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On August 26 2013 04:57 Qikz wrote:
The big issue I have with complaining about balance in ZvT is no zerg tries anything but Ling/Bling/Muta despite it being proven before that Roach/Hydra is actually really good against mine compositions. It strikes me that the issue isn't widowmines, it's that maybe hydras could do with a +bio buff or something to make them better against marines (which they should be) either that or zergs should stop trying to trade evenly all the time with ling/bling/muta and actually crush the force with roach/hydra as is already..
The only time when Roach/Hydra is viable is when they have some AOE support like Infestors, which are very gimicky atm, and Vipers, which come out on Hive tech. Sure, WM may get countered, but MMM will still eat up that composition pretty quickly.
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On August 26 2013 04:57 Qikz wrote:
The big issue I have with complaining about balance in ZvT is no zerg tries anything but Ling/Bling/Muta despite it being proven before that Roach/Hydra is actually really good against mine compositions. It strikes me that the issue isn't widowmines, it's that maybe hydras could do with a +bio buff or something to make them better against marines (which they should be).
Roach/Hydra is very cost efficient against Bio/Mine in the early stages of the game where Zerg tends to have a bit more supply than Terran and both are under 150 supply. However once supply goes over 180+, Roach/Hydra isn't as efficient anymore due to the fact that they're bigger units so they cover more area for damage and due to the fact that there are enough Medivacs out to heal units at a rate where Roach/Hydra can't keep up anymore.
What also kicks in is that Roach/Hydra does quite poorly against drops compared to MLB so a good Terran can really exploit that. Siege Tanks also become quite strong as Roach/Hydra can't really break a good Siege Tank with Bio/Medivac support.
So using Roach/Hydra as a composition means that you have a timing widow early-mid game where you have to do damage to Terran so that they can't max. this is easier said than done given the defensive capabilities the Terran race has (Tanks & Mines).Something else to consider is that if you're investing into Roach/Hydra, you probably want to upgrade those units. If you're upgrading zerg ranged weapons, chances are you're not upgrading melee. So when you finally get to Ultralisks they won't be as good as they would have been had you been using MLB. Unless you're going SH, but drops just tear SH apart.
Unless they do indeed buff Hydra or something, Roach/Hydra isn't a viable answer.
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On August 26 2013 04:57 Qikz wrote:
The big issue I have with complaining about balance in ZvT is no zerg tries anything but Ling/Bling/Muta despite it being proven before that Roach/Hydra is actually really good against mine compositions. It strikes me that the issue isn't widowmines, it's that maybe hydras could do with a +bio buff or something to make them better against marines (which they should be) either that or zergs should stop trying to trade evenly all the time with ling/bling/muta and actually crush the force with roach/hydra as is already..
Roach/hydra cant deal with drops, is weak against tank and isnt that strong against MMMM anyway
But in the end the only thing that matter is that it cannot deal with drops, so it's not viable
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On August 26 2013 04:57 Qikz wrote:
The big issue I have with complaining about balance in ZvT is no zerg tries anything but Ling/Bling/Muta despite it being proven before that Roach/Hydra is actually really good against mine compositions. It strikes me that the issue isn't widowmines, it's that maybe hydras could do with a +bio buff or something to make them better against marines (which they should be) either that or zergs should stop trying to trade evenly all the time with ling/bling/muta and actually crush the force with roach/hydra as is already..
I'd like to see someone get good with timing fungal growth. Another thing I haven't seen a lot of at higher levels is blinding cloud + banes. Since I can see Blizzard being very scared of touching infestors I'd like to see them take a longer look at vipers (they were already discussing the starting energy - perhaps the tech position would be worth looking at too).
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Can we talk about how Drilling Claws upgrade is imba? It makes it so you never catch widow mines "unsieged".
Also Fungal needs a buff bad... I think a projectile speed buff would be a good answer. Thoughts?
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On August 26 2013 05:27 manniefresh wrote:
Can we talk about how Drilling Claws upgrade is imba? It makes it so you never catch widow mines "unsieged".
Also Fungal needs a buff bad... I think a projectile speed buff would be a good answer. Thoughts?
Yes, I agree! I think it's a good time to remove Drilling Claws.
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On August 26 2013 05:27 manniefresh wrote:
Can we talk about how Drilling Claws upgrade is imba? It makes it so you never catch widow mines "unsieged".
Also Fungal needs a buff bad... I think a projectile speed buff would be a good answer. Thoughts?
The issue with FG is the freeze effect. If it hits everything dies to chain, and when it misses the Zerg is screwed. FG needs o be changed in some way before a any buff is warranted. Also the issue with Infestors is the BL Infestor combo. It's hard to buff Infestors without risking a return of this.
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bring back Lurker so Zerg will get their own set it and forget it unit
that will change how Terrans play marine / medivac / widow mine
BUT NOOOOO, Blizzard says Lurkers perform an action too similar to Banelings
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On August 26 2013 05:48 udgnim wrote:
bring back Lurker so Zerg will get their own set it and forget it unit
that will change how Terrans play marine / medivac / widow mine
BUT NOOOOO, Blizzard says Lurkers perform an action too similar to Banelings
The more recent news is they have tried several times to implement the lurker but its to hard cuz of longrange units like the colossous
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On August 26 2013 05:57 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 05:48 udgnim wrote:
bring back Lurker so Zerg will get their own set it and forget it unit
that will change how Terrans play marine / medivac / widow mine
BUT NOOOOO, Blizzard says Lurkers perform an action too similar to Banelings The more recent news is they have tried several times to implement the lurker but its to hard cuz of longrange units like the colossous
lol. Yet they have no problem inventing factory units that can be healed by medivacs or mines that act like rocket launcher stations.
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On August 26 2013 06:05 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 05:57 Foxxan wrote:On August 26 2013 05:48 udgnim wrote:
bring back Lurker so Zerg will get their own set it and forget it unit
that will change how Terrans play marine / medivac / widow mine
BUT NOOOOO, Blizzard says Lurkers perform an action too similar to Banelings The more recent news is they have tried several times to implement the lurker but its to hard cuz of longrange units like the colossous lol. Yet they have no problem inventing factory units that can be healed by medivacs or mines that act like rocket launcher stations.
In all honesty I dont see the point of lurker right now, they wont deal with mines, they wont deal with medivacs, they wont bring anything new to the table
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On August 26 2013 06:37 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 06:05 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 26 2013 05:57 Foxxan wrote:On August 26 2013 05:48 udgnim wrote:
bring back Lurker so Zerg will get their own set it and forget it unit
that will change how Terrans play marine / medivac / widow mine
BUT NOOOOO, Blizzard says Lurkers perform an action too similar to Banelings The more recent news is they have tried several times to implement the lurker but its to hard cuz of longrange units like the colossous lol. Yet they have no problem inventing factory units that can be healed by medivacs or mines that act like rocket launcher stations. In all honesty I dont see the point of lurker right now, they wont deal with mines, they wont deal with medivacs, they wont bring anything new to the table
They would deal with Marines cost-efficiently.
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it would make missile comp in zvp way too strong, roach/hydra/lurker would be insane to deal with, zealots would just melt
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On August 26 2013 06:39 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 06:37 Protosnake wrote:On August 26 2013 06:05 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 26 2013 05:57 Foxxan wrote:On August 26 2013 05:48 udgnim wrote:
bring back Lurker so Zerg will get their own set it and forget it unit
that will change how Terrans play marine / medivac / widow mine
BUT NOOOOO, Blizzard says Lurkers perform an action too similar to Banelings The more recent news is they have tried several times to implement the lurker but its to hard cuz of longrange units like the colossous lol. Yet they have no problem inventing factory units that can be healed by medivacs or mines that act like rocket launcher stations. In all honesty I dont see the point of lurker right now, they wont deal with mines, they wont deal with medivacs, they wont bring anything new to the table They would deal with Marines cost-efficiently.
Swarm host also deal with marines cost-efficiently, like I said, even if i enjoyed playing them, I dont see the point of lurker right now
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On August 26 2013 05:57 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 05:48 udgnim wrote:
bring back Lurker so Zerg will get their own set it and forget it unit
that will change how Terrans play marine / medivac / widow mine
BUT NOOOOO, Blizzard says Lurkers perform an action too similar to Banelings The more recent news is they have tried several times to implement the lurker but its to hard cuz of longrange units like the colossous
By the way, people used to ask for the colossus getting an attack similar to that of the lurker i.e. a line from the colossus to the target instead of the way it is now. The unit would still lack some of the cool aspects of the lurker (maybe if it had a set-up mode) but it would be quite similar really.
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i think it might be beneficial to make some changes to the swarmhost
the swarmhost is halfway viable against the slow armies of protoss (and against mech sometimes)
against bio+mine and drops swarmhosts are just horribly pathetic. going swarmhosts in TvZ is almost like suicide because they are so slow in just their mechanics of battle
i have an idea... maybe increase swarmhost speed of engaging in combat but bring along nerfs as well
what about this...
give swarmhosts an attack-move button and allow swarmhosts to attack-move while burrowed and give them 2.25 speed when burrowed and give swarmhosts a "fake attack" that does no damage just functions as targeting for locusts
give locusts speedling speed and melee range, and make it so swarmhosts need to get in 20range of a target to fire. swarmhosts "fire" is firing the locusts. make the locusts now fire/spawn instantly (instead of getting that spawntime). when swarmhosts fire their locusts, locusts will auto-target the unit the swarmhost targeted with its "fake attack" but locusts can also be manually controlled at any time
and heres the nerf. after swarmhosts fire their locust, they are unable to move or unburrow for 25 seconds. recharge time of locust stays at 25 seconds.
with this change, large amounts of collossi and hellbats would still beat swarmhosts because the hosts would be unable to move and melee locusts are killable by hellbats and even blueflame hellions
so this creates counters for zerg. swarmhosts would do okay vs MMM,
swarmhosts get countered by hellbats/blueflame hellions
zerg needs lots of banelings to deal with the hellions/hellbats
so it creates a good cycle of counters on the ground for zerg vs terran
swarmhosts > mmm+mines > mass banelingz > hellbats/hellions > swarmhosts
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On August 26 2013 04:57 Qikz wrote:
The big issue I have with complaining about balance in ZvT is no zerg tries anything but Ling/Bling/Muta despite it being proven before that Roach/Hydra is actually really good against mine compositions. It strikes me that the issue isn't widowmines, it's that maybe hydras could do with a +bio buff or something to make them better against marines (which they should be) either that or zergs should stop trying to trade evenly all the time with ling/bling/muta and actually crush the force with roach/hydra as is already..
What? Are you serious? Zergs have tried roach/hydra, have tried roach/ling/bane, wtf do you expect us to do when they are actually garbage compositions? It relies entirely on terran not realizing what you are doing when doing roach/hydra or roach/ling/bane.
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On August 26 2013 03:50 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 03:13 DusTerr wrote:On August 26 2013 00:16 SlammerSC2 wrote:
Blizzard pls nerf Widowmine so we can have a balanced TvZ again suggestions? longer build time? change tech requirements? increase cost? decrease damage? decrease splash radius? decrease splash damage? increase cooldown? and how do you think that will affect the matchup in a more balanced way? - Longer build time would mean that you want to nerf timings or re-maxing. Since timings are not he problem nor is the reactor production of them. - Rushes are not the problem - Would need to drastically increase it. - No. - Remove it. - Remove it. - No. Problem with widow mines is that Terran is dictating where the Zerg will engage, as we saw today, Terran slowly pushes towards their goal of killing off an expansion and Widow Mines dictate that. Whoever states Widow Mines require a lot of micro, they require as much micro as pressing your Siege Mode hotkey on your Siege Tanks. One widow mine can take out a whole pack of main core of the Zerg army, which is Zerglings or Banelings. Roach/Hydra is really having a hard time against 3/3 Terran, and you cannot possibly survive out of it, nor can you "nicely" switch to Ultras because you are missing the upgrades (unless you go triple evo chamber, which I do not see working as Terran starves out the Zerg on gas). It's how cost-efficient it is, and Terran already has the most cost-efficient unit at disposal, and as we see, they just mass them. Quite frankly, it was not fun for me to watch Terran slowly drilling away the Zerg every game. Maybe it's the problem with the current meta and how pros played it out with their muta/ling/bling style, but they either finished the game with critical number of Mutas or they lost while stuck in Lair tech. Maybe Zerg should stay a bit more on 2 bases and apply pressure via Roaches or something. Oh well.
One possible way to encourage WM disposal with infestors is cheaper fungals.
Present muta/overseer style is too risky to be a main comp.
But old habits die hard.
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On August 26 2013 06:37 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 06:05 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 26 2013 05:57 Foxxan wrote:On August 26 2013 05:48 udgnim wrote:
bring back Lurker so Zerg will get their own set it and forget it unit
that will change how Terrans play marine / medivac / widow mine
BUT NOOOOO, Blizzard says Lurkers perform an action too similar to Banelings The more recent news is they have tried several times to implement the lurker but its to hard cuz of longrange units like the colossous lol. Yet they have no problem inventing factory units that can be healed by medivacs or mines that act like rocket launcher stations. In all honesty I dont see the point of lurker right now, they wont deal with mines, they wont deal with medivacs, they wont bring anything new to the table
They would deal with marines =D
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On August 26 2013 05:36 hansonslee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 05:27 manniefresh wrote:
Can we talk about how Drilling Claws upgrade is imba? It makes it so you never catch widow mines "unsieged".
Also Fungal needs a buff bad... I think a projectile speed buff would be a good answer. Thoughts? Yes, I agree! I think it's a good time to remove Drilling Claws.
Actually Zerg need a way to safely detect mines, same way Terran have scan and Protoss have observers, detection to changelings?
Changelings trigger mines? Propably imba because WMs trigger ontop of marines via changeling is a free kill for the Zerg. Or maybe it'll work out b/c the Terran now must kill the changeling or die to Widow mines. Hmmm
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EPT
