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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 14:30 Thinasy wrote:
I'm not gonna balance whine, but seriously when are they fix the units that ISNT used instead of "fixing" standard meta units. Carrier, Battlecruiser, Brood Lord are Tier 3 units and yet they suck, it's still more effective to keep putting out Gateway or Barracks units, that is silly. There is no difference in 15min vs a 30min game atm since we are stuck with the same units through the whole game.
What's the point of having 35 units or whatever we have with all 3 races combined when atleast 5-7 are never used cause they suck. BW had the scout which was a joke, SC2 has the entire "lategame" unit category as a joke.
I don't remember BCs used all that much outside of TvT in BW either. In TvP it looked like tank-goliaths-vulture-vessel-wraith all game long, maybe with occasional ghosts for lockdowns. In TvZ... well, either mech either bio with transition into mech. Also, Blizzard some time ago made it clear that most of late game units (especially carriers and Mommaship) are here for the sake of it, not for a real purpose.
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Yeah, that's the wrong change to make if they want to help zergs in lategame zvt.
What's interesting to me is that HOTS didn't give Terran anything specifically to fight against the BL+Infestor deathpush, like the Tempest does. I see two reasons why HOTS-era zergs don't do that anymore:
1. Fungal is harder to use.
and (by far the bigger one)
2. Terran midgame has become dramatically scarier, between speedvacs and widow mines, thus making it extremely hard or (in some cases) impossible for Zerg to comfortably get that momentum going. Zergs end up clinging desperately to Ling/Bane/Muta as the most efficient defense against the mindless berserker aggression that Terrans can pump out, and that becomes the focus of the entire game. In WoL, zergs could scrape by with a weaker but less gas-intensive defense, allowing them to tech to the late game and secure a win there.
If Blizz wants to help Zerg in late game, then they need to adjust the mid-game. However, in doing so they risk a return to the snorefest ZvTs of late WoL, where Terrans just can't put enough of a dent in the Zerg's momentum, until Zerg gets the unstoppable Brood Lord-based monstrosity going, which would be even stronger with Vipers.
The challenge they have, then, is to buff Zerg/nerf Terran midgame, while simultaneously nerfing Zerg/buffing Terran lategame, without having any impact on other matchups, so that the power balance remains *roughly* equivalent throughout the game. Power imbalances at different stages of the game are certainly interesting, but not to the extent of HOTS-era Terran midgame, or WOL-era Zerg lategame.
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After testing shows that viper timings were too strong when sped-up, people suggest moving viper down to lair tech. Please at least think about what you write before posting your gut reaction.
Infestation unlocking +3/+3 upgrade seems like it may accomplish the zerg buff better than the Ultra hp.
I feel like all the matchups would benefit from a nerf to T bio late game in exchange for stronger mech or air. As a result, Carrier and Broodlord could be adjusted depending on things turn out. This would not only shake up the meta, but increase the number of transitions that happen in a game.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 14:38 Hollis wrote:
Yeah, that's the wrong change to make if they want to help zergs in lategame zvt.
What's interesting to me is that HOTS didn't give Terran anything specifically to fight against the BL+Infestor deathpush, like the Tempest does. I see two reasons why HOTS-era zergs don't do that anymore:
1. Fungal is harder to use.
and (by far the bigger one)
2. Terran midgame has become dramatically scarier, between speedvacs and widow mines, thus making it extremely hard or (in some cases) impossible for Zerg to comfortably get that momentum going. Zergs end up clinging desperately to Ling/Bane/Muta as the most efficient defense against the mindless berserker aggression that Terrans can pump out, and that becomes the focus of the entire game. In WoL, zergs could scrape by with a weaker but less gas-intensive defense, allowing them to tech to the late game and secure a win there.
If Blizz wants to help Zerg in late game, then they need to adjust the mid-game. However, in doing so they risk a return to the snorefest ZvTs of late WoL, where Terrans just can't put enough of a dent in the Zerg's momentum, until Zerg gets the unstoppable Brood Lord-based monstrosity going, which would be even stronger with Vipers.
The challenge they have, then, is to buff Zerg/nerf Terran midgame, while simultaneously nerfing Zerg/buffing Terran lategame, without having any impact on other matchups, so that the power balance remains *roughly* equivalent throughout the game. Power imbalances at different stages of the game are certainly interesting, but not to the extent of HOTS-era Terran midgame, or WOL-era Zerg lategame.
Nerfed fungal, even more mineral heavy mid game army for terran and buff to raven (and ofc catch-me-if-you-can-medivac) do the trick against infestor BL, but it is still really good deathball, except that zergs don't get to live to it as easily as they did in WoL.
On August 20 2013 14:39 Darkstar_X wrote:
I feel like all the matchups would benefit from a nerf to T bio late game in exchange for stronger mech or air. As a result, Carrier and Broodlord could be adjusted depending on things turn out. This would not only shake up the meta, but increase the number of transitions that happen in a game.
Now that's really likeable idea.
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I find it really REALLY INTERESTING that Blzzard are thinking that Ultras need a health buff.
Because we have seen how Ultras wreck when the Zerg actually brings out transfuses..
But hey hopefully this is actually not going in 
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Ultra health buff?
Blizzard must be desperate not to nerf widow mines.
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On August 20 2013 14:39 Darkstar_X wrote:
Infestation unlocking +3/+3 upgrade seems like it may accomplish the zerg buff better than the Ultra hp.
I like this, because it makes it more parallel to the armory and the twilight council. Hive is still the gateway to hive tech, but maybe +3 along the same path would just smooth over the tvz timings that are really sharp right now.
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Rushing fully upgraded ultralisks will now be 17x times more viable versus bronze!
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Who here would rather get Ultralisk charge back?
Get a chance to kill the bio before they kite back into 15 widow mines and kill your Ultras anyway.
Or maybe +1-2 cast range on Fungal, espcially with it being a projectile instead of storm like. Gives you more of a chance to lead your target. Hard enough to get fungals close enough at a time when you want to land them.
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just make widow mine splash marginally smaller. Still nearly as effective vs protoss, but less effective at smashing 239009 lings or banes.
or marginally reduce hp on widow mine. doesn't need 90 hp lol.
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I thought they wanted the viper to be more used in ZvT, and now they're about to give a passive buff to the ultra. I'm lost.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 15:27 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
I thought they wanted the viper being more used in ZvT, and now they're about to give a passive buff to the ultra. I'm lost.
They figured out that viper is only good about stuff nobody plays because viper is good, while hydra-roach-viper timings in PvZ may become even deadlier. Like with tempests and brood lords in PvZ :D
On August 20 2013 15:24 Sufinsil wrote:
Who here would rather get Ultralisk charge back?
Get a chance to kill the bio before they kite back into 15 widow mines and kill your Ultras anyway.
Or maybe +1-2 cast range on Fungal, espcially with it being a projectile instead of storm like. Gives you more of a chance to lead your target. Hard enough to get fungals close enough at a time when you want to land them.
Fungals are already have got their range buffed from 9 to 10 AFAIK (together with projectile change).
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the buff to warp prism for example had a clear goal and design vision behind it which is exactly what is lacking with these "lazy" changes
also they should adress early game instead imo, zerg got absolutely nothing that changes how the early game is played, no new options, no new aggressive options and absolutely no fun options
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On August 20 2013 15:02 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 14:39 Darkstar_X wrote:
Infestation unlocking +3/+3 upgrade seems like it may accomplish the zerg buff better than the Ultra hp.
I like this, because it makes it more parallel to the armory and the twilight council. Hive is still the gateway to hive tech, but maybe +3 along the same path would just smooth over the tvz timings that are really sharp right now.
Interesting, but isn't the Infestation Pit a must-have for Zergs anyway? They are bound to get Infestors eventually, so the Pit can be seen as "no extra cost" whereas the Terran Armory is not used at all in Biomine.
Personally, I feel that the main problem with Hive is not its cost, or its Infestation Pit requirement. The main problem is that Hive just takes too long to upgrade! What that means is if you want continuous upgrades, you have to start your Infestation Pit/Hive earlier, which is more draining on resources than if they were started later. However, if you start them too late, Terran's 3/3 will have a great timing window to just kill you.
Then again, Hive tech is incredibly strong and letting it come out too quickly would be dangerous... still, even if Zerg gets Hive out quickly, there is still time required to build Ultralisk Dens and Greater Spires and Adrenal Glands, so I think it might be acceptable to reduce Hive upgrade time?
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The Overseer speed buff is reasonable,whilst the other 2 buffs i would say no.But me personally its Zergs mid tier units v Terran are the problem. Mutas are currently the only mid game unit that's effective and cost efficient
Why cant they tweak the swarmhost in some way or the hydra, both these units barely get used unless its verses Protoss
This whole game is turning into a race of who can get to 3/3 upgrades the fastest btw, its a ridiculous way to play and i would rather see the upgrade speeds nerfed for all 3 races rather than buffed yet again
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 16:04 Entirety wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 15:02 darkscream wrote:On August 20 2013 14:39 Darkstar_X wrote:
Infestation unlocking +3/+3 upgrade seems like it may accomplish the zerg buff better than the Ultra hp.
I like this, because it makes it more parallel to the armory and the twilight council. Hive is still the gateway to hive tech, but maybe +3 along the same path would just smooth over the tvz timings that are really sharp right now. Interesting, but isn't the Infestation Pit a must-have for Zergs anyway? They are bound to get Infestors eventually, so the Pit can be seen as "no extra cost" whereas the Terran Armory is not used at all in Biomine. Personally, I feel that the main problem with Hive is not its cost, or its Infestation Pit requirement. The main problem is that Hive just takes too long to upgrade! What that means is if you want continuous upgrades, you have to start your Infestation Pit/Hive earlier, which is more draining on resources than if they were started later. However, if you start them too late, Terran's 3/3 will have a great timing window to just kill you. Then again, Hive tech is incredibly strong and letting it come out too quickly would be dangerous... still, even if Zerg gets Hive out quickly, there is still time required to build Ultralisk Dens and Greater Spires and Adrenal Glands, so I think it might be acceptable to reduce Hive upgrade time?
Pit is extra cost when you are playing muta ling bane, but then again, infestors are a transition. The same way terran may end up transitioning into ravens when playing bio mine. Also, imo allowing hive tech to appear quicker is not the way. I liked the idea of unlocking 3-3 pre-hive though. Really liked D:
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Even if Terran transitions into Ravens, he won't be using that Armory.
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buffing things is a better solution than nerfing things.
gj blizz
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i know that you guys all really like the approach of buffing instead of nerfing, but this is getting out of hand
nerfing the widow mine very slightly is the better option than going for this crazy ultralisk buff
ultras are already strong enough in zvp, look at scarlett vs super
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EPT
