|
Northern Ireland117 Posts
I am a Diamond EU Terran and I find TvP extremely difficult a matchup to play-out and i would like to open this thread to my thoughts on why TvP in some ways is a broken matchup from the perspective of Terran reaching late/End-game with protoss.
Lets look at the current meta game of things protoss are doing, warp-gate timings are incredibly powerful, mixed with the warp prism which most protoss just refused to use for a long time makes warp gates even more scary where most protoss seem to abuse the sentry drop to FF your ramp before your have drop ships, this build simply will kill a terran not prepared with units up the ramp and the only way to stop it is to zone out the warp prism untill you have a viking or drop ships.
Immortal busts make bunkers kind of useless at the moment where you simply have to be extremely ontop of your scouting to know how to stop this, and even then it can simply kill you quite easily.
mass zealot late game vs terran is extremely powerful but can be dealt with micro or a tech switch to reactor blue flame helion.
But the be all and end of all what i am pointing Terran lack so much defenders advantage in TvP to such a huge extent. Look at the other matchups tanks provide such a huge defenders advantage and why is this important?
For a matchup to be dynamic and interesting we need back and forth game play, Protoss haves immortals, collosus and HT or even DT along with chrono'd warp gates to muster together a defenders advantage quite easily and allows them to survive and have a fighting chance to play out the game, but when a collosus timming off 2 base hits your choke and you only have 3 vikings and MMM even with a macro advantage and upgrade advantage, you simply will die unless you stall them and micro out in the middle of the map. It feels so much in this matchup terran _simply_ dies rather than he holds on and fights out the game.
Why dont we use Tanks?
In TvP its widly accepted that mech doesn't work for many reasons, if the protoss player plays stright up.
1) immortals tank alot of splash dmg from tanks
2) collosus or archons can destroy your blocking helions very very easily
3) charge lots always hit on charge of micro with helions because very volatile and hard to keep alive to support your tanks
4) lack of a good anti air option since you cant simply just go thors for anti air as 2 thors is simply a huge investment for a not great anti air option.
So were left with MMM with ghosts and vikings. But the longer the game goes on Terran will get weaker and weaker with this unit combo, since 2 decent HT storms can quite simply melt your stim'd army along with 4/5 collosus constantly damaging your army. I really dislike TvP in how simply volatile this matchup can be in that really terran is forced to make marauders and just keep trying to kill you and hit an upgrade timing after getting dmg done by drops. But in my opinion if there was a better defenders advantage for terran this matchup could be so much more interesting. TvP has so much sick potential as Artosis will say on the GSL but its extremely hard to do this with the current game design and balance in my opinion.
PS this isn't a balance discussion but a discussion on what you think about TvP and terrans defenders advantage in TvP in the current meta game.
|
Protoss allins can be dealt with if you scout and prepare for it.
If you're seriously saying Terran has no defender's advantage, then you've seriously never built a bunker. They have the strongest defender's advantage.
|
|
|
While playing against diamond protoss, I have the hardest time ever. I can beat the zerg and other terrans around my level fairly easy but when playing against protoss i certainly agree with "If Terran doesn't do X, they simply die." My drops get denied fairly easy due to warp in + a HT so my scouting information is usually a poke and a scan and pray i see their tech.
At my current moment according to sc2 gears my TvZ is 78% TvT is 72% and my TvP is like 38%. Its just a really difficult matchup for our level.
|
I'm in the same boat, with TvP.
Lately I've been doing what Debo does. He goes for very fast cloak banshees and expands behind it. He then goes from 1/1/1 to 2/2/2 and adjusts his unit comp acording to what protoss has. Tanks are really bad if you get a lot of them but they are great support units. The funny thing about this build is that although its seems bad for the late game since you can't afford to get all the upgrades, its the only build that gives terran a solid late game composition. Too many times have I been stuck on MMM for 30 minutes, only to die to Protoss who remaxes on Colossus Archon Zealot. I think its the future of TvP, or at least a TvP that feels like a Terran matchup. Going bio feels like a gimpy ZvP because you need to waste so many resources and time to build barrack so if your drops don't do damage you are already behind.
|
He's not talking about static defense, he's reffering to macro mechanics and unit comps. The tight-rope style terran plays because of what the OP mentioned is a problem for the matchup.
|
I don't know why you're so concerned in particular with the Terran defender's advantage. If anything, Protoss have it worse. To make up for the absurdly powerful Warp Gate ability on the offense, Protoss units have to be individually weaker, especially early-mid game. This means that when the Warp Gate ability is not being used to it's full extent, Protoss is at an inherent disadvantage. To counteract this, Blizzard gave Protoss the Sentry, designed to be a defensive unit with Forcefield. But this is unreliable, can be dealt with in varies ways and forces Protoss to rely on excellent micro to succeed, especially in lower leagues.
I don't think it's a problem at higher levels, but in lower league TvP both sides seem to have very weak defender's advantage. Thankfully, in lower leagues the most common flaw (apart from poor macro) is passivity, so the issue you talk about is minimal.
|
I lose almost all tvp but im not going to call it broken yet. Alot of the allins we see are really fragile with the toss either cutting probes or skimping out on a unit. If you can read it and abuse it you can win. Winning with build orders or an allin thathits before their timing is not an ideal way to play a matchup but it works. See naama at dreamhack pull 60 scvs an win at the 20 minute mark and you begin to understand that not every option has been exhausted.
Oh. And chargelots are dumb units. I hate them.
|
On November 29 2011 03:45 K3Nyy wrote:
Protoss allins can be dealt with if you scout and prepare for it.
If you're seriously saying Terran has no defender's advantage, then you've seriously never built a bunker. They have the strongest defender's advantage.
Strong but not cheap as forcefields.
Tanks are just too bad in TvP, only useful in 1/1/1. The main reason is that even if they deal a lot of damage zone, they are too weak against Zealots and deal damage to your own units. They are good to destroy Stalkers, Colossus and Sentrys. The Protoss has simply to build Phenixes and you are in a real disadvantage of mobility and army efficiency.
They are 2 ways to defend properly :
- against a 3/4 Gate Robo all-in, it is pretty much impossible to defend when you have taken your expand. So you have to stay on one base and wait for Medivacs or Ghosts
- for other all-ins, keep one SCV outside your base to scout and be sure when he attacks. Put your VCS in front of the bunkers to prevent Zealots to reach the bunkers, and to make the sentrys use more Forcefields. Basically with good micro, and good multitask, it shouldn't be so hard.
Good luck defeating the Protoss !
|
|
|
ITT: Terrans complain about TvP while Protoss say PvT is fine, build bunkers
But my opinion, I think you just have to start simcitying like TvZ and hope you have enough marine/marauder to kill the zealots before stalkers break down your depot wall. There is very little defenders advantage in the early game due to warpgate allowing protoss to circumvent your bunker position.
|
On November 29 2011 03:37 redbrain wrote:
1) immortals tank alot of splash dmg from tanks
I know I'm bad and everything but couldn't you... micro your tanks?
|
Terrans don't use tanks past the 10 minute mark because every protoss unit counters them. If you're using tanks defensively P is gonna blink stalkers around to stall for time while getting charge + storm or colo and you will never be able to safely push protoss without losing half your main (and still probably lose the fight because tanks are so bad).
If you decide not to push with your tanks you will lose every fight 100%.
Meanwhile your army comp will be super marine heavy so splash damage will own you.
tldr: mmm + tank is pretty bad
|
If you FE you need about four bunkers to hold off protoss aggression. I lose a lot and I see people lose a lot because I/they only make two or even three and don't hold off / barely hold off the first wave. You need to crush the first wave such that the future waves can trade evenly.
|
Haha, what tipped the matchup so much in favor of Protoss recently?
immortal range? EMP? It's surely not cheaper upgrades, they add like 1 unit at the minute 15.
I see an incredible amount of "TvP impossible imba imba help me!!!" while Protoss' threads are like "Is that 1 gate FE really optimal? I dunno, I have only 80% winrate with it" :D
You would be a fool not to admit that TvP looks hard for low level players now. What a fortune reversal this is.
|
On November 29 2011 03:37 redbrain wrote:
PS this isn't a balance discussion
I love this. The whole post is just one big balance whine, you even open by calling it a "broken matchup". Adding in this disclaimer changes nothing. Just what are you trying to accomplish by making this thread? If you want help with TvP then make a thread in the strategy section asking for help.
|
On November 29 2011 04:08 ZenithM wrote:
Haha, what tipped the matchup so much in favor of Protoss recently?
immortal range? EMP? It's surely not cheaper upgrades, they add like 1 unit at the minute 15.
I see an incredible amount of "TvP impossible imba imba help me!!!" while Protoss' threads are like "Is that 1 gate FE really optimal? I dunno, I have only 80% winrate with it" :D
You would be a fool not to admit that TvP looks hard for low level players now. What a fortune reversal this is.
The upgrade buffs could have had a psychological effect though. Notice how every decent Protoss has been going double forge against T.
|
i love how you are focusing on the weaknesses of terran rather than the strengths of terran in TvP
ik im a protoss...i also never allin (believe it or not) but i feel that if terran has 3 bunkers then at least 1 should survive being ff'd to death in the push....also if you think he is going to allin without colossus then build a ton of marines with stim....this weakens the immortals a bit since marines > immortals also marines with stim and kite > zealots (without charge or upgrades)
the only reason i would feel for a P allin like 3/4gate immortal to work vs terran is if the terran went for a greedy expand....like a gasless expand and skimped on bunkers
thats just me, but i dont allin vT because i feel that bunkers are ridiculously good with repair even with ff denying repair if they have 3+ bunkers they will be defended from just about any allin (void rays nonwithstanding but those are a microfest w/marines vs vrs generally)
also, terrans just realize how good your scouting is compared to protoss, 1 scan at the right time you see just about everything the P has...namely nexus timing (if there is one he isnt all inning obviously) and at the same time the T can easily deny P scouting til observers with marines placed in the right areas outside the natural (just run back if a stalker shows up...which would be retarded from the P because he doesnt know if you have marauders or not) in addition to that there is a lull in scouting from P til the first observer is out for P to know if T is doing some sort of allin themselves or playing for a later game, also by denying scouting you deny the bunker count from being known by a P so the P could allin into 4 bunkers and not see the bunkers til he is there at which point its gg (unless he gets a prism and attempts to bypass them...which would just lead to a fairly even fight in the Ts main due to the time for a prism to get there allowing for 1-2 more rounds of terran marine/marauder
edit:
On November 29 2011 04:13 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:08 ZenithM wrote:
Haha, what tipped the matchup so much in favor of Protoss recently?
immortal range? EMP? It's surely not cheaper upgrades, they add like 1 unit at the minute 15.
I see an incredible amount of "TvP impossible imba imba help me!!!" while Protoss' threads are like "Is that 1 gate FE really optimal? I dunno, I have only 80% winrate with it" :D
You would be a fool not to admit that TvP looks hard for low level players now. What a fortune reversal this is. The upgrade buffs could have had a psychological effect though. Notice how every decent Protoss has been going double forge against T.
a lot of P like myself were going double forge long before the "upgrade buff" which all that was was blizzard saying...hey protosses...upgrade your shit....it makes stuff stronger!
also, i do feel that PvT is P favored at the moment but not as ridiculously much as a lot of people are treating it as such i doubt its as bad as when amulet was still in (shouldve been nerfed rather than removed though imo)...however i also feel that terran is by far the least explored race, there are so many good units that T has that get no use whatsoever outside of some allin, the ghost was a unit i saw in beta and went...oh shit...when people start doing shit other than fast cloakshee and start adding in units to their mmmv ball, if they start adding ghosts its going to be a hard matchup and i didnt even consider snipe being used lol just emp on a unit that can be easily obtained (in comparison to the science vessel where it cost a shitton of precious gas lol)
|
The "macro mechanic" that saves terran is repairing. You need to have scv's pulled to your bunker as soon as you see they might be attacking. Being able to repair with a large amount of scv's lets terran hang on for an unreal amount of time. It's hard to push with both sentries and immortals to block the repairing, but if that happens.... you're kind of screwed. Unless you went overboard and made 2 + bunkers.
|
Protoss could say the exact same thing with late game Terran armies EMP'ing everything with 10 full energy cloaked ghosts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
