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On August 23 2013 21:25 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 19:20 BrassMonkey27 wrote:On August 23 2013 11:14 Grumbels wrote:On August 23 2013 10:44 ysnake wrote:On August 23 2013 10:16 Grumbels wrote:
have ghosts be viable as a transition Ghosts are anti-spell casters and Zerg doesn't use many spellcasters in lategame anymore, as they are no longer the core of the army. You can probably make a couple of Ghosts for those 4-5 Infestors, but that's about it. Or those 2-3 Vipers. No one wants to see Brood Lord mass Snipe again. I think it would be nice for a reworked snipe to have an anti-massive utility. I had an earlier suggestion to give snipe a 0.5s stun effect, but nobody seemed to like that. *shrug* The problem with snipe in the first place was its ridiculous utility in countering zerg tier 3, aka massive units. But it's okay for snipe to have some utility in countering zerg tier 3, isn't it? There clearly should be a middle ground between the current uselessness and the previous ridiculousness. And they can always slightly change the design of snipe so that it doesn't benefit from going pure ghost. Keep in mind that qxc wrote a blog post about how snipe should not be set to 25 vs massive but rather to 35, just so it could keep some utility, and this idea was received very well. ( link)
25 vs massive is enough imo. 35 means 1 ghost dealing 280dmg = 1 ghost > 1 BL (which are already in a very bad spot) + 2 ghosts > 1 ultra (and they are already softened up a lot by WMs). just make it 25 +25 vs non-massive is fine.
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Ghost should be a late game addition unit, not a full transition unit like what it was when snipe was broken.
Since zerg aren't able to get to give so easily and infestor are not that mass able anymore but needed for ultra, ghost should make a return if necessary, sniping infestors of emp them will make ultras extremely vulnerable to kiting
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Overseer seem nice, I am uncertain that the "buffing" the upgrades for mech units the reasoning seem kind of flimsy. They are probably just trying that change to see what happends.
ps.
Roflol Ultras.
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It seems like Zerg are having tons of trouble surviving 2 base all ins vs protoss AND can't win vs protoss in late late game scenarios. Two very different problems Blizzard needs to consider looking into. I really don't know what tweaks would work to balance the game but I feel like a change to hydra/swarmhost or how Zerg gets to the midgame will help.
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On August 24 2013 02:51 zJayy962 wrote:
It seems like Zerg are having tons of trouble surviving 2 base all ins vs protoss AND can't win vs protoss in late late game scenarios. Two very different problems Blizzard needs to consider looking into. I really don't know what tweaks would work to balance the game but I feel like a change to hydra/swarmhost or how Zerg gets to the midgame will help.
What's your basis for this? I haven't seen or experienced either of these. Holding your third against a 2-base all in is the deciding moment of many games, and Zerg can certainly handle it.
Late late game Protoss can have some scary unit compositions, but Zerg has the tools to fight all of them.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On August 24 2013 03:25 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 02:51 zJayy962 wrote:
It seems like Zerg are having tons of trouble surviving 2 base all ins vs protoss AND can't win vs protoss in late late game scenarios. Two very different problems Blizzard needs to consider looking into. I really don't know what tweaks would work to balance the game but I feel like a change to hydra/swarmhost or how Zerg gets to the midgame will help. What's your basis for this? I haven't seen or experienced either of these. Holding your third against a 2-base all in is the deciding moment of many games, and Zerg can certainly handle it. Late late game Protoss can have some scary unit compositions, but Zerg has the tools to fight all of them.
I also find it hard to believe the original statement, coming from a Zerg player. If you scout an allin and prepare for it, the only thing left to do is get a good engagement and even if he breaks into your third and kills it, you're still way ahead in workers count. If you do not prepare for it, that's your own fault.
However, my subjective opinion is that I hate using Swarm Hosts, they are just crappy units for me to use as Zerg, they feel gimmicky, and at times, too strong against a Protoss who doesn't have 5+ Colossi. Quite frankly, they are the backbone of the Zerg army and without them, Zerg simply doesn't stand a chance against Protoss.
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On August 24 2013 06:19 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 03:25 fdsdfg wrote:On August 24 2013 02:51 zJayy962 wrote:
It seems like Zerg are having tons of trouble surviving 2 base all ins vs protoss AND can't win vs protoss in late late game scenarios. Two very different problems Blizzard needs to consider looking into. I really don't know what tweaks would work to balance the game but I feel like a change to hydra/swarmhost or how Zerg gets to the midgame will help. What's your basis for this? I haven't seen or experienced either of these. Holding your third against a 2-base all in is the deciding moment of many games, and Zerg can certainly handle it. Late late game Protoss can have some scary unit compositions, but Zerg has the tools to fight all of them. I also find it hard to believe the original statement, coming from a Zerg player. If you scout an allin and prepare for it, the only thing left to do is get a good engagement and even if he breaks into your third and kills it, you're still way ahead in workers count. If you do not prepare for it, that's your own fault. However, my subjective opinion is that I hate using Swarm Hosts, they are just crappy units for me to use as Zerg, they feel gimmicky, and at times, too strong against a Protoss who doesn't have 5+ Colossi. Quite frankly, they are the backbone of the Zerg army and without them, Zerg simply doesn't stand a chance against Protoss.
The problem stems from the way Blizzard handles both races. Zerg is supposed to have these cheap, fast disposable units, but lacks a core unit to build an army around. I'm talking about a ranged unit that can force a fight through siege strength. Terran bio units meet this standard, as well as stalker, sentries, and colossi. The closest units Zerg has to this is the Hydralisk and Broodlord, both of which get slaughtered in a direct fight, and one of which isn't even available unit very late stages.
On the other hand, Protoss is a race with weak base stats on gateway units and OP higher tech options, this causes the odd situation where trading away the core of their army with any sort of relative exchange is a huge win, while losing even a handful of higher tech units can be game-ending.
Combining these two together: zerglings and roaches aren't even worth making past the 10 min mark or so, Protoss has no incentive to risk poking out of their base unless they're sure to win, and NOBODY wants to fight in the middle of the map. You end up with this truly stupid situation of ALL high tech units on both sides, as the only low tech units even viable at this point is Stalkers and Hydras, and losing 20-30 of those in a fight means you have to retreat and regroup because BOTH sides can reinforce literally by the dozens thanks to inject and warp gate.
I find the hatred that people have for the SH both understandable and audacious. On the one hand, its annoying to have an endless stream of free units marching into your natural all game long. On the other hand, with force field, colossi, and the ultra hard counters Protoss has available to every single Zerg unit, WTF else do they have available?
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On August 24 2013 03:25 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2013 02:51 zJayy962 wrote:
It seems like Zerg are having tons of trouble surviving 2 base all ins vs protoss AND can't win vs protoss in late late game scenarios. Two very different problems Blizzard needs to consider looking into. I really don't know what tweaks would work to balance the game but I feel like a change to hydra/swarmhost or how Zerg gets to the midgame will help. What's your basis for this? I haven't seen or experienced either of these. Holding your third against a 2-base all in is the deciding moment of many games, and Zerg can certainly handle it. Late late game Protoss can have some scary unit compositions, but Zerg has the tools to fight all of them.
Mainly based off of Korean ZvP over the last 2 months.
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Blizzard pls nerf Widowmine so we can have a balanced TvZ again
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based on the WCS finals i just watched, i think blizzard should rethink giving terran an zerg buffs..
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Make Infestors useful again in a non gimmicky unbalanced way like in WoL so Zerg can actually get up to Tier 3 in ZvT. Then maybe we can see if we need to buff the Ultralisk or not.
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On a slightly different note. When will new ladder season start (EU). Midnight CEST or will it be at some point monday
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it's a sad day for protoss when they base our success off rain and proleague. 1 solid player and a league MOST SUITED TO GIMMICKY ONE TIME BUILDS does not a race make.
and yes as everyone pointed out protoss dependence on high tech makes them a volatile race that can't really be fixed and it's sad. Zealots and dragoons in BW were a lot manlier, stalkers are a god damn joke past 10 mins.
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On August 26 2013 00:16 SlammerSC2 wrote:
Blizzard pls nerf Widowmine so we can have a balanced TvZ again
suggestions?
longer build time?
change tech requirements?
increase cost?
decrease damage?
decrease splash radius?
decrease splash damage?
increase cooldown?
and how do you think that will affect the matchup in a more balanced way?
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On August 26 2013 00:32 VayneAuthority wrote:
it's a sad day for protoss when they base our success off rain and proleague. 1 solid player and a league MOST SUITED TO GIMMICKY ONE TIME BUILDS does not a race make.
and yes as everyone pointed out protoss dependence on high tech makes them a volatile race that can't really be fixed and it's sad. Zealots and dragoons in BW were a lot manlier, stalkers are a god damn joke past 10 mins.
Protoss has wcs eu/na and I want to say another tournament. It's not like your race is doing awful right now.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On August 26 2013 03:13 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 00:16 SlammerSC2 wrote:
Blizzard pls nerf Widowmine so we can have a balanced TvZ again suggestions? longer build time? change tech requirements? increase cost? decrease damage? decrease splash radius? decrease splash damage? increase cooldown? and how do you think that will affect the matchup in a more balanced way?
- Longer build time would mean that you want to nerf timings or re-maxing. Since timings are not he problem nor is the reactor production of them.
- Rushes are not the problem
- Would need to drastically increase it.
- No.
- Remove it.
- Remove it.
- No.
Problem with widow mines is that Terran is dictating where the Zerg will engage, as we saw today, Terran slowly pushes towards their goal of killing off an expansion and Widow Mines dictate that. Whoever states Widow Mines require a lot of micro, they require as much micro as pressing your Siege Mode hotkey on your Siege Tanks. One widow mine can take out a whole pack of main core of the Zerg army, which is Zerglings or Banelings. Roach/Hydra is really having a hard time against 3/3 Terran, and you cannot possibly survive out of it, nor can you "nicely" switch to Ultras because you are missing the upgrades (unless you go triple evo chamber, which I do not see working as Terran starves out the Zerg on gas). It's how cost-efficient it is, and Terran already has the most cost-efficient unit at disposal, and as we see, they just mass them.
Quite frankly, it was not fun for me to watch Terran slowly drilling away the Zerg every game. Maybe it's the problem with the current meta and how pros played it out with their muta/ling/bling style, but they either finished the game with critical number of Mutas or they lost while stuck in Lair tech. Maybe Zerg should stay a bit more on 2 bases and apply pressure via Roaches or something.
Oh well.
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I don't know why you matched build time with timing attacks, if a unit has a higher build time generally you'll have fewer of them at any given point and while they will still be equally powerful they can't have as much effect on the match-up anymore due to their lower numbers. It's the same thing as changing resource cost which also means you'll have less stuff.
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Make Siege Tanks more relevant and give WM a SLIGHT nerf.
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Let's face it, TvZ is slanted in Terran's favor atm. Even DK saw this and honestly just an overseer buff isn't going to cut it. However it's interesting because the decision to buff the Overseer is basically admitting that its Terran's cloaked units which are the problem, ie its the widow mines that are the problem.
If T & Z both don't make mistakes during the game, the T comes out ahead simply because of how incredibly cost-efficient bio/mine is compared to Marine/Tank.
In the Marine/Tank composition, Siege Tanks couldn't shoot at Mutalisks, so Mutalisks were a key unit in TvZ mid-game. Their role was to harass Terran's base, force Turrets, pick off valuable gas units such as Medivacs and Tanks and defend against drops. If the Medivac and Siege Tank numbers were lowered enough, then Marines were rendered inefficient against Ling/Bane. That's why Mutal/Ling/Bling was one of the go-to compositions in mid-game WoL TvZ (at least before Queen buff and then infestors).
Fast-forward to Hots. Mines are insanely cheap, can be mass-produced, are expendable and they take out Mutalisk, which is why bio/mine is stronger than Marine/Tank ever was. Bio/Mine effectively shuts down mutalisks. Mines are expendable so while killing them is nice it doesn't mean that Terran will get behind because of it (unlike Tanks in Marine/Tank). Mines are also cloaked and can bring an entire mutalisk cloud into the orange with a single hit. This means that proper mine and turret placement almost completely nullifies Mutalisk harass, even though Mutalisks are now faster and can regenerate health. This means that now Mutalisks are only have two "jobs" which is picking off medivacs and defending against drops. Zerg players also can't afford to not make Mutalisks in favor of something else otherwise drops can become very, very dangerous. Even now, Mutalisks have a hard time actually picking off Medivacs since Medivacs are always close to Marines and there's always the possibility of a hidden mine somewhere so it becomes pretty difficult for Zerg to kill of key units in the mid-game. Those key units are Medivacs, Marines and Mines being so incredibly expendable.
The only way to remain cost-efficient against Terran as Zerg is to be on 4 saturated bases to Terran's 3. That's when it becomes possible to have enough gas income to get enough banelings to fight evenly... to an extent. It's incredibly difficult to fight efficiently against bio/mine with muta/ling/bane. If Zerg loses their 4th it's over, so an intelligent Terran will push towards the Zerg's 4th so as to shut it down. If they can do that, then Zerg can't afford banelings to fight evenly and they can't afford to tech to Hive for the 3-3 tech, which leads me to my next point.
Terran has easier access to 3-3 compared to Zerg. Once Terran has finished 2-2 they can immediately start 3-3. Zerg simply can't do that. They have to make sure they have both an infestation pit and a hive finished before they can start 3-3. That's the equivalent of a 250 gas and 150 second upgrade to be allowed to start 3-3.
This is why TvZ is Terran favored at the moment. I think that even if the Overseer buff isn't necessarily stupid, it might be a better idea to do two things: Give Zerg quicker access to 3-3. Perhaps make 3-3 available with infestation pit, or perhaps nothing at all. Banelings should also be more efficient. I can't give precise numbers, but I would say that only 1 out of 3 banelings ever actually connects in professional TvZ.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
The big issue I have with complaining about balance in ZvT is no zerg tries anything but Ling/Bling/Muta despite it being proven before that Roach/Hydra is actually really good against mine compositions. It strikes me that the issue isn't widowmines, it's that maybe hydras could do with a +bio buff or something to make them better against marines (which they should be) either that or zergs should stop trying to trade evenly all the time with ling/bling/muta and actually crush the force with roach/hydra as is already..
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EPT
