• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:10
CEST 15:10
KST 22:10
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
2v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature0Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy8uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event17Serral wins EWC 202549Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple6SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments7[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time 2v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature Is there a way to see if 2 accounts=1 person? uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments SEL Masters #5 - Korea vs Russia (SC Evo) Enki Epic Series #5 - TaeJa vs Classic (SC Evo) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL 20 HYPE VIDEO! Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced BW AKA finder tool ASL20 Pre-season Tier List ranking!
Tourneys
Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches KCM 2025 Season 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI The year 2050
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Biochemical Cost of Gami…
TrAiDoS
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 885 users

[Aligulac May 15 list] ForGGeddon averted, for now

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
TheBB
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Switzerland5133 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-24 07:03:08
May 16 2013 13:28 GMT
#1
Specific feedback and feature requests should go here: Aligulac.com changelog and feedback thread

We have a FAQ here. FAQ means Frequently Asked Questions. Odds are your Question is Frequently Asked.

For those of us who are interested in this sort of thing, the last few weeks have been tense, as ForGG keeps threatening to overtake Life on the Aligulac rating list, unleashing what we have dubbed the ForGGeddon. He came within three points of managing, too, but thanks to TLO and MarineKing, it was not to be. Polt now rears his ugly (not really) head. Will we see the Poltocalypse instead?

For now, anyway.
  1. kr Life 1883 (-30: WCS KR, GSTL)
  2. kr ForGG 1865 (-8: WCS EU)
  3. kr Polt 1859 (+30: ZOTAC, WCS AM, Gigabyte Quals)
  4. kr Leenock 1832 (-5: WCS KR)
  5. es LucifroN 1815 (+39: LVP, gNations, EIZO)
  6. kr Flash 1793 (+19: WCS KR, Proleague)
  7. kr PartinG 1792 (-14: WCS KR, Proleague)
  8. kr Bomber 1787 (-12: GSTL)
  9. kr viOLet 1763 (+20: WCS AM, GSTL)
  10. kr Symbol 1745 (+18: WCS KR, GSTL)
The foreigner list:
  1. es LucifroN 1815 (+39: LVP, gNations, EIZO)
  2. tw Sen 1684 (-27: TeSL, WCS AM)
  3. [image loading] Happy 1654 (+60: EnerJ, Russia vs. Ukraine, Yegalisk MC, EIZO, WCS EU)
  4. es VortiX 1653 (-36: LVP, WCS EU)
  5. ua Kas 1644 (+26: WCS EU, Roccat, Russia vs. Ukraine, Yegalisk MC, Gigabyte Quals, EIZO)
  6. fi Welmu 1630 (+75: EMS, WCS EU Quals, SC2.fi, M-House Quals)
  7. no Snute 1594 (-17: ATC, Proleague)
  8. ca Scarlett 1584 (+28: ATC, WCS AM, gNations)
  9. cn Jim 1577 (+47: WCS AM)
  10. fr Stephano 1575 (-31: WCS EU, EIZO, Gigabyte Quals)
(Russian flag is bugged. Извините!)

Much has been written about whether the heterogeneous SCII scene ruins the ratings. I have some things to show you relating this.

First of all, here is a chart showing how many points Koreans "steal" from foreigners per game they play. As you can see graph tends strongly to the positive side, which indicates (as expected) that Koreans as a whole are underrated. When this graph stabilizes somewhere around zero (over time, of course it will always fluctuate), we can say that the ratings have caught up.

[image loading]

At least it seems that Koreans steal fewer points now than they used to, indicating that the rating error isn't as large any more as it was before. If we accept that the red line is a good fit (which it isn't, but whatever), it predicts that we will achieve balance sometime in the second half of 2014.

So yeah, patience is a virtue y'all.

[image loading]

This is another chart showing some of the difficulty I'm trying to bridge by tweaking parameters. This is the familiar predictive power plot, showing different scenes (note that this is from my experiments, and doesn't show the true situation using the actual parameters in production on aligulac.com). The tendency is always that predictions in Korea are weaker than elsewhere. Why is this? Beats me! I've tried weighing KR vs. KR games heavier, but this paradoxically has the opposite effect, and makes the problem worse.

Many of you have probably noticed that international predictions tend to be much more reliable than Korean ones. Well, here you see why (well not really, but at least you have it confirmed). There are vastly more international games in the database, and so the parameters have mostly been optimized with those games in mind. This is something I'm trying to fix, but it's not easy.

Thirdly, just because a player is rated ahead of someone else, doesn't necessarily mean he is better (or that you should think he is). I've written a small new feature for this which can calculate p-values comparing two players directly: http://aligulac.com/compare/

If the p-values are larger than, say, 0.05, then you're not really statistically justified in claiming one to be better than the other.

As a rule of thumb, there should be a rating difference of 250 points (overall) or 450 (matchup ratings) before you can go blowing your horns about.

So for example, just because the ratings have Lucifron > Innovation, this is with p=0.35. This is not significant.

So yeah... let the discussion commence. And don't forget to PM me if you're interested in actually doing something.

Shout outs this week for Kaelaris and Nicolai Czempin for their show during the WCS EU Premier Ro16 Group A broadcast!
http://aligulac.com || Barcraft Switzerland! || Zerg best race. || Stats-poster extraordinaire.
Tsubbi
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7996 Posts
May 16 2013 13:29 GMT
#2
but didnt your list hear tasteless saying innovation is the best rts player of all time!?

kidding, awesome work as always
E.L.V.I.S
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium458 Posts
May 16 2013 13:55 GMT
#3
Do it really make sense to put ForGG in the korean ranking... he plays only in foreign tournaments oO
http://twitch.tv/maggrig | @SC2ELVIS | http://www.facebook.com/sc2ELVIS
Conti
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany2516 Posts
May 16 2013 13:56 GMT
#4
On May 16 2013 22:55 E.L.V.I.S wrote:
Do it really make sense to put ForGG in the korean ranking... he plays only in foreign tournaments oO

So does Polt, eh?
TheBB
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Switzerland5133 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-16 13:58:11
May 16 2013 13:57 GMT
#5
On May 16 2013 22:55 E.L.V.I.S wrote:
Do it really make sense to put ForGG in the korean ranking... he plays only in foreign tournaments oO

It's not a Korean ranking, it's a worldwide one.

Lucifron is there too, after all.
http://aligulac.com || Barcraft Switzerland! || Zerg best race. || Stats-poster extraordinaire.
synd
Profile Joined July 2011
Bulgaria586 Posts
May 16 2013 13:57 GMT
#6
The foreigner list looks extremely bullshit
DifuntO
Profile Joined November 2011
Greece2376 Posts
May 16 2013 14:04 GMT
#7
On May 16 2013 22:57 synd wrote:
The foreigner list looks extremely bullshit


Why do you say that? It seems fine to me.

Maybe Welmu shouldn't be there but other than that i don't see anything crazy.
All I do is Stim.
Conti
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany2516 Posts
May 16 2013 14:14 GMT
#8
Fun fact: NAKSEO (formerly Monster) is the highest rated player who is not in any of the WCS (either premier or challenger) in the current season.
jjakji is the second highest rated player, while fraer is the highest rated foreigner with no WCS participation.
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
May 16 2013 14:22 GMT
#9
How many times has it happened until now, that a foreigner like Lucifron manage to pierce into the Top 10 worldwide? :o
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4730 Posts
May 16 2013 14:23 GMT
#10
Well most important difference between Korean tournament games and rest of the world is amount of preparation/time put into each game. Korean teams put a lot of power into developing new strategies vs specyfic oponnents on specyfic maps, find their weaknesess, the preparation time is very long and often involves a lot of players. This is in oposition to foreign tournaments which tend to be shorter and involve a lot games in small amount of time, leaving little room for prepartions and studing oponnents (excluding WCS obviously).
So perhaps You can take that into account somehow.
Like for GSL is raw player strange + preparation strenght, and preparation is function of coach (their experience), strenght of the players on the team, amount of them available for practice (if for example only one player from team is still playing gsl that means whole team can be devoted to help him).
Pathetic Greta hater.
blackbrrd
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway477 Posts
May 16 2013 14:23 GMT
#11
There are no labels of what is what on the predicted vs actual chart, making it kinda hard to read for me.
Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3805 Posts
May 16 2013 14:29 GMT
#12
[image loading]
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
TheBB
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Switzerland5133 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-16 14:32:02
May 16 2013 14:31 GMT
#13
On May 16 2013 23:22 JustPassingBy wrote:
How many times has it happened until now, that a foreigner like Lucifron manage to pierce into the Top 10 worldwide? :o

It actually gets harder the longer we wait. Previously it was much more common. Since February 2012 the only ones to do it were Lucifron, Vortix, Sen, Stephano and Nerchio.

On May 16 2013 23:23 blackbrrd wrote:
There are no labels of what is what on the predicted vs actual chart, making it kinda hard to read for me.

It's exactly the same as the normal one. http://static.aligulac.com/predict.png

I removed them because it got cluttered with four times the same information.
http://aligulac.com || Barcraft Switzerland! || Zerg best race. || Stats-poster extraordinaire.
Ragnarork
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
France9034 Posts
May 16 2013 14:35 GMT
#14
On May 16 2013 22:57 synd wrote:
The foreigner list looks extremely bullshit


Damn maths, making the foreigner list not looking what fans would like it to look like.
LiquipediaWanderer
StarVe
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany13591 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-16 14:45:49
May 16 2013 14:42 GMT
#15
The real foreigner list, by popular demand.

  1. de TLO
  2. se Naniwa
  3. ca Scarlett
  4. nl Grubby
  5. ca HuK
  6. ua White-Ra
  7. se ThorZaIN
  8. uk Demuslim
  9. us IdrA
  10. de TLO
  11. kr Dragon


Trust me, guys, it's totally based on some numbers.
Conti
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany2516 Posts
May 16 2013 14:46 GMT
#16
I fully approve of TLO being in the top 10 twice.
Rostam
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2552 Posts
May 16 2013 14:51 GMT
#17
Flash could surpass Lucifron soon. Someone should contact him and let him know about this accomplishment.

Thanks for all the work you guys put into this site, it's a really nice resource.
BW forever || Thall
Wakamex
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada47 Posts
May 16 2013 14:52 GMT
#18
Excellent writeup. I'd be curious about the accuracy and point transfer between KeSPA and ieSF pools!
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
May 16 2013 14:56 GMT
#19
On May 16 2013 23:42 StarVe wrote:
The real foreigner list, by popular demand.

  1. de TLO
  2. se Naniwa
  3. ca Scarlett
  4. nl Grubby
  5. ca HuK
  6. ua White-Ra
  7. se ThorZaIN
  8. uk Demuslim
  9. us IdrA
  10. de TLO
  11. kr Dragon


Trust me, guys, it's totally based on some numbers.

Sad to see Destiny out of the top 10.
Big-t
Profile Joined January 2011
Austria1350 Posts
May 16 2013 15:13 GMT
#20
Why is TLO not on the list and who is jim?
monchi | IdrA | Flash
1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
13:00
King of the Hill #222
Liquipedia
SC Evo League
12:00
S2 Championship: Ro28 Day 1
IndyStarCraft 155
BRAT_OK 65
IntoTheiNu 18
Liquipedia
Online Event
11:00
PSC2L August 2025
CranKy Ducklings223
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko376
IndyStarCraft 155
BRAT_OK 87
Rex 80
Codebar 35
MindelVK 29
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 40884
Sea 3105
Rain 1852
Barracks 688
EffOrt 377
ggaemo 294
Larva 278
Last 215
Hyun 117
Zeus 106
[ Show more ]
ToSsGirL 74
sSak 45
JulyZerg 39
[sc1f]eonzerg 38
Movie 30
sas.Sziky 27
yabsab 15
IntoTheRainbow 10
Shine 7
Hm[arnc] 6
Dota 2
Gorgc3040
Dendi1975
XcaliburYe526
Fuzer 204
febbydoto12
Counter-Strike
ScreaM3005
zeus713
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King51
Westballz34
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor171
Other Games
singsing2162
B2W.Neo1358
DeMusliM429
XaKoH 363
Happy307
Nina284
Hui .111
SortOf103
Trikslyr31
rGuardiaN29
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
CasterMuse 34
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 44
• 3DClanTV 44
• StrangeGG 32
• Kozan
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3850
League of Legends
• Nemesis2339
• Stunt478
Other Games
• WagamamaTV153
Upcoming Events
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1h 50m
CSO Contender
3h 50m
[BSL 2025] Weekly
4h 50m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
20h 50m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
21h 50m
SC Evo League
22h 50m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 1h
BSL Team Wars
1d 5h
Team Dewalt vs Team Bonyth
Afreeca Starleague
1d 20h
Sharp vs Ample
Larva vs Stork
Wardi Open
1d 21h
[ Show More ]
RotterdaM Event
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
JyJ vs TY
Bisu vs Speed
WardiTV Summer Champion…
2 days
PiGosaur Monday
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Mini vs TBD
Soma vs sSak
WardiTV Summer Champion…
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
LiuLi Cup
5 days
BSL Team Wars
6 days
Team Hawk vs Team Dewalt
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
SC Evo League
6 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-08-13
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
CSL Season 18: Qualifier 1
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLAN 3
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.