EPT(2)Fantasy Realm
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jU9i4px.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nu1u8gU.jpg)
Information:
Size: 144x144
Titleset: Korhal + Belshir + Monlyth
Watchtowers: 0
Bases: 12 8M2G
Rocks: 0
Date began: December 9, 2012
Current Version: 1.2
+ Show Spoiler [Previous versions] +
[M] (2) Fantasy Realm
| Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games |
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
Information: + Show Spoiler [Previous versions] + | ||
|
moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
| ||
|
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On June 03 2013 00:22 moskonia wrote: May you post a pic that has no angle? Its a bit hard to read for me. Done! The picture is also slightly newer. | ||
|
moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
| ||
|
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
Here are two complete walls, one for each of terran/protoss, that cover the entire width; these are slightly harder to do. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/heweIMC.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NWhTim5.jpg) | ||
|
WedRine
Denmark64 Posts
On June 03 2013 03:03 The_Templar wrote: There's a 9 hex wide gap between a nexus/CC at the natural and the main ramp that is wallable, although it doesn't quite protect the mineral line. To protect the mineral line properly this way, you'd have to place a 3x3 building next to the outer geyser and protect the space between the geyser and the CC/Nexus Here are two complete walls, one for each of terran/protoss, that cover the entire width; these are slightly harder to do. + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + Wow, that seams like a pretty huge choke to defend... hmm maybe some rocks or unpathable terrain could make it a little easier to wall off. - I mean how is a protoss supposed to FFE here... | ||
|
SamirDuran
Philippines894 Posts
| ||
|
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On June 03 2013 03:35 WedRine wrote: Wow, that seams like a pretty huge choke to defend... hmm maybe some rocks or unpathable terrain could make it a little easier to wall off. - I mean how is a protoss supposed to FFE here... Yeah, I guess. I'll probably just make the chokes less wide. On June 03 2013 03:35 SamirDuran wrote: this map reminds me of bifrost in proleague ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qeG5a2C.jpg) Not seeing it :/ | ||
|
InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On June 03 2013 03:35 WedRine wrote: Wow, that seams like a pretty huge choke to defend... hmm maybe some rocks or unpathable terrain could make it a little easier to wall off. - I mean how is a protoss supposed to FFE here... Excuse me if I'm wrong here, but I thought maps were supposed to dictate the strategies, not the other way around? | ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 03 2013 04:35 InfCereal wrote: Excuse me if I'm wrong here, but I thought maps were supposed to dictate the strategies, not the other way around? If Protoss can't FFE, the map is imbalanced. Straight forward. | ||
|
InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On June 03 2013 04:42 Big J wrote: If Protoss can't FFE, the map is imbalanced. Straight forward. So it's like ramps to the main, sort of thing? Out of curiosity, would other protoss expansion builds become more viable as the map size decreases? I know FFE never became standard until the maps opened up more. | ||
|
moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yJzoFfz.jpg) This allows a nexus wall as well as a choke wall while keeping both entrances. If you want to keep a wide entrance while still having the possibility of FFE you should just change the mineral line placement while not removing pathable ground. | ||
|
-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
As for the aesthetics, I think the grass/ruins textures + skyscraper cliffs just don't really match. I think the combined terran/protoss thing could work, but you should at least use different, matching cliff types for each section. | ||
|
SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + loooooool, sorry when I saw your Meme you posted in the meme thread, I've been waiting for you to make a new map so I could say it :D Anyway, I do think the natural is a little too unsafe. Between the rather large dual entrances and the way the mineral line is placed means it might be quite hard to actually expand. With that said though, it's mainly Protoss that have trouble expanding but with HotS and Photon Overcharge it isn't as bad anymore, so maybe it's something that could just use some testing. I think you have too much dead air space around the map. I feel you could shrink the map by a good chunk and it'd just cut out a lot of the air space. Remember, Air play & Harassment is a lot stronger in HotS then it was in WoL, so having a ton of extra dead air space isn't necessarily a good thing. I'm also not a huge fan of the 5 & 11 o clock bases and their terrain layout. It's kinda boring imo. All flat then a base on a raised ground. I think you could completely take out one of the ramps and probably put collapsable towers on the 1 remanding ramp, so either you can take the base, transfer workers then destroy the rocks and you'll be on a semi-island, the enemy could also take the rocks out to make it tougher to expand there, could move up the ramp, kill the tower and kill the base, etc etc etc. Just a lot you could do with it to make the corner bases more interesting. Doodads. Come on baby, open up that doodad list and go wild like I know you can. | ||
|
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On June 03 2013 06:18 moskonia wrote: I have a fix for your nat: This allows a nexus wall as well as a choke wall while keeping both entrances. If you want to keep a wide entrance while still having the possibility of FFE you should just change the mineral line placement while not removing pathable ground. Nice! I'll give that a shot. On June 03 2013 06:41 -NegativeZero- wrote: Alternatively you could just put a rock tower to collapse onto the ramp to create a single choke if you want. Regardless, you should move the natural resources anyway so they're less vulnerable from the low ground. -stuff about Templar aesthetics being awful- The map was originally created in WoL, I can't use rock towers as far as I can tell :/ On June 03 2013 08:31 SidianTheBard wrote: The_Templar, you posted in the wrong thread, there's a WIP thread at the top of the custom maps forum. + Show Spoiler + loooooool, sorry when I saw your Meme you posted in the meme thread, I've been waiting for you to make a new map so I could say it :D Anyway, I do think the natural is a little too unsafe. Between the rather large dual entrances and the way the mineral line is placed means it might be quite hard to actually expand. With that said though, it's mainly Protoss that have trouble expanding but with HotS and Photon Overcharge it isn't as bad anymore, so maybe it's something that could just use some testing. I think you have too much dead air space around the map. I feel you could shrink the map by a good chunk and it'd just cut out a lot of the air space. Remember, Air play & Harassment is a lot stronger in HotS then it was in WoL, so having a ton of extra dead air space isn't necessarily a good thing. I'm also not a huge fan of the 5 & 11 o clock bases and their terrain layout. It's kinda boring imo. All flat then a base on a raised ground. I think you could completely take out one of the ramps and probably put collapsable towers on the 1 remanding ramp, so either you can take the base, transfer workers then destroy the rocks and you'll be on a semi-island, the enemy could also take the rocks out to make it tougher to expand there, could move up the ramp, kill the tower and kill the base, etc etc etc. Just a lot you could do with it to make the corner bases more interesting. Doodads. Come on baby, open up that doodad list and go wild like I know you can. Argghhh, I knew you'd do that eventually. :D The natural is already being worked on, and I'll look into the top base. I wasn't initially sure on what to do with it. As for doodads, I tried that already!!!  but I can try it again, it'll just be messy. | ||
|
EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
| ||
|
moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
| ||
|
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
Still waiting for EatThePath's picture of changes  | ||
|
EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
 [edit] ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nUbcKR3.jpg) Okay, so. There's quite a few things going on here so I'll try to cover them all without forgetting any but in a concise manner. First, I drew two sets of options divided by the big magenta line. The left side is one idea, the right side is a separate idea. You could combine pieces of either, but obviously it's not a complete picture since the map would be asymmetrical. One of the "big picture" problems with your original map is that there are 4-5 bases pretty close together. Yes, there are some different routes into them and you can't defend perfectly by sitting in the average distance between them, but it's still very little work or worry positionally. So the first thing I thought about was how to pull those bases apart. Originally, you have 3 options for 3rd bases. I changed it so there is a distinct close 3rd, a forward 3rd (unchanged), and a farther base that will probably be 4th/5th. On the right side, I left the lowground 3rd intact. This base is too open I think, but I didn't draw any changes because I covered that in the other side of the picture. I moved the base hugging the main cliff much farther north to a pocket that is vulnerable from the lowground and is separated from your cluster by a large open area. There is also a new ramp with rocks on it that helps with lategame mobility, and it also adds to the danger of that open area. Even though it is distant, it is also a long and roundabout attack distance until the rocks are broken. On the left side I took the opposite approach. I moved the cliff-hug 3rd just barely farther away, but this was mainly to rotate it because I adjusted the ramp nearby, which shifted a little closer to the middle. The lowground base is the 4th/5th, and it is farther away than it used to be. Obviously you'll also notice the big slanting hole in the ground breaking up the lowground space. This creates chokepoints that can be used defensively or offensively if you can position yourself, but there is still a lot of open space. That base is also vulnerable from the corner highground. The closer ramp is only 2x, and the farther ramp is 4x. This makes it harder to move through the short way between the bases but there is no bottleneck if you want to take the tower/highground from the middle. Tower might be too strong lategame so it's just an idea but could be left out. It is meant to be easy for offense and hard to use for defensive turtling. The natural was changed just a bit. The mineral line was rotated towards the main in order to make room for small pillars on either side of the total entryway to narrow the chokepoint. On many maps, we now have natural chokes that require 4 3x3 buildings to wall, aka 12 squares. I think your map would be fine with 10-13 squares. A 13 square choke can be FFE'd although it is obviously a little more vulnerable to rushes and certain kinds of attacks. In fact the rush distance is fairly long here so I think that's fine. Another factor is that the pathway for the attacker to back up, go around, and come in the other way is really really long, and it is also narrow at several points. On most maps the area outside the natural is comparatively open, whereas here it is narrow. This makes it easy for the defender to push out and chase away attacks (especially for protoss armies based on forcefield). I think this is one of the defining features of the map and a strong concept to make it stand out, so I wouldn't abandon it. That's just my personal taste though. You could also add pillar(s) on the outer edge of the main ramp, making it easy to wall off ramp <--> nexus. And of course pillars could be doodads / whatever obstruction you want. Really this is just a visual brainstorm, so don't feel like this is a list of "fixes". There are lots of tweaks you could make to this map to adjust any problem areas. Anyway I really like the concept of the map, and if the map isn't working, it needs to be tinkered with more, not the concept. I don't think this is a case where you can "standard-ize" it into submission. | ||
| ||
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zEQISOz.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ccKAtm1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AFvmfim.jpg)
