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On May 05 2013 21:11 Nanaki wrote:
Now that Heart of the Swarm is out, I was wondering how feasible this build still is. I really like the build and so I'd like to do a variation on the build for HotS. I have two points to make.
One problem I've had had nothing to do with HotS units. the other guy was massing marines and tanks of of one base, from two barracks (one reactor), and 1 factory. He didn't have an orbital up yet, and pushed around the 930 minute mark. I had 3 rax, 2 orbitals up, producing 5 marines at a time. In the end I had 5 orso more marines with superior upgrades but no tanks. He had 4 and tore me to shreds. Considering his push came well after the 5 minute mark, I should have had an advantage. But replaying made it obvious something had to change in the build. So I decided on this:
- Scout expansion timing when factory starts. Your scout will arrive just before your factory finishes. If I see no expansion, instead of adding a reactor (for the starport), I add a tech lab, for earlier tank production. When the factory starts around 635, I should have 2 tanks by the time this... dare I say timing push, arrives. I probably should've also built some bunkers, but they don't fare well against siege tanks I guess.
Secondly, I see a lot of people with reaper harass problems. Since of HotS reapers became more viable an option, requiring no addon. Does this change the face of TvT considerably? Or can I with minor changes still cling onto this neato build? Some thoughts. Fire away.
Ow, and third. Drops to advance the siege line, have just been increased in efficiency thanks to medivac boost. The Siege tech doesn't require research anymore, so I see this as two pros for keeping this strategy in HotS. Scout, pull scvs and intercept his push before he can get to your natural and siege. You will be way ahead with 2 orbitals
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I feel like fast raven is the most economical way to stop a banshee opener. A well executed banshee build (Byun's) will already be pulling ahead if even 1 turret is made.
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On May 06 2013 11:16 Nexic wrote:
Scout, pull scvs and intercept his push before he can get to your natural and siege. You will be way ahead with 2 orbitals
To siege, you need siege tanks, and those don't come out until 845 with the altered build I tried. Otherwise, if you do the swap, I'll have to add another 50+10s swaptime, making the first one come out at 945. So you mean I should take the middle before my first siege tank comes out? I can try that.
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On May 06 2013 11:29 sixilli wrote:
I feel like fast raven is the most economical way to stop a banshee opener. A well executed banshee build (Byun's) will already be pulling ahead if even 1 turret is made.
Can you give me a link? Cloaked Banshee timing is 720 right? And how would a Raven be a better option than a turret, considering you have to get this raven to pop out at 720 or at least not too much later, which to me sounds impossible, considering you only have the gas to start a factory at 635, if you start combat shields first. Do you saturate the geysers earlier? Like, when you see he got a factory at 320? Or what is it exactly that you can do with that early scv scout to get that kind of information and still respond in time... of course without having to waste a scan. 
You can tell I'm a nooby right? :s
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You can't go fast raven if you follow this build. That's the point, it's almost a BO loss vs the cloak 3 OC build. Also, there are certain timings that can be exploited, there's a large chunk of time when you're building your 3rd rax + making a reactor where you'll only have a single TL rax producing no-CS marines and nothing else.
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On May 07 2013 02:20 Whatson wrote:
You can't go fast raven if you follow this build. That's the point, it's almost a BO loss vs the cloak 3 OC build. Also, there are certain timings that can be exploited, there's a large chunk of time when you're building your 3rd rax + making a reactor where you'll only have a single TL rax producing no-CS marines and nothing else.
A BO isn't static and should be adapted to your scouting info. I agree there's a whole timing window in which horrible pains can come. I witnessed first hand, how big the timing window is (my first reply). But I'd like to know what can be done to cover up this timing window, e.g. by building bunkers and stuff. Day[9] always speaks of little adjustments over abandoning a build, and I'm trying to make them, without sacrificing the overall idea of getting a good early tank line. Or is this just not a strat that will get you into diamond/masters (although Thorzain did it)?
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On May 07 2013 01:37 Nanaki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 11:29 sixilli wrote:
I feel like fast raven is the most economical way to stop a banshee opener. A well executed banshee build (Byun's) will already be pulling ahead if even 1 turret is made. Can you give me a link? Cloaked Banshee timing is 720 right? And how would a Raven be a better option than a turret, considering you have to get this raven to pop out at 720 or at least not too much later, which to me sounds impossible, considering you only have the gas to start a factory at 635, if you start combat shields first. Do you saturate the geysers earlier? Like, when you see he got a factory at 320? Or what is it exactly that you can do with that early scv scout to get that kind of information and still respond in time... of course without having to waste a scan. You can tell I'm a nooby right? :s
Byun's banshee build is gas first into a 1/1/1 into a fast third. Sadly I can't give out replays because byun disabled them on his Twitch. Pretty much it's an aggressive build followed up with an economic cheese to win you the game.
If you wanted the fast raven build watch the Ryung Vs Dream game. This build is not noob friendly and requires a stupid amount of multi tasking, good luck x] http://www.sc2win.com/replays/teamstory-Cup/Acer-TeamStory-Cup-2013-Group-Replaypack--11-113.html
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On May 07 2013 06:50 Nanaki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 02:20 Whatson wrote:
You can't go fast raven if you follow this build. That's the point, it's almost a BO loss vs the cloak 3 OC build. Also, there are certain timings that can be exploited, there's a large chunk of time when you're building your 3rd rax + making a reactor where you'll only have a single TL rax producing no-CS marines and nothing else. A BO isn't static and should be adapted to your scouting info. I agree there's a whole timing window in which horrible pains can come. I witnessed first hand, how big the timing window is (my first reply). But I'd like to know what can be done to cover up this timing window, e.g. by building bunkers and stuff. Day[9] always speaks of little adjustments over abandoning a build, and I'm trying to make them, without sacrificing the overall idea of getting a good early tank line. Or is this just not a strat that will get you into diamond/masters (although Thorzain did it)?
You can place decently high, I was still coming out even/ahead with the thorzain build when I was playing low masters in WoL, but in HotS things are quite a bit different, at least imo. You could always build extra turrets + bunkers at the front, but again, if I'm using the cloak triple CC build, I'm going to be ahead unless I do 0 damage with my first banshee. The only few games that I've seen DeMu coming out even/behind with the ByuN build is when MaSa went raven first + reactored marines and sniped the first two banshees with only about 5 kills each, and when his cloak was delayed enough so that Shuttle could kill the first banshee with marine+viking.
The thorzain build isn't even the best build for "getting a good early tank line" 15 gas into reactor rax + tanks has the expo down at almost the same time but with much faster tanks.
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On May 07 2013 09:44 Whatson wrote:
The thorzain build isn't even the best build for "getting a good early tank line" 15 gas into reactor rax + tanks has the expo down at almost the same time but with much faster tanks.
So, if I want a good early tankline and start slow pushing, and scooping an' all that good jazz, I should dump the thorzain build and go with 15 gas into reactor rax + tanks. Can you post a link? thx
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EPT
