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On August 20 2013 13:36 Ouija wrote:
IMO all changes are unnecessary besides maybe the overseer speed buff. Combining air and mech attack upgrades does nothing to make mech stronger since mech units build out of a factory. Additionally, now terran can freely switch into 3/3 air after playing mech and turtling. The ultralisk health buff also feels a bit useless as I feel the unit is completely fine as is.
Response to timoi210 -- Maybe every single Zerg player should stop trying to play mass ling muta vs terran, teching up to hive is actually quite easy when you don't spend 1600+ gas on mutas and who know how much on banelings throughout the game. Widow mines and marines crush mutas and lings and when almost every terran plays bio mine style ling bane muta seems stupid to me. I don't like to criticize such high level players like jaedong but I felt like polt showed in the WCS America Finals how bad muta/ling/bane is against good bio mine players, and it also showed how stupid top level zergs are to do the same exact thing every single game. There are plenty of other strategies zergs can use vs T.
People have talked to death about not using muta/ling/bling styles and trying out others like roach/hydra, ling/roach/bling, or even ling/bling/corruptor but in the end, there's a reason muta/ling/bling is still being played by the top level pros and that's because that's the unit composition that gives them the most success and comfort in the game. As a T player, it's not my position to tell Zs how to play their race just like its not theirs to impose their ideas on T or P.
But even through my (relatively) biased eyes, I can see that though the game is fairly even on equal upgrades, the game drastically changes when Ts get out 3/3 upgrades. I love terran and their playstyle as much as I hate zerg and everything it stands for, but I'd also want people to appreciate just how good the top level Terrans are how good their control and decision making is compared to other merely good Terrans but we can't see that if a third of the SC2 population is calling out the "imbaness" of 4m.
I just want all races to equally see and root for members of the other race (except for zerg for me, no offense :D) without crying for balance and discussions ending into a flame war.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 13:36 Ouija wrote:
IMO all changes are unnecessary besides maybe the overseer speed buff. Combining air and mech attack upgrades does nothing to make mech stronger since mech units build out of a factory. Additionally, now terran can freely switch into 3/3 air after playing mech and turtling. The ultralisk health buff also feels a bit useless as I feel the unit is completely fine as is.
Response to timoi210 -- Maybe every single Zerg player should stop trying to play mass ling muta vs terran, teching up to hive is actually quite easy when you don't spend 1600+ gas on mutas and who know how much on banelings throughout the game. Widow mines and marines crush mutas and lings and when almost every terran plays bio mine style ling bane muta seems stupid to me. I don't like to criticize such high level players like jaedong but I felt like polt showed in the WCS America Finals how bad muta/ling/bane is against good bio mine players, and it also showed how stupid top level zergs are to do the same exact thing every single game. There are plenty of other strategies zergs can use vs T.
Example?
Roach Hydra? Dies.
Roach bane? Med-v count starts slowly rise and then terran units stop to die. Like in mutalingbane, but faster.
Point is: you need to deal with marines and only ling-bane is really good for that (well, fungal i heard is good too, but nowadays i heard it does not do nearly as much on it's own and rightfully so. And you need to deal with med-v: for that you have to have mutas now. Or pump over9000 gas in infestors and try to land right fungals. But yeah, ultralisk buff does not seem any good.
Merge of mech and air attack upgrades may lead us to ForGG vs LiquidHerO games but with 3-3 hellbats AND vikings, so i am more or less fine with that change.
On August 20 2013 13:48 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing. What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one?
I guess they mean that zerg has to keep up with terran in late game (Yep, with all 100500-pronged attacks, once ultras are out). Hence they are buffing unit that is easier to manage and is not early-midgame one.
On August 20 2013 13:46 lorestarcraft wrote:
And more protoss tears were shed...
Yeah, 2 more shots from immortal in trade of minute earlier hydra-roach-viper timing. Worth of crying, oh yea /s
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On August 20 2013 13:48 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing. What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one?
They said previously that the lategame aspects of ZvT were overly taxing on the Zerg in terms of injects, creep, widow mine dodging/sniping, and defending drops. So I guess the idea is to give a passive buff to a unit that only really attacks and doesn't have much of any micro requirements.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I'd prefer they reduce ultralisk size and allow them to step on zerglings (and only zerglings)
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On August 20 2013 13:48 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +Zerg looks to be struggling too much due to having too many things to tend to. Therefore, a buff to a unit that’s easier to manage, like the Ultralisk, could be a really strong direction for testing. What? Does it mean that Zerg has too many options, so they want to reduce them by "forcing" a certain one?
They are saying mines rape lings/blings/mutas if you dont pay attention, so they are giving ultras a boost to make them better to use against bio since they kinda just run over mines.
Dont agree with the change though.
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I'd really like them to experiment with moving Vipers to Lair tech and making abduct a Hive upgrade. Maybe even find a middle ground by requiring spire tech or even morphing from mutas/corruptors so it's tier 2.5 instead.
The major concerning aspect of that, however, is if it'd be too strong in ZvP. Muta switches are already deadly there and if you catch the toss without any templars or phoenix numbers well...blinding cloud is going to shit all over blink stalkers and photon cannons...
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The ultralisk change is going to affect sub-KR-GM levels very disproportionately, I feel. Of course, Blizzard should only balance for top-tier play - but if this goes through, we'll probably see a return to WoL-era race distribution in the foreigner scene.
That's the tricky thing about terran - it's much more difficult to master than toss and zerg, but it's also arguably the most effective at the highest levels.
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On August 20 2013 13:53 lichter wrote:
I'd prefer they reduce ultralisk size and allow them to step on zerglings (and only zerglings)
Step on or over?
If you mean over (and maybe even if you mean on), why not workers, marines, zealots and maybe banelings too? Smallest sized unit models makes sense.
They could make it that they step over any ALLIED (very) small units.
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Wait wait they need to buff Ultras even MORE? Please god no. Go revisit other units that need changes...like the viper.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 14:02 sevia wrote:
The ultralisk change is going to affect sub-KR-GM levels very disproportionately, I feel. Of course, Blizzard should only balance for top-tier play - but if this goes through, we'll probably see a return to WoL-era race distribution in the foreigner scene.
That's the tricky thing about terran - it's much more difficult to master than toss and zerg, but it's also arguably the most effective at the highest levels.
Well, i know i will have to use THAT word, but i will say it anyway: it is how race is DESIGNED. In BW it all worked because units were all retarded and managing their mental problems alone was a problem,
On August 20 2013 14:07 larse wrote:
Maybe I am the few people who are positive about the change.
First, Mech buff + no viper buff may really lead to a more possible mech TvZ, though it won't be the popular build.
Second, **not only is ZvT's transition a problem but the late-game is also a problem.** If you guys ever remember the reason why Soulkey likes to go for mid-game all-in even to today, it is that he doesn't want to play the scary late-game.
Third, the transition to ultra can get some small helps from the overseer buff.
First buff will only really affect TvP imo. mech TvZ is screwed by existence of viper, not it's energy. Viper buff would only screw up hydra-roach-viper timings (aka shift around minute earlier than now).
Second... well, we all saw how Soulkey dies once he ACTUALLY gets to ultras.
Third... overseer buff will only help with muta-ling-bane help, since now overseer won't die on retreat, once speed is done. It would still act as speed bump, but not as hard as it was before.
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Maybe I am the few people who are positive about the change.
First, Mech buff + no viper buff may really lead to a more possible mech TvZ, though it won't be the popular build.
Second, **not only is ZvT's transition a problem but the late-game is also a problem.** If you guys ever remember the reason why Soulkey likes to go for mid-game all-in even to today, it is that he doesn't want to play the scary late-game.
Third, the transition to ultra can get some small helps from the overseer buff.
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I fully agree with a buff, zerg at the moment is weaker then the other races. Late results are solid proof.
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Ultralisks are already a very strong unit in the late game it's the midgame that zerg players have a problem with -_-
Blizzard why.
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Would zvz or ZvP be completely broken if they just allowed 3/3 to be researched with infestation pit kind of like armory and twilight do for T/P?
The only thing that seemed broken in the recent highest level games was when zerg was stuck on 2/2 while terran had 3-3.
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Hm they are buffing zerg's best unit atm! I approve! But no seriously.. maybe buff mid game units and not our hive please we have like the best t3 now imo. Fix corruptors and swarm host would be nice though ^_^
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At least a little bit of sanity is left in their brains, Viper buff was just pure madness.. This sounds way more reasonable, although I'd prefer something like Blinding Cloud affecting mines then Ultra buff that is already pretty strong. But yeah, mech/skymech might be possible to pull off now.
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On August 20 2013 14:06 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 14:02 sevia wrote:
The ultralisk change is going to affect sub-KR-GM levels very disproportionately, I feel. Of course, Blizzard should only balance for top-tier play - but if this goes through, we'll probably see a return to WoL-era race distribution in the foreigner scene.
That's the tricky thing about terran - it's much more difficult to master than toss and zerg, but it's also arguably the most effective at the highest levels. Well, i know i will have to use THAT word, but i will say it anyway: it is how race is DESIGNED. In BW it all worked because units were all retarded and managing their mental problems alone was a problem, Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 14:07 larse wrote:
Maybe I am the few people who are positive about the change.
First, Mech buff + no viper buff may really lead to a more possible mech TvZ, though it won't be the popular build.
Second, **not only is ZvT's transition a problem but the late-game is also a problem.** If you guys ever remember the reason why Soulkey likes to go for mid-game all-in even to today, it is that he doesn't want to play the scary late-game.
Third, the transition to ultra can get some small helps from the overseer buff.
First buff will only really affect TvP imo. mech TvZ is screwed by existence of viper, not it's energy. Viper buff would only screw up hydra-roach-viper timings (aka shift around minute earlier than now). Second... well, we all saw how Soulkey dies once he ACTUALLY gets to ultras. Third... overseer buff will only help with muta-ling-bane help, since now overseer won't die on retreat, once speed is done. It would still act as speed bump, but not as hard as it was before.
Soulkey never actually gets to ultras in a comfortable position or sacrifices most his banes right before his ultras pop and then spends minutes defending with his ultras who get heavily damaged with no queen energy to spare nor time to heal and proceeds to get destroyed by innovation's main army.
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I'm not gonna balance whine, but seriously when are they fix the units that ISNT used instead of "fixing" standard meta units. Carrier, Battlecruiser, Brood Lord are Tier 3 units and yet they suck, it's still more effective to keep putting out Gateway or Barracks units, that is silly. There is no difference in 15min vs a 30min game atm since we are stuck with the same units through the whole game.
What's the point of having 35 units or whatever we have with all 3 races combined when atleast 5-7 are never used cause they suck. BW had the scout which was a joke, SC2 has the entire "lategame" unit category as a joke.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 14:29 Doko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 14:06 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 20 2013 14:02 sevia wrote:
The ultralisk change is going to affect sub-KR-GM levels very disproportionately, I feel. Of course, Blizzard should only balance for top-tier play - but if this goes through, we'll probably see a return to WoL-era race distribution in the foreigner scene.
That's the tricky thing about terran - it's much more difficult to master than toss and zerg, but it's also arguably the most effective at the highest levels. Well, i know i will have to use THAT word, but i will say it anyway: it is how race is DESIGNED. In BW it all worked because units were all retarded and managing their mental problems alone was a problem, On August 20 2013 14:07 larse wrote:
Maybe I am the few people who are positive about the change.
First, Mech buff + no viper buff may really lead to a more possible mech TvZ, though it won't be the popular build.
Second, **not only is ZvT's transition a problem but the late-game is also a problem.** If you guys ever remember the reason why Soulkey likes to go for mid-game all-in even to today, it is that he doesn't want to play the scary late-game.
Third, the transition to ultra can get some small helps from the overseer buff.
First buff will only really affect TvP imo. mech TvZ is screwed by existence of viper, not it's energy. Viper buff would only screw up hydra-roach-viper timings (aka shift around minute earlier than now). Second... well, we all saw how Soulkey dies once he ACTUALLY gets to ultras. Third... overseer buff will only help with muta-ling-bane help, since now overseer won't die on retreat, once speed is done. It would still act as speed bump, but not as hard as it was before. Soulkey never actually gets to ultras in a comfortable position or sacrifices most his banes right before his ultras pop and then spends minutes defending with his ultras who get heavily damaged with no queen energy to spare nor time to heal and proceeds to get destroyed by innovation's main army.
That's exactly what i mean. To be fair, it feels like Soulkey just refuses to die, while losing for 5 and more minutes straight. GG timing of sorts.
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On August 20 2013 14:30 Thinasy wrote:
I'm not gonna balance whine, but seriously when are they fix the units that ISNT used instead of "fixing" standard meta units. Carrier, Battlecruiser, Brood Lord are Tier 3 units and yet they suck, it's still more effective to keep putting out Gateway or Barracks units, that is silly. There is no difference in 15min vs a 30min game atm since we are stuck with the same units through the whole game.
What's the point of having 35 units or whatever we have with all 3 races combined when atleast 5-7 are never used cause they suck. BW had the scout which was a joke, SC2 has the entire "lategame" unit category as a joke.
Carriers are only there to look pretty and remind people that making them is a good skill toi have, battlecruisers are already good but take insanely long to get, broods are still good as well and will never see a buff cause of how stupidly biased people would be against it after the whole end of wol infestor broodlord extravaganza.
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EPT
