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Active: 1848 users

[Aligulac May 15 list] ForGGeddon averted, for now

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
TheBB
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Switzerland5133 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-24 07:03:08
May 16 2013 13:28 GMT
#1
Specific feedback and feature requests should go here: Aligulac.com changelog and feedback thread

We have a FAQ here. FAQ means Frequently Asked Questions. Odds are your Question is Frequently Asked.

For those of us who are interested in this sort of thing, the last few weeks have been tense, as ForGG keeps threatening to overtake Life on the Aligulac rating list, unleashing what we have dubbed the ForGGeddon. He came within three points of managing, too, but thanks to TLO and MarineKing, it was not to be. Polt now rears his ugly (not really) head. Will we see the Poltocalypse instead?

For now, anyway.
  1. kr Life 1883 (-30: WCS KR, GSTL)
  2. kr ForGG 1865 (-8: WCS EU)
  3. kr Polt 1859 (+30: ZOTAC, WCS AM, Gigabyte Quals)
  4. kr Leenock 1832 (-5: WCS KR)
  5. es LucifroN 1815 (+39: LVP, gNations, EIZO)
  6. kr Flash 1793 (+19: WCS KR, Proleague)
  7. kr PartinG 1792 (-14: WCS KR, Proleague)
  8. kr Bomber 1787 (-12: GSTL)
  9. kr viOLet 1763 (+20: WCS AM, GSTL)
  10. kr Symbol 1745 (+18: WCS KR, GSTL)
The foreigner list:
  1. es LucifroN 1815 (+39: LVP, gNations, EIZO)
  2. tw Sen 1684 (-27: TeSL, WCS AM)
  3. [image loading] Happy 1654 (+60: EnerJ, Russia vs. Ukraine, Yegalisk MC, EIZO, WCS EU)
  4. es VortiX 1653 (-36: LVP, WCS EU)
  5. ua Kas 1644 (+26: WCS EU, Roccat, Russia vs. Ukraine, Yegalisk MC, Gigabyte Quals, EIZO)
  6. fi Welmu 1630 (+75: EMS, WCS EU Quals, SC2.fi, M-House Quals)
  7. no Snute 1594 (-17: ATC, Proleague)
  8. ca Scarlett 1584 (+28: ATC, WCS AM, gNations)
  9. cn Jim 1577 (+47: WCS AM)
  10. fr Stephano 1575 (-31: WCS EU, EIZO, Gigabyte Quals)
(Russian flag is bugged. Извините!)

Much has been written about whether the heterogeneous SCII scene ruins the ratings. I have some things to show you relating this.

First of all, here is a chart showing how many points Koreans "steal" from foreigners per game they play. As you can see graph tends strongly to the positive side, which indicates (as expected) that Koreans as a whole are underrated. When this graph stabilizes somewhere around zero (over time, of course it will always fluctuate), we can say that the ratings have caught up.

[image loading]

At least it seems that Koreans steal fewer points now than they used to, indicating that the rating error isn't as large any more as it was before. If we accept that the red line is a good fit (which it isn't, but whatever), it predicts that we will achieve balance sometime in the second half of 2014.

So yeah, patience is a virtue y'all.

[image loading]

This is another chart showing some of the difficulty I'm trying to bridge by tweaking parameters. This is the familiar predictive power plot, showing different scenes (note that this is from my experiments, and doesn't show the true situation using the actual parameters in production on aligulac.com). The tendency is always that predictions in Korea are weaker than elsewhere. Why is this? Beats me! I've tried weighing KR vs. KR games heavier, but this paradoxically has the opposite effect, and makes the problem worse.

Many of you have probably noticed that international predictions tend to be much more reliable than Korean ones. Well, here you see why (well not really, but at least you have it confirmed). There are vastly more international games in the database, and so the parameters have mostly been optimized with those games in mind. This is something I'm trying to fix, but it's not easy.

Thirdly, just because a player is rated ahead of someone else, doesn't necessarily mean he is better (or that you should think he is). I've written a small new feature for this which can calculate p-values comparing two players directly: http://aligulac.com/compare/

If the p-values are larger than, say, 0.05, then you're not really statistically justified in claiming one to be better than the other.

As a rule of thumb, there should be a rating difference of 250 points (overall) or 450 (matchup ratings) before you can go blowing your horns about.

So for example, just because the ratings have Lucifron > Innovation, this is with p=0.35. This is not significant.

So yeah... let the discussion commence. And don't forget to PM me if you're interested in actually doing something.

Shout outs this week for Kaelaris and Nicolai Czempin for their show during the WCS EU Premier Ro16 Group A broadcast!
http://aligulac.com || Barcraft Switzerland! || Zerg best race. || Stats-poster extraordinaire.
Tsubbi
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7996 Posts
May 16 2013 13:29 GMT
#2
but didnt your list hear tasteless saying innovation is the best rts player of all time!?

kidding, awesome work as always
E.L.V.I.S
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium458 Posts
May 16 2013 13:55 GMT
#3
Do it really make sense to put ForGG in the korean ranking... he plays only in foreign tournaments oO
http://twitch.tv/maggrig | @SC2ELVIS | http://www.facebook.com/sc2ELVIS
Conti
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany2516 Posts
May 16 2013 13:56 GMT
#4
On May 16 2013 22:55 E.L.V.I.S wrote:
Do it really make sense to put ForGG in the korean ranking... he plays only in foreign tournaments oO

So does Polt, eh?
TheBB
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Switzerland5133 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-16 13:58:11
May 16 2013 13:57 GMT
#5
On May 16 2013 22:55 E.L.V.I.S wrote:
Do it really make sense to put ForGG in the korean ranking... he plays only in foreign tournaments oO

It's not a Korean ranking, it's a worldwide one.

Lucifron is there too, after all.
http://aligulac.com || Barcraft Switzerland! || Zerg best race. || Stats-poster extraordinaire.
synd
Profile Joined July 2011
Bulgaria586 Posts
May 16 2013 13:57 GMT
#6
The foreigner list looks extremely bullshit
DifuntO
Profile Joined November 2011
Greece2376 Posts
May 16 2013 14:04 GMT
#7
On May 16 2013 22:57 synd wrote:
The foreigner list looks extremely bullshit


Why do you say that? It seems fine to me.

Maybe Welmu shouldn't be there but other than that i don't see anything crazy.
All I do is Stim.
Conti
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany2516 Posts
May 16 2013 14:14 GMT
#8
Fun fact: NAKSEO (formerly Monster) is the highest rated player who is not in any of the WCS (either premier or challenger) in the current season.
jjakji is the second highest rated player, while fraer is the highest rated foreigner with no WCS participation.
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
May 16 2013 14:22 GMT
#9
How many times has it happened until now, that a foreigner like Lucifron manage to pierce into the Top 10 worldwide? :o
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4742 Posts
May 16 2013 14:23 GMT
#10
Well most important difference between Korean tournament games and rest of the world is amount of preparation/time put into each game. Korean teams put a lot of power into developing new strategies vs specyfic oponnents on specyfic maps, find their weaknesess, the preparation time is very long and often involves a lot of players. This is in oposition to foreign tournaments which tend to be shorter and involve a lot games in small amount of time, leaving little room for prepartions and studing oponnents (excluding WCS obviously).
So perhaps You can take that into account somehow.
Like for GSL is raw player strange + preparation strenght, and preparation is function of coach (their experience), strenght of the players on the team, amount of them available for practice (if for example only one player from team is still playing gsl that means whole team can be devoted to help him).
Pathetic Greta hater.
blackbrrd
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway477 Posts
May 16 2013 14:23 GMT
#11
There are no labels of what is what on the predicted vs actual chart, making it kinda hard to read for me.
Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3813 Posts
May 16 2013 14:29 GMT
#12
[image loading]
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
TheBB
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Switzerland5133 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-16 14:32:02
May 16 2013 14:31 GMT
#13
On May 16 2013 23:22 JustPassingBy wrote:
How many times has it happened until now, that a foreigner like Lucifron manage to pierce into the Top 10 worldwide? :o

It actually gets harder the longer we wait. Previously it was much more common. Since February 2012 the only ones to do it were Lucifron, Vortix, Sen, Stephano and Nerchio.

On May 16 2013 23:23 blackbrrd wrote:
There are no labels of what is what on the predicted vs actual chart, making it kinda hard to read for me.

It's exactly the same as the normal one. http://static.aligulac.com/predict.png

I removed them because it got cluttered with four times the same information.
http://aligulac.com || Barcraft Switzerland! || Zerg best race. || Stats-poster extraordinaire.
Ragnarork
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
France9034 Posts
May 16 2013 14:35 GMT
#14
On May 16 2013 22:57 synd wrote:
The foreigner list looks extremely bullshit


Damn maths, making the foreigner list not looking what fans would like it to look like.
LiquipediaWanderer
StarVe
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany13591 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-16 14:45:49
May 16 2013 14:42 GMT
#15
The real foreigner list, by popular demand.

  1. de TLO
  2. se Naniwa
  3. ca Scarlett
  4. nl Grubby
  5. ca HuK
  6. ua White-Ra
  7. se ThorZaIN
  8. uk Demuslim
  9. us IdrA
  10. de TLO
  11. kr Dragon


Trust me, guys, it's totally based on some numbers.
Conti
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany2516 Posts
May 16 2013 14:46 GMT
#16
I fully approve of TLO being in the top 10 twice.
Rostam
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2552 Posts
May 16 2013 14:51 GMT
#17
Flash could surpass Lucifron soon. Someone should contact him and let him know about this accomplishment.

Thanks for all the work you guys put into this site, it's a really nice resource.
BW forever || Thall
Wakamex
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada47 Posts
May 16 2013 14:52 GMT
#18
Excellent writeup. I'd be curious about the accuracy and point transfer between KeSPA and ieSF pools!
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
May 16 2013 14:56 GMT
#19
On May 16 2013 23:42 StarVe wrote:
The real foreigner list, by popular demand.

  1. de TLO
  2. se Naniwa
  3. ca Scarlett
  4. nl Grubby
  5. ca HuK
  6. ua White-Ra
  7. se ThorZaIN
  8. uk Demuslim
  9. us IdrA
  10. de TLO
  11. kr Dragon


Trust me, guys, it's totally based on some numbers.

Sad to see Destiny out of the top 10.
Big-t
Profile Joined January 2011
Austria1350 Posts
May 16 2013 15:13 GMT
#20
Why is TLO not on the list and who is jim?
monchi | IdrA | Flash
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