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Article:How Diablo 3′s AH Makes It Feel Pointless

Forum Index > Diablo 3
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taldarimAltar
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
973 Posts
July 20 2012 10:28 GMT
#1
Got this from reddit. Basically this article hit's home with every sick feeling I get when I try to compare D2 with D3. I'm sure many of you feel that vague sense of emptiness and dissatisfaction by now. This article illustrates why.

Enjoying Diablo 3 too much to bother with the Auction House yet? Heard some of the stories about the things you can find on the Auction House? Wondering whether or not you should check it out?

DON’T DO IT.

Please. Stay away from it until you finish reading this. You can choose to use it, but you may well be better off without. It may not seem that way right now, but it’s true: the Auction House in Diablo 3 changes the game tremendously. In fact, it changes almost everything about how the entire incentive structure in the game works. It changes how you think about items, how you think about your character, and even how you think about the game itself.

More than that, it can make all those changes even if you never use it. All it takes is a glance, and your attitude towards the game will likely change forever. There’s no going back—and to explain why, I’m going to have to tell you a little bit about the economics of Diablo 3.

“Economics”? Yes. Economics. Diablo 3 has an economy. Most games do, when you come down to it. Economics, in many respects, is about the tradeoffs involved in managing scarce resources. Ask any Starcraft player: they’ll tell you that a big part of the game is paying attention to a variety of scarce resources: Time, minerals, gas, units, production facilities, unit resources, mining and gas patches, along with any number of other considerations. You’re constantly trading one resource for another: trading time for more minerals, trading attention for more gas, abandoning existing units for the opportunity to make new ones. It’s not as complex as a real-world economy, but there’s a reason Starcraft forums always talk about the importance of “managing your economy”. A successful Starcraft player is one that can quickly made these decisions.

But it isn’t just Starcraft. ALL games are about scarce resources. Ammo, lives, weaponry, time, experience: there’s always tradeoffs. Anything you can think of that isn’t plentiful is going to be affected by economic considerations. That doesn’t mean it’s the only thing going on–I’m the last person to engage in economic determinism–but it’s important enough to always keep in mind.


Sweet, sweet lucre.
Diablo 3, though, is a whole different story. It isn’t just an economy. No, it’s a CASH economy. In previous RPGs, you’d generally trade time and a little luck for your gear and capabilities. In a game like World of Warcraft, for example, there were stark limits on what you could buy; most high-level gear needed to be earned through gameplay. Not in Diablo 3. Everything can be legitimately bought and sold in Diablo 3, whether on the Auction House or just between players. Absolutely everything.

Gear? Just buy it with gold. Enhancements (gems, in this case?) Gold. Weapons? Gold. It doesn’t matter whether it’s early-game magic gear or end-game legendary weapons dripping with power, all of it can be yours if you have enough gold. And, sure, there’s also the real-money auction house, but that’s only one small part of it. Gold and real money are interconvertible currencies as well; gold in Diablo 3 is a currency as much as any other, albeit one that’s backed by a game-maker instead of a state.

That changes things a lot. It makes the game’s economics ultimately much like the real world’s economics, where the value of things are usually reducible to cash. Your time, your luck, your skill in acquiring gear—it really just determines your gold-earning power.

No, there’s only one stat in Diablo 3 that matters, and it’s not strength, or vitality, or any of the others. It’s “Gold Find”. All other stats are “Gold Find” wearing a variety of silly masks. They might be more effective. But they’re the same thing. It’s just gold.

Is the cash economy a problem, though? Yes, for two main reasons, stemming from two different economic traditions. From Marxian political economy, we’ve ended up in a situation where players are “alienated from their labour”. And from more mainstream neoclassical economics, we’ve got players learning that the value of their gear isn’t what they think it is; it’s what the market says it is. Those aren’t the same thing, and the realization is showing players how little their effort is really worth.

Look a little closer, and you’ll see why these things are contributing to the sense of ennui and dissatisfaction that is plaguing the game, and have been plaguing it since the game was launched. It’s why people are complaining that they just don’t find it “fun” like they did Diablo 2—and it might just be why the reviews seem not to capture these issues.

(The Real Money Auction House if anything just makes these issues worse, but I’m looking mostly at the gold one this time.)

Marx and the Alienated Labourer

"Workers of the world: stay a while, and listen."
Marx’s “Marxian” economics (or “political economy” depending on who you ask) is hellishly complex and difficult. It doesn’t really have that much to do with what we think of as “economics”, and doesn’t have much to do with what we think of when we think of “communists”, either. Most of what Marx wrote wasn’t really about communism or socialism or any of that, anyway. His game was about criticizing the problems that he saw in capitalism.

Some things were probably accurate, some likely weren’t, and a LOT of it is opaque. It’s still handy to know when you’re poking at some of the issues with a market, though–and Diablo 3 is as much a market as it is a game.

One of the handiest ideas in the Marxian tradition is about “alienation of labour”. What’s that? In short, it’s the idea that there’s no true connection between what you do and the product that comes out the other end. Marx (and others) saw what was going on with the factories of the industrial revolution and realized that people weren’t necessarily going to have the pride of creation that they used to, because they don’t really make things. They might contribute a nut here, or a bolt there, or maybe they sanded down some pointy bit, but they’ll never see the finished product, and they don’t necessarily feel like they made anything. It’s even worse with modern office-type jobs: even if you’re contributing something important, you aren’t doing the same thing as a skilled craftsman was doing back before the industrial revolution.

Sure, you get paid for your time. Sure, you can use that money to buy other things. But it all boils down to cash; there’s no direct connection between the things that you did and the things that you get. It’s indirect and, in many minds, unsatisfactory. That’s why you get so many middle-aged men puttering around in a shop in their garage, and why knitting has become this massive, ubiquitous international subculture. They want that direct connection between labour and product.

(Seriously. Never, ever mess with knitters. They are legion and they are ARMED.)

You can still get that feeling in video games, though. RPGs, especially, give you the sense that you’ve earned something, that you’ve made something. Sure, the labor and work involved is a bit obtuse and arcane, with you clubbing some poor orc to death a bunch of times in order to get a neat sword—but there’s still that connection there between the thing that you did and the thing that you get. When you’ve got some guy strutting around Orgrimmar with his new dragon mount and glowy sword, you know he’s saying “look at what I did! Look at what I earned!” That direct connection’s the key.


"Sweet gear. How much did it cost you?"
Diablo 3 severs that connection. Since everything boils down to gold, you quickly become aware that the direct connection is only an illusion. Sure, you could just use the stuff that you’ve found, and people do. But you’re going to know that the stuff you’re using is substandard; and, eventually, you’re going to be forced to hit the Auction House or the forums just to be able to keep up with the punishing difficulty of high-level play.

The gold is ALWAYS there, hidden under the surface. That knowledge is ALWAYS going to be standing between you and that sense of accomplishment. Seeing someone else in awesome gear is ALWAYS going to be devalued in your eyes, because you know that they could have just bought it. Even looking at the auction house is ALWAYS going to make it absolutely impossible to ignore the big golden elephant in the room. You’ll never forget what your gear really is, or what it’s really worth.

If you don’t buy the gear, you’ll feel like a sucker. If you do buy the gear (and sell the stuff you get), you’ll be alienated from what you made, just as Marx said. It’s all indirect. It’s all just cash. It’s all unsatisfying.

Everything Has Its Price
It gets worse. The Marxians may have come up with alienation, but regular “neoclassical” econ has something to say too. Neoclassical econ is partially about sorting out the pricing of stuff; whereas the Marxians drew a distinction between something’s “use value” and “exchange value”, more mainstream econ says that it’s quite a bit simpler: things cost whatever people are willing to pay for them. A lot of microeconomics focuses on what conditions are necessary for a market to “clear”: that is, when sellers manage to find buyers for all their goods.


Demand curves shifting up: NOT what's happening in Diablo.
There’s a lot to it. The math can be nightmarish. But here’s a microeconomic lesson that people are learning on the Auction House right now: their stuff really is worth what people pay for it. Full stop. No more. No less. If you can find someone who’s willing to buy a bushel of corn for five bucks, then guess what? It’s worth five bucks. If you can’t? Then it wasn’t worth five bucks. It was worth less than that. Maybe it was worth three bucks. Maybe two. But, ultimately, the seller doesn’t decide what it’s worth. The buyer and sellers do it together.

Of course, sellers and buyers have to get together first. Buyers have to see all their different options in order to make a maximally informed decision. And if you’re bartering, then it can be really difficult for buyers to sort out what something’s really worth. Is a bushel of wheat worth two piglets? Is it worth [x] dozens of eggs? Hard to say. Add a currency that’s convertible into everything though, and it ends up mostly working out. A bushel of wheat costs a certain amount of cash, and a piglet costs a certain amount of cash, and you can compare the value just by comparing the cost. Marxian alienation or no, it does make things simpler.

Let’s bring this back to gaming. In previous small-scale RPGs, you were mostly bartering, and you didn’t know what all the options were or what people were REALLY willing to trade for the items. Sure, you could usually sell your gear to some NPC vendor, but so what? The gold could only buy a certain subset of items. The REAL stuff, the stuff you actually wanted, was bartered: you bartered your time spent monster-bashing for the gear that came with it, or you bartered gear with your friends and guildmates. And those values were mostly whatever you wanted them to be.

Even MMOs work that way: the stuff you really want can’t be bought with anything but time and effort. Free-to-play games change that up a bit with their cash shop, and there’s usually some kind of black market, but the trend remains. You traded your effort for rewards, and both were worth what you THOUGHT they was worth.

Diablo 3′s auction house changes everything. It provides a near-infinite amount of sellers and a near-infinite amount of buyers. Searching for the best deal is (relatively) easy for buyers, and you have no reason NOT to take the best deal, since all the sellers are completely faceless and anonymous. EVERYTHING is priced in a discrete currency, so you can precisely and quickly gauge the value of goods. And with the way that Diablo 3′s items prioritize a clear, easily understood set of stats, it’s easy to weigh which gear is more usable, too. Driving a hard bargain couldn’t be easier for buyers.


Amazing design. Shame there's no point in getting his stuff.
“Bargain” is the word: everything’s cheap. It’s so very cheap. Thanks to all those sellers driving down prices, you can get amazing, top-notch gear on the auction house for a pittance. Early “Rare” gear, which only occasionally drops in Normal mode, can cost a few thousand gold, which players can farm up in a pretty short time. Gear that outclasses anything you find, anything you find, is so incredibly cheap that it takes your breath away. The market’s set the prices, and those prices are damned low.

Seems great, at first—until you find out that the stuff that YOU get isn’t worth anything at all. Since the gear outclasses anything you find, you don’t really have any need to use the stuff you get. You can’t sell it, either: most of it is low-level “magic” gear that is so incredibly outclassed by the things other people are selling, it won’t sell on the auction house at any price.

You could turn it into crafting commodities, but those are just as cheap as the gear, if not cheaper. And why would you bother crafting in the first place? Crafting in Diablo 3 is a expensive, randomness-plagued experience. The stuff you make likely isn’t worth much, and even if it’s perfect, it’s still not going to be worth any more than the cheap stuff you’re finding on the auction house.

Inevitably, auction-savvy players realize that they only thing they can do with the vast, vast majority of the stuff they find is to sell it to the vendors for almost nothing. The stuff that they find is worthless. It’s worthless to others, and since they’re buyers just like everybody else, it’s worthless to them, too.

That’s what that big, convenient Auction House economy ends up telling these already-alienated players: nearly everything they find and make is worthless. Crafting’s worthless, drops are worthless, gems are worthless, all of it. Sure, that might change as they level up to 60 and get into Inferno mode: but that’s hours and hours and hours of gameplay where you’re just trashing everything you find. Players have already complained that gear in Diablo 3 isn’t really that interesting. How much worse it when it’s literally garbage?

Blessed Ignorance

Not pictured: The player's gnawing ennui.
These two issues add up to real dissatisfaction. You aren’t really connected to what you make anymore: you never use it, and don’t trade it to friends, but just sell it on a big faceless auction house. That might be okay if you were making good money out of the deal, but the vast majority of players don’t see a dime out of anything but the most valuable gear. There’s no point to either crafting or looting. It’ll all just get trashed anyway. If it weren’t for the pittance you get from vendors, you might as well just leave everything to rot.

I think that’s one of the main reasons why people have been so vocally dissatisfied with the game. Even if they don’t realize that it’s the combination of the gold economy and the deflated value of what they find and make, it’s always there, right under the surface. It robs people of a lot of the satisfaction that they could get out of game like Diablo 3. Diablo 3′s game mechanics are so good, too, that it’s almost tragic that this is taking place.

Worst of all, there’s no going back. These issues are all about knowledge. If you know that all the awesome stuff that you find is ultimately only valued in gold, and if you know that it’s not even worth that much gold, you’ll never forget it. Even if you never actually use the Auction House, you’re going to be aware of what the options are. Some may argue that they can just turn their back on it and ignore it. They might even succeed. But you don’t know if you’re one of those people. For many others, it’s always going to hang like a shadow over the whole experience.

There’s a way out, though. NEVER VISIT THE AUCTION HOUSE. EVER.


Don't seek it out. It's not worth it.
I know it sounds drastic, even ridiculous, but it may be the best choice. You will never have to deal with any of these issues; not the gold economy, not the low prices, none of it. You won’t even know.

There’s precedent, too. Look at all the positive Diablo 3 reviews that are out there. Notice something missing? Like, say, everything I just mentioned? I don’t think that’s because they’re being fawning or fanboys or anything like that. I think the answers simpler: they gave the game those high scores and the laudatory reviews because they played the best version of the game: the one where you never even see the Auction House.

High-profile reviews at places like IGN or Gamespot rave about “finding new loot” and “trading with your friends”, and a few mention the prospect of selling things on the auction house. Look at Arthur Gies’s incredibly positive review on The Verge: he never really talked about the experience of going to the Auction House and replacing everything every few levels, or the realization that crafting wasn’t worth it. He didn’t really talk about the Auction House at all. Many happy reviewers like Gies didn’t, because that isn’t the experience that they had. They looted and traded and crafted and had a grand old time, precisely because the gold economy and the Auction House weren’t looming over their whole experience.


He's enjoying himself. You should too.
So, now, you have a choice to make, at least if you’re lucky enough to be one of those people who hasn’t used the Auction House yet.

Do you want to play the version of Diablo 3 that got the game all those amazingly high scores and had Arthur Gies saying that Diablo 2 was “obsolete”? Or do you want to play the version where so many people are vaguely dissatisfied and not sure why? Do you want the economy that’s fun and rewarding and exciting? Or do you want the one that makes you feel like you aren’t playing the game properly unless you trash almost everything you make and find?

Me, I think the choice is clear. Stay the HELL away from Diablo 3′s Auction House. Never click on it. Never even think about it. Pretend it doesn’t exist. Do your best to BELIEVE it doesn’t exist.

For Heaven’s sake: play the better game.


TL DR; The auction house makes upgrades so convenient, cheap and accessible that the satisfaction from earning your own gear is almost gone. It in effect cheapens the time you spend and the items you get. Every single stat is essential "gold find" repackaged, because that's all that ever matter now.

Blizzard said that you could do the game without the auction house, but who likes getting left behind?

I know it's wistful thinking but I really just want them to scrap the AH and create a trade bazaar world with 20-30ish player limit so I can just barter trade to my hearts content.

Or just revert to D2 style of game lobbies where I can join my "Trading Post"s and my "GFG GEAR FT" games
Silidons
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2813 Posts
July 20 2012 10:31 GMT
#2
IMO AH is fine. It's the lack of a server list that makes you feel alone.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte
zomgE
Profile Joined January 2012
498 Posts
July 20 2012 11:14 GMT
#3
i don't see how anyone would think the trading games, chat channels etc were better than AH besides nostalgia.
or wait, did some people use the auction house the first time they were playing? lol, cos that's the only time i felt i didn't want to use it and only used what i found. after reaching inferno however i found the ah useful and a quick way to trade.
dibban
Profile Joined July 2008
Sweden1279 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 11:28:29
July 20 2012 11:28 GMT
#4
Diablo 3 has, sadly, become a game for the mindless zombies. No hope left for it.
이제동 - 이영호 since '07.
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
July 20 2012 12:02 GMT
#5
On July 20 2012 19:31 Silidons wrote:
IMO AH is fine. It's the lack of a server list that makes you feel alone.


Why post without reading OP? It has nothing to do with feeling alone in the game. Maybe trough a hell of a paraphrasing but not really.

OT: I didnt like the article. I tought it was really pretentious with all the "Marxonian economics" stuff and while pretending to have substance, it actually didnt. Just a simple tought dragged out over a wall of text hoping that way it would sound more convincing and a made up punchline that i felt the autor really just tagged at the end for the sake of giving the article some artificial meaning in fear it would end up being just a well tought out whine post. The punchline is " dont use the AH if you want to enjoy the game". Its weak and far too stretched.

I do however believe there is some, if not all, truth in there. However I wouldnt overanalyze anything about this game as I dont see the point. No need to break our heads with this one; its a bad game, as simple as that.
sorry for dem one liners
Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany2959 Posts
July 20 2012 12:09 GMT
#6
On July 20 2012 20:14 zomgE wrote:
i don't see how anyone would think the trading games, chat channels etc were better than AH besides nostalgia.
or wait, did some people use the auction house the first time they were playing? lol, cos that's the only time i felt i didn't want to use it and only used what i found. after reaching inferno however i found the ah useful and a quick way to trade.


Yep basically this.

And these days, much more so than by the time Diablo 2 was at it's peak, trading in auction houses would've been very apparent even if Blizzard had no ingame AH.
I mean nowadays trading on eBay or sites specifically for game trading is very well known.

If you feel compelled to use the auction house because a friend you play with does so, well what if that friend used some outside auction house? You'd be in the same position, apart from not knowing if its safe.
WrathBringerReturns said: No no no. Sarcasm is detected in the voice. When this forum is riddled with stupidity, you think I can tell every post apart? Fair enough it was intended sarcastically, was it obvious? Of course not.
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 12:15:00
July 20 2012 12:13 GMT
#7
The article is basically AH before inferno, as the result while somewhat interesting and raise alot of points, alot of assumption it based on are not correct. Basically it's a rage post of someone who spent 5 hour on the game.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
Kreb
Profile Joined September 2010
4834 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 12:25:52
July 20 2012 12:14 GMT
#8
Some pretty good points. Kinda overexplained or overanalyzed, your TLDR explains the core issue without a lot of the ramblings in the post. His sections about economics and all that wasnt needed to explain his point.

I dont think not using the AH is really gonna be a good option either though, which really is the point hes trying to get across. The game is made with the AH in mind, which means people are supposed to use it, which in turn means people are supposed to have a lot better gear than what they could ever dream of farming for themselves. Thus, if you decide to farm yourself and not use the AH, you're likely gonna have an extremely hard time beating the game and its gonna end up in a lot of frustration about how impossible the game is. And rightly so, the game is almost impossible without AH.

You could argue the game would have been better if the AH was never placed there to begin with and everything was massively nerfed, balanced around gear levels you reach by only farming yourself. Maybe it would have. But then you'd probably have to completely disable all kinds of trading (making all loot soulbound WoW-style, for example), or 3rd party markets would just pop up and create own markets, taking the role that the AH is currently filling.

Another point he didnt touch was how the AH doesnt really just remove the gratification of finding loot (I totally agree on that point), but it does actually add other types of gratification. There is a certain amount of gratification in selling a good item you found, finding an underpriced piece of equipment and sniping it fast, or just simply saving up X amount of gold and then burning it all on that one piece of equipment (weapon usually) that you really wanted. Its a different kind of gratification. Possibly inferior, possibly not something games should be based on, but its still there. So arguing that the AH only removes fun isnt true, it just removes a certain kind of fun, while adding other kinds.

Also, AH makes a broader amount of items fun. Imagine an AH-less world and you find a 1600dps 2hand sword...... playing as a demon hunter. With the AH, thats a fun drop. Without the AH....yea...
Denzil
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom4193 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 12:22:47
July 20 2012 12:21 GMT
#9
I feel the problem lies in the fact that there is no way to take items out of the economy. When you find an item it isn't "Oh wow I wonder how much I can sell it for!" It's more so me dreading how many there are already on the auction house. This isn't a problem that's going to fix itself, it's going to get worse over time as there still remains no way to remove items from the economy.
Diablo 2 managed it with ladder resets, I don't think Blizzard will end up doing that and as a result this will just end up getting worse and worse and removing the pleasure in finding "new" items and trying to sell them

I'm currently trying out hardcore and seeing if I get a better experience of the game, one where items actually matter and when you die you lose your shit and it gets removed from the economy
Anna: So Sen how will you prepare for your revenge v MC? Sen: With a smile.
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 12:22:44
July 20 2012 12:22 GMT
#10
BTW, if OP ever played FF14, they tried to do away with the Auction house, and use a bazaar / trade system. OMFG what a clusterfk it was. After limitless nerd rage they had to add AH back in, except since it was added on the spot, it was REALLY sub-par design and they ended up pissing off everyone... again.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
Breavman
Profile Joined September 2004
Sweden598 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 12:28:47
July 20 2012 12:26 GMT
#11
The basic argument is spot on, this is my main problem with the game. Diablo is and was always about loot. But with the current way the AH is set up, there is so little reward. Identifying a rare isn't even exiting. You measure an item not for what it brings but for how far off it is from the perfect item. Creating better items and better drops would do nothing at all, except creating inflation. The AH is a horrible idea.
Denzil
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom4193 Posts
July 20 2012 12:32 GMT
#12
On July 20 2012 21:26 Breavman wrote:
The basic argument is spot on, this is my main problem with the game. Diablo is and was always about loot. But with the current way the AH is set up, there is so little reward. Identifying a rare isn't even exiting. You measure an item not for what it brings but for how far off it is from the perfect item. Creating better items and better drops would do nothing at all, except creating inflation. The AH is a horrible idea.


Isn't that what you did in D2? I can't tell if your point of how far off it is from the perfect item is negative or positive but in D2 whenever I made a HOTO, CTA or found a HoZ I was always measuring it's worth based on if it was close to 40 res, 6/6/4 or 200% ED
Anna: So Sen how will you prepare for your revenge v MC? Sen: With a smile.
taldarimAltar
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
973 Posts
July 20 2012 12:32 GMT
#13
Ok I guess I'm unique in my way that I hate the shopping market convenience and prefer to trade. I played D2 a shit load for several years, trading was so fun. I found haggling and getting deals thrilling, not so much now trawling the AH flipping 1d11h auctions. Chat channels and trading are not purely nostalgia, that's pure bullshit. Bnet 2.0 is so anti-social. Trading is fun because of imperfect information and difference in demand for different items by different people. The AH is so cold and faceless.

On black markets popping up as a result of not having an AH, this does not mean that trading is eliminated. A black market operate with real money and cannot fully replace the AH. The bone of contention is the gold auction house.
taldarimAltar
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
973 Posts
July 20 2012 12:38 GMT
#14
On July 20 2012 21:32 Denzil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 21:26 Breavman wrote:
The basic argument is spot on, this is my main problem with the game. Diablo is and was always about loot. But with the current way the AH is set up, there is so little reward. Identifying a rare isn't even exiting. You measure an item not for what it brings but for how far off it is from the perfect item. Creating better items and better drops would do nothing at all, except creating inflation. The AH is a horrible idea.


Isn't that what you did in D2? I can't tell if your point of how far off it is from the perfect item is negative or positive but in D2 whenever I made a HOTO, CTA or found a HoZ I was always measuring it's worth based on if it was close to 40 res, 6/6/4 or 200% ED


Yes the gambling lottery mechanic is still there but weakened by the ease of which a comparable item can be got on the AH, the price in the AH are set almost purely by supply and demand, this makes items only worth what others are willing to pay and the cheapest they can be. When we get decent items we feel bad because they sell for so cheap on the AH, that's why there's probably so much ill sentiment towards mediocre drops. Item inflation makes them feel mediocre.
zomgE
Profile Joined January 2012
498 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 12:39:32
July 20 2012 12:38 GMT
#15
On July 20 2012 21:32 Denzil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 21:26 Breavman wrote:
The basic argument is spot on, this is my main problem with the game. Diablo is and was always about loot. But with the current way the AH is set up, there is so little reward. Identifying a rare isn't even exiting. You measure an item not for what it brings but for how far off it is from the perfect item. Creating better items and better drops would do nothing at all, except creating inflation. The AH is a horrible idea.


Isn't that what you did in D2? I can't tell if your point of how far off it is from the perfect item is negative or positive but in D2 whenever I made a HOTO, CTA or found a HoZ I was always measuring it's worth based on if it was close to 40 res, 6/6/4 or 200% ED

nah, in D2 everyone found their own items and combined their own enigmas and hotos with selffound runes. oh wait.
Breavman
Profile Joined September 2004
Sweden598 Posts
July 20 2012 12:41 GMT
#16
On July 20 2012 21:32 Denzil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 21:26 Breavman wrote:
The basic argument is spot on, this is my main problem with the game. Diablo is and was always about loot. But with the current way the AH is set up, there is so little reward. Identifying a rare isn't even exiting. You measure an item not for what it brings but for how far off it is from the perfect item. Creating better items and better drops would do nothing at all, except creating inflation. The AH is a horrible idea.


Isn't that what you did in D2? I can't tell if your point of how far off it is from the perfect item is negative or positive but in D2 whenever I made a HOTO, CTA or found a HoZ I was always measuring it's worth based on if it was close to 40 res, 6/6/4 or 200% ED


I guess my point of view is more the casual player's. I didn't even know what a perfect item would look like i D2. A good useable item could come in different shapes with different kind of stats. There was an element of surprise. I'm quite the noob in D3 as well, but I already know exactly what stats I look for on my gear and everything which doesn't fit the template is worthless. It's just a grind increasing a few points here and there when I can afford, and it's boring.
finkelboy
Profile Joined December 2008
Italy372 Posts
July 20 2012 12:55 GMT
#17
On July 20 2012 21:13 ragz_gt wrote:
The article is basically AH before inferno, as the result while somewhat interesting and raise alot of points, alot of assumption it based on are not correct. Basically it's a rage post of someone who spent 5 hour on the game.

Agree, the article starts the right way, but becomes ridiculous than.
You know YOU CAN'T FUCKIN PASS act 1 without AH. And i'm even not so sure about Hell.
Ma jae yoon, what else? By.hero next bonjwa
Denzil
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom4193 Posts
July 20 2012 12:58 GMT
#18
On July 20 2012 21:38 zomgE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 21:32 Denzil wrote:
On July 20 2012 21:26 Breavman wrote:
The basic argument is spot on, this is my main problem with the game. Diablo is and was always about loot. But with the current way the AH is set up, there is so little reward. Identifying a rare isn't even exiting. You measure an item not for what it brings but for how far off it is from the perfect item. Creating better items and better drops would do nothing at all, except creating inflation. The AH is a horrible idea.


Isn't that what you did in D2? I can't tell if your point of how far off it is from the perfect item is negative or positive but in D2 whenever I made a HOTO, CTA or found a HoZ I was always measuring it's worth based on if it was close to 40 res, 6/6/4 or 200% ED

nah, in D2 everyone found their own items and combined their own enigmas and hotos with selffound runes. oh wait.


worked my balls off to make an enigma

then discovered D2jsp oh my god did life get easy then
Anna: So Sen how will you prepare for your revenge v MC? Sen: With a smile.
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
July 20 2012 13:04 GMT
#19
if you are going to call every stat gold find because it just allows you to farm more stuff to sell, then the same could be said in diablo 2. beating the game wasnt difficult, you just had to get to a certain gear point, after that everything was about making things faster to farm.

and if you think finding upgrades on the auction house is easy, then to be blunt your gear is shit. when you require all 6 affixs to be certain stats or the item is useless come ask again about how easy the AH is ;D
TheFear
Profile Joined July 2010
United States55 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 13:11:50
July 20 2012 13:07 GMT
#20
On July 20 2012 21:21 Denzil wrote:
I feel the problem lies in the fact that there is no way to take items out of the economy. When you find an item it isn't "Oh wow I wonder how much I can sell it for!" It's more so me dreading how many there are already on the auction house. This isn't a problem that's going to fix itself, it's going to get worse over time as there still remains no way to remove items from the economy.
Diablo 2 managed it with ladder resets, I don't think Blizzard will end up doing that and as a result this will just end up getting worse and worse and removing the pleasure in finding "new" items and trying to sell them

I'm currently trying out hardcore and seeing if I get a better experience of the game, one where items actually matter and when you die you lose your shit and it gets removed from the economy


^- Ding we have a winner, but seriously I agree.

Some points in OP undoubtedly valid and a good argument for playing HC mode. Although I definitely realize that not everyone can embrace so much lost time/gold/items from things like a disconnect or server side lag (although more seldom now in my experience). The thing that makes it viable to me is that I do not lose my stash, gold, and artisans - so even though my character may be lost at some point - there is a very nice window of time where he'd make me more gold in his farming than he has of stuff on him. At first I really thought I wanted to see an RMAH for HC, and now I am not so sure it is a good idea to tarnish that side of the community in that sense as well. Granted gold can still be bought and sold in the grey markets in order to facilitate real money trading as well or in private sales between two people that know one another, but a good portion of people appreciate that HC-mode has no in game money elements.

Since I play the game for longer hours than most, a vast majority of time is spent on inferno in HC. This may bias my view on the effective value of my finds on the auction house. Compared to a casual player who plays maybe 1-2 hours a day tops, clearly they won't be able to see the best end game stuff unless they pay for it or get extraordinarily lucky on a few of their own finds upon arriving close to the end game. If I did not have access to at least the gold AH though in terms of HC, it would definitely take a crazy amount of time to be able to reasonably handle anything from A1 inferno and onward out on one's own. In actuality, even if you sought out trades in forums and/or trade channels you would still be up against it in this kind of scenario. It's a pretty steep difficulty curve as no doubt many of you have experienced on both modes.

As far as the RMAH, I did use it mainly to sell but also to buy what I perceived to be undervalued items. This was my short-term goal from the release of the game into the first few weeks and I think at a certain point I decided to cash out when I thought all my wizard's gear would get a healthy premium price. If I had waited just 1-2 more weeks, I know much of my gear would have been worth a good chunk less than what I was already used to seeing. I know much of it was top notch at the time, but it wasn't "end game" material. This made my decision easy, as I knew eventually my intended goal was to play HC - since that is what I have enjoyed most since the D2 era as well. During that time things were given respectable values, and it did seem like a good opportunity for anyone farming inferno content to make some bucks on the side if they wanted to. I can understand that over time with limited gold sinks inflation has inevitably occurred to a large degree, and although the core game has a lot of potential it does seem like the RMAH and even GAH while convenient are both double-edged swords. In considering this article's POV you can see that while using them gives you a substantial advantage compared to farming all your own gear, the realization that the investment of your in-game time is rewarded in a relatively trivial matter on the road to inferno is something I can understand. One thought that comes to my mind, that may not really solve the core issues but at least gives people a good incentive for leveling alts, would be to implement lower level nephalem valor stacking tiers. So for example, chars in normal mode would not receive the benefit but in nightmare they'd get 5% mf bonus per stack and in hell mode they would get 10% mf bonus per stack. I think normal is fun because at least the bosses drop at least one rare, so you've got that to look forward to, and from there on out you've got a huge gap between early NM and late hell mode where people literally spend hours without finding 1 rare, let alone any legendary, to identify. Granted even if this was done those items would be relatively easy to find for a small sum of gold, but at the very least you'd get a somewhat softened up but still considerable bonus for stacking nephalems from as soon as you begin nightmare. You could also do it in terms of leveling, so for instance 30-40 you'd get 5%, 40-59 you'd get 10%, and then at 60 you receive the current one at 15% per stack.

At the risk of sounding like I am trying to migrate all of you to try HC , I do want to talk about another contrast among the two. All in all I don't see a firm solution to solving the RMAH/GAH problems on the softcore mode side, but if any of you wanted to try a fresh experience on HC you'd see that the economies are vastly different. With gear being constantly removed from the economy in the form of people dying, and gold being spent for all the things you would in softcore (including low to mid level gear in order to re-gear alternates) you can see that although some things may fluctuate in value gold maintains a relatively steadier valuation over a longer period of time. So the people just starting out with lower level items to sell, if they are good in-level items, they could realistically start making gold at a fair rate right from the beginning by selling that gear off. A lot of players who are making alternate characters are more than happy to pay for certain items in order to make their leveling experience a bit faster, since they value their time spent farming inferno. Another interesting thing about it would be the gems, in softcore I am unsure what the most valuable gems would be at this point (when I quit I believe it was the emerald), but on HC you can pretty much bet that Amethysts and even Rubies are fairly certain to maintain a consistently high value compared to Topazes and even Emeralds. Since amethysts are vitality in socketables, as well as % life in helm and LOH on higher tier weapons you can clearly see the value there. Rubies with their % exp bonus in lower leveling on helms, as well as the socketing of a weapon for extra damage until LOH is actually necessary, have a clear amount of utility as well. So for instance when you hit early hell mode you can find a Tome of Jewelcrafting, and each one of those can sell for something ballpark 2.5k gold (last I checked). So already you're talking about finding significant values in commodities and allow you to build up your "gold bankroll" to gear up characters on the road to 60 and still (hopefully) a decent amount left over once you get there to keep progressing.

Lastly, if you do consider trying an alt or two on HC, keep in mind not to put all your eggs in one basket unless you can handle that style of play. Yesterday I literally lost a 100+ hour 20+ million gold lvl 60 A1 Inferno Barb to a brief stutter in my otherwise fairly consistent connection. Normally I would have been out of commission from farming A1 for at least a few days, if not more. Luckily for me I at least have a lvl 60 monk that I built nearly as fast as getting 60 on my barb. Although having all your resources channeled into one character and avoiding death for the long-term would be the optimal way to increase game wealth - it is a pretty heavy risk and high reward path. Where-as getting at least two characters to 60 would take more time grinding the levels, but is sure to pay dividends if one of them suffers an untimely death. In any case it's just some food for thought, I honestly thought I would be more devastated by his death than I was, but I just accepted the fact that at least I didn't make any mistake of my own to lose that character, and even though he was clearly worth a lot of gold (let alone time invested) I think I handled it very well. There are plenty of guides out there that would walk you through some pivotal advice when considering trying hardcore mode, but I think that if the kind of issues addressed in this OP are part of what are killing your D3 gaming experience - it couldn't hurt to give it another run on HC-mode in order to see if this side of the game fits you better. The worst that can happen is that you have some fun and lose a character down the road, at which point you can decide if you are fit for HC and want to rebuild or you can let the game go until at least some other end game options like PvP come on board - knowing that you got a lot of entertainment value and exhausted all the in-game options.

I really think that Blizzard has a hidden gem on their hands here with D3, granted many people are discontent for a variety of reasons and others of us have truly enjoyed hundreds of hours of play despite some clearly significant flaws with the game. I am hopeful that they'll address a lot of these issues before, but the RMAH/GAH markets on the softcore side are definitely something I cannot imagine being completely solved. Too much of it has already been done, and even if it was started from scratch (yea I know it's not going to happen) - I don't really know what they'd do to make for more gold sinks or improve the in-game economy. Perhaps the only option would be to start ladder seasons over again or something along those lines, but given the RMAH I think the ship has essentially set sail on that option. Hardcore, in my humble opinion, has an economy that's built to last for many of the reasons mentioned above along with of course all the standard built in gold sinks across the board (cost of potions, repairs, 15% gold fee on AH sales, etc...)

Phew, that was a pretty wordy post. Sorry if I side tracked a little bit from the initial discussion, but I think it all relatively interconnected.

TLDR; softcore has issues, I think HC has some issues also but the market is sound. Check it out if you don't mind losing characters, you might enjoy the experience. It's a lot of fun in my book.


"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell
scDeluX
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada1341 Posts
July 20 2012 13:16 GMT
#21
I feel the article is wrote for a casual player that plays diablo 2 hours a week, is still level 39 and don't know what a NV stack is. It keeps telling us not to use the AH wtf? People complaining that inferno is a endless grind wants d3 to be an MMO or simply another game. It's not. That is what D3 is about, endless farming with minuscule chance of drops. Diablo 2 was the same, ppl forget fast. If you wanted a self found enigma you had to do thousands of council run. Put the same amount of time farming act3 and you will find an equivalent item in terms of power.

About the AH it's the best thing that could happen to diablo series. It has improvement to make like the rest of the game but it is still the on the right track. AH/RMAH has been half the fun for me.
Brood War is forever
bruteMax
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada339 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 13:24:33
July 20 2012 13:24 GMT
#22
Long-winded rehash of what is already a well-known issue.

Don't use the AH if you dont like it. It's not a drug. D3 allows you to play the game any way you like to. And it's largely a solo experience anyways, so you're getting left behind whom exactly?

Hardcore neatly solves most of the current problems with D3. And it's a hallmark Blizzard product, so you know they'll be improving it over the coming few months.

Too many whiners reflecting back on D2 with rose-colored glasses...
I'm the benevolent dictator you've been looking for.
Denzil
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom4193 Posts
July 20 2012 13:30 GMT
#23
On July 20 2012 22:24 bruteMax wrote:
Long-winded rehash of what is already a well-known issue.

Don't use the AH if you dont like it. It's not a drug. D3 allows you to play the game any way you like to. And it's largely a solo experience anyways, so you're getting left behind whom exactly?

Hardcore neatly solves most of the current problems with D3. And it's a hallmark Blizzard product, so you know they'll be improving it over the coming few months.

Too many whiners reflecting back on D2 with rose-colored glasses...


curious, when was uber trist and the whole keys organs torches and annis added into D2?
Anna: So Sen how will you prepare for your revenge v MC? Sen: With a smile.
MrASAP
Profile Joined May 2011
United Kingdom63 Posts
July 20 2012 13:37 GMT
#24
This exact thing happened to me the other day, i never looked at the AH before, i just assumed it would eveything would be insanely expensive. The other day i randomly took a look for the first time, i thought to my self what sort of legendary items there were, i wasnt intending to buy i just wanted to look. And then it hits me, an awsome spear way better than mine for 150k or something stupid like that, i bought it and then thought i wonder what else is dirt cheap. The answer is pretty much eveything. I played for an hour or two after spending nearly all my gold on better gear and just got bored. As it says the drops become worthless. I cant be bothered to play anymore it seems pointless.
Monsen
Profile Joined December 2002
Germany2548 Posts
July 20 2012 13:56 GMT
#25
Can only second the notion that the inability to remove items from the system (Softcore, which I assume the vast majority of users is playing) completely breaks the game. After only a few weeks the economy is already at a point where only the very best items are interesting to the player. Every time D3s RNG generates a top lvl item the bar for "loot that you can be happy about finding" is raised.
Every day millions of players "work" on raising that bar even further.
It boggles my mind how Blizzard could not see this coming.
11 years and counting- TL #680
pirouni
Profile Joined May 2010
Greece31 Posts
July 20 2012 15:35 GMT
#26
Everything is working as intended. AH is a nice tool when you get stuck while progressing. Sometimes you get crap loot, sometimes you get good loot for another class.

I am interested in the pvp balance coming in the next patch.
LingsAreBunnies
Profile Joined September 2011
United States103 Posts
July 20 2012 17:37 GMT
#27
How would not having the AH fix anything though, without it, people would still try and use the most efficient form of trading, so people would just use something like d2jsp again wouldnt they?
Psyqo
Profile Joined November 2007
United States401 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 19:10:15
July 20 2012 19:10 GMT
#28
I'm one of those supernerds in the minority where having the AH fascinates me, and has pulled me into D3 much deeper than D2 ever did. I suppose that's because I work with investments/economics every day.

The way I see it, every single gold I make, whether from a level 1 monster or what, adds up to a new weapon, or to real dollars in the future. It's a win/win in my book.
Silidons
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2813 Posts
July 20 2012 21:24 GMT
#29
On July 20 2012 21:02 NukeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 19:31 Silidons wrote:
IMO AH is fine. It's the lack of a server list that makes you feel alone.


Why post without reading OP? It has nothing to do with feeling alone in the game. Maybe trough a hell of a paraphrasing but not really.

OT: I didnt like the article. I tought it was really pretentious with all the "Marxonian economics" stuff and while pretending to have substance, it actually didnt. Just a simple tought dragged out over a wall of text hoping that way it would sound more convincing and a made up punchline that i felt the autor really just tagged at the end for the sake of giving the article some artificial meaning in fear it would end up being just a well tought out whine post. The punchline is " dont use the AH if you want to enjoy the game". Its weak and far too stretched.

I do however believe there is some, if not all, truth in there. However I wouldnt overanalyze anything about this game as I dont see the point. No need to break our heads with this one; its a bad game, as simple as that.

I read most of it. In D2, I always used d2jsp to get any item I needed, I didn't only MF for it or ask in-game for it. The AH brought jsp to the masses (well, then put the RMAH on top of it). I sincerely think the AH is GOOD for the game, it would have been amazing to have a AH in D2. It's the actual GAME that is shit, combined with the lack of a social atmosphere.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte
unkkz
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Norway2196 Posts
July 20 2012 21:31 GMT
#30
Man up and play hardcore, problem solved
fishjie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1519 Posts
July 20 2012 21:54 GMT
#31
impossible to progress in the game without AH so not an option.

i was struggling in NIGHTMARE difficulty on my barb and was wondering wtf why am i sucking so badly, because i roflstomped NM in d2. then i just started buying AR gear on the auction, and then from that point i was a god. until i hit inferno. at that point if you dont use AH you might as well just uninstall.
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
July 20 2012 23:15 GMT
#32
What a joke, I am farming act 3 with a witch doctor in mostly self-found gear and has been doing this pretty much the entire time. The auction house can only HELP people who need the hand-me-downs to outgear the content in order to progress. I'd argue that if Blizzard didn't include an auction house there'd be far greater masses complaining about how such a feature could be missing from a mass online game at this day and age.
DongLongJohnson
Profile Joined July 2012
Germany143 Posts
July 20 2012 23:27 GMT
#33
The AH is one of the reasons Diablo 3 is such a terrible game and why all intelligent players already quit this shit.
Dfgj
Profile Joined May 2008
Singapore5922 Posts
July 20 2012 23:32 GMT
#34
On July 21 2012 06:31 unkkz wrote:
Man up and play hardcore, problem solved

What do you think happens when you get to Inferno?

You'll spend 2x as much time on the AH because you want to overgear before doing anything.
forsooth
Profile Joined February 2011
United States3648 Posts
July 20 2012 23:44 GMT
#35
On July 20 2012 22:24 bruteMax wrote:
Long-winded rehash of what is already a well-known issue.

Don't use the AH if you dont like it. It's not a drug. D3 allows you to play the game any way you like to. And it's largely a solo experience anyways, so you're getting left behind whom exactly?

Hardcore neatly solves most of the current problems with D3. And it's a hallmark Blizzard product, so you know they'll be improving it over the coming few months.

Too many whiners reflecting back on D2 with rose-colored glasses...

Why would anyone play HC on those horrific servers? I can't even play a pub game without hitting a lag spike every 10 minutes.

Anyway, Blizzard done fucked up by making the game about gold rather than loot. It shifted the focus away from what you can find to what you can buy. It's boring.
Rotodyne
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United States2263 Posts
July 21 2012 00:11 GMT
#36
On July 21 2012 08:32 Dfgj wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2012 06:31 unkkz wrote:
Man up and play hardcore, problem solved

What do you think happens when you get to Inferno?

You'll spend 2x as much time on the AH because you want to overgear before doing anything.


If you farm for the next 80 years you might be able to beat it before you die. Hopefully they can prevent aging by then so I can beat Act 4 without using the RMAH in hardcore mode
I can only play starcraft when I am shit canned. IPXZERG is a god.
YODA_
Profile Joined June 2012
593 Posts
July 21 2012 00:32 GMT
#37
I do disagree on a few points. In a way, the AH DID make farming more exciting. In D2, if you played mostly solo, and didn't buy or trade much, finding a godly trapsin item as a WW barb was not exciting at all, i barely knew what a godly trapsin item was. In D3, I still get little nerd chills when a legendary sacred shield drops, or the lvl 63 axe. Even though I know I don't need that item, I know that they could potentially be worth millions of gold to me if they roll right, and i find that is my source of satisfaction. What annoys the everloving crap out of me is:

1. "Mid-tier" items are getting more and more worthless every day. I used to be excited about finding gloves with 160 dex, 80 vit, 52 lightning res and 65 AR. Now that is a dirt cheap item that i would probably have trouble selling at any price. With items never leaving the economy, items that were worth millions a short month ago are now worth 100k. What this means is that my pleasure gets less and less as I play, because I find fewer and fewer items that are even worth selling on the AH.
2. Legendaries are crap. In D2, seeing that color pop up.... ahhh so many good memories. There were just so many interesting legendary items, and many of them were very, very OP. In D3, the only things that even raise my pulse a tiny bit any more are legendary rings and occasionally a helm or shield. See a brown weapon? I don't even want to pick it up. That is 100% wrong right there.
3. Crafting is pure crap and retardedly expensive. I have hundreds of essence saved up, but will in all likelihood just end up selling it......because crafting is just a pointless exercise in randomness. This means high level items are even more crap much of the time, because the essence isn't even that useful.
4. Gems......DO NOTHING. Well, not nothing, but high level gems do not even come close to justifying the cost of making them, and since they can't drop.....you never get excited about finding one. Oh yay, another flawless square, another 800 of them, and I can finish my perfect star or w/e. Stupid, stupid design. It literally takes 15 minutes to even make a perfect star from scratch, and it's just clicking a button a hundred times or so.

Don't get me wrong, i enjoy the game, possibly because i don't have enough time to play hours at a time, and stuff like having an andys with 125 dex drop for me as a monk literally made my week. And I still find good AH deals, and the occasional item from actually playing. I recently got a couple mf items and started playing the swap game, and that has given me a decent increase in ok items, but 99% are still crap, and I can do multiple act 1 runs without finding a single item worth over 100k gold.
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
July 21 2012 00:48 GMT
#38
was all the same in d2, though people don't want to realise this
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 01:51:00
July 21 2012 01:49 GMT
#39
--- Nuked ---
InFkHand
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada46 Posts
July 21 2012 02:01 GMT
#40
the auction house removes any sort of social aspect from the game. it makes the game so bad it hurts my brain
hard work beats talent until talent starts working hard
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
July 21 2012 02:08 GMT
#41
On July 21 2012 09:48 freetgy wrote:
was all the same in d2, though people don't want to realise this

Bullshit. Remember needing Enigma to beat Hell? Windforce to do manageable damage? SoJ to beat Diablo?

I never found a High Rune. I never found a Windforce. I never made an Enigma. And I never gave a damn, because I could do everything I ever wanted to do without caring about having the best of the best.

The only time I ever had to search high and low for items was when I made a level 9 dueling Assassin, and when I made a pre-1.10 Necro summoner that got 80+ minions. And the only reason I cared about those items was because I wanted to do something completely unconventional.

Diablo 3 is a game that rushes you into Inferno as fast as possible, and then makes you feel bad every time you don't see an ilvl63 with godly stats.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Dfgj
Profile Joined May 2008
Singapore5922 Posts
July 21 2012 03:54 GMT
#42
On July 21 2012 11:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2012 09:48 freetgy wrote:
was all the same in d2, though people don't want to realise this

Bullshit. Remember needing Enigma to beat Hell? Windforce to do manageable damage? SoJ to beat Diablo?

You don't need perfect gear to beat Inferno either.

You did, however, need good gear to do Uber Tristram, which is a better comparison to Inferno anyway.
Serpico
Profile Joined May 2010
4285 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 04:09:35
July 21 2012 04:08 GMT
#43
On July 21 2012 11:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2012 09:48 freetgy wrote:
was all the same in d2, though people don't want to realise this

Bullshit. Remember needing Enigma to beat Hell? Windforce to do manageable damage? SoJ to beat Diablo?

I never found a High Rune. I never found a Windforce. I never made an Enigma. And I never gave a damn, because I could do everything I ever wanted to do without caring about having the best of the best.

The only time I ever had to search high and low for items was when I made a level 9 dueling Assassin, and when I made a pre-1.10 Necro summoner that got 80+ minions. And the only reason I cared about those items was because I wanted to do something completely unconventional.

Diablo 3 is a game that rushes you into Inferno as fast as possible, and then makes you feel bad every time you don't see an ilvl63 with godly stats.

And now you're just misrepresenting the game. You needed none of that. Maybe you mean ubers. Diablo 3 has too much grinding and too little gratification in the end, the items are also boring and the affixes are as well. They screwed up the items and finding them which were two of the most important parts of the game.
gosublade
Profile Joined May 2011
632 Posts
July 21 2012 04:24 GMT
#44
this game is nothing like d2.. and... 4 max players per game.. are you FUCKING KIDDING ME???
Not even death can save you from me.
Denzil
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom4193 Posts
July 21 2012 05:16 GMT
#45
On July 21 2012 13:24 gosublade wrote:
this game is nothing like d2.. and... 4 max players per game.. are you FUCKING KIDDING ME???


And Starcraft 2 is nothing like Brood War, 5 minerals per trip and 6 workers wtf, look beyond that

but seriously I feel like the game is missing an Uber Trist / Uber Diablo extension for late game content, I feel that having some sort of specialised item for the end game could bring either some more excitment or more depth to Inferno.

I remember in Diablo 2 first discovering what a Torch was and I was blown away and then did everything I could to farm keys and so on then I discovered Annis and uber diablo and it felt like another world. Maybe that was because I didn't understand the concepts I do now but eh wouldn't hurt.
Anna: So Sen how will you prepare for your revenge v MC? Sen: With a smile.
Phenny
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1435 Posts
July 21 2012 06:22 GMT
#46
Sounds good if you want to have shitty gear forever and corpsezerg even harder than those that do use the AH.
Andre
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Slovenia3516 Posts
July 21 2012 07:20 GMT
#47
I hate AH as well for the reasons stated in the OP, a lot of people knew this would happen.

But what's the alternative? Black market, which I'm currently thinking might be better. A small percentage of people would just abuse that and the majority would I guess enjoy the game, though that's not how entirely it happend in D2 in the later years.
You must gather your party before venturing forth.
Vazze
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden279 Posts
July 21 2012 07:23 GMT
#48
On July 21 2012 11:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2012 09:48 freetgy wrote:
was all the same in d2, though people don't want to realise this

Bullshit. Remember needing Enigma to beat Hell? Windforce to do manageable damage? SoJ to beat Diablo?

I never found a High Rune. I never found a Windforce. I never made an Enigma. And I never gave a damn, because I could do everything I ever wanted to do without caring about having the best of the best.

The only time I ever had to search high and low for items was when I made a level 9 dueling Assassin, and when I made a pre-1.10 Necro summoner that got 80+ minions. And the only reason I cared about those items was because I wanted to do something completely unconventional.

Diablo 3 is a game that rushes you into Inferno as fast as possible, and then makes you feel bad every time you don't see an ilvl63 with godly stats.


Well, when it comes to end game in D2, it's the same as D3 AH. If you want to compete in d2 pvp you NEED totally maxed gear, something realistically obtainable by trading (d2jsp). Although for a casual to kill Baal in hell, it's manageable without the assist of trading (I'm playing hardcore with a friend right now, Necro+Barb, lvl 80 act 2 hell atm).

Trading doesn't have to be completely soulless. Ingame trading in d2 and even trading on jsp can be quite fun, joining trade games, browsing items and arguing about prices. The D3 AH removes the social aspect of trading which I don't like.
Jung Myung Hoon and Doh Jae Wook fan!
Elysian
Profile Joined August 2010
United States22 Posts
July 21 2012 09:03 GMT
#49
Interestingly, I think the feeling that the AH devalues the game might be avoided if people use the AH from the very beginning. The disappointment, at least in the way that the OP describes, is from not knowing the true value of what you find in the first place. Players who spent hours grinding for items without ever using the AH and then seeing it for the first time are obviously going to feel like they wasted a lot of time and feel like they've been cheated.
Confuse
Profile Joined October 2009
2238 Posts
July 21 2012 09:30 GMT
#50
A seriously insightful article and a great read. Actually it's inspired me to try a run without AH or any of my current gear and see how it goes. Maybe D3 can be fun again
If we fear what we do not understand, then why is ignorance bliss?
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
July 21 2012 09:46 GMT
#51
it's more like the existence of inferno and the huge drop gap makes the rest of the game pointless
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
matiK23
Profile Joined May 2011
United States963 Posts
July 21 2012 10:39 GMT
#52
do people even buy from the AH anymore?
Without a paddle up shit creek.
Luiwtf
Profile Joined January 2011
England217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 12:07:37
July 21 2012 11:52 GMT
#53
On July 21 2012 06:54 fishjie wrote:
impossible to progress in the game without AH so not an option.

i was struggling in NIGHTMARE difficulty on my barb and was wondering wtf why am i sucking so badly, because i roflstomped NM in d2. then i just started buying AR gear on the auction, and then from that point i was a god. until i hit inferno. at that point if you dont use AH you might as well just uninstall.


Lol?! Nightmare, especially as a barb, is faceroll. I haven't bought items on any of my characters (and didn't have to farm for items pre Inferno Act 1) and have a 60 Barb/Monk/Wizard. The barb and monk just saved Adria on Inferno, neither of which had problems, so finishing Act 2 shouldn't be a problem for them, the wiz is about to start Act 2 Inferno, and I can't see it being a problem either.

The main problem I have with the AH is that it gives every single item, no matter how bad (since gold is sellable), a real money value. Sure, in other games, even D2, you can sell stuff out of game, but it's no where near as secure (dodgy hex editing bid price excluded) or (most importantly for me) convenient, there's no way I'd trust someone to not reverse a PayPal charge on an item I would have otherwise used, or trust the D3 trading window, and selling stuff on D2JSP is just no where near convenient enough for someone as lazy as me to bother doing, considering the amount of low price items that you get that are worth selling, but only because it takes a few seconds on the AH, something that isn't true when you have to make thread/add buyer/wait for them to be online/meet ingame etc for every single item.

This means that when I get an upgrade I find myself checking to see how much it's worth, to see if I'm willing to "lose" or "spend" that much money on the item to use it (obviously I'm not spending my own money directly, but it's money I'd otherwise have if I didn't use the item and sold it on the AH, either directly or by selling for gold and selling the gold). As someone that doesn't think ANY item in a game is worth real money, this either forces me to quit a game that I otherwise enjoy, or put up with it which leads to me enjoying the game less than I would if there was no AH at all .

I still don't know what I'm going to do if I find an awesome weapon, I have 3 characters that'd all love a 1k DPS 1H'er, but do I really want to "spend" that much RL money for it?

On July 21 2012 06:31 unkkz wrote:
Man up and play hardcore, problem solved


I did do this for a bit, got a Barb to level 60 (again, I never bought items on the AH on this character), but I died on Hell Act 4 due to rubberbanding back into Arcane/Poison . If it wasn't for the online aspect of D3 I'd only play Hardcore, but the fact that you can lose a character to lag just ruins the game for me even more than the AH does .
lcms
Profile Joined September 2011
Netherlands27 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 12:14:18
July 21 2012 12:09 GMT
#54
It's just how the game works kind of I guess. You go to work (gold farming), buy food (potions, repairs) and buy new gear (ah) to do your work even better and also become a little more epic. It only takes so many many hours to really be any good in inferno, so it's not too interestingly quickly for casuals imho.

Pvp could be a good show-off of epicness, which is currently missing imho.

What I liked about d2 and am missing in d3 a bit I think at the moment is that the economy was kind of stabilized in d2. In d3 it still seems quite random to me. Prices are still getting lower and lower and the rare time if have a good roll, there is still no real value to it, just like the OP says, it's all dependent on what the buyer pays for it. In d2 you had measures of [X] High runes or [X] Pgems, which imho kind of gave much more definitite values to items you found.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6255 Posts
July 21 2012 12:18 GMT
#55
Tbh, I don't understand the gripes about AH - you could do everything the AH did in D2 but it was very inefficient - trading forums, etc. The AH simply made everything efficient so that standard players can participate in it.
Phenny
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1435 Posts
July 21 2012 12:26 GMT
#56
On July 21 2012 21:18 Azzur wrote:
Tbh, I don't understand the gripes about AH - you could do everything the AH did in D2 but it was very inefficient - trading forums, etc. The AH simply made everything efficient so that standard players can participate in it.


Yep, trading in D2 was more hassle than it was worth in most cases.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 13:02:54
July 21 2012 13:02 GMT
#57
--- Nuked ---
Frozenhelfire
Profile Joined May 2010
United States420 Posts
July 21 2012 13:13 GMT
#58
I would like to preface this by saying that Diablo 3 was the first of the Diablo series of games that I have played so my opinion is devoid of nostalgia and any expectations for the game due to experience with its predecessors.

I strongly disagree with this article. Diablo 3 wasn’t fun because normal through hell seemed like a very long tutorial, inferno wasn’t challenging, and the game interface was terrible.

Firstly, I would like to start with normal through hell. I’ll admit I had fun playing normal difficulty. The story was new to me, and due to the easy gameplay I could quickly progress through the story. Although there were some very questionable parts of the story I still enjoyed it overall. However, this all went downhill for me. In the same way I don’t enjoy watching a movie more than once I didn’t enjoy playing through the story in nightmare and hell. The game wasn’t engaging for me because the difficulty was too low and I could practically say the dialogues for the characters if I wasn’t skipping the dialogues. At this point the game seemed like a very slow and boring tutorial for the challenge I was hoping to face in inferno difficulty.

I was excited when I finally killed Diablo on hell and “earned” my ticket to inferno. However, I was quickly disappointed with inferno. It wasn’t really more difficult than hell. The same overall strategy of “run and gun” still applied. I was still fighting the same monsters I was in the three previous difficulties. What really changed for me in inferno was more that I had to run and gun more seamlessly because if I messed up by standing still for a little bit here or there or messed up in some other subtle way the monsters would close the gap faster because of their increased movespeed. If I got hit I was dead. Yep. That was it. Inferno turned out to be less engaging than normal because the strategy was stale and the overall design of inferno made the random monster packs easier than the bosses.

Another thing that made inferno stale and monotonous was the poor affix design. I felt like Blizzard was trying to make the game both interesting and challenging through the affixes and their possible combinations. Increasing the number of affixes with difficulty was supposed to provide more dynamic monsters and require the player to develop and utilize unique strategies to defeat many of the combinations. Unfortunately Blizzard failed to implement affixes in this way and instead they became boring and sometimes too much to handle regardless of strategy. Many affixes overlapped completely. “Plagued” and “Molten” come to mind. However, the approach to overcoming those two are also very similar to “Mortar”. If you’re standing in one spot too long you will die. The best direction to move is often back towards the beginning of the dungeon because it is clear and in the opposite direction of the monsters. Unfortunately, this also worked for just about all affixes. “Arcane Enchanted” could have been cool, but I never had to deal with it because it dropped too close to the mobs and it was slow to take effect. Basically if I was close enough to get hit by it I would probably already be dead for some other reason. All the increased affix count did was increase the chance for bullshit combinations that I couldn’t beat. Anything with “Extra Health” and “Reflects Damage” were mobs I could not kill regardless of the other two affixes. Because of this I either had to try and sneak around them, move them to a corner, or leave/resume the game to get a new set of monsters.

Lastly, the interface was horrible. Brood War and Warcraft III were big hits in my teen years. Why? Blizzard gave you a good game and let you play it the way in which you wanted to play it. There were chat channels for just about any game type where you could meet new people, and the custom game list added onto this. Didn’t like the standard melee maps? That’s fine, someone else didn’t like them and they made these better melee maps (for the Korean tournaments). There are a whole bunch of people that play them. If you like those maps you can host them too and connect with others. Don’t like those? Neither did some other people. Here’s a community that play Zero Clutter or BGH or Fastest Map Possible, or if that isn’t your thing here is the UMS tab with a whole slew of different game types. This sort of thing provided an environment where you could naturally make friends and experience new content (or make it yourself if you want because everyone has a map editor that comes with the game). I felt like Diablo 3 was missing this. I tried the public game system, but it was atrocious. I was thrown in a game with random people. I couldn’t add filters with a game name, or the title I under which I hosted the game. I couldn’t have a brief chat in the lobby before starting the game to see if I would want to play with them. Nothing. The in game interface also seemed to downplay the social aspects which made me want to play solo even more. The game, much like SC2 (probably shouldn’t mention this), seems to discourage making friends a lot more than Blizzard’s older games.

Without the auction house I wouldn’t have played through and beaten inferno. When I hit level cap I dropped about 800k on a new set of gear. It had about 25k damage per second in the character sheet, and that is what I beat the entire game with including Diablo. Had it not been for the auction house I wouldn’t have subjected myself to the already boring and stale gameplay in hell or act 1 inferno to get gear equal or better than what I bought from the auction house.
polar bears are fluffy
screamingpalm
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1527 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 15:07:44
July 21 2012 15:04 GMT
#59
Totally agree with the article. What I don't understand is how they couldn't forsee this like so many fans could. I fucking hate the AH with a passion. If this was a single player game only, I wouldn't care less what others do, but it really does affect the rest of us that don't use it and don't plan to.

They couldn't come up with anything more creative than a loot grind? They changed or omitted so many other features that made Diablo, Diablo... why couldn't they forsee this and make this one less gear dependent? After doing this for more than a decade, I'm a little tired of it lol. Oh well, my problem I guess.

Edit: Oh yeah... Inferno is NOT impossible without the AH. I made it up to Ghom with only gear I found. The reason I stopped playing is that I don't like feeling forced to use specific skills to get past him (Overpower). That's just lame.
MMT University is coming! http://www.mmtuniversity.org/
Phenny
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1435 Posts
July 21 2012 15:08 GMT
#60
Yeh but better than black market dodgy ripoff scam sites doing it (imo).
screamingpalm
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1527 Posts
July 21 2012 15:29 GMT
#61
On July 22 2012 00:08 Phenny wrote:
Yeh but better than black market dodgy ripoff scam sites doing it (imo).


Make loot account bound.
MMT University is coming! http://www.mmtuniversity.org/
Roachu
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden692 Posts
July 21 2012 15:30 GMT
#62
My second character (a monk) just reached lvl 60 and having a bank in the beginning does make the game insanely easy, even easier than it was before. Its really easy to become overpowered in this game (if you have the bank that is) because the ways to construct a powerful character are very limited. You pretty much stack either crit chance/dmg or life-on-hit. I didn't die until half through Hell and thats mostly because I become incredibly "lazy" while playing this game. I can be midway through a elite fight and notice I'm bathing in desecration and be too lazy to move. Not to mention 9 out of 10 elite stat configurations are super easy to deal with, the rest instakills you (arcane sentry scissor anyone?).
I still think the game is fun to play, I can get the same "I'll play a few games"-urge competitive Starcraft players feel but its more "I'll run act 2 a little bit". This is the kind of game you have to be creative and willing to accept challenges in order to be fun in the long run. Most obvious choice is playing hardcore though on bnet lag that mostly seems like masochism. Second most obvious is achievement-whoring. Otherwise you could try a "no rares" playthrough, restricting powerful skills and so on.
I've seen a ton of people complain and say things like "I bought on release, played 50 hours straight and got bored. fucking failure blizzard sucks". I don't understand that logic. People ground Diablo 2 for YEARS and when Blizzard releases an HD remake (which is EXACTLY what D3 is) people are surprised they won't get a few more years out of it? Stop putting impossible expectations on a game that just rehashes old stuff.
Don't be asshats
lcms
Profile Joined September 2011
Netherlands27 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 15:33:33
July 21 2012 15:32 GMT
#63
On July 22 2012 00:29 screamingpalm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2012 00:08 Phenny wrote:
Yeh but better than black market dodgy ripoff scam sites doing it (imo).


Make loot account bound.


Might be interesting if only uniques and sets were sellable and magic and rare wasn't. Much fewer item overflow in AH and people have to use the legendaries if they can't find better rares. Also makes it actually enjoyable to find uniques/legendaries.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
July 21 2012 21:19 GMT
#64
On July 21 2012 13:08 Serpico wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2012 11:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On July 21 2012 09:48 freetgy wrote:
was all the same in d2, though people don't want to realise this

Bullshit. Remember needing Enigma to beat Hell? Windforce to do manageable damage? SoJ to beat Diablo?

I never found a High Rune. I never found a Windforce. I never made an Enigma. And I never gave a damn, because I could do everything I ever wanted to do without caring about having the best of the best.

The only time I ever had to search high and low for items was when I made a level 9 dueling Assassin, and when I made a pre-1.10 Necro summoner that got 80+ minions. And the only reason I cared about those items was because I wanted to do something completely unconventional.

Diablo 3 is a game that rushes you into Inferno as fast as possible, and then makes you feel bad every time you don't see an ilvl63 with godly stats.

And now you're just misrepresenting the game. You needed none of that. Maybe you mean ubers. Diablo 3 has too much grinding and too little gratification in the end, the items are also boring and the affixes are as well. They screwed up the items and finding them which were two of the most important parts of the game.

I think you missed the entire point of my post. Those questions were entirely rhetorical, as the second paragraph should obviously show.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Jisall
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2054 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 21:49:00
July 21 2012 21:48 GMT
#65
Diablo 2 had HR's instead of gold as currency.

My only suggestion if buffing the character limit from 4 to 8 or whatever it was in D2, more people in a game is more fun.

Edit: Example: Nice HoZ, how much was it? 5 HR's.
Monk: Because being a badass is more fun then playing a dude wearing a scarf.. ... Ite fuck it, Witch Doctor cuz I like killing stuff in a timely mannor.
Moochlol
Profile Joined August 2010
United States456 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 23:22:56
July 21 2012 23:22 GMT
#66
TBH, the gameplay is really fun, however I cannot play a game this unpolished in conjunction with the current AH system, I'm gonna try Torchlight 2, cant go wrong with Matt Uleman as your composer!
blaaaaaarghhhhh
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19573 Posts
July 22 2012 00:48 GMT
#67
On July 22 2012 06:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2012 13:08 Serpico wrote:
On July 21 2012 11:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On July 21 2012 09:48 freetgy wrote:
was all the same in d2, though people don't want to realise this

Bullshit. Remember needing Enigma to beat Hell? Windforce to do manageable damage? SoJ to beat Diablo?

I never found a High Rune. I never found a Windforce. I never made an Enigma. And I never gave a damn, because I could do everything I ever wanted to do without caring about having the best of the best.

The only time I ever had to search high and low for items was when I made a level 9 dueling Assassin, and when I made a pre-1.10 Necro summoner that got 80+ minions. And the only reason I cared about those items was because I wanted to do something completely unconventional.

Diablo 3 is a game that rushes you into Inferno as fast as possible, and then makes you feel bad every time you don't see an ilvl63 with godly stats.

And now you're just misrepresenting the game. You needed none of that. Maybe you mean ubers. Diablo 3 has too much grinding and too little gratification in the end, the items are also boring and the affixes are as well. They screwed up the items and finding them which were two of the most important parts of the game.

I think you missed the entire point of my post. Those questions were entirely rhetorical, as the second paragraph should obviously show.


Indeed.

Freeeeeeedom
caradoc
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada3022 Posts
July 22 2012 00:51 GMT
#68
Nice article. succinct, to the point, and absolutely true.
Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea...
unkkz
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Norway2196 Posts
July 22 2012 23:31 GMT
#69
On July 21 2012 08:32 Dfgj wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2012 06:31 unkkz wrote:
Man up and play hardcore, problem solved

What do you think happens when you get to Inferno?

You'll spend 2x as much time on the AH because you want to overgear before doing anything.


Uhm no, i've been in inferno forever and you check the slots you need every few hours or so, takes 5 minutes tops. HC AH doesn't have 150 70 all res, 100+ dex 60+ vit shoulders etc since the economy is somewhat in check due to people dying.
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-23 00:24:18
July 23 2012 00:16 GMT
#70
My friend has a fairly good point on this:
In D2 you find an item and you build a character around it
"Omg I found TGod let me build a spear amazon!"

In D3 you... well... use Auction house
"God damn let me salvage more mats to sell to find what I need"
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
July 23 2012 00:23 GMT
#71
The problem with AH as I see it is more that the knowledge of some godly items in existence. In D2 you kind-of know what the best of the best item is, and with the complicated way of calculating damage and what not it was hard to tell.
In D3 we are not so different from everyday woman looking at glamour magazines and realizing how really incredibly ugly we really are because ... well, frankly I'm wearing shit items so
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
Roachu
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden692 Posts
July 23 2012 00:55 GMT
#72
I can tell from the old D2 players here that you didn't play that game because the game itself was fun. You played the game because the loot system was better and items felt more precious. "I found X, let me play Y" doesn't make playing Y fun, it makes playing Y meaningful. D3 simply lacks meaning and motivation beyond beating inferno, or even just reaching lvl 60. When you reach lvl 60 you get a feeling of completion and that just shows how unpolished the game is.

Now my experience from D2 is playing it a shit ton completely offline (that is no patches, only the expansion) when I was a kid so if you think I'm wrong then fine.I was a real kid when playing it because I didn't understand anything really about it. I judged the power of skills in how fast they killed enemies when I got them; for example I thought Paladin was crap because of the auras and I still don't know what Attack Rating does in the game. I reached lvl ~45 with a Sorceress whom I'd spent every skill point in Lightning Nova and when that skill couldn't carry me I got stuck.
Don't be asshats
Iranon
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States983 Posts
July 23 2012 01:10 GMT
#73
On July 23 2012 09:55 Roachu wrote:
I can tell from the old D2 players here that you didn't play that game because the game itself was fun. You played the game because the loot system was better and items felt more precious. "I found X, let me play Y" doesn't make playing Y fun, it makes playing Y meaningful. D3 simply lacks meaning and motivation beyond beating inferno, or even just reaching lvl 60. When you reach lvl 60 you get a feeling of completion and that just shows how unpolished the game is.

Now my experience from D2 is playing it a shit ton completely offline (that is no patches, only the expansion) when I was a kid so if you think I'm wrong then fine.I was a real kid when playing it because I didn't understand anything really about it. I judged the power of skills in how fast they killed enemies when I got them; for example I thought Paladin was crap because of the auras and I still don't know what Attack Rating does in the game. I reached lvl ~45 with a Sorceress whom I'd spent every skill point in Lightning Nova and when that skill couldn't carry me I got stuck.


I agree with your first paragraph, most of the fun of D2 was in the items. It was always "picked up a phoenix and a dream in trades because items with auras are awesome, time to make an auradin", not "auradins are awesome, time to go trade for items with auras on them".
Perscienter
Profile Joined June 2010
957 Posts
July 23 2012 07:18 GMT
#74
I've always thought, that charms were very stupid and especially the outer-class-skills, which could be acquired.
TheToaster
Profile Joined August 2011
United States280 Posts
July 23 2012 07:52 GMT
#75
I honestly can't see playing the game without using the Auction House. What's the point of gold if I'm not going to spend it on trading? Wouldn't it just accumulate indefinitely and serve no purpose?

In my opinion, it's not really the Auction House that ruins the game, but moreso how Blizzard decided to handle drop rates and the difficulty of Inferno mode. I think they should have originally made the difficulty curve of Inferno less severe between different acts, so basically Act 2 doesn't shit in your face even though you have Act 1 completely on farm mode. Under those circumstances, they could reduce the drop rates on level 62 or 63 items so they actually have some sort of value in the player trading economy.

I guess one possibility for ignoring the AH is to buy crafting material and such on the Auction House, and just not gear upgrades. But then you are basically just trading items in a different kind of sense. Crafting material = crafted items, so whatever you crafted can essentially be considered as bought from the Auction House.
Oh, get a job? Just get a job? Why don't I strap on my job helmet, squeeze down into a job cannon, and fire off into job land, where jobs grow on jobbies!
unkkz
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Norway2196 Posts
July 23 2012 08:19 GMT
#76
On July 23 2012 16:52 TheToaster wrote:
I honestly can't see playing the game without using the Auction House. What's the point of gold if I'm not going to spend it on trading? Wouldn't it just accumulate indefinitely and serve no purpose?

In my opinion, it's not really the Auction House that ruins the game, but moreso how Blizzard decided to handle drop rates and the difficulty of Inferno mode. I think they should have originally made the difficulty curve of Inferno less severe between different acts, so basically Act 2 doesn't shit in your face even though you have Act 1 completely on farm mode. Under those circumstances, they could reduce the drop rates on level 62 or 63 items so they actually have some sort of value in the player trading economy.

I guess one possibility for ignoring the AH is to buy crafting material and such on the Auction House, and just not gear upgrades. But then you are basically just trading items in a different kind of sense. Crafting material = crafted items, so whatever you crafted can essentially be considered as bought from the Auction House.


Act 2 doesnt completely shit in your face anymore if you have act 1 on faceroll status, just need to gear properly so you can actually take a hit or two. It takes quite a bit of act 1 farming however which requires u to simply get lucky.

To me AH only helps, i hated trade chat spam really or sitting in a game with my SS waiting for someone with a shako, and then idiots show up with no shako and try to haggle me for a deal.

The problem with softcore is that there are no ladder resets. There is no way to get items out of the economy. Just look at the HC AH and compare it to SC, it's working very well since it has an item dump in people dying.

Other then this the biggest fail to me, since im an item whore, is the low droprate of legendaries and set items coupled with the fact that getting a decent roll on one in D3 is like getting a perfect roll in D2. And to top it of like half of them are terrible items. Like there's a legendary 1hand crossbow(Izzycob something) that can have at its maximum dps, half the dps of a decent rare at its level. How did they think there? Why would anyone ever want that weapon? The legendaries and sets are boring, random and bad. This makes farming way less fun then it was in D2 because there were so many good items you could hope for on top of getting a decent rare. Now there's only a few good legendaries, and even if you beat the astronomical odds of getting one they can still roll strenght dex or dex int or some crap for their stats.
Startyr
Profile Joined November 2011
Scotland188 Posts
July 23 2012 11:11 GMT
#77
Diablo 3 seems to be a half hearted attempt at an always online game which has a max level and an 'end game'. Where 1-60 involves just buying items every few levels, essentially rushing to 60 to get into inferno and trying to make enough gold to buy the items you need. The auction house itself is limited and simplistic and takes away from the gameplay. It might as well allow buying/selling characters. Then you can go straight to farming items/gold in inferno to first make back what you spent on the character and then to try and make a profit. Which does not sound like an actual game to play for fun. In fact you end up spending money to essentially skip playing the game.

Diablo 2 was all about levelling, partly due to limited options to respec, mostly due to ladder reset. Where you spend time having fun developing a character.

I would like to point to this thread
http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?683461-Sept-Sept-Finished-amp-Summary

The basic idea was to create 7 hardcore characters of each class each with a different build. that is 49 character each with a different build.

So it is possible of doing something similar, perhaps only using what you can find or craft. Though of course just one of each class, and there are a lack of interesting items to base a build around and a general lack of information to try and maximise a character beyond seeing a higher number and assuming that it is better. Trying to not use the auction house is similar to pretending softcore is hardcore by saying that you will delete the character if you die and there is always that nagging feeling of just buying much better gear easily.
Monkeyballs25
Profile Joined October 2010
531 Posts
July 23 2012 19:44 GMT
#78
I think the AH does devalue the leveling experience a lot. Because low level gear is now so easy to get, anything you actually find is technically worthless. So I've found it a lot more enjoyable to just gear up through drops, crafting and swapping gear with my friend, and ignore the AH completely.
Medrea
Profile Joined May 2011
10003 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-23 19:59:06
July 23 2012 19:52 GMT
#79
All I ever did in D2 was trade items for money.

All I ever do in D3 is trade items for money.

I dont understand the complaints. its literally the exact same experience -.-

If I never visited the AH. I wouldn't have my dual 7970's or my 120hz monitor >.>
twitch.tv/medrea
Charger
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2405 Posts
July 23 2012 20:00 GMT
#80
On July 24 2012 04:52 Medrea wrote:
All I ever did in D2 was trade items for money.

All I ever do in D3 is trade items for money.

I dont understand the complaints. its literally the exact same experience -.-


Only in D2 you had to sit in a trade window for hours. :p

I can sympathize somewhat with people who don't want to use the AH but are basically forced to but really you need to get over the fact that the AH is there. People would still be trading/buying/selling items via in game chat or 3rd party sites just like D2. It was still a giant crapshoot trying to farm items for your lvl/char that were upgrades in D2. All the AH does is ease the process of trading in Diablo, something it was severely lacking.
It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback.
Medrea
Profile Joined May 2011
10003 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-23 20:08:14
July 23 2012 20:07 GMT
#81
Right. D2 was all about item trade. D3 is all about item trade. Items for money, and sometimes other items.

Well for me. I didnt PvP in D2 at all really. I did however take the people who did do PvP for a ride as far as money was concerned. People will pay so much money for perfect items that grant an almost immeasurably small advantage over the guy who spent 90 times less on his stuff.

But now people want items to be soulbound. Like it really matters? It didn't matter in WoW we sold a ton of BoP's and shit in WoW.
twitch.tv/medrea
Treehead
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
999 Posts
July 23 2012 21:20 GMT
#82
On July 24 2012 05:07 Medrea wrote:
But now people want items to be soulbound. Like it really matters? It didn't matter in WoW we sold a ton of BoP's and shit in WoW.


Undoubtedly you'll be able to bring people into inferno and let them hang around until something drops - however, BoP in a game like wow (where everyone can pick up the same limited quantity of loot) and BoP in a game like D3 (where everyone sees different loot) is very different.
Medrea
Profile Joined May 2011
10003 Posts
July 23 2012 21:24 GMT
#83
Halved or quartered effectiveness only means I charge 2 to 4 times more.
twitch.tv/medrea
rd
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2586 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-24 21:11:48
July 24 2012 21:09 GMT
#84
On July 21 2012 09:48 freetgy wrote:
was all the same in d2, though people don't want to realise this


I don't even see the point of saying this. You can equate everything in D2 and D3 and but it doesn't change the fact D3 feels way different and got really boring really fast. I don't know how a game that could bring together so many of my friends cause every single one of them to quit within months.

It's fairly difficult to explain in words why trading felt more meaningful in d2 than the AH does in D3. I can go back and enjoy D2 whenever I want even though I'm essentially going through the same process every time to gear a character. I quit D3 a few months in and I have no desire to ever go back. I went on the AH to check the prices for the gear I ultimately wanted to be godlike in D3 and tried to farm the gold for them. It was basically just me logging on every day to check the items I sold in the AH and watching my gold slowly accumulate. Then I got bored and quit.

Combined with the difficulty of finding items that have an obscure value to be determined by the AH. Nothing is really that amazing. Items in D2 were OP and would make or break different builds. In D3 its just a little more damage with the same amount of kiting. Nothing in your play style changes, the monsters just die a little faster and you run a little less.
nRoot
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany928 Posts
July 24 2012 22:01 GMT
#85
To me it was obvious where D3 softcore was heading when I read about the AH in the first place, what else did people expect really?

In my first "playthrough" I played a monk solo (95% of the time, my friends where way ahead in level after 3 days) and selffound because thats the way I knew Diablo. I only played the original one when it first came out on PC, my friend played D2 ALOT but I never really cared because it seemed boring just running around looking for loot ...
Well, it was fun until Act 4 Hell, than it became just boring. I couldn't die (only pay 5k in repairs *yawn*) but the enemys took FOREVER to go down (i was running around with some 200dps mainhand or something), it was just boring as fuck and nothing new.

So I just ran through the last 2 levels of Act 4 without fighting (easier than expected) and Diablo was as easy as ever ...

Next stop was Inferno, but I allready stoped caring about progressing because I knew what I had to do: go to the AH, buy a nice weapon and farm whatever you can to buy more stuff on the AH ... repeat ... boring

I thought about playing a DH SC for some new experience but figured it would turn out the same sooner or later and dropped it.

I'm now playing HC solo selffound and having more fun than during my whole SC run. I tried out the other characters too, if somehow I can get them all to Level 60 on HC I'll probably stop playing this game for good.

Bottom line, I think there is a fun game in D3, but it's certainly not that mindless farming for no reason on Inferno SC that a lot of people seem to do (unless that is what you came for)
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
July 24 2012 22:08 GMT
#86
On July 24 2012 04:52 Medrea wrote:
All I ever did in D2 was trade items for money.

All I ever do in D3 is trade items for money.

I dont understand the complaints. its literally the exact same experience -.-

If I never visited the AH. I wouldn't have my dual 7970's or my 120hz monitor >.>

D2 was trade for items you want, and go back to playing when you give up.

D3 is pay for items you need, and quit the game when inflation makes them too expensive to get.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Medrea
Profile Joined May 2011
10003 Posts
July 25 2012 00:37 GMT
#87
You can get what you need to clear the game with the starting capital leveling to 60 provides though. Just gold. no need to pay with money.
twitch.tv/medrea
WeeKeong
Profile Joined October 2010
United States282 Posts
July 26 2012 07:00 GMT
#88
On July 25 2012 07:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2012 04:52 Medrea wrote:
All I ever did in D2 was trade items for money.

All I ever do in D3 is trade items for money.

I dont understand the complaints. its literally the exact same experience -.-

If I never visited the AH. I wouldn't have my dual 7970's or my 120hz monitor >.>

D2 was trade for items you want, and go back to playing when you give up.

D3 is pay for items you need, and quit the game when inflation makes them too expensive to get.

But deflation is making items easy to get, no idea what ur saying. Crafting and items not leaving the economy makes items cheaper for newer players. On the other hand, for the most godly of godly items, that's a different story but you don't need those to beat the game.
Netsky
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1155 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-27 09:04:16
July 27 2012 09:03 GMT
#89
I played when the game first came out using the AH and found it made everything insanely easy. Sure, finding your own upgrades takes a bit longer, but the AH is basically "cheating" in the sense that you enter the stats you want and just buy the item. There is zero sense of accomplishment because it turns the game into a face roll for next to no effort.

On a slight side note, I tried hardcore, got 2 level 60s into Inferno but died to a disconnect and extended rubber band lag spike (server side of course). It was fun, but I want the death to be only because of my own error, not circumstances that are outside of my control. It takes all the fun out of it and I'm not going back to hardcore for now for that reason.

I've just started playing again on softcore with a clean account (server switch) only using the items that I find myself, no AH or trading, and the game is infinitely more fun.
Phenny
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1435 Posts
July 27 2012 09:31 GMT
#90
On July 26 2012 16:00 WeeKeong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2012 07:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On July 24 2012 04:52 Medrea wrote:
All I ever did in D2 was trade items for money.

All I ever do in D3 is trade items for money.

I dont understand the complaints. its literally the exact same experience -.-

If I never visited the AH. I wouldn't have my dual 7970's or my 120hz monitor >.>

D2 was trade for items you want, and go back to playing when you give up.

D3 is pay for items you need, and quit the game when inflation makes them too expensive to get.

But deflation is making items easy to get, no idea what ur saying. Crafting and items not leaving the economy makes items cheaper for newer players. On the other hand, for the most godly of godly items, that's a different story but you don't need those to beat the game.


This has been VERY evident in the past week, prices falling like crazy and still barely anything selling lol
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
July 30 2012 11:32 GMT
#91
All the auction house does is making the whole bartering, trading, finding items thing etc more efficient. For some people that spoils the fun because everything is simplified but literally without an (RM)AH you have the same things going on..
Using a black market makes you much better than not using one if there is no AH, being in some huge clan also gives huge benefits compared to playing alone if there was no AH. In a game where you search items and quality of items differs for classes the one that can trade more efficiently always gets out ahead, the AH simply leveled the playing field so that everyone can trade very efficiently.

Endgame just sucks because the combat system and creeps are repetetive. The whole item game is boring anyway. RMAH at least provides a way for the hardcore gamers to actually make some money out of it, while those same gamers (and bots) cause a deflation so everyone can get good items. With or without AH the chance you find items yourself that are of real value if you're not a hardcore gamer is always low... It's just like collecting soccer cards, at first you'll find new cards nonstop for your album till the end where you practically find only useless duplicates waiting for the last few you don't have. Yes the experience of finding an upgrade yourself is fun and much rarer now if you used the AH once but you now have the pleasure of a good buy in the AH. Just trading can be lots of fun for people.

wintergt
Profile Joined February 2010
Belgium1335 Posts
July 30 2012 11:36 GMT
#92
On July 27 2012 18:03 Netsky wrote:
I've just started playing again on softcore with a clean account (server switch) only using the items that I find myself, no AH or trading, and the game is infinitely more fun.

I don't think you can get past act 2 inferno this way though.
here i am
Derrida
Profile Joined March 2011
2885 Posts
July 30 2012 11:53 GMT
#93
I actually play the game because I enjoy the AH, so I disagree.
#1 Grubby Fan.
daemir
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland8662 Posts
July 30 2012 12:18 GMT
#94
On July 30 2012 20:53 Derrida wrote:
I actually play the game because I enjoy the AH, so I disagree.


At one point it felt I did this for WoW, logging in often for short amounts of time to check my auctions and..

well okay let's be truthful, I logged in on my bank alt periodically to press a button in the modded AH window so my addons could do the trading based on parameters I set, then sit at the post box for 7 minutes receiving mail (50 items per minute was the refresh rate).

And I made hundreds of thousands. Got bored, quit the game. Gold still sitting on the inactive account. Guildie was far more into that stuff than I was, he was up to millions in gold.


D3 died out pretty damn fast for me, a really big factor was that grouping up with friends was disadvantageus, as crazy as that sounds.
Derrida
Profile Joined March 2011
2885 Posts
July 30 2012 12:31 GMT
#95
On July 30 2012 21:18 daemir wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 30 2012 20:53 Derrida wrote:
I actually play the game because I enjoy the AH, so I disagree.


At one point it felt I did this for WoW, logging in often for short amounts of time to check my auctions and..

well okay let's be truthful, I logged in on my bank alt periodically to press a button in the modded AH window so my addons could do the trading based on parameters I set, then sit at the post box for 7 minutes receiving mail (50 items per minute was the refresh rate).

And I made hundreds of thousands. Got bored, quit the game. Gold still sitting on the inactive account. Guildie was far more into that stuff than I was, he was up to millions in gold.


D3 died out pretty damn fast for me, a really big factor was that grouping up with friends was disadvantageus, as crazy as that sounds.


Well, you can turn those into $$ in D3 far easier than you could in WoW
#1 Grubby Fan.
Burrfoot
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States1176 Posts
July 30 2012 12:36 GMT
#96
I've broke the $1k mark on the RMAH with enough stored up in Blizz Balance to buy the next few expansions. God forbid I ever get the urge to play WoW again. Supposedly they working on allowing people to use balance on subscriptions.

Only reason I play now is to level all classes to 60 and do a farming run or two.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Davlok-1847/career
Ownos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2147 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-04 20:42:19
August 04 2012 20:39 GMT
#97
Some people's memories age like a fine wine. Rose tinted whine.

Are you one of the few people who 'bartered' in Diablo 2 in your own little bubble? And thought that's how everyone did it? There was never much trading. 40 SOJs says I'm right and my memory clear. The AH is fine.

This article only has 2 good points in that the game doesn't feel that satisfying (at inferno). And that is partly because the game took TOO MUCH from the past and didn't design for modern tastes. All gear can be acquired by just buying it. WoW is so addicting is because all the best gear was a badge of accomplishment and can only be acquired by completing certain challenges. And these challenges in themselves was satisfying and the gear was merely evidence of having done it (as well as a ticket to the next tier of raid dungeon). Every pack is just a bag of HP that has varying levels of "gonna fuck you up, son". In WoW, the complexity of these packs are at the level of "tank and spank". There's no satisification. It's what WoW players would call a boring gear check. You can kill the pack or you can't. Yeah it was like that in D2, but they need to up the ante. Maybe certain boss affixes (or affix combos) grant a better drop. Gotta love taking on a next to impossible pack, kill it, and it drops 2 ilvl 50 blues. Maybe bosses would elicit a response from players other than "run away can't kill it" or "face tank with variable amounts of movement (usually too much)".

The other good point is the terribly messed up economy. Only "power-ball, jackpot" items are worth anything and anything below that is at a bargain price. It's funny, I find selling lower level items to sell more consistently. My ilevel 61 gloves sell for less than my level 30 ones. I mostly blame the poor AH interface and NOT the AH itself or the liquidity of the economy. If we had something like WoW's auctioneer than speculators can more easily monitor prices and keep the market in check, instead of this free-for-all mass dumping of items where people are too lazy to check the real price of things and just dump their stuff either at stupid expensive prices or really low. There are a few items that are easily read like any weapon with high dps and LOH is a winner. And the other point being that someone else brought up is the fact that the supply of gold and items continues to rise. Only the 1/1,000,000 items are low in supply, but this will fix itself over time. This is again another flaw of not taking account for modern game design.

In the end, I just like bashing hoards of demons every now and then. So WTF ever lol.
...deeper and deeper into the bowels of El Diablo
mtn
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
729 Posts
August 04 2012 20:52 GMT
#98
On July 27 2012 18:31 Phenny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2012 16:00 WeeKeong wrote:
On July 25 2012 07:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On July 24 2012 04:52 Medrea wrote:
All I ever did in D2 was trade items for money.

All I ever do in D3 is trade items for money.

I dont understand the complaints. its literally the exact same experience -.-

If I never visited the AH. I wouldn't have my dual 7970's or my 120hz monitor >.>

D2 was trade for items you want, and go back to playing when you give up.

D3 is pay for items you need, and quit the game when inflation makes them too expensive to get.

But deflation is making items easy to get, no idea what ur saying. Crafting and items not leaving the economy makes items cheaper for newer players. On the other hand, for the most godly of godly items, that's a different story but you don't need those to beat the game.


This has been VERY evident in the past week, prices falling like crazy and still barely anything selling lol


Not enough players playing, for it to be selling.
Ownos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2147 Posts
August 04 2012 21:02 GMT
#99
On July 25 2012 07:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2012 04:52 Medrea wrote:
All I ever did in D2 was trade items for money.

All I ever do in D3 is trade items for money.

I dont understand the complaints. its literally the exact same experience -.-

If I never visited the AH. I wouldn't have my dual 7970's or my 120hz monitor >.>

D2 was trade for items you want, and go back to playing when you give up.

D3 is pay for items you need, and quit the game when inflation makes them too expensive to get.


D2 had third party AH sites whether you choose to accept that or not.
...deeper and deeper into the bowels of El Diablo
Nisyax
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Netherlands756 Posts
August 04 2012 21:11 GMT
#100
On August 05 2012 06:02 Ownos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2012 07:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On July 24 2012 04:52 Medrea wrote:
All I ever did in D2 was trade items for money.

All I ever do in D3 is trade items for money.

I dont understand the complaints. its literally the exact same experience -.-

If I never visited the AH. I wouldn't have my dual 7970's or my 120hz monitor >.>

D2 was trade for items you want, and go back to playing when you give up.

D3 is pay for items you need, and quit the game when inflation makes them too expensive to get.


D2 had third party AH sites whether you choose to accept that or not.


I think every decent game where it's possible to trade/sell items has this.
baba1
Profile Joined April 2005
Canada355 Posts
August 04 2012 22:45 GMT
#101
I got to act 3 inferno and started farming some stuff... got rich with some lucky drops now my barb is worth like 500M and annihilates the game. I don't play anymore and don't even plan to until there is pvp. There is nothing to do BUT farm gold on the AH and believe me I've done it for a good 2 months and it gets boring really fast.

I played d2 for many years tho and always had a lot of fun. I still play sometimes !
noq uote
Kurr
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada2338 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-05 01:04:33
August 05 2012 01:02 GMT
#102
I more or less agree with the article, however I don't think it would be as huge of a deal if items actually had cool stats/mods and that characters had some permanent choices.

I got bored pretty quickly (2-3 weeks) and one of the main reasons is that I never had to think about anything while playing. Diablo 3 is mindless; Diablo 2 was mindless once you had figured out everything you wanted to do, but making those choices was part of the game for me.

Another problem is that I don't enjoy the world as much as Diablo 2. Act 2,4 and 5 in Diablo 2 were very well made IMO. I don't really have an act that I love in Diablo 3. They're all kind of mediocre in terms of areas. About the same level as act 1 and 3 in Diablo 2.

The whole problem with the AH is real, but I don't think it would matter as much if the gameplay was great.

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