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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
On August 26 2013 06:42 VayneAuthority wrote: it would make missile comp in zvp way too strong, roach/hydra/lurker would be insane to deal with, zealots would just melt give Protoss Reavers | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On August 26 2013 13:37 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Actually Zerg need a way to safely detect mines, same way Terran have scan and Protoss have observers, detection to changelings? Changelings trigger mines? Propably imba because WMs trigger ontop of marines via changeling is a free kill for the Zerg. Or maybe it'll work out b/c the Terran now must kill the changeling or die to Widow mines. Hmmm Changlings do tirgger mines as long as they haven't already been seen by the terran (so they don't look like a marine yet. Why does zerg not have a safe way to detect mines? I find it much easier to built 4 overseers than to build 2 observers. And when I play protoss, I'd rather have those overseers than observers as the game goes later. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
On August 26 2013 13:48 convention wrote: Changlings do tirgger mines as long as they haven't already been seen by the terran (so they don't look like a marine yet. Why does zerg not have a safe way to detect mines? I find it much easier to built 4 overseers than to build 2 observers. And when I play protoss, I'd rather have those overseers than observers as the game goes later. Because overseers are a lot slower than the rest of the zerg army. Also mines 2 shot overseer while they dont shoot obs. | ||
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TiberiusAk
United States122 Posts
One possible way to encourage WM disposal with infestors is cheaper fungals. Ooh, 50 energy fungal. That would certainly make infestors more cost-efficient (4 fungals per infestor vs 2), and it would also remove the necessity for pathogen glands research first, (though that upgrade might still be worth getting in the long run). It would save zergs 150 gas in the short term and make the transition easier without actually buffing fungal. Fungal would still be just as terrible for killing things quickly, but allow the zerg army to connect without dedicting as much gas as it did previously. Interesting... | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
And then? With 10 Reavers Protoss will flatten everything OR the Reaver gets nerfed to the ground as the Siege Tank "had to be" and is nearly useless. SC2 is a game designed around huge armies which are concentrated in a tight ball and there is no serious punishment allowed for that ... by the devs. Baneling mines/bombing runs are apparently too bad to pull off (hardly any progamer does them anymore) and Storm is relatively easy to dodge; these are one-time attacks though and not attacks with a cooldown like the ones from a Reaver, a Siege Tank or a Colossus. Those will never be allowed to be threatening to the deathball structure of the game! If you look at the campaign version of the Lurker you will notice that it deals less damage than the BW one ... in a game where there is more to kill. People have complained about the Lurker not being good because of this. A "new and improved SC2"-Reaver would probably follow the same route as the Siege Tank or the Nuke (which deals pitiful damage against buildings now) ... soften it up until it doesnt really hurt anymore to keep the whining away. So be careful what you are asking for, because it could destroy fond memories. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On August 26 2013 13:59 TiberiusAk wrote: Ooh, 50 energy fungal. That would certainly make infestors more cost-efficient (4 fungals per infestor vs 2), and it would also remove the necessity for pathogen glands research first, (though that upgrade might still be worth getting in the long run). It would save zergs 150 gas in the short term and make the transition easier without actually buffing fungal. Fungal would still be just as terrible for killing things quickly, but allow the zerg army to connect without dedicting as much gas as it did previously. Interesting... Yes, FG has already been heavily nerfed to make way for SH, with 50 energy, money fungals will come back. SH cannot fill the role of mine disposal as small counts of SH barely make it to trigger mines as deployment is too high to compete with upgraded WM. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 26 2013 14:10 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, FG has already been heavily nerfed to make way for SH, with 50 energy, money fungals will come back. SH cannot fill the role of mine disposal as small counts of SH barely make it to trigger mines as deployment is too high to compete with upgraded WM. Use Infested Terrans to trigger the mines? They are dirt cheap for 25 energy ... | ||
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Sufinsil
United States760 Posts
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Sufinsil
United States760 Posts
On August 26 2013 14:12 Rabiator wrote: Use Infested Terrans to trigger the mines? They are dirt cheap for 25 energy ... Good like getting close enough to trigger 10 mines that cover the retreat path of the MMM. Also the MMM ball would kill the egg before it triggers the mine. I wonder if a delay in retargeting would help. Ling triggers the mine as a target but dies to gunfire. Takes a couple seconds to retarget and gives time for the zerg to kill it. | ||
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TiberiusAk
United States122 Posts
On August 26 2013 14:12 Rabiator wrote: Use Infested Terrans to trigger the mines? They are dirt cheap for 25 energy ... I've noticed Scarlett and others trying this in the past. It has fallen out of use, I think largely because the infested terran eggs die to the bio ball before the widow mines actually fire half the time. For reference, liquidpedia says infested terran eggs have 70 hp and 2 armor, and I think they are not affected by upgrades so...they'd die even to marines. Edit: Note that by the time infestors are out marines will have +1, if not +2. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On August 26 2013 14:12 Rabiator wrote: Use Infested Terrans to trigger the mines? They are dirt cheap for 25 energy ... Yes, as I posted in Designated Balance thread before, Z already have the tools to disarm the 4M comp via including a small number of infestors in muta/ling/bling or roach/hydra. Burrowed infestors can come in to snipe bio-mine camps. However, without a cheaper FG in its present nerfed form, the reward-to-risk ratio to research burrow, sneak up to a camp of 4M and fire off a few ITs to too great to justify the tech reroute, when a GM or M can have an easier time just massing enough mutas to one shot stray mines. | ||
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Kiwan
Australia36 Posts
1. I think giving infestors a slight buff to their move speed on creep would allow zerg to save more of their infestors after engagements. It would also help when using infestors to deal with drops. 2. Higher armour on the infestor eggs may allow them to live long enough against marine dps for them to activate the mines. I don't think the pvz matchup would be affected that much by these changes. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On August 26 2013 14:28 Kiwan wrote: My thoughts are after seeing the WCS grand finals is that infestors need a slight buff for the zvt matchup. 1. I think giving infestors a slight buff to their move speed on creep would allow zerg to save more of their infestors after engagements. It would also help when using infestors to deal with drops. 2. Higher armour on the infestor eggs may allow them to live long enough against marine dps for them to activate the mines. I don't think the pvz matchup would be affected that much by these changes. I think that's a good alternative as it forces diverse play greatly rewarding burrowed infestor play something I miss from the WoL days. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
Be honest here, you just want to make it purely BW at that point. | ||
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ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
On August 26 2013 06:37 Protosnake wrote: In all honesty I dont see the point of lurker right now, they wont deal with mines, they wont deal with medivacs, they wont bring anything new to the table They would deal with marines =D | ||
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NightOfTheDead
Lithuania1711 Posts
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On August 26 2013 15:10 ReMinD_ wrote: For the time being, they should just nerf Widow Mine. That is one unit that affects TvZ the most while having very little effect on other match-ups. Sure, why not remove the only new unit Terran has in Hots from all matchups so that we can play 100% WoL. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On August 26 2013 15:39 Everlong wrote: Sure, why not remove the only new unit Terran has in Hots from all matchups so that we can play 100% WoL. Nerfing isn't the same as removing. I made a big post in this thread discussing how bio/mine as a composition works and what zerg has to answer that composition. I put more thought and energy into that post than 90% of the people posting in this thread and everyone completely ignored it. Sometimes I wonder if people really discuss things in threads or just post randomly without reading. | ||
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Zenbrez
Canada5973 Posts
On August 26 2013 15:39 Everlong wrote: Sure, why not remove the only new unit Terran has in Hots from all matchups so that we can play 100% WoL. Lets not pretend mines aren't at least a little bit too good. Just reducing the attack radius by a bit would possibly be sufficient. | ||
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