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Since the other thread with the HT vs HT discovery was no good option to post in it as it might require another thread.
The following statement in that thread made me do a row of tests:
On July 26 2012 07:48 GodZo wrote:
so bad, the first that make ghost or templar win the battle? Oo
I tested ghost's snipe versus HT's feedback.
- Snipe has 1 range more, but a cast time of 0.5 seconds (= duration before spell effect (damage) is executed).
-> So the mechanics behind the spells are different as snipe is no instant effect spell.
In HT vs HT battles the order of the units in which they are checked for possible ability executions defines the outcome which has been proven by the other thread's OP.
The OP's rule should/might be true for snipe vs snipe, but that remains untested for now.
In my tests I used triggers to create and order the units.
First test settings:
First I gave both players full map vision, then I created one unit, waited, created the second unit, waited, ordered both to use the spells on each other.
My results are that it depends on the unit's distance at the time when the units receive their orders.
At first the ghost might always lose to the HT, but after altering one factor, the outcome changed.
After moving the ghost's spawnpoint slightly more left or right, the ghost started to damage the HT. That means snipe was successfully casted before the feedback killed the ghost. Since that did not happen with every starting distance, the distance at the point of the order receiving is a factor in the result of the battle.
-> Altering the spawning order had no effect on the result.
-> Ghost snipe vs HT feedback is kind of random as it depends on the distance.
BUT the distances in which one spell is executed before the other one might not be equally distributed (-> not 50%).
So you might end up with a result of 70 to 30% for one unit to win the battle. But maybe it's 60 to 40, maybe it's 90 to 10...
-> FURTHER testing were required!
I tested this in 1.4.4 with "multi" dependency. So all balance changes should have been applied.
In a short test in 1.5 the ghost never dealt damage to the HT, but I didn't alter the spawnpoints. I noticed that the distance could be a factor as the ghost dealt damage in my 1.4.4 test attempt (which contains the balance changes).
TIME FOR A MASSIVE SCALE TEST with random distances:
In the new test I would create an area in which I would spawn the units on a random position within the area.
Then I would order both units to use their spell on each other. In the end I would try to run the test a lot of times on the map at once and test it over and over again using random points.
In the end we might have a good idea which unit has how big chances to win.
So I made a test map which had the following settings:
Settings:
- Every unit spawns in a random circular area.
- The area has a radius of 3.
- The distance between the center points of each area is 17.
- Ghost and Templar have each 50% chance to spawn first (random integer between 0 and 1).
- Fight is always approximated west vs east.
- West unit is always created first. (But west unit's type is random.)
- Both units receive their order at the same time.
Result:
![[image loading]](http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2880/screenshot2012072602335.jpg)
Templar has a win chance of approx 56% versus ghost snipe in 1.4.4 in these test settings. But they might be flawed as both units spawn in circular areas. So some distances will appear more often than other ones.
Test settings #2:
After setting the east unit's area to 0 (= always same spawnpoint), the templar's winrate was 53%.
Using a circular area might be a problem, too, as the distances aren't distributed evenly.
Now I'm using points for both units.
But the west unit has a random x-offset. It is now created with a random distance of 12.0 - 17.0.
-> The result is 53% as seen in the next screenshot.
![[image loading]](http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/3058/screenshot2012072602573.jpg)
=> Templar has a win chance of approx 53% versus ghost snipe in 1.4.4.
Further tests with the random distance:
- Changing the random distance to [12.0 ; 16.0] results in the same win chance for the HT.
- Changing the random distance to [12.0 ; 15.0] results in the same win chance for the HT.
This was only a test with west vs east. Maybe it's different in north vs south or in north-west vs south-east.
It's possible to get some stable results for the templar win percentage within a short duration with my test map as seen on the screenshots.
If you want me to alter the test or add some features for it or if you want me to publish it on battle.net (EU), just ask. 
edit:
I used High Templars that die to 1 snipe. If the HT survives it, your ghost is dead (or has no more energy) anyway. So this is a real dueling situation.
EMPing the HTs might be a better solution. The best attempt to snipe them would be to distract the enemy or trying to snipe them while they have units in the area in front of them towards the ghost (= using the fact that range 10 > range 9).
If the ghost receives his snipe command to late (like 1-2 game frames [I think it runs on 16 game frames per ingame second]) the HT should always win.
~ Ahli
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This is good information. I have always been frustrated trying to snipe HTs and getting feedbacked even though snipe has higher range, and this it's more common than not.
Another good experiment would be doing this test with 2 ghosts vs 1 templar, since it takes 2 snipes to kill an HT.
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Wait, so, are you saying that even with Sniper's +1 superior range, Feedback is always triggered first because of Snipe's 0.5 sec of casting animation, whereas feedback is instant?
So, in that case it is always better to EMP them even if there is only one HT? EMP on the other hand IS instant right?
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On July 26 2012 11:04 dynwar7 wrote:
Wait, so, are you saying that even with Sniper's +1 superior range, Feedback is always triggered first because of Snipe's 0.5 sec of casting animation, whereas feedback is instant?
So, in that case it is always better to EMP them even if there is only one HT? EMP on the other hand IS instant right?
Well, the cast is instant but there is a projectile. But you will have used some ghost energy, yes.
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On July 26 2012 11:04 dynwar7 wrote:
Wait, so, are you saying that even with Sniper's +1 superior range, Feedback is always triggered first because of Snipe's 0.5 sec of casting animation, whereas feedback is instant?
So, in that case it is always better to EMP them even if there is only one HT? EMP on the other hand IS instant right?
You have to realize though that Snipe Kills the HT and prevents it from becoming an Archon.
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But what I said above is correct right? That sniper has +1 range more but has 0.5 animation delay? Whereas feedback is instant?
If that is the case...what do you guys think is better between snipe vs emp?
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I suppose it's very situational.
It's not that hard to deny observers on your cloaked ghosts so when you're sure you can get away with it you should snipe.
The only exception is when they have detection or if he has a couple of templar stacked up and you cant snipe them all.
Just be aware that if you emp you must do so with the plan of attacking right after, otherwise it's not much use.
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On July 26 2012 11:26 dynwar7 wrote:
But what I said above is correct right? That sniper has +1 range more but has 0.5 animation delay? Whereas feedback is instant?
If that is the case...what do you guys think is better between snipe vs emp?
If it's just 1 HT, I feel that EMP is a waste of energy spent on it. Let's say you disable that HT, that's 1 EMP that you won't be using against the Toss deathball.
Not to mention another factor. HT has 200 energy, Feedback is 50. You'd need to EMP that HT twice before it's fully neutralized. And that's a lot of missing AOE shield damage potential gone from your own ball.
If I see a lone HT going out to feedback, I'll stick with Snipes or move Ghosts back and send a small bio-pack.
This is all theory-crafting on a 1v1 basis, which shouldn't really be happening at any time in the game. If you EMP that HT twice, well that Ghost just wasted most of it's energy, it can't EMP again. It's dead supply. And then you have to deal with the rest of the HT and Toss Deathball.
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On July 26 2012 11:36 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 11:26 dynwar7 wrote:
But what I said above is correct right? That sniper has +1 range more but has 0.5 animation delay? Whereas feedback is instant?
If that is the case...what do you guys think is better between snipe vs emp? If it's just 1 HT, I feel that EMP is a waste of energy spent on it. Let's say you disable that HT, that's 1 EMP that you won't be using against the Toss deathball. Not to mention another factor. HT has 200 energy, Feedback is 50. You'd need to EMP that HT twice before it's fully neutralized. And that's a lot of missing AOE shield damage potential gone from your own ball. If I see a lone HT going out to feedback, I'll stick with Snipes or move Ghosts back and send a small bio-pack. This is all theory-crafting on a 1v1 basis, which shouldn't really be happening at any time in the game. If you EMP that HT twice, well that Ghost just wasted most of it's energy, it can't EMP again. It's dead supply. And then you have to deal with the rest of the HT and Toss Deathball.
But this OP basically shows that's wrong and you should probably stim a marauder or two and kill it, since a good player will feedback you.
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very interesting. Thanks for doing all this.
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On July 26 2012 12:00 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 11:36 Eps wrote:On July 26 2012 11:26 dynwar7 wrote:
But what I said above is correct right? That sniper has +1 range more but has 0.5 animation delay? Whereas feedback is instant?
If that is the case...what do you guys think is better between snipe vs emp? If it's just 1 HT, I feel that EMP is a waste of energy spent on it. Let's say you disable that HT, that's 1 EMP that you won't be using against the Toss deathball. Not to mention another factor. HT has 200 energy, Feedback is 50. You'd need to EMP that HT twice before it's fully neutralized. And that's a lot of missing AOE shield damage potential gone from your own ball. If I see a lone HT going out to feedback, I'll stick with Snipes or move Ghosts back and send a small bio-pack. This is all theory-crafting on a 1v1 basis, which shouldn't really be happening at any time in the game. If you EMP that HT twice, well that Ghost just wasted most of it's energy, it can't EMP again. It's dead supply. And then you have to deal with the rest of the HT and Toss Deathball. But this OP basically shows that's wrong and you should probably stim a marauder or two and kill it, since a good player will feedback you.
Generally speaking when a HT moves forward, it does so to throw down a Storm, not play with Ghosts (which by rights should be cloaked).
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On July 26 2012 11:04 dynwar7 wrote:
Wait, so, are you saying that even with Sniper's +1 superior range, Feedback is always triggered first because of Snipe's 0.5 sec of casting animation, whereas feedback is instant?
So, in that case it is always better to EMP them even if there is only one HT? EMP on the other hand IS instant right?
Snipe has superior range, but requires 1 second cast time. So if the High templar hasn't a feedback command on that ghost, the snipe will be faster.
If both units have their command active and both units approach each other in open space (as the HT needs to move 1 distance unit further before it can cast feedback), the outcome is slightly favored for HT.
If the HT is blocked, it will die or receive the damage of the snipe because of the superior range of snipe.
If the HT is not blocked, it has a 53% chance to win.
If the Ghost screws up to cast the spell before entering its 10 range radius (like 1 or 2 game frames to late), the HT will win as the ghost dies while channeling.
The outcome is not defined in the moment of the cast. It is defined by the points from where the command is given. I assume that some internal rounding with the speed and positions creates the results I experience. So, in theory the outcome is predictable.
This distance isn't controllable for a human in the heat of the battle, so it's impossible to predict it (unless you write a program that calculates that).
Ghost's EMP is not an instant effect. It launches a missile that requires to travel to its destination point, but it is traveling at a high speed.
EMP has a range of 10 and EMP's effect area has a radius of 1.5. So it has a theoretical range of 11.5 versus a single unit, but effectively it's less. Else it will be easy to miss moving targets as the effect is not instant.
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So the ghost always get's off 1 snipe before the feedback hits but only lands the second snipe roughly half the time?
So the ghost needs to have more than 125 energy to die to the HT right? If you send a relatively new ghost it should always live i guess
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Can it occur that both die? As snipe has the cast time of 0.5 seconds. If in this time Feedback is casted, both should be dead, right?
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On July 26 2012 20:31 Markwerf wrote:
So the ghost always get's off 1 snipe before the feedback hits but only lands the second snipe roughly half the time?
So the ghost needs to have more than 125 energy to die to the HT right? If you send a relatively new ghost it should always live i guess
... No. He tested the templar with no health so it would die to the first snipe. In real game where templar has full shields and full health it always wins.
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I think it's fine, micro is impossible to perfect because it's reactive so 53% is better than I expected.
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On July 26 2012 20:47 Zaphid wrote:
I think it's fine, micro is impossible to perfect because it's reactive so 53% is better than I expected.
Indeed, but if you follow the usual theory crafting here everyone says snipe outranges feedback so you should never even be able to feedback. Anyone who actually plays the matchup knows that's not the case, but i guess nobody knew exactly how it worked. So i think it's a good test.
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This is very interesting, thanks for the thread.
But I wouldn't imagine that Fb has 53% chance to hit first, against the Snipe, wow
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So if calculating in that you need two snipes against each HT, and then put two ghosts into the test vs 1 HT, the HT will kill one of the ghosts in around 70-80% of the cases (thus at least paying for itself) ?
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On July 26 2012 21:43 Osteriet wrote:
So if calculating in that you need two snipes against each HT, and then put two ghosts into the test vs 1 HT, the HT will kill one of the ghosts in around 70-80% of the cases (thus at least paying for itself) ?
I'd say closer to 99%, because both ghosts would have to be at the exact same distance from the HT for that to apply. Of course HT has to feedback the closer ghost first.
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EPT
