit longer to kill the BC, but there is no doubt as to the end.
You really need to learn to look behind the unit stats and look at the realities of a game. Ground infantry is easily massed but high tech Terran units like the BC arent. Ultralisks are Zerg units and they never come alone but rather come with many Ultralisks AND they have REALLY BIG AoE damage which kills Marines easily. Does the BC have the same to scare Hydralisks? No!
so you compare a single BC to a hydra/viper army? wtf? either you have some BC and ravens which also means you will have a lot of MMMM leftover which laugh at hydras or if going mech you will have tanks, BF helions (which also own hydras) etc.
compare armies and not single units doing vs an army. only way to fight BC raven + support army for Z is hiding behind spores with SH and viper and reason is that hydras DO suck. its just the opposite of what you say. Z AA is so horrible that Z has to hide behind mass spores vs both T and P air once they reach their composition (hydrabased armies are always a (semi) all in army where you need to do so much damage you can either kill them or transition into SH + spores which is so boring).
really hope they nerf SH + spore turtle (just make SHs better in lower numbers and worse in big numbers) and compensate by finally buffing hydras to a viable level and give Z a way to deal with spellcasters which is reason no.2 Z hides behind spores with SHs since nothing else but SHs can deal with HTs or mass ravens.
--> BC raven + support is the strongest army in TvZ, its getting there wheres the problem. MMMM forces Z to go T3 units...the same should be done with T. so buff units like viper and infestors to make MMMM on a timer like ling bane muta and buff the transition possibilities from bio to mech/air (thats why i like the upgrade buff for T: it makes the transition easier but its not enough). for example remove the energy upgrade for ravens and lower armory cost while increasing bio +3 +3 upgrade cost so mech gets buffed, bio nerfed (only at +3 +3) and bio can start mech/air upgrades earlier/its easier to transition to T3.
Actually, the typical 4M (Ie, Innovation) push against zerg IS on a timer because it is usually done off 3 bases and parading units across the map. Problem is that the time between marines getting 3-3 and when minerals running out for the terran is fairly long and a majority of the time, the zerg is already dead or limited to 3 bases where their minerals are running out as well.
The key to balance is to shortening this window without closing it like 6 queens-->infestor/ling-->BL did in WoL. Because if the zerg can stablize easily on 4 bases with 75 drones while the terran is still on 3, it will become WoL ZvT again.
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote: The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth basewhile Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.
The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
The only reason BC's have ever been "bad" against zerg is because they are 0-0 upgrades in the lategame. BC's, ravens and ghosts are all viable in the late game for terran though, really.
I wouldnt mind seeing cloaked ghost queen sniping into tech nuking. 2 nukes kills any tech building. Send in 5 or 6 ghosts while turtling, kill the main + nat + 3rd + macro hatch queen -> nuke all the tech.
Obviously there is no Neural Parasite, no "vs massive Corruptors" and no "machinegun Hydras" (BCs are even slower than slow Hydras off creep). And there probably isnt an Abduct spell either now, eh?
Ghosts - which are Tier 2 units which were NOT the topic - dont deal nearly enough damage for their cost when they run out of energy because they are squishy "vs. light specialists" and a big part of the damage Zerg deals does not come from light units.
Ravens are super expensive at 200 gas apiece and thus can never really achieve the efficiency of Infestors AND their "fighting unit" costs 50 energy and requires building squares and thus isnt as spammable and as "concentratable" as the Infested Terrans of the Infestor. Their other two spells are far too expensive to be useable all the time because you wont ever have the 25+ of them as it was possible for the Infestor. Too bad the Seeker Missile got nerfed so much that it doesnt really do AoE anymore (because most of the time only one target gets hit). Even if the Terran had the gas to build 25 Ravens that would take AGES since they cant just do it in one production cycle so the unit has at max a supporting role. Numbers - "critical numbers" at that - affect the power of a unit and in the case of energy units it is important to have enough of them so you can "always have a Fungal" or "always Forcefield" ... and that is simply unrealistic for the Raven. Dont look at them when they are doing something ... look at them over the course of "the whole war".
Corruptors are "meh" against BC's. Raven/BC is even worse thanks to PDD and HSM. Hydras are BAD against BC's. Why would you think a low damage fast firing unit is good against a high armor unit? Do you think marines are good against ultralisks? The only thing that works is abduct and neural, both of which can be hard to pull off.
Tier system is archaic and has always been questionable. Ghosts are tier 3 infantry in my mind. I dont understand why their damage while uncloaked is what you choose to point out since they just killed off a majority of production and all of the tech at a supply cost of 10. 5 ghosts isnt making an army of ghosts or something.
And are you really saying the raven sucks? REALLY? And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt?
The problem is that you ignored the most important point of my argument ... the NUMBERS of the units (not their stats but how many there are).
Raven sucks because you will usually have only 3-4 of them and this means they will run out of energy "as a group". The Infestor became a problem because 25+ would NOT run out of energy as a group and there would always be enough for a Fungal. Added to this "energy problem" is the fact that Seeker Missile has become rather bad in that its target is so obviously announced. The original "slow homing" version was much harder to detect AND it had the added effect of scaring away the enemy units as a group. The current version is easy to "counter" because you simply move the big red glowing unit from the front.
Hydras are awesome against BCs, because "Skyterran" doesnt start with the flip of a switch and which other unit would you start massing against that? With the Viper and its Abduct spell AND a clump of Hydras you can easily get rid of BCs. I have seen games where a Colossus got pulled into a group of Zerg units and died in HALF A SECOND. Sure it will take a bit longer to kill the BC, but there is no doubt as to the end.
You really need to learn to look behind the unit stats and look at the realities of a game. Ground infantry is easily massed but high tech Terran units like the BC arent. Ultralisks are Zerg units and they never come alone but rather come with many Ultralisks AND they have REALLY BIG AoE damage which kills Marines easily. Does the BC have the same to scare Hydralisks? No!
so you compare a single BC to a hydra/viper army? wtf? either you have some BC and ravens which also means you will have a lot of MMMM leftover which laugh at hydras or if going mech you will have tanks, BF helions (which also own hydras) etc.
compare armies and not single units doing vs an army. only way to fight BC raven + support army for Z is hiding behind spores with SH and viper and reason is that hydras DO suck. its just the opposite of what you say. Z AA is so horrible that Z has to hide behind mass spores vs both T and P air once they reach their composition (hydrabased armies are always a (semi) all in army where you need to do so much damage you can either kill them or transition into SH + spores which is so boring).
really hope they nerf SH + spore turtle (just make SHs better in lower numbers and worse in big numbers) and compensate by finally buffing hydras to a viable level and give Z a way to deal with spellcasters which is reason no.2 Z hides behind spores with SHs since nothing else but SHs can deal with HTs or mass ravens.
--> BC raven + support is the strongest army in TvZ, its getting there wheres the problem. MMMM forces Z to go T3 units...the same should be done with T. so buff units like viper and infestors to make MMMM on a timer like ling bane muta and buff the transition possibilities from bio to mech/air (thats why i like the upgrade buff for T: it makes the transition easier but its not enough). for example remove the energy upgrade for ravens and lower armory cost while increasing bio +3 +3 upgrade cost so mech gets buffed, bio nerfed (only at +3 +3) and bio can start mech/air upgrades earlier/its easier to transition to T3.
Actually, the typical 4M (Ie, Innovation) push against zerg IS on a timer because it is usually done off 3 bases and parading units across the map. Problem is that the time between marines getting 3-3 and when minerals running out for the terran is fairly long and a majority of the time, the zerg is already dead or limited to 3 bases where their minerals are running out as well.
The key to balance is to shortening this window without closing it like 6 queens-->infestor/ling-->BL did in WoL. Because if the zerg can stablize easily on 4 bases with 75 drones while the terran is still on 3, it will become WoL ZvT again.
agree but like you said its like a REALLY long timer and if you rewatch games where T doesnt manage to kill the Z they just get a 4th, add production facilities and have their 3 3 MMMM army which isnt exactly bad ;-) MMMM is now on a timer (and a huge timer) to get a 4th and be on equal level with Z. 3 base parade pushes arent an all in if you have 65 SCVs which is enough for T and 3 3 with a unit comp that can deal with ultra infestors by just adding a 4th CC and some teclab rax. if Z manages to not take too much damage and get ultra infestor out its an even game, not Z favored so not really a timer that forces T to add tanks or ravens or BCs whatever and right now its obv better to stay on MMMM. i would like it if 3 things happen: Z gets a way to get T3 out, T needs to transition out of MMMM (in is forced) and T gets their transition buffed. so that MMMM is on a real timer but also its easier to transition to mech/air for bio which right now isnt possible (although now easier with combined ups but not enough).
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote: The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth basewhile Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.
The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
The only reason BC's have ever been "bad" against zerg is because they are 0-0 upgrades in the lategame. BC's, ravens and ghosts are all viable in the late game for terran though, really.
I wouldnt mind seeing cloaked ghost queen sniping into tech nuking. 2 nukes kills any tech building. Send in 5 or 6 ghosts while turtling, kill the main + nat + 3rd + macro hatch queen -> nuke all the tech.
Obviously there is no Neural Parasite, no "vs massive Corruptors" and no "machinegun Hydras" (BCs are even slower than slow Hydras off creep). And there probably isnt an Abduct spell either now, eh?
Ghosts - which are Tier 2 units which were NOT the topic - dont deal nearly enough damage for their cost when they run out of energy because they are squishy "vs. light specialists" and a big part of the damage Zerg deals does not come from light units.
Ravens are super expensive at 200 gas apiece and thus can never really achieve the efficiency of Infestors AND their "fighting unit" costs 50 energy and requires building squares and thus isnt as spammable and as "concentratable" as the Infested Terrans of the Infestor. Their other two spells are far too expensive to be useable all the time because you wont ever have the 25+ of them as it was possible for the Infestor. Too bad the Seeker Missile got nerfed so much that it doesnt really do AoE anymore (because most of the time only one target gets hit). Even if the Terran had the gas to build 25 Ravens that would take AGES since they cant just do it in one production cycle so the unit has at max a supporting role. Numbers - "critical numbers" at that - affect the power of a unit and in the case of energy units it is important to have enough of them so you can "always have a Fungal" or "always Forcefield" ... and that is simply unrealistic for the Raven. Dont look at them when they are doing something ... look at them over the course of "the whole war".
Corruptors are "meh" against BC's. Raven/BC is even worse thanks to PDD and HSM. Hydras are BAD against BC's. Why would you think a low damage fast firing unit is good against a high armor unit? Do you think marines are good against ultralisks? The only thing that works is abduct and neural, both of which can be hard to pull off.
Tier system is archaic and has always been questionable. Ghosts are tier 3 infantry in my mind. I dont understand why their damage while uncloaked is what you choose to point out since they just killed off a majority of production and all of the tech at a supply cost of 10. 5 ghosts isnt making an army of ghosts or something.
And are you really saying the raven sucks? REALLY? And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt?
The problem is that you ignored the most important point of my argument ... the NUMBERS of the units (not their stats but how many there are).
Raven sucks because you will usually have only 3-4 of them and this means they will run out of energy "as a group". The Infestor became a problem because 25+ would NOT run out of energy as a group and there would always be enough for a Fungal. Added to this "energy problem" is the fact that Seeker Missile has become rather bad in that its target is so obviously announced. The original "slow homing" version was much harder to detect AND it had the added effect of scaring away the enemy units as a group. The current version is easy to "counter" because you simply move the big red glowing unit from the front.
Hydras are awesome against BCs, because "Skyterran" doesnt start with the flip of a switch and which other unit would you start massing against that? With the Viper and its Abduct spell AND a clump of Hydras you can easily get rid of BCs. I have seen games where a Colossus got pulled into a group of Zerg units and died in HALF A SECOND. Sure it will take a bit longer to kill the BC, but there is no doubt as to the end.
You really need to learn to look behind the unit stats and look at the realities of a game. Ground infantry is easily massed but high tech Terran units like the BC arent. Ultralisks are Zerg units and they never come alone but rather come with many Ultralisks AND they have REALLY BIG AoE damage which kills Marines easily. Does the BC have the same to scare Hydralisks? No!
so you compare a single BC to a hydra/viper army? wtf? either you have some BC and ravens which also means you will have a lot of MMMM leftover which laugh at hydras or if going mech you will have tanks, BF helions (which also own hydras) etc.
compare armies and not single units doing vs an army. only way to fight BC raven + support army for Z is hiding behind spores with SH and viper and reason is that hydras DO suck. its just the opposite of what you say. Z AA is so horrible that Z has to hide behind mass spores vs both T and P air once they reach their composition (hydrabased armies are always a (semi) all in army where you need to do so much damage you can either kill them or transition into SH + spores which is so boring).
really hope they nerf SH + spore turtle (just make SHs better in lower numbers and worse in big numbers) and compensate by finally buffing hydras to a viable level and give Z a way to deal with spellcasters which is reason no.2 Z hides behind spores with SHs since nothing else but SHs can deal with HTs or mass ravens.
--> BC raven + support is the strongest army in TvZ, its getting there wheres the problem. MMMM forces Z to go T3 units...the same should be done with T. so buff units like viper and infestors to make MMMM on a timer like ling bane muta and buff the transition possibilities from bio to mech/air (thats why i like the upgrade buff for T: it makes the transition easier but its not enough). for example remove the energy upgrade for ravens and lower armory cost while increasing bio +3 +3 upgrade cost so mech gets buffed, bio nerfed (only at +3 +3) and bio can start mech/air upgrades earlier/its easier to transition to T3.
Isnt it obvious why I compare one BC with an army? Because that is the reality. BCs take AGES to mass and at most someone will have 5-6 of them with maybe a handful of Ravens. The Zerg opponent will have lots of Corruptors and/or Hydralisks - we were talking about the oh so powerful Skyterran and those two units are the only ones available to counter that - and a few Vipers. Those Vipers pull the expensive stuff on top of the Hydralisks and then the BCs simply evaporate ... one after the other without the chance to deal significant damage.
The rarely available Seeker Missile wont help against Hydras or Corruptors because it is far too easy to counter it and the PDD only stops 20 shots and is immobile in any case.
@RabidDeer Vipers are much more powerful because Zerg can produce any number of them at the same time while it is far harder for a Terran to produce a large number of Ravens ... Starports and Tech labs cost a lot of resources to build in the first place. You completely ignore the production capability of Zerg again ...
On August 21 2013 17:28 Shousan wrote: The problem I see with TvZ is that mid/late game composition for T is basically the same just in higher numbers while establishing a fourth basewhile Z has to go higher on their tech tree while still matching constant production and attacks from T, this is why it always seemed as if Z needed to continue with a mid game composition of mass muta ling bling just because there's not enough time to tech up, establish more bases and defend multiple drops and pushes, and in the end it just becomes impossible to match a 3/3 terran army with that composition.
People have been trying to go for different compositions but they fail at constantly trading and killing key terran units (medivacs), the ultralisk buff isn't really that big of a deal because in order to fully take advantage of ultras you need infestors and that composition comes a little too late IMO, And even then, 50hp sounds just weird...
I'd love it if this in fact changed how TvZ plays out in the late stages of the game, but I'm not very optimistic, I think more areas should be explored, maybe a corruptor change could make a roach ling bling corruptor composition more viable (having another viable unit composition would be awesome) or 3/3 with infestation pit just to get more even trades and allow the Z to tech up...
I like the other changes, making mech more viable will be helpful to bring more diversity to all matchups which is always a good thing.
Swap that part with "can go higher tech" ... nothing high tech on the Terran side makes any sense at all and even Ravens - which are awesome when you have the energy to use them - cant keep up with the reproduction rate of Zerg. Battlecruisers have been useless against Zerg ever since the first day of WoL and nothing has changed ... except that they are even more useless nowadays with Abduct added to the Zerg arsenal.
/trade WTB scrolls of Irradiate and Defensive Matrix to teach to Ravens since the stupid engineers seem to have forgotten its secrets in just five years.
The reason for the "T3 problems" lie in the extremely high concentration of small AA units which maximizes their firepower while the "clump up punishing abilities" have been nerfed. Even Seeker Missile gets a five second warning and nice red glow as a warning so you can get every other unit out of the way. Completely stupid and Blizzard should really stop with that nonsense.
The only reason BC's have ever been "bad" against zerg is because they are 0-0 upgrades in the lategame. BC's, ravens and ghosts are all viable in the late game for terran though, really.
I wouldnt mind seeing cloaked ghost queen sniping into tech nuking. 2 nukes kills any tech building. Send in 5 or 6 ghosts while turtling, kill the main + nat + 3rd + macro hatch queen -> nuke all the tech.
Obviously there is no Neural Parasite, no "vs massive Corruptors" and no "machinegun Hydras" (BCs are even slower than slow Hydras off creep). And there probably isnt an Abduct spell either now, eh?
Ghosts - which are Tier 2 units which were NOT the topic - dont deal nearly enough damage for their cost when they run out of energy because they are squishy "vs. light specialists" and a big part of the damage Zerg deals does not come from light units.
Ravens are super expensive at 200 gas apiece and thus can never really achieve the efficiency of Infestors AND their "fighting unit" costs 50 energy and requires building squares and thus isnt as spammable and as "concentratable" as the Infested Terrans of the Infestor. Their other two spells are far too expensive to be useable all the time because you wont ever have the 25+ of them as it was possible for the Infestor. Too bad the Seeker Missile got nerfed so much that it doesnt really do AoE anymore (because most of the time only one target gets hit). Even if the Terran had the gas to build 25 Ravens that would take AGES since they cant just do it in one production cycle so the unit has at max a supporting role. Numbers - "critical numbers" at that - affect the power of a unit and in the case of energy units it is important to have enough of them so you can "always have a Fungal" or "always Forcefield" ... and that is simply unrealistic for the Raven. Dont look at them when they are doing something ... look at them over the course of "the whole war".
Corruptors are "meh" against BC's. Raven/BC is even worse thanks to PDD and HSM. Hydras are BAD against BC's. Why would you think a low damage fast firing unit is good against a high armor unit? Do you think marines are good against ultralisks? The only thing that works is abduct and neural, both of which can be hard to pull off.
Tier system is archaic and has always been questionable. Ghosts are tier 3 infantry in my mind. I dont understand why their damage while uncloaked is what you choose to point out since they just killed off a majority of production and all of the tech at a supply cost of 10. 5 ghosts isnt making an army of ghosts or something.
And are you really saying the raven sucks? REALLY? And why is 200 gas so much for terran but the 200 gas viper isnt?
The problem is that you ignored the most important point of my argument ... the NUMBERS of the units (not their stats but how many there are).
Raven sucks because you will usually have only 3-4 of them and this means they will run out of energy "as a group". The Infestor became a problem because 25+ would NOT run out of energy as a group and there would always be enough for a Fungal. Added to this "energy problem" is the fact that Seeker Missile has become rather bad in that its target is so obviously announced. The original "slow homing" version was much harder to detect AND it had the added effect of scaring away the enemy units as a group. The current version is easy to "counter" because you simply move the big red glowing unit from the front.
Hydras are awesome against BCs, because "Skyterran" doesnt start with the flip of a switch and which other unit would you start massing against that? With the Viper and its Abduct spell AND a clump of Hydras you can easily get rid of BCs. I have seen games where a Colossus got pulled into a group of Zerg units and died in HALF A SECOND. Sure it will take a bit longer to kill the BC, but there is no doubt as to the end.
You really need to learn to look behind the unit stats and look at the realities of a game. Ground infantry is easily massed but high tech Terran units like the BC arent. Ultralisks are Zerg units and they never come alone but rather come with many Ultralisks AND they have REALLY BIG AoE damage which kills Marines easily. Does the BC have the same to scare Hydralisks? No!
so you compare a single BC to a hydra/viper army? wtf? either you have some BC and ravens which also means you will have a lot of MMMM leftover which laugh at hydras or if going mech you will have tanks, BF helions (which also own hydras) etc.
compare armies and not single units doing vs an army. only way to fight BC raven + support army for Z is hiding behind spores with SH and viper and reason is that hydras DO suck. its just the opposite of what you say. Z AA is so horrible that Z has to hide behind mass spores vs both T and P air once they reach their composition (hydrabased armies are always a (semi) all in army where you need to do so much damage you can either kill them or transition into SH + spores which is so boring).
really hope they nerf SH + spore turtle (just make SHs better in lower numbers and worse in big numbers) and compensate by finally buffing hydras to a viable level and give Z a way to deal with spellcasters which is reason no.2 Z hides behind spores with SHs since nothing else but SHs can deal with HTs or mass ravens.
--> BC raven + support is the strongest army in TvZ, its getting there wheres the problem. MMMM forces Z to go T3 units...the same should be done with T. so buff units like viper and infestors to make MMMM on a timer like ling bane muta and buff the transition possibilities from bio to mech/air (thats why i like the upgrade buff for T: it makes the transition easier but its not enough). for example remove the energy upgrade for ravens and lower armory cost while increasing bio +3 +3 upgrade cost so mech gets buffed, bio nerfed (only at +3 +3) and bio can start mech/air upgrades earlier/its easier to transition to T3.
Isnt it obvious why I compare one BC with an army? Because that is the reality. BCs take AGES to mass and at most someone will have 5-6 of them with maybe a handful of Ravens. The Zerg opponent will have lots of Corruptors and/or Hydralisks - we were talking about the oh so powerful Skyterran and those two units are the only ones available to counter that - and a few Vipers. Those Vipers pull the expensive stuff on top of the Hydralisks and then the BCs simply evaporate ... one after the other without the chance to deal significant damage.
The rarely available Seeker Missile wont help against Hydras or Corruptors because it is far too easy to counter it and the PDD only stops 20 shots and is immobile in any case.
@RabidDeer Vipers are much more powerful because Zerg can produce any number of them at the same time while it is far harder for a Terran to produce a large number of Ravens ... Starports and Tech labs cost a lot of resources to build in the first place. You completely ignore the production capability of Zerg again ...
so like...you still ignore that there is a huge MMMM army besides the BC that just a moves the hydras + viper + corruptor comp you are talking about. obv you have no idea on how hard BC raven laughs at anything that is hydras or corruptors.
the problem right now is: MMMM is too strong but also mech/biomech and the transition away from bio is too weak. if you reach BC/raven its strong once again. thats why i said force T to transition (by buffing Z vs bio/mine) but also buff the transition (cheaper armory, raven free energy upgrade, faster BC buildtime).
On August 22 2013 22:47 Rabiator wrote: ... @RabidDeer Vipers are much more powerful because Zerg can produce any number of them at the same time while it is far harder for a Terran to produce a large number of Ravens ... Starports and Tech labs cost a lot of resources to build in the first place. You completely ignore the production capability of Zerg again ...
Thats wrong. Zergs are so much limited by gas, that any viper that you build is a huge investment. Terrans have about unlimited amounts of gas if they want start the raven production. The only thing a terran needs is an extra starport + addon and then can build ravens permanently at the costs of 2 marines each while producing bio+mine. If zergs build some vipers they better have some use or it instantly can lose you the game. Zergs produce vipers at the converted cost of about 10 marines each.
I expect the raven in its current state to be heavily overpowered. Hunter seeker missiles just crush everything of zerg in large numbers. It is possible to dodge one or a few of them but once the critical number is reached and HSMs are launched inside army vs army engagements, e.g. when terran attacks a zerg expansion, there is no way to deal with it as a zerg. Combined with some PDD and auto turrets it should be unstoppable in theory. This is going to showcase once terrans have learned to play the ravens the right way (quite defensively, offense only with full army engagements or drops) and more TvZs reach these later stages.
The point is that terrans in endgame e.g. on 5 bases use to use only 6 gases (60%) and still have enaugh gas to produce ravens from at least 1 starport permanently. Once ZvT meta is at a level where it reaches these later stages more oftenly and terrans pick all 10 gases from their 5 bases (because bio/mine is not enaugh enymore to crush everything), this will lead into 2-3 stargate production of ravens easily if not more. Same applies to any mixture of BC/Ravens. Ravens at this point have the effective costs of 2 marines (100 minerals) as gas isnt a scarce resource and there is only opportunity costs for the mineral part of the raven production. There is no better way to spend the gas than for ravens and all of their spells are extremely strong and hard to counter. When terrans stop to win games with bio/mine only and learn to transition into ravens early enaugh, this will have a heavy impact on TvZ. 4-5 Ravens are enaugh to deal significant damage against almost everything the zerg has: Broodlords, corruptors, infestors, ling/bane and roach/hydra all get devastated by several simultaniously launched HSMs without any real chance of microing against it without losing a position of e.g. defending an expansion or attacking the terran. Once 10-15 Ravens are reached terrans can't lose anymore by default when only expanding and defending the new expansion (not risking to lose the ravens to perma fungal far away from where they should be). Ravens are also the perfect addition for lategame kill drops.
I pointed at this issue already weeks and monthes ago in several forums/threads. Wondering when HOTS will reach this level of metagame when ravens are frequently started to be used in the middle stages of the game.
On August 22 2013 22:47 Rabiator wrote: ... @RabidDeer Vipers are much more powerful because Zerg can produce any number of them at the same time while it is far harder for a Terran to produce a large number of Ravens ... Starports and Tech labs cost a lot of resources to build in the first place. You completely ignore the production capability of Zerg again ...
Thats wrong. Zergs are so much limited by gas, that any viper that you build is a huge investment. Terrans have about unlimited amounts of gas if they want start the raven production. The only thing a terran needs is an extra starport + addon and then can build ravens permanently while producing bio+mine. If zergs build some vipers they better have some use or it instantly can lose you the game cause you gonna lack other costy gas units like BL/ultra/infestor/banelings.
I expect the raven in its current state to be heavily overpowered. Hunter seeker missiles just crush everything of zerg in large numbers. It is possible to dodge one or a few of them but once the critical number is reached and HSMs are launched inside army vs army engagements, e.g. when terran attacks a zerg expansion, there is no way to deal with it as a zerg. Combined with some PDD and auto turrets it should be unstoppable in theory. This is going to showcase once terrans have learned to play the ravens the right way (quite defensively, offense only with full army engagements or drops) and more TvZs reach these later stages.
The point is that terrans in endgame e.g. on 5 bases use to use only 6 gases (60%) and still have enaugh gas to produce ravens from at least 1 starport permanently. Once ZvT meta is at a level where it reaches these later stages more oftenly and terrans pick all 10 gases from their 5 bases (because bio/mine is not enaugh enymore to crush everything), this will lead into 2-3 stargate production of ravens easily if not more. Same appliels to any mixture of BC/Ravens. Ravens at this point have the effective costs of 2 marines (100 minerals) as gas isnt a scarce resource and there is only opportunity costs for the mineral part of the raven production. There is no better way to spend the gas than for ravens and all of their spells are extremely strong and hard to counter. When terrans stop to win games with bio/mine only and learn to transition into ravens early enaugh, this will have a heavy impact on TvZ. 4-5 Ravens are enaugh to deal significant damage against almost everything the zerg has: Broodlords, corruptors, infestors, ling/bane and roach/hydra all get devastated by several simultaniously launched HSMs without any real chance of microing against it without losing a position of e.g. defending an expansion or attacking the terran. Ravens are also the perfect addition for lategame instant kill drops.
I pointed at this issue already weeks and monthes ago in several forums/threads. Wondering when HOTS will reach this level of metagame when ravens are frequently started to be used in the middle stages of the game.
I shall claim that HotS meta in it's current version of units will never ever ever reach states of game, when you can actually get critical mass of ravens in top level TvZ. Someone will die before, it's that simple.
its not that simple man. Blizzard will take alot of time but finally they will stop terran to be able to crush zerg with only bio/mine. Right now you are right but I dare to predict this will change for sure.
On August 21 2013 08:54 Deathstar34 wrote: You can buff late game Z all you want but if they cant get to the late game somewhat safely, then the ultra buff is useless. Zerg needs some sort of mid game buff against T to help them out.
This. This is what I've been saying a billion times.
Either a new mid-game unit, or hydras/SH need to be re-worked.
I'd prefer hydra being changed so that they apply 'special toxin' that reduces the regeneration and healing rate by 50%. That way, it won't really affect vs. Protoss or Zerg matchups because regeneration is pitfully slow during battle anyway, and only really hurts the medivac healing rate (which is pretty justified seeing as how 4M just completely demolishes Hydra/Roach if micro'd properly on both sides)
Fantastic idea, this would be a great way to encourage diversity in TvZ and maybe bring more tanks back to the mu
I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but it actually does do perform the two points you mentioned
Raven are bad against lings banelings ultras. since it's the core component of a Z army vs MMMM i see no reason to add raven to the mix until the zerg is clearly transitioning BL. So with the current metagame of ZvT raven is not good.
you seem to completely ignore what I said. The opportunity costs of the first raven for terran is 100+150+50=300mins(?) = 6 marines, as gas doesnt matter. Any more ravens that are being built from then cost the opportunity of 2 marines each. Once it is not worth for terrans to build these 6 extra marines anymore cause they don't support the killing blow bio/mine rally in midgame, terrans will learn to start raven production earlier and see how few opportunity costs they have.
Furthermore it is wrong what you say: Ravens are quite good vs ling/bane and also ultralisks. Ling/bane can get killed in large numbers. It is extremely hard to micro away a few banelings out of a group of 20 when 2-3 HSMs are launched into them. Ultralisks are surrounded by other units and possibly air untis as well. Ravens perfectly support lategame drop play. Autoturrets are as well perfect for defense and offense, if HSMs at all make no sense in a certain case.
For the moment, this patch "supposed to balance TvZ" is just another huge Terran gift : 525 mineral and 525 gaz, and 575 second of research time for free (yeah really Terran need another gaz cost reduction) The Zerg "buff" are pointless like hell compared to the insane Terran Stuff.
TvZ balance is worst than at the beginning of WOL. Infestor is weaker than before his buff at WOL. Nothing new for the zerg before Hive tech. But Terrans have stronger bio/biotank/mech/biomech and even a newbiomine style and i forget the new late skyterran wich is so strong. The only thing which doesn't make TvZ : like 100% Terran favored is the map pool change and a best knowledge of the game. Just go back to the old map and just look how the TvZ is more imbalance than at the beginning of WOL. Zerg have nearly the same tools to deal with an insane terran new stuff. And at least at WOL Zerg have a macro avantage, they don't have it anymore.
The Ultra change seems strange to me. If we look at high level play, the games that zerg are losing are not the games where they have ultras out. They are losing games before they get to that stage. This is because Ultras are already part of the solution to the style. The main problem with the bio-mine Terran style for me is that they get to that composition SO quickly, and once they do they are already at their "end-game" composition (defined as the composition they want to get to and play out the game with, we should also note that we see games of such varying length and Terrans stick with this composition from 10 minutes right up until even 40 minutes if the game goes on that long). This means they can begin trading armies cost efficiently and pressuring and just waiting on upgrades. Terran reach their "end-game" TvZ composition so quickly and just stay there. This seems strange to me. The thing I notice most in high level games is how cost efficient the style is, and seems that Terran can take the best engagements and be ahead when they are on 2 bases and the zerg is on 4. I think much of this is down to the fact the zerg doesnt have a cost efficient way to deal with the widow mine, as we only have 2 units that outrange them (queen and Hydra, excluding swarm host and brood lord). Perhaps a zerg buff that allows for more cost efficiency in engagements?
I am not sure I am keen on making Hive any easier to get to or any cheaper to get to because then it messes with all the timings of "tier 3" units and structures. In terms of the infestor's use, perhaps give fungal the ability to make widow mines not activate during that period? The same way fungal already stops abilities like blink, siegetank and viking transformation, and zerg units burrowing.
Lots of people dislike the idea of adding the upgrades to the infestation pit because of how fast the 3-3 comes. You could always make it so infestation pit allows the upgrades, but then make the upgrades longer research time until whatever you feel is balanced enough. So if you added 30 seconds onto the upgrade time for 3-3 then you are still cutting them 30 seconds out of the 100 it takes the build a hive, so the upgrades still come over a minute quicker. I think this is maybe a better route to take if you believe that zerg upgrades are what are causing problems for the zerg. I think people forget the amount of variations that Blizzard can tweak things, they have so much control.
Because of the balance in TvP at the moment, I think the answer needed here is definitely in buffing zerg rather than nerfing terran, but i'm not sure the best way to go about it.
As many allready pointed out, the transition to ultras are the hard part. Ultras without upgrades are bad, and its a big investment to get to +3+3 and ultras. Right now it feels like zerg need to get to upgraded ultras to not just simply die when the terran gets +3+3 while the only thing the terran player really need to do to adapt to the lategame is to add a few rax with techlabs for marauders. I think zerg needs a little stronger midgame army options to make the transition not such a gamble. I think that buffing hydra damage vs bio wouldn't be a bad thing to try. Not by a huge amount but a little. Right now a hydra has the same dps and almost the same hp as 2 marines. (2 food for a hydra and 2 food for 2 marines) where the marines benefit more from their upgrades and support units and also cost 25gas less / suply. Right now the same suply hydra vs marine is slighty in the marines favor wich i think is a little odd, when you think about the fact that hydras are a higher tier and more expensive unit that have the same role as the marine. I think it whould be interesting for the matchup to give hydras a small (not a blizzard style 100%) dps boost vs bio. (could be nested to the hydra range upgrade?) One of the benefits with this is that it would not change anything vs mech and hardly anything vs protoss. Zealots and templars would be the only units effected and I honestly dont think it would have to much of an impact. I would have liked this change over the spore buff for zvz too...
On August 23 2013 05:41 Salomonster wrote: As many allready pointed out, the transition to ultras are the hard part. Ultras without upgrades are bad, and its a big investment to get to +3+3 and ultras. Right now it feels like zerg need to get to upgraded ultras to not just simply die when the terran gets +3+3 while the only thing the terran player really need to do to adapt to the lategame is to add a few rax with techlabs for marauders. I think zerg needs a little stronger midgame army options to make the transition not such a gamble. I think that buffing hydra damage vs bio wouldn't be a bad thing to try. Not by a huge amount but a little. Right now a hydra has the same dps and almost the same hp as 2 marines. (2 food for a hydra and 2 food for 2 marines) where the marines benefit more from their upgrades and support units and also cost 25gas less / suply. Right now the same suply hydra vs marine is slighty in the marines favor wich i think is a little odd, when you think about the fact that hydras are a higher tier and more expensive unit that have the same role as the marine. I think it whould be interesting for the matchup to give hydras a small (not a blizzard style 100%) dps boost vs bio. (could be nested to the hydra range upgrade?) One of the benefits with this is that it would not change anything vs mech and hardly anything vs protoss. Zealots and templars would be the only units effected and I honestly dont think it would have to much of an impact. I would have liked this change over the spore buff for zvz too...
you have to keep in mind marines are supposed to soft counter hydralisks because siege tanks do worse against hydras than they do against anything else and marauders are awful against hydralisks and widow mines get outranged by hydralisks
if hydras went toe to toe or even swing-favor to hydralisk just a little bit over marines i think that would become a major problem
there are a good amount of progamers out there that are doing roach hydralisk and its actually better than it sounds
just replacing mutalisk with hydralisks in your mutalingbane composition makes a lot of sense because in the current meta you dont really have any room to mutalisk harass anyway since terran is constantly attacking you. ofcourse this army composition and playstyle is heavily underused and not even considered in most cases. but from my practice ive had i can tell you i have a lot more trouble dealing with hydra ling bane than muta ling bane
On August 23 2013 06:40 Grumbels wrote: How about the following:
Chitinous Plating upgrade removed. Ultralisks start with an additional +2 armor baseline.
You pretty much need the upgrade anyway, it just adds time to the transition window before ultralisks can be useful.
I consider this less drastic than the +50hp buff.
That would be a plain buff to ultras and would not help against wm in the slightest (as their damage is spellcaster so ignores armor). I think what suppy was saying a few days ago about being able to tech to hive from spire would be an interesting change to consider because it would allow zergs to be a bit more flexible with their tech path
You don't build widow mines in isolation. My suggested change is a buff to the ultralisk vs bio-mine styles.
On August 23 2013 05:41 Salomonster wrote: As many allready pointed out, the transition to ultras are the hard part. Ultras without upgrades are bad, and its a big investment to get to +3+3 and ultras. Right now it feels like zerg need to get to upgraded ultras to not just simply die when the terran gets +3+3 while the only thing the terran player really need to do to adapt to the lategame is to add a few rax with techlabs for marauders. I think zerg needs a little stronger midgame army options to make the transition not such a gamble. I think that buffing hydra damage vs bio wouldn't be a bad thing to try. Not by a huge amount but a little. Right now a hydra has the same dps and almost the same hp as 2 marines. (2 food for a hydra and 2 food for 2 marines) where the marines benefit more from their upgrades and support units and also cost 25gas less / suply. Right now the same suply hydra vs marine is slighty in the marines favor wich i think is a little odd, when you think about the fact that hydras are a higher tier and more expensive unit that have the same role as the marine. I think it whould be interesting for the matchup to give hydras a small (not a blizzard style 100%) dps boost vs bio. (could be nested to the hydra range upgrade?) One of the benefits with this is that it would not change anything vs mech and hardly anything vs protoss. Zealots and templars would be the only units effected and I honestly dont think it would have to much of an impact. I would have liked this change over the spore buff for zvz too...
you have to keep in mind marines are supposed to soft counter hydralisks because siege tanks do worse against hydras than they do against anything else and marauders are awful against hydralisks and widow mines get outranged by hydralisks
if hydras went toe to toe or even swing-favor to hydralisk just a little bit over marines i think that would become a major problem
there are a good amount of progamers out there that are doing roach hydralisk and its actually better than it sounds
just replacing mutalisk with hydralisks in your mutalingbane composition makes a lot of sense because in the current meta you dont really have any room to mutalisk harass anyway since terran is constantly attacking you. ofcourse this army composition and playstyle is heavily underused and not even considered in most cases. but from my practice ive had i can tell you i have a lot more trouble dealing with hydra ling bane than muta ling bane
Sup Morrow.
Mutalisks are more than just for harassing, though. They're essentially the best way to deal with the dreaded Terran Drop Harass that Terran have always relied on. If you go Hydras, how to do you compensate for the reduced ability to deal with drops?
On August 23 2013 05:41 Salomonster wrote: As many allready pointed out, the transition to ultras are the hard part. Ultras without upgrades are bad, and its a big investment to get to +3+3 and ultras. Right now it feels like zerg need to get to upgraded ultras to not just simply die when the terran gets +3+3 while the only thing the terran player really need to do to adapt to the lategame is to add a few rax with techlabs for marauders. I think zerg needs a little stronger midgame army options to make the transition not such a gamble. I think that buffing hydra damage vs bio wouldn't be a bad thing to try. Not by a huge amount but a little. Right now a hydra has the same dps and almost the same hp as 2 marines. (2 food for a hydra and 2 food for 2 marines) where the marines benefit more from their upgrades and support units and also cost 25gas less / suply. Right now the same suply hydra vs marine is slighty in the marines favor wich i think is a little odd, when you think about the fact that hydras are a higher tier and more expensive unit that have the same role as the marine. I think it whould be interesting for the matchup to give hydras a small (not a blizzard style 100%) dps boost vs bio. (could be nested to the hydra range upgrade?) One of the benefits with this is that it would not change anything vs mech and hardly anything vs protoss. Zealots and templars would be the only units effected and I honestly dont think it would have to much of an impact. I would have liked this change over the spore buff for zvz too...
you have to keep in mind marines are supposed to soft counter hydralisks because siege tanks do worse against hydras than they do against anything else and marauders are awful against hydralisks and widow mines get outranged by hydralisks
if hydras went toe to toe or even swing-favor to hydralisk just a little bit over marines i think that would become a major problem
there are a good amount of progamers out there that are doing roach hydralisk and its actually better than it sounds
just replacing mutalisk with hydralisks in your mutalingbane composition makes a lot of sense because in the current meta you dont really have any room to mutalisk harass anyway since terran is constantly attacking you. ofcourse this army composition and playstyle is heavily underused and not even considered in most cases. but from my practice ive had i can tell you i have a lot more trouble dealing with hydra ling bane than muta ling bane
Sup Morrow.
Mutalisks are more than just for harassing, though. They're essentially the best way to deal with the dreaded Terran Drop Harass that Terran have always relied on. If you go Hydras, how to do you compensate for the reduced ability to deal with drops?
Couldn't you technically just get 8-12 mutas like you would in Broodwar then switch into Hydras from there? I've never understood zergs in ZvT who go up to like 30 mutas, they die to marines anyway due to slower upgrades most of the time.
On August 23 2013 05:41 Salomonster wrote: As many allready pointed out, the transition to ultras are the hard part. Ultras without upgrades are bad, and its a big investment to get to +3+3 and ultras. Right now it feels like zerg need to get to upgraded ultras to not just simply die when the terran gets +3+3 while the only thing the terran player really need to do to adapt to the lategame is to add a few rax with techlabs for marauders. I think zerg needs a little stronger midgame army options to make the transition not such a gamble. I think that buffing hydra damage vs bio wouldn't be a bad thing to try. Not by a huge amount but a little. Right now a hydra has the same dps and almost the same hp as 2 marines. (2 food for a hydra and 2 food for 2 marines) where the marines benefit more from their upgrades and support units and also cost 25gas less / suply. Right now the same suply hydra vs marine is slighty in the marines favor wich i think is a little odd, when you think about the fact that hydras are a higher tier and more expensive unit that have the same role as the marine. I think it whould be interesting for the matchup to give hydras a small (not a blizzard style 100%) dps boost vs bio. (could be nested to the hydra range upgrade?) One of the benefits with this is that it would not change anything vs mech and hardly anything vs protoss. Zealots and templars would be the only units effected and I honestly dont think it would have to much of an impact. I would have liked this change over the spore buff for zvz too...
you have to keep in mind marines are supposed to soft counter hydralisks because siege tanks do worse against hydras than they do against anything else and marauders are awful against hydralisks and widow mines get outranged by hydralisks
if hydras went toe to toe or even swing-favor to hydralisk just a little bit over marines i think that would become a major problem
there are a good amount of progamers out there that are doing roach hydralisk and its actually better than it sounds
just replacing mutalisk with hydralisks in your mutalingbane composition makes a lot of sense because in the current meta you dont really have any room to mutalisk harass anyway since terran is constantly attacking you. ofcourse this army composition and playstyle is heavily underused and not even considered in most cases. but from my practice ive had i can tell you i have a lot more trouble dealing with hydra ling bane than muta ling bane
Sup Morrow.
Mutalisks are more than just for harassing, though. They're essentially the best way to deal with the dreaded Terran Drop Harass that Terran have always relied on. If you go Hydras, how to do you compensate for the reduced ability to deal with drops?
Couldn't you technically just get 8-12 mutas like you would in Broodwar then switch into Hydras from there? I've never understood zergs in ZvT who go up to like 30 mutas, they die to marines anyway due to slower upgrades most of the time.
SC2 doesn't have Lurkers, and Swarm Hosts are no substitute.
The problem there is, again, everything that's Lair Tech Zerg still dies to 3/3 4m.
So not only do you have to get a Spire, 8-12 Mutas, a Hydralisk Den, AND add a Hydra force to your composition to survive against Terran, but once they hit 3/3 then you also eventually have to go Hive tech and then 3/3 as well? As a Terran Player, even I think that's asking a bit too much from Zerg.
Which is why I think 3/3 is best moved down one level to Infestation Pit tech instead of Hive Tech.
On August 23 2013 05:41 Salomonster wrote: As many allready pointed out, the transition to ultras are the hard part. Ultras without upgrades are bad, and its a big investment to get to +3+3 and ultras. Right now it feels like zerg need to get to upgraded ultras to not just simply die when the terran gets +3+3 while the only thing the terran player really need to do to adapt to the lategame is to add a few rax with techlabs for marauders. I think zerg needs a little stronger midgame army options to make the transition not such a gamble. I think that buffing hydra damage vs bio wouldn't be a bad thing to try. Not by a huge amount but a little. Right now a hydra has the same dps and almost the same hp as 2 marines. (2 food for a hydra and 2 food for 2 marines) where the marines benefit more from their upgrades and support units and also cost 25gas less / suply. Right now the same suply hydra vs marine is slighty in the marines favor wich i think is a little odd, when you think about the fact that hydras are a higher tier and more expensive unit that have the same role as the marine. I think it whould be interesting for the matchup to give hydras a small (not a blizzard style 100%) dps boost vs bio. (could be nested to the hydra range upgrade?) One of the benefits with this is that it would not change anything vs mech and hardly anything vs protoss. Zealots and templars would be the only units effected and I honestly dont think it would have to much of an impact. I would have liked this change over the spore buff for zvz too...
you have to keep in mind marines are supposed to soft counter hydralisks because siege tanks do worse against hydras than they do against anything else and marauders are awful against hydralisks and widow mines get outranged by hydralisks
if hydras went toe to toe or even swing-favor to hydralisk just a little bit over marines i think that would become a major problem
there are a good amount of progamers out there that are doing roach hydralisk and its actually better than it sounds
just replacing mutalisk with hydralisks in your mutalingbane composition makes a lot of sense because in the current meta you dont really have any room to mutalisk harass anyway since terran is constantly attacking you. ofcourse this army composition and playstyle is heavily underused and not even considered in most cases. but from my practice ive had i can tell you i have a lot more trouble dealing with hydra ling bane than muta ling bane
Sup Morrow.
Mutalisks are more than just for harassing, though. They're essentially the best way to deal with the dreaded Terran Drop Harass that Terran have always relied on. If you go Hydras, how to do you compensate for the reduced ability to deal with drops?
Couldn't you technically just get 8-12 mutas like you would in Broodwar then switch into Hydras from there? I've never understood zergs in ZvT who go up to like 30 mutas, they die to marines anyway due to slower upgrades most of the time.
SC2 doesn't have Lurkers, and Swarm Hosts are no substitute.
The problem there is, again, everything that's Lair Tech Zerg still dies to 3/3 4m.
So not only do you have to get a Spire, 8-12 Mutas, a Hydralisk Den, AND add a Hydra force to your composition to survive against Terran, but once they hit 3/3 then you also eventually have to go Hive tech and then 3/3 as well? As a Terran Player, even I think that's asking a bit too much from Zerg.
Which is why I think 3/3 is best moved down one level to Infestation Pit tech instead of Hive Tech.
Or, in addition to Pit unlocking Hive, just make Spire unlock Hive as well.
On August 23 2013 05:41 Salomonster wrote: As many allready pointed out, the transition to ultras are the hard part. Ultras without upgrades are bad, and its a big investment to get to +3+3 and ultras. Right now it feels like zerg need to get to upgraded ultras to not just simply die when the terran gets +3+3 while the only thing the terran player really need to do to adapt to the lategame is to add a few rax with techlabs for marauders. I think zerg needs a little stronger midgame army options to make the transition not such a gamble. I think that buffing hydra damage vs bio wouldn't be a bad thing to try. Not by a huge amount but a little. Right now a hydra has the same dps and almost the same hp as 2 marines. (2 food for a hydra and 2 food for 2 marines) where the marines benefit more from their upgrades and support units and also cost 25gas less / suply. Right now the same suply hydra vs marine is slighty in the marines favor wich i think is a little odd, when you think about the fact that hydras are a higher tier and more expensive unit that have the same role as the marine. I think it whould be interesting for the matchup to give hydras a small (not a blizzard style 100%) dps boost vs bio. (could be nested to the hydra range upgrade?) One of the benefits with this is that it would not change anything vs mech and hardly anything vs protoss. Zealots and templars would be the only units effected and I honestly dont think it would have to much of an impact. I would have liked this change over the spore buff for zvz too...
you have to keep in mind marines are supposed to soft counter hydralisks because siege tanks do worse against hydras than they do against anything else and marauders are awful against hydralisks and widow mines get outranged by hydralisks
if hydras went toe to toe or even swing-favor to hydralisk just a little bit over marines i think that would become a major problem
there are a good amount of progamers out there that are doing roach hydralisk and its actually better than it sounds
just replacing mutalisk with hydralisks in your mutalingbane composition makes a lot of sense because in the current meta you dont really have any room to mutalisk harass anyway since terran is constantly attacking you. ofcourse this army composition and playstyle is heavily underused and not even considered in most cases. but from my practice ive had i can tell you i have a lot more trouble dealing with hydra ling bane than muta ling bane
Sup Morrow.
Mutalisks are more than just for harassing, though. They're essentially the best way to deal with the dreaded Terran Drop Harass that Terran have always relied on. If you go Hydras, how to do you compensate for the reduced ability to deal with drops?
Couldn't you technically just get 8-12 mutas like you would in Broodwar then switch into Hydras from there? I've never understood zergs in ZvT who go up to like 30 mutas, they die to marines anyway due to slower upgrades most of the time.
SC2 doesn't have Lurkers, and Swarm Hosts are no substitute.
The problem there is, again, everything that's Lair Tech Zerg still dies to 3/3 4m.
So not only do you have to get a Spire, 8-12 Mutas, a Hydralisk Den, AND add a Hydra force to your composition to survive against Terran, but once they hit 3/3 then you also eventually have to go Hive tech and then 3/3 as well? As a Terran Player, even I think that's asking a bit too much from Zerg.
Which is why I think 3/3 is best moved down one level to Infestation Pit tech instead of Hive Tech.
Or, in addition to Pit unlocking Hive, just make Spire unlock Hive as well.
Don't lump that idea with my post, I'm very much against it.
First of all, no other tech tree allows for multiple routes like that. It goes against the fundamental tech tree mechanics of the game.
Secondly, Spire also unlocking Hive Tech would make the transition to Hive a bit too easy. Hive unlocks a lot more than 3/3, but also Ultras, Vipers, Adrenal Glands, Greater Spire/Brood Lords, etc. Mutas are already considered to be the best Lair tech unit in ZvT and ZvZ (Swarm Hosts in ZvP).
Getting to 3/3 for all races in SC2 should involve getting a building that's a bit out-of-the way from the standard composition.
Terran Bio doesn't normally get an Armory except for 2/2 and 3/3.
Protoss usually go Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes, or Roach defense (i.e. it's considered non-standard to go Twilight straight after Cyber Core, unless you're going for a Blink timing)
Mutas are the standard and probably the most-used Lair Tech route in ZvT and ZvZ.
We saw the effects of making the transition too easy had on WoL. It was never NOT a good idea to get an Infestation Pit since Fungal Growth was OP in WoL. Zergs got Infestors every game that wasn't finished off early. So if you're going to get Infestors anyway, Hive was just way too easy to get. We can already see some of the effects of making the best ZvP Lair Tech unit, the Swarm Host, at Infestation Pit tech. Protoss have a tough time breaking defensive Swarm Hosts, and it serves as a good transition to Hive as a bonus. And Mutas are still good in ZvP. Protoss would then go "wait, Zergs can go Muta OR Swarm Host and still get Hive either way? Those require two completely different tech compositions to fight". (Archon/Storm for mutas, Collosus/Observer for Swarm Hosts)
With Infestors in their nerfed state, it's good to require an Infestation Pit before Hive. The problem right now is that Zergs do need 3/3 Ground to compete with 3/3 4M. My suggestion ONLY changes the 3/3 timing for Zerg, and seems to be the smallest change one could do and it might be enough to let Zergs survive getting to Hive tech. Getting 3/3 would make it so that Zergs could remain more safe at Lair Tech and the transition to Hive Tech easier. Just by enough.
Start with just changing the 3/3 timing. If that's not enough, THEN we can start considering options that go against the fundamental tech tree mechanics of the game, such as Spire also unlocking Hive in addition to Infestation Pit already unlocking it.
I prefer a incremental approach to balance. Blizzard did a good job incrementally nerfing the Hellbat by just enough. It should go about buffing zergs incrementally as well.
On August 23 2013 05:41 Salomonster wrote: As many allready pointed out, the transition to ultras are the hard part. Ultras without upgrades are bad, and its a big investment to get to +3+3 and ultras. Right now it feels like zerg need to get to upgraded ultras to not just simply die when the terran gets +3+3 while the only thing the terran player really need to do to adapt to the lategame is to add a few rax with techlabs for marauders. I think zerg needs a little stronger midgame army options to make the transition not such a gamble. I think that buffing hydra damage vs bio wouldn't be a bad thing to try. Not by a huge amount but a little. Right now a hydra has the same dps and almost the same hp as 2 marines. (2 food for a hydra and 2 food for 2 marines) where the marines benefit more from their upgrades and support units and also cost 25gas less / suply. Right now the same suply hydra vs marine is slighty in the marines favor wich i think is a little odd, when you think about the fact that hydras are a higher tier and more expensive unit that have the same role as the marine. I think it whould be interesting for the matchup to give hydras a small (not a blizzard style 100%) dps boost vs bio. (could be nested to the hydra range upgrade?) One of the benefits with this is that it would not change anything vs mech and hardly anything vs protoss. Zealots and templars would be the only units effected and I honestly dont think it would have to much of an impact. I would have liked this change over the spore buff for zvz too...
you have to keep in mind marines are supposed to soft counter hydralisks because siege tanks do worse against hydras than they do against anything else and marauders are awful against hydralisks and widow mines get outranged by hydralisks
if hydras went toe to toe or even swing-favor to hydralisk just a little bit over marines i think that would become a major problem
there are a good amount of progamers out there that are doing roach hydralisk and its actually better than it sounds
just replacing mutalisk with hydralisks in your mutalingbane composition makes a lot of sense because in the current meta you dont really have any room to mutalisk harass anyway since terran is constantly attacking you. ofcourse this army composition and playstyle is heavily underused and not even considered in most cases. but from my practice ive had i can tell you i have a lot more trouble dealing with hydra ling bane than muta ling bane
Sup Morrow.
Mutalisks are more than just for harassing, though. They're essentially the best way to deal with the dreaded Terran Drop Harass that Terran have always relied on. If you go Hydras, how to do you compensate for the reduced ability to deal with drops?
Couldn't you technically just get 8-12 mutas like you would in Broodwar then switch into Hydras from there? I've never understood zergs in ZvT who go up to like 30 mutas, they die to marines anyway due to slower upgrades most of the time.
SC2 doesn't have Lurkers, and Swarm Hosts are no substitute.
The problem there is, again, everything that's Lair Tech Zerg still dies to 3/3 4m.
So not only do you have to get a Spire, 8-12 Mutas, a Hydralisk Den, AND add a Hydra force to your composition to survive against Terran, but once they hit 3/3 then you also eventually have to go Hive tech and then 3/3 as well? As a Terran Player, even I think that's asking a bit too much from Zerg.
Which is why I think 3/3 is best moved down one level to Infestation Pit tech instead of Hive Tech.
Or, in addition to Pit unlocking Hive, just make Spire unlock Hive as well.
Don't lump that idea with my post, I'm very much against it.
First of all, no other tech tree allows for multiple routes like that. It goes against the fundamental tech tree mechanics of the game.
Secondly, Spire also unlocking Hive Tech would make the transition to Hive a bit too easy. Hive unlocks a lot more than 3/3, but also Ultras, Vipers, Adrenal Glands, Greater Spire/Brood Lords, etc. Mutas are already considered to be the best Lair tech unit in ZvT and ZvZ (Swarm Hosts in ZvP).
Getting to 3/3 for all races in SC2 should involve getting a building that's a bit out-of-the way from the standard composition.
Terran Bio doesn't normally get an Armory except for 3/3.
Protoss usually go Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes, or Roach defense (i.e. it's considered non-standard to go Twilight straight after Cyber Core, unless you're going for a Blink timing)
Mutas are the standard and probably the most-used Lair Tech route in all 3 matchups.
We saw the effects of making the transition too easy had on WoL. It was never NOT a good idea to get an Infestation Pit since Fungal Growth was OP in WoL. Zergs got Infestors every game that wasn't finished off early. So if you're going to get Infestors anyway, Hive was just way too easy to get. We can already see some of the effects of making the best ZvP Lair Tech unit, the Swarm Host, at Infestation Pit tech. Protoss have a tough time breaking defensive Swarm Hosts, and it serves as a good transition to Hive as a bonus.
With Infestors in their nerfed state, it's good to require an Infestation Pit before Hive. The problem right now is that Zergs do need 3/3 Ground to compete with 3/3 4M. My suggestion ONLY changes the 3/3 timing for Zerg, and seems to be the smallest change one could do and it might be enough to let Zergs survive getting to Hive tech. Getting 3/3 would make it so that Zergs could remain more safe at Lair Tech and the transition to Hive Tech easier. Just by enough.
Start with just changing the 3/3 timing, and then if that's not enough, THEN we can start considering options that go against the fundamental tech tree mechanics of the game, such as Spire also unlocking Hive in addition to Infestation Pit already unlocking it.
It's the smallest possible change (dubious) to achieve the most effect in the current metagame.
Blizzard does not revert changes they make, if you place the final upgrades at lair tech they are going to stay there and we will have to live with it for the rest of our days.
There have been long stretches of time where mutaling was the dominant zerg strategy in at least some of the match-ups. Your suggested change would have been seen as fundamentally unsound in that era, but now that zerg has slight issues with the transition seemingly all of the community is behind a drastic change like this. What is going to happen once the metagame changes?
There are many minor zerg buffs that Blizzard could make which could fix the problem without setting themselves up for problems further down the road. You could lower the cost of the infestation pit, allow players to also tech to hive from the spire, reduce the cost of the hive, buff contaminate, make terran upgrades slightly more expensive, make widow mines build slower, make chitinous plating default for ultralisks etc.
Furthermore it's just incredibly ugly to have the 3/3/ upgrades no longer tied to the 3/3 building.
I think we need a simple and straight forward solution to the Lair-Hive transition problem. Why not just lower the cost for researching hive from 200/150 to 150/100 and lower the morph time from 100 seconds to like 80? Wouldn't that be the most direct way of easing the transition; by making it quicker and cheaper?
On August 23 2013 09:58 TheRabidDeer wrote: If the lair-hive transition is smoothed out I would also love to see some ideas to help terran transition out of 4m
I can't say that I object to this, it probably would be something reminiscent of in BW when terran lifted all there raxes and started putting down factories and transitioning to late game mech. The question is how to make it viable without getting steamrolled by zerg hive tech,
Edit: Maybe increasing the damage siege tanks receive through armory upgrades?
On August 23 2013 10:16 Grumbels wrote: have ghosts be viable as a transition
Ghosts are anti-spell casters and Zerg doesn't use many spellcasters in lategame anymore, as they are no longer the core of the army. You can probably make a couple of Ghosts for those 4-5 Infestors, but that's about it. Or those 2-3 Vipers.
On August 23 2013 10:16 Grumbels wrote: have ghosts be viable as a transition
Ghosts are anti-spell casters and Zerg doesn't use many spellcasters in lategame anymore, as they are no longer the core of the army. You can probably make a couple of Ghosts for those 4-5 Infestors, but that's about it. Or those 2-3 Vipers.
No one wants to see Brood Lord mass Snipe again.
maybe we can make ghost snipe unuable to massive!!! :p
oh well, I rather want another unit from g acedemy in Lotv something like ghost for protoss, X for zerg. :D
On August 23 2013 10:16 Grumbels wrote: have ghosts be viable as a transition
Ghosts are great in the lategame for nukes, I already touched on this a bit. 2 nukes kills any tech structure a zerg has. Can also snipe queens and ruin production. They just arent good in large numbers.
On August 23 2013 10:16 Grumbels wrote: have ghosts be viable as a transition
Ghosts are anti-spell casters and Zerg doesn't use many spellcasters in lategame anymore, as they are no longer the core of the army. You can probably make a couple of Ghosts for those 4-5 Infestors, but that's about it. Or those 2-3 Vipers.
No one wants to see Brood Lord mass Snipe again.
I think it would be nice for a reworked snipe to have an anti-massive utility. I had an earlier suggestion to give snipe a 0.5s stun effect, but nobody seemed to like that. *shrug*
On August 23 2013 10:16 Grumbels wrote: have ghosts be viable as a transition
Ghosts are anti-spell casters and Zerg doesn't use many spellcasters in lategame anymore, as they are no longer the core of the army. You can probably make a couple of Ghosts for those 4-5 Infestors, but that's about it. Or those 2-3 Vipers.
No one wants to see Brood Lord mass Snipe again.
On the other hand, the snipe nerf makes the ability too useless against everything else. It should've been 45 normal damage and a penalty on massive.
On August 23 2013 10:16 Grumbels wrote: have ghosts be viable as a transition
Ghosts are anti-spell casters and Zerg doesn't use many spellcasters in lategame anymore, as they are no longer the core of the army. You can probably make a couple of Ghosts for those 4-5 Infestors, but that's about it. Or those 2-3 Vipers.
No one wants to see Brood Lord mass Snipe again.
On the other hand, the snipe nerf makes the ability too useless against everything else. It should've been 45 normal damage and a penalty on massive.
I agree, but Blizzard doesn't seem to like minuses. Maybe make it 25 + (20 versus Light and Psionic).
On August 23 2013 10:16 Grumbels wrote: have ghosts be viable as a transition
Ghosts are anti-spell casters and Zerg doesn't use many spellcasters in lategame anymore, as they are no longer the core of the army. You can probably make a couple of Ghosts for those 4-5 Infestors, but that's about it. Or those 2-3 Vipers.
No one wants to see Brood Lord mass Snipe again.
On the other hand, the snipe nerf makes the ability too useless against everything else. It should've been 45 normal damage and a penalty on massive.
I agree, but Blizzard doesn't seem to like minuses. Maybe make it 25 + (20 versus Light and Psionic).
25 and +25 to non-Massive was QXC's suggestion.
The problem with that would be that they'd still be way too good against Corruptors. I don't think that they should do 50 to Corruptors. But then the damage specifications get too confusing if you lump Corruptors with the ones that don't take 50. And if they just made Corruptors massive, then we run into problems in ZvZ where Corruptors do massive damage to other Corruptors.
On August 23 2013 05:41 Salomonster wrote: As many allready pointed out, the transition to ultras are the hard part. Ultras without upgrades are bad, and its a big investment to get to +3+3 and ultras. Right now it feels like zerg need to get to upgraded ultras to not just simply die when the terran gets +3+3 while the only thing the terran player really need to do to adapt to the lategame is to add a few rax with techlabs for marauders. I think zerg needs a little stronger midgame army options to make the transition not such a gamble. I think that buffing hydra damage vs bio wouldn't be a bad thing to try. Not by a huge amount but a little. Right now a hydra has the same dps and almost the same hp as 2 marines. (2 food for a hydra and 2 food for 2 marines) where the marines benefit more from their upgrades and support units and also cost 25gas less / suply. Right now the same suply hydra vs marine is slighty in the marines favor wich i think is a little odd, when you think about the fact that hydras are a higher tier and more expensive unit that have the same role as the marine. I think it whould be interesting for the matchup to give hydras a small (not a blizzard style 100%) dps boost vs bio. (could be nested to the hydra range upgrade?) One of the benefits with this is that it would not change anything vs mech and hardly anything vs protoss. Zealots and templars would be the only units effected and I honestly dont think it would have to much of an impact. I would have liked this change over the spore buff for zvz too...
you have to keep in mind marines are supposed to soft counter hydralisks because siege tanks do worse against hydras than they do against anything else and marauders are awful against hydralisks and widow mines get outranged by hydralisks
if hydras went toe to toe or even swing-favor to hydralisk just a little bit over marines i think that would become a major problem
there are a good amount of progamers out there that are doing roach hydralisk and its actually better than it sounds
just replacing mutalisk with hydralisks in your mutalingbane composition makes a lot of sense because in the current meta you dont really have any room to mutalisk harass anyway since terran is constantly attacking you. ofcourse this army composition and playstyle is heavily underused and not even considered in most cases. but from my practice ive had i can tell you i have a lot more trouble dealing with hydra ling bane than muta ling bane
Sup Morrow.
Mutalisks are more than just for harassing, though. They're essentially the best way to deal with the dreaded Terran Drop Harass that Terran have always relied on. If you go Hydras, how to do you compensate for the reduced ability to deal with drops?
Couldn't you technically just get 8-12 mutas like you would in Broodwar then switch into Hydras from there? I've never understood zergs in ZvT who go up to like 30 mutas, they die to marines anyway due to slower upgrades most of the time.
SC2 doesn't have Lurkers, and Swarm Hosts are no substitute.
The problem there is, again, everything that's Lair Tech Zerg still dies to 3/3 4m.
So not only do you have to get a Spire, 8-12 Mutas, a Hydralisk Den, AND add a Hydra force to your composition to survive against Terran, but once they hit 3/3 then you also eventually have to go Hive tech and then 3/3 as well? As a Terran Player, even I think that's asking a bit too much from Zerg.
Which is why I think 3/3 is best moved down one level to Infestation Pit tech instead of Hive Tech.
Or, in addition to Pit unlocking Hive, just make Spire unlock Hive as well.
Don't lump that idea with my post, I'm very much against it.
First of all, no other tech tree allows for multiple routes like that. It goes against the fundamental tech tree mechanics of the game.
Secondly, Spire also unlocking Hive Tech would make the transition to Hive a bit too easy. Hive unlocks a lot more than 3/3, but also Ultras, Vipers, Adrenal Glands, Greater Spire/Brood Lords, etc. Mutas are already considered to be the best Lair tech unit in ZvT and ZvZ (Swarm Hosts in ZvP).
Getting to 3/3 for all races in SC2 should involve getting a building that's a bit out-of-the way from the standard composition.
Terran Bio doesn't normally get an Armory except for 3/3.
Protoss usually go Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes, or Roach defense (i.e. it's considered non-standard to go Twilight straight after Cyber Core, unless you're going for a Blink timing)
Mutas are the standard and probably the most-used Lair Tech route in all 3 matchups.
We saw the effects of making the transition too easy had on WoL. It was never NOT a good idea to get an Infestation Pit since Fungal Growth was OP in WoL. Zergs got Infestors every game that wasn't finished off early. So if you're going to get Infestors anyway, Hive was just way too easy to get. We can already see some of the effects of making the best ZvP Lair Tech unit, the Swarm Host, at Infestation Pit tech. Protoss have a tough time breaking defensive Swarm Hosts, and it serves as a good transition to Hive as a bonus.
With Infestors in their nerfed state, it's good to require an Infestation Pit before Hive. The problem right now is that Zergs do need 3/3 Ground to compete with 3/3 4M. My suggestion ONLY changes the 3/3 timing for Zerg, and seems to be the smallest change one could do and it might be enough to let Zergs survive getting to Hive tech. Getting 3/3 would make it so that Zergs could remain more safe at Lair Tech and the transition to Hive Tech easier. Just by enough.
Start with just changing the 3/3 timing, and then if that's not enough, THEN we can start considering options that go against the fundamental tech tree mechanics of the game, such as Spire also unlocking Hive in addition to Infestation Pit already unlocking it.
It's the smallest possible change (dubious) to achieve the most effect in the current metagame.
Blizzard does not revert changes they make, if you place the final upgrades at lair tech they are going to stay there and we will have to live with it for the rest of our days.
There have been long stretches of time where mutaling was the dominant zerg strategy in at least some of the match-ups. Your suggested change would have been seen as fundamentally unsound in that era, but now that zerg has slight issues with the transition seemingly all of the community is behind a drastic change like this. What is going to happen once the metagame changes?
There are many minor zerg buffs that Blizzard could make which could fix the problem without setting themselves up for problems further down the road. You could lower the cost of the infestation pit, allow players to also tech to hive from the spire, reduce the cost of the hive, buff contaminate, make terran upgrades slightly more expensive, make widow mines build slower, make chitinous plating default for ultralisks etc.
Furthermore it's just incredibly ugly to have the 3/3/ upgrades no longer tied to the 3/3 building.
bio with medivac support already shreds hydras (like in its not even close so a small buff wont change that) + while hydras outrange mines, if you go ling bane hydra you either have to keep hydras up front and fight bio = you lose the fight or you send in small groups of ling bane like right now with ling bane muta...but if you do that going muta for harrass, defending drops and killing medivacs is way better.
another thing you guys dont seem to see: you would need tripple evo which would make getting 3 3 3 even more impossible.
--> without a buff to hydras, ling bane hydra is definetly not a viable strat (except maybe on very small maps but roach hydra is way better there: meat shield roaches for hydras + only 2 evos needed).
btw tanks 3 shot hydras like roaches, with +3 they 2 shot them no matter hydras upgrades.
On August 23 2013 06:40 Grumbels wrote: How about the following:
Chitinous Plating upgrade removed. Ultralisks start with an additional +2 armor baseline.
You pretty much need the upgrade anyway, it just adds time to the transition window before ultralisks can be useful.
I consider this less drastic than the +50hp buff.
+50 HP or CP have a similar impact on a single Ultra. IF CP was removed you would have one more Ultra out most of the time and the transition would be a little bit smother. 550 HP Ultras will be considerably stronger after the upgrades finally finish.
500 HP +3AU: 22 +3WU Marauder rockets for kill 500 HP +5AU: 24 500 HP +6AU: 26 550 HP +3AU: 24 550 HP +5AU: 27 550 HP +6AU: 28
On August 23 2013 06:40 Grumbels wrote: How about the following:
Chitinous Plating upgrade removed. Ultralisks start with an additional +2 armor baseline.
You pretty much need the upgrade anyway, it just adds time to the transition window before ultralisks can be useful.
I consider this less drastic than the +50hp buff.
+50 HP or CP have a similar impact on a single Ultra. IF CP was removed you would have one more Ultra out most of the time and the transition would be a little bit smother. 550 HP Ultras will be considerably stronger after the upgrades finally finish.
500 HP +3AU: 22 +3WU Marauder rockets for kill 500 HP +5AU: 24 500 HP +6AU: 26 550 HP +3AU: 24 550 HP +5AU: 27 550 HP +6AU: 28
In all honesty, when I do get Ultras out, they do not "overwhelm" the Terran, who is constantly attacking/dropping anyhow. And, honestly, 7 out of 10 times, they see Ultras coming, be it Hive being morphed, or Ultra cavern being constructed, and even after that, it takes 55 in-game seconds (if I am not mistaken) for Ultras to pop out. That's a lot of time for Terran to prepare.
Point is not that they can scout that, it's the fact that if Terrans overdo Marines and I get 5-6 Ultras out at once, I will kill that army cost-efficiently, especially with a good engagement. However, once I do kill the army, Terran switches to Marauder production and we're back on the same footing again, it's just that Terran can no longer choose where the fights will occur. If scouted, I do not even get to kill his army before Marauders pop out, and so far, I was never maxed out with Ultras against a good Terran simply because they keep eating the gas away from constant engagements and drops, forcing either Hydras or Banelings.
It's probably my bad mechanics as well that make me feel somewhat "even" with Terran, or theirs as well. But, today, I've played 3 ZvTs and I never made it alive to Hive tech. It's just too darn hard for me, it seems.
I'd honestly rather they looked at changing how mules work, from a 0 supply resource gatherer, to a buff for scvs mining rate or something. This would mean that harassing a terrans economy is actually a viable way to win, it would mean that terrans cannot just endlessly rally out units and not worry about losing entire mineral lines of scvs to like 5 banelings, and it would probably be a hell of a lot more interesting then giving ultralisks of all things a health buff.
On August 23 2013 16:37 bo1b wrote: I'd honestly rather they looked at changing how mules work, from a 0 supply resource gatherer, to a buff for scvs mining rate or something. This would mean that harassing a terrans economy is actually a viable way to win, it would mean that terrans cannot just endlessly rally out units and not worry about losing entire mineral lines of scvs to like 5 banelings, and it would probably be a hell of a lot more interesting then giving ultralisks of all things a health buff.
I have read this argument a few times now: "Terran just drops mules to replace lost workers!" This is just not true. If the terran macros correctly he will use mules constantly to offset the slower worker building rate. Over all he will build less workers and make up the difference to other races with mules. If you kill off his workers he will have to replace them unless you caught him when he was trying to transition to orbital eco anyway. Typical mid-game harassment hurts the terran just as much as it hurts the other races. The huge advantages of mules are: No supply and the ability to concentrate mining in a short period of time and on one base. On top of that they are strong in low eco games after all ins.
On August 23 2013 10:16 Grumbels wrote: have ghosts be viable as a transition
Ghosts are anti-spell casters and Zerg doesn't use many spellcasters in lategame anymore, as they are no longer the core of the army. You can probably make a couple of Ghosts for those 4-5 Infestors, but that's about it. Or those 2-3 Vipers.
No one wants to see Brood Lord mass Snipe again.
I think it would be nice for a reworked snipe to have an anti-massive utility. I had an earlier suggestion to give snipe a 0.5s stun effect, but nobody seemed to like that. *shrug*
dont buff snipe at all. it's fine as antispellcaster ability. the original snipe was even worse than WoL fungal in terms of balance and how the opponent couldnt do shit against it. I think the easiest way to buff the ghost vs zerg while keeping it untouched vs Protoss is to convert the +10 vs light into a +10 vs biological. it would still have a little less dps than marines or marauders vs armored, but ghosts vs spellcasters or as cloaked threat in a combat would be much more useful. They could fullfill their role(s) while not getting dominated as hard by the normal combat units.
On August 23 2013 10:16 Grumbels wrote: have ghosts be viable as a transition
Ghosts are anti-spell casters and Zerg doesn't use many spellcasters in lategame anymore, as they are no longer the core of the army. You can probably make a couple of Ghosts for those 4-5 Infestors, but that's about it. Or those 2-3 Vipers.
No one wants to see Brood Lord mass Snipe again.
I think it would be nice for a reworked snipe to have an anti-massive utility. I had an earlier suggestion to give snipe a 0.5s stun effect, but nobody seemed to like that. *shrug*
The problem with snipe in the first place was its ridiculous utility in countering zerg tier 3, aka massive units.
On August 23 2013 10:16 Grumbels wrote: have ghosts be viable as a transition
Ghosts are anti-spell casters and Zerg doesn't use many spellcasters in lategame anymore, as they are no longer the core of the army. You can probably make a couple of Ghosts for those 4-5 Infestors, but that's about it. Or those 2-3 Vipers.
No one wants to see Brood Lord mass Snipe again.
I think it would be nice for a reworked snipe to have an anti-massive utility. I had an earlier suggestion to give snipe a 0.5s stun effect, but nobody seemed to like that. *shrug*
The problem with snipe in the first place was its ridiculous utility in countering zerg tier 3, aka massive units.
But it's okay for snipe to have some utility in countering zerg tier 3, isn't it? There clearly should be a middle ground between the current uselessness and the previous ridiculousness. And they can always slightly change the design of snipe so that it doesn't benefit from going pure ghost.
Keep in mind that qxc wrote a blog post about how snipe should not be set to 25 vs massive but rather to 35, just so it could keep some utility, and this idea was received very well. (link)
On August 23 2013 10:16 Grumbels wrote: have ghosts be viable as a transition
Ghosts are anti-spell casters and Zerg doesn't use many spellcasters in lategame anymore, as they are no longer the core of the army. You can probably make a couple of Ghosts for those 4-5 Infestors, but that's about it. Or those 2-3 Vipers.
No one wants to see Brood Lord mass Snipe again.
I think it would be nice for a reworked snipe to have an anti-massive utility. I had an earlier suggestion to give snipe a 0.5s stun effect, but nobody seemed to like that. *shrug*
The problem with snipe in the first place was its ridiculous utility in countering zerg tier 3, aka massive units.
But it's okay for snipe to have some utility in countering zerg tier 3, isn't it? There clearly should be a middle ground between the current uselessness and the previous ridiculousness. And they can always slightly change the design of snipe so that it doesn't benefit from going pure ghost.
Keep in mind that qxc wrote a blog post about how snipe should not be set to 25 vs massive but rather to 35, just so it could keep some utility, and this idea was received very well. (link)
25 vs massive is enough imo. 35 means 1 ghost dealing 280dmg = 1 ghost > 1 BL (which are already in a very bad spot) + 2 ghosts > 1 ultra (and they are already softened up a lot by WMs). just make it 25 +25 vs non-massive is fine.
Ghost should be a late game addition unit, not a full transition unit like what it was when snipe was broken. Since zerg aren't able to get to give so easily and infestor are not that mass able anymore but needed for ultra, ghost should make a return if necessary, sniping infestors of emp them will make ultras extremely vulnerable to kiting
Overseer seem nice, I am uncertain that the "buffing" the upgrades for mech units the reasoning seem kind of flimsy. They are probably just trying that change to see what happends.
It seems like Zerg are having tons of trouble surviving 2 base all ins vs protoss AND can't win vs protoss in late late game scenarios. Two very different problems Blizzard needs to consider looking into. I really don't know what tweaks would work to balance the game but I feel like a change to hydra/swarmhost or how Zerg gets to the midgame will help.
On August 24 2013 02:51 zJayy962 wrote: It seems like Zerg are having tons of trouble surviving 2 base all ins vs protoss AND can't win vs protoss in late late game scenarios. Two very different problems Blizzard needs to consider looking into. I really don't know what tweaks would work to balance the game but I feel like a change to hydra/swarmhost or how Zerg gets to the midgame will help.
What's your basis for this? I haven't seen or experienced either of these. Holding your third against a 2-base all in is the deciding moment of many games, and Zerg can certainly handle it.
Late late game Protoss can have some scary unit compositions, but Zerg has the tools to fight all of them.
On August 24 2013 02:51 zJayy962 wrote: It seems like Zerg are having tons of trouble surviving 2 base all ins vs protoss AND can't win vs protoss in late late game scenarios. Two very different problems Blizzard needs to consider looking into. I really don't know what tweaks would work to balance the game but I feel like a change to hydra/swarmhost or how Zerg gets to the midgame will help.
What's your basis for this? I haven't seen or experienced either of these. Holding your third against a 2-base all in is the deciding moment of many games, and Zerg can certainly handle it.
Late late game Protoss can have some scary unit compositions, but Zerg has the tools to fight all of them.
I also find it hard to believe the original statement, coming from a Zerg player. If you scout an allin and prepare for it, the only thing left to do is get a good engagement and even if he breaks into your third and kills it, you're still way ahead in workers count. If you do not prepare for it, that's your own fault.
However, my subjective opinion is that I hate using Swarm Hosts, they are just crappy units for me to use as Zerg, they feel gimmicky, and at times, too strong against a Protoss who doesn't have 5+ Colossi. Quite frankly, they are the backbone of the Zerg army and without them, Zerg simply doesn't stand a chance against Protoss.
On August 24 2013 02:51 zJayy962 wrote: It seems like Zerg are having tons of trouble surviving 2 base all ins vs protoss AND can't win vs protoss in late late game scenarios. Two very different problems Blizzard needs to consider looking into. I really don't know what tweaks would work to balance the game but I feel like a change to hydra/swarmhost or how Zerg gets to the midgame will help.
What's your basis for this? I haven't seen or experienced either of these. Holding your third against a 2-base all in is the deciding moment of many games, and Zerg can certainly handle it.
Late late game Protoss can have some scary unit compositions, but Zerg has the tools to fight all of them.
I also find it hard to believe the original statement, coming from a Zerg player. If you scout an allin and prepare for it, the only thing left to do is get a good engagement and even if he breaks into your third and kills it, you're still way ahead in workers count. If you do not prepare for it, that's your own fault.
However, my subjective opinion is that I hate using Swarm Hosts, they are just crappy units for me to use as Zerg, they feel gimmicky, and at times, too strong against a Protoss who doesn't have 5+ Colossi. Quite frankly, they are the backbone of the Zerg army and without them, Zerg simply doesn't stand a chance against Protoss.
The problem stems from the way Blizzard handles both races. Zerg is supposed to have these cheap, fast disposable units, but lacks a core unit to build an army around. I'm talking about a ranged unit that can force a fight through siege strength. Terran bio units meet this standard, as well as stalker, sentries, and colossi. The closest units Zerg has to this is the Hydralisk and Broodlord, both of which get slaughtered in a direct fight, and one of which isn't even available unit very late stages.
On the other hand, Protoss is a race with weak base stats on gateway units and OP higher tech options, this causes the odd situation where trading away the core of their army with any sort of relative exchange is a huge win, while losing even a handful of higher tech units can be game-ending.
Combining these two together: zerglings and roaches aren't even worth making past the 10 min mark or so, Protoss has no incentive to risk poking out of their base unless they're sure to win, and NOBODY wants to fight in the middle of the map. You end up with this truly stupid situation of ALL high tech units on both sides, as the only low tech units even viable at this point is Stalkers and Hydras, and losing 20-30 of those in a fight means you have to retreat and regroup because BOTH sides can reinforce literally by the dozens thanks to inject and warp gate.
I find the hatred that people have for the SH both understandable and audacious. On the one hand, its annoying to have an endless stream of free units marching into your natural all game long. On the other hand, with force field, colossi, and the ultra hard counters Protoss has available to every single Zerg unit, WTF else do they have available?
On August 24 2013 02:51 zJayy962 wrote: It seems like Zerg are having tons of trouble surviving 2 base all ins vs protoss AND can't win vs protoss in late late game scenarios. Two very different problems Blizzard needs to consider looking into. I really don't know what tweaks would work to balance the game but I feel like a change to hydra/swarmhost or how Zerg gets to the midgame will help.
What's your basis for this? I haven't seen or experienced either of these. Holding your third against a 2-base all in is the deciding moment of many games, and Zerg can certainly handle it.
Late late game Protoss can have some scary unit compositions, but Zerg has the tools to fight all of them.
Mainly based off of Korean ZvP over the last 2 months.
Make Infestors useful again in a non gimmicky unbalanced way like in WoL so Zerg can actually get up to Tier 3 in ZvT. Then maybe we can see if we need to buff the Ultralisk or not.
it's a sad day for protoss when they base our success off rain and proleague. 1 solid player and a league MOST SUITED TO GIMMICKY ONE TIME BUILDS does not a race make.
and yes as everyone pointed out protoss dependence on high tech makes them a volatile race that can't really be fixed and it's sad. Zealots and dragoons in BW were a lot manlier, stalkers are a god damn joke past 10 mins.
On August 26 2013 00:32 VayneAuthority wrote: it's a sad day for protoss when they base our success off rain and proleague. 1 solid player and a league MOST SUITED TO GIMMICKY ONE TIME BUILDS does not a race make.
and yes as everyone pointed out protoss dependence on high tech makes them a volatile race that can't really be fixed and it's sad. Zealots and dragoons in BW were a lot manlier, stalkers are a god damn joke past 10 mins.
Protoss has wcs eu/na and I want to say another tournament. It's not like your race is doing awful right now.
and how do you think that will affect the matchup in a more balanced way?
- Longer build time would mean that you want to nerf timings or re-maxing. Since timings are not he problem nor is the reactor production of them. - Rushes are not the problem - Would need to drastically increase it. - No. - Remove it. - Remove it. - No.
Problem with widow mines is that Terran is dictating where the Zerg will engage, as we saw today, Terran slowly pushes towards their goal of killing off an expansion and Widow Mines dictate that. Whoever states Widow Mines require a lot of micro, they require as much micro as pressing your Siege Mode hotkey on your Siege Tanks. One widow mine can take out a whole pack of main core of the Zerg army, which is Zerglings or Banelings. Roach/Hydra is really having a hard time against 3/3 Terran, and you cannot possibly survive out of it, nor can you "nicely" switch to Ultras because you are missing the upgrades (unless you go triple evo chamber, which I do not see working as Terran starves out the Zerg on gas). It's how cost-efficient it is, and Terran already has the most cost-efficient unit at disposal, and as we see, they just mass them.
Quite frankly, it was not fun for me to watch Terran slowly drilling away the Zerg every game. Maybe it's the problem with the current meta and how pros played it out with their muta/ling/bling style, but they either finished the game with critical number of Mutas or they lost while stuck in Lair tech. Maybe Zerg should stay a bit more on 2 bases and apply pressure via Roaches or something.
I don't know why you matched build time with timing attacks, if a unit has a higher build time generally you'll have fewer of them at any given point and while they will still be equally powerful they can't have as much effect on the match-up anymore due to their lower numbers. It's the same thing as changing resource cost which also means you'll have less stuff.
Let's face it, TvZ is slanted in Terran's favor atm. Even DK saw this and honestly just an overseer buff isn't going to cut it. However it's interesting because the decision to buff the Overseer is basically admitting that its Terran's cloaked units which are the problem, ie its the widow mines that are the problem.
If T & Z both don't make mistakes during the game, the T comes out ahead simply because of how incredibly cost-efficient bio/mine is compared to Marine/Tank.
In the Marine/Tank composition, Siege Tanks couldn't shoot at Mutalisks, so Mutalisks were a key unit in TvZ mid-game. Their role was to harass Terran's base, force Turrets, pick off valuable gas units such as Medivacs and Tanks and defend against drops. If the Medivac and Siege Tank numbers were lowered enough, then Marines were rendered inefficient against Ling/Bane. That's why Mutal/Ling/Bling was one of the go-to compositions in mid-game WoL TvZ (at least before Queen buff and then infestors).
Fast-forward to Hots. Mines are insanely cheap, can be mass-produced, are expendable and they take out Mutalisk, which is why bio/mine is stronger than Marine/Tank ever was. Bio/Mine effectively shuts down mutalisks. Mines are expendable so while killing them is nice it doesn't mean that Terran will get behind because of it (unlike Tanks in Marine/Tank). Mines are also cloaked and can bring an entire mutalisk cloud into the orange with a single hit. This means that proper mine and turret placement almost completely nullifies Mutalisk harass, even though Mutalisks are now faster and can regenerate health. This means that now Mutalisks are only have two "jobs" which is picking off medivacs and defending against drops. Zerg players also can't afford to not make Mutalisks in favor of something else otherwise drops can become very, very dangerous. Even now, Mutalisks have a hard time actually picking off Medivacs since Medivacs are always close to Marines and there's always the possibility of a hidden mine somewhere so it becomes pretty difficult for Zerg to kill of key units in the mid-game. Those key units are Medivacs, Marines and Mines being so incredibly expendable.
The only way to remain cost-efficient against Terran as Zerg is to be on 4 saturated bases to Terran's 3. That's when it becomes possible to have enough gas income to get enough banelings to fight evenly... to an extent. It's incredibly difficult to fight efficiently against bio/mine with muta/ling/bane. If Zerg loses their 4th it's over, so an intelligent Terran will push towards the Zerg's 4th so as to shut it down. If they can do that, then Zerg can't afford banelings to fight evenly and they can't afford to tech to Hive for the 3-3 tech, which leads me to my next point.
Terran has easier access to 3-3 compared to Zerg. Once Terran has finished 2-2 they can immediately start 3-3. Zerg simply can't do that. They have to make sure they have both an infestation pit and a hive finished before they can start 3-3. That's the equivalent of a 250 gas and 150 second upgrade to be allowed to start 3-3.
This is why TvZ is Terran favored at the moment. I think that even if the Overseer buff isn't necessarily stupid, it might be a better idea to do two things: Give Zerg quicker access to 3-3. Perhaps make 3-3 available with infestation pit, or perhaps nothing at all. Banelings should also be more efficient. I can't give precise numbers, but I would say that only 1 out of 3 banelings ever actually connects in professional TvZ.
The big issue I have with complaining about balance in ZvT is no zerg tries anything but Ling/Bling/Muta despite it being proven before that Roach/Hydra is actually really good against mine compositions. It strikes me that the issue isn't widowmines, it's that maybe hydras could do with a +bio buff or something to make them better against marines (which they should be) either that or zergs should stop trying to trade evenly all the time with ling/bling/muta and actually crush the force with roach/hydra as is already..
On August 26 2013 04:57 Qikz wrote: The big issue I have with complaining about balance in ZvT is no zerg tries anything but Ling/Bling/Muta despite it being proven before that Roach/Hydra is actually really good against mine compositions. It strikes me that the issue isn't widowmines, it's that maybe hydras could do with a +bio buff or something to make them better against marines (which they should be) either that or zergs should stop trying to trade evenly all the time with ling/bling/muta and actually crush the force with roach/hydra as is already..
The only time when Roach/Hydra is viable is when they have some AOE support like Infestors, which are very gimicky atm, and Vipers, which come out on Hive tech. Sure, WM may get countered, but MMM will still eat up that composition pretty quickly.
On August 26 2013 04:57 Qikz wrote: The big issue I have with complaining about balance in ZvT is no zerg tries anything but Ling/Bling/Muta despite it being proven before that Roach/Hydra is actually really good against mine compositions. It strikes me that the issue isn't widowmines, it's that maybe hydras could do with a +bio buff or something to make them better against marines (which they should be).
Roach/Hydra is very cost efficient against Bio/Mine in the early stages of the game where Zerg tends to have a bit more supply than Terran and both are under 150 supply. However once supply goes over 180+, Roach/Hydra isn't as efficient anymore due to the fact that they're bigger units so they cover more area for damage and due to the fact that there are enough Medivacs out to heal units at a rate where Roach/Hydra can't keep up anymore.
What also kicks in is that Roach/Hydra does quite poorly against drops compared to MLB so a good Terran can really exploit that. Siege Tanks also become quite strong as Roach/Hydra can't really break a good Siege Tank with Bio/Medivac support.
So using Roach/Hydra as a composition means that you have a timing widow early-mid game where you have to do damage to Terran so that they can't max. this is easier said than done given the defensive capabilities the Terran race has (Tanks & Mines).Something else to consider is that if you're investing into Roach/Hydra, you probably want to upgrade those units. If you're upgrading zerg ranged weapons, chances are you're not upgrading melee. So when you finally get to Ultralisks they won't be as good as they would have been had you been using MLB. Unless you're going SH, but drops just tear SH apart.
Unless they do indeed buff Hydra or something, Roach/Hydra isn't a viable answer.
On August 26 2013 04:57 Qikz wrote: The big issue I have with complaining about balance in ZvT is no zerg tries anything but Ling/Bling/Muta despite it being proven before that Roach/Hydra is actually really good against mine compositions. It strikes me that the issue isn't widowmines, it's that maybe hydras could do with a +bio buff or something to make them better against marines (which they should be) either that or zergs should stop trying to trade evenly all the time with ling/bling/muta and actually crush the force with roach/hydra as is already..
Roach/hydra cant deal with drops, is weak against tank and isnt that strong against MMMM anyway
But in the end the only thing that matter is that it cannot deal with drops, so it's not viable
On August 26 2013 04:57 Qikz wrote: The big issue I have with complaining about balance in ZvT is no zerg tries anything but Ling/Bling/Muta despite it being proven before that Roach/Hydra is actually really good against mine compositions. It strikes me that the issue isn't widowmines, it's that maybe hydras could do with a +bio buff or something to make them better against marines (which they should be) either that or zergs should stop trying to trade evenly all the time with ling/bling/muta and actually crush the force with roach/hydra as is already..
I'd like to see someone get good with timing fungal growth. Another thing I haven't seen a lot of at higher levels is blinding cloud + banes. Since I can see Blizzard being very scared of touching infestors I'd like to see them take a longer look at vipers (they were already discussing the starting energy - perhaps the tech position would be worth looking at too).
On August 26 2013 05:27 manniefresh wrote: Can we talk about how Drilling Claws upgrade is imba? It makes it so you never catch widow mines "unsieged".
Also Fungal needs a buff bad... I think a projectile speed buff would be a good answer. Thoughts?
Yes, I agree! I think it's a good time to remove Drilling Claws.
On August 26 2013 05:27 manniefresh wrote: Can we talk about how Drilling Claws upgrade is imba? It makes it so you never catch widow mines "unsieged".
Also Fungal needs a buff bad... I think a projectile speed buff would be a good answer. Thoughts?
The issue with FG is the freeze effect. If it hits everything dies to chain, and when it misses the Zerg is screwed. FG needs o be changed in some way before a any buff is warranted. Also the issue with Infestors is the BL Infestor combo. It's hard to buff Infestors without risking a return of this.
On August 26 2013 05:48 udgnim wrote: bring back Lurker so Zerg will get their own set it and forget it unit
that will change how Terrans play marine / medivac / widow mine
BUT NOOOOO, Blizzard says Lurkers perform an action too similar to Banelings
The more recent news is they have tried several times to implement the lurker but its to hard cuz of longrange units like the colossous
lol. Yet they have no problem inventing factory units that can be healed by medivacs or mines that act like rocket launcher stations.
In all honesty I dont see the point of lurker right now, they wont deal with mines, they wont deal with medivacs, they wont bring anything new to the table
On August 26 2013 05:48 udgnim wrote: bring back Lurker so Zerg will get their own set it and forget it unit
that will change how Terrans play marine / medivac / widow mine
BUT NOOOOO, Blizzard says Lurkers perform an action too similar to Banelings
The more recent news is they have tried several times to implement the lurker but its to hard cuz of longrange units like the colossous
lol. Yet they have no problem inventing factory units that can be healed by medivacs or mines that act like rocket launcher stations.
In all honesty I dont see the point of lurker right now, they wont deal with mines, they wont deal with medivacs, they wont bring anything new to the table
On August 26 2013 05:48 udgnim wrote: bring back Lurker so Zerg will get their own set it and forget it unit
that will change how Terrans play marine / medivac / widow mine
BUT NOOOOO, Blizzard says Lurkers perform an action too similar to Banelings
The more recent news is they have tried several times to implement the lurker but its to hard cuz of longrange units like the colossous
lol. Yet they have no problem inventing factory units that can be healed by medivacs or mines that act like rocket launcher stations.
In all honesty I dont see the point of lurker right now, they wont deal with mines, they wont deal with medivacs, they wont bring anything new to the table
They would deal with Marines cost-efficiently.
Swarm host also deal with marines cost-efficiently, like I said, even if i enjoyed playing them, I dont see the point of lurker right now
On August 26 2013 05:48 udgnim wrote: bring back Lurker so Zerg will get their own set it and forget it unit
that will change how Terrans play marine / medivac / widow mine
BUT NOOOOO, Blizzard says Lurkers perform an action too similar to Banelings
The more recent news is they have tried several times to implement the lurker but its to hard cuz of longrange units like the colossous
By the way, people used to ask for the colossus getting an attack similar to that of the lurker i.e. a line from the colossus to the target instead of the way it is now. The unit would still lack some of the cool aspects of the lurker (maybe if it had a set-up mode) but it would be quite similar really.
i think it might be beneficial to make some changes to the swarmhost
the swarmhost is halfway viable against the slow armies of protoss (and against mech sometimes)
against bio+mine and drops swarmhosts are just horribly pathetic. going swarmhosts in TvZ is almost like suicide because they are so slow in just their mechanics of battle
i have an idea... maybe increase swarmhost speed of engaging in combat but bring along nerfs as well
what about this...
give swarmhosts an attack-move button and allow swarmhosts to attack-move while burrowed and give them 2.25 speed when burrowed and give swarmhosts a "fake attack" that does no damage just functions as targeting for locusts
give locusts speedling speed and melee range, and make it so swarmhosts need to get in 20range of a target to fire. swarmhosts "fire" is firing the locusts. make the locusts now fire/spawn instantly (instead of getting that spawntime). when swarmhosts fire their locusts, locusts will auto-target the unit the swarmhost targeted with its "fake attack" but locusts can also be manually controlled at any time
and heres the nerf. after swarmhosts fire their locust, they are unable to move or unburrow for 25 seconds. recharge time of locust stays at 25 seconds.
with this change, large amounts of collossi and hellbats would still beat swarmhosts because the hosts would be unable to move and melee locusts are killable by hellbats and even blueflame hellions
so this creates counters for zerg. swarmhosts would do okay vs MMM, swarmhosts get countered by hellbats/blueflame hellions zerg needs lots of banelings to deal with the hellions/hellbats so it creates a good cycle of counters on the ground for zerg vs terran
swarmhosts > mmm+mines > mass banelingz > hellbats/hellions > swarmhosts
On August 26 2013 04:57 Qikz wrote: The big issue I have with complaining about balance in ZvT is no zerg tries anything but Ling/Bling/Muta despite it being proven before that Roach/Hydra is actually really good against mine compositions. It strikes me that the issue isn't widowmines, it's that maybe hydras could do with a +bio buff or something to make them better against marines (which they should be) either that or zergs should stop trying to trade evenly all the time with ling/bling/muta and actually crush the force with roach/hydra as is already..
What? Are you serious? Zergs have tried roach/hydra, have tried roach/ling/bane, wtf do you expect us to do when they are actually garbage compositions? It relies entirely on terran not realizing what you are doing when doing roach/hydra or roach/ling/bane.
and how do you think that will affect the matchup in a more balanced way?
- Longer build time would mean that you want to nerf timings or re-maxing. Since timings are not he problem nor is the reactor production of them. - Rushes are not the problem - Would need to drastically increase it. - No. - Remove it. - Remove it. - No.
Problem with widow mines is that Terran is dictating where the Zerg will engage, as we saw today, Terran slowly pushes towards their goal of killing off an expansion and Widow Mines dictate that. Whoever states Widow Mines require a lot of micro, they require as much micro as pressing your Siege Mode hotkey on your Siege Tanks. One widow mine can take out a whole pack of main core of the Zerg army, which is Zerglings or Banelings. Roach/Hydra is really having a hard time against 3/3 Terran, and you cannot possibly survive out of it, nor can you "nicely" switch to Ultras because you are missing the upgrades (unless you go triple evo chamber, which I do not see working as Terran starves out the Zerg on gas). It's how cost-efficient it is, and Terran already has the most cost-efficient unit at disposal, and as we see, they just mass them.
Quite frankly, it was not fun for me to watch Terran slowly drilling away the Zerg every game. Maybe it's the problem with the current meta and how pros played it out with their muta/ling/bling style, but they either finished the game with critical number of Mutas or they lost while stuck in Lair tech. Maybe Zerg should stay a bit more on 2 bases and apply pressure via Roaches or something.
Oh well.
One possible way to encourage WM disposal with infestors is cheaper fungals. Present muta/overseer style is too risky to be a main comp. But old habits die hard.
On August 26 2013 05:48 udgnim wrote: bring back Lurker so Zerg will get their own set it and forget it unit
that will change how Terrans play marine / medivac / widow mine
BUT NOOOOO, Blizzard says Lurkers perform an action too similar to Banelings
The more recent news is they have tried several times to implement the lurker but its to hard cuz of longrange units like the colossous
lol. Yet they have no problem inventing factory units that can be healed by medivacs or mines that act like rocket launcher stations.
In all honesty I dont see the point of lurker right now, they wont deal with mines, they wont deal with medivacs, they wont bring anything new to the table
On August 26 2013 05:27 manniefresh wrote: Can we talk about how Drilling Claws upgrade is imba? It makes it so you never catch widow mines "unsieged".
Also Fungal needs a buff bad... I think a projectile speed buff would be a good answer. Thoughts?
Yes, I agree! I think it's a good time to remove Drilling Claws.
Actually Zerg need a way to safely detect mines, same way Terran have scan and Protoss have observers, detection to changelings?
Changelings trigger mines? Propably imba because WMs trigger ontop of marines via changeling is a free kill for the Zerg. Or maybe it'll work out b/c the Terran now must kill the changeling or die to Widow mines. Hmmm
On August 26 2013 06:42 VayneAuthority wrote: it would make missile comp in zvp way too strong, roach/hydra/lurker would be insane to deal with, zealots would just melt
On August 26 2013 05:27 manniefresh wrote: Can we talk about how Drilling Claws upgrade is imba? It makes it so you never catch widow mines "unsieged".
Also Fungal needs a buff bad... I think a projectile speed buff would be a good answer. Thoughts?
Yes, I agree! I think it's a good time to remove Drilling Claws.
Actually Zerg need a way to safely detect mines, same way Terran have scan and Protoss have observers, detection to changelings?
Changelings trigger mines? Propably imba because WMs trigger ontop of marines via changeling is a free kill for the Zerg. Or maybe it'll work out b/c the Terran now must kill the changeling or die to Widow mines. Hmmm
Changlings do tirgger mines as long as they haven't already been seen by the terran (so they don't look like a marine yet. Why does zerg not have a safe way to detect mines? I find it much easier to built 4 overseers than to build 2 observers. And when I play protoss, I'd rather have those overseers than observers as the game goes later.
On August 26 2013 05:27 manniefresh wrote: Can we talk about how Drilling Claws upgrade is imba? It makes it so you never catch widow mines "unsieged".
Also Fungal needs a buff bad... I think a projectile speed buff would be a good answer. Thoughts?
Yes, I agree! I think it's a good time to remove Drilling Claws.
Actually Zerg need a way to safely detect mines, same way Terran have scan and Protoss have observers, detection to changelings?
Changelings trigger mines? Propably imba because WMs trigger ontop of marines via changeling is a free kill for the Zerg. Or maybe it'll work out b/c the Terran now must kill the changeling or die to Widow mines. Hmmm
Changlings do tirgger mines as long as they haven't already been seen by the terran (so they don't look like a marine yet. Why does zerg not have a safe way to detect mines? I find it much easier to built 4 overseers than to build 2 observers. And when I play protoss, I'd rather have those overseers than observers as the game goes later.
Because overseers are a lot slower than the rest of the zerg army. Also mines 2 shot overseer while they dont shoot obs.
One possible way to encourage WM disposal with infestors is cheaper fungals.
Ooh, 50 energy fungal. That would certainly make infestors more cost-efficient (4 fungals per infestor vs 2), and it would also remove the necessity for pathogen glands research first, (though that upgrade might still be worth getting in the long run). It would save zergs 150 gas in the short term and make the transition easier without actually buffing fungal. Fungal would still be just as terrible for killing things quickly, but allow the zerg army to connect without dedicting as much gas as it did previously. Interesting...
On August 26 2013 06:42 VayneAuthority wrote: it would make missile comp in zvp way too strong, roach/hydra/lurker would be insane to deal with, zealots would just melt
give Protoss Reavers
And then?
With 10 Reavers Protoss will flatten everything OR the Reaver gets nerfed to the ground as the Siege Tank "had to be" and is nearly useless.
SC2 is a game designed around huge armies which are concentrated in a tight ball and there is no serious punishment allowed for that ... by the devs. Baneling mines/bombing runs are apparently too bad to pull off (hardly any progamer does them anymore) and Storm is relatively easy to dodge; these are one-time attacks though and not attacks with a cooldown like the ones from a Reaver, a Siege Tank or a Colossus. Those will never be allowed to be threatening to the deathball structure of the game!
If you look at the campaign version of the Lurker you will notice that it deals less damage than the BW one ... in a game where there is more to kill. People have complained about the Lurker not being good because of this. A "new and improved SC2"-Reaver would probably follow the same route as the Siege Tank or the Nuke (which deals pitiful damage against buildings now) ... soften it up until it doesnt really hurt anymore to keep the whining away. So be careful what you are asking for, because it could destroy fond memories.
One possible way to encourage WM disposal with infestors is cheaper fungals.
Ooh, 50 energy fungal. That would certainly make infestors more cost-efficient (4 fungals per infestor vs 2), and it would also remove the necessity for pathogen glands research first, (though that upgrade might still be worth getting in the long run). It would save zergs 150 gas in the short term and make the transition easier without actually buffing fungal. Fungal would still be just as terrible for killing things quickly, but allow the zerg army to connect without dedicting as much gas as it did previously. Interesting...
Yes, FG has already been heavily nerfed to make way for SH, with 50 energy, money fungals will come back. SH cannot fill the role of mine disposal as small counts of SH barely make it to trigger mines as deployment is too high to compete with upgraded WM.
One possible way to encourage WM disposal with infestors is cheaper fungals.
Ooh, 50 energy fungal. That would certainly make infestors more cost-efficient (4 fungals per infestor vs 2), and it would also remove the necessity for pathogen glands research first, (though that upgrade might still be worth getting in the long run). It would save zergs 150 gas in the short term and make the transition easier without actually buffing fungal. Fungal would still be just as terrible for killing things quickly, but allow the zerg army to connect without dedicting as much gas as it did previously. Interesting...
Yes, FG has already been heavily nerfed to make way for SH, with 50 energy, money fungals will come back. SH cannot fill the role of mine disposal as small counts of SH barely make it to trigger mines as deployment is too high to compete with upgraded WM.
Use Infested Terrans to trigger the mines? They are dirt cheap for 25 energy ...
One possible way to encourage WM disposal with infestors is cheaper fungals.
Ooh, 50 energy fungal. That would certainly make infestors more cost-efficient (4 fungals per infestor vs 2), and it would also remove the necessity for pathogen glands research first, (though that upgrade might still be worth getting in the long run). It would save zergs 150 gas in the short term and make the transition easier without actually buffing fungal. Fungal would still be just as terrible for killing things quickly, but allow the zerg army to connect without dedicting as much gas as it did previously. Interesting...
Yes, FG has already been heavily nerfed to make way for SH, with 50 energy, money fungals will come back. SH cannot fill the role of mine disposal as small counts of SH barely make it to trigger mines as deployment is too high to compete with upgraded WM.
Use Infested Terrans to trigger the mines? They are dirt cheap for 25 energy ...
Good like getting close enough to trigger 10 mines that cover the retreat path of the MMM. Also the MMM ball would kill the egg before it triggers the mine.
I wonder if a delay in retargeting would help. Ling triggers the mine as a target but dies to gunfire. Takes a couple seconds to retarget and gives time for the zerg to kill it.
One possible way to encourage WM disposal with infestors is cheaper fungals.
Ooh, 50 energy fungal. That would certainly make infestors more cost-efficient (4 fungals per infestor vs 2), and it would also remove the necessity for pathogen glands research first, (though that upgrade might still be worth getting in the long run). It would save zergs 150 gas in the short term and make the transition easier without actually buffing fungal. Fungal would still be just as terrible for killing things quickly, but allow the zerg army to connect without dedicting as much gas as it did previously. Interesting...
Yes, FG has already been heavily nerfed to make way for SH, with 50 energy, money fungals will come back. SH cannot fill the role of mine disposal as small counts of SH barely make it to trigger mines as deployment is too high to compete with upgraded WM.
Use Infested Terrans to trigger the mines? They are dirt cheap for 25 energy ...
I've noticed Scarlett and others trying this in the past. It has fallen out of use, I think largely because the infested terran eggs die to the bio ball before the widow mines actually fire half the time.
For reference, liquidpedia says infested terran eggs have 70 hp and 2 armor, and I think they are not affected by upgrades so...they'd die even to marines.
Edit: Note that by the time infestors are out marines will have +1, if not +2.
One possible way to encourage WM disposal with infestors is cheaper fungals.
Ooh, 50 energy fungal. That would certainly make infestors more cost-efficient (4 fungals per infestor vs 2), and it would also remove the necessity for pathogen glands research first, (though that upgrade might still be worth getting in the long run). It would save zergs 150 gas in the short term and make the transition easier without actually buffing fungal. Fungal would still be just as terrible for killing things quickly, but allow the zerg army to connect without dedicting as much gas as it did previously. Interesting...
Yes, FG has already been heavily nerfed to make way for SH, with 50 energy, money fungals will come back. SH cannot fill the role of mine disposal as small counts of SH barely make it to trigger mines as deployment is too high to compete with upgraded WM.
Use Infested Terrans to trigger the mines? They are dirt cheap for 25 energy ...
Yes, as I posted in Designated Balance thread before, Z already have the tools to disarm the 4M comp via including a small number of infestors in muta/ling/bling or roach/hydra. Burrowed infestors can come in to snipe bio-mine camps.
However, without a cheaper FG in its present nerfed form, the reward-to-risk ratio to research burrow, sneak up to a camp of 4M and fire off a few ITs to too great to justify the tech reroute, when a GM or M can have an easier time just massing enough mutas to one shot stray mines.
My thoughts are after seeing the WCS grand finals is that infestors need a slight buff for the zvt matchup.
1. I think giving infestors a slight buff to their move speed on creep would allow zerg to save more of their infestors after engagements. It would also help when using infestors to deal with drops.
2. Higher armour on the infestor eggs may allow them to live long enough against marine dps for them to activate the mines.
I don't think the pvz matchup would be affected that much by these changes.
On August 26 2013 14:28 Kiwan wrote: My thoughts are after seeing the WCS grand finals is that infestors need a slight buff for the zvt matchup.
1. I think giving infestors a slight buff to their move speed on creep would allow zerg to save more of their infestors after engagements. It would also help when using infestors to deal with drops.
2. Higher armour on the infestor eggs may allow them to live long enough against marine dps for them to activate the mines.
I don't think the pvz matchup would be affected that much by these changes.
I think that's a good alternative as it forces diverse play greatly rewarding burrowed infestor play something I miss from the WoL days.
On August 26 2013 06:42 VayneAuthority wrote: it would make missile comp in zvp way too strong, roach/hydra/lurker would be insane to deal with, zealots would just melt
give Protoss Reavers
Be honest here, you just want to make it purely BW at that point.
On August 26 2013 05:48 udgnim wrote: bring back Lurker so Zerg will get their own set it and forget it unit
that will change how Terrans play marine / medivac / widow mine
BUT NOOOOO, Blizzard says Lurkers perform an action too similar to Banelings
The more recent news is they have tried several times to implement the lurker but its to hard cuz of longrange units like the colossous
lol. Yet they have no problem inventing factory units that can be healed by medivacs or mines that act like rocket launcher stations.
In all honesty I dont see the point of lurker right now, they wont deal with mines, they wont deal with medivacs, they wont bring anything new to the table
On August 26 2013 15:10 ReMinD_ wrote: For the time being, they should just nerf Widow Mine. That is one unit that affects TvZ the most while having very little effect on other match-ups.
Sure, why not remove the only new unit Terran has in Hots from all matchups so that we can play 100% WoL.
On August 26 2013 15:10 ReMinD_ wrote: For the time being, they should just nerf Widow Mine. That is one unit that affects TvZ the most while having very little effect on other match-ups.
Sure, why not remove the only new unit Terran has in Hots from all matchups so that we can play 100% WoL.
Nerfing isn't the same as removing.
I made a big post in this thread discussing how bio/mine as a composition works and what zerg has to answer that composition. I put more thought and energy into that post than 90% of the people posting in this thread and everyone completely ignored it.
Sometimes I wonder if people really discuss things in threads or just post randomly without reading.
On August 26 2013 15:10 ReMinD_ wrote: For the time being, they should just nerf Widow Mine. That is one unit that affects TvZ the most while having very little effect on other match-ups.
Sure, why not remove the only new unit Terran has in Hots from all matchups so that we can play 100% WoL.
Lets not pretend mines aren't at least a little bit too good. Just reducing the attack radius by a bit would possibly be sufficient.
On August 26 2013 15:10 ReMinD_ wrote: For the time being, they should just nerf Widow Mine. That is one unit that affects TvZ the most while having very little effect on other match-ups.
Sure, why not remove the only new unit Terran has in Hots from all matchups so that we can play 100% WoL.
There is no matchup that revolves entirely around a HOTS unit other than ZvT and the Widow mine. Making it more reasonable is not making it 100% WOL
This is my analysis of bio/mine, feel free to comment it with rational arguments. Most of what I've said is based off of the first two games in Bomber vs JD in WCS finals where I feel that JD didn't really make any major mistakes.
On August 26 2013 04:41 Incognoto wrote: Let's face it, TvZ is slanted in Terran's favor atm. Even DK saw this and honestly just an overseer buff isn't going to cut it. However it's interesting because the decision to buff the Overseer is basically admitting that its Terran's cloaked units which are the problem, ie its the widow mines that are the problem.
If T & Z both don't make mistakes during the game, the T comes out ahead simply because of how incredibly cost-efficient bio/mine is compared to Marine/Tank.
In the Marine/Tank composition, Siege Tanks couldn't shoot at Mutalisks, so Mutalisks were a key unit in TvZ mid-game. Their role was to harass Terran's base, force Turrets, pick off valuable gas units such as Medivacs and Tanks and defend against drops. If the Medivac and Siege Tank numbers were lowered enough, then Marines were rendered inefficient against Ling/Bane. That's why Mutal/Ling/Bling was one of the go-to compositions in mid-game WoL TvZ (at least before Queen buff and then infestors).
Fast-forward to Hots. Mines are insanely cheap, can be mass-produced, are expendable and they take out Mutalisk, which is why bio/mine is stronger than Marine/Tank ever was. Bio/Mine effectively shuts down mutalisks. Mines are expendable so while killing them is nice it doesn't mean that Terran will get behind because of it (unlike Tanks in Marine/Tank). Mines are also cloaked and can bring an entire mutalisk cloud into the orange with a single hit. This means that proper mine and turret placement almost completely nullifies Mutalisk harass, even though Mutalisks are now faster and can regenerate health. This means that now Mutalisks are only have two "jobs" which is picking off medivacs and defending against drops. Zerg players also can't afford to not make Mutalisks in favor of something else otherwise drops can become very, very dangerous. Even now, Mutalisks have a hard time actually picking off Medivacs since Medivacs are always close to Marines and there's always the possibility of a hidden mine somewhere so it becomes pretty difficult for Zerg to kill of key units in the mid-game. Those key units are Medivacs, Marines and Mines being so incredibly expendable.
The only way to remain cost-efficient against Terran as Zerg is to be on 4 saturated bases to Terran's 3. That's when it becomes possible to have enough gas income to get enough banelings to fight evenly... to an extent. It's incredibly difficult to fight efficiently against bio/mine with muta/ling/bane. If Zerg loses their 4th it's over, so an intelligent Terran will push towards the Zerg's 4th so as to shut it down. If they can do that, then Zerg can't afford banelings to fight evenly and they can't afford to tech to Hive for the 3-3 tech, which leads me to my next point.
Terran has easier access to 3-3 compared to Zerg. Once Terran has finished 2-2 they can immediately start 3-3. Zerg simply can't do that. They have to make sure they have both an infestation pit and a hive finished before they can start 3-3. That's the equivalent of a 250 gas and 150 second upgrade to be allowed to start 3-3.
This is why TvZ is Terran favored at the moment. I think that even if the Overseer buff isn't necessarily stupid, it might be a better idea to do two things: Give Zerg quicker access to 3-3. Perhaps make 3-3 available with infestation pit, or perhaps nothing at all. Banelings should also be more efficient. I can't give precise numbers, but I would say that only 1 out of 3 banelings ever actually connects in professional TvZ.
On August 26 2013 15:10 ReMinD_ wrote: For the time being, they should just nerf Widow Mine. That is one unit that affects TvZ the most while having very little effect on other match-ups.
Sure, why not remove the only new unit Terran has in Hots from all matchups so that we can play 100% WoL.
Nerfing isn't the same as removing.
I made a big post in this thread discussing how bio/mine as a composition works and what zerg has to answer that composition. I put more thought and energy into that post than 90% of the people posting in this thread and everyone completely ignored it.
Sometimes I wonder if people really discuss things in threads or just post randomly without reading.
Putting thought and energy into something doesn't make it worth discussing just because of that. Probably it was not so well thought out since everyone ignored it?
Of course nerfing isn't the same as removing. But since mine is rarely used in TvT and TvP, weaker mine in those matchups will surely make for complete disappearance. And for TvZ, what nerft would you make? If you nerf mine just a little bit, you can easily get to the point where Tank is just better and we are back in WoL.
I would gladly buff Zerg in some way to deal with mines. But don't nerf the only unit Terran get in HotS.
On August 26 2013 15:52 Incognoto wrote: This is my analysis of bio/mine, feel free to comment it with rational arguments. Most of what I've said is based off of the first two games in Bomber vs JD in WCS finals where I feel that JD didn't really make any major mistakes.
On August 26 2013 04:41 Incognoto wrote: Let's face it, TvZ is slanted in Terran's favor atm. Even DK saw this and honestly just an overseer buff isn't going to cut it. However it's interesting because the decision to buff the Overseer is basically admitting that its Terran's cloaked units which are the problem, ie its the widow mines that are the problem.
If T & Z both don't make mistakes during the game, the T comes out ahead simply because of how incredibly cost-efficient bio/mine is compared to Marine/Tank.
In the Marine/Tank composition, Siege Tanks couldn't shoot at Mutalisks, so Mutalisks were a key unit in TvZ mid-game. Their role was to harass Terran's base, force Turrets, pick off valuable gas units such as Medivacs and Tanks and defend against drops. If the Medivac and Siege Tank numbers were lowered enough, then Marines were rendered inefficient against Ling/Bane. That's why Mutal/Ling/Bling was one of the go-to compositions in mid-game WoL TvZ (at least before Queen buff and then infestors).
Fast-forward to Hots. Mines are insanely cheap, can be mass-produced, are expendable and they take out Mutalisk, which is why bio/mine is stronger than Marine/Tank ever was. Bio/Mine effectively shuts down mutalisks. Mines are expendable so while killing them is nice it doesn't mean that Terran will get behind because of it (unlike Tanks in Marine/Tank). Mines are also cloaked and can bring an entire mutalisk cloud into the orange with a single hit. This means that proper mine and turret placement almost completely nullifies Mutalisk harass, even though Mutalisks are now faster and can regenerate health. This means that now Mutalisks are only have two "jobs" which is picking off medivacs and defending against drops. Zerg players also can't afford to not make Mutalisks in favor of something else otherwise drops can become very, very dangerous. Even now, Mutalisks have a hard time actually picking off Medivacs since Medivacs are always close to Marines and there's always the possibility of a hidden mine somewhere so it becomes pretty difficult for Zerg to kill of key units in the mid-game. Those key units are Medivacs, Marines and Mines being so incredibly expendable.
The only way to remain cost-efficient against Terran as Zerg is to be on 4 saturated bases to Terran's 3. That's when it becomes possible to have enough gas income to get enough banelings to fight evenly... to an extent. It's incredibly difficult to fight efficiently against bio/mine with muta/ling/bane. If Zerg loses their 4th it's over, so an intelligent Terran will push towards the Zerg's 4th so as to shut it down. If they can do that, then Zerg can't afford banelings to fight evenly and they can't afford to tech to Hive for the 3-3 tech, which leads me to my next point.
Terran has easier access to 3-3 compared to Zerg. Once Terran has finished 2-2 they can immediately start 3-3. Zerg simply can't do that. They have to make sure they have both an infestation pit and a hive finished before they can start 3-3. That's the equivalent of a 250 gas and 150 second upgrade to be allowed to start 3-3.
This is why TvZ is Terran favored at the moment. I think that even if the Overseer buff isn't necessarily stupid, it might be a better idea to do two things: Give Zerg quicker access to 3-3. Perhaps make 3-3 available with infestation pit, or perhaps nothing at all. Banelings should also be more efficient. I can't give precise numbers, but I would say that only 1 out of 3 banelings ever actually connects in professional TvZ.
I read this, and while I don't think you're wrong about anything, I think 3-3 is not the issue at all. The issue is being forced into ling/bling/muta because of the threat of drops, and the impossibility of trading favorably with ling/bling/muta against 4M. There are a lot of reasons why this is the case, but really T has two units that are simply cost-effective vs anything that needs to get into their range to attack - which is every Zerg unit sans Hydralisk and Broodlord. Broodlord is terrifyingly hard to tech to and has serious problems itself, and the Hydralisk is never going to be cost effective against anything.
Simply put, Zerg has no options in ZvT past the 10 minute mark. The game is always about surviving 4M with ling/bling/muta, and Zergs can only get so good at that.
Guys, I acknowladge Mine is a little bit too strong in TvZ, but just don't nerf it just because of TvZ. Let's buff Zerg in some way (Overseers speed is solid start, but I'd prefer something else) to help them against 4M. Mine is completely underused in other 2 matchups, which is really silly.
On August 26 2013 15:10 ReMinD_ wrote: For the time being, they should just nerf Widow Mine. That is one unit that affects TvZ the most while having very little effect on other match-ups.
Sure, why not remove the only new unit Terran has in Hots from all matchups so that we can play 100% WoL.
Nerfing isn't the same as removing.
I made a big post in this thread discussing how bio/mine as a composition works and what zerg has to answer that composition. I put more thought and energy into that post than 90% of the people posting in this thread and everyone completely ignored it.
Sometimes I wonder if people really discuss things in threads or just post randomly without reading.
Putting thought and energy into something doesn't make it worth discussing just because of that. Probably it was not so well thought out since everyone ignored it?
Of course nerfing isn't the same as removing. But since mine is rarely used in TvT and TvP, weaker mine in those matchups will surely make for complete disappearance. And for TvZ, what nerft would you make? If you nerf mine just a little bit, you can easily get to the point where Tank is just better and we are back in WoL.
I would gladly buff Zerg in some way to deal with mines. But don't nerf the only unit Terran get in HotS.
Everyone ignored it because it's easier to respond to posts with 3 lines and 0 content rather than have an actual discussion where people actually think. You didn't even read my post at all so don't go saying it's not well thought out; read it and then say that. I have it up in spoilers on this very page, I encourage you and others to read and actually respond to it.
Even if the mine is slightly nerfed it won't fall out from use in TvZ given how expendable the unit is compared to the Tank. Widow mines can do monstrous damage and if you lose a chunk, it's not that big a deal, as they're easily replaceable, in fact the only truly "valuable units" in 4M are the Medivacs. This is unlike Tanks, where losing a few was a much bigger deal.
Also the reason the mine is "under-used" in the other two match ups is that Terran and Protoss both have Ranged unit compositions as their core. Stalkers, Immortals, Observers, Colossi, Templar, Tanks, Marines, Medivacs, everything is ranged so Mines can rarely be set up, unlike Zerg units where everything is very short range except for Hydralisks (which are still pretty bad units in ZvT).
I do think that it is poor unit design that the mine has completely replaced the siege tank in every way - it is a better siege tank. And to me that is a bad design decision. Especially in an expansion, where the goal should be to root out redundancy. Added on top of that the fact that zerg has a very hard time getting their 3/3 upgrades and has to fight against a deadly composition which allows for little mistake...
But the worst thing, is that it is nigh on impossible to attack into a Terran production line unless you have an overwhelming advantage.
The removal of the tank also removed a lot of dynamics that were present in ZvT that made it so interesting. I think it removed more than it added...though I guess watching marines split over their burrowed siege tanks is classified as more entertaining.
On August 26 2013 15:10 ReMinD_ wrote: For the time being, they should just nerf Widow Mine. That is one unit that affects TvZ the most while having very little effect on other match-ups.
Sure, why not remove the only new unit Terran has in Hots from all matchups so that we can play 100% WoL.
Nerfing isn't the same as removing.
I made a big post in this thread discussing how bio/mine as a composition works and what zerg has to answer that composition. I put more thought and energy into that post than 90% of the people posting in this thread and everyone completely ignored it.
Sometimes I wonder if people really discuss things in threads or just post randomly without reading.
Putting thought and energy into something doesn't make it worth discussing just because of that. Probably it was not so well thought out since everyone ignored it?
Of course nerfing isn't the same as removing. But since mine is rarely used in TvT and TvP, weaker mine in those matchups will surely make for complete disappearance. And for TvZ, what nerft would you make? If you nerf mine just a little bit, you can easily get to the point where Tank is just better and we are back in WoL.
I would gladly buff Zerg in some way to deal with mines. But don't nerf the only unit Terran get in HotS.
Everyone ignored it because it's easier to respond to posts with 3 lines and 0 content rather than have an actual discussion where people actually think. You didn't even read my post at all so don't go saying it's not well thought out; read it and then say that. I have it up in spoilers on this very page, I encourage you and others to read and actually respond to it.
Even if the mine is slightly nerfed it won't fall out from use in TvZ given how expendable the unit is compared to the Tank. Widow mines can do monstrous damage and if you lose a chunk, it's not that big a deal, as they're easily replaceable, in fact the only truly "valuable units" in 4M are the Medivacs. This is unlike Tanks, where losing a few was a much bigger deal.
Also the reason the mine is "under-used" in the other two match ups is that Terran and Protoss both have Ranged unit compositions as their core. Stalkers, Immortals, Observers, Colossi, Templar, Tanks, Marines, Medivacs, everything is ranged so Mines can rarely be set up, unlike Zerg units where everything is very short range except for Hydralisks (which are still pretty bad units in ZvT).
Look, I agree with most of what you are saying. But I am really against nerfing mine. I'd like to see Viper affecting mines for example and see how it goes on test map (which would be huge btw). That is basically it. I prefer depth and strategy in TvZ (Marine/Tank provided at least this) rather than endless stream of units until 1 side is out of resources. This is just dumb. I think we could agree here. At this point, I think they should just buff Tank in a way it is more viable in TvZ and TvP possibly and not affecting TvT much if there is such a buff.
So, I'm high-diamond Zerg. Meaning, my mechanics are nowhere near Jaedong's or Scarlett's or whatever pro Zerg, nor is my decision making on their level, but I think I have a pretty good grasp of the game and what to do and what not.
I have been inclined and worked really hard to make Roach/Hydra/Viper work in ZvT, and from all the games I've lost, all have been against Masters Terran who just dropped one of my expansions. I simply could not afford to go Mutalisks at any point because of Roach/Hydra+upgrades. And currently, drops are a very potent weapon against the Zerg.
Over the course of several games (I have asked a couple of masters Terran to practice against and asked them to play 4M) and every game, I felt I needed to go Mutas unless I want to invest around 600+ minerals to defend each expansion with stationary defense. I have tried from going triple Evo Chamber while using Roach Hydra and getting all upgrades done to rush to Ultras while surviving with Roach/Hydra, but I always died in the process. I have tried going ultra-greedy fast Hive (as soon as my Lair completes, I drop the Pit and instantly into Hive) to get Ultras out to be able to do something. However, the only time that I stomped my Terran opponent when I actually proxied Ultralisk Cavern on Whirlwind with an Overlord and he didn't see my army coming either.
Now, this short story is a prelude to my biggest problem as Zerg. I cannot clear Mines effectively. Especially not with ling/bling/muta as Marines are usually around them or in front of them and they just stim and run back as soon as I start moving in. I have become really frustrated to the point where I would want the Terran to actually manually activate their mines, remove the splash, anything, because whatever I tried, I seemed to have failed.
Also, Mines have removed almost any potential of harassing. I can't tell you how many games I've lost just because my Mutalisk flock ate mines and that's game-ending there. Now, I should have an Overseer with me, but the whole idea of Mutas is to be fast and mobile and to spread your opponent around.
I was an avid anti-mine speaker on official forums in the beta, and I still am today, I didn't like it from day 1 and I like it even less now. Overseer speed buff won't make any drastic change and Mines will still be very potent if not just the same as they are now.
So, to all the Terran friends, how does the Zerg "stomp" you if you go 4M? I just do not see it working and I absolutely hate the fact that they "promised" more harassment options as Zerg, when we can only do that in ZvP, which we were already good at.
On August 26 2013 16:37 ysnake wrote: So, I'm high-diamond Zerg. Meaning, my mechanics are nowhere near Jaedong's or Scarlett's or whatever pro Zerg, nor is my decision making on their level, but I think I have a pretty good grasp of the game and what to do and what not.
I have been inclined and worked really hard to make Roach/Hydra/Viper work in ZvT, and from all the games I've lost, all have been against Masters Terran who just dropped one of my expansions. I simply could not afford to go Mutalisks at any point because of Roach/Hydra+upgrades. And currently, drops are a very potent weapon against the Zerg.
Over the course of several games (I have asked a couple of masters Terran to practice against and asked them to play 4M) and every game, I felt I needed to go Mutas unless I want to invest around 600+ minerals to defend each expansion with stationary defense. I have tried from going triple Evo Chamber while using Roach Hydra and getting all upgrades done to rush to Ultras while surviving with Roach/Hydra, but I always died in the process. I have tried going ultra-greedy fast Hive (as soon as my Lair completes, I drop the Pit and instantly into Hive) to get Ultras out to be able to do something. However, the only time that I stomped my Terran opponent when I actually proxied Ultralisk Cavern on Whirlwind with an Overlord and he didn't see my army coming either.
Now, this short story is a prelude to my biggest problem as Zerg. I cannot clear Mines effectively. Especially not with ling/bling/muta as Marines are usually around them or in front of them and they just stim and run back as soon as I start moving in. I have become really frustrated to the point where I would want the Terran to actually manually activate their mines, remove the splash, anything, because whatever I tried, I seemed to have failed.
Also, Mines have removed almost any potential of harassing. I can't tell you how many games I've lost just because my Mutalisk flock ate mines and that's game-ending there. Now, I should have an Overseer with me, but the whole idea of Mutas is to be fast and mobile and to spread your opponent around.
I was an avid anti-mine speaker on official forums in the beta, and I still am today, I didn't like it from day 1 and I like it even less now. Overseer speed buff won't make any drastic change and Mines will still be very potent if not just the same as they are now.
So, to all the Terran friends, how does the Zerg "stomp" you if you go 4M? I just do not see it working and I absolutely hate the fact that they "promised" more harassment options as Zerg, when we can only do that in ZvP, which we were already good at.
I also hate they "promised" mech being viable, guess what happend? You got Viper that was supposed to counter large marine packs.. Well, turns out to be the ultimate anti-mech weapon and it is not even used against bio. LOL
On August 26 2013 16:05 Qwyn wrote: I do think that it is poor unit design that the mine has completely replaced the siege tank in every way - it is a better siege tank. And to me that is a bad design decision. Especially in an expansion, where the goal should be to root out redundancy. Added on top of that the fact that zerg has a very hard time getting their 3/3 upgrades and has to fight against a deadly composition which allows for little mistake...
But the worst thing, is that it is nigh on impossible to attack into a Terran production line unless you have an overwhelming advantage.
The removal of the tank also removed a lot of dynamics that were present in ZvT that made it so interesting. I think it removed more than it added...though I guess watching marines split over their burrowed siege tanks is classified as more entertaining.
There is still the advantage of 13 range for Tanks, even though Widow Mines are quite a bit more mobile.
I can see your point about TvZ (except for the fact that it isn't impossible to kill Widow Mines at production), but I've seen a pretty interesting TvT style with Mine/Tank plus some Vikings. They have surprisingly interesting synergy, especially since it leads to some pretty big minefields. Come to think of it, it might work in TvZ. Maybe TvP if Widow Mines are good enough against Zealots.
On August 26 2013 15:52 Incognoto wrote: This is my analysis of bio/mine, feel free to comment it with rational arguments. Most of what I've said is based off of the first two games in Bomber vs JD in WCS finals where I feel that JD didn't really make any major mistakes.
On August 26 2013 04:41 Incognoto wrote: Let's face it, TvZ is slanted in Terran's favor atm. Even DK saw this and honestly just an overseer buff isn't going to cut it. However it's interesting because the decision to buff the Overseer is basically admitting that its Terran's cloaked units which are the problem, ie its the widow mines that are the problem.
If T & Z both don't make mistakes during the game, the T comes out ahead simply because of how incredibly cost-efficient bio/mine is compared to Marine/Tank.
In the Marine/Tank composition, Siege Tanks couldn't shoot at Mutalisks, so Mutalisks were a key unit in TvZ mid-game. Their role was to harass Terran's base, force Turrets, pick off valuable gas units such as Medivacs and Tanks and defend against drops. If the Medivac and Siege Tank numbers were lowered enough, then Marines were rendered inefficient against Ling/Bane. That's why Mutal/Ling/Bling was one of the go-to compositions in mid-game WoL TvZ (at least before Queen buff and then infestors).
Fast-forward to Hots. Mines are insanely cheap, can be mass-produced, are expendable and they take out Mutalisk, which is why bio/mine is stronger than Marine/Tank ever was. Bio/Mine effectively shuts down mutalisks. Mines are expendable so while killing them is nice it doesn't mean that Terran will get behind because of it (unlike Tanks in Marine/Tank). Mines are also cloaked and can bring an entire mutalisk cloud into the orange with a single hit. This means that proper mine and turret placement almost completely nullifies Mutalisk harass, even though Mutalisks are now faster and can regenerate health. This means that now Mutalisks are only have two "jobs" which is picking off medivacs and defending against drops. Zerg players also can't afford to not make Mutalisks in favor of something else otherwise drops can become very, very dangerous. Even now, Mutalisks have a hard time actually picking off Medivacs since Medivacs are always close to Marines and there's always the possibility of a hidden mine somewhere so it becomes pretty difficult for Zerg to kill of key units in the mid-game. Those key units are Medivacs, Marines and Mines being so incredibly expendable.
The only way to remain cost-efficient against Terran as Zerg is to be on 4 saturated bases to Terran's 3. That's when it becomes possible to have enough gas income to get enough banelings to fight evenly... to an extent. It's incredibly difficult to fight efficiently against bio/mine with muta/ling/bane. If Zerg loses their 4th it's over, so an intelligent Terran will push towards the Zerg's 4th so as to shut it down. If they can do that, then Zerg can't afford banelings to fight evenly and they can't afford to tech to Hive for the 3-3 tech, which leads me to my next point.
Terran has easier access to 3-3 compared to Zerg. Once Terran has finished 2-2 they can immediately start 3-3. Zerg simply can't do that. They have to make sure they have both an infestation pit and a hive finished before they can start 3-3. That's the equivalent of a 250 gas and 150 second upgrade to be allowed to start 3-3.
This is why TvZ is Terran favored at the moment. I think that even if the Overseer buff isn't necessarily stupid, it might be a better idea to do two things: Give Zerg quicker access to 3-3. Perhaps make 3-3 available with infestation pit, or perhaps nothing at all. Banelings should also be more efficient. I can't give precise numbers, but I would say that only 1 out of 3 banelings ever actually connects in professional TvZ.
Nice post. I was thinking about mines, and another problem with the mines is that the friendly fire it does.. doesn't take out the marines while a whole bunch of lings get exploded due to the hitpoint difference. So in someways the mines can be worked against the T player but rarely does it pose as a problem because you need several to kill a group of marines with FF.
So I wonder if mines did 30 splash damage instead so they dont instantly take out a group of lings, or banelings for that matter so that half the z army just doesn't evaporate from a few widow mines going off. This could give some T players an incentive to get tanks to kill off the banelings in one shot. So a give and take I suppose if one goes for MMMM instead of MMM/tank..
Its most likely true that Widowmines are a bit too strong in tvz but it feels a bit like BL Infestor in WOL. It might be op but what other options do Terrans have? Tanks are just bad besides some early game defenses and things like Mech, Ravens or Hellbats are not very viable right now.
The role that Tanks play nowadays, at least in TvZ, is to ensure that Terran can't die to ground-based all-ins, specifically Roach/bane/Ling all-ins. At that role they do quite well, their range and their sustained DPS really help Terrans defend against all-ins. However once Terran starts moving out on the map, a good Terran doesn't need Tanks anymore. In Bomber vs JD, Bomber blindly made 3 or 4 Tanks and set them up so as JD couldn't really all-in. Once he got his production, upgrades and eco running, he actually just sacked the tanks and went pure bio/mine. One of the big reasons Terran prefers using Mines rather than Tanks is that Tanks are so expensive that losing them puts Terran behind. Mines can do a Tank's job without the negative side that losing them is bad.
Do Tanks need a buff? Maybe. Do Mines need a nerf? Maybe. Does Zerg need a mid-game buff? Maybe. The problems are there, what are the proper solutions?
On August 26 2013 15:10 ReMinD_ wrote: For the time being, they should just nerf Widow Mine. That is one unit that affects TvZ the most while having very little effect on other match-ups.
Sure, why not remove the only new unit Terran has in Hots from all matchups so that we can play 100% WoL.
Lets not pretend mines aren't at least a little bit too good. Just reducing the attack radius by a bit would possibly be sufficient.
The problem isnt that they are "a little too good" but rather that their design lacks in synergy with the rest of the units.
After the rather one-sided games of Bomber vs Jaedong yesterday I am feeling that Zerg are doing the wrong thing. They should not try to "beat the Terran Marine-Widow Mine army with constant production" in a direct fight but rather focus fully on killing their production instead. Since there is a constant stream of Marines and Mines coming across the board you cant do this with a "run there and kill it" type of attack and you need flying units to do it. This does NOT mean Mutalisks but rather Overlord drops. Sure the Terran could have some mines at home, but if you are smart enough to make a decently big attack AND start early enough to do it you shouldnt get into really seriously big trouble. Obviously you need decent defense at home to be reasonably safe against any counter harrassment and this means Spine and Spore Crawlers.
The core point is that Terrans want to kill hatcheries. Why? Because that limits production. Does killing the army limit the Terran production? No!
On August 26 2013 15:10 ReMinD_ wrote: For the time being, they should just nerf Widow Mine. That is one unit that affects TvZ the most while having very little effect on other match-ups.
Sure, why not remove the only new unit Terran has in Hots from all matchups so that we can play 100% WoL.
Lets not pretend mines aren't at least a little bit too good. Just reducing the attack radius by a bit would possibly be sufficient.
The problem isnt that they are "a little too good" but rather that their design lacks in synergy with the rest of the units.
After the rather one-sided games of Bomber vs Jaedong yesterday I am feeling that Zerg are doing the wrong thing. They should not try to "beat the Terran Marine-Widow Mine army with constant production" in a direct fight but rather focus fully on killing their production instead. Since there is a constant stream of Marines and Mines coming across the board you cant do this with a "run there and kill it" type of attack and you need flying units to do it. This does NOT mean Mutalisks but rather Overlord drops. Sure the Terran could have some mines at home, but if you are smart enough to make a decently big attack AND start early enough to do it you shouldnt get into really seriously big trouble. Obviously you need decent defense at home to be reasonably safe against any counter harrassment and this means Spine and Spore Crawlers.
The core point is that Terrans want to kill hatcheries. Why? Because that limits production. Does killing the army limit the Terran production? No!
On August 26 2013 15:10 ReMinD_ wrote: For the time being, they should just nerf Widow Mine. That is one unit that affects TvZ the most while having very little effect on other match-ups.
Sure, why not remove the only new unit Terran has in Hots from all matchups so that we can play 100% WoL.
Lets not pretend mines aren't at least a little bit too good. Just reducing the attack radius by a bit would possibly be sufficient.
The problem isnt that they are "a little too good" but rather that their design lacks in synergy with the rest of the units.
After the rather one-sided games of Bomber vs Jaedong yesterday I am feeling that Zerg are doing the wrong thing. They should not try to "beat the Terran Marine-Widow Mine army with constant production" in a direct fight but rather focus fully on killing their production instead. Since there is a constant stream of Marines and Mines coming across the board you cant do this with a "run there and kill it" type of attack and you need flying units to do it. This does NOT mean Mutalisks but rather Overlord drops. Sure the Terran could have some mines at home, but if you are smart enough to make a decently big attack AND start early enough to do it you shouldnt get into really seriously big trouble. Obviously you need decent defense at home to be reasonably safe against any counter harrassment and this means Spine and Spore Crawlers.
The core point is that Terrans want to kill hatcheries. Why? Because that limits production. Does killing the army limit the Terran production? No!
Overlord drops? That's gimmicky and preposterous. What exactly do you want to drop? 4 Roaches? 4 Hydra? 8 lings? 4 Banelings? 1 Ultra?
Roaches don't have the dps to be worth dropping, they're tanky units. Marines, Zealots and Marauders all do much more damage for the numbers can be dropped (4+warpin, 8 and 4 respectively). Hydralisks are WAY too expensive to be worth dropping and drop like flies if they don't have something to tank damage for them. There's a reason you don't really see Hydra in ZvT. 8 Lings are way too fragile, 16 lings as well. They might get a tech lab or some SCVs but they'll never be as good as Marines, Zealots or Marauders because those units are either ranged or are resilient enough to do damage regardless. Also medivacs heal, warp prisms warp in massive amounts of units Banelings? They do damage once, not sustained damage. If you let one medivac full of Marines go at it unhindered, they'll do MASSIVE damage. Banelings do good damage but it's all in burst, they can't do nearly as much as Marines. They're also expensive gas units.
Doom drops? It gets scouted and there goes your plan.
Nydus? A couple of SCVs and good vision completely nullify Nydus.
Basically Zerg can't drop for crap; nor should they be able to. Their strength lies in masses of units (unlike real drops which use small amounts of cost-efficient units) and the ability to drone quickly. By design they can't use drops.
So, no, that isn't an option either. Muta/Ling/bling is currently the oly way to play ZvT mid-game without being completely picked apart by Terran drops. If mines didn't completely shut down Mutalisk harass then you might have something to work with with your idea.
On August 26 2013 18:18 ysnake wrote: How can I get to Terran's production buildings?
Read.
On August 26 2013 18:06 Rabiator wrote: This does NOT mean Mutalisks but rather Overlord drops. Sure the Terran could have some mines at home, but if you are smart enough to make a decently big attack AND start early enough to do it you shouldnt get into really seriously big trouble. Obviously you need decent defense at home to be reasonably safe against any counter harrassment and this means Spine and Spore Crawlers.
Everytime the Zergs lose large numbers of their units it's because X unit is imba. Banshee opening, ERHMERGERD IT'S SO HARD QQ; Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Thor drop opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran is too efficient, Q_Q, Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Bunker rush opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran has too many options!!! Nerf to the face...
FACT: Every unit in the Terran arsenal has some form of AoE OR Burst damage except Viking, reaper, banshee, medivac and SCV...
Terran's only ground-to-ground static defense building is a 550 mineral, 150g and 550 sec to build monster. And Zerg get to build static defenses that can move.
To build 12 marauders in a cycle, Terran have to systematically build and arrange a dozen buildings and their attachments while losing income for Every SCV not mining. The same Zerg just has to remember their Spawn larvae macro timings and not lose their roach warren.
A Terran has a flying unit which has a spell that paints a target a bright red for 3 sec before it goes off doing 100 AoE. Meanwhile Zergs have a unit which has a spell that fires a projectile that stops all movement while doing 30 dmg which can be reapplied for as long as there are infestors to Fungal.
On August 26 2013 18:06 Rabiator wrote: This does NOT mean Mutalisks but rather Overlord drops. Sure the Terran could have some mines at home, but if you are smart enough to make a decently big attack AND start early enough to do it you shouldnt get into really seriously big trouble. Obviously you need decent defense at home to be reasonably safe against any counter harrassment and this means Spine and Spore Crawlers.
I thought by now you know that Zerg does not have any Tier 1 or Tier 2 cost-efficient units unlike Terran. And the post above me covered it why Zerg cannot drop. They just can't.
On August 26 2013 18:18 ysnake wrote: How can I get to Terran's production buildings?
Read.
On August 26 2013 18:06 Rabiator wrote: This does NOT mean Mutalisks but rather Overlord drops. Sure the Terran could have some mines at home, but if you are smart enough to make a decently big attack AND start early enough to do it you shouldnt get into really seriously big trouble. Obviously you need decent defense at home to be reasonably safe against any counter harrassment and this means Spine and Spore Crawlers.
I thought by now you know that Zerg does not have any Tier 1 or Tier 2 cost-efficient units unlike Terran. And the post above me covered it why Zerg cannot drop. They just can't.
I'm not saying it's possible. I wasn't the one who posted it, if that's what you're thinking.
On August 26 2013 18:06 Rabiator wrote: This does NOT mean Mutalisks but rather Overlord drops. Sure the Terran could have some mines at home, but if you are smart enough to make a decently big attack AND start early enough to do it you shouldnt get into really seriously big trouble. Obviously you need decent defense at home to be reasonably safe against any counter harrassment and this means Spine and Spore Crawlers.
That's just not true. If you want to defend against drops with just static D you're in for a nasty surprise. You just can't really do it. Medivacs heal and there will always be ONE angle where you can attack in relatively impunity. You really need units to effectively deal with drops and Mutalisks are the only unit mobile enough to do so. Lings are fast but they don't fly like Medivacs do.
Also what does a "decently big attack" mean? Attack Terran's ramp? Unless you're going all-in or you're really ahead you're never going to trade effectively by attacking Terran's front wall. Not against the range advantage Terran has.
On August 26 2013 18:18 ysnake wrote: How can I get to Terran's production buildings?
Read.
On August 26 2013 18:06 Rabiator wrote: This does NOT mean Mutalisks but rather Overlord drops. Sure the Terran could have some mines at home, but if you are smart enough to make a decently big attack AND start early enough to do it you shouldnt get into really seriously big trouble. Obviously you need decent defense at home to be reasonably safe against any counter harrassment and this means Spine and Spore Crawlers.
That's just not true. If you want to defend against drops with just static D you're in for a nasty surprise. You just can't really do it. Medivacs heal and there will always be ONE angle where you can attack in relatively impunity. You really need units to effectively deal with drops and Mutalisks are the only unit mobile enough to do so. Lings are fast but they don't fly like Medivacs do.
Also what does a "decently big attack" mean? Attack Terran's ramp? Unless you're going all-in or you're really ahead you're never going to trade effectively by attacking Terran's front wall. Not against the range advantage Terran has.
On August 26 2013 18:18 ysnake wrote: How can I get to Terran's production buildings?
Read.
On August 26 2013 18:06 Rabiator wrote: This does NOT mean Mutalisks but rather Overlord drops. Sure the Terran could have some mines at home, but if you are smart enough to make a decently big attack AND start early enough to do it you shouldnt get into really seriously big trouble. Obviously you need decent defense at home to be reasonably safe against any counter harrassment and this means Spine and Spore Crawlers.
That's just not true. If you want to defend against drops with just static D you're in for a nasty surprise. You just can't really do it. Medivacs heal and there will always be ONE angle where you can attack in relatively impunity. You really need units to effectively deal with drops and Mutalisks are the only unit mobile enough to do so. Lings are fast but they don't fly like Medivacs do.
Also what does a "decently big attack" mean? Attack Terran's ramp? Unless you're going all-in or you're really ahead you're never going to trade effectively by attacking Terran's front wall. Not against the range advantage Terran has.
What you're describing just isn't viable.
Guys, it's not my idea. ._.
Well, let's say I'm trying to beat down an idea that's not yours then. :p heheh
I love these discussions actually, just discussing RTS is almost as fun as playing it. ^^
I guess widow mines were intended to tank for siege tanks in mech also? I suppose you don't see that so much because they compete with tanks for gas. If widow mines only costed minerals but were a bit weaker maybe they could work out, but then they would compete with hellions I suppose.
On August 26 2013 19:40 Grumbels wrote: I guess widow mines were intended to tank for siege tanks in mech also? I suppose you don't see that so much because they compete with tanks for gas. If widow mines only costed minerals but were a bit weaker maybe they could work out, but then they would compete with hellions I suppose.
I think the main ideas were to give Terran a little easier time to shut down counter attacks with mechplay and to give Mech a cheaper goto antiair unit. Because though Thors are quite a strong Antiair unit, it's very hard productionwise to get a good count of them or to reproduce enough antiair once they have been traded with ground units.
On August 26 2013 18:25 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Everytime the Zergs lose large numbers of their units it's because X unit is imba. Banshee opening, ERHMERGERD IT'S SO HARD QQ; Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Thor drop opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran is too efficient, Q_Q, Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Bunker rush opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran has too many options!!! Nerf to the face...
Are you trying to say Terran's were never too powerful, and your proof is that they have been repeatedly nerfed?
On August 26 2013 18:25 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Everytime the Zergs lose large numbers of their units it's because X unit is imba. Banshee opening, ERHMERGERD IT'S SO HARD QQ; Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Thor drop opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran is too efficient, Q_Q, Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Bunker rush opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran has too many options!!! Nerf to the face...
Are you trying to say Terran's were never too powerful, and your proof is that they have been repeatedly nerfed?
Yes. SC2 has been whittled down to bone and the attendances show. Don't deny the truth. In pandering to a specific player group, SC2 numbers did not grow as expected. I have seen too many games fail because developers pandered to the loudest group (Oh Master of Magic! I knew thee well!!)
On August 26 2013 18:25 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Everytime the Zergs lose large numbers of their units it's because X unit is imba. Banshee opening, ERHMERGERD IT'S SO HARD QQ; Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Thor drop opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran is too efficient, Q_Q, Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Bunker rush opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran has too many options!!! Nerf to the face...
Are you trying to say Terran's were never too powerful, and your proof is that they have been repeatedly nerfed?
Yes.
Okay. You should realize that makes you incredibly hard to take seriously.
On August 26 2013 18:25 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Everytime the Zergs lose large numbers of their units it's because X unit is imba. Banshee opening, ERHMERGERD IT'S SO HARD QQ; Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Thor drop opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran is too efficient, Q_Q, Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Bunker rush opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran has too many options!!! Nerf to the face...
Are you trying to say Terran's were never too powerful, and your proof is that they have been repeatedly nerfed?
Yes. SC2 has been whittled down to bone and the attendances show. Don't deny the truth. In pandering to a specific player group, SC2 numbers did not grow as expected. I have seen too many games fail because developers pandered to the loudest group (Oh Master of Magic! I knew thee well!!)
1) Your logic is terrible.
2) If Blizzard were pandering to the loudest crowd: We wouldn't have Warp Gate We wouldn't have the Colossus We wouldn't have force field Siege Tanks would be awesome Carriers would build a lot faster than 90 seconds Gateway units would be much more formitable in straight-up fights
3) Why the hell am i coming in and responding to your stupid post?
On August 26 2013 18:25 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Everytime the Zergs lose large numbers of their units it's because X unit is imba. Banshee opening, ERHMERGERD IT'S SO HARD QQ; Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Thor drop opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran is too efficient, Q_Q, Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Bunker rush opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran has too many options!!! Nerf to the face...
Are you trying to say Terran's were never too powerful, and your proof is that they have been repeatedly nerfed?
Yes. SC2 has been whittled down to bone and the attendances show. Don't deny the truth. In pandering to a specific player group, SC2 numbers did not grow as expected. I have seen too many games fail because developers pandered to the loudest group (Oh Master of Magic! I knew thee well!!)
1) Your logic is terrible.
2) If Blizzard were pandering to the loudest crowd: We wouldn't have Warp Gate We wouldn't have the Colossus We wouldn't have force field Siege Tanks would be awesome Carriers would build a lot faster than 90 seconds Gateway units would be much more formitable in straight-up fights
3) Why the hell am i coming in and responding to your stupid post?
answer to 3): so that his fantasizing doesn't become the loudest group.
I just wish Tanks got improved so that it would be actually be possible to play mech outside of TvT. I gladly accept nerfs to widow mines and medivacs if necessary.
If Blizzard are afraid of Tanks being too strong in early timing attacks, just keep the base damage the same and increase the effect of tank damage upgrades.
On August 26 2013 18:25 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Everytime the Zergs lose large numbers of their units it's because X unit is imba. Banshee opening, ERHMERGERD IT'S SO HARD QQ; Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Thor drop opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran is too efficient, Q_Q, Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Bunker rush opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran has too many options!!! Nerf to the face...
Are you trying to say Terran's were never too powerful, and your proof is that they have been repeatedly nerfed?
Yes. SC2 has been whittled down to bone and the attendances show. Don't deny the truth. In pandering to a specific player group, SC2 numbers did not grow as expected. I have seen too many games fail because developers pandered to the loudest group (Oh Master of Magic! I knew thee well!!)
1) Your logic is terrible.
2) If Blizzard were pandering to the loudest crowd: We wouldn't have Warp Gate We wouldn't have the Colossus We wouldn't have force field Siege Tanks would be awesome Carriers would build a lot faster than 90 seconds Gateway units would be much more formitable in straight-up fights
3) Why the hell am i coming in and responding to your stupid post?
I know ppl will tear me apart by saying this... even after many years passes by, I STILL WANT MY REAVER INSTEAD OF COLOSSUS!!! My biggest reason of race switch :p
On August 26 2013 18:25 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Everytime the Zergs lose large numbers of their units it's because X unit is imba. Banshee opening, ERHMERGERD IT'S SO HARD QQ; Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Thor drop opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran is too efficient, Q_Q, Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Bunker rush opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran has too many options!!! Nerf to the face...
Are you trying to say Terran's were never too powerful, and your proof is that they have been repeatedly nerfed?
Yes. SC2 has been whittled down to bone and the attendances show. Don't deny the truth. In pandering to a specific player group, SC2 numbers did not grow as expected. I have seen too many games fail because developers pandered to the loudest group (Oh Master of Magic! I knew thee well!!)
1) Your logic is terrible.
2) If Blizzard were pandering to the loudest crowd: We wouldn't have Warp Gate We wouldn't have the Colossus We wouldn't have force field Siege Tanks would be awesome Carriers would build a lot faster than 90 seconds Gateway units would be much more formitable in straight-up fights
3) Why the hell am i coming in and responding to your stupid post?
I know ppl will tear me apart by saying this... even after many years passes by, I STILL WANT MY REAVER INSTEAD OF COLOSSUS!!! My biggest reason of race switch :p
so I personally want ALL of what you have listed which are'not to be happened
What I listed are the core bits of the mantra that has proceeded around SC2 since WoL was released.
But Blizzard in their mighty knowledge refuses to give the community what they ask for, instead, we will play the game that Blizzard has designed for us! Because we don't know what we want!
BTW I hate that game design logic, it's fucking terrible and it makes for bad games: see EQ, Diablo 3, SC2, and countless other games where the design team thinks they know better than their community.
I am not trying to undermine the position of lead designer, I'm happy to have people like DK trying their best to make the game balanced, but too many of them, including the team in charge of SC2 forget the fact that a game needs to be FUN before it's balanced, and SC2 HotS is turning out to be not very fun at all...
On August 27 2013 21:38 SsDrKosS wrote: I know ppl will tear me apart by saying this... even after many years passes by, I STILL WANT MY REAVER INSTEAD OF COLOSSUS!!! My biggest reason of race switch :p
On August 27 2013 21:38 SsDrKosS wrote: I know ppl will tear me apart by saying this... even after many years passes by, I STILL WANT MY REAVER INSTEAD OF COLOSSUS!!! My biggest reason of race switch :p
On August 27 2013 21:47 SsDrKosS wrote: Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Double standards much?
I was just saying it you know. btw wm and reaver is very different apart from the fact that they does tons of dmg per shot wm is just too imba compare to reaver (reaver is expensive, higher tech/no reactor/burrow attack, etc )
I wish they'd do the changes they discussed on Inside the Game. Zerg 3-3 on lair tech would open so many new option and/or making the individual nydus worms cheaper would also be a great great option to get this fun mechanic more into the game.
These would be way more interesting than just increasing the Ultralisks health further, which already is a really really strong unit, in my opinion.
It actually blows my mind that they haven't made any changes to the Nydus since release. It's been concluded so many times that the investment for this is too much.
But the game is pretty fine so It's not like this is in a hurry to get here for me. I just hope they make the right changes!
On August 27 2013 21:38 SsDrKosS wrote: I know ppl will tear me apart by saying this... even after many years passes by, I STILL WANT MY REAVER INSTEAD OF COLOSSUS!!! My biggest reason of race switch :p
so I personally want ALL of what you have listed which are'not to be happened
I want my Reaver back because it's cool, but when another race has a strong AoE unit forcing caution/micro from the opponent:
On August 27 2013 21:47 SsDrKosS wrote: Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Double standards much?
I was just saying it you know. btw wm and reaver is very different apart from the fact that they does tons of dmg per shot wm is just too imba compare to reaver (reaver is expensive, higher tech/no reactor/burrow attack, etc )
On August 27 2013 21:38 SsDrKosS wrote: I know ppl will tear me apart by saying this... even after many years passes by, I STILL WANT MY REAVER INSTEAD OF COLOSSUS!!! My biggest reason of race switch :p
so I personally want ALL of what you have listed which are'not to be happened
I want my Reaver back because it's cool, but when another race has a strong AoE unit forcing caution/micro from the opponent:
On August 27 2013 21:47 SsDrKosS wrote: Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Double standards much?
I was just saying it you know. btw wm and reaver is very different apart from the fact that they does tons of dmg per shot wm is just too imba compare to reaver (reaver is expensive, higher tech/no reactor/burrow attack, etc )
Actually they do come out the same time colossus do, with the same range. WM is only imba when you STAY in range of a BURROWED WM. Not with the reaver. With 10 rounds of 125 AOE dmg and 60 cooldown (approximately 5s in SC2 time), drop micro potential with a shuttle, you are right, you can't compare WM with a reaver.
AKA Reaver/sentry would break the game so so hard it wouldn't be funny.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Zh5jhJ5.png)
