|
I recently saw the Day9 daily on thorzain's TvT build and have been trying it out. In my limited experience so far, it works as advertised vs bio, marine tank and the several other fairly standard Terran options. However, I and others have had problems with some openers
Solved Problems / Questions
-Banshees
1) The build gets a very late starport and so you are left defending with just marines. Unless the banshee player mismicros or leaves the banshees somewhere they shouldn’t be, marines before stim are not great at defending banshee harass. So the banshees do a lot of damage (kill or damage lots of marines) and force a lot of scans if they have cloak.
2) The build gets fairly late siege tanks and late siege tech. Normally this is OK since it uses the mass marines with upgrades early to get a really good position on the map and so you siege up in a great spot even though you don’t have a lot of tanks. But with banshees in play, if the marines leave your base early, you get wrecked. So the marines have to stay put until you have several turrets and maybe a Viking. This means your tanks don’t get a good position and you have nothing to make up for the fact that your siege tanks are fairly late.
Solution: The combat shield marines are OK against banshees as long as turrets are up before the banshees arrive. If you think the opponent might be going banshees scan either when the orbital at natural finishes or partway through the EBay. If you sense they might be going banshees put 1 turret up at each mineral line to give your marines something micro around. If you Know its cloaked banshees for sure, put up a turret at each gas and 1 near your production and he will do no damage and be way behind.
Remaining Questions:
Reapers
-Several people have reported problems with Reapers. In particular, while the rax are getting add-ons there is an interruption in marine production (followed by an explosion in production when the add-ons finish). Builds that save up several reapers and hit all at once during this interval have done a lot of damage (either just 3 reapers or reapers plus hellions)
-Has anyone else been having this problem when working with this build?
-If so what have you been doing to address this? Changing the build a little, reordering things, or audibleing to a totally different plan?
-Other problems people have been having?
-Any general discussion of this build is also welcome as there is not an all-purpose discussion thread for this build and we don’t want too many topics for 1 daily
________
Reference Material
(here's the link to Day9 if interested in the source http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-394-p1-terran-week-thorzain-s-tvt-5862954#disqus_thread )
The best way to get the build is watching day9 at the above link, but below is a quick written summary from my notes:
rax then cc
then another rax
get 2 gases
and then 2 guys on each gas!
start rax #3 when #2 is finished
add on reactor then tech lab
combat shield and another reactor
ebay, factory, 3rd gas, and up to 3 guys on first 2 gasses
starport that swaps for reactor the factory built
and then last step building tech lab on factory and getting siege
Go take a good position with marines and siege up there
Edit 1: updated to include responses on banshees and raise the issue of reaper aggression
|
I actually think this build works well against Banshees. Consider a few things
1. The ebay id down by 630, do a scan with ur new orbital and if u suspect banshees or cloak, like two gas or even factort, just throw down two turrets.
2. Combat shield is early, so you get 3 hits per marine instead of two.
I agree that it is difficult to say, hard stop banshees, without vikings, or an early stim, however, you have to understand, that if the opponent goes banshees you are likely very very far ahead and he has to do CONSIDERABLY damage to catch up. Usually I might get a lot of harass, but then I will roll him later with my macro.
Masters T.
|
Banshees are easy to drive away when marines take 3 hits to kill and I have plenty of minerals for turrets, late stim means I can't kill them but it's ok as long as they stay away from my mineral line.
I've actually been having more trouble against reapers and reaper/hellion/medivac play, the marine count explodes when add-ons are done but before that you're quite vulnerable to something like 3 reaper harassment (most annoying loss, I had 3 marines ready to intercept reapers if they decide to hop in, he runs in and scans my base and then proceeds to 1 shot my 3 marines from the lowground...)
|
1/2 turret in each base will deflect any banshee opening and put you way ahead. If they continue to make banshees after the initial harassment, they just fall back behind even more.
|
On January 15 2012 11:07 LiLSighKoh wrote:
1/2 turret in each base will deflect any banshee opening and put you way ahead. If they continue to make banshees after the initial harassment, they just fall back behind even more.
Do you mean 1/2 or 1-2 turrets? I can't see how 1/2 a turret would be helpful.
|
this build shuts banshees down as long as your turrets are up. I get my ebay earlier than the normal time. around 5:00 jsut so my ups are faster than the terrans if they are doing the same build. then the scan at 6:20 will tell you if banshees are coming. if you see tech lab starport start making turrets, cloaked or not.
|
Combat shield marines completely shut down banshee, especially when you have a engineering bay that quickly
|
I just had to chime in that personally, I love when my opponent goes 1 rax fe tvt. People might say that marines with CS and 1/2 turrets shuts down banshees but its just not true. You can harass all of the open spots that the turrets aren't protecting to force even more turrets, pick off marines/tanks, and delay them putting their expo down all while you expand yourself and getting all of your production out.
|
Turrets mang. One turret at each gas and then a turret near your production is usually good enough to stop any banshee harass.
|
On January 15 2012 14:48 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:
Turrets mang. One turret at each gas and then a turret near your production is usually good enough to stop any banshee harass.
This. Then you just go attack anyway and your opponent has to pull the banshees back to defend. You could even leave a handful of marines home to be extra safe and still completely overrun your opponent if he's going 1/1/1 or 2 port banshees, especially if they researched cloak.
|
On January 15 2012 11:13 hammonjj wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 11:07 LiLSighKoh wrote:
1/2 turret in each base will deflect any banshee opening and put you way ahead. If they continue to make banshees after the initial harassment, they just fall back behind even more. Do you mean 1/2 or 1-2 turrets? I can't see how 1/2 a turret would be helpful.
Did you seriously ask that? Holy ****.
On topic, if you decide not to build turrets a common thing to do is to just save scans around the time banshee cloak finishes. You don't really need the mules if you're already up an expo against a player who opens 1/1/1.
|
On January 15 2012 14:54 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 14:48 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:
Turrets mang. One turret at each gas and then a turret near your production is usually good enough to stop any banshee harass. This. Then you just go attack anyway and your opponent has to pull the banshees back to defend. You could even leave a handful of marines home to be extra safe and still completely overrun your opponent if he's going 1/1/1 or 2 port banshees, especially if they researched cloak.
Wrong, a lot of top pros go cloak banshees into standard tvt play. Siege tanks will stop pretty much any 1/2 base marine heavy push dead in its tracks with banshee/hellion or banshee/marine support.
|
Agree with Reggae-Troll. Not sure how to deal with Reaper (especially with speed)/Hellion/Medivac harass... Here's a replay. Basically the build falls apart mid way through due to the damage done. Not sure with slow marines how one is meant to cope with this?
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/17191
|
In fact I just found Thorzain really struggling to deal with this on his stream:
See about 15mins in:
Thorzain himself seems to imply that if the person he was playing had better micro he could have just died...
www.twitch.tv/thorzain/b/305247605
(Second part).
|
Thanks for the help everyone I will be updating OP to include responses on banshees and raise the issue of reaper aggression
@Mods: if you think the title of thread should be changed to something more general (like “Thorzain's TvT discussion” please feel free to change it)
|
On January 15 2012 15:31 Sovern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 14:54 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:On January 15 2012 14:48 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:
Turrets mang. One turret at each gas and then a turret near your production is usually good enough to stop any banshee harass. This. Then you just go attack anyway and your opponent has to pull the banshees back to defend. You could even leave a handful of marines home to be extra safe and still completely overrun your opponent if he's going 1/1/1 or 2 port banshees, especially if they researched cloak. Wrong, a lot of top pros go cloak banshees into standard tvt play. Siege tanks will stop pretty much any 1/2 base marine heavy push dead in its tracks with banshee/hellion or banshee/marine support.
It's about timing though. If the opponent goes cloaked banshees the timing push the op is talking about while hit his opponent at a timing where he can't possibly have enough to hold off the attack. If you watch the Day[9] daily of thorzain's TvT and compare the times with a standard 1/1/1 or 2 port banshee timing, you'll see what i'm talking about.
|
I have a nice tip for you, just put down the turrets, it sounds like you have some how, very easy to handle the other tactics from terrans that are thrown at you, in the latest homestory cup 4 you can see the koreans that played often used 2 to even 4 workers to scout what the enemy was doing, coz they feel confident that losing some extra unit to be asure that they werent gonna be suprised, its like having 2 less marines = 1 turret. Ive started doing this coz I know I can beat my enemy fair and square if they dont cheese, hope ive helped somehow, and also sry for the grammar... Police
BacON
|
On January 15 2012 14:10 Sovern wrote:
I just had to chime in that personally, I love when my opponent goes 1 rax fe tvt. People might say that marines with CS and 1/2 turrets shuts down banshees but its just not true. You can harass all of the open spots that the turrets aren't protecting to force even more turrets, pick off marines/tanks, and delay them putting their expo down all while you expand yourself and getting all of your production out.
This problem is completely solved as long as you build all of your buildings close together. Maybe you have to put 1 in each mineral line and 1 by your production facilities but that should be all that is necessary. If you only invest in one banshee without cloak you may come out even but I cannot see you coming out ahead if you invest in more than 1 banshee or cloak. I certainly have never come out behind to banshees using this build and am a high masters terran. If you are playing at a masters+ level I would love to see a replay or two backing up your claim.
|
I didn't see any solid response to the 3 Reaper harass issue, which seems to be growing in popularity...
|
Russian Federation68 Posts
If you see reapers, you just can delay add-ons to get more marines.
I have some porblems with this build when playing against mech. I have lots of marines in early game, but they do bad against Hellions. I can't push or harras with 2 medivacs because meching terran just turltle in his base with sieged tanks + hellions. And in middle game BH Hellions + Tanks rapes marine heavy compositions. How to answer to mechings terrans?
I need to go marauder heavy, but how can i switch better?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
