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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On August 26 2013 15:39 Everlong wrote: Sure, why not remove the only new unit Terran has in Hots from all matchups so that we can play 100% WoL. There is no matchup that revolves entirely around a HOTS unit other than ZvT and the Widow mine. Making it more reasonable is not making it 100% WOL | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On August 26 2013 04:41 Incognoto wrote: Let's face it, TvZ is slanted in Terran's favor atm. Even DK saw this and honestly just an overseer buff isn't going to cut it. However it's interesting because the decision to buff the Overseer is basically admitting that its Terran's cloaked units which are the problem, ie its the widow mines that are the problem. If T & Z both don't make mistakes during the game, the T comes out ahead simply because of how incredibly cost-efficient bio/mine is compared to Marine/Tank. In the Marine/Tank composition, Siege Tanks couldn't shoot at Mutalisks, so Mutalisks were a key unit in TvZ mid-game. Their role was to harass Terran's base, force Turrets, pick off valuable gas units such as Medivacs and Tanks and defend against drops. If the Medivac and Siege Tank numbers were lowered enough, then Marines were rendered inefficient against Ling/Bane. That's why Mutal/Ling/Bling was one of the go-to compositions in mid-game WoL TvZ (at least before Queen buff and then infestors). Fast-forward to Hots. Mines are insanely cheap, can be mass-produced, are expendable and they take out Mutalisk, which is why bio/mine is stronger than Marine/Tank ever was. Bio/Mine effectively shuts down mutalisks. Mines are expendable so while killing them is nice it doesn't mean that Terran will get behind because of it (unlike Tanks in Marine/Tank). Mines are also cloaked and can bring an entire mutalisk cloud into the orange with a single hit. This means that proper mine and turret placement almost completely nullifies Mutalisk harass, even though Mutalisks are now faster and can regenerate health. This means that now Mutalisks are only have two "jobs" which is picking off medivacs and defending against drops. Zerg players also can't afford to not make Mutalisks in favor of something else otherwise drops can become very, very dangerous. Even now, Mutalisks have a hard time actually picking off Medivacs since Medivacs are always close to Marines and there's always the possibility of a hidden mine somewhere so it becomes pretty difficult for Zerg to kill of key units in the mid-game. Those key units are Medivacs, Marines and Mines being so incredibly expendable. The only way to remain cost-efficient against Terran as Zerg is to be on 4 saturated bases to Terran's 3. That's when it becomes possible to have enough gas income to get enough banelings to fight evenly... to an extent. It's incredibly difficult to fight efficiently against bio/mine with muta/ling/bane. If Zerg loses their 4th it's over, so an intelligent Terran will push towards the Zerg's 4th so as to shut it down. If they can do that, then Zerg can't afford banelings to fight evenly and they can't afford to tech to Hive for the 3-3 tech, which leads me to my next point. Terran has easier access to 3-3 compared to Zerg. Once Terran has finished 2-2 they can immediately start 3-3. Zerg simply can't do that. They have to make sure they have both an infestation pit and a hive finished before they can start 3-3. That's the equivalent of a 250 gas and 150 second upgrade to be allowed to start 3-3. This is why TvZ is Terran favored at the moment. I think that even if the Overseer buff isn't necessarily stupid, it might be a better idea to do two things: Give Zerg quicker access to 3-3. Perhaps make 3-3 available with infestation pit, or perhaps nothing at all. Banelings should also be more efficient. I can't give precise numbers, but I would say that only 1 out of 3 banelings ever actually connects in professional TvZ. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On August 26 2013 15:46 Incognoto wrote: Nerfing isn't the same as removing. I made a big post in this thread discussing how bio/mine as a composition works and what zerg has to answer that composition. I put more thought and energy into that post than 90% of the people posting in this thread and everyone completely ignored it. Sometimes I wonder if people really discuss things in threads or just post randomly without reading. Putting thought and energy into something doesn't make it worth discussing just because of that. Probably it was not so well thought out since everyone ignored it? Of course nerfing isn't the same as removing. But since mine is rarely used in TvT and TvP, weaker mine in those matchups will surely make for complete disappearance. And for TvZ, what nerft would you make? If you nerf mine just a little bit, you can easily get to the point where Tank is just better and we are back in WoL. I would gladly buff Zerg in some way to deal with mines. But don't nerf the only unit Terran get in HotS. | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On August 26 2013 15:52 Incognoto wrote: This is my analysis of bio/mine, feel free to comment it with rational arguments. Most of what I've said is based off of the first two games in Bomber vs JD in WCS finals where I feel that JD didn't really make any major mistakes. + Show Spoiler + On August 26 2013 04:41 Incognoto wrote: Let's face it, TvZ is slanted in Terran's favor atm. Even DK saw this and honestly just an overseer buff isn't going to cut it. However it's interesting because the decision to buff the Overseer is basically admitting that its Terran's cloaked units which are the problem, ie its the widow mines that are the problem. If T & Z both don't make mistakes during the game, the T comes out ahead simply because of how incredibly cost-efficient bio/mine is compared to Marine/Tank. In the Marine/Tank composition, Siege Tanks couldn't shoot at Mutalisks, so Mutalisks were a key unit in TvZ mid-game. Their role was to harass Terran's base, force Turrets, pick off valuable gas units such as Medivacs and Tanks and defend against drops. If the Medivac and Siege Tank numbers were lowered enough, then Marines were rendered inefficient against Ling/Bane. That's why Mutal/Ling/Bling was one of the go-to compositions in mid-game WoL TvZ (at least before Queen buff and then infestors). Fast-forward to Hots. Mines are insanely cheap, can be mass-produced, are expendable and they take out Mutalisk, which is why bio/mine is stronger than Marine/Tank ever was. Bio/Mine effectively shuts down mutalisks. Mines are expendable so while killing them is nice it doesn't mean that Terran will get behind because of it (unlike Tanks in Marine/Tank). Mines are also cloaked and can bring an entire mutalisk cloud into the orange with a single hit. This means that proper mine and turret placement almost completely nullifies Mutalisk harass, even though Mutalisks are now faster and can regenerate health. This means that now Mutalisks are only have two "jobs" which is picking off medivacs and defending against drops. Zerg players also can't afford to not make Mutalisks in favor of something else otherwise drops can become very, very dangerous. Even now, Mutalisks have a hard time actually picking off Medivacs since Medivacs are always close to Marines and there's always the possibility of a hidden mine somewhere so it becomes pretty difficult for Zerg to kill of key units in the mid-game. Those key units are Medivacs, Marines and Mines being so incredibly expendable. The only way to remain cost-efficient against Terran as Zerg is to be on 4 saturated bases to Terran's 3. That's when it becomes possible to have enough gas income to get enough banelings to fight evenly... to an extent. It's incredibly difficult to fight efficiently against bio/mine with muta/ling/bane. If Zerg loses their 4th it's over, so an intelligent Terran will push towards the Zerg's 4th so as to shut it down. If they can do that, then Zerg can't afford banelings to fight evenly and they can't afford to tech to Hive for the 3-3 tech, which leads me to my next point. Terran has easier access to 3-3 compared to Zerg. Once Terran has finished 2-2 they can immediately start 3-3. Zerg simply can't do that. They have to make sure they have both an infestation pit and a hive finished before they can start 3-3. That's the equivalent of a 250 gas and 150 second upgrade to be allowed to start 3-3. This is why TvZ is Terran favored at the moment. I think that even if the Overseer buff isn't necessarily stupid, it might be a better idea to do two things: Give Zerg quicker access to 3-3. Perhaps make 3-3 available with infestation pit, or perhaps nothing at all. Banelings should also be more efficient. I can't give precise numbers, but I would say that only 1 out of 3 banelings ever actually connects in professional TvZ. I read this, and while I don't think you're wrong about anything, I think 3-3 is not the issue at all. The issue is being forced into ling/bling/muta because of the threat of drops, and the impossibility of trading favorably with ling/bling/muta against 4M. There are a lot of reasons why this is the case, but really T has two units that are simply cost-effective vs anything that needs to get into their range to attack - which is every Zerg unit sans Hydralisk and Broodlord. Broodlord is terrifyingly hard to tech to and has serious problems itself, and the Hydralisk is never going to be cost effective against anything. Simply put, Zerg has no options in ZvT past the 10 minute mark. The game is always about surviving 4M with ling/bling/muta, and Zergs can only get so good at that. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On August 26 2013 15:58 Everlong wrote: Putting thought and energy into something doesn't make it worth discussing just because of that. Probably it was not so well thought out since everyone ignored it? Of course nerfing isn't the same as removing. But since mine is rarely used in TvT and TvP, weaker mine in those matchups will surely make for complete disappearance. And for TvZ, what nerft would you make? If you nerf mine just a little bit, you can easily get to the point where Tank is just better and we are back in WoL. I would gladly buff Zerg in some way to deal with mines. But don't nerf the only unit Terran get in HotS. Everyone ignored it because it's easier to respond to posts with 3 lines and 0 content rather than have an actual discussion where people actually think. You didn't even read my post at all so don't go saying it's not well thought out; read it and then say that. I have it up in spoilers on this very page, I encourage you and others to read and actually respond to it. Even if the mine is slightly nerfed it won't fall out from use in TvZ given how expendable the unit is compared to the Tank. Widow mines can do monstrous damage and if you lose a chunk, it's not that big a deal, as they're easily replaceable, in fact the only truly "valuable units" in 4M are the Medivacs. This is unlike Tanks, where losing a few was a much bigger deal. Also the reason the mine is "under-used" in the other two match ups is that Terran and Protoss both have Ranged unit compositions as their core. Stalkers, Immortals, Observers, Colossi, Templar, Tanks, Marines, Medivacs, everything is ranged so Mines can rarely be set up, unlike Zerg units where everything is very short range except for Hydralisks (which are still pretty bad units in ZvT). | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
But the worst thing, is that it is nigh on impossible to attack into a Terran production line unless you have an overwhelming advantage. The removal of the tank also removed a lot of dynamics that were present in ZvT that made it so interesting. I think it removed more than it added...though I guess watching marines split over their burrowed siege tanks is classified as more entertaining. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On August 26 2013 16:04 Incognoto wrote: Everyone ignored it because it's easier to respond to posts with 3 lines and 0 content rather than have an actual discussion where people actually think. You didn't even read my post at all so don't go saying it's not well thought out; read it and then say that. I have it up in spoilers on this very page, I encourage you and others to read and actually respond to it. Even if the mine is slightly nerfed it won't fall out from use in TvZ given how expendable the unit is compared to the Tank. Widow mines can do monstrous damage and if you lose a chunk, it's not that big a deal, as they're easily replaceable, in fact the only truly "valuable units" in 4M are the Medivacs. This is unlike Tanks, where losing a few was a much bigger deal. Also the reason the mine is "under-used" in the other two match ups is that Terran and Protoss both have Ranged unit compositions as their core. Stalkers, Immortals, Observers, Colossi, Templar, Tanks, Marines, Medivacs, everything is ranged so Mines can rarely be set up, unlike Zerg units where everything is very short range except for Hydralisks (which are still pretty bad units in ZvT). Look, I agree with most of what you are saying. But I am really against nerfing mine. I'd like to see Viper affecting mines for example and see how it goes on test map (which would be huge btw). That is basically it. I prefer depth and strategy in TvZ (Marine/Tank provided at least this) rather than endless stream of units until 1 side is out of resources. This is just dumb. I think we could agree here. At this point, I think they should just buff Tank in a way it is more viable in TvZ and TvP possibly and not affecting TvT much if there is such a buff. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
I have been inclined and worked really hard to make Roach/Hydra/Viper work in ZvT, and from all the games I've lost, all have been against Masters Terran who just dropped one of my expansions. I simply could not afford to go Mutalisks at any point because of Roach/Hydra+upgrades. And currently, drops are a very potent weapon against the Zerg. Over the course of several games (I have asked a couple of masters Terran to practice against and asked them to play 4M) and every game, I felt I needed to go Mutas unless I want to invest around 600+ minerals to defend each expansion with stationary defense. I have tried from going triple Evo Chamber while using Roach Hydra and getting all upgrades done to rush to Ultras while surviving with Roach/Hydra, but I always died in the process. I have tried going ultra-greedy fast Hive (as soon as my Lair completes, I drop the Pit and instantly into Hive) to get Ultras out to be able to do something. However, the only time that I stomped my Terran opponent when I actually proxied Ultralisk Cavern on Whirlwind with an Overlord and he didn't see my army coming either. Now, this short story is a prelude to my biggest problem as Zerg. I cannot clear Mines effectively. Especially not with ling/bling/muta as Marines are usually around them or in front of them and they just stim and run back as soon as I start moving in. I have become really frustrated to the point where I would want the Terran to actually manually activate their mines, remove the splash, anything, because whatever I tried, I seemed to have failed. Also, Mines have removed almost any potential of harassing. I can't tell you how many games I've lost just because my Mutalisk flock ate mines and that's game-ending there. Now, I should have an Overseer with me, but the whole idea of Mutas is to be fast and mobile and to spread your opponent around. I was an avid anti-mine speaker on official forums in the beta, and I still am today, I didn't like it from day 1 and I like it even less now. Overseer speed buff won't make any drastic change and Mines will still be very potent if not just the same as they are now. So, to all the Terran friends, how does the Zerg "stomp" you if you go 4M? I just do not see it working and I absolutely hate the fact that they "promised" more harassment options as Zerg, when we can only do that in ZvP, which we were already good at. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On August 26 2013 16:37 ysnake wrote: So, I'm high-diamond Zerg. Meaning, my mechanics are nowhere near Jaedong's or Scarlett's or whatever pro Zerg, nor is my decision making on their level, but I think I have a pretty good grasp of the game and what to do and what not. I have been inclined and worked really hard to make Roach/Hydra/Viper work in ZvT, and from all the games I've lost, all have been against Masters Terran who just dropped one of my expansions. I simply could not afford to go Mutalisks at any point because of Roach/Hydra+upgrades. And currently, drops are a very potent weapon against the Zerg. Over the course of several games (I have asked a couple of masters Terran to practice against and asked them to play 4M) and every game, I felt I needed to go Mutas unless I want to invest around 600+ minerals to defend each expansion with stationary defense. I have tried from going triple Evo Chamber while using Roach Hydra and getting all upgrades done to rush to Ultras while surviving with Roach/Hydra, but I always died in the process. I have tried going ultra-greedy fast Hive (as soon as my Lair completes, I drop the Pit and instantly into Hive) to get Ultras out to be able to do something. However, the only time that I stomped my Terran opponent when I actually proxied Ultralisk Cavern on Whirlwind with an Overlord and he didn't see my army coming either. Now, this short story is a prelude to my biggest problem as Zerg. I cannot clear Mines effectively. Especially not with ling/bling/muta as Marines are usually around them or in front of them and they just stim and run back as soon as I start moving in. I have become really frustrated to the point where I would want the Terran to actually manually activate their mines, remove the splash, anything, because whatever I tried, I seemed to have failed. Also, Mines have removed almost any potential of harassing. I can't tell you how many games I've lost just because my Mutalisk flock ate mines and that's game-ending there. Now, I should have an Overseer with me, but the whole idea of Mutas is to be fast and mobile and to spread your opponent around. I was an avid anti-mine speaker on official forums in the beta, and I still am today, I didn't like it from day 1 and I like it even less now. Overseer speed buff won't make any drastic change and Mines will still be very potent if not just the same as they are now. So, to all the Terran friends, how does the Zerg "stomp" you if you go 4M? I just do not see it working and I absolutely hate the fact that they "promised" more harassment options as Zerg, when we can only do that in ZvP, which we were already good at. I also hate they "promised" mech being viable, guess what happend? You got Viper that was supposed to counter large marine packs.. Well, turns out to be the ultimate anti-mech weapon and it is not even used against bio. LOL | ||
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
On August 26 2013 16:05 Qwyn wrote: I do think that it is poor unit design that the mine has completely replaced the siege tank in every way - it is a better siege tank. And to me that is a bad design decision. Especially in an expansion, where the goal should be to root out redundancy. Added on top of that the fact that zerg has a very hard time getting their 3/3 upgrades and has to fight against a deadly composition which allows for little mistake... But the worst thing, is that it is nigh on impossible to attack into a Terran production line unless you have an overwhelming advantage. The removal of the tank also removed a lot of dynamics that were present in ZvT that made it so interesting. I think it removed more than it added...though I guess watching marines split over their burrowed siege tanks is classified as more entertaining. There is still the advantage of 13 range for Tanks, even though Widow Mines are quite a bit more mobile. I can see your point about TvZ (except for the fact that it isn't impossible to kill Widow Mines at production), but I've seen a pretty interesting TvT style with Mine/Tank plus some Vikings. They have surprisingly interesting synergy, especially since it leads to some pretty big minefields. Come to think of it, it might work in TvZ. Maybe TvP if Widow Mines are good enough against Zealots. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On August 26 2013 15:52 Incognoto wrote: This is my analysis of bio/mine, feel free to comment it with rational arguments. Most of what I've said is based off of the first two games in Bomber vs JD in WCS finals where I feel that JD didn't really make any major mistakes. + Show Spoiler + On August 26 2013 04:41 Incognoto wrote: Let's face it, TvZ is slanted in Terran's favor atm. Even DK saw this and honestly just an overseer buff isn't going to cut it. However it's interesting because the decision to buff the Overseer is basically admitting that its Terran's cloaked units which are the problem, ie its the widow mines that are the problem. If T & Z both don't make mistakes during the game, the T comes out ahead simply because of how incredibly cost-efficient bio/mine is compared to Marine/Tank. In the Marine/Tank composition, Siege Tanks couldn't shoot at Mutalisks, so Mutalisks were a key unit in TvZ mid-game. Their role was to harass Terran's base, force Turrets, pick off valuable gas units such as Medivacs and Tanks and defend against drops. If the Medivac and Siege Tank numbers were lowered enough, then Marines were rendered inefficient against Ling/Bane. That's why Mutal/Ling/Bling was one of the go-to compositions in mid-game WoL TvZ (at least before Queen buff and then infestors). Fast-forward to Hots. Mines are insanely cheap, can be mass-produced, are expendable and they take out Mutalisk, which is why bio/mine is stronger than Marine/Tank ever was. Bio/Mine effectively shuts down mutalisks. Mines are expendable so while killing them is nice it doesn't mean that Terran will get behind because of it (unlike Tanks in Marine/Tank). Mines are also cloaked and can bring an entire mutalisk cloud into the orange with a single hit. This means that proper mine and turret placement almost completely nullifies Mutalisk harass, even though Mutalisks are now faster and can regenerate health. This means that now Mutalisks are only have two "jobs" which is picking off medivacs and defending against drops. Zerg players also can't afford to not make Mutalisks in favor of something else otherwise drops can become very, very dangerous. Even now, Mutalisks have a hard time actually picking off Medivacs since Medivacs are always close to Marines and there's always the possibility of a hidden mine somewhere so it becomes pretty difficult for Zerg to kill of key units in the mid-game. Those key units are Medivacs, Marines and Mines being so incredibly expendable. The only way to remain cost-efficient against Terran as Zerg is to be on 4 saturated bases to Terran's 3. That's when it becomes possible to have enough gas income to get enough banelings to fight evenly... to an extent. It's incredibly difficult to fight efficiently against bio/mine with muta/ling/bane. If Zerg loses their 4th it's over, so an intelligent Terran will push towards the Zerg's 4th so as to shut it down. If they can do that, then Zerg can't afford banelings to fight evenly and they can't afford to tech to Hive for the 3-3 tech, which leads me to my next point. Terran has easier access to 3-3 compared to Zerg. Once Terran has finished 2-2 they can immediately start 3-3. Zerg simply can't do that. They have to make sure they have both an infestation pit and a hive finished before they can start 3-3. That's the equivalent of a 250 gas and 150 second upgrade to be allowed to start 3-3. This is why TvZ is Terran favored at the moment. I think that even if the Overseer buff isn't necessarily stupid, it might be a better idea to do two things: Give Zerg quicker access to 3-3. Perhaps make 3-3 available with infestation pit, or perhaps nothing at all. Banelings should also be more efficient. I can't give precise numbers, but I would say that only 1 out of 3 banelings ever actually connects in professional TvZ. Nice post. I was thinking about mines, and another problem with the mines is that the friendly fire it does.. doesn't take out the marines while a whole bunch of lings get exploded due to the hitpoint difference. So in someways the mines can be worked against the T player but rarely does it pose as a problem because you need several to kill a group of marines with FF. So I wonder if mines did 30 splash damage instead so they dont instantly take out a group of lings, or banelings for that matter so that half the z army just doesn't evaporate from a few widow mines going off. This could give some T players an incentive to get tanks to kill off the banelings in one shot. So a give and take I suppose if one goes for MMMM instead of MMM/tank.. | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Do Tanks need a buff? Maybe. Do Mines need a nerf? Maybe. Does Zerg need a mid-game buff? Maybe. The problems are there, what are the proper solutions? | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 26 2013 15:49 Zenbrez wrote: Lets not pretend mines aren't at least a little bit too good. Just reducing the attack radius by a bit would possibly be sufficient. The problem isnt that they are "a little too good" but rather that their design lacks in synergy with the rest of the units. After the rather one-sided games of Bomber vs Jaedong yesterday I am feeling that Zerg are doing the wrong thing. They should not try to "beat the Terran Marine-Widow Mine army with constant production" in a direct fight but rather focus fully on killing their production instead. Since there is a constant stream of Marines and Mines coming across the board you cant do this with a "run there and kill it" type of attack and you need flying units to do it. This does NOT mean Mutalisks but rather Overlord drops. Sure the Terran could have some mines at home, but if you are smart enough to make a decently big attack AND start early enough to do it you shouldnt get into really seriously big trouble. Obviously you need decent defense at home to be reasonably safe against any counter harrassment and this means Spine and Spore Crawlers. The core point is that Terrans want to kill hatcheries. Why? Because that limits production. Does killing the army limit the Terran production? No! | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On August 26 2013 18:06 Rabiator wrote: The problem isnt that they are "a little too good" but rather that their design lacks in synergy with the rest of the units. After the rather one-sided games of Bomber vs Jaedong yesterday I am feeling that Zerg are doing the wrong thing. They should not try to "beat the Terran Marine-Widow Mine army with constant production" in a direct fight but rather focus fully on killing their production instead. Since there is a constant stream of Marines and Mines coming across the board you cant do this with a "run there and kill it" type of attack and you need flying units to do it. This does NOT mean Mutalisks but rather Overlord drops. Sure the Terran could have some mines at home, but if you are smart enough to make a decently big attack AND start early enough to do it you shouldnt get into really seriously big trouble. Obviously you need decent defense at home to be reasonably safe against any counter harrassment and this means Spine and Spore Crawlers. The core point is that Terrans want to kill hatcheries. Why? Because that limits production. Does killing the army limit the Terran production? No! How can I get to Terran's production buildings? | ||
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woreyour
582 Posts
How about bring back K something crystal for the high templar? haha A little more buff and I will switch back to terran muahahaha | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On August 26 2013 18:06 Rabiator wrote: The problem isnt that they are "a little too good" but rather that their design lacks in synergy with the rest of the units. After the rather one-sided games of Bomber vs Jaedong yesterday I am feeling that Zerg are doing the wrong thing. They should not try to "beat the Terran Marine-Widow Mine army with constant production" in a direct fight but rather focus fully on killing their production instead. Since there is a constant stream of Marines and Mines coming across the board you cant do this with a "run there and kill it" type of attack and you need flying units to do it. This does NOT mean Mutalisks but rather Overlord drops. Sure the Terran could have some mines at home, but if you are smart enough to make a decently big attack AND start early enough to do it you shouldnt get into really seriously big trouble. Obviously you need decent defense at home to be reasonably safe against any counter harrassment and this means Spine and Spore Crawlers. The core point is that Terrans want to kill hatcheries. Why? Because that limits production. Does killing the army limit the Terran production? No! Overlord drops? That's gimmicky and preposterous. What exactly do you want to drop? 4 Roaches? 4 Hydra? 8 lings? 4 Banelings? 1 Ultra? Roaches don't have the dps to be worth dropping, they're tanky units. Marines, Zealots and Marauders all do much more damage for the numbers can be dropped (4+warpin, 8 and 4 respectively). Hydralisks are WAY too expensive to be worth dropping and drop like flies if they don't have something to tank damage for them. There's a reason you don't really see Hydra in ZvT. 8 Lings are way too fragile, 16 lings as well. They might get a tech lab or some SCVs but they'll never be as good as Marines, Zealots or Marauders because those units are either ranged or are resilient enough to do damage regardless. Also medivacs heal, warp prisms warp in massive amounts of units Banelings? They do damage once, not sustained damage. If you let one medivac full of Marines go at it unhindered, they'll do MASSIVE damage. Banelings do good damage but it's all in burst, they can't do nearly as much as Marines. They're also expensive gas units. Doom drops? It gets scouted and there goes your plan. Nydus? A couple of SCVs and good vision completely nullify Nydus. Basically Zerg can't drop for crap; nor should they be able to. Their strength lies in masses of units (unlike real drops which use small amounts of cost-efficient units) and the ability to drone quickly. By design they can't use drops. So, no, that isn't an option either. Muta/Ling/bling is currently the oly way to play ZvT mid-game without being completely picked apart by Terran drops. If mines didn't completely shut down Mutalisk harass then you might have something to work with with your idea. | ||
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
On August 26 2013 18:18 ysnake wrote: How can I get to Terran's production buildings? Read. On August 26 2013 18:06 Rabiator wrote: This does NOT mean Mutalisks but rather Overlord drops. Sure the Terran could have some mines at home, but if you are smart enough to make a decently big attack AND start early enough to do it you shouldnt get into really seriously big trouble. Obviously you need decent defense at home to be reasonably safe against any counter harrassment and this means Spine and Spore Crawlers. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
Banshee opening, ERHMERGERD IT'S SO HARD QQ; Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Thor drop opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran is too efficient, Q_Q, Dustin, "Come David, to the nerf cave!" Bunker rush opening, ERHMERGERD MAH QUEEN, Terran has too many options!!! Nerf to the face... FACT: Every unit in the Terran arsenal has some form of AoE OR Burst damage except Viking, reaper, banshee, medivac and SCV... Terran's only ground-to-ground static defense building is a 550 mineral, 150g and 550 sec to build monster. And Zerg get to build static defenses that can move. To build 12 marauders in a cycle, Terran have to systematically build and arrange a dozen buildings and their attachments while losing income for Every SCV not mining. The same Zerg just has to remember their Spawn larvae macro timings and not lose their roach warren. A Terran has a flying unit which has a spell that paints a target a bright red for 3 sec before it goes off doing 100 AoE. Meanwhile Zergs have a unit which has a spell that fires a projectile that stops all movement while doing 30 dmg which can be reapplied for as long as there are infestors to Fungal. Who's the imba race now? | ||
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uThermal 2v2 Circuit
CSO Cup
Sparkling Tuna Cup
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
Wardi Open
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EPT
