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I recently saw the Day9 daily on thorzain's TvT build and have been trying it out. In my limited experience so far, it works as advertised vs bio, marine tank and the several other fairly standard Terran options. However, I and others have had problems with some openers
Solved Problems / Questions
-Banshees
1) The build gets a very late starport and so you are left defending with just marines. Unless the banshee player mismicros or leaves the banshees somewhere they shouldn’t be, marines before stim are not great at defending banshee harass. So the banshees do a lot of damage (kill or damage lots of marines) and force a lot of scans if they have cloak.
2) The build gets fairly late siege tanks and late siege tech. Normally this is OK since it uses the mass marines with upgrades early to get a really good position on the map and so you siege up in a great spot even though you don’t have a lot of tanks. But with banshees in play, if the marines leave your base early, you get wrecked. So the marines have to stay put until you have several turrets and maybe a Viking. This means your tanks don’t get a good position and you have nothing to make up for the fact that your siege tanks are fairly late.
Solution: The combat shield marines are OK against banshees as long as turrets are up before the banshees arrive. If you think the opponent might be going banshees scan either when the orbital at natural finishes or partway through the EBay. If you sense they might be going banshees put 1 turret up at each mineral line to give your marines something micro around. If you Know its cloaked banshees for sure, put up a turret at each gas and 1 near your production and he will do no damage and be way behind.
Remaining Questions:
Reapers
-Several people have reported problems with Reapers. In particular, while the rax are getting add-ons there is an interruption in marine production (followed by an explosion in production when the add-ons finish). Builds that save up several reapers and hit all at once during this interval have done a lot of damage (either just 3 reapers or reapers plus hellions)
-Has anyone else been having this problem when working with this build?
-If so what have you been doing to address this? Changing the build a little, reordering things, or audibleing to a totally different plan?
-Other problems people have been having?
-Any general discussion of this build is also welcome as there is not an all-purpose discussion thread for this build and we don’t want too many topics for 1 daily
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Reference Material
(here's the link to Day9 if interested in the source http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-394-p1-terran-week-thorzain-s-tvt-5862954#disqus_thread )
The best way to get the build is watching day9 at the above link, but below is a quick written summary from my notes:
rax then cc
then another rax
get 2 gases
and then 2 guys on each gas!
start rax #3 when #2 is finished
add on reactor then tech lab
combat shield and another reactor
ebay, factory, 3rd gas, and up to 3 guys on first 2 gasses
starport that swaps for reactor the factory built
and then last step building tech lab on factory and getting siege
Go take a good position with marines and siege up there
Edit 1: updated to include responses on banshees and raise the issue of reaper aggression
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I actually think this build works well against Banshees. Consider a few things
1. The ebay id down by 630, do a scan with ur new orbital and if u suspect banshees or cloak, like two gas or even factort, just throw down two turrets.
2. Combat shield is early, so you get 3 hits per marine instead of two.
I agree that it is difficult to say, hard stop banshees, without vikings, or an early stim, however, you have to understand, that if the opponent goes banshees you are likely very very far ahead and he has to do CONSIDERABLY damage to catch up. Usually I might get a lot of harass, but then I will roll him later with my macro.
Masters T.
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Banshees are easy to drive away when marines take 3 hits to kill and I have plenty of minerals for turrets, late stim means I can't kill them but it's ok as long as they stay away from my mineral line.
I've actually been having more trouble against reapers and reaper/hellion/medivac play, the marine count explodes when add-ons are done but before that you're quite vulnerable to something like 3 reaper harassment (most annoying loss, I had 3 marines ready to intercept reapers if they decide to hop in, he runs in and scans my base and then proceeds to 1 shot my 3 marines from the lowground...)
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1/2 turret in each base will deflect any banshee opening and put you way ahead. If they continue to make banshees after the initial harassment, they just fall back behind even more.
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On January 15 2012 11:07 LiLSighKoh wrote:
1/2 turret in each base will deflect any banshee opening and put you way ahead. If they continue to make banshees after the initial harassment, they just fall back behind even more.
Do you mean 1/2 or 1-2 turrets? I can't see how 1/2 a turret would be helpful.
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this build shuts banshees down as long as your turrets are up. I get my ebay earlier than the normal time. around 5:00 jsut so my ups are faster than the terrans if they are doing the same build. then the scan at 6:20 will tell you if banshees are coming. if you see tech lab starport start making turrets, cloaked or not.
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Combat shield marines completely shut down banshee, especially when you have a engineering bay that quickly
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I just had to chime in that personally, I love when my opponent goes 1 rax fe tvt. People might say that marines with CS and 1/2 turrets shuts down banshees but its just not true. You can harass all of the open spots that the turrets aren't protecting to force even more turrets, pick off marines/tanks, and delay them putting their expo down all while you expand yourself and getting all of your production out.
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Turrets mang. One turret at each gas and then a turret near your production is usually good enough to stop any banshee harass.
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On January 15 2012 14:48 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:
Turrets mang. One turret at each gas and then a turret near your production is usually good enough to stop any banshee harass.
This. Then you just go attack anyway and your opponent has to pull the banshees back to defend. You could even leave a handful of marines home to be extra safe and still completely overrun your opponent if he's going 1/1/1 or 2 port banshees, especially if they researched cloak.
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On January 15 2012 11:13 hammonjj wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 11:07 LiLSighKoh wrote:
1/2 turret in each base will deflect any banshee opening and put you way ahead. If they continue to make banshees after the initial harassment, they just fall back behind even more. Do you mean 1/2 or 1-2 turrets? I can't see how 1/2 a turret would be helpful.
Did you seriously ask that? Holy ****.
On topic, if you decide not to build turrets a common thing to do is to just save scans around the time banshee cloak finishes. You don't really need the mules if you're already up an expo against a player who opens 1/1/1.
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On January 15 2012 14:54 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 14:48 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:
Turrets mang. One turret at each gas and then a turret near your production is usually good enough to stop any banshee harass. This. Then you just go attack anyway and your opponent has to pull the banshees back to defend. You could even leave a handful of marines home to be extra safe and still completely overrun your opponent if he's going 1/1/1 or 2 port banshees, especially if they researched cloak.
Wrong, a lot of top pros go cloak banshees into standard tvt play. Siege tanks will stop pretty much any 1/2 base marine heavy push dead in its tracks with banshee/hellion or banshee/marine support.
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Agree with Reggae-Troll. Not sure how to deal with Reaper (especially with speed)/Hellion/Medivac harass... Here's a replay. Basically the build falls apart mid way through due to the damage done. Not sure with slow marines how one is meant to cope with this?
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/17191
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In fact I just found Thorzain really struggling to deal with this on his stream:
See about 15mins in:
Thorzain himself seems to imply that if the person he was playing had better micro he could have just died...
www.twitch.tv/thorzain/b/305247605
(Second part).
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Thanks for the help everyone I will be updating OP to include responses on banshees and raise the issue of reaper aggression
@Mods: if you think the title of thread should be changed to something more general (like “Thorzain's TvT discussion” please feel free to change it)
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On January 15 2012 15:31 Sovern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 14:54 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:On January 15 2012 14:48 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:
Turrets mang. One turret at each gas and then a turret near your production is usually good enough to stop any banshee harass. This. Then you just go attack anyway and your opponent has to pull the banshees back to defend. You could even leave a handful of marines home to be extra safe and still completely overrun your opponent if he's going 1/1/1 or 2 port banshees, especially if they researched cloak. Wrong, a lot of top pros go cloak banshees into standard tvt play. Siege tanks will stop pretty much any 1/2 base marine heavy push dead in its tracks with banshee/hellion or banshee/marine support.
It's about timing though. If the opponent goes cloaked banshees the timing push the op is talking about while hit his opponent at a timing where he can't possibly have enough to hold off the attack. If you watch the Day[9] daily of thorzain's TvT and compare the times with a standard 1/1/1 or 2 port banshee timing, you'll see what i'm talking about.
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I have a nice tip for you, just put down the turrets, it sounds like you have some how, very easy to handle the other tactics from terrans that are thrown at you, in the latest homestory cup 4 you can see the koreans that played often used 2 to even 4 workers to scout what the enemy was doing, coz they feel confident that losing some extra unit to be asure that they werent gonna be suprised, its like having 2 less marines = 1 turret. Ive started doing this coz I know I can beat my enemy fair and square if they dont cheese, hope ive helped somehow, and also sry for the grammar... Police
BacON
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On January 15 2012 14:10 Sovern wrote:
I just had to chime in that personally, I love when my opponent goes 1 rax fe tvt. People might say that marines with CS and 1/2 turrets shuts down banshees but its just not true. You can harass all of the open spots that the turrets aren't protecting to force even more turrets, pick off marines/tanks, and delay them putting their expo down all while you expand yourself and getting all of your production out.
This problem is completely solved as long as you build all of your buildings close together. Maybe you have to put 1 in each mineral line and 1 by your production facilities but that should be all that is necessary. If you only invest in one banshee without cloak you may come out even but I cannot see you coming out ahead if you invest in more than 1 banshee or cloak. I certainly have never come out behind to banshees using this build and am a high masters terran. If you are playing at a masters+ level I would love to see a replay or two backing up your claim.
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I didn't see any solid response to the 3 Reaper harass issue, which seems to be growing in popularity...
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Russian Federation68 Posts
If you see reapers, you just can delay add-ons to get more marines.
I have some porblems with this build when playing against mech. I have lots of marines in early game, but they do bad against Hellions. I can't push or harras with 2 medivacs because meching terran just turltle in his base with sieged tanks + hellions. And in middle game BH Hellions + Tanks rapes marine heavy compositions. How to answer to mechings terrans?
I need to go marauder heavy, but how can i switch better?
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Has anyone else had the chance to test delaying add ons vs reapers? Do you see them in time to know you need to do it?
I haven't hit reapers for a few days, mostly its been hellions. I've been responding to hellions by building 1-2 bunkers depending on how open the nat is and getting tanks before starport instead of after. Not sure if this really works though or if its just worked for me due to mis controls of the hellions.
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I really love this build by thorzain, i do prefer to reaper expand though, being able to see what is coming (banshee, multiple reapers), only take the one gas, so i can get combat shields, 2 reactors, and +1 attack before taking another gas. Most terrans try to go straight for the scvs so i rally my marines into the mineral line and use a few scvs and marines to try to push back the reapers. if you hold off the reapers you can pretty much deny them from taking their natural and you`ll be ahead. If you can`t then you`ll probably have more marines and better ups for a push later on.
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I've attempted this build, but I've had some difficulties with 2-tank pushes whereas it shuts banshees down completely (see earlier suggestions as to why - that about covers my strategies). What are others feelings about your opponent quick pushing with siege mode + 1 viking?
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On January 19 2012 13:03 Jazzman88 wrote:
I've attempted this build, but I've had some difficulties with 2-tank pushes whereas it shuts banshees down completely (see earlier suggestions as to why - that about covers my strategies). What are others feelings about your opponent quick pushing with siege mode + 1 viking?
Against siege mode, as with all marine-focused early-game builds, you'll have to force an engagement when he's unsieged and bum-rush with marines and SCVs if needed. SeleCT does this really well, there was a game against MVP on Xel'Naga Caverns where MVP went early tanks, and SeleCT was only on marine hellion, so SeleCT bided time for stim, and surrounded MVP's units while dropping marines from medivacs on top of the siege tanks. The viking was able to kill his Medivac, but most of the marines were already dropped.
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Usually you can break the siege push even if he is already sieged. Especially if its only 2 tanks. Pull a large number of scvs and split your marines/scvs so they aren't all clumped together and send them and you should be able to break it. If you manage to catch this push unsieged you are extremely far ahead.
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your supposed to keep in a forward position.... yeah youll lose if 2 tanks are blasting through a choke at your main. it even says in the build to pretty much rally marines to a watch tower.
2 tank push is not scary at all with this build if you never get supply blocked
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The "half a turret" off-topic made me think about something close: 99% ready to require just a touch to finish but still be cancellable if banshees don't come, if you really don't want those towers (and if you care to simcity like that). That'd be similar to salvaging a bunker.
My own problem with this build: I can't seem to be able to defend myself against marine-only rushes. It's hard to fend off a bioball or siege rush and I suppose it'd be near impossible to defend against a stim rush (I'm not presuming brilliant stutter step micro here) and I believe the 9 rax cheese (or possibly a 2 rax) would kill it without breaking a sweat. I suspect ladder optimisation may require bunkers. But this build side-tracked with bunkers may become inferior to builds which incorporate stationary defences by design.
Word of advice with banshees: don't presume this is just an opening. Banshee players sometimes soft-contain you with the banshees and expand in the background to get either a normal army or just more banshees, and sometimes battlecruisers. With depleted OC energy and unguarded turrets, a surprise raid of several banshees can do damage, as well as a sudden appearance of, say, 5 battlecruisers (though he may well be trying to get a lot of them along with upgrades behind the monkey business banshee harass, as I used to do).
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Russian Federation68 Posts
I still have lots of problems with this build playing against mech terran. BF Hellions in early and middle game counter marines very good and enemy can abuse lots of hellion drops. I cant aford alot of marauders, because i have 2 reactors.
And when it comes to late game, mass hellions can counter any drops by me and can affectivily counter far expansions while opponent gathering lots of tanks.
So, the question is - how to counter mech oriented openers with this build?
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On February 03 2012 16:46 yaRus wrote:
I still have lots of problems with this build playing against mech terran. BF Hellions in early and middle game counter marines very good and enemy can abuse lots of hellion drops. I cant aford alot of marauders, because i have 2 reactors.
And when it comes to late game, mass hellions can counter any drops by me and can affectivily counter far expansions while opponent gathering lots of tanks.
So, the question is - how to counter mech oriented openers with this build?
i think you cannot continue to go marine/tank or you will mostly loose... hellions are too cost-efficient. if i see them going mech (more then 1 factory) i would swap the rax away from the reactors and build more techlabs.. you have to add in a good amount of marauders to survive against mech or go mech yourself.
TL:DR you cannot with this build, you have to alter it to more RAX with Techlab.
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I get combat shield specifically for defending banshees. Marines with that upgrade, coupled with 1-2 turrets at mineral lines easily denies banshee, and allows for counter aggression once pressure is averted.
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I am only platinum, but I ♥♥♥LOVE ♥♥♥ banshee play. It is easily my favorite Terran unit (they remind me of my landspeeders from my Raven wing army).
However, let me give my fellow Terran buddies some advice on banshees - typically you want to keep 4-6 marines in a clump to chase the banshees. 4 marines is too many for a banshee to really take down.
Be careful on the advice to "Just go attack" many times a banshee player will either have bunkers and/or tanks back home, so you may be running into a trap. Also, the walk paths are such that if you time it wrong the opponent may see it and queue a banshee just for defense, which means that the 1-2 that are in your base are still going to be in your base poking at your soft parts while the banshee at home cloaks and destroys your push.
The way I look at banshees may be different than how other people look at them so I will explain my view.
I see two basic types of banshee - Army Banshee and Harass Banshee.
Each banshee you make can fall into either category, but you have to realize what the purpose of your tool is going to be. If you are making banshees before 10 minutes, they really need to be harass banshees first and then can fill the role of army banshees after they are no longer effective. If they are being made after 10 minutes, they better be able to be army banshees.
The Harass Banshee needs to have 7 kills (preferably workers) before it dies to ensure that you are not behind. If you have less than 7 kills per banshee that you have made YOU ARE BEHIND!!!1!! (on noes). After a banshee has 7 kills, you can be careless with that banshee (or if you make 2 banshees then 14 kills total between the two). I am not saying that you can just throw it away, because it is now garbage, but I do mean that you can now prioritize your macro over your micro, and if the banshees don't make it, it isn't a big deal - but it is always nice to have them.
The Army Banshee is one that is either part of your standard looking marine/tank army, vangards your mech army, or is the workhorse of your air Terran army. Army banshees don't have to do damage, and can do a little bit of mild harass, but their point is to force the opponent to get vikings and ravens, to build excessive turrets, and to otherwise crap the bed. If you and your opponent both charge into each other with a similar army size and they have a few extra marines to your 2-12 cloaked banshees, you will win the engagement in style. especially if you can force them out of scans before the engagement.
I realize now that I have probably said too much, so hopefully if anyone reads this they get something out of it. Good luck, have fun.
TL;DR - Banshees are better than cake.
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I've tried out this build and had success against hellion drops and banshee openings, but I've ran into huge trouble with aggressive 2rax and siege pushes.
Reapers can be pain to deal with, depends on opponent's micro abilities.
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I am just learning the ins and outs of this build. I would go with the blind eng bay (as timed in the build) and scan when your second orbital finishes and then heavy turret play against cloak banshees since you are far ahead you can definitely afford 5 turrets, I myself sometimes get greedy and try to get by with 2 but this often ends up costing me tons of scans and marines, and I kick myself for it afterwards.
Combat shield is not done in time for the arrival of the banshees so thats another reason to go turret heavy. Try your best to bother the banshees with marines because keep in mind if he is microing his banshees really hard his macro is suffering. Try not to commit with the marines because he is on a cloak time limit and its not that long before cloak will be gone. If hes good he will have a tank before you have stim up so the best thing to do is wait for dropships and drop his main, he shouldnt have enough to defend
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if your having trouble with banshees i would recommend going fe into 1-1-1. You can have siege mode out in time to stop early tank pushes and you can swap your starport onto a reactor and get two vikings if you scan banshee play. It also sets up nicely for mech play which is superior to bio
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Okay, so i do this build. Does anyone else have a problem with a 1/1/1 all in? I just played. He had 3 tanks, used his banshee for vision, and used marines as back up, how do you stop this?
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@ Overlord
Replay please?
Hold the towers. See the tanks coming. Pressure him and force the tanks to siege. Back off. Hit him when he unsieges to move forward. I'll assume this push came somewhat after 8:00 based on 3 tanks. At that point you should have 25+ marines, are adding 5 per cycle and have a far superior economy. Since he's going all-in, he needs to end it as quickly as possible. He doesn't have the luxury of leap-grogging his tanks methodically given how fast you're building marines. Use that to your advantage; the choice of either delaying or getting hit on the move is not a good choice for him. The problem comes when you don't bother with map vision and let them siege up at your natural before you have a chance to respond.
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On February 06 2012 04:20 jisora wrote:
@ Overlord
Replay please?
Hold the towers. See the tanks coming. Pressure him and force the tanks to siege. Back off. Hit him when he unsieges to move forward. I'll assume this push came somewhat after 8:00 based on 3 tanks. At that point you should have 25+ marines, are adding 5 per cycle and have a far superior economy. Since he's going all-in, he needs to end it as quickly as possible. He doesn't have the luxury of leap-grogging his tanks methodically given how fast you're building marines. Use that to your advantage; the choice of either delaying or getting hit on the move is not a good choice for him. The problem comes when you don't bother with map vision and let them siege up at your natural before you have a chance to respond.
I always have the tower, but i wait until he comes to my natural. I feel that if i even engaged when he was unsieged he would still win because im being hit just before stim is done or 1/1. so even with my larger rine count, the banshee would wreck me along with tanks and his marines.
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Now that Heart of the Swarm is out, I was wondering how feasible this build still is. I really like the build and so I'd like to do a variation on the build for HotS. I have two points to make.
One problem I've had had nothing to do with HotS units. the other guy was massing marines and tanks of of one base, from two barracks (one reactor), and 1 factory. He didn't have an orbital up yet, and pushed around the 930 minute mark. I had 3 rax, 2 orbitals up, producing 5 marines at a time. In the end I had 5 orso more marines with superior upgrades but no tanks. He had 4 and tore me to shreds. Considering his push came well after the 5 minute mark, I should have had an advantage. But replaying made it obvious something had to change in the build. So I decided on this:
- Scout expansion timing when factory starts. Your scout will arrive just before your factory finishes. If I see no expansion, instead of adding a reactor (for the starport), I add a tech lab, for earlier tank production. When the factory starts around 635, I should have 2 tanks by the time this... dare I say timing push, arrives. I probably should've also built some bunkers, but they don't fare well against siege tanks I guess.
Secondly, I see a lot of people with reaper harass problems. Since of HotS reapers became more viable an option, requiring no addon. Does this change the face of TvT considerably? Or can I with minor changes still cling onto this neato build? Some thoughts. Fire away.
Ow, and third. Drops to advance the siege line, have just been increased in efficiency thanks to medivac boost. The Siege tech doesn't require research anymore, so I see this as two pros for keeping this strategy in HotS.
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On May 05 2013 21:11 Nanaki wrote:
Now that Heart of the Swarm is out, I was wondering how feasible this build still is. I really like the build and so I'd like to do a variation on the build for HotS. I have two points to make.
One problem I've had had nothing to do with HotS units. the other guy was massing marines and tanks of of one base, from two barracks (one reactor), and 1 factory. He didn't have an orbital up yet, and pushed around the 930 minute mark. I had 3 rax, 2 orbitals up, producing 5 marines at a time. In the end I had 5 orso more marines with superior upgrades but no tanks. He had 4 and tore me to shreds. Considering his push came well after the 5 minute mark, I should have had an advantage. But replaying made it obvious something had to change in the build. So I decided on this:
- Scout expansion timing when factory starts. Your scout will arrive just before your factory finishes. If I see no expansion, instead of adding a reactor (for the starport), I add a tech lab, for earlier tank production. When the factory starts around 635, I should have 2 tanks by the time this... dare I say timing push, arrives. I probably should've also built some bunkers, but they don't fare well against siege tanks I guess.
Secondly, I see a lot of people with reaper harass problems. Since of HotS reapers became more viable an option, requiring no addon. Does this change the face of TvT considerably? Or can I with minor changes still cling onto this neato build? Some thoughts. Fire away.
Ow, and third. Drops to advance the siege line, have just been increased in efficiency thanks to medivac boost. The Siege tech doesn't require research anymore, so I see this as two pros for keeping this strategy in HotS. Scout, pull scvs and intercept his push before he can get to your natural and siege. You will be way ahead with 2 orbitals
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I feel like fast raven is the most economical way to stop a banshee opener. A well executed banshee build (Byun's) will already be pulling ahead if even 1 turret is made.
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On May 06 2013 11:16 Nexic wrote:
Scout, pull scvs and intercept his push before he can get to your natural and siege. You will be way ahead with 2 orbitals
To siege, you need siege tanks, and those don't come out until 845 with the altered build I tried. Otherwise, if you do the swap, I'll have to add another 50+10s swaptime, making the first one come out at 945. So you mean I should take the middle before my first siege tank comes out? I can try that.
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On May 06 2013 11:29 sixilli wrote:
I feel like fast raven is the most economical way to stop a banshee opener. A well executed banshee build (Byun's) will already be pulling ahead if even 1 turret is made.
Can you give me a link? Cloaked Banshee timing is 720 right? And how would a Raven be a better option than a turret, considering you have to get this raven to pop out at 720 or at least not too much later, which to me sounds impossible, considering you only have the gas to start a factory at 635, if you start combat shields first. Do you saturate the geysers earlier? Like, when you see he got a factory at 320? Or what is it exactly that you can do with that early scv scout to get that kind of information and still respond in time... of course without having to waste a scan. 
You can tell I'm a nooby right? :s
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You can't go fast raven if you follow this build. That's the point, it's almost a BO loss vs the cloak 3 OC build. Also, there are certain timings that can be exploited, there's a large chunk of time when you're building your 3rd rax + making a reactor where you'll only have a single TL rax producing no-CS marines and nothing else.
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On May 07 2013 02:20 Whatson wrote:
You can't go fast raven if you follow this build. That's the point, it's almost a BO loss vs the cloak 3 OC build. Also, there are certain timings that can be exploited, there's a large chunk of time when you're building your 3rd rax + making a reactor where you'll only have a single TL rax producing no-CS marines and nothing else.
A BO isn't static and should be adapted to your scouting info. I agree there's a whole timing window in which horrible pains can come. I witnessed first hand, how big the timing window is (my first reply). But I'd like to know what can be done to cover up this timing window, e.g. by building bunkers and stuff. Day[9] always speaks of little adjustments over abandoning a build, and I'm trying to make them, without sacrificing the overall idea of getting a good early tank line. Or is this just not a strat that will get you into diamond/masters (although Thorzain did it)?
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On May 07 2013 01:37 Nanaki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 11:29 sixilli wrote:
I feel like fast raven is the most economical way to stop a banshee opener. A well executed banshee build (Byun's) will already be pulling ahead if even 1 turret is made. Can you give me a link? Cloaked Banshee timing is 720 right? And how would a Raven be a better option than a turret, considering you have to get this raven to pop out at 720 or at least not too much later, which to me sounds impossible, considering you only have the gas to start a factory at 635, if you start combat shields first. Do you saturate the geysers earlier? Like, when you see he got a factory at 320? Or what is it exactly that you can do with that early scv scout to get that kind of information and still respond in time... of course without having to waste a scan. You can tell I'm a nooby right? :s
Byun's banshee build is gas first into a 1/1/1 into a fast third. Sadly I can't give out replays because byun disabled them on his Twitch. Pretty much it's an aggressive build followed up with an economic cheese to win you the game.
If you wanted the fast raven build watch the Ryung Vs Dream game. This build is not noob friendly and requires a stupid amount of multi tasking, good luck x] http://www.sc2win.com/replays/teamstory-Cup/Acer-TeamStory-Cup-2013-Group-Replaypack--11-113.html
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On May 07 2013 06:50 Nanaki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 02:20 Whatson wrote:
You can't go fast raven if you follow this build. That's the point, it's almost a BO loss vs the cloak 3 OC build. Also, there are certain timings that can be exploited, there's a large chunk of time when you're building your 3rd rax + making a reactor where you'll only have a single TL rax producing no-CS marines and nothing else. A BO isn't static and should be adapted to your scouting info. I agree there's a whole timing window in which horrible pains can come. I witnessed first hand, how big the timing window is (my first reply). But I'd like to know what can be done to cover up this timing window, e.g. by building bunkers and stuff. Day[9] always speaks of little adjustments over abandoning a build, and I'm trying to make them, without sacrificing the overall idea of getting a good early tank line. Or is this just not a strat that will get you into diamond/masters (although Thorzain did it)?
You can place decently high, I was still coming out even/ahead with the thorzain build when I was playing low masters in WoL, but in HotS things are quite a bit different, at least imo. You could always build extra turrets + bunkers at the front, but again, if I'm using the cloak triple CC build, I'm going to be ahead unless I do 0 damage with my first banshee. The only few games that I've seen DeMu coming out even/behind with the ByuN build is when MaSa went raven first + reactored marines and sniped the first two banshees with only about 5 kills each, and when his cloak was delayed enough so that Shuttle could kill the first banshee with marine+viking.
The thorzain build isn't even the best build for "getting a good early tank line" 15 gas into reactor rax + tanks has the expo down at almost the same time but with much faster tanks.
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On May 07 2013 09:44 Whatson wrote:
The thorzain build isn't even the best build for "getting a good early tank line" 15 gas into reactor rax + tanks has the expo down at almost the same time but with much faster tanks.
So, if I want a good early tankline and start slow pushing, and scooping an' all that good jazz, I should dump the thorzain build and go with 15 gas into reactor rax + tanks. Can you post a link? thx
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EPT
