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Article:How Diablo 3′s AH Makes It Feel Pointless

Forum Index > Diablo 3
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taldarimAltar
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
973 Posts
July 20 2012 10:28 GMT
#1
Got this from reddit. Basically this article hit's home with every sick feeling I get when I try to compare D2 with D3. I'm sure many of you feel that vague sense of emptiness and dissatisfaction by now. This article illustrates why.

Enjoying Diablo 3 too much to bother with the Auction House yet? Heard some of the stories about the things you can find on the Auction House? Wondering whether or not you should check it out?

DON’T DO IT.

Please. Stay away from it until you finish reading this. You can choose to use it, but you may well be better off without. It may not seem that way right now, but it’s true: the Auction House in Diablo 3 changes the game tremendously. In fact, it changes almost everything about how the entire incentive structure in the game works. It changes how you think about items, how you think about your character, and even how you think about the game itself.

More than that, it can make all those changes even if you never use it. All it takes is a glance, and your attitude towards the game will likely change forever. There’s no going back—and to explain why, I’m going to have to tell you a little bit about the economics of Diablo 3.

“Economics”? Yes. Economics. Diablo 3 has an economy. Most games do, when you come down to it. Economics, in many respects, is about the tradeoffs involved in managing scarce resources. Ask any Starcraft player: they’ll tell you that a big part of the game is paying attention to a variety of scarce resources: Time, minerals, gas, units, production facilities, unit resources, mining and gas patches, along with any number of other considerations. You’re constantly trading one resource for another: trading time for more minerals, trading attention for more gas, abandoning existing units for the opportunity to make new ones. It’s not as complex as a real-world economy, but there’s a reason Starcraft forums always talk about the importance of “managing your economy”. A successful Starcraft player is one that can quickly made these decisions.

But it isn’t just Starcraft. ALL games are about scarce resources. Ammo, lives, weaponry, time, experience: there’s always tradeoffs. Anything you can think of that isn’t plentiful is going to be affected by economic considerations. That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing going on–I’m the last person to engage in economic determinism–but it’s important enough to always keep in mind.


Sweet, sweet lucre.
Diablo 3, though, is a whole different story. It isn’t just an economy. No, it’s a CASH economy. In previous RPGs, you’d generally trade time and a little luck for your gear and capabilities. In a game like World of Warcraft, for example, there were stark limits on what you could buy; most high-level gear needed to be earned through gameplay. Not in Diablo 3. Everything can be legitimately bought and sold in Diablo 3, whether on the Auction House or just between players. Absolutely everything.

Gear? Just buy it with gold. Enhancements (gems, in this case?) Gold. Weapons? Gold. It doesn’t matter whether it’s early-game magic gear or end-game legendary weapons dripping with power, all of it can be yours if you have enough gold. And, sure, there’s also the real-money auction house, but that’s only one small part of it. Gold and real money are interconvertible currencies as well; gold in Diablo 3 is a currency as much as any other, albeit one that’s backed by a game-maker instead of a state.

That changes things a lot. It makes the game’s economics ultimately much like the real world’s economics, where the value of things are usually reducible to cash. Your time, your luck, your skill in acquiring gear—it really just determines your gold-earning power.

No, there’s only one stat in Diablo 3 that matters, and it’s not strength, or vitality, or any of the others. It’s “Gold Find”. All other stats are “Gold Find” wearing a variety of silly masks. They might be more effective. But they’re the same thing. It’s just gold.

Is the cash economy a problem, though? Yes, for two main reasons, stemming from two different economic traditions. From Marxian political economy, we’ve ended up in a situation where players are “alienated from their labour”. And from more mainstream neoclassical economics, we’ve got players learning that the value of their gear isn’t what they think it is; it’s what the market says it is. Those aren’t the same thing, and the realization is showing players how little their effort is really worth.

Look a little closer, and you’ll see why these things are contributing to the sense of ennui and dissatisfaction that is plaguing the game, and have been plaguing it since the game was launched. It’s why people are complaining that they just don’t find it “fun” like they did Diablo 2—and it might just be why the reviews seem not to capture these issues.

(The Real Money Auction House if anything just makes these issues worse, but I’m looking mostly at the gold one this time.)

Marx and the Alienated Labourer

"Workers of the world: stay a while, and listen."
Marx’s “Marxian” economics (or “political economy” depending on who you ask) is hellishly complex and difficult. It doesn’t really have that much to do with what we think of as “economics”, and doesn’t have much to do with what we think of when we think of “communists”, either. Most of what Marx wrote wasn’t really about communism or socialism or any of that, anyway. His game was about criticizing the problems that he saw in capitalism.

Some things were probably accurate, some likely weren’t, and a LOT of it is opaque. It’s still handy to know when you’re poking at some of the issues with a market, though–and Diablo 3 is as much a market as it is a game.

One of the handiest ideas in the Marxian tradition is about “alienation of labour”. What’s that? In short, it’s the idea that there’s no true connection between what you do and the product that comes out the other end. Marx (and others) saw what was going on with the factories of the industrial revolution and realized that people weren’t necessarily going to have the pride of creation that they used to, because they don’t really make things. They might contribute a nut here, or a bolt there, or maybe they sanded down some pointy bit, but they’ll never see the finished product, and they don’t necessarily feel like they made anything. It’s even worse with modern office-type jobs: even if you’re contributing something important, you aren’t doing the same thing as a skilled craftsman was doing back before the industrial revolution.

Sure, you get paid for your time. Sure, you can use that money to buy other things. But it all boils down to cash; there’s no direct connection between the things that you did and the things that you get. It’s indirect and, in many minds, unsatisfactory. That’s why you get so many middle-aged men puttering around in a shop in their garage, and why knitting has become this massive, ubiquitous international subculture. They want that direct connection between labour and product.

(Seriously. Never, ever mess with knitters. They are legion and they are ARMED.)

You can still get that feeling in video games, though. RPGs, especially, give you the sense that you’ve earned something, that you’ve made something. Sure, the labor and work involved is a bit obtuse and arcane, with you clubbing some poor orc to death a bunch of times in order to get a neat sword—but there’s still that connection there between the thing that you did and the thing that you get. When you’ve got some guy strutting around Orgrimmar with his new dragon mount and glowy sword, you know he’s saying “look at what I did! Look at what I earned!” That direct connection’s the key.


"Sweet gear. How much did it cost you?"
Diablo 3 severs that connection. Since everything boils down to gold, you quickly become aware that the direct connection is only an illusion. Sure, you could just use the stuff that you’ve found, and people do. But you’re going to know that the stuff you’re using is substandard; and, eventually, you’re going to be forced to hit the Auction House or the forums just to be able to keep up with the punishing difficulty of high-level play.

The gold is ALWAYS there, hidden under the surface. That knowledge is ALWAYS going to be standing between you and that sense of accomplishment. Seeing someone else in awesome gear is ALWAYS going to be devalued in your eyes, because you know that they could have just bought it. Even looking at the auction house is ALWAYS going to make it absolutely impossible to ignore the big golden elephant in the room. You’ll never forget what your gear really is, or what it’s really worth.

If you don’t buy the gear, you’ll feel like a sucker. If you do buy the gear (and sell the stuff you get), you’ll be alienated from what you made, just as Marx said. It’s all indirect. It’s all just cash. It’s all unsatisfying.

Everything Has Its Price
It gets worse. The Marxians may have come up with alienation, but regular “neoclassical” econ has something to say too. Neoclassical econ is partially about sorting out the pricing of stuff; whereas the Marxians drew a distinction between something’s “use value” and “exchange value”, more mainstream econ says that it’s quite a bit simpler: things cost whatever people are willing to pay for them. A lot of microeconomics focuses on what conditions are necessary for a market to “clear”: that is, when sellers manage to find buyers for all their goods.


Demand curves shifting up: NOT what's happening in Diablo.
There’s a lot to it. The math can be nightmarish. But here’s a microeconomic lesson that people are learning on the Auction House right now: their stuff really is worth what people pay for it. Full stop. No more. No less. If you can find someone who’s willing to buy a bushel of corn for five bucks, then guess what? It’s worth five bucks. If you can’t? Then it wasn’t worth five bucks. It was worth less than that. Maybe it was worth three bucks. Maybe two. But, ultimately, the seller doesn’t decide what it’s worth. The buyer and sellers do it together.

Of course, sellers and buyers have to get together first. Buyers have to see all their different options in order to make a maximally informed decision. And if you’re bartering, then it can be really difficult for buyers to sort out what something’s really worth. Is a bushel of wheat worth two piglets? Is it worth [x] dozens of eggs? Hard to say. Add a currency that’s convertible into everything though, and it ends up mostly working out. A bushel of wheat costs a certain amount of cash, and a piglet costs a certain amount of cash, and you can compare the value just by comparing the cost. Marxian alienation or no, it does make things simpler.

Let’s bring this back to gaming. In previous small-scale RPGs, you were mostly bartering, and you didn’t know what all the options were or what people were REALLY willing to trade for the items. Sure, you could usually sell your gear to some NPC vendor, but so what? The gold could only buy a certain subset of items. The REAL stuff, the stuff you actually wanted, was bartered: you bartered your time spent monster-bashing for the gear that came with it, or you bartered gear with your friends and guildmates. And those values were mostly whatever you wanted them to be.

Even MMOs work that way: the stuff you really want can’t be bought with anything but time and effort. Free-to-play games change that up a bit with their cash shop, and there’s usually some kind of black market, but the trend remains. You traded your effort for rewards, and both were worth what you THOUGHT they was worth.

Diablo 3′s auction house changes everything. It provides a near-infinite amount of sellers and a near-infinite amount of buyers. Searching for the best deal is (relatively) easy for buyers, and you have no reason NOT to take the best deal, since all the sellers are completely faceless and anonymous. EVERYTHING is priced in a discrete currency, so you can precisely and quickly gauge the value of goods. And with the way that Diablo 3′s items prioritize a clear, easily understood set of stats, it’s easy to weigh which gear is more usable, too. Driving a hard bargain couldn’t be easier for buyers.


Amazing design. Shame there's no point in getting his stuff.
“Bargain” is the word: everything’s cheap. It’s so very cheap. Thanks to all those sellers driving down prices, you can get amazing, top-notch gear on the auction house for a pittance. Early “Rare” gear, which only occasionally drops in Normal mode, can cost a few thousand gold, which players can farm up in a pretty short time. Gear that outclasses anything you find, anything you find, is so incredibly cheap that it takes your breath away. The market’s set the prices, and those prices are damned low.

Seems great, at first—until you find out that the stuff that YOU get isn’t worth anything at all. Since the gear outclasses anything you find, you don’t really have any need to use the stuff you get. You can’t sell it, either: most of it is low-level “magic” gear that is so incredibly outclassed by the things other people are selling, it won’t sell on the auction house at any price.

You could turn it into crafting commodities, but those are just as cheap as the gear, if not cheaper. And why would you bother crafting in the first place? Crafting in Diablo 3 is a expensive, randomness-plagued experience. The stuff you make likely isn’t worth much, and even if it’s perfect, it’s still not going to be worth any more than the cheap stuff you’re finding on the auction house.

Inevitably, auction-savvy players realize that they only thing they can do with the vast, vast majority of the stuff they find is to sell it to the vendors for almost nothing. The stuff that they find is worthless. It’s worthless to others, and since they’re buyers just like everybody else, it’s worthless to them, too.

That’s what that big, convenient Auction House economy ends up telling these already-alienated players: nearly everything they find and make is worthless. Crafting’s worthless, drops are worthless, gems are worthless, all of it. Sure, that might change as they level up to 60 and get into Inferno mode: but that’s hours and hours and hours of gameplay where you’re just trashing everything you find. Players have already complained that gear in Diablo 3 isn’t really that interesting. How much worse it when it’s literally garbage?

Blessed Ignorance

Not pictured: The player's gnawing ennui.
These two issues add up to real dissatisfaction. You aren’t really connected to what you make anymore: you never use it, and don’t trade it to friends, but just sell it on a big faceless auction house. That might be okay if you were making good money out of the deal, but the vast majority of players don’t see a dime out of anything but the most valuable gear. There’s no point to either crafting or looting. It’ll all just get trashed anyway. If it weren’t for the pittance you get from vendors, you might as well just leave everything to rot.

I think that’s one of the main reasons why people have been so vocally dissatisfied with the game. Even if they don’t realize that it’s the combination of the gold economy and the deflated value of what they find and make, it’s always there, right under the surface. It robs people of a lot of the satisfaction that they could get out of game like Diablo 3. Diablo 3′s game mechanics are so good, too, that it’s almost tragic that this is taking place.

Worst of all, there’s no going back. These issues are all about knowledge. If you know that all the awesome stuff that you find is ultimately only valued in gold, and if you know that it’s not even worth that much gold, you’ll never forget it. Even if you never actually use the Auction House, you’re going to be aware of what the options are. Some may argue that they can just turn their back on it and ignore it. They might even succeed. But you don’t know if you’re one of those people. For many others, it’s always going to hang like a shadow over the whole experience.

There’s a way out, though. NEVER VISIT THE AUCTION HOUSE. EVER.


Don't seek it out. It's not worth it.
I know it sounds drastic, even ridiculous, but it may be the best choice. You will never have to deal with any of these issues; not the gold economy, not the low prices, none of it. You won’t even know.

There’s precedent, too. Look at all the positive Diablo 3 reviews that are out there. Notice something missing? Like, say, everything I just mentioned? I don’t think that’s because they’re being fawning or fanboys or anything like that. I think the answers simpler: they gave the game those high scores and the laudatory reviews because they played the best version of the game: the one where you never even see the Auction House.

High-profile reviews at places like IGN or Gamespot rave about “finding new loot” and “trading with your friends”, and a few mention the prospect of selling things on the auction house. Look at Arthur Gies’s incredibly positive review on The Verge: he never really talked about the experience of going to the Auction House and replacing everything every few levels, or the realization that crafting wasn’t worth it. He didn’t really talk about the Auction House at all. Many happy reviewers like Gies didn’t, because that isn’t the experience that they had. They looted and traded and crafted and had a grand old time, precisely because the gold economy and the Auction House weren’t looming over their whole experience.


He's enjoying himself. You should too.
So, now, you have a choice to make, at least if you’re lucky enough to be one of those people who hasn’t used the Auction House yet.

Do you want to play the version of Diablo 3 that got the game all those amazingly high scores and had Arthur Gies saying that Diablo 2 was “obsolete”? Or do you want to play the version where so many people are vaguely dissatisfied and not sure why? Do you want the economy that’s fun and rewarding and exciting? Or do you want the one that makes you feel like you aren’t playing the game properly unless you trash almost everything you make and find?

Me, I think the choice is clear. Stay the HELL away from Diablo 3′s Auction House. Never click on it. Never even think about it. Pretend it doesn’t exist. Do your best to BELIEVE it doesn’t exist.

For Heaven’s sake: play the better game.


TL DR; The auction house makes upgrades so convenient, cheap and accessible that the satisfaction from earning your own gear is almost gone. It in effect cheapens the time you spend and the items you get. Every single stat is essential "gold find" repackaged, because that's all that ever matter now.

Blizzard said that you could do the game without the auction house, but who likes getting left behind?

I know it's wistful thinking but I really just want them to scrap the AH and create a trade bazaar world with 20-30ish player limit so I can just barter trade to my hearts content.

Or just revert to D2 style of game lobbies where I can join my "Trading Post"s and my "GFG GEAR FT" games
Silidons
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2813 Posts
July 20 2012 10:31 GMT
#2
IMO AH is fine. It's the lack of a server list that makes you feel alone.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte
zomgE
Profile Joined January 2012
498 Posts
July 20 2012 11:14 GMT
#3
i don't see how anyone would think the trading games, chat channels etc were better than AH besides nostalgia.
or wait, did some people use the auction house the first time they were playing? lol, cos that's the only time i felt i didn't want to use it and only used what i found. after reaching inferno however i found the ah useful and a quick way to trade.
dibban
Profile Joined July 2008
Sweden1279 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 11:28:29
July 20 2012 11:28 GMT
#4
Diablo 3 has, sadly, become a game for the mindless zombies. No hope left for it.
이제동 - 이영호 since '07.
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
July 20 2012 12:02 GMT
#5
On July 20 2012 19:31 Silidons wrote:
IMO AH is fine. It's the lack of a server list that makes you feel alone.


Why post without reading OP? It has nothing to do with feeling alone in the game. Maybe trough a hell of a paraphrasing but not really.

OT: I didnt like the article. I tought it was really pretentious with all the "Marxonian economics" stuff and while pretending to have substance, it actually didnt. Just a simple tought dragged out over a wall of text hoping that way it would sound more convincing and a made up punchline that i felt the autor really just tagged at the end for the sake of giving the article some artificial meaning in fear it would end up being just a well tought out whine post. The punchline is " dont use the AH if you want to enjoy the game". Its weak and far too stretched.

I do however believe there is some, if not all, truth in there. However I wouldnt overanalyze anything about this game as I dont see the point. No need to break our heads with this one; its a bad game, as simple as that.
sorry for dem one liners
Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany2959 Posts
July 20 2012 12:09 GMT
#6
On July 20 2012 20:14 zomgE wrote:
i don't see how anyone would think the trading games, chat channels etc were better than AH besides nostalgia.
or wait, did some people use the auction house the first time they were playing? lol, cos that's the only time i felt i didn't want to use it and only used what i found. after reaching inferno however i found the ah useful and a quick way to trade.


Yep basically this.

And these days, much more so than by the time Diablo 2 was at it's peak, trading in auction houses would've been very apparent even if Blizzard had no ingame AH.
I mean nowadays trading on eBay or sites specifically for game trading is very well known.

If you feel compelled to use the auction house because a friend you play with does so, well what if that friend used some outside auction house? You'd be in the same position, apart from not knowing if its safe.
WrathBringerReturns said: No no no. Sarcasm is detected in the voice. When this forum is riddled with stupidity, you think I can tell every post apart? Fair enough it was intended sarcastically, was it obvious? Of course not.
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 12:15:00
July 20 2012 12:13 GMT
#7
The article is basically AH before inferno, as the result while somewhat interesting and raise alot of points, alot of assumption it based on are not correct. Basically it's a rage post of someone who spent 5 hour on the game.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
Kreb
Profile Joined September 2010
4834 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 12:25:52
July 20 2012 12:14 GMT
#8
Some pretty good points. Kinda overexplained or overanalyzed, your TLDR explains the core issue without a lot of the ramblings in the post. His sections about economics and all that wasnt needed to explain his point.

I dont think not using the AH is really gonna be a good option either though, which really is the point hes trying to get across. The game is made with the AH in mind, which means people are supposed to use it, which in turn means people are supposed to have a lot better gear than what they could ever dream of farming for themselves. Thus, if you decide to farm yourself and not use the AH, you're likely gonna have an extremely hard time beating the game and its gonna end up in a lot of frustration about how impossible the game is. And rightly so, the game is almost impossible without AH.

You could argue the game would have been better if the AH was never placed there to begin with and everything was massively nerfed, balanced around gear levels you reach by only farming yourself. Maybe it would have. But then you'd probably have to completely disable all kinds of trading (making all loot soulbound WoW-style, for example), or 3rd party markets would just pop up and create own markets, taking the role that the AH is currently filling.

Another point he didnt touch was how the AH doesnt really just remove the gratification of finding loot (I totally agree on that point), but it does actually add other types of gratification. There is a certain amount of gratification in selling a good item you found, finding an underpriced piece of equipment and sniping it fast, or just simply saving up X amount of gold and then burning it all on that one piece of equipment (weapon usually) that you really wanted. Its a different kind of gratification. Possibly inferior, possibly not something games should be based on, but its still there. So arguing that the AH only removes fun isnt true, it just removes a certain kind of fun, while adding other kinds.

Also, AH makes a broader amount of items fun. Imagine an AH-less world and you find a 1600dps 2hand sword...... playing as a demon hunter. With the AH, thats a fun drop. Without the AH....yea...
Denzil
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom4193 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 12:22:47
July 20 2012 12:21 GMT
#9
I feel the problem lies in the fact that there is no way to take items out of the economy. When you find an item it isn't "Oh wow I wonder how much I can sell it for!" It's more so me dreading how many there are already on the auction house. This isn't a problem that's going to fix itself, it's going to get worse over time as there still remains no way to remove items from the economy.
Diablo 2 managed it with ladder resets, I don't think Blizzard will end up doing that and as a result this will just end up getting worse and worse and removing the pleasure in finding "new" items and trying to sell them

I'm currently trying out hardcore and seeing if I get a better experience of the game, one where items actually matter and when you die you lose your shit and it gets removed from the economy
Anna: So Sen how will you prepare for your revenge v MC? Sen: With a smile.
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 12:22:44
July 20 2012 12:22 GMT
#10
BTW, if OP ever played FF14, they tried to do away with the Auction house, and use a bazaar / trade system. OMFG what a clusterfk it was. After limitless nerd rage they had to add AH back in, except since it was added on the spot, it was REALLY sub-par design and they ended up pissing off everyone... again.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
Breavman
Profile Joined September 2004
Sweden598 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 12:28:47
July 20 2012 12:26 GMT
#11
The basic argument is spot on, this is my main problem with the game. Diablo is and was always about loot. But with the current way the AH is set up, there is so little reward. Identifying a rare isn't even exiting. You measure an item not for what it brings but for how far off it is from the perfect item. Creating better items and better drops would do nothing at all, except creating inflation. The AH is a horrible idea.
Denzil
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom4193 Posts
July 20 2012 12:32 GMT
#12
On July 20 2012 21:26 Breavman wrote:
The basic argument is spot on, this is my main problem with the game. Diablo is and was always about loot. But with the current way the AH is set up, there is so little reward. Identifying a rare isn't even exiting. You measure an item not for what it brings but for how far off it is from the perfect item. Creating better items and better drops would do nothing at all, except creating inflation. The AH is a horrible idea.


Isn't that what you did in D2? I can't tell if your point of how far off it is from the perfect item is negative or positive but in D2 whenever I made a HOTO, CTA or found a HoZ I was always measuring it's worth based on if it was close to 40 res, 6/6/4 or 200% ED
Anna: So Sen how will you prepare for your revenge v MC? Sen: With a smile.
taldarimAltar
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
973 Posts
July 20 2012 12:32 GMT
#13
Ok I guess I'm unique in my way that I hate the shopping market convenience and prefer to trade. I played D2 a shit load for several years, trading was so fun. I found haggling and getting deals thrilling, not so much now trawling the AH flipping 1d11h auctions. Chat channels and trading are not purely nostalgia, that's pure bullshit. Bnet 2.0 is so anti-social. Trading is fun because of imperfect information and difference in demand for different items by different people. The AH is so cold and faceless.

On black markets popping up as a result of not having an AH, this does not mean that trading is eliminated. A black market operate with real money and cannot fully replace the AH. The bone of contention is the gold auction house.
taldarimAltar
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
973 Posts
July 20 2012 12:38 GMT
#14
On July 20 2012 21:32 Denzil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 21:26 Breavman wrote:
The basic argument is spot on, this is my main problem with the game. Diablo is and was always about loot. But with the current way the AH is set up, there is so little reward. Identifying a rare isn't even exiting. You measure an item not for what it brings but for how far off it is from the perfect item. Creating better items and better drops would do nothing at all, except creating inflation. The AH is a horrible idea.


Isn't that what you did in D2? I can't tell if your point of how far off it is from the perfect item is negative or positive but in D2 whenever I made a HOTO, CTA or found a HoZ I was always measuring it's worth based on if it was close to 40 res, 6/6/4 or 200% ED


Yes the gambling lottery mechanic is still there but weakened by the ease of which a comparable item can be got on the AH, the price in the AH are set almost purely by supply and demand, this makes items only worth what others are willing to pay and the cheapest they can be. When we get decent items we feel bad because they sell for so cheap on the AH, that's why there's probably so much ill sentiment towards mediocre drops. Item inflation makes them feel mediocre.
zomgE
Profile Joined January 2012
498 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 12:39:32
July 20 2012 12:38 GMT
#15
On July 20 2012 21:32 Denzil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 21:26 Breavman wrote:
The basic argument is spot on, this is my main problem with the game. Diablo is and was always about loot. But with the current way the AH is set up, there is so little reward. Identifying a rare isn't even exiting. You measure an item not for what it brings but for how far off it is from the perfect item. Creating better items and better drops would do nothing at all, except creating inflation. The AH is a horrible idea.


Isn't that what you did in D2? I can't tell if your point of how far off it is from the perfect item is negative or positive but in D2 whenever I made a HOTO, CTA or found a HoZ I was always measuring it's worth based on if it was close to 40 res, 6/6/4 or 200% ED

nah, in D2 everyone found their own items and combined their own enigmas and hotos with selffound runes. oh wait.
Breavman
Profile Joined September 2004
Sweden598 Posts
July 20 2012 12:41 GMT
#16
On July 20 2012 21:32 Denzil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 21:26 Breavman wrote:
The basic argument is spot on, this is my main problem with the game. Diablo is and was always about loot. But with the current way the AH is set up, there is so little reward. Identifying a rare isn't even exiting. You measure an item not for what it brings but for how far off it is from the perfect item. Creating better items and better drops would do nothing at all, except creating inflation. The AH is a horrible idea.


Isn't that what you did in D2? I can't tell if your point of how far off it is from the perfect item is negative or positive but in D2 whenever I made a HOTO, CTA or found a HoZ I was always measuring it's worth based on if it was close to 40 res, 6/6/4 or 200% ED


I guess my point of view is more the casual player's. I didn't even know what a perfect item would look like i D2. A good useable item could come in different shapes with different kind of stats. There was an element of surprise. I'm quite the noob in D3 as well, but I already know exactly what stats I look for on my gear and everything which doesn't fit the template is worthless. It's just a grind increasing a few points here and there when I can afford, and it's boring.
finkelboy
Profile Joined December 2008
Italy372 Posts
July 20 2012 12:55 GMT
#17
On July 20 2012 21:13 ragz_gt wrote:
The article is basically AH before inferno, as the result while somewhat interesting and raise alot of points, alot of assumption it based on are not correct. Basically it's a rage post of someone who spent 5 hour on the game.

Agree, the article starts the right way, but becomes ridiculous than.
You know YOU CAN'T FUCKIN PASS act 1 without AH. And i'm even not so sure about Hell.
Ma jae yoon, what else? By.hero next bonjwa
Denzil
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom4193 Posts
July 20 2012 12:58 GMT
#18
On July 20 2012 21:38 zomgE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 21:32 Denzil wrote:
On July 20 2012 21:26 Breavman wrote:
The basic argument is spot on, this is my main problem with the game. Diablo is and was always about loot. But with the current way the AH is set up, there is so little reward. Identifying a rare isn't even exiting. You measure an item not for what it brings but for how far off it is from the perfect item. Creating better items and better drops would do nothing at all, except creating inflation. The AH is a horrible idea.


Isn't that what you did in D2? I can't tell if your point of how far off it is from the perfect item is negative or positive but in D2 whenever I made a HOTO, CTA or found a HoZ I was always measuring it's worth based on if it was close to 40 res, 6/6/4 or 200% ED

nah, in D2 everyone found their own items and combined their own enigmas and hotos with selffound runes. oh wait.


worked my balls off to make an enigma

then discovered D2jsp oh my god did life get easy then
Anna: So Sen how will you prepare for your revenge v MC? Sen: With a smile.
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
July 20 2012 13:04 GMT
#19
if you are going to call every stat gold find because it just allows you to farm more stuff to sell, then the same could be said in diablo 2. beating the game wasnt difficult, you just had to get to a certain gear point, after that everything was about making things faster to farm.

and if you think finding upgrades on the auction house is easy, then to be blunt your gear is shit. when you require all 6 affixs to be certain stats or the item is useless come ask again about how easy the AH is ;D
TheFear
Profile Joined July 2010
United States55 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 13:11:50
July 20 2012 13:07 GMT
#20
On July 20 2012 21:21 Denzil wrote:
I feel the problem lies in the fact that there is no way to take items out of the economy. When you find an item it isn't "Oh wow I wonder how much I can sell it for!" It's more so me dreading how many there are already on the auction house. This isn't a problem that's going to fix itself, it's going to get worse over time as there still remains no way to remove items from the economy.
Diablo 2 managed it with ladder resets, I don't think Blizzard will end up doing that and as a result this will just end up getting worse and worse and removing the pleasure in finding "new" items and trying to sell them

I'm currently trying out hardcore and seeing if I get a better experience of the game, one where items actually matter and when you die you lose your shit and it gets removed from the economy


^- Ding we have a winner, but seriously I agree.

Some points in OP undoubtedly valid and a good argument for playing HC mode. Although I definitely realize that not everyone can embrace so much lost time/gold/items from things like a disconnect or server side lag (although more seldom now in my experience). The thing that makes it viable to me is that I do not lose my stash, gold, and artisans - so even though my character may be lost at some point - there is a very nice window of time where he'd make me more gold in his farming than he has of stuff on him. At first I really thought I wanted to see an RMAH for HC, and now I am not so sure it is a good idea to tarnish that side of the community in that sense as well. Granted gold can still be bought and sold in the grey markets in order to facilitate real money trading as well or in private sales between two people that know one another, but a good portion of people appreciate that HC-mode has no in game money elements.

Since I play the game for longer hours than most, a vast majority of time is spent on inferno in HC. This may bias my view on the effective value of my finds on the auction house. Compared to a casual player who plays maybe 1-2 hours a day tops, clearly they won't be able to see the best end game stuff unless they pay for it or get extraordinarily lucky on a few of their own finds upon arriving close to the end game. If I did not have access to at least the gold AH though in terms of HC, it would definitely take a crazy amount of time to be able to reasonably handle anything from A1 inferno and onward out on one's own. In actuality, even if you sought out trades in forums and/or trade channels you would still be up against it in this kind of scenario. It's a pretty steep difficulty curve as no doubt many of you have experienced on both modes.

As far as the RMAH, I did use it mainly to sell but also to buy what I perceived to be undervalued items. This was my short-term goal from the release of the game into the first few weeks and I think at a certain point I decided to cash out when I thought all my wizard's gear would get a healthy premium price. If I had waited just 1-2 more weeks, I know much of my gear would have been worth a good chunk less than what I was already used to seeing. I know much of it was top notch at the time, but it wasn't "end game" material. This made my decision easy, as I knew eventually my intended goal was to play HC - since that is what I have enjoyed most since the D2 era as well. During that time things were given respectable values, and it did seem like a good opportunity for anyone farming inferno content to make some bucks on the side if they wanted to. I can understand that over time with limited gold sinks inflation has inevitably occurred to a large degree, and although the core game has a lot of potential it does seem like the RMAH and even GAH while convenient are both double-edged swords. In considering this article's POV you can see that while using them gives you a substantial advantage compared to farming all your own gear, the realization that the investment of your in-game time is rewarded in a relatively trivial matter on the road to inferno is something I can understand. One thought that comes to my mind, that may not really solve the core issues but at least gives people a good incentive for leveling alts, would be to implement lower level nephalem valor stacking tiers. So for example, chars in normal mode would not receive the benefit but in nightmare they'd get 5% mf bonus per stack and in hell mode they would get 10% mf bonus per stack. I think normal is fun because at least the bosses drop at least one rare, so you've got that to look forward to, and from there on out you've got a huge gap between early NM and late hell mode where people literally spend hours without finding 1 rare, let alone any legendary, to identify. Granted even if this was done those items would be relatively easy to find for a small sum of gold, but at the very least you'd get a somewhat softened up but still considerable bonus for stacking nephalems from as soon as you begin nightmare. You could also do it in terms of leveling, so for instance 30-40 you'd get 5%, 40-59 you'd get 10%, and then at 60 you receive the current one at 15% per stack.

At the risk of sounding like I am trying to migrate all of you to try HC , I do want to talk about another contrast among the two. All in all I don't see a firm solution to solving the RMAH/GAH problems on the softcore mode side, but if any of you wanted to try a fresh experience on HC you'd see that the economies are vastly different. With gear being constantly removed from the economy in the form of people dying, and gold being spent for all the things you would in softcore (including low to mid level gear in order to re-gear alternates) you can see that although some things may fluctuate in value gold maintains a relatively steadier valuation over a longer period of time. So the people just starting out with lower level items to sell, if they are good in-level items, they could realistically start making gold at a fair rate right from the beginning by selling that gear off. A lot of players who are making alternate characters are more than happy to pay for certain items in order to make their leveling experience a bit faster, since they value their time spent farming inferno. Another interesting thing about it would be the gems, in softcore I am unsure what the most valuable gems would be at this point (when I quit I believe it was the emerald), but on HC you can pretty much bet that Amethysts and even Rubies are fairly certain to maintain a consistently high value compared to Topazes and even Emeralds. Since amethysts are vitality in socketables, as well as % life in helm and LOH on higher tier weapons you can clearly see the value there. Rubies with their % exp bonus in lower leveling on helms, as well as the socketing of a weapon for extra damage until LOH is actually necessary, have a clear amount of utility as well. So for instance when you hit early hell mode you can find a Tome of Jewelcrafting, and each one of those can sell for something ballpark 2.5k gold (last I checked). So already you're talking about finding significant values in commodities and allow you to build up your "gold bankroll" to gear up characters on the road to 60 and still (hopefully) a decent amount left over once you get there to keep progressing.

Lastly, if you do consider trying an alt or two on HC, keep in mind not to put all your eggs in one basket unless you can handle that style of play. Yesterday I literally lost a 100+ hour 20+ million gold lvl 60 A1 Inferno Barb to a brief stutter in my otherwise fairly consistent connection. Normally I would have been out of commission from farming A1 for at least a few days, if not more. Luckily for me I at least have a lvl 60 monk that I built nearly as fast as getting 60 on my barb. Although having all your resources channeled into one character and avoiding death for the long-term would be the optimal way to increase game wealth - it is a pretty heavy risk and high reward path. Where-as getting at least two characters to 60 would take more time grinding the levels, but is sure to pay dividends if one of them suffers an untimely death. In any case it's just some food for thought, I honestly thought I would be more devastated by his death than I was, but I just accepted the fact that at least I didn't make any mistake of my own to lose that character, and even though he was clearly worth a lot of gold (let alone time invested) I think I handled it very well. There are plenty of guides out there that would walk you through some pivotal advice when considering trying hardcore mode, but I think that if the kind of issues addressed in this OP are part of what are killing your D3 gaming experience - it couldn't hurt to give it another run on HC-mode in order to see if this side of the game fits you better. The worst that can happen is that you have some fun and lose a character down the road, at which point you can decide if you are fit for HC and want to rebuild or you can let the game go until at least some other end game options like PvP come on board - knowing that you got a lot of entertainment value and exhausted all the in-game options.

I really think that Blizzard has a hidden gem on their hands here with D3, granted many people are discontent for a variety of reasons and others of us have truly enjoyed hundreds of hours of play despite some clearly significant flaws with the game. I am hopeful that they'll address a lot of these issues before, but the RMAH/GAH markets on the softcore side are definitely something I cannot imagine being completely solved. Too much of it has already been done, and even if it was started from scratch (yea I know it's not going to happen) - I don't really know what they'd do to make for more gold sinks or improve the in-game economy. Perhaps the only option would be to start ladder seasons over again or something along those lines, but given the RMAH I think the ship has essentially set sail on that option. Hardcore, in my humble opinion, has an economy that's built to last for many of the reasons mentioned above along with of course all the standard built in gold sinks across the board (cost of potions, repairs, 15% gold fee on AH sales, etc...)

Phew, that was a pretty wordy post. Sorry if I side tracked a little bit from the initial discussion, but I think it all relatively interconnected.

TLDR; softcore has issues, I think HC has some issues also but the market is sound. Check it out if you don't mind losing characters, you might enjoy the experience. It's a lot of fun in my book.


"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell
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