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Northern Ireland117 Posts
I am a Diamond EU Terran and I find TvP extremely difficult a matchup to play-out and i would like to open this thread to my thoughts on why TvP in some ways is a broken matchup from the perspective of Terran reaching late/End-game with protoss.
Lets look at the current meta game of things protoss are doing, warp-gate timings are incredibly powerful, mixed with the warp prism which most protoss just refused to use for a long time makes warp gates even more scary where most protoss seem to abuse the sentry drop to FF your ramp before your have drop ships, this build simply will kill a terran not prepared with units up the ramp and the only way to stop it is to zone out the warp prism untill you have a viking or drop ships.
Immortal busts make bunkers kind of useless at the moment where you simply have to be extremely ontop of your scouting to know how to stop this, and even then it can simply kill you quite easily.
mass zealot late game vs terran is extremely powerful but can be dealt with micro or a tech switch to reactor blue flame helion.
But the be all and end of all what i am pointing Terran lack so much defenders advantage in TvP to such a huge extent. Look at the other matchups tanks provide such a huge defenders advantage and why is this important?
For a matchup to be dynamic and interesting we need back and forth game play, Protoss haves immortals, collosus and HT or even DT along with chrono'd warp gates to muster together a defenders advantage quite easily and allows them to survive and have a fighting chance to play out the game, but when a collosus timming off 2 base hits your choke and you only have 3 vikings and MMM even with a macro advantage and upgrade advantage, you simply will die unless you stall them and micro out in the middle of the map. It feels so much in this matchup terran _simply_ dies rather than he holds on and fights out the game.
Why dont we use Tanks?
In TvP its widly accepted that mech doesn't work for many reasons, if the protoss player plays stright up.
1) immortals tank alot of splash dmg from tanks
2) collosus or archons can destroy your blocking helions very very easily
3) charge lots always hit on charge of micro with helions because very volatile and hard to keep alive to support your tanks
4) lack of a good anti air option since you cant simply just go thors for anti air as 2 thors is simply a huge investment for a not great anti air option.
So were left with MMM with ghosts and vikings. But the longer the game goes on Terran will get weaker and weaker with this unit combo, since 2 decent HT storms can quite simply melt your stim'd army along with 4/5 collosus constantly damaging your army. I really dislike TvP in how simply volatile this matchup can be in that really terran is forced to make marauders and just keep trying to kill you and hit an upgrade timing after getting dmg done by drops. But in my opinion if there was a better defenders advantage for terran this matchup could be so much more interesting. TvP has so much sick potential as Artosis will say on the GSL but its extremely hard to do this with the current game design and balance in my opinion.
PS this isn't a balance discussion but a discussion on what you think about TvP and terrans defenders advantage in TvP in the current meta game.
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Protoss allins can be dealt with if you scout and prepare for it.
If you're seriously saying Terran has no defender's advantage, then you've seriously never built a bunker. They have the strongest defender's advantage.
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While playing against diamond protoss, I have the hardest time ever. I can beat the zerg and other terrans around my level fairly easy but when playing against protoss i certainly agree with "If Terran doesn't do X, they simply die." My drops get denied fairly easy due to warp in + a HT so my scouting information is usually a poke and a scan and pray i see their tech.
At my current moment according to sc2 gears my TvZ is 78% TvT is 72% and my TvP is like 38%. Its just a really difficult matchup for our level.
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I'm in the same boat, with TvP.
Lately I've been doing what Debo does. He goes for very fast cloak banshees and expands behind it. He then goes from 1/1/1 to 2/2/2 and adjusts his unit comp acording to what protoss has. Tanks are really bad if you get a lot of them but they are great support units. The funny thing about this build is that although its seems bad for the late game since you can't afford to get all the upgrades, its the only build that gives terran a solid late game composition. Too many times have I been stuck on MMM for 30 minutes, only to die to Protoss who remaxes on Colossus Archon Zealot. I think its the future of TvP, or at least a TvP that feels like a Terran matchup. Going bio feels like a gimpy ZvP because you need to waste so many resources and time to build barrack so if your drops don't do damage you are already behind.
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He's not talking about static defense, he's reffering to macro mechanics and unit comps. The tight-rope style terran plays because of what the OP mentioned is a problem for the matchup.
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I don't know why you're so concerned in particular with the Terran defender's advantage. If anything, Protoss have it worse. To make up for the absurdly powerful Warp Gate ability on the offense, Protoss units have to be individually weaker, especially early-mid game. This means that when the Warp Gate ability is not being used to it's full extent, Protoss is at an inherent disadvantage. To counteract this, Blizzard gave Protoss the Sentry, designed to be a defensive unit with Forcefield. But this is unreliable, can be dealt with in varies ways and forces Protoss to rely on excellent micro to succeed, especially in lower leagues.
I don't think it's a problem at higher levels, but in lower league TvP both sides seem to have very weak defender's advantage. Thankfully, in lower leagues the most common flaw (apart from poor macro) is passivity, so the issue you talk about is minimal.
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I lose almost all tvp but im not going to call it broken yet. Alot of the allins we see are really fragile with the toss either cutting probes or skimping out on a unit. If you can read it and abuse it you can win. Winning with build orders or an allin thathits before their timing is not an ideal way to play a matchup but it works. See naama at dreamhack pull 60 scvs an win at the 20 minute mark and you begin to understand that not every option has been exhausted.
Oh. And chargelots are dumb units. I hate them.
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On November 29 2011 03:45 K3Nyy wrote:
Protoss allins can be dealt with if you scout and prepare for it.
If you're seriously saying Terran has no defender's advantage, then you've seriously never built a bunker. They have the strongest defender's advantage.
Strong but not cheap as forcefields.
Tanks are just too bad in TvP, only useful in 1/1/1. The main reason is that even if they deal a lot of damage zone, they are too weak against Zealots and deal damage to your own units. They are good to destroy Stalkers, Colossus and Sentrys. The Protoss has simply to build Phenixes and you are in a real disadvantage of mobility and army efficiency.
They are 2 ways to defend properly :
- against a 3/4 Gate Robo all-in, it is pretty much impossible to defend when you have taken your expand. So you have to stay on one base and wait for Medivacs or Ghosts
- for other all-ins, keep one SCV outside your base to scout and be sure when he attacks. Put your VCS in front of the bunkers to prevent Zealots to reach the bunkers, and to make the sentrys use more Forcefields. Basically with good micro, and good multitask, it shouldn't be so hard.
Good luck defeating the Protoss !
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ITT: Terrans complain about TvP while Protoss say PvT is fine, build bunkers
But my opinion, I think you just have to start simcitying like TvZ and hope you have enough marine/marauder to kill the zealots before stalkers break down your depot wall. There is very little defenders advantage in the early game due to warpgate allowing protoss to circumvent your bunker position.
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On November 29 2011 03:37 redbrain wrote:
1) immortals tank alot of splash dmg from tanks
I know I'm bad and everything but couldn't you... micro your tanks?
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Terrans don't use tanks past the 10 minute mark because every protoss unit counters them. If you're using tanks defensively P is gonna blink stalkers around to stall for time while getting charge + storm or colo and you will never be able to safely push protoss without losing half your main (and still probably lose the fight because tanks are so bad).
If you decide not to push with your tanks you will lose every fight 100%.
Meanwhile your army comp will be super marine heavy so splash damage will own you.
tldr: mmm + tank is pretty bad
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If you FE you need about four bunkers to hold off protoss aggression. I lose a lot and I see people lose a lot because I/they only make two or even three and don't hold off / barely hold off the first wave. You need to crush the first wave such that the future waves can trade evenly.
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Haha, what tipped the matchup so much in favor of Protoss recently?
immortal range? EMP? It's surely not cheaper upgrades, they add like 1 unit at the minute 15.
I see an incredible amount of "TvP impossible imba imba help me!!!" while Protoss' threads are like "Is that 1 gate FE really optimal? I dunno, I have only 80% winrate with it" :D
You would be a fool not to admit that TvP looks hard for low level players now. What a fortune reversal this is.
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On November 29 2011 03:37 redbrain wrote:
PS this isn't a balance discussion
I love this. The whole post is just one big balance whine, you even open by calling it a "broken matchup". Adding in this disclaimer changes nothing. Just what are you trying to accomplish by making this thread? If you want help with TvP then make a thread in the strategy section asking for help.
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On November 29 2011 04:08 ZenithM wrote:
Haha, what tipped the matchup so much in favor of Protoss recently?
immortal range? EMP? It's surely not cheaper upgrades, they add like 1 unit at the minute 15.
I see an incredible amount of "TvP impossible imba imba help me!!!" while Protoss' threads are like "Is that 1 gate FE really optimal? I dunno, I have only 80% winrate with it" :D
You would be a fool not to admit that TvP looks hard for low level players now. What a fortune reversal this is.
The upgrade buffs could have had a psychological effect though. Notice how every decent Protoss has been going double forge against T.
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i love how you are focusing on the weaknesses of terran rather than the strengths of terran in TvP
ik im a protoss...i also never allin (believe it or not) but i feel that if terran has 3 bunkers then at least 1 should survive being ff'd to death in the push....also if you think he is going to allin without colossus then build a ton of marines with stim....this weakens the immortals a bit since marines > immortals also marines with stim and kite > zealots (without charge or upgrades)
the only reason i would feel for a P allin like 3/4gate immortal to work vs terran is if the terran went for a greedy expand....like a gasless expand and skimped on bunkers
thats just me, but i dont allin vT because i feel that bunkers are ridiculously good with repair even with ff denying repair if they have 3+ bunkers they will be defended from just about any allin (void rays nonwithstanding but those are a microfest w/marines vs vrs generally)
also, terrans just realize how good your scouting is compared to protoss, 1 scan at the right time you see just about everything the P has...namely nexus timing (if there is one he isnt all inning obviously) and at the same time the T can easily deny P scouting til observers with marines placed in the right areas outside the natural (just run back if a stalker shows up...which would be retarded from the P because he doesnt know if you have marauders or not) in addition to that there is a lull in scouting from P til the first observer is out for P to know if T is doing some sort of allin themselves or playing for a later game, also by denying scouting you deny the bunker count from being known by a P so the P could allin into 4 bunkers and not see the bunkers til he is there at which point its gg (unless he gets a prism and attempts to bypass them...which would just lead to a fairly even fight in the Ts main due to the time for a prism to get there allowing for 1-2 more rounds of terran marine/marauder
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On November 29 2011 04:13 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:08 ZenithM wrote:
Haha, what tipped the matchup so much in favor of Protoss recently?
immortal range? EMP? It's surely not cheaper upgrades, they add like 1 unit at the minute 15.
I see an incredible amount of "TvP impossible imba imba help me!!!" while Protoss' threads are like "Is that 1 gate FE really optimal? I dunno, I have only 80% winrate with it" :D
You would be a fool not to admit that TvP looks hard for low level players now. What a fortune reversal this is. The upgrade buffs could have had a psychological effect though. Notice how every decent Protoss has been going double forge against T.
a lot of P like myself were going double forge long before the "upgrade buff" which all that was was blizzard saying...hey protosses...upgrade your shit....it makes stuff stronger!
also, i do feel that PvT is P favored at the moment but not as ridiculously much as a lot of people are treating it as such i doubt its as bad as when amulet was still in (shouldve been nerfed rather than removed though imo)...however i also feel that terran is by far the least explored race, there are so many good units that T has that get no use whatsoever outside of some allin, the ghost was a unit i saw in beta and went...oh shit...when people start doing shit other than fast cloakshee and start adding in units to their mmmv ball, if they start adding ghosts its going to be a hard matchup and i didnt even consider snipe being used lol just emp on a unit that can be easily obtained (in comparison to the science vessel where it cost a shitton of precious gas lol)
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The "macro mechanic" that saves terran is repairing. You need to have scv's pulled to your bunker as soon as you see they might be attacking. Being able to repair with a large amount of scv's lets terran hang on for an unreal amount of time. It's hard to push with both sentries and immortals to block the repairing, but if that happens.... you're kind of screwed. Unless you went overboard and made 2 + bunkers.
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Protoss could say the exact same thing with late game Terran armies EMP'ing everything with 10 full energy cloaked ghosts.
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hehe hellions actually are the perfect tank for anything the toss has against mech (archons do laughable damage on hellions, by the way). The problem though is tanks do almost no damage against everything the toss has. And the thing they do damage against can blink right on a tank so having one tank is no protection. So marauders are considered better because more mobile and no range disadvantage against toss, just slightly more supply taking.
And mech works against toss, but you need the know how. Always taking workers with you and always replace the workers, always repair, always change the map to your advantage with empty bunkers (empty bunkers aren't targeted and create chokepoints for only 25 minerals). Thors destroy air from toss if its stacked. Always build rebuild the units you will need (thats the hard part) and well your productions buildings cost 200/125 and you need tons and tons of them.
Its hard to play, but a toss can't win a straight up engagement unless they go for carriers. Only chance they have is to get you out of position or attack your bases. Anyway mech is just on another level of decision making, compared to any other play style. But it works even against toss after the tank damage nerf. But you have to go 4-5 base, to fund your production.
And i like worker rushes not only terran can do it. Basically you tell your opponent, played a bit risky, well let me show you cut to much around the corners. I like to punish muta going zerg that way as toss x3.
PS: bio is an aggressive strat, of course you lack defenses there, because you conter to defend. At best at a point where the opponent can't punish you for it by marching through your front door trying a base trade.
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On November 29 2011 04:14 LXR wrote:
The "macro mechanic" that saves terran is repairing. You need to have scv's pulled to your bunker as soon as you see they might be attacking. Being able to repair with a large amount of scv's lets terran hang on for an unreal amount of time. It's hard to push with both sentries and immortals to block the repairing, but if that happens.... you're kind of screwed. Unless you went overboard and made 2 + bunkers.
MC-style 6 gate is almost impossible to hold if he doesn't mess up sentry control. Look up the MC v MVP game on Tal Darim at Providence. MVP couldn't hold with 5 bunkers. (Granted, one wasn't positioned very well, but still)
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There are a 2 primary reasons why Protoss is doing well late game vs terran.
1) Warp gates (terran has to win eveyr single battle vs toss since they can rebuild faster).
2) Terrans cant use the gas income the get when they have more than 6-7 active geysers. Toss can always make HT.
However I feel like ravens might be a solution to reason 2 and to some extent reason 1.
Using upgraded turrets can block the way for chargelots (increasing defenders advantage).
Pdd is decent against stalkers.
3) Seeker missile should be pretyt good vs a 2 food toss army (cus of splash).
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I think defensive planetaries are pretty strong late game, that's pretty much everything terran needs for it. What really bothers me is this insane warpgate that is better than normal gateway and the fact protoss can chronoboost forge upgrades (R I D I C O L O U S). These are the reasons right now terrans are having an hard time. Protoss players have learnt to defend all the early game stuff with FE builds and now they just have no problem dealing with the matchup anymore.
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And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance.
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On November 29 2011 04:16 Hider wrote:
There are a 2 primary reasons why Protoss is doing well late game vs terran.
1) Warp gates (terran has to win eveyr single battle vs toss since they can rebuild faster).
2) Terrans cant use the gas income the get when they have more than 6-7 active geysers. Toss can always make HT.
However I feel like ravens might be a solution to reason 2 and to some extent reason 1.
Using upgraded turrets can block the way for chargelots (increasing defenders advantage).
Pdd is decent against stalkers.
3) Seeker missile should be pretyt good vs a 2 food toss army (cus of splash).
Ravens would be decent if they didn't get feedbacked by HT, honestly all their spells have such a short range that feedbacking a raven is ridiculously easy.
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On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance.
You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right?
Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now.
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On November 29 2011 04:20 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right? Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now.
When I say prolevel I'm not talking about the opinion of players, I'm talking about pure numbers from tournaments. Idra still things Zerg can't win ZvP because all the units are trash.
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On November 29 2011 04:16 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:14 LXR wrote:
The "macro mechanic" that saves terran is repairing. You need to have scv's pulled to your bunker as soon as you see they might be attacking. Being able to repair with a large amount of scv's lets terran hang on for an unreal amount of time. It's hard to push with both sentries and immortals to block the repairing, but if that happens.... you're kind of screwed. Unless you went overboard and made 2 + bunkers. MC-style 6 gate is almost impossible to hold if he doesn't mess up sentry control. Look up the MC v MVP game on Tal Darim at Providence. MVP couldn't hold with 5 bunkers. (Granted, one wasn't positioned very well, but still)
Bad example. MVp made mistakes. He shouldn't try to block with suply deps. He should have had medis out as well. You can definitely hold it of if you play correctly.
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On November 29 2011 04:16 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:14 LXR wrote:
The "macro mechanic" that saves terran is repairing. You need to have scv's pulled to your bunker as soon as you see they might be attacking. Being able to repair with a large amount of scv's lets terran hang on for an unreal amount of time. It's hard to push with both sentries and immortals to block the repairing, but if that happens.... you're kind of screwed. Unless you went overboard and made 2 + bunkers. MC-style 6 gate is almost impossible to hold if he doesn't mess up sentry control. Look up the MC v MVP game on Tal Darim at Providence. MVP couldn't hold with 5 bunkers. (Granted, one wasn't positioned very well, but still)
You mean the game MVP went fast third with double eng. bays? Maybe not the best example.
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On November 29 2011 04:21 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:20 S_SienZ wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right? Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now. When I say prolevel I'm not talking about the opinion of players, I'm talking about pure numbers from tournaments. Idra still things Zerg can't win ZvP because all the units are trash.
edit to avoid insane drama
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I'm a mid diamond Terran on EU and I'm also having terrible streak vs Pr0toss atm. I got nothing against their allins, this can be scouted and defended. What I'm losing most to recently is a camping Pr0toss, who defends harrassment properly(whats the big deal, they got warpins....) and moves out with 3-3 at 200 food. That army just won't die regardless of what Terran has, even if T hits his EMP's toss will just throw few FF's and run away...And usually if the game comes to 200 vs 200 even if T can crush Pr0tos's army, it will be back within few seconds. 20 3-3 chargelots insta warpin.....My worst nightmare 
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On November 29 2011 04:20 Grndr101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:16 Hider wrote:
There are a 2 primary reasons why Protoss is doing well late game vs terran.
1) Warp gates (terran has to win eveyr single battle vs toss since they can rebuild faster).
2) Terrans cant use the gas income the get when they have more than 6-7 active geysers. Toss can always make HT.
However I feel like ravens might be a solution to reason 2 and to some extent reason 1.
Using upgraded turrets can block the way for chargelots (increasing defenders advantage).
Pdd is decent against stalkers.
3) Seeker missile should be pretyt good vs a 2 food toss army (cus of splash).
Ravens would be decent if they didn't get feedbacked by HT, honestly all their spells have such a short range that feedbacking a raven is ridiculously easy.
Thats true. However most of the time the toss player will keep their HT in the back (to avoid getting emped). I guess this might become a micro war of not getting your Ravens too close to the toss HT, and if the ht get too close, you can try and emp them. But i kinda fear that the toss might get the better end of that.
Anyway if ravens are not really viable, i guess tvp lategame is definitely broken. Right now the terran has to win every battle late game, and if he loses (which he often will, cus of emp nerf) he loses the game. Toss can constantly tech switch and terran has to react perfectly all the time.
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This is the product of the meta game shifting to pushing many of the terran builds that were simply to greedy. 1 rax fast expand base off only marines, bunkers that shifts to 4 rax with upgrades and medivacs. How long did terrans expect this build to last before protoss cracked it open? Do you see protoss expanding, relying on photon cannons and then complaining when fast drops destory them? How many terrans fly their factory around, using it for scouting? Do tanks and hellions not work because they are bad or because every terran using their factory as the most expensive scout in the game? Did you think your army of teir 1 and 1.5 units + support were going to last the entire game vs everything ground unit the protoss has?
Also, as a protoss, seige tanks scare the shit out of me. I know terrans feel they are crap, but they might have a place in the match up. I don't think terrans can use them as a back bone, but they do make a protoss think twice before pushing. Much like the immortal, they might not have a long term place in the army, but they might have a roll for a little while.
But having been on the other end of some really abusive terran builds, I can't help but think this is just your hard match up. I get SMASHED by zerg about 3 out of 5 games. But in every replay I can see where I messed up. I don't think zerg is broken, just hard at my level of skill.
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On November 29 2011 04:16 aTnClouD wrote:
I think defensive planetaries are pretty strong late game, that's pretty much everything terran needs for it. What really bothers me is this insane warpgate that is better than normal gateway and the fact protoss can chronoboost forge upgrades (R I D I C O L O U S). These are the reasons right now terrans are having an hard time. Protoss players have learnt to defend all the early game stuff with FE builds and now they just have no problem dealing with the matchup anymore.
Defensive planetaries can only work if the planteries protect your expansions and your main at the same time (like at shakuras, shattered.
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On November 29 2011 04:22 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:21 Lorch wrote:On November 29 2011 04:20 S_SienZ wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right? Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now. When I say prolevel I'm not talking about the opinion of players, I'm talking about pure numbers from tournaments. Idra still things Zerg can't win ZvP because all the units are trash. doesn't mean everyone is as dumb and biased as idra when it comes to speaking about game balance
Pros make complaints about balance all the damn time, most of the time they are contradicting each other and end up being wrong anyway. You think there are no pro Protoss players out there who would disagree with what you say? I'm sure there are plenty, there are probably even some Terran too.
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On November 29 2011 04:22 Endrew wrote:I'm a mid diamond Terran on EU and I'm also having terrible streak vs Pr0toss atm. I got nothing against their allins, this can be scouted and defended. What I'm losing most to recently is a camping Pr0toss, who defends harrassment properly(whats the big deal, they got warpins....) and moves out with 3-3 at 200 food. That army just won't die regardless of what Terran has, even if T hits his EMP's toss will just throw few FF's and run away...And usually if the game comes to 200 vs 200 even if T can crush Pr0tos's army, it will be back within few seconds. 20 3-3 chargelots insta warpin.....My worst nightmare
uhhhhhh......if the T hits his EMP's the toss wont have any FF -_____-
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On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance.
You are so clueless.. sounds like you have no idea what has happened in the matchup in past month. Go watch some recent pro level games before spreading such words.
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For the longest time I have thought TvP was horrible and it kept me out of masters. Try the sky terran thread and build a planetary at your natural. I hated using bio vs T3 protoss it made no sense what so ever. The sky terran build allows you to just chill at your base and easily harass the protoss to death. If it ever comes down to base trade you will definitely have the advantage being your nat is a planetary and that you can lift off buildings. You will have a surplus of minerals going straight air which allows you to do the "late game" terran and mass orbitals around midgame! , but instead of orbitals you can also use those minerals to spam planetaries all over the map. It's really solid and you can defend anything that you see so far in diamond to mid masters. GL and hope i see some more sky terrans out there ^^
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On November 29 2011 04:20 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right? Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now.
I mean, it's pretty normal that T has at some point a tough time, given that it was always easy for them before that. Korean terrans barely practiced any TvP for quite a long time because they erased Protoss from the GSL with 1/1/1 and various one base all ins, doesn't really develop the matchup for them.
At low levels on the other hand, it seems to be heavily Protoss favored, weirdly enough, and I don't really know how Blizzard can fix it, except nerfing Protoss to oblivion again.
What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess
What I would say though, and what most terrans don't realise, is that at 200/200, drops become effective again because Protoss doesn't have warp ins anymore. Just drop everywhere, you will do damage.
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On November 29 2011 04:24 Plansix wrote:
This is the product of the meta game shifting to pushing many of the terran builds that were simply to greedy. 1 rax fast expand base off only marines, bunkers that shifts to 4 rax with upgrades and medivacs. How long did terrans expect this build to last before protoss cracked it open? Do you see protoss expanding, relying on photon cannons and then complaining when fast drops destory them? How many terrans fly their factory around, using it for scouting? Do tanks and hellions not work because they are bad or because every terran using their factory as the most expensive scout in the game? Did you think your army of teir 1 and 1.5 units + support were going to last the entire game vs everything ground unit the protoss has?
Also, as a protoss, seige tanks scare the shit out of me. I know terrans feel they are crap, but they might have a place in the match up. I don't think terrans can use them as a back bone, but they do make a protoss think twice before pushing. Much like the immortal, they might not have a long term place in the army, but they might have a roll for a little while.
But having been on the other end of some really abusive terran builds, I can't help but think this is just your hard match up. I get SMASHED by zerg about 3 out of 5 games. But in every replay I can see where I messed up. I don't think zerg is broken, just hard at my level of skill.
=.=
Seriously? Of all the things in the Terran's arsenal, you're complaining about the 1 rax expand?
I can accept Zerg taking a faster expo than every race simply because that's how their production works, but Protoss even has a freaking guide in the strategy section on how to go Nexus 1st and how to react to every possible scout intel.
I love you you're talking as if Ts haven't tried mech vs P before.
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On November 29 2011 04:24 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:20 Grndr101 wrote:On November 29 2011 04:16 Hider wrote:
There are a 2 primary reasons why Protoss is doing well late game vs terran.
1) Warp gates (terran has to win eveyr single battle vs toss since they can rebuild faster).
2) Terrans cant use the gas income the get when they have more than 6-7 active geysers. Toss can always make HT.
However I feel like ravens might be a solution to reason 2 and to some extent reason 1.
Using upgraded turrets can block the way for chargelots (increasing defenders advantage).
Pdd is decent against stalkers.
3) Seeker missile should be pretyt good vs a 2 food toss army (cus of splash).
Ravens would be decent if they didn't get feedbacked by HT, honestly all their spells have such a short range that feedbacking a raven is ridiculously easy. Thats true. However most of the time the toss player will keep their HT in the back (to avoid getting emped). I guess this might become a micro war of not getting your Ravens too close to the toss HT, and if the ht get too close, you can try and emp them. But i kinda fear that the toss might get the better end of that. Anyway if ravens are not really viable, i guess tvp lategame is definitely broken. Right now the terran has to win every battle late game, and if he loses (which he often will, cus of emp nerf) he loses the game. Toss can constantly tech switch and terran has to react perfectly all the time.
Wait, both PDD and turrets have a 180 timer on them. That is 3 in game minutes. Is there any reason for the raven to be traveling with the army. Why would't the PDD and turrets be placed in areas that the terran wanted to fall back too. So many times I chase terrans with my zealots and stalkers and a turret and PDD with be the idea place to retreat to and re-enforce. Also, turrets are no joke.
Protoss have started doing the same thing. To keep their HTs safe, they leave a few back to storm as if they need to fall back. The raven does not need to be part of the bio ball.
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I agree pvt is a boring matchup with really powerful spells that can turn the tide really fast which has resulted in another thread about pvt passivity. We can only hope for HotS at this moment in time.
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Everytime I open these TvP threads, I wonder why I can't beat terran if everyone is having so much trouble. I play at a high master level and I get absolutely destroyed by terran.
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On November 29 2011 04:28 HikariPrime wrote:
For the longest time I have thought TvP was horrible and it kept me out of masters. Try the sky terran thread and build a planetary at your natural. I hated using bio vs T3 protoss it made no sense what so ever. The sky terran build allows you to just chill at your base and easily harass the protoss to death. If it ever comes down to base trade you will definitely have the advantage being your nat is a planetary and that you can lift off buildings. You will have a surplus of minerals going straight air which allows you to do the "late game" terran and mass orbitals around midgame! , but instead of orbitals you can also use those minerals to spam planetaries all over the map. It's really solid and you can defend anything that you see so far in diamond to mid masters. GL and hope i see some more sky terrans out there ^^
as a P the first time i saw that i didnt think that P had anything that could deal with it, especially since raven bc lategame is ridiculously good and wrecks any composition P has to deal with it (yamato rapes carriers/void rays/motherships)
however there is a weak period for the T, if the P can allin right before the pf finishes the T has no units other than 2 maybe 3 banshees and a handful of marines....so its a base trade where the P can then warp in the needed 4-6 stalkers at home to deal with any banshees that werent at the Ts base, basically P can kill that build early...though that is the only hope that P has to deal with it imo
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I dont think there is anything wrong with this matchup at all scout properly and you wont get caught out, its pretty much the answer to all your worries.
scout.
I saw someone say that bunkers are strong, but not as cheap as force fields. No they are not as cheap as force fields on the straight up costs however a protoss with more sentries is a weaker protoss push.
scout.
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the problem is that warp in is a game breaking mechanic that should never have been in starcraft 2.
also toss has THE perfect gas dump in ht/archons. i lol when people thought the gas decrease for ghosts was a buff when it was actually a nerf. ravens could potentially be a gas dump that terrans haven't utilized yet, but it doesn't even come close to ht/archons.
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On November 29 2011 04:27 unit wrote:
uhhhhhh......if the T hits his EMP's the toss wont have any FF -_____-
GL hitting every single Sentry and HT(since they can throw defensive storms) or preventing Toss from abusing the terrain for his lolossi(chokes, highround, etc) and making you not want to engage.
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On November 29 2011 04:29 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:24 Plansix wrote:
This is the product of the meta game shifting to pushing many of the terran builds that were simply to greedy. 1 rax fast expand base off only marines, bunkers that shifts to 4 rax with upgrades and medivacs. How long did terrans expect this build to last before protoss cracked it open? Do you see protoss expanding, relying on photon cannons and then complaining when fast drops destory them? How many terrans fly their factory around, using it for scouting? Do tanks and hellions not work because they are bad or because every terran using their factory as the most expensive scout in the game? Did you think your army of teir 1 and 1.5 units + support were going to last the entire game vs everything ground unit the protoss has?
Also, as a protoss, seige tanks scare the shit out of me. I know terrans feel they are crap, but they might have a place in the match up. I don't think terrans can use them as a back bone, but they do make a protoss think twice before pushing. Much like the immortal, they might not have a long term place in the army, but they might have a roll for a little while.
But having been on the other end of some really abusive terran builds, I can't help but think this is just your hard match up. I get SMASHED by zerg about 3 out of 5 games. But in every replay I can see where I messed up. I don't think zerg is broken, just hard at my level of skill. =.= Seriously? Of all the things in the Terran's arsenal, you're complaining about the 1 rax expand? I can accept Zerg taking a faster expo than every race simply because that's how their production works, but Protoss even has a freaking guide in the strategy section on how to go Nexus 1st and how to react to every possible scout intel. I love you you're talking as if Ts haven't tried mech vs P before.
I've seen countless nexus first being rolled by a reactive marine scv all in. I would say that as far as openings go, 1 rax gasless FE is ahead economically of 1 gate FE while also being safer.
Problem in TvP is not openings obviously, it's the midgame turtle for upgrades and lategame mass warpgates.
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As a lowly-diamond toss, I find myself envious of the Terran defender's advantage. Mass repair of bunkers early game and, late game, of PFs make me hesitant to attack Ts. Also, your SCVs are tough. Seeing as you have mules, don't be afraid to pull large amounts of SCVs for repair or to tank damage against toss attacks--especially against one-base all-ins or 4/6 gate timings off of 2 bases. If you have 3+ bunkers I find that I have to have the right unit comp, good FFs, and that I have to pull back and re-engage at just the right times to break your Terran defense.
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On November 29 2011 04:14 Flonomenalz wrote:
Protoss could say the exact same thing with late game Terran armies EMP'ing everything with 10 full energy cloaked ghosts.
I'd really wish that, for once people would drop this stuff about EMP...
EMP takes off (with the exception of Archons) 50% hp max and against Zealots it does very very little since they have more armour hp and are far more likely to have armour upgrades than shield, along with having innate armour.
So while a Protoss army can take EMPs and live if a T takes a full storm their army is basically dead. If you engage in one spot where you don't have the space to micro away from storms and P lands one (assuming everything else in game is equal) it's basically gg. Unless T facerolls a P army they can't convert that push in to severe economic damage as a use every gate chargelot warp in will stop the remnants of a T army in its tracks.
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Im a zerg player but i find this matchup so incredibly boring to watch because there's no defenders advantage especially for terran. Its just 2 big blobs kiting and A-moving. Do terran/toss players enjoy this matchup? I mean i enjoyed watching it in bw so it cant be just that im a zerg player.
I think if tanks are buffed it wouldn't change the balance except maybe the 111. Tanks 1 shot lings and blings anyway so it wont affect tvz too much and they are really weak vs late game toss.
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On November 29 2011 04:35 Endrew wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:27 unit wrote:
uhhhhhh......if the T hits his EMP's the toss wont have any FF -_____- GL hitting every single Sentry and HT(since they can throw defensive storms) or preventing Toss from abusing the terrain for his lolossi(chokes, highround, etc) and making you not want to engage.
no, i was just pointing out that he said he hit all of his emps...which was the bolded part of the quote that you removed when quoting my post
also if you have 8-10 ghosts it isnt that hard to have an emp spread that hits all the sentries....also...lolossi? colossus sucks vs terran due to how easy it is to get 12-16~ vikings and just rape them before they have any impact on the battle whatsoever (if the P blinks forward to try to snipe them then your army is right under it stimmed and melting their stalkers -_- ofc thats if you engage, if the P engages the positioning should favor the P due to him picking the place to fight)
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On November 29 2011 04:36 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:29 S_SienZ wrote:On November 29 2011 04:24 Plansix wrote:
This is the product of the meta game shifting to pushing many of the terran builds that were simply to greedy. 1 rax fast expand base off only marines, bunkers that shifts to 4 rax with upgrades and medivacs. How long did terrans expect this build to last before protoss cracked it open? Do you see protoss expanding, relying on photon cannons and then complaining when fast drops destory them? How many terrans fly their factory around, using it for scouting? Do tanks and hellions not work because they are bad or because every terran using their factory as the most expensive scout in the game? Did you think your army of teir 1 and 1.5 units + support were going to last the entire game vs everything ground unit the protoss has?
Also, as a protoss, seige tanks scare the shit out of me. I know terrans feel they are crap, but they might have a place in the match up. I don't think terrans can use them as a back bone, but they do make a protoss think twice before pushing. Much like the immortal, they might not have a long term place in the army, but they might have a roll for a little while.
But having been on the other end of some really abusive terran builds, I can't help but think this is just your hard match up. I get SMASHED by zerg about 3 out of 5 games. But in every replay I can see where I messed up. I don't think zerg is broken, just hard at my level of skill. =.= Seriously? Of all the things in the Terran's arsenal, you're complaining about the 1 rax expand? I can accept Zerg taking a faster expo than every race simply because that's how their production works, but Protoss even has a freaking guide in the strategy section on how to go Nexus 1st and how to react to every possible scout intel. I love you you're talking as if Ts haven't tried mech vs P before. I've seen countless nexus first being rolled by a reactive marine scv all in. I would say that as far as openings go, 1 rax gasless FE is ahead economically of 1 gate FE while also being safer. Problem in TvP is not openings obviously, it's the midgame turtle for upgrades and lategame mass warpgates.
I share your views in this post. In fact, iirc, in the Nexus 1st guide it did mention that the most deadly response from T would be a marine SCV all-in. I just feel that it's lame that T has to either expand slower or go completely all-in like that.
It was also mostly a knee-jerk reaction to that guy complaining about the 1 rax FE. Throughout beta people kept complaining about 1 base cheese, then people complained about 1-1-1, so it just pisses me off when people complain about even a staple econ opener =.=
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On November 29 2011 04:29 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:24 Plansix wrote:
This is the product of the meta game shifting to pushing many of the terran builds that were simply to greedy. 1 rax fast expand base off only marines, bunkers that shifts to 4 rax with upgrades and medivacs. How long did terrans expect this build to last before protoss cracked it open? Do you see protoss expanding, relying on photon cannons and then complaining when fast drops destory them? How many terrans fly their factory around, using it for scouting? Do tanks and hellions not work because they are bad or because every terran using their factory as the most expensive scout in the game? Did you think your army of teir 1 and 1.5 units + support were going to last the entire game vs everything ground unit the protoss has?
Also, as a protoss, seige tanks scare the shit out of me. I know terrans feel they are crap, but they might have a place in the match up. I don't think terrans can use them as a back bone, but they do make a protoss think twice before pushing. Much like the immortal, they might not have a long term place in the army, but they might have a roll for a little while.
But having been on the other end of some really abusive terran builds, I can't help but think this is just your hard match up. I get SMASHED by zerg about 3 out of 5 games. But in every replay I can see where I messed up. I don't think zerg is broken, just hard at my level of skill. =.= Seriously? Of all the things in the Terran's arsenal, you're complaining about the 1 rax expand? I can accept Zerg taking a faster expo than every race simply because that's how their production works, but Protoss even has a freaking guide in the strategy section on how to go Nexus 1st and how to react to every possible scout intel. I love you you're talking as if Ts haven't tried mech vs P before.
As a protoss, I never go nexus first unless I want to lose the game. I do not rely on my opponents being bad or not being willing to cut workers to kill me. At best I go one gate, core, nexus and that only if I see the terran expand. Nexus firstis just asking to be rolled over by good scouting and a solid all-in.
As a protoss, seige tanks are scary as hell. I don't care if some terran mech is horrible, I have a healthy respect for seige tanks. Some terrans think the immortal is amazing. To me, it is a dumb, slow, paperweigh that better win me the game because is the slowest unit in my army and its not making it home if I have to run.
It is easy to see how your units are flawed when you are the one using them.
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On November 29 2011 04:40 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:36 ZenithM wrote:On November 29 2011 04:29 S_SienZ wrote:On November 29 2011 04:24 Plansix wrote:
This is the product of the meta game shifting to pushing many of the terran builds that were simply to greedy. 1 rax fast expand base off only marines, bunkers that shifts to 4 rax with upgrades and medivacs. How long did terrans expect this build to last before protoss cracked it open? Do you see protoss expanding, relying on photon cannons and then complaining when fast drops destory them? How many terrans fly their factory around, using it for scouting? Do tanks and hellions not work because they are bad or because every terran using their factory as the most expensive scout in the game? Did you think your army of teir 1 and 1.5 units + support were going to last the entire game vs everything ground unit the protoss has?
Also, as a protoss, seige tanks scare the shit out of me. I know terrans feel they are crap, but they might have a place in the match up. I don't think terrans can use them as a back bone, but they do make a protoss think twice before pushing. Much like the immortal, they might not have a long term place in the army, but they might have a roll for a little while.
But having been on the other end of some really abusive terran builds, I can't help but think this is just your hard match up. I get SMASHED by zerg about 3 out of 5 games. But in every replay I can see where I messed up. I don't think zerg is broken, just hard at my level of skill. =.= Seriously? Of all the things in the Terran's arsenal, you're complaining about the 1 rax expand? I can accept Zerg taking a faster expo than every race simply because that's how their production works, but Protoss even has a freaking guide in the strategy section on how to go Nexus 1st and how to react to every possible scout intel. I love you you're talking as if Ts haven't tried mech vs P before. I've seen countless nexus first being rolled by a reactive marine scv all in. I would say that as far as openings go, 1 rax gasless FE is ahead economically of 1 gate FE while also being safer. Problem in TvP is not openings obviously, it's the midgame turtle for upgrades and lategame mass warpgates. I share your views in this post. In fact, iirc, in the Nexus 1st guide it did mention that the most deadly response from T would be a marine SCV all-in. I just feel that it's lame that T has to either expand slower or go completely all-in like that. It was also mostly a knee-jerk reaction to that guy complaining about the 1 rax FE. Throughout beta people kept complaining about 1 base cheese, then people complained about 1-1-1, so it just pisses me off when people complain about even a staple econ opener =.=
Builds like that are going to exist though. If a zerg goes for 3 quick expansion off of a pool and zero lings, you need to respond with some pretty amazing agression. Some builds are so greedy that it going all in is the best way to respond. It is a sign that the build is bad and should be punished.
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On November 29 2011 04:34 SoKHo wrote:
Everytime I open these TvP threads, I wonder why I can't beat terran if everyone is having so much trouble. I play at a high master level and I get absolutely destroyed by terran.
That's because they play at a such lower level (in this case EU diamond, which I would say is around platinum KR), their metagame and game decision making is not the same I think and therefore shouldn't really be too much effort put into, but that's just my thoughts.
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You seem to Imply that late game P composition is OP and how hard to stop every unit P has. But I can write same thread. (about how mmm is most cost/dps is ridiculous ESP with Emp)...it's just difficulties you have to deal with. I see this as cry thread...All that you wrote could be dealt with, only one thing you right about is tanks... If you look at winrates it's the Protoss who ought to cry, so the problem is Not with matchup it's with you
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On November 29 2011 04:39 unit wrote:
no, i was just pointing out that he said he hit all of his emps...which was the bolded part of the quote that you removed when quoting my post
also if you have 8-10 ghosts it isnt that hard to have an emp spread that hits all the sentries....also...lolossi? colossus sucks vs terran due to how easy it is to get 12-16~ vikings and just rape them before they have any impact on the battle whatsoever (if the P blinks forward to try to snipe them then your army is right under it stimmed and melting their stalkers -_- ofc thats if you engage, if the P engages the positioning should favor the P due to him picking the place to fight)
Usually your ghosts will die long before they can throw those emps, unless you're a korean pr0 with 300 APM. Also, pls show me a diamond toss who plays pure Lolossi as his only AoE at the time when T can have 12-16 Vikings....BTW. do you have any idea how many Vikings can T have when Toss goes for 2 base 2 lolossi push?
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I feel the exact opposite as OP. As a NA Diamnd Terran, I feel that Protoss has a much harder time in this matchup than Terran because Terran's early and midgame armies are so much stronger.
In the early game, Protoss can't touch a Terran that scouts well and knows how to counter the few pressure/all-in builds that are actually dangerous from Protoss.
In the Midgame, if both players are macroing properly and neither has don damage to the other, Terran has the opportunity to get a huge supply advantage while upgrading. Terrans can easily abuse this by dropping and taking bases. If Protoss turtles on 2 base, you just completely outexpand them and it's gg, even if you trade inefficiently in the late game because you're production is just sooo much better. If they take a 3rd, you drop in 1 base, force warp-ins, and then drop in the other bse, and there is literally nothing Protoss can do but pull probes and pray that their army waddles over there before the base is utterly destroyed.
Late game even, I feel the dynamic is pretty balanced, since both sides need to control their armies perfectly. If the sentries/HT's aren't spread perfectly, EMP will wipe them out, even post nerf. if Terran doesn't engage perfectly, Storms/collosus splash will slaughter MMM.
Honestly, I hope the matchup stays where it is. I feel that Protoss has a hard time in the early stages of the game, but as Protoss players get better and better, they will be able to deal.
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To be honest, Terran doesn't have much of a defenders advantage. Then again, most MU with protoss dont have exactly a defenders advantage because protoss can warp units in on the spot. In the late game, you will have many bases and it will be difficult to defend them all. The easy way to fix this is to destroy pylons whenever you see them. Tanks are still viable because most P's usually go collusus voidray, not immortals. Producing immortals will halt the P's unit production of collusus. Viking vounters collusus while your marines and maruaders are destryoing the ground army of the Protoss in theory.
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I'm only high plat, but I win almost all my TvPs. I basically have two builds, both one rax expands.
1) get gas, get 1/2 marines, then tech lab, two mauraders with concussive shells... and push while building an expo on the lowground. That push messes up most tosses. You usually get a stalker or zealot, sometimes a sentry and sometimes even a bunch of probes. often you can get a scout too.
2) no gas one rax. prevent scout. build marines. CC on the high ground. this one's weak to an early stalker push so big maps only and even then maybe only when they scout late.
after you start the CC, build 2 or 3 more rax and AT LEAST 3 bunkers. often 4. depending on map and scout. and pull scvs to repair. that's usually the definative moment in the game. often they'll scout your FE and try to 3-gate/robo you. if you hold it, you have a huge advantage. marines are great. don't just get marauders.
meanwhile get stim, build a fact, then a starport, then a reactor on the fact, swap, build 2 medvacs and push again. either straight into the front or use one medvac to drop and distract while the main group runs in and snipes a nexus.
if you still haven't won move into vikings for colo and ghosts for ht / everything. good EMP, kiting, targetting immortals or colos, etc.
I do drops but only as a way to distract them or pull their army away. Also from watching GSL, very few terrans play a drop focused game against toss. observers / blink / warp ins are very good at limiting damage from a drop. plus it splits your army and leaves you open to a huge power move up the middle. I see it as the Polt / Puma / Thorzain TvP style
to me its all about overpowering them with macro. I sometimes lose in the late late game but that's only cuz I can't quite pull off the Puma / Thorzain level of late game army control. when they have lots of HT and colo and archon, its just hard to win. but i think that's more a problem of letting them macro earlier on.
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just because you suck in PvT doesn't mean PvT is imbalanced.
Winrates Prove that for a long time, statistics have yet to fall below 50% in PvT (Which they have not ever since release, ridiculous!)
I have and always sucked in PvZ for example even when it was protoss favored...even if winning, never felt comfortable.
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On November 29 2011 04:36 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:14 Flonomenalz wrote:
Protoss could say the exact same thing with late game Terran armies EMP'ing everything with 10 full energy cloaked ghosts. I'd really wish that, for once people would drop this stuff about EMP... EMP takes off (with the exception of Archons) 50% hp max and against Zealots it does very very little since they have more armour hp and are far more likely to have armour upgrades than shield, along with having innate armour. So while a Protoss army can take EMPs and live if a T takes a full storm their army is basically dead. If you engage in one spot where you don't have the space to micro away from storms and P lands one (assuming everything else in game is equal) it's basically gg. Unless T facerolls a P army they can't convert that push in to severe economic damage as a use every gate chargelot warp in will stop the remnants of a T army in its tracks.
It is far easier to get the full effect of the EMP that it is to get the full effect of the storm. For a storm to do full damage, the terran units must remain under it for 4 ingame second. As stimed marines and marauders move faster than any other ground unit with the exception of zerglings and hellions, it is difficult to to get the "prefect storm". This is compunded by the fact that the high templar moves the same speed as a thor. Also, with zealot charge, storm does damage to protoss units as well, which have a habit of charging into the AOE.
Both spells are very effective at their given task. But if I think terrans would be just as sad if protoss had a spell that did exactly 40% damage to all terran units instantly.
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On November 29 2011 04:49 Endrew wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:39 unit wrote:
no, i was just pointing out that he said he hit all of his emps...which was the bolded part of the quote that you removed when quoting my post
also if you have 8-10 ghosts it isnt that hard to have an emp spread that hits all the sentries....also...lolossi? colossus sucks vs terran due to how easy it is to get 12-16~ vikings and just rape them before they have any impact on the battle whatsoever (if the P blinks forward to try to snipe them then your army is right under it stimmed and melting their stalkers -_- ofc thats if you engage, if the P engages the positioning should favor the P due to him picking the place to fight) Usually your ghosts will die long before they can throw those emps, unless you're a korean pr0 with 300 APM. Also, pls show me a diamond toss who plays pure Lolossi as his only AoE at the time when T can have 12-16 Vikings....BTW. do you have any idea how many Vikings can T have when Toss goes for 2 base 2 lolossi push?
sorry, but colossi are a unit that get better with numbers, they're fairly weak at 2...all you need to do to wreck them is get a few units into position behind the P army and boom dead "lolossi"
also, sorry i dont play vs diamonds so i really wouldnt know that you guys arent capable of dealing with this stuff...all of my practice partners are high masters/gm so im used to the terrans being able to nail their emps -___- also 300apm isnt that hard to get, if you go by sc2gears at least, blizz really fucked up the ingame apm thing...that should read eap45s
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Terran start losing to Protoss and their heads fall off. Seriously make a bunker and stop complaining. Secondly who makes tanks against protoss other then to do a timing push before the 10 min mark? This is why a diamond player should not be able to comment on balance.
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totally agree with OP im at diamond level too i beat 90% of TvT and maybe 60-70% TvZ but I lose to almost every protoss player. Only time i win if protoss plays sloppy, and it feels like I have to either kill or cripple the protoss heavily in midgame or i stand no chance to mass zealots, HT and archons.
The thing is its very easy to distribute your money on that composition since zealots are only minerals and HT are mostly gas, and the army operates best with just 1a (if he stays on zealot & archon) which is why i think for diamond level protoss has huge advantage because the terran player have to:
1) scout what composition protoss is going for
2) drop harass constantly
3) not get caught in FF
4) stutter step
5) carpet bomb emp
maybe the matchup is balance at higher levels but at diamond im struggeling, I also find the matchup kinda boring since in almost every battle one side is winning by huge margin, its almost never equal trades. So it often boils down to one quick battle and gg
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On November 29 2011 04:16 aTnClouD wrote:
I think defensive planetaries are pretty strong late game, that's pretty much everything terran needs for it. What really bothers me is this insane warpgate that is better than normal gateway and the fact protoss can chronoboost forge upgrades (R I D I C O L O U S). These are the reasons right now terrans are having an hard time. Protoss players have learnt to defend all the early game stuff with FE builds and now they just have no problem dealing with the matchup anymore.
Completely agree with everything you said, regarding the upgrades part specificly i always find amusing when a caster points out that battle X or Y was lost because protoss is sitting on 3-3 while terran is "only" 2-1 or 2-2 or something, im always like O´RLY?
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to be honest, it seems like you are talking about balance in the whole of your original post and then proceed to tell it's not a balance discussion :O.
Anyway, I don't think anything good or useful will come out of this thread for you. Would probably be better to just post in the strategy section to ask for some help on your TvP.
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On November 29 2011 04:08 ZenithM wrote:
Haha, what tipped the matchup so much in favor of Protoss recently?
immortal range? EMP? It's surely not cheaper upgrades, they add like 1 unit at the minute 15.
I see an incredible amount of "TvP impossible imba imba help me!!!" while Protoss' threads are like "Is that 1 gate FE really optimal? I dunno, I have only 80% winrate with it" :D
You would be a fool not to admit that TvP looks hard for low level players now. What a fortune reversal this is.
the mu was always toss favored outside of the 1/1/1, which toss players have been slowly figuring out.
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It's a tough match-up, simply balling up and a-moving means you will lose every time. The best advice I can give for TvP is to always try to get the best possible concave/flank, it makes for an enormous difference. Also, bunkers are necessary, as is pulling SCV's.
Sadly, with the state of TvP in Korea as of late you aren't allowed to complain as a terran player here.
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Just wanna get one thing clear here: Tanks suck. Tanks suck so bad I switched to Zerg.
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On November 29 2011 03:59 FreudianTrip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 03:37 redbrain wrote:
1) immortals tank alot of splash dmg from tanks
I know I'm bad and everything but couldn't you... micro your tanks?
Wait wut...?
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On November 29 2011 05:11 Gemini_19 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 03:59 FreudianTrip wrote:On November 29 2011 03:37 redbrain wrote:
1) immortals tank alot of splash dmg from tanks
I know I'm bad and everything but couldn't you... micro your tanks? Wait wut...?
To be fair, both their statements hardly made any sense.
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Ok, I think the OP is sorely lacking along with 99% of the posts in this thread, and heres why. The OP says helions and micro can deal with chargelots, but helions are utter garbage vs chargelots en mass. Not only will you not have mech upgrades vs 3/3 chargelots, but it takes a large number of hits to even kill a zealot, that your 100 mins would be better spent on a marine which would kill a zealot faster.
As if this were not enough you cannot just warp in 10 helions like the protoss can warp in different tech, you need 5 reactored factories pumping out helions to match the zealot warp ins that are going to be hitting you. If you went bio this is impossible to do because of the time it takes to get up and because you wont have the money to support that many factories, let alone along with your rax.
Many top terran's are having trouble with this lategame composition and clide has even talked about it.
Concerning defenders advantage, the protoss has the upper hand long with aggression. If terran wants to 2 rax pressure for instance, it will not even come close to killing even the greediest of builds like 1 gate FE or even 14 nexus depending on the map. This is because you have to wait 40s or so for your units to walk across the map, by which time your opponent will be able to hold.
In terms of aggression, this disadvantage does not apply to protoss because of warp in. They do not have to walk across the map much as zerg and terran do, but instead can warp in their units right in front of the opponent. This takes away the usual defenders advantage of quick reinforcements, which will usually allow your army to be larger for a few moments because your rounds of units will arrive faster, vs protoss this is no longer the case.
These are just simple facts of the game, not complaints, and need to be thought about.
@Basher, you sound like your just outplaying your opponent, not many people can do the things you described in diamond let alone plat.
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On November 29 2011 04:20 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right? Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now.
hop on the bandwagon why don't you? Double forge was happening long before the 1.4.2 protoss buff. The (recent) buffs aren't what helped protoss, it was TIME (and the immortal buff but that was a patch before). The players finally got over their humps and realized how to play protoss correctly. Some players have been doing it all along, but it hasn't showed until now and I don't think it's because of the patch. The skill gap is closing between all of the races, for a long time it was terran then it was zerg (protoss for a little while with MC and huk in 2010) then terran and now protoss finally. Sure the protoss buff helped, but there was no decrease in research time so the chronoboosting 2 forges isn't something new here.
If anything the immortal buff ruined the 1/1/1 all-in which everyone agreed was cheap, and now that's gone suddenly protoss is OP? As if...
Terrans are still doing fine, it's not like every terran is out of the gsl, if anything this is probably one of the most racially balanced gsl's EVER. The past two MLG's and even IGN was very racially balanced with a zerg, protoss and zerg winning those events.
I think it's worth it to discuss the current metagame but don't just take what ONE pro terran player says as truth. Maybe there is some truth to it, but what I'm asking here is for you to think before you blindly believe something.
With that said I think zealots are extremely strong late game with 3/3 but so are marines. I've been seeing a ton of top gsl terrans going double e-bay just to keep up with the protoss and it seems to work. Plus most terrans win their games by whittling down their opponents by doing timing attacks (and not over extending), doing drops and harassing. To me it kinda feels like protoss can just sit back where terran has to play like a zerg (not that, that's a bad thing).
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On November 29 2011 04:20 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right? Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now.
You mean their win rate dropped to 50% vs protoss? Because the stats from last month do not back up that statement. Protoss got better, better builds came out. Better players got into the GSL and showcased builds that are bad ass. EMP was brought in line with the other spells in the game and requires some level of aim to use.
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On November 29 2011 05:17 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:20 S_SienZ wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right? Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now. hop on the bandwagon why don't you? Double forge was happening long before the 1.4.2 protoss buff. The (recent) buffs aren't what helped protoss, it was TIME (and the immortal buff but that was a patch before). The players finally got over their humps and realized how to play protoss correctly. Some players have been doing it all along, but it hasn't showed until now and I don't think it's because of the patch. The skill gap is closing between all of the races, for a long time it was terran then it was zerg (protoss for a little while with MC and huk in 2010) then terran and now protoss finally. Sure the protoss buff helped, but there was no decrease in research time so the chronoboosting 2 forges isn't something new here. If anything the immortal buff ruined the 1/1/1 all-in which everyone agreed was cheap, and now that's gone suddenly protoss is OP? As if... Terrans are still doing fine, it's not like every terran is out of the gsl, if anything this is probably one of the most racially balanced gsl's EVER. The past two MLG's and even IGN was very racially balanced with a zerg, protoss and zerg winning those events. I think it's worth it to discuss the current metagame but don't just take what ONE pro terran player says as truth. Maybe there is some truth to it, but what I'm asking here is for you to think before you blindly believe something.
=.="' Say something as the everyday casual player, opinion gets dismissed as what happens in "the wooden leagues" don't matter. Cite what pros have said, I'm hoping on the bandwagon. I give up.
I wasn't saying what ClouD said was definite truth. My post was mostly pointing out to the guy who I was replying to that it's not just the low league Terrans that are complaining.
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On November 29 2011 04:58 unit wrote:
sorry, but colossi are a unit that get better with numbers, they're fairly weak at 2...all you need to do to wreck them is get a few units into position behind the P army and boom dead "lolossi"
also, sorry i dont play vs diamonds so i really wouldnt know that you guys arent capable of dealing with this stuff...all of my practice partners are high masters/gm so im used to the terrans being able to nail their emps -___- also 300apm isnt that hard to get, if you go by sc2gears at least, blizz really fucked up the ingame apm thing...that should read eap45s
I believe we're talking about the current state of TvP at diamondish level here  I'm not talking about the balance in general since I know my limits.
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This is seriously a balance whine thread disguised as discussion.
There are things to talk about in this matchup, like why at a high level tournament PvT best of 7 we saw zero games that went past 1 - 2 base all-in's (from both players). But you just talked about why you're having trouble with TvP and covered it up by saying it's a discussion of the matchup, just your discussion only consisted of balance whine.
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cracks me up when people say protoss doesnt have defenders advantage, you do! your warpin is your advantage, its just such a good defenders advantage you can take it with you when you want to do a push also.
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This has nothing to do with TvP balance and everything to do with the whole point of the ladder system. Unless you are at the very top or very bottom of the ladder, you will roughly have a 50% win rate *assuming you have played enough games for it to balance out). That is what the ladder does.
If you have one strong matchup, for example TvZ, then you will have >50% win rate in that matchup. This will increase your MMR and cause you to play vs better players, which will reduce your win rate in one or both of the other matchups. There will be other people who are weaker in TvZ but stronger in TvP.
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On November 29 2011 05:35 hzflank wrote:
This has nothing to do with TvP balance and everything to do with the whole point of the ladder system. Unless you are at the very top or very bottom of the ladder, you will roughly have a 50% win rate *assuming you have played enough games for it to balance out). That is what the ladder does.
If you have one strong matchup, for example TvZ, then you will have >50% win rate in that matchup. This will increase your MMR and cause you to play vs better players, which will reduce your win rate in one or both of the other matchups. There will be other people who are weaker in TvZ but stronger in TvP.
Do you know anybody whose strongest match up is TvP? Between me and my friends that play terran, TvP is our worst match-up. Obviously this is a small sample group so it can't really be considered but it would be interesting to see peoples opinion who have really good TvP.
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On November 29 2011 05:23 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 05:17 emc wrote:On November 29 2011 04:20 S_SienZ wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right? Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now. hop on the bandwagon why don't you? Double forge was happening long before the 1.4.2 protoss buff. The (recent) buffs aren't what helped protoss, it was TIME (and the immortal buff but that was a patch before). The players finally got over their humps and realized how to play protoss correctly. Some players have been doing it all along, but it hasn't showed until now and I don't think it's because of the patch. The skill gap is closing between all of the races, for a long time it was terran then it was zerg (protoss for a little while with MC and huk in 2010) then terran and now protoss finally. Sure the protoss buff helped, but there was no decrease in research time so the chronoboosting 2 forges isn't something new here. If anything the immortal buff ruined the 1/1/1 all-in which everyone agreed was cheap, and now that's gone suddenly protoss is OP? As if... Terrans are still doing fine, it's not like every terran is out of the gsl, if anything this is probably one of the most racially balanced gsl's EVER. The past two MLG's and even IGN was very racially balanced with a zerg, protoss and zerg winning those events. I think it's worth it to discuss the current metagame but don't just take what ONE pro terran player says as truth. Maybe there is some truth to it, but what I'm asking here is for you to think before you blindly believe something. =.="' Say something as the everyday casual player, opinion gets dismissed as what happens in "the wooden leagues" don't matter. Cite what pros have said, I'm hoping on the bandwagon. I give up. I wasn't saying what ClouD said was definite truth. My post was mostly pointing out to the guy who I was replying to that it's not just the low league Terrans that are complaining.
sorry I don't mean to be a dick to you specifically but you're citing one terran who isn't even putting up strong results and even when terran was considered "OP" he wasn't winning anything huge either. I'm not bashing on you, or bashing on cloud here I'm just stating that most of what protoss is doing now, they've only been doing for the past month or so but finally they've been able to crack the PvT match up. Whether the buffs truly did help or whether the protoss players just got smarter, I don't know and neither can cloud. But zealots and double forges and have always been an issue in TvP, it just hasn't been getting the attention it deserves until after several protoss start winning major tournaments and I find that funny
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I think if you use repair + bunkers properly then there is no issue. And you were saying "but when a collosus timming off 2 base hits your choke and you only have 3 vikings... " then yes you would probably just die, but you should know the collossi count and get vikings accordingly. it is the same in the early game vs terran when we (protoss) have to know if you are committing to an attack with MMM before collossi etc (early game) to see if we need more gateway units or if we can tech and what not.
its the ebb and flow of the game brotha, different points of the games offer timings for the different races :D
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Learn protoss timings. Scout. React.
As a player who has been playing protoss since beta, and at least at the high diamond level, I find TvP to be the easiest match up by far for me. (Started learning Terran and Zerg about 2 months ago for fun).
Always go for an FE but don't be greedy, scout. Use your scv to see if he has 1 or 2 gas, if you see 2, he is definitely going some all in or aggro build, if 1 gas or no gas, most likely expansion, but send another scv (or same scv) again a couple minutes later to check for a nexus. If he never puts down a nexus, then STAY UP YOUR RAMP.
If he is also fast expanding, Then its safe to come down your ramp as soon as you have 1 or 2 marauders and a decent number of marines. Also, check for proxy pylons, if you kill a proxy pylon their aggression/all-in will come that much later, may even be crippled.
After that, upgrade, scout, and drop drop drop. He has stalkers near the edge of his base? Find another corner. Patrolling stalkers? aggro him somewhere else so he stops paying attention for a bit, then drop. Nothing at the edge? drop and kill all his tech. Don't be scared away by 2 stalkers sitting idly there, if you can draw his attention somewhere else for just a moment, you can successfully drop and easily clean up a bunch of units/tech.
Another important thing is to always know what tech he is going. You must react properly to HT or collosi. If you see him put down templar or collosus tech, immediately respond with the appropriate counter and also ATTACK. There is always a gaping hole in the protosses defenses in the moments before they get out storm or collosus/thermal lance. If he has forcefields then just poke up run, poke up again, and in the meantime, drop drop drop.
An important thing to remember is to always keep on the aggression. Don't be passive, keep poking his front before you get drops and add drops to his back after. With conc and stim, there is no way he can catch you unless you let him FF you in, so just always stay at the edge of his range when you are harassing. And its important to keep up with upgrades too, Yes, a double forge toss who is chronoing all his upgrades will get them before you, but not getting your upgrades at all doesn't help. Fighting 2/2 to 3/3 is fine, fighting 0/0 to 3/3 is not.
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Yes, ~ diamond terrans do have a hard time. Eventually your multitasking will be better and your skill will take a big leap forward.
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Yeah bunkers are great and all, but how do you defend 4-5 gate warp prism drop? I lose everytime because I bunker up at my natural and then he just unloads 4 sentrys with energy and FF my ramp and kills my main. This hit before medivacs comes out so I can't elevator my army up to the main either. ಠ_ಠ
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Its a boring matchup, I have played nearly 2k games and i cant remember a single epic TvP game I have ever played but i have countless ZvT memories and some damn good TvT. Its just a boring MU, 2 balls meeting and whoever first gets the killer aoe effect in place slaughter the other ball and its gg.. zzzzzz
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On November 29 2011 05:51 spajn wrote:
Its a boring matchup, I have played nearly 2k games and i cant remember a single epic TvP game I have ever played but i have countless ZvT memories and some damn good TvT. Its just a boring MU, 2 balls meeting and whoever first gets the killer aoe effect in place slaughter the other ball and its gg.. zzzzzz
Yeah I do agree from Protoss perspective that it's really boring to play PvT, but TvP is so much fun! You can do drops to snipe buildings while pushing or expanding and stuff like that.
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On November 29 2011 06:01 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 05:51 spajn wrote:
Its a boring matchup, I have played nearly 2k games and i cant remember a single epic TvP game I have ever played but i have countless ZvT memories and some damn good TvT. Its just a boring MU, 2 balls meeting and whoever first gets the killer aoe effect in place slaughter the other ball and its gg.. zzzzzz Yeah I do agree from Protoss perspective that it's really boring to play PvT, but TvP is so much fun! You can do drops to snipe buildings while pushing or expanding and stuff like that.
Good protoss doesn die to drops these days, I have decent multi task and the only way I manage to win is if I do a timing distraction into the main and snipe a third/second and run the fuck out and return with a third taken and a heavy macro advantage, Good tosses dont take that anymore though, they know if they defend a third past 15 mins they got my numbers, I mean ill admit part of the reason I lose late game engagements is my inability to see obs due to being forced to play on low graphics but yea theres always that 1 or 2 pesky HT that gets away and ruins everything. A couple of storms + collosi and 3-3-2 zealots rushing its a nightmare to control. Pro's can do it sure but pfft.
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I'm not a pro obviously but from what I see it does scale unfairly the longer the game goes; protoss gets stronger while terran can't really. In the late late game, terran can start replacing army supply with MULEs yes, but that's usually way past when Protoss gets lots of storm/colossi, and Protoss has good late game themselves; their expensive units are supply efficient, like archons, colossi, HTs (spellcaster), immortals, etc., and when you add a Mothership to that, you can do things like Archon Toilet.
Anyways I think one of the problems is that, unlike in TvZ where Terran adds more and more support such as tanks and medivacs, then thors for mutas, etc. etc., and then finishing 3/3 infantry upgrades and then starting to go 3/3 on mech upgrades and/or 3/3 on ship upgrades (or just 3 mech attack and 3 ship attack), meaning Terran can actually transition into focusing on a different tech tree (only adding starports or only adding mech units, making only support marines and instead focusing all on mech units), you can't transition from Bio to Mech in TvP and Air is still largely unexplored, at least not easily enough.
I think one of the intended concepts is that, since P T Z are the "strong, expensive, quality" race, the "middle" race, and the "weak, numerable, cheap, quantity" race, that Terran is supposed to force Protoss to draw units away from their deathball much like Zerg does in ZvT by harassing. However the problem is, maps have been getting bigger and bigger, and that only helps the Protoss' lategame advantage of constantly rewarping in anywhere on the map while hindering Terran's ability to drop harass. Perhaps if they buff drop harass lategame by, for example, changing Medivacs to 1 supply to allow more Medivacs in an army, it would help out Terran in the lategame by allowing them to harass more and also mitigate a lot more AOE damage by having more Medivacs in the army lategame if wanted.
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I feel your pain. Especially that protoss has recently started to use warp prisms. Its so hard to see if there is an immortal all in coming or a prism.
In either case if youre out of position youre dead.
Also a BIG problem i have is, that the Protoss just sits outside my natural in front of my bunkers with a huge ass army and i HAVE to keep half my natural scvs there to not die if he decides to attack. but he just doesnt and slowly pushes ahead. :/
I don't know. I'm slowly getting frustrated with the matchup.
Actually i really like to play tvp, but its so hard to see everything coming early enough.
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On November 29 2011 05:39 Schwang wrote:
I think if you use repair + bunkers properly then there is no issue.
Mr. Mass Forcefields wants to have a word with you.
Or you can just bypass all the bunkers completely with a warp prism or by warping up from the low ground.
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Terran diamond here. I'm also having a lot of trouble with my TvP. My experience is that it is really hard to stop a protoss that turtles up and then just move out with a giant death ball. One needs perfect micro to stop that...and that is really hard to do at diamond level. It is easy to say 'hey, just use ghosts'. In order for ghosts to be really effective one needs the kind of control Puma has (or something close to that) and that isn't easy at all.
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On November 29 2011 06:12 Alexstrasas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 05:39 Schwang wrote:
I think if you use repair + bunkers properly then there is no issue. Mr. Mass Forcefields wants to have a word with you. Or you can just bypass all the bunkers completely with a warp prism or by warping up from the low ground.
Zero sympathy for terrans having to deal with drops. Zero. If you scout a fast robo, except them and respect them.
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On November 29 2011 03:45 K3Nyy wrote:
Protoss allins can be dealt with if you scout and prepare for it.
If you're seriously saying Terran has no defender's advantage, then you've seriously never built a bunker. They have the strongest defender's advantage.
I don't think that you understand what the term defender's advantage means. There are some key components that make up "defender's advantage. Bunkers, cannons, sunkens, and other forms of static defense all are a part of defender's advantage, but there's more to it as well. In addition to static defense, you also have terrain advantage (which is only sometimes present); namely, when you're defending your main, generally you have a ramp which congests the attacker's movement and makes it more difficult to assault you. However, on many maps, there is no ramp to the natural and therefore this aspect of defender's advantage is lost. It's something that all races have to deal with, however, so this isn't the biggest deal.
The real problem, however, is that Protoss gets around the most important aspect of defender's advantage. The most important part of defender's advantage is that your units have to travel across the map, meaning that if you and your opponent macro the same and are producing at the exact same rates, then the defender should win. In every other RTS I have ever played, if the attacker wants to have the same number of units (whether it's Age of Empires, WarCraft, or any other RTS), the only way to ensure that they keep up is by proxying structures. What that means is that you can get around this part of defender's advantage, but if you do, and it fails, your production is stranded in the worst part of the map. Terran can fly away their buildings, but that means that they're not producing units and become very vulnerable to all-ins or just plain aggression. Protoss, on the other hand, has Warpgates. Warpgates have a myriad of uses that I don't think have been completely explored yet. Protoss has to proxy a pylon, but the risk of losing a pylon compared to losing all your production is a completely different scenario.
Warpgates remove defender's advantage, which lead to the fact that PvP was (is) constantly 4 Gate, 4 Gate, 4 Gate. TvP and PvT both are filled with goofy, hard to scout all-ins from both sides. They're ridiculously hard to defend, easy to execute, and more than anything else deadly. Terran has the 1/1/1, Protoss has 3 Gate Void Ray. Terran has 3 Rax, Protoss has 4 Gate. Terran has 2 Port Cloak Banshee, Protoss has DTs.
Personally, I struggle more with 3 Gate Void Ray and 4 Gate Warp Prism more than I do with handling any other early game build order. They're difficult to hold, require that you scout them and then often infer from what you've seen. I can sometimes sneak an SCV into my opponent's base, but if I scout 3 Gate Ways, I can't tell if it's a 3 Gate expo, a 3 Gate Void Ray, or even 3 Gate DT play. Similarly, I imagine that for a Protoss player it can be extremely difficult to tell what build I am doing, whether it's a 1/1/1, a reactor expo, or a 2 Rax Reactor first.
Of course, Protoss players talk about the scan, and how great of a scouting tool it is, but really, if the Protoss knows what they're doing, it doesn't help. Once again, I'll scan, see 3 Gates, and then have to guess whether or not they have a DT shrine on the other side of the map. I can randomly scout places, which will sometimes work, but there's no sure way to tell what they're doing until they have a nexus or there's a huge army at your front door.
Then, if you survive the early game shenanigans, you get to the mid-stage. Personally, I think that there is a major disparity here, because if Protoss makes Colossi, and T doesn't have Vikings, T dies. If P has Storm (or even Archons sometimes) and T doesn't have Ghosts, T dies. And still, it is difficult to reliably scout the Protoss. If P powers their upgrades, and T doesn't start them quickly, then the timing window where P is 3/3 and T is not becomes huge, and subsequently T dies. By this point, the Protoss can get observers, which, can be destroyed, but every observer the T kills (assuming the T uses a scan and doesn't run obs into a turret) the P can know that if a big bio push comes, it will be weaker (Scan=less MULES -> less minerals -> less units).
This will probably sound odd, but I think that if Terran could still float their Ebays, it would be easier. Then, we would be able to proxy an Ebay, lift it off to scout, and save some minerals to build turrets if we scout DTs or Stargate play. I've thought about Proxying a barracks in an attempt to scout my opponent or opening up with proxy Marauders to punish greedy Protoss players and then scout, but even then, it costs a decent amount of minerals (both in Barracks cost, SCV not mining, and having to build it at a fairly bad time).
But all that is a bit off topic, the real issue being addressed by this thread is Warpgates. They're an interesting mechanic, but I personally they don't have a place in a competitive game. They provide Protoss with a level of flexibility and mobility while providing them the tools to have remarkable offense and defense. People can go on and on about "Terran is OP" or "Nerf Terran wahh," but I really think that Warpgates just do not belong in StarCraft. It's a pretty big ultimatum, as it's an important part of the race, but Warpgates provide Protoss with vast possibilities early game aggression (removing defender's advantage), allow them to pick off drops and other harassment in the mid-late game, while allowing them to harass in the mid-late game (warping in a few Zealots and running them into a mineal line can be devastating to a Terran economy).
Then you have builds like 3 Gate Void Ray or 4 Gate Warp Prism, where the Protoss player is literally building units in my base, and at this point, I no longer have the terrain, the static defense, nor the extra units, completely removing defender's advantage. I'm not necessarily saying that Warpgates in the current game are OP, but Warpgates just don't belong. They're one of Blizzard's gimmicky ideas that do not belong in competitive play, just like the Mothership or the new Replicant unit.
Not to go too far off topic, but I recently have discovered that mech can work in TvP. Watch Jjakji vs Oz Game 1 on Daybreak. It's not the standard mech army you would expect in TvT or TvZ, but Thor/Banshee compositions are really strong, especially if you throw a raven or two in to take out observers and drop PDDs. If you're having trouble with TvP (like a lot of Terrans who aren't Code S) I would recommend trying it out. It's fairly micro-intensive in the harassment (with cloak banshees), but it requires a lot less micro later on than say a giant bio ball.
EDIT: Please somebody read this, I put time into it haha.
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On November 29 2011 06:11 SevenShots wrote:
I feel your pain. Especially that protoss has recently started to use warp prisms. Its so hard to see if there is an immortal all in coming or a prism.
In either case if youre out of position youre dead.
Also a BIG problem i have is, that the Protoss just sits outside my natural in front of my bunkers with a huge ass army and i HAVE to keep half my natural scvs there to not die if he decides to attack. but he just doesnt and slowly pushes ahead. :/
I don't know. I'm slowly getting frustrated with the matchup.
Actually i really like to play tvp, but its so hard to see everything coming early enough.
1 medivac drop will do insane damage to his main if his army is at your front.
your mules from 2 orbitals will keep you ahead even if you pull 8 scv's
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On November 29 2011 06:07 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:01 K3Nyy wrote:On November 29 2011 05:51 spajn wrote:
Its a boring matchup, I have played nearly 2k games and i cant remember a single epic TvP game I have ever played but i have countless ZvT memories and some damn good TvT. Its just a boring MU, 2 balls meeting and whoever first gets the killer aoe effect in place slaughter the other ball and its gg.. zzzzzz Yeah I do agree from Protoss perspective that it's really boring to play PvT, but TvP is so much fun! You can do drops to snipe buildings while pushing or expanding and stuff like that. Good protoss doesn die to drops these days, I have decent multi task and the only way I manage to win is if I do a timing distraction into the main and snipe a third/second and run the fuck out and return with a third taken and a heavy macro advantage, Good tosses dont take that anymore though, they know if they defend a third past 15 mins they got my numbers, I mean ill admit part of the reason I lose late game engagements is my inability to see obs due to being forced to play on low graphics but yea theres always that 1 or 2 pesky HT that gets away and ruins everything. A couple of storms + collosi and 3-3-2 zealots rushing its a nightmare to control. Pro's can do it sure but pfft.
Thats an easy sweeping generalization to make. Are you sure it isn't just the good protoss that you are fighting that aren't dying to drops?
The real problem, however, is that Protoss gets around the most important aspect of defender's advantage. The most important part of defender's advantage is that your units have to travel across the map, meaning that if you and your opponent macro the same and are producing at the exact same rates, then the defender should win. In every other RTS I have ever played, if the attacker wants to have the same number of units (whether it's Age of Empires, WarCraft, or any other RTS), the only way to ensure that they keep up is by proxying structures. What that means is that you can get around this part of defender's advantage, but if you do, and it fails, your production is stranded in the worst part of the map. Terran can fly away their buildings, but that means that they're not producing units and become very vulnerable to all-ins or just plain aggression. Protoss, on the other hand, has Warpgates. Warpgates have a myriad of uses that I don't think have been completely explored yet. Protoss has to proxy a pylon, but the risk of losing a pylon compared to losing all your production is a completely different scenario.
This has been discussed to death. Protoss gateway units suffer in strength due to the warp gate mechanic. Not even to mention warp gate all-ins are almost non-existent now in korean PvT where Terrans crush them indiscriminately.
On November 29 2011 06:24 Ruscour wrote:
And you're wrong about the lategame, MC himself always says that after 25 minutes, Terran simply wins. The power of Protoss is in the early late game where there is an upgrade advantage, Gateway units, Storm and Colossus. Once Terran has 3-3, Ghosts and Vikings, the Protoss army really doesn't have much of a chance, that's just how the matchup is designed. While the warp-in mechanic means quick forward reinforcements, the Terran army is significantly more mobile. Drop more, flank more, harass bases, etc, if you want the matchup to feel more dynamic. Protoss can't do that because the race is designed to function as a ball.
MC was definitely the forefront of PvT when he said that quote.
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Lucky you get almost free repairable defensive structures, right? Haha.
And if this wasn't a balance discussion, it'd be in the Strategy forum asking for help. This is very much a balance (or at least game design) discussion.
And you're wrong about the lategame, MC himself always says that after 25 minutes, Terran simply wins. The power of Protoss is in the early late game where there is an upgrade advantage, Gateway units, Storm and Colossus. Once Terran has 3-3, Ghosts and Vikings, the Protoss army really doesn't have much of a chance, that's just how the matchup is designed. While the warp-in mechanic means quick forward reinforcements, the Terran army is significantly more mobile. Drop more, flank more, harass bases, etc, if you want the matchup to feel more dynamic. Protoss can't do that because the race is designed to function as a ball.
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On November 29 2011 06:19 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:11 SevenShots wrote:
I feel your pain. Especially that protoss has recently started to use warp prisms. Its so hard to see if there is an immortal all in coming or a prism.
In either case if youre out of position youre dead.
Also a BIG problem i have is, that the Protoss just sits outside my natural in front of my bunkers with a huge ass army and i HAVE to keep half my natural scvs there to not die if he decides to attack. but he just doesnt and slowly pushes ahead. :/
I don't know. I'm slowly getting frustrated with the matchup.
Actually i really like to play tvp, but its so hard to see everything coming early enough. 1 medivac drop will do insane damage to his main if his army is at your front. your mules from 2 orbitals will keep you ahead even if you pull 8 scv's
If i go for a fe and he is putting pressure on with immortals - where do i pull medivacs from?
if i have medivacs this early on and go to drop i just die to the FF immortal push, because i dont ahve a lot of units overall.
Two immortals in combination with FF to prevent repairing does take down bunkers in an awfull small amount of time.
if i go for enough units so that i would be able to drop - i wont have the medivacs in quite a time.
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On November 29 2011 05:27 Endrew wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:58 unit wrote:
sorry, but colossi are a unit that get better with numbers, they're fairly weak at 2...all you need to do to wreck them is get a few units into position behind the P army and boom dead "lolossi"
also, sorry i dont play vs diamonds so i really wouldnt know that you guys arent capable of dealing with this stuff...all of my practice partners are high masters/gm so im used to the terrans being able to nail their emps -___- also 300apm isnt that hard to get, if you go by sc2gears at least, blizz really fucked up the ingame apm thing...that should read eap45s I believe we're talking about the current state of TvP at diamondish level here I'm not talking about the balance in general since I know my limits.
well i cant speak for diamondish...but i believe that balance doesnt mean shit at that level -___- just get better -___-
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On November 29 2011 03:54 SeaSwift wrote:
I don't know why you're so concerned in particular with the Terran defender's advantage. If anything, Protoss have it worse. To make up for the absurdly powerful Warp Gate ability on the offense, Protoss units have to be individually weaker, especially early-mid game. This means that when the Warp Gate ability is not being used to it's full extent, Protoss is at an inherent disadvantage. To counteract this, Blizzard gave Protoss the Sentry, designed to be a defensive unit with Forcefield. But this is unreliable, can be dealt with in varies ways and forces Protoss to rely on excellent micro to succeed, especially in lower leagues.
I don't think it's a problem at higher levels, but in lower league TvP both sides seem to have very weak defender's advantage. Thankfully, in lower leagues the most common flaw (apart from poor macro) is passivity, so the issue you talk about is minimal.
lol how you joking
if you dont use warp gate ability on full extent your macro sux lol
and forcefield is unreliable that is the biggest joke i ever heard its both good for defense and offense
you just ff a bunker and scv cant repair anymore for example
guardianshield is sooo gooood vs terrans
in fact its the terran who needs to rely more on micro then the toss
all you need is just good mechanics and good ff placement
@unit
you are right and i agree 100%
diamonnd and lower have no right to complain about balance seriously
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I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss
User was warned for this post
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On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss
ez win against ez Terran
If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right
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On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right
How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO
On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss
Cut the marauders. they are useless unless you want to fight in open field.
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On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO
I assumed standard play from both P and T with Terran expanding then getting medivacs since he had MM already. Can easily get 2 medivacs by 8:30
What I should have said was make more marines n repair
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On November 29 2011 06:58 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO I assumed standard play from both P and T with Terran expanding then getting medivacs since he had MM already. Can easily get 2 medivacs by 8:30 What I should have said was make more marines n repair
You can't repair if you're being forcefielded. and no you can't have enough units + medivacs by the 8:30 minute mark if you're doing a fast expand and trying to hold off this all in. and in my experience, marines can die pretty easily to by a warp in of stalkers or good forcefield + zealot + sentry mix, immortals also 2-3 shot marines. You literally need to cut workers and get like 5-6 bunkers to hold off this type of all in and just pump hella units.
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On November 29 2011 06:58 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO I assumed standard play from both P and T with Terran expanding then getting medivacs since he had MM already. Can easily get 2 medivacs by 8:30 What I should have said was make more marines n repair
No that's just physically impossible, Terran will not have enough gas for 1 fact, 1 starport reactor, 1,2 adddon for raxes, and some upgrade like combat shield or stim. It's just impossible to get that much gas by 8:30, let alone 200 gas for medivacs.
Contrary to the general belief, Terran is quite gas extensive on 2 bases, even a good amount on 3 bases. That was why you rarely see Terran making ghosts early, even though we know ghosts are good.
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On November 29 2011 07:01 Avril_Lavigne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:58 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO I assumed standard play from both P and T with Terran expanding then getting medivacs since he had MM already. Can easily get 2 medivacs by 8:30 What I should have said was make more marines n repair You can't repair if you're being forcefielded. and no you can't have enough units + medivacs by the 8:30 minute mark if you're doing a fast expand and trying to hold off this all in. and in my experience, marines can die pretty easily to by a warp in of stalkers or good forcefield + zealot + sentry mix, immortals also 2-3 shot marines. You literally need to cut workers and get like 5-6 bunkers to hold off this type of all in and just pump hella units.
if it's an all-in then it's something you gotta scout for and yea, cut workers.
I can't imagine that FE is all that terrans can do? 1 base pressure, doing enough damage can give you an edge in the mid-game. All I'm saying is, a game is typically determined by the early engagements, if you feel you're ahead and you lose to an all-in then that's your fault not the game.
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On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss Cut the marauders. they are useless unless you want to fight in open field.
Why didn't you scout the immortal bust coming? Those units are large and slow. If a forge fast expand, can I cry if the zerg does a roach all in that didn't scout?
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With terrans complaining about the zealot and how its op, just try some BF helions in the mix and get good shots off, they wreck zealots in big battles and in smaller ones if the toss doesnt micro it back
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On November 29 2011 07:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss Cut the marauders. they are useless unless you want to fight in open field. Why didn't you scout the immortal bust coming? Those units are large and slow. If a forge fast expand, can I cry if the zerg does a roach all in that didn't scout?
I do scout it...............................
and even with 4+ bunkers they are able to bust through with good forcefields.
High Master here top 200 in the region
http://sc2ranks.com/us/285591/meFTW
anyway. TvP is definitely not my best match up just like many others who are posting in this thread. But what bugs me is the way you guys say "just get a bunker" as if the match up is basically black and white when it's reallly not.
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On November 29 2011 07:07 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 07:01 Avril_Lavigne wrote:On November 29 2011 06:58 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO I assumed standard play from both P and T with Terran expanding then getting medivacs since he had MM already. Can easily get 2 medivacs by 8:30 What I should have said was make more marines n repair You can't repair if you're being forcefielded. and no you can't have enough units + medivacs by the 8:30 minute mark if you're doing a fast expand and trying to hold off this all in. and in my experience, marines can die pretty easily to by a warp in of stalkers or good forcefield + zealot + sentry mix, immortals also 2-3 shot marines. You literally need to cut workers and get like 5-6 bunkers to hold off this type of all in and just pump hella units. if it's an all-in then it's something you gotta scout for and yea, cut workers. I can't imagine that FE is all that terrans can do? 1 base pressure, doing enough damage can give you an edge in the mid-game. All I'm saying is, a game is typically determined by the early engagements, if you feel you're ahead and you lose to an all-in then that's your fault not the game.
i've stopped doing gasless expand because 90% of my tvps are all ins. i do a 2 rax reactor first the way Polt does it, which has brought my tvp win ratio to like a 60%
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As a mid masters terran, i feel the reason TvP is so hard late game is that the lategame comp of protoss is, namely, chargelot archon. They can make every unit they need out of warp gates, and have a pure mineral AND extraordinary gas dump. Charge-Lot archon is a truly perfect unit comp, 1 zealot and 1 HT cost 150 mins 150 gas together. Chargelots 3-3 can tank a bio ball pretty well and need very little micro (charge is auto-casted) and even if one kites all the chargelots, the weakened bio ball is met with archons and newly made chargelots.. Drop harass late game is negated relatively easily with warp-ins too.
It also doesn't help that ghosts got nerfed hard and 1 emp hits about 1 archon now T.T
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On November 29 2011 06:22 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:07 Rebs wrote:On November 29 2011 06:01 K3Nyy wrote:On November 29 2011 05:51 spajn wrote:
Its a boring matchup, I have played nearly 2k games and i cant remember a single epic TvP game I have ever played but i have countless ZvT memories and some damn good TvT. Its just a boring MU, 2 balls meeting and whoever first gets the killer aoe effect in place slaughter the other ball and its gg.. zzzzzz Yeah I do agree from Protoss perspective that it's really boring to play PvT, but TvP is so much fun! You can do drops to snipe buildings while pushing or expanding and stuff like that. Good protoss doesn die to drops these days, I have decent multi task and the only way I manage to win is if I do a timing distraction into the main and snipe a third/second and run the fuck out and return with a third taken and a heavy macro advantage, Good tosses dont take that anymore though, they know if they defend a third past 15 mins they got my numbers, I mean ill admit part of the reason I lose late game engagements is my inability to see obs due to being forced to play on low graphics but yea theres always that 1 or 2 pesky HT that gets away and ruins everything. A couple of storms + collosi and 3-3-2 zealots rushing its a nightmare to control. Pro's can do it sure but pfft. Thats an easy sweeping generalization to make. Are you sure it isn't just the good protoss that you are fighting that aren't dying to drops?
guess im the only one who saw dreamhack, but thats besides the point ofcourse it was a sweeping generalization and it was made limited to personal experience but ask any masters toss and he will tell you half the time they lose is because "those pesky drops" just got away. Fact of the matter is I feel compelled to do damage in TvP or im behind which is a bit unfair. Tod vs Happy a great example of how hard it is to execute with korean level skill. He was so shit scared of taking on the deathball despite superior everything he lost.
. Now as toss you never feel like you "have to" do damage through harrasment do you ? But you still can, its an option. For me playing personally its not, I have to do it or im not comfortable. I dont blame the game though its something that one can learn to deal with. Im just not there yet myself and seeing better players struggle with it can be frustrating.
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On November 29 2011 07:13 Avril_Lavigne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 07:07 emc wrote:On November 29 2011 07:01 Avril_Lavigne wrote:On November 29 2011 06:58 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO I assumed standard play from both P and T with Terran expanding then getting medivacs since he had MM already. Can easily get 2 medivacs by 8:30 What I should have said was make more marines n repair You can't repair if you're being forcefielded. and no you can't have enough units + medivacs by the 8:30 minute mark if you're doing a fast expand and trying to hold off this all in. and in my experience, marines can die pretty easily to by a warp in of stalkers or good forcefield + zealot + sentry mix, immortals also 2-3 shot marines. You literally need to cut workers and get like 5-6 bunkers to hold off this type of all in and just pump hella units. if it's an all-in then it's something you gotta scout for and yea, cut workers. I can't imagine that FE is all that terrans can do? 1 base pressure, doing enough damage can give you an edge in the mid-game. All I'm saying is, a game is typically determined by the early engagements, if you feel you're ahead and you lose to an all-in then that's your fault not the game. i've stopped doing gasless expand because 90% of my tvps are all ins. i do a 2 rax reactor first the way Polt does it, which has brought my tvp win ratio to like a 60%
lol, that sounds exactly like how i stopped going 1gate fe PvT because 90% of my PvTs are some1base "pressure" ala allin
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I'm pretty sure Terran has the single biggest defenders advantage in the game.
hell you even have UPGRADES for your defensive structures.
maybe try to diversify your units instead of the same garbage MMM that all terrans do.
check out jinro's sky terran vs San zenith.
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On November 29 2011 07:53 Bodzilla wrote:
I'm pretty sure Terran has the single biggest defenders advantage in the game.
hell you even have UPGRADES for your defensive structures.
maybe try to diversify your units instead of the same garbage MMM that all terrans do.
check out jinro's sky terran vs San zenith.
Right do the dinosaur build that the player himself never uses on his stream because of how volatile it is. The point here is to win without gimicky stuff with solid builds. As for the gasless expand. I still do it and try to pump a reaper out these days quick (its not useless and only delays stim a bit) to get a really solid scout. But depends on the map ofcourse, I agree with the toss though. I get so happy when I see a 1 gate expand because I hammered down the timing with medivacs hard (DIE GREEDY PRToSs xD), but I feel alot worse when they go for a safer expand, they can pressure/harrass with.
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On November 29 2011 07:53 Bodzilla wrote:
I'm pretty sure Terran has the single biggest defenders advantage in the game.
hell you even have UPGRADES for your defensive structures.
maybe try to diversify your units instead of the same garbage MMM that all terrans do.
check out jinro's sky terran vs San zenith.
Call me crazy but I'd trade bunkers for FF any day of the week. Your bunkers are void on a 3gate immortal bust.
On the other hand, the TvP 3rax all-in on a protoss FE -IMHO- protoss has a much better chance of surviving with just zeals, sentries and a couple of stalkers for support
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On November 29 2011 08:00 KaiserJohan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 07:53 Bodzilla wrote:
I'm pretty sure Terran has the single biggest defenders advantage in the game.
hell you even have UPGRADES for your defensive structures.
maybe try to diversify your units instead of the same garbage MMM that all terrans do.
check out jinro's sky terran vs San zenith. Call me crazy but I'd trade bunkers for FF any day of the week. Your bunkers are void on a 3gate immortal bust. On the other hand, the TvP 3rax all-in on a protoss FE -IMHO- protoss has a much better chance of surviving with just zeals, sentries and a couple of stalkers for support
i would see it as quite equal chances of defense actually, forcefields dont give as much of a defenders advantage, but at the same time they give an offensive advantage so that evens out a bit, the only reason a 3rax allin would fail though would be if the P was zeal focused and managed to get the ff needed to cancel out all kiting...early on, either that or the P techs to colo and managed to ff the T out...which would be quite difficult to do for a prolonged period of time where one slip up is instant gg
on the other hand, if you are more marine heavy and have stim when the 3gate immortal bust comes then you should be able to hold it with 3-5 bunkers (if you know he is allining keep building them, they salvage for dirt cheap)
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On November 29 2011 04:36 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:14 Flonomenalz wrote:
Protoss could say the exact same thing with late game Terran armies EMP'ing everything with 10 full energy cloaked ghosts. I'd really wish that, for once people would drop this stuff about EMP... EMP takes off (with the exception of Archons) 50% hp max and against Zealots it does very very little since they have more armour hp and are far more likely to have armour upgrades than shield, along with having innate armour.
"they only do 50% damage to them, with a spell which is long ranged splash damage by a unit that can cloak, costs very little gas so it doesnt really delay any tech or upgrades significantly. EMP Does very little. Hell it's only 50% of their health... for free."
Wtf am i reading......
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On November 29 2011 08:00 KaiserJohan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 07:53 Bodzilla wrote:
I'm pretty sure Terran has the single biggest defenders advantage in the game.
hell you even have UPGRADES for your defensive structures.
maybe try to diversify your units instead of the same garbage MMM that all terrans do.
check out jinro's sky terran vs San zenith. Call me crazy but I'd trade bunkers for FF any day of the week. Your bunkers are void on a 3gate immortal bust. On the other hand, the TvP 3rax all-in on a protoss FE -IMHO- protoss has a much better chance of surviving with just zeals, sentries and a couple of stalkers for support
I'll take that trade. I'd love to have forcefields. I can FF my ramp , I can FF your ramp w/e. I'd love to be able to block off chargelots and banelings away from my fragile bio. I'd feel so mobile with FF, I can regenerate energy, it doesn't cost additional money, it can't be broken down (it has a time limit) it doesn't have a build timer (except for generating energy but hey I should start off with 50 energy anyway to a maximum of 200 so that's 4 FF's) FF micro isn't exactly rocket science, it's about quickness and accuracy imo.
although forcefields in the terran army would probably break every match up in the game....... wonder why.
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On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right
I'm not sure that dropping is always the right answer. All that dropping really gives you is scouting information, which can be helpful, but if the Protoss is just sitting around for a 3/3 200/200 army with high tech units, dropping will not do much of anything. The best chance it has of working is to delay the push and pray that the Terran can catch up in upgrades. At the same time, if you consistently drop, then your army will be decently weaker when the Protoss ball finally attacks and then you just die.
Plus, what you said doesn't even apply to what the post you quoted talked about.
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That's why you have to do drops, to keep Protoss in his base until you are "ready".
EDIT: TBH though I recommend all Terrans between Platinum and Diamond do some kind of all in. unless they are really focused on improving and getting into masters.
EDIT:
Also, Terran still has a defenders advantage, only it's half of what it would normally be. Thats why you engage on the Protosses side of the map so when everything gets fucking owned you can maybe escape with your medivacs and have a second force back at home.
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On November 29 2011 03:37 redbrain wrote:
I am a Diamond EU Terran and I find TvP extremely difficult a matchup to play-out and i would like to open this thread to my thoughts on why TvP in some ways is a broken matchup from the perspective of Terran reaching late/End-game with protoss.
Lets look at the current meta game of things protoss are doing, warp-gate timings are incredibly powerful, mixed with the warp prism which most protoss just refused to use for a long time makes warp gates even more scary where most protoss seem to abuse the sentry drop to FF your ramp before your have drop ships, this build simply will kill a terran not prepared with units up the ramp and the only way to stop it is to zone out the warp prism untill you have a viking or drop ships.
Immortal busts make bunkers kind of useless at the moment where you simply have to be extremely ontop of your scouting to know how to stop this, and even then it can simply kill you quite easily.
mass zealot late game vs terran is extremely powerful but can be dealt with micro or a tech switch to reactor blue flame helion.
But the be all and end of all what i am pointing Terran lack so much defenders advantage in TvP to such a huge extent. Look at the other matchups tanks provide such a huge defenders advantage and why is this important?
For a matchup to be dynamic and interesting we need back and forth game play, Protoss haves immortals, collosus and HT or even DT along with chrono'd warp gates to muster together a defenders advantage quite easily and allows them to survive and have a fighting chance to play out the game, but when a collosus timming off 2 base hits your choke and you only have 3 vikings and MMM even with a macro advantage and upgrade advantage, you simply will die unless you stall them and micro out in the middle of the map. It feels so much in this matchup terran _simply_ dies rather than he holds on and fights out the game.
Why dont we use Tanks?
In TvP its widly accepted that mech doesn't work for many reasons, if the protoss player plays stright up.
1) immortals tank alot of splash dmg from tanks
2) collosus or archons can destroy your blocking helions very very easily
3) charge lots always hit on charge of micro with helions because very volatile and hard to keep alive to support your tanks
4) lack of a good anti air option since you cant simply just go thors for anti air as 2 thors is simply a huge investment for a not great anti air option.
So were left with MMM with ghosts and vikings. But the longer the game goes on Terran will get weaker and weaker with this unit combo, since 2 decent HT storms can quite simply melt your stim'd army along with 4/5 collosus constantly damaging your army. I really dislike TvP in how simply volatile this matchup can be in that really terran is forced to make marauders and just keep trying to kill you and hit an upgrade timing after getting dmg done by drops. But in my opinion if there was a better defenders advantage for terran this matchup could be so much more interesting. TvP has so much sick potential as Artosis will say on the GSL but its extremely hard to do this with the current game design and balance in my opinion.
PS this isn't a balance discussion but a discussion on what you think about TvP and terrans defenders advantage in TvP in the current meta game.
OMG, I play Terran and have been trying to explain this to my practice partners! Thanks for the post OP, will be linking them this thread.
And YES, I 100% completely agree with you.
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Different races are different. Zerg has to deal with 6/7 gates in almost every game, not to mention how much protoss have been whining about 1/1/1, but most terrans insist that it is either balanced or UP. To me, it just seems that any MU that contains a protoss player is a volatile one.
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I don't think there's a problem with Terrans defenders advantage, but late game TvP is a mess. Granted most TvP's don't reach late game but those that do are very one sided since the recent patch. Most 200/200 engagements end with Toss up 40/50 supply and that's usually gg.
I do thin Terran has the edge in the early/mid game but the edge is much smaller than before the recent patch and I'm not sure it makes up for the totally lopsided late game.
It's likely that the 1-1-1 and other 1 and 2 base all-Ins will become more frequent as Terrans do everything they can to avoid late game, which makes for less than stellar games. IMO. Until Terran finds a composition that they believe can work other than heavy Bio, the MU will remain a troublesome one for Blizzard.
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On November 29 2011 08:15 Avril_Lavigne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 08:00 KaiserJohan wrote:On November 29 2011 07:53 Bodzilla wrote:
I'm pretty sure Terran has the single biggest defenders advantage in the game.
hell you even have UPGRADES for your defensive structures.
maybe try to diversify your units instead of the same garbage MMM that all terrans do.
check out jinro's sky terran vs San zenith. Call me crazy but I'd trade bunkers for FF any day of the week. Your bunkers are void on a 3gate immortal bust. On the other hand, the TvP 3rax all-in on a protoss FE -IMHO- protoss has a much better chance of surviving with just zeals, sentries and a couple of stalkers for support I'll take that trade. I'd love to have forcefields. I can FF my ramp , I can FF your ramp w/e. I'd love to be able to block off chargelots and banelings away from my fragile bio. I'd feel so mobile with FF, I can regenerate energy, it doesn't cost additional money, it can't be broken down (it has a time limit) it doesn't have a build timer (except for generating energy but hey I should start off with 50 energy anyway to a maximum of 200 so that's 4 FF's) FF micro isn't exactly rocket science, it's about quickness and accuracy imo. although forcefields in the terran army would probably break every match up in the game....... wonder why.
FF would make T OP, while it makes P a playable race.
To OP: Defender's advantage shouldn't be talked about without a replay. PvT equal early game, heavily in Terran favor after stim, back to balanced/P's favor once ranged colossi numbers are at 3+, back to normal/T favored once vikings are out. No question about it if you want to talk about advantage, P needs 3rd base before T does, blah blah blah, need to see situationally what you're talking about because of too much variance.
Also, you don't want to trade bunkers for FF. You're going to be able to afford only marines and sentries, and both of those units are shit vs Gateway units.
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combat shields is good against immortal bust. I think repair and 3 bunkers plus 5 rax only 1 techlab is enough to hold it, don't need for more than 1 gas either. can easily transition but you are sacraficing tech to defend an all in, which I think is justified.
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On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance.
I don't understand this attitude that game balance is a luxury reserved for progamers. Obviously the game shouldn't be primarily balanced around bronze league but if you have non-trivial imbalances affecting a large percent of casual players then that's a problem that needs to be addressed.
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I've decided just to wait for the warhound and the battle hellion in hots and not complain until then. Just 1base or 2base allin vs protoss, because if you stay on MMM/ghost/viking you WILL lose straight-up battle vs colossus/archon/storm/zealot. If you do end up in a late game scenario like that it's best just to base trade.
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On November 29 2011 08:40 Came Norrection wrote:
combat shields is good against immortal bust. I think repair and 3 bunkers plus 5 rax only 1 techlab is enough to hold it, don't need for more than 1 gas either. can easily transition but you are sacraficing tech to defend an all in, which I think is justified.
assuming the protoss does immortal all in push you before you can scout it at all ... thats smart 
3 bunkers also are definitely not enough. 4 is the minimum if the protoss uses decent FFs.
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On November 29 2011 08:43 MysteryHours wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. I don't understand this attitude that game balance is a luxury reserved for progamers. Obviously the game shouldn't be primarily balanced around bronze league but if you have non-trivial imbalances affecting a large percent of casual players then that's a problem that needs to be addressed.
Yes, the problem is that people need to stop having games hold their hand and get achievements/victory screens all the time and just improve. If something is "balanced" at a certain level then that means it's possible for you to get to that level. So instead of wasting your time QQ'ing that you in low gold can't beat protoss death ball qq 1-a you should try to improve to that level of skill.
Not putting in the time to improve and just complaining is insulting to everyone else that does. It's honestly ridiculous and sad that people still do this.
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On November 29 2011 08:47 SevenShots wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 08:40 Came Norrection wrote:
combat shields is good against immortal bust. I think repair and 3 bunkers plus 5 rax only 1 techlab is enough to hold it, don't need for more than 1 gas either. can easily transition but you are sacraficing tech to defend an all in, which I think is justified. assuming the protoss does immortal all in push you before you can scout it at all ... thats smart I donno, there is a thing from an orbital that allows you to "scan" for things anywhere on the map. maybe that might be helpful. scout the front with scv and scan his base? Teching too fast is ussually how people lose to allins.
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On November 29 2011 08:53 Came Norrection wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 08:47 SevenShots wrote:On November 29 2011 08:40 Came Norrection wrote:
combat shields is good against immortal bust. I think repair and 3 bunkers plus 5 rax only 1 techlab is enough to hold it, don't need for more than 1 gas either. can easily transition but you are sacraficing tech to defend an all in, which I think is justified. assuming the protoss does immortal all in push you before you can scout it at all ... thats smart I donno, there is a thing from an orbital that allows you to "scan" for things anywhere on the map. maybe that might be helpful. scout the front with scv and scan his base? Teching too fast is ussually how people lose to allins.
yes and the protoss places his all in tech right there where i scan so that i can prepare properly.
that sounds right.
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On November 29 2011 08:43 MysteryHours wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. I don't understand this attitude that game balance is a luxury reserved for progamers. Obviously the game shouldn't be primarily balanced around bronze league but if you have non-trivial imbalances affecting a large percent of casual players then that's a problem that needs to be addressed.
Addressed by said players via getting better. There are few, blatant, non-trivial imbalances in lower leagues. They're immediately solved by researching how to stop X imbalanced build, then moving on. It's definitely not reserved for pros either; GM/high masters enjoy the same meta game at a lower skill level.
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On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance.
Posts like this really piss me off. I purchased a game that cost $100 to have fun with. Not deal with broken shit. Your so called "wood" leagues are the community that keeps this game rolling. You just keep staring at the fucking GSL all day long. As much as Blizzard might want to balance it at top notch pro level, they also need to keep what you call "wood leauges" in mind as well.
Have a look around you and realise the decline of Terran players outside of Korea, I feel like I play against a freaking zerg almost every game, and if it isn't a zerg it will be a toss. I don't play against Terrans anywhere near as much as what I used to. I wonder why this is?
To those saying build bunkers..... what a fucking joke.
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On November 29 2011 08:44 Meta wrote:
I've decided just to wait for the warhound and the battle hellion in hots and not complain until then. Just 1base or 2base allin vs protoss, because if you stay on MMM/ghost/viking you WILL lose straight-up battle vs colossus/archon/storm/zealot. If you do end up in a late game scenario like that it's best just to base trade.
I agree with this. Right now, more then half the "tech tree" is useless vs Protoss after the 10 min mark.
BTW, even Goody has given up on mech in TvP FFS. Battle hellions, we need you! :p
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On November 29 2011 08:40 Came Norrection wrote:
combat shields is good against immortal bust. I think repair and 3 bunkers plus 5 rax only 1 techlab is enough to hold it, don't need for more than 1 gas either. can easily transition but you are sacraficing tech to defend an all in, which I think is justified.
I've actually done very similar builds to that (possibly that exactly, though I've normally gone up to at least 4 or 5 bunkers) and still been walked over by Immortal all-ins with ease. Basically I've tried everything I can think of within the MMMG composition (from the basis of a gasless FE) and never beaten an Immortal all-in from a player of similar level (mid-Masters). Last time I lost to it I asked the Protoss what beat it and his answer was that either he really really messes up his FFs, or every single SCV is sacraficed to defend the push and followed up with an immediate counter-attack, neither of which tickle my fancy.
My next plan is to scout when it's about to hit and retreat my natural back inside my main to try and hold there, since holding the natural just seems impossible. But if it's a 2 base variant this would set me really far behind. The search continues.
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On November 29 2011 08:52 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 08:43 MysteryHours wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. I don't understand this attitude that game balance is a luxury reserved for progamers. Obviously the game shouldn't be primarily balanced around bronze league but if you have non-trivial imbalances affecting a large percent of casual players then that's a problem that needs to be addressed. Yes, the problem is that people need to stop having games hold their hand and get achievements/victory screens all the time and just improve. If something is "balanced" at a certain level then that means it's possible for you to get to that level. So instead of wasting your time QQ'ing that you in low gold can't beat protoss death ball qq 1-a you should try to improve to that level of skill. Not putting in the time to improve and just complaining is insulting to everyone else that does. It's honestly ridiculous and sad that people still do this.
I completely agree with this. I'm not saying these imbalances even exist, I'm just saying that if they did then that's something that needs to be addressed. This is really just a response to the sentiment I originally quoted of "fuck the lower leagues"
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On November 29 2011 09:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 08:44 Meta wrote:
I've decided just to wait for the warhound and the battle hellion in hots and not complain until then. Just 1base or 2base allin vs protoss, because if you stay on MMM/ghost/viking you WILL lose straight-up battle vs colossus/archon/storm/zealot. If you do end up in a late game scenario like that it's best just to base trade. I agree with this. Right now, more then half the "tech tree" is useless vs Protoss after the 10 min mark. BTW, even Goody has given up on mech in TvP FFS. Battle hellions, we need you! :p
Yeah, I have my arms wide open for the battle-hellion and warhound, but you can't kill anything that can just keep teleporting all day long (Nexus Mass recall).
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On November 29 2011 09:03 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. Posts like this really piss me off. I purchased a game that cost $100 to have fun with. Not deal with broken shit. Your so called "wood" leagues are the community that keeps this game rolling. You just keep staring at the fucking GSL all day long. As much as Blizzard might want to balance it at top notch pro level, they also need to keep what you call "wood leauges" in mind as well. Have a look around you and realise the decline of Terran players outside of Korea, I feel like I play against a freaking zerg almost every game, and if it isn't a zerg it will be a toss. I don't play against Terrans anywhere near as much as what I used to. I wonder why this is? To those saying build bunkers..... what a fucking joke.
Man you got ripped off 100$  EDIT : O collector's edition I guess ?
Let me tell you a story. Once upon a time, I was having problem with PvZ, what did I do? Nothing I just kept playing accepting the fact my PvZ was terrible. Then, the protoss "domination" area of PvZ came. Did my PvZ managed to break the mighty 25% winrate then ? Nope. Everyone was owning Z left and right and I had an hard time winning a single game once in a while. Also, what did I do trying to fix the problem? Well same as always, I played ladder hoping I wouldn't face a zerg. Recently, I got tired of this shit. So I manned the fuck up and starting playing zerg agaisn't protoss friends. I wanted to understand what was giving Z problem in this matchup. So I played and played. When I was satisfied with this, I started playing PvZ again vs zerg friends. I played and tried to exploit the fuck out of what I had learned. I played and played and played. Then I came back on ladder. Results ? My PvZ is still my worst matchup (even tho my PvP is slowly but surely fighting for that spot) but it no longers hovers at 21% and is now at 47 %.
Now on to your ladder experiences... I feel like I am playing agaisnt way too many zergs. I queue up a game and OH WHOS THERE? ITS FUCKING KERRIGAN! Look again ! It's a fucking mutalisk! How man it looks like you haven't seen enough hydras today, heres 2 more ! Then I get a PvP... BUT THEN WE'RE ON TO CHAR AGAIN HELL YEAH !
Then I check sc2gears and realise that I play around 33% of every matchup. It's just your perception, it's still pretty much even.
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On November 29 2011 09:03 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. Posts like this really piss me off. I purchased a game that cost $100 to have fun with. Not deal with broken shit. Your so called "wood" leagues are the community that keeps this game rolling. You just keep staring at the fucking GSL all day long.
The only thing that's broken is your attitude, wow.
This thread isn't a discussion in any way shape or form. This is a reddit thread with a TL skin.
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On November 29 2011 09:28 SpiZe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 09:03 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. Posts like this really piss me off. I purchased a game that cost $100 to have fun with. Not deal with broken shit. Your so called "wood" leagues are the community that keeps this game rolling. You just keep staring at the fucking GSL all day long. As much as Blizzard might want to balance it at top notch pro level, they also need to keep what you call "wood leauges" in mind as well. Have a look around you and realise the decline of Terran players outside of Korea, I feel like I play against a freaking zerg almost every game, and if it isn't a zerg it will be a toss. I don't play against Terrans anywhere near as much as what I used to. I wonder why this is? To those saying build bunkers..... what a fucking joke. Man you got ripped off 100$ Let me tell you a story. Once upon a time, I was having problem with PvZ, what did I do? Nothing I just kept playing accepting the fact my PvZ was terrible. Then, the protoss "domination" area of PvZ came. Did my PvZ managed to break the mighty 25% winrate then ? Nope. Everyone was owning Z left and right and I had an hard time winning a single game once in a while. Also, what did I do trying to fix the problem? Well same as always, I played ladder hoping I wouldn't face a zerg. Recently, I got tired of this shit. So I manned the fuck up and starting playing zerg agaisn't protoss friends. I wanted to understand what was giving Z problem in this matchup. So I played and played. When I was satisfied with this, I started playing PvZ again vs zerg friends. I played and tried to exploit the fuck out of what I had learned. I played and played and played. Then I came back on ladder. Results ? My PvZ is still my worst matchup (even tho my PvP is slowly but surely fighting for that spot) but it no longers hovers at 21% and is now at 47 %. Now on to your ladder experiences... I feel like I am playing agaisnt way too many zergs. I queue up a game and OH WHOS THERE? ITS FUCKING KERRIGAN! Look again ! It's a fucking mutalisk! How man it looks like you haven't seen enough hydras today, heres 2 more ! Then I get a PvP... BUT THEN WE'RE ON TO CHAR AGAIN HELL YEAH ! Then I check sc2gears and realise that I play around 33% of every matchup. It's just your perception, it's still pretty much even.
I need to get Sc2 gears so I can prove it, but I can say right now I have been keeping track of the general ratio of what race I play since I was diamond (masters now). Out of every 20 games I will play around 8-9 zerg and protoss, and 2 terran, IF I AM LUCKY.
It is obvious that terrans are feeling en masse and have been doing so for a long while even in master league, and this frustrates me immensely because I enjoy TVT more than the other match ups. When I got this game I didn't expect to only be playing against 2 races when there were 3 races advertised. I have talked to many other players around my level and they can all attest to not quing up vs many terran, if any at all when they do there ladder sessions.
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On November 29 2011 09:32 DrowSwordsman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 09:03 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. Posts like this really piss me off. I purchased a game that cost $100 to have fun with. Not deal with broken shit. Your so called "wood" leagues are the community that keeps this game rolling. You just keep staring at the fucking GSL all day long. The only thing that's broken is your attitude, wow. This thread isn't a discussion in any way shape or form. This is a reddit thread with a TL skin.
Nah, it's not my attitude buddy. It's just some people don't like to be told things straight down the line.
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1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.)
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On November 29 2011 09:40 Qibla wrote:
1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.)
Your rewriting history bro.
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how did this thread go from tvp defender's advantage to balance in the different leagues...
oh I know why cause some bronze guy was like tvp is "imbalanced"
no
tvp is not imbalanced, I could mass workers and win in bronze league. get better and stop whining
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honestly, discussing balance when you're not playing at the highest level of competition is kind of pointless
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clearly, diamond terrans can call a matchup broken, and it must be right. blizzard, do something to fix this broken matchup supported by perfect play executed by a diamond terran. come on bro, you can't be serioues
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It's not just tvp but also PVZ(oops) you can say... i notice most base trades come with protoss being one of the players.
edit: sorry I mean PvZ...
not tvz which i think is okay :p
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On November 29 2011 09:47 Lavi wrote:
It's not just tvp but also tvz you can say... i notice most base trades come with protoss being one of the players.
T v Z is by far the most balanced MU atm. Not to mention the most exciting to watch. This is one MU where I feel like I have a 50/50 chance of winning from the early - late game. At least Blizzard got something right I guess, gotta give em' credit where it's due.
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On November 29 2011 09:43 NerZhuL wrote:
how did this thread go from tvp defender's advantage to balance in the different leagues...
oh I know why cause some bronze guy was like tvp is "imbalanced"
no
tvp is not imbalanced, I could mass workers and win in bronze league. get better and stop whining
Well there was a thread not too long ago, about skill in different leagues and what that means for the matchups.
It was general consensus that, bronze to platinum Zerg was the hardest to play, because you need good scouting, macro, and game sense to win. 1 base Terran and Protoss play is very strong verse someone new to the game.
As you move into diamond and masters, Terran was the hardest, because at that skill level, the macro mechanics of Zerg and Protoss gave a considerable advantage over the Terran. Terran also needs excellent micro to do things like, split vs banelings, kite zealots, split vs storm, split vs infestors, emp ht's and infestors, engage at different angles vs protoss deathball. You also need very good multitasking to macro, whilst fighting and microing main engagement, whilst multipronged drops, and doing your best to keep those alive.
Then as you move into GM, Protoss was considered hardest at the time, because it has the lowest skill cap. It's basically a-move. Not much micro you can do, where as Terran and Zerg have more options.
That was the general consensus of a very very large poll, and comments.
Though, yes this has moved it away from the OP, he did mention that he was diamond league. So I guess that once again backs up the findings of the earlier thread. That TvP at a diamond level, with diamond players skill abilities, is damn hard.
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On November 29 2011 09:47 Lavi wrote:
It's not just tvp but also PVZ(oops) you can say... i notice most base trades come with protoss being one of the players.
edit: sorry I mean PvZ...
not tvz which i think is okay :p
Weird, I notice more base trade with the zerg being one of the player due to their frequent counter attacks.
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On November 29 2011 09:36 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 09:32 DrowSwordsman wrote:On November 29 2011 09:03 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. Posts like this really piss me off. I purchased a game that cost $100 to have fun with. Not deal with broken shit. Your so called "wood" leagues are the community that keeps this game rolling. You just keep staring at the fucking GSL all day long. The only thing that's broken is your attitude, wow. This thread isn't a discussion in any way shape or form. This is a reddit thread with a TL skin. Nah, it's not my attitude buddy. It's just some people don't like to be told things straight down the line.
Kind of like how you don't like being called out on the fact that you probably suck at the game, rather than the game being problematic... This thread is fucking stupid.
Kawaii is wise beyond his years.
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this thread is getting disgusting and needs to be closed.
I'd rather see replays than kids arguing about pointless crap. If you can't stop an immortal bust then show us! Maybe your early engagements went poorly, maybe you got outplayed or maybe the build you are doing just plain sucks. There are a ton of factors that come into this game and people are just theory crafting with zero evidence. Just because there is a [D] doesn't mean we get to ignore the evidence.
I'd like to see a thread with a more organized OP that has several replays of high level players using different strategies and facing different ones as well. Until we see every angle we can't ever say something is imba. And there is probably a terran build that hasn't been discovered yet and will be called OP when it does.
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On November 29 2011 09:28 SpiZe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 09:03 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. Posts like this really piss me off. I purchased a game that cost $100 to have fun with. Not deal with broken shit. Your so called "wood" leagues are the community that keeps this game rolling. You just keep staring at the fucking GSL all day long. As much as Blizzard might want to balance it at top notch pro level, they also need to keep what you call "wood leauges" in mind as well. Have a look around you and realise the decline of Terran players outside of Korea, I feel like I play against a freaking zerg almost every game, and if it isn't a zerg it will be a toss. I don't play against Terrans anywhere near as much as what I used to. I wonder why this is? To those saying build bunkers..... what a fucking joke. Man you got ripped off 100$ EDIT : O collector's edition I guess ? Let me tell you a story. Once upon a time, I was having problem with PvZ, what did I do? Nothing I just kept playing accepting the fact my PvZ was terrible. Then, the protoss "domination" area of PvZ came. Did my PvZ managed to break the mighty 25% winrate then ? Nope. Everyone was owning Z left and right and I had an hard time winning a single game once in a while. Also, what did I do trying to fix the problem? Well same as always, I played ladder hoping I wouldn't face a zerg. Recently, I got tired of this shit. So I manned the fuck up and starting playing zerg agaisn't protoss friends. I wanted to understand what was giving Z problem in this matchup. So I played and played. When I was satisfied with this, I started playing PvZ again vs zerg friends. I played and tried to exploit the fuck out of what I had learned. I played and played and played. Then I came back on ladder. Results ? My PvZ is still my worst matchup (even tho my PvP is slowly but surely fighting for that spot) but it no longers hovers at 21% and is now at 47 %. Now on to your ladder experiences... I feel like I am playing agaisnt way too many zergs. I queue up a game and OH WHOS THERE? ITS FUCKING KERRIGAN! Look again ! It's a fucking mutalisk! How man it looks like you haven't seen enough hydras today, heres 2 more ! Then I get a PvP... BUT THEN WE'RE ON TO CHAR AGAIN HELL YEAH ! Then I check sc2gears and realise that I play around 33% of every matchup. It's just your perception, it's still pretty much even.
Well, not really just perception for me atm, too bad since TvT is the only matchup I happen to find piss easy :/
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TrU0L.png)
Then again I usually find TvZ pretty fun but TvP can just leave (really saddening since TvP is may favorite BW matchup (to watch)).
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On November 29 2011 08:40 Came Norrection wrote:
combat shields is good against immortal bust. I think repair and 3 bunkers plus 5 rax only 1 techlab is enough to hold it, don't need for more than 1 gas either. can easily transition but you are sacraficing tech to defend an all in, which I think is justified.
5 Barracks on two bases will beat a few Protoss all-ins, then die whenever the Protoss builds Colossi. You clearly don't understand the match-up, as this build sets you up only for a small period of time, while it leaves you extremely vulnerable in the transition from early to mid game. Any tech on the Protoss's side absolutely destroys it.
On November 29 2011 08:39 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 08:15 Avril_Lavigne wrote:On November 29 2011 08:00 KaiserJohan wrote:On November 29 2011 07:53 Bodzilla wrote:
I'm pretty sure Terran has the single biggest defenders advantage in the game.
hell you even have UPGRADES for your defensive structures.
maybe try to diversify your units instead of the same garbage MMM that all terrans do.
check out jinro's sky terran vs San zenith. Call me crazy but I'd trade bunkers for FF any day of the week. Your bunkers are void on a 3gate immortal bust. On the other hand, the TvP 3rax all-in on a protoss FE -IMHO- protoss has a much better chance of surviving with just zeals, sentries and a couple of stalkers for support I'll take that trade. I'd love to have forcefields. I can FF my ramp , I can FF your ramp w/e. I'd love to be able to block off chargelots and banelings away from my fragile bio. I'd feel so mobile with FF, I can regenerate energy, it doesn't cost additional money, it can't be broken down (it has a time limit) it doesn't have a build timer (except for generating energy but hey I should start off with 50 energy anyway to a maximum of 200 so that's 4 FF's) FF micro isn't exactly rocket science, it's about quickness and accuracy imo. although forcefields in the terran army would probably break every match up in the game....... wonder why. FF would make T OP, while it makes P a playable race. To OP: Defender's advantage shouldn't be talked about without a replay. PvT equal early game, heavily in Terran favor after stim, back to balanced/P's favor once ranged colossi numbers are at 3+, back to normal/T favored once vikings are out. No question about it if you want to talk about advantage, P needs 3rd base before T does, blah blah blah, need to see situationally what you're talking about because of too much variance. Also, you don't want to trade bunkers for FF. You're going to be able to afford only marines and sentries, and both of those units are shit vs Gateway units.
First off this whole trading units reminds me of 4th grade with all the "I'll trade you my Charizard for your Blastoise" nonsense, which is stupid and doesn't belong on the TL forums (though Pokemon are the shit).
Secondly, I think that we can discuss a topic as broad as defender's advantage without a replay. Everybody knows exactly what we're talking about, it's Warpgates and the vast array of usage that they have, namely, their ability to be offensive wrecking machines in the early and midgames. And TvP/PvT is a lot less black and white as you seem to make it. There is no "well at this point T is OP, then at this point it's balanced, and then it's OP again for T." That doesn't make any sense. Good forcefield control can beat large stim pushes if they have no medivac support. In theory, the situation you're playing out could mean that at a certain point, Terran can hit timing windows, or Protoss can hit timing windows, or at a certain point both are fairly well defended and able to expand. But you're looking at the match-up in a stupid light that doesn't make any sense (as are a lot of people who play both Terran and Protoss).
On November 29 2011 08:52 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 08:43 MysteryHours wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. I don't understand this attitude that game balance is a luxury reserved for progamers. Obviously the game shouldn't be primarily balanced around bronze league but if you have non-trivial imbalances affecting a large percent of casual players then that's a problem that needs to be addressed. Yes, the problem is that people need to stop having games hold their hand and get achievements/victory screens all the time and just improve. If something is "balanced" at a certain level then that means it's possible for you to get to that level. So instead of wasting your time QQ'ing that you in low gold can't beat protoss death ball qq 1-a you should try to improve to that level of skill. Not putting in the time to improve and just complaining is insulting to everyone else that does. It's honestly ridiculous and sad that people still do this.
The community always does this, where they lose games to something, and then immediately say "this is OP, that is OP, and so clearly, this game is OP." I think that Warpgates as a game mechanic are bad--regardless of balance, I think that removing a key aspect of defender's advantage is not good for a competitive game. That's not to say that you cannot have innovative ideas in your games (just look at Zerg), I just think that from a game-makers perspective, Warpgates are a bad idea.
I agree that people should stop complaining about builds, because stupid nerfs ruin builds; the example I always think of is Reapers or Thors. If you watch IdrA's games against MorroW, both of them played horribly, so who knows if Nitro Packs would still be "OP." And ThorZaIN's mech style TvP was hardly explored before Blizzard nerfed it.
Personally, I think that discussing the Warpgate mechanic and how it affects Defender's Advantage is an interesting point of discussion, but sadly since this thread has devolved (partly to the fault of a poorly phrased OP) it really should just be closed.
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On November 29 2011 09:28 SpiZe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 09:03 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. Posts like this really piss me off. I purchased a game that cost $100 to have fun with. Not deal with broken shit. Your so called "wood" leagues are the community that keeps this game rolling. You just keep staring at the fucking GSL all day long. As much as Blizzard might want to balance it at top notch pro level, they also need to keep what you call "wood leauges" in mind as well. Have a look around you and realise the decline of Terran players outside of Korea, I feel like I play against a freaking zerg almost every game, and if it isn't a zerg it will be a toss. I don't play against Terrans anywhere near as much as what I used to. I wonder why this is? To those saying build bunkers..... what a fucking joke. Man you got ripped off 100$ EDIT : O collector's edition I guess ? Let me tell you a story. Once upon a time, I was having problem with PvZ, what did I do? Nothing I just kept playing accepting the fact my PvZ was terrible. Then, the protoss "domination" area of PvZ came. Did my PvZ managed to break the mighty 25% winrate then ? Nope. Everyone was owning Z left and right and I had an hard time winning a single game once in a while. Also, what did I do trying to fix the problem? Well same as always, I played ladder hoping I wouldn't face a zerg. Recently, I got tired of this shit. So I manned the fuck up and starting playing zerg agaisn't protoss friends. I wanted to understand what was giving Z problem in this matchup. So I played and played. When I was satisfied with this, I started playing PvZ again vs zerg friends. I played and tried to exploit the fuck out of what I had learned. I played and played and played. Then I came back on ladder. Results ? My PvZ is still my worst matchup (even tho my PvP is slowly but surely fighting for that spot) but it no longers hovers at 21% and is now at 47 %. Now on to your ladder experiences... I feel like I am playing agaisnt way too many zergs. I queue up a game and OH WHOS THERE? ITS FUCKING KERRIGAN! Look again ! It's a fucking mutalisk! How man it looks like you haven't seen enough hydras today, heres 2 more ! Then I get a PvP... BUT THEN WE'RE ON TO CHAR AGAIN HELL YEAH ! Then I check sc2gears and realise that I play around 33% of every matchup. It's just your perception, it's still pretty much even.
My MU's on sc2 gears aren't close to even.
TvT 26% (81 games)
TvP 32.5% (101 games)
TvZ 41.2% (128 games)
Obviously i play less terrans. This is with 310 games in my database, seems like a large enough sample
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Wow a diamond league Terran player creating a balance whine OP against Protoss, even going so far as to saying the match-up is broken. He poses no data, no matches, and no other hard evidence suggesting this.
Obviously TvP is not broken in Protoss's favor, or else most of the best players in the entire world would not be Terran. Instead, how about you post some of your own games, with your own analyses, and ask for our feedback? It would be a lot more helpful for you instead of assuming that you're playing perfectly and that the match-up is inherently disadvantageous for you.
How did this thread stay open this long x.x
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Can you please post a replay of this seemingly unstoppable immortal bust you're talking about? I would like to learn it because that must be some kind of special tactics immortal bust. I mean I'm betting on that you're not making any big mistakes when you try to hold this as then the entire thread would be pointless so why not show us a replay of this killing you? Sounds like it has happened to you many times after all.
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On November 29 2011 10:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Obviously TvP is not broken in Protoss's favor, or else most of the best players in the entire world would not be Terran.
Flawed logic. Race does not determine skill. I'm sure if MVP picked protoss or zerg. He'd still be best player in the world.
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On November 29 2011 04:14 LXR wrote:
The "macro mechanic" that saves terran is repairing. You need to have scv's pulled to your bunker as soon as you see they might be attacking. Being able to repair with a large amount of scv's lets terran hang on for an unreal amount of time. It's hard to push with both sentries and immortals to block the repairing, but if that happens.... you're kind of screwed. Unless you went overboard and made 2 + bunkers.
That has never saved me. Protoss just FFs and i can't repair. But i can still win i just have to have a good army and catch him midfield with my units spread out and ready to flank.
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sorry to say, but protoss macro mechanics takes out defenders advantage with warp in(reinforcements right next to your base) and force fields, so i usually try and catch them midfield in the early game as force fields don't work too well on a open field and there's no pylon for him to warp in.
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On November 29 2011 10:46 Qibla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 10:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Obviously TvP is not broken in Protoss's favor, or else most of the best players in the entire world would not be Terran. Flawed logic. Race does not determine skill. I'm sure if MVP picked protoss or zerg. He'd still be best player in the world.
Maybe not "flawed logic," but players like Mvp or MMA would surely do well with any race. I think it's also good to note that outside of Korea, the most successful players don't play Terran, but rather Zerg or Protoss. When was the last time a foreign Terran won a tournament with Koreans? When you talk about foreign Zerg or Protoss players, multiple ones come to mind; but I can't think of a Terran who won a tournament with Koreans for a while.
His logic is not correct, and I think that if Blizzard continues to senselessly nerf Terran, then there may be problems, but with the current stage of the game (or the stage of the game a few patches ago), it is fairly balanced. This shouldn't be a balance thread though...
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Wow. I'm also amazed this thread has stayed open so long.
Considering so many people are having a baby about the Immortal bust, watch Rain vs Hangswin from the NASL play offs last night. Rain went 1 rax marauder FE and held it easily. If you are losing to it, you are doing something wrong.
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To all those saying buildings like bunkers and turrets are apart Of a defenders advantage you are so so very wrong. Defenders advantage refers to the act of your opponent having to walk there units across map. Which Protoss does not have to. I have agreed with the op for a long time personally. Warp in needs to go or have a Radius from the nexus where ur pylon has to be within a certin range. All you Protoss player that are saying as I mentioned above, aren't trying to contribute, they just want to qq.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Arkless, its been mentioned several times that gateway units are weak early game to make up for the fact that they have an offensive warp in mechanic. Can you not read? Seriously this thread makes me very sad about the state of Teamliquid.
The fact that a very, very poorly disguised balance/game design whine thread was started by a diamond player really says it all.
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Yes I can read. Apparently you can't, or you would have read my compromise (radius from nexus) your qq makes me sad. If you have no thoughts to contribute go elsewhere
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I don't believe that anything is imbalanced in PvT however I do think that the match up suffers from a certain staleness. The siege tank was nerfed into the ground in beta and now is a mere shadow of its former self. Now terrans just spam bio because they have to and it's really boring to watch.
I always thought that to vary the match up a bit marines should lose 1 range and then add the BW style +1 range upgrade into the reactor. To compensate give siege tanks +10 damage back. Imagine how much of a meta game change that would create. I just want to see beastly siege tanks again and stop seeing god-like marines being spammed all match long.
Edit: Poor choice of wording.
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On November 29 2011 11:08 Trowa127 wrote:
Arkless, its been mentioned several times that gateway units are weak early game to make up for the fact that they have an offensive warp in mechanic. Can you not read? Seriously this thread makes me very sad about the state of Teamliquid.
The fact that a very, very poorly disguised balance/game design whine thread was started by a diamond player really says it all.
That attitude proves my point. Take your elitism elsewhere. This is TL, where people from broodwar were generally no higher than a B. And were allowed to post their opinions. But regardless, why bitch about a thread made by a high diamond, stating he isnt good enough to make a thread. Yet you a low platinum put your 2 cents all over it. Like I said, go elsewhere please
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On November 29 2011 11:11 Arkless wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 11:08 Trowa127 wrote:
Arkless, its been mentioned several times that gateway units are weak early game to make up for the fact that they have an offensive warp in mechanic. Can you not read? Seriously this thread makes me very sad about the state of Teamliquid.
The fact that a very, very poorly disguised balance/game design whine thread was started by a diamond player really says it all. That attitude proves my point.
How does it prove your point? This thread serves no purpose. There is a designated balance discussion thread for topics such as these. And your 'suggestion' of having the role of an offensive pylon removed (unless you built a proxy nexus) kinda defeats the point of a warp in.
Do I think Terran has trouble in the TvP match up? Yes. Do I think Protoss has trouble in PvT match up? Yes. Can most of a diamond players problems be solved by actually getting better at the game instead of posting about thing that really have no effect on the out come of their games? Certainly.
I even mentioned a scenario in which the build people have been complaining about most in this thread was easily defeated. How is that not constructive?
Its just very sad that these threads take hold, because they stop people from looking at their actual issues in each match up and encourage them to blame it on factors they can't control - ie, balance.
Lol, I'm a low platinum. Whose profile are you looking at? I'm the same level as the OP rofl. And for the record I am terrible at PvT - but you know why I'm terrible at PvT? Because I'm a bad player. Simple as that, and I accept it which means I can improve.
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I had a week of trying to use tanks against P , I got Demoted :/ So now i just build more bunkers it seems to at least get me to the mid game ^ ^
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I think the problem is that there are a lot of Terran players whining about not being able to compete with a maxed out Protoss, even though it takes micro mistakes from a Terran to lose in a 200/200 vs 200/200 battle (not to mention Toss units cost a LOT more to replenish). It's HARDER for Terran, IMO, but if you play right, you'll be able to win. In the mid-game balance is pretty even and there's a lot of stuff that Protoss and Terran can do to each other. Early-game still favours Terran, but Protoss have gotten very good at dealing with it. Now that Terran players are playing more late-game they just need to do more of it so they can get better. It's actually impossible for Toss to make lots of chargelots (which are scary) and lots of Colossi, because you need Stalkers (which are rubbish) to protect them. If Toss goes Chargelot-HT-Colossi, then the vikings can basically kill the Colossi for free and EMP will take out the HT + all shields then you kite the zealots to death. Now of course that's a lot easier said than done but if done right there's not a hell of a lot Protoss can do about it. Of course if you are already behind and Protoss has spent 2000 more resources on his army as well as having better upgrades then you might still lose, but if Protoss is behind they will DEFINITELY lose .
The other problem is that with stuff like the EMP nerfs (FYI this mostly just effects bad players) Terrans are drifting down a little to where they belong to on the ladder rather than having their MMR artificially inflated by Protoss players having given up on the matchup (due to no pro players winning in that matchup).
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Agree with OP. Forcefields colossus ht immortals etc all make attacking a protoss just siting in their base almost impossible (due to being able to forcefield choke mostly).
Protoss have numerous incredibly powerful 2 base all-ins where they can just walk up to terran and kill them and use the terrans own choke to their advantage. Terran has one 2 base all-in, the ghost timing attack, which can be countered by just spreading your units and not being greedy.
Also after a big engament when terran comes out with slightly more units, they can't just attack beacuse of warp ins. So the game continues and both players keep macroing. But if protoss comes out with slightly more units they just do a warp-in and gogogo while terran floods out units 1 at a time from barracks.
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If you are having trouble with the matchup, upload some replays, I'm sure a lot of people would help.
What you posted was, despite your protestations, a balance whine, or a balance whine disguised as a "game-design" whine. I see plenty of P's saying how hard it is to play PvT as well as plenty of T's struggling in TvP, and I reckon that means it's decently balanced. Unless you are top GM you shouldn't be winning that much anyway.
But I definitely agree with some of your points. MMMGV is the most consistent and versatile and complete composition to go for, Protoss AOEs and some timing pushes are effing powerful (not that EMPs are bad).
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On November 29 2011 10:57 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 10:46 Qibla wrote:On November 29 2011 10:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Obviously TvP is not broken in Protoss's favor, or else most of the best players in the entire world would not be Terran. Flawed logic. Race does not determine skill. I'm sure if MVP picked protoss or zerg. He'd still be best player in the world. Maybe not "flawed logic," but players like Mvp or MMA would surely do well with any race. I think it's also good to note that outside of Korea, the most successful players don't play Terran, but rather Zerg or Protoss. When was the last time a foreign Terran won a tournament with Koreans? When you talk about foreign Zerg or Protoss players, multiple ones come to mind; but I can't think of a Terran who won a tournament with Koreans for a while. His logic is not correct, and I think that if Blizzard continues to senselessly nerf Terran, then there may be problems, but with the current stage of the game (or the stage of the game a few patches ago), it is fairly balanced. This shouldn't be a balance thread though...
I think like in BW to play terran at a really top level is incredibly difficult so only the best koreans can utilize the race to it's maximum potential (in the current metagame, I'm not trying to say the maximum potential of terran has been reached.)
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For the guy who said he's played 33.3% of all games against every race...
I don't believe you.
There are many stats that show that the most played ladder race is Zerg, then Protoss then Terran. Maybe there is an anomaly or two between certain servers and certain leagues but that is the general trend.
Out of my sample of 232 games I've played:
43.1% vs Z
35.3% vs P
21.6% vs T
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On November 29 2011 09:40 Qibla wrote:
1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.)
Well, Blizzard did come to the rescue for Protoss. It wasn't a "New Build" that changed the MU, Blizzard did. Granted an adjustment was needed but it's entirely possible they went too far.
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This thread is just one big balance whine.. I really can't believe it was left open.
Let's see, I'm a diamond Terran myself and I have about an 80% win rate in TvP. Is this because Terran is in-fact imbalanced? No, it's because it's my best match-up. I lose all the time against zerg. Have something like a 40% win rate. Is the match-up imbalanced? No, I'm just bad at it. You have to get off this "I'm losing a lot so there just has to be something imbalanced" train of thought. You will never improve if you just take to the forums trying to "discuss" why you think your worst match-up is broken and imbalanced towards the other guy.
Anyways:
Since you specifically said "You have to keep making marauders" and you didn't provide a replay I'm just going to assume you are making too many. If someone does an immortal bust and you have too many marauders/not enough marines you WILL lose. Marauders aren't very good at killing immortals, if you couldn't tell.
If you are losing your whole army to storm/collos you are doing something wrong. Ghosts are a pretty good counter to ht. Most people on the diamond level don't even spread their units out so 2/3 EMPs will easily take out all the HT. If you don't have vikings to deal with collos you need to go back to TvP 101. It's all about army compositions, you can't just expect to stim once, a-move, and win.
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Honestly, the matchup seems to be relatively balanced at the higher level.
Even if it wasn't, the latest patch was very recent and people have not adjusted.
And TvP still has some room for exploration. For example, the person that mentioned having ravens as a late game gas dump for PDDs seems to have the right idea. Wouldn't mind seeing some more nukes, they can actually be relatively effective. Cheap in the lategame (you can spare the gas) and you won't see that huge wave of gateway reinforcements if the gates are unpowered (or maybe dead). Before anyone says "you don't play terran, nukes and ravens suck" I'm not saying they're going to revolutionize anything, but these are not fully explored and could have some potential and sway any tiny imbalances in Ps favor back to terran or just 50/50. Also, I have seen some players such as 4kWarden come up with non-standard gas-heavy builds in TvP and have a lot of success.
The point is, it's way too early to determine if there's a serious problem, and honestly, there doesn't even seem to be that much of a problem.
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On November 29 2011 11:05 Arkless wrote:
To all those saying buildings like bunkers and turrets are apart Of a defenders advantage you are so so very wrong. Defenders advantage refers to the act of your opponent having to walk there units across map. Which Protoss does not have to. I have agreed with the op for a long time personally. Warp in needs to go or have a Radius from the nexus where ur pylon has to be within a certin range. All you Protoss player that are saying as I mentioned above, aren't trying to contribute, they just want to qq.
Say what? Distance from your production facilities is one of a defender's advantages, but it is far from the only one. The high cost-efficiency of static defenses is certainly another of the defender's advantages, and it is pretty absurd to suggest otherwise.
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Northern Ireland117 Posts
Omg this thread is very de-railed, and everyone posting against the OP, is so hung up on the 'immortal bust' they have completely missed what this thread was about.
Consider this, a terran moves out with their first 2 initial drop ships since its probably the safest move out timming in TvP, you see they are teching to collosus you _cant_ attack in their choke or yoiu just loose to collosus you try and drop a bit but do minimal or no damage, so you pull back and take your 3rd macro more and hold the middle of the map, you try to get more dropships and start viking production you see the protoss moving out with a considerable army.
Its entirely easy to be pressed up against your choke and unable to move with collosus abusing their range ans splash vs you along with protoss getting instantly proxied reinforcements for free. Along with upgrade and macro advantages there is very little a terran can do in situations like these. you choose to fight or do anything to kill the colossus.
There is very little a terran can do to defend in mid game within their base terran _HAVE_ to engage a protoss army in the middle of the map to get a good engagement to defeat the army. Please stop treating this thread as a balance whine its nothing of the sort! If you still think its a balance whine your really missing the points put across and how the game works.
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People below the GSL level should never complain about balance.
There are thousands of terran players who can beat the protosses that you're being matched up against . . . so what's the point in whining about balance? If you simply improve your play, independent of any patches or whatever, you can beat the tosses that you're losing against.
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the best defense is a good offense.
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On November 29 2011 12:02 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 09:40 Qibla wrote:
1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.) Well, Blizzard did come to the rescue for Protoss. It wasn't a "New Build" that changed the MU, Blizzard did. Granted an adjustment was needed but it's entirely possible they went too far.
What was Blizzards adjustment? All I remember is them saving toss a couple minerals in upgrades, and reducing the emp radius slightly. Protoss have however been using warp prism harass all of a sudden, which has worked brilliantly, allowing the toss to expand more as the terran needs to stay turtled until they can get proper defense.
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On November 29 2011 12:33 redbrain wrote:
Omg this thread is very de-railed, and everyone posting against the OP, is so hung up on the 'immortal bust' they have completely missed what this thread was about.
Consider this, a terran moves out with their first 2 initial drop ships since its probably the safest move out timming in TvP, you see they are teching to collosus you _cant_ attack in their choke or yoiu just loose to collosus you try and drop a bit but do minimal or no damage, so you pull back and take your 3rd macro more and hold the middle of the map, you try to get more dropships and start viking production you see the protoss moving out with a considerable army.
Its entirely easy to be pressed up against your choke and unable to move with collosus abusing their range ans splash vs you along with protoss getting instantly proxied reinforcements for free. Along with upgrade and macro advantages there is very little a terran can do in situations like these. you choose to fight or do anything to kill the colossus.
There is very little a terran can do to defend in mid game within their base terran _HAVE_ to engage a protoss army in the middle of the map to get a good engagement to defeat the army. Please stop treating this thread as a balance whine its nothing of the sort! If you still think its a balance whine your really missing the points put across and how the game works.
It's a good observation, the Terran infantry army is at it's strongest in an open field where it cannot be pinned down to an engagement against its will, where it can easily spread out to avoid splash damage and where it can abuse its kiting abilities to the fullest.
So meet the Protoss in the open on your own terms. I'm not sure what your point is: the inverse is of course true for the Protoss, the best places to fight are at your own ramp or at your opponent's, anywhere in between is asking for a crushing defeat or for a deadly backstab drop.
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On November 29 2011 10:46 Qibla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 10:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Obviously TvP is not broken in Protoss's favor, or else most of the best players in the entire world would not be Terran. Flawed logic. Race does not determine skill. I'm sure if MVP picked protoss or zerg. He'd still be best player in the world.
I never said that race determines skill, but it's quite easy to make your argument when you know you never have to actually support it. The top players aren't going to be race-switching any time soon.
And I'm not the one who said that a match-up is broken. I merely pointed out that if what the OP said were true (that Terran was unplayable because TvP is so one-sided towards Protoss), we would see the top pro-gamers obviously choosing the *better* race (Protoss). When money is at stake, you play to win. And we simply don't see all the best players in the world playing Protoss and raping Terrans in Code S. There's a reason why we (tongue in cheek) refer to it as Code T and GomTvT.
If it were impossible for Terran to beat Protoss (which is what the OP is saying), you would see Protoss dominating at the highest levels, and you've almost never seen that in the history of SC2 (except for MC's solo GSL runs and a few other blips on the radar), let alone recently. What you instead have been seeing is a majority of Terrans at the top (peppered with some Zerg success, a la Nestea), and across the leagues you see that the match-ups are balanced, not that TvP is impossible for Terran.
And again, I point out that the OP has no data whatsoever backing up his balance whine, so this thread should be closed Basically, this is starting a flame war. It starts with people whining about how Terrans have it tough against Protoss (lol) and then others come and fire back about how that's ridiculous. Nothing constructive or new can really come out of this thread.
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On November 29 2011 13:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 10:46 Qibla wrote:On November 29 2011 10:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Obviously TvP is not broken in Protoss's favor, or else most of the best players in the entire world would not be Terran. Flawed logic. Race does not determine skill. I'm sure if MVP picked protoss or zerg. He'd still be best player in the world. I never said that race determines skill, but it's quite easy to make your argument when you know you never have to actually support it. The top players aren't going to be race-switching any time soon.
TLO just switched to Zerg. Morrow also switched. They are still pro, but haven't performed any better or worse after their switch, because that's what their skill level. Argument supported
If it were impossible for Terran to beat Protoss (which is what the OP is saying), you would see Protoss dominating at the highest levels, and you've almost never seen that in the history of SC2 (except for MC's solo GSL runs and a few other blips on the radar), let alone recently. What you instead have been seeing is a majority of Terrans at the top (peppered with some Zerg success, a la Nestea), and across the leagues you see that the match-ups are balanced, not that TvP is impossible for Terran.
To an extent what he is saying is true, though it only applies to a Diamond level player. The pro's have much better multitasking and mechanics, so are able to capitalize on the advantages Terran has as a race. A Diamond level player doesn't have these skills, but an equivalent skill level Protoss player has the skills to be able to abuse Protoss' strengths.
Basically Protoss is easier to play, but the skill cap is lower, so a bad Protoss player should beat a bad Terran player, and a pro Terran player should beat a pro Protoss player.
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Im a T player i'm horrible at TvP but i realise that im not a pro, i cant expect to use the build a pro does and be able to execute it perfectly and then complain when i fail. I believe 100% that apart from the emp nerf and the immortal range change that the last few patches have been a placebo for protoss. The changes have honestly just been a "protoss how bout u fucking upgrade your units and then see them roll shit" thrown in their face. Also Oz in my opinion is THE best protoss in the world (followed closely by hero because of his insane multitasking). Oz has shown the true strength of not just quick tech switch but using both collosus and HT at the same time perfectly.
Then theres the silly people who say the whole "upgrade cost change makes u have 1 more unit" its not the actual cost going back into the army that was the change it was the ability to get it earlier and even that doesn't make a big difference, as i said before its just a placebo to make protoss do it. I also don't think HT should be able to be sniped but thats a personal thing.
What i wanna see from terran is a banshee late game gas dump(I wanna start trying this out too cuz im pathetic at TvP). Especially since most and pretty much all terrans should, be getting air attack upgrades already for viking. Banshees for pylon harrass to slow their remax capability, even for main battles, scan and kill obs quickly with viking (easier said then done).
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On November 29 2011 12:39 Qibla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 12:02 mlspmatt wrote:On November 29 2011 09:40 Qibla wrote:
1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.) Well, Blizzard did come to the rescue for Protoss. It wasn't a "New Build" that changed the MU, Blizzard did. Granted an adjustment was needed but it's entirely possible they went too far. What was Blizzards adjustment? All I remember is them saving toss a couple minerals in upgrades, and reducing the emp radius slightly. Protoss have however been using warp prism harass all of a sudden, which has worked brilliantly, allowing the toss to expand more as the terran needs to stay turtled until they can get proper defense.
Someone trusts the Day9 Daily a bit too much. Warpprism usage is not yet common at very high levels (in PvT at least), it's still quite stylistic. Blizzard buffs did help though. The new deadly protoss style is just double forge turtle, nothing else, combined with new Protoss favored maps like Daybreak and Calm before the Storm.
For example, the 1 rax FE into ghost timing is basically killed at this point, for all these reasons. As Protoss, what threatens you the most outside of all ins are drops. Defend these, and you're in a very good position for the late game with your faster upgrades (faster cause of chrono, not the buff, which did not much actually).
PvT balance on ladder should not have changed that much, it's the new maps at the GSL that are tipping the balance towards Protoss more than anything else.
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I play both races, since the 1/1/1 is somewhat taken into account with some nerfs/buffs here and there, I find that Protoss has heaps of strategic attacks/all ins, I dont mind playing PvT but i hate TvP. I like the mechanics of P, warp ins, archons/dts/hts, force fields and zealots., not only the metagame has changed but the nerfs and buffs to each race has made this matchup pretty crazy. ranging form little things like medivac speed (stalkers can chase them down!) to amulet nerf.
i guess its all adding up to change the matchup, but we will evolve once again.
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Hmm protoss don't really have much defender advantage, unless you are talking up hiding behind a choke. if Terran has a bigger army at any point of time, they can drop and do multi prong harrass. Protoss units are designed to be equally strong in both offense and defense due to warp in. But sentry do help in defending a choke against Terran. But at any point of time Protoss can't really cut units and tech without knowing terran army size. Terran can really turtle up behind bunkers. 1 base play with heavy teching 111 and holding your ramp with 1 bunker is a very good example. Bunkers and repairs are huge defender advantage. Collosus poking at bunker can be easily stop by Vikings. You could afford to send 1 or 2 dropships while holding with bunker. I don't see why you say protoss has good defender advantage. While it might be true, I just don't see how Terran does not have it. I always thought they have the BEST defender advantage. Turrets are pretty cheap too.
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On November 29 2011 15:08 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 12:39 Qibla wrote:On November 29 2011 12:02 mlspmatt wrote:On November 29 2011 09:40 Qibla wrote:
1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.) Well, Blizzard did come to the rescue for Protoss. It wasn't a "New Build" that changed the MU, Blizzard did. Granted an adjustment was needed but it's entirely possible they went too far. What was Blizzards adjustment? All I remember is them saving toss a couple minerals in upgrades, and reducing the emp radius slightly. Protoss have however been using warp prism harass all of a sudden, which has worked brilliantly, allowing the toss to expand more as the terran needs to stay turtled until they can get proper defense. Someone trusts the Day9 Daily a bit too much. Warpprism usage is not yet common at very high levels (in PvT at least), it's still quite stylistic. Blizzard buffs did help though. The new deadly protoss style is just double forge turtle, nothing else, combined with new Protoss favored maps like Daybreak and Calm before the Storm. For example, the 1 rax FE into ghost timing is basically killed at this point, for all these reasons. As Protoss, what threatens you the most outside of all ins are drops. Defend these, and you're in a very good position for the late game with your faster upgrades (faster cause of chrono, not the buff, which did not much actually). PvT balance on ladder should not have changed that much, it's the new maps at the GSL that are tipping the balance towards Protoss more than anything else.
Haven't watched the daily in months tbh. Just what I've noticed form play on ladder, that WP usage is very common now, at least in the games I've played.
And yes, that was my point. Protoss buff, was very minor, basically non existent. It was a change in build that has changed the state of TvP. Not a buff, or nerf. Maps notwithstanding because I was talking about ladder all along.
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Versus the immortal push, he's eitehr taking a very very late nexus, or not getting one at all. It's an all in. You CAN NOT DEFEND your natural and win. You absolutely have to go up into your main and defend your ramp. Lift off your nat and fly it to a island or just keep it in your base. While defending ramp, then you can use drops to harass him. He shouldn't have enough units to cover your ramp and stop the drops.
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both races need better defender advantage late game, so one mistake don't instantly gg you
early and mid game seems fine
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is this thread a troll? Terrans have the best defensive capacity of all the races.. think about how zerg feels about these warp gate all-ins and sentry drops..
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Right now, Terrans are not utilizing Planetary Fortresses and Bunkers (which can be salvaged btw) as much as they should when the game goes very late.
Where Protoss has the advantage of being able to reinforce their army much faster, Terrans have the ability to heavily fortify a key position. This dynamic I think is still evolving and we'll see more of it soon.
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On November 29 2011 12:02 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 09:40 Qibla wrote:
1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.) Well, Blizzard did come to the rescue for Protoss. It wasn't a "New Build" that changed the MU, Blizzard did. Granted an adjustment was needed but it's entirely possible they went too far.
Explain to me how a two minor changes to upgrade costs and EMP radius broke the match-up?
The upgrade buffs did absolutely nothing to change Protoss timing attacks since the timings of the upgrades remained exactly the same. The ONLY thing which changed is that now Protoss can get an extra zealot + sentry or two on top of their upgrades - so now double forge gateway styles are mildly safer to pull off.
The EMP radius, at least in my own experience, has made absolutely no difference at all. The EMP now covers the same area as storm and, given the fact that Terrans were already building 8+ ghosts and just blanketing the Protoss army with EMPs, this has made absolutely no tangible difference whatsoever.
Where Protoss has the advantage of being able to reinforce their army much faster, Terrans have the ability to heavily fortify a key position. This dynamic I think is still evolving and we'll see more of it soon.
But there's more to it than that. Warp-ins are balanced by the fact that gateway units are the least cost-effective tier 1-1.5 units in the game. They need to be backed up by splash damage, which cannot be instantly reinforced, to stand a chance against MMM
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On November 29 2011 14:55 Qibla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 13:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 29 2011 10:46 Qibla wrote:On November 29 2011 10:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Obviously TvP is not broken in Protoss's favor, or else most of the best players in the entire world would not be Terran. Flawed logic. Race does not determine skill. I'm sure if MVP picked protoss or zerg. He'd still be best player in the world. I never said that race determines skill, but it's quite easy to make your argument when you know you never have to actually support it. The top players aren't going to be race-switching any time soon. TLO just switched to Zerg. Morrow also switched. They are still pro, but haven't performed any better or worse after their switch, because that's what their skill level. Argument supported Show nested quote +If it were impossible for Terran to beat Protoss (which is what the OP is saying), you would see Protoss dominating at the highest levels, and you've almost never seen that in the history of SC2 (except for MC's solo GSL runs and a few other blips on the radar), let alone recently. What you instead have been seeing is a majority of Terrans at the top (peppered with some Zerg success, a la Nestea), and across the leagues you see that the match-ups are balanced, not that TvP is impossible for Terran. To an extent what he is saying is true, though it only applies to a Diamond level player. The pro's have much better multitasking and mechanics, so are able to capitalize on the advantages Terran has as a race. A Diamond level player doesn't have these skills, but an equivalent skill level Protoss player has the skills to be able to abuse Protoss' strengths. Basically Protoss is easier to play, but the skill cap is lower, so a bad Protoss player should beat a bad Terran player, and a pro Terran player should beat a pro Protoss player.
1. Except TLO and Morrow aren't even remotely close to being the best players in the world, so those "examples" are ridiculous.
2. Except the skill ceiling of each race hasn't even been remotely approached yet, so it's silly to say that a pro Terran player *should* beat a pro Protoss player unless TvP is completely imbalanced towards Terran. And I don't feel like whining about imbalance >.>
Personally, I'm done with this thread. Have a wonderful night
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned but, Gateway units are less cost-effective than Barracks units in general so once Terran caught up in upgrades in the late game, they would still be in great shape.
And in regards to warp-in, Terran has PFs, Sensor Towers, and Mules to free up supply for more army. I just don't see how things are broken for Terran here.
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On November 29 2011 04:14 Flonomenalz wrote:
Protoss could say the exact same thing with late game Terran armies EMP'ing everything with 10 full energy cloaked ghosts.
I totally know what you mean I feel like EMP needs a 44% nerf...
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On November 29 2011 15:49 Crysack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 12:02 mlspmatt wrote:On November 29 2011 09:40 Qibla wrote:
1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.) Well, Blizzard did come to the rescue for Protoss. It wasn't a "New Build" that changed the MU, Blizzard did. Granted an adjustment was needed but it's entirely possible they went too far. Explain to me how a two minor changes to upgrade costs and EMP radius broke the match-up? The upgrade buffs did absolutely nothing to change Protoss timing attacks since the timings of the upgrades remained exactly the same. The ONLY thing which changed is that now Protoss can get an extra zealot + sentry or two on top of their upgrades - so now double forge gateway styles are mildly safer to pull off. The EMP radius, at least in my own experience, has made absolutely no difference at all. The EMP now covers the same area as storm and, given the fact that Terrans were already building 8+ ghosts and just blanketing the Protoss army with EMPs, this has made absolutely no tangible difference whatsoever. Show nested quote + Where Protoss has the advantage of being able to reinforce their army much faster, Terrans have the ability to heavily fortify a key position. This dynamic I think is still evolving and we'll see more of it soon. But there's more to it than that. Warp-ins are balanced by the fact that gateway units are the least cost-effective tier 1-1.5 units in the game. They need to be backed up by splash damage, which cannot be instantly reinforced, to stand a chance against MMM
Why doesn't anyone understand what this dude wrote. And to reiterate, Protoss tier 1-1.5 is PURPOSELY weaker, to negate the fact they can warp-in, but since when defending warp-in matters very little, Protoss actually have the weaker defenders advantage of the two, there was a HUGE post with facts about this already, too lazy to find it, edit later. So many raging fail Terrans in here claiming Terran has the weaker defenders advantage, TL has really gone downhill with all the false claims.
update: found the post for the people too dense to understand Defenders Advantage http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=263636
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On November 29 2011 04:32 archonOOid wrote:
I agree pvt is a boring matchup with really powerful spells that can turn the tide really fast which has resulted in another thread about pvt passivity. We can only hope for HotS at this moment in time.
Exactly. Your army gets stormed at a bad time GG.
Your army gets EMP'd before you FF/Storm GG, but this isn't as big after the nerf, but it's still huge
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On November 29 2011 17:25 deadmau wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 15:49 Crysack wrote:On November 29 2011 12:02 mlspmatt wrote:On November 29 2011 09:40 Qibla wrote:
1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.) Well, Blizzard did come to the rescue for Protoss. It wasn't a "New Build" that changed the MU, Blizzard did. Granted an adjustment was needed but it's entirely possible they went too far. Explain to me how a two minor changes to upgrade costs and EMP radius broke the match-up? The upgrade buffs did absolutely nothing to change Protoss timing attacks since the timings of the upgrades remained exactly the same. The ONLY thing which changed is that now Protoss can get an extra zealot + sentry or two on top of their upgrades - so now double forge gateway styles are mildly safer to pull off. The EMP radius, at least in my own experience, has made absolutely no difference at all. The EMP now covers the same area as storm and, given the fact that Terrans were already building 8+ ghosts and just blanketing the Protoss army with EMPs, this has made absolutely no tangible difference whatsoever. Where Protoss has the advantage of being able to reinforce their army much faster, Terrans have the ability to heavily fortify a key position. This dynamic I think is still evolving and we'll see more of it soon. But there's more to it than that. Warp-ins are balanced by the fact that gateway units are the least cost-effective tier 1-1.5 units in the game. They need to be backed up by splash damage, which cannot be instantly reinforced, to stand a chance against MMM Why doesn't anyone understand what this dude wrote. And to reiterate, Protoss tier 1-1.5 is PURPOSELY weaker, to negate the fact they can warp-in, but since when defending warp-in matters very little, Protoss actually have the weaker defenders advantage of the two, there was a HUGE post with facts about this already, too lazy to find it, edit later. So many idiots in here claiming Terran has the weaker defenders advantage, god so many noobs on TL now.
Defenders advantage and early game isn't a problem in TvP this guy just doesn't know how to defend them. Protoss is really strong in the late game with the warp inns as you said they are made to be week unless protoss hits a timming his army is weak and a protoss can only defend with forcefields.
I myself feel like I've got a free win if a protoss tries to 4 gate me or 3 gate robo.
Isn't the new metagame for protoss that's allowing them to take wins lately very passive?
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That appears to be the trend, but there's not yet enough evidence.
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Everybody agrees that TvP is not a well balanced matchup. Even if the numbers are close, the way the game plays, there is a huge advantage for Terran at one time and for Protoss at another. People are having trouble because they are not abusing their edges well enough.
As for OP, I encourage you to throw 20 games of vT and vZ. Your mmr is so fucked up that you are meeting Protosses too good for you. Otherwise get practice partners and learn with them, of course if you can get equal skill level opponents that is. In a way, you are as imbalanced as the matchup!
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On November 29 2011 17:42 50bani wrote:
Everybody agrees that TvP is not a well balanced matchup. Even if the numbers are close, the way the game plays, there is a huge advantage for Terran at one time and for Protoss at another. People are having trouble because they are not abusing their edges well enough.
As for OP, I encourage you to throw 20 games of vT and vZ. Your mmr is so fucked up that you are meeting Protosses too good for you. Otherwise get practice partners and learn with them, of course if you can get equal skill level opponents that is. In a way, you are as imbalanced as the matchup!
Who is agreeing? A while ago it was extremely balanced. It was only when Korean Terrans started EMP'ing way better that Protoss fell behind, and now Protoss cracked a new build to keep up, through upgrades. The meta game for PvT has shifted drastically the last 6-8 months with the advent of each new build. Theres no way you can blanket the entire match-up with such a generalization that it's not a balanced match up when the 'perceived balance' fluctuates so much.
Ultimately, skill level has dictated the match-up, and has given plenty of room for both Terrans and Protoss to win through innovation, sheer mechanics, and simply being better- is a better blanket statement, IMO.
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I wouldn't say TvP is heavily imbalanced towards either side, but what I dislike about playing it (as Terran) is how the match will 99% of the time never be close.
Either I'll get a great concave, moneyshot EMPs and kite the Zealots properly and steamroll over the Protoss army like it wasn't even there.
Or, I get demolished by good Force Fields, well microed Colossi and Storms with Chargelots up front.
Nearly always it's one big battle and that is it, either Terran hulk smashes the Protoss army or the Protoss army hulk smashes the Terran army.
EMP, Storm, Force Fields, Stim/Stutter, Colossi, Vikings all turn TvP engagements into a win or lose the game engagement.
I brought MMM/Ghost but no Vikings against a Colossi army? GG for Terran.
Protoss brought Gateway/HT to my MMM/Ghost army? GG for Protoss.
The game can be decided so fast and harshly in TvP that it feels hard to learn much from being hulk smashed (other than that you didn't bring enough of Critical Unit X) or doing the hulk smashing.
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OMG GET IT TOGETHER STUPID TERRANS!
Since the fucking beta, you have been on top of every matchup, now when your retardet all ins dont work as well anymore you start whinning about imbalance.
Guys in diamond
You wanna know why you lose all the time? Because you do nothing, NOTHING. Half of diamond players dont use medivacs for drops, but just let them save of energy so they can get Fedbacked by the Templar.
Second, have you heard of the ghost? Even thougth the ghost have been nerfed, it is still strong as shit, and can demolish a toss army, with a few good EMP's.
Exploit your race Plzzz, like you told toss when we where complaining, agression is the answer.
Like a fellow toss said, drops at 200/200 suply can do MASSIVE damage, attack 3 different places at once, is hard for the toss.
Cause yeaah, with no real skill(no one has in diamond) you cant deal with 200/200 deathball, it takes skille to kite marine marauders, vikings, and land EMP's
Therefor you must hurt the toss, instead of just sitting back on your ass.
Aggresion is the key.
Damn it pisses me of when a terran makes a QQ thread. You have never had under 50% in any matchup, and the second you get in a little trouble, you all start whine like crazy, get some skills, and exsploit your race.
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On November 29 2011 17:52 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 17:42 50bani wrote:
Everybody agrees that TvP is not a well balanced matchup. Even if the numbers are close, the way the game plays, there is a huge advantage for Terran at one time and for Protoss at another. People are having trouble because they are not abusing their edges well enough.
As for OP, I encourage you to throw 20 games of vT and vZ. Your mmr is so fucked up that you are meeting Protosses too good for you. Otherwise get practice partners and learn with them, of course if you can get equal skill level opponents that is. In a way, you are as imbalanced as the matchup! Who is agreeing? A while ago it was extremely balanced. It was only when Korean Terrans started EMP'ing way better that Protoss fell behind, and now Protoss cracked a new build to keep up, through upgrades. The meta game for PvT has shifted drastically the last 6-8 months with the advent of each new build. Theres no way you can blanket the entire match-up with such a generalization that it's not a balanced match up when the 'perceived balance' fluctuates so much. Ultimately, skill level has dictated the match-up, and has given plenty of room for both Terrans and Protoss to win through innovation, sheer mechanics, and simply being better- is a better blanket statement, IMO.
I wouldn't give Protoss all the credit of "Finding a new build" that changed the match up drastically. It was Blizzard who changed it with the constant Protoss Buffs and constant Terran nerfs. If people can't see this MU is disgustingly broken right now, this SC2 community is much more biased against Terran then what I originally thought.
I don't care what people think is balanced at that high prestige professional level of SC2. When I play a game where I clearly out macro my opponent, money is low, I stutter step, get at least mediocre emps off I expect to get much better results against a Toss who is floating at least 500 - 700 minerals that just 1 A's me.
Yeah, sure Terran will find a build. But I'm kinda worried right now, we have our top level Terrans playing 30+ games p/day and studying it. Yet, still nothing new that is effective.
All I can say for fellow Terrans is you can either;
1. Learn variations of the 1-1-1 and perfect those builds down to a T. Don't let the game get past 15 minutes.
2. Keep trying to work on that perfect micro, but be prepared to lose a shitload of games even if it seems like you are completely out playing your Protoss opponent.
People might accuse me of "oh you have a bad attitude herpa derpa." That's great, you keep thinking that. But I like to at least have a snowballs chance of winning in the late game against a Protoss.
And in reply to Kawaiirice (I love your streams bro and have learned HEAPS), but I find it offensive when I have my hands racing across the keyboard just to try and keep up with a Protoss build that my 6 year old brother can do.
I'm out and done with this thread, all of you Tosses can keep coming in trying to back up you pathetic Chargelot/Archon composition saying it's not OP and takes skill to utilise.
Peace,
Your best friend ZorBa.G xoxoxox
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On November 29 2011 18:52 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 17:52 Tyrant0 wrote:On November 29 2011 17:42 50bani wrote:
Everybody agrees that TvP is not a well balanced matchup. Even if the numbers are close, the way the game plays, there is a huge advantage for Terran at one time and for Protoss at another. People are having trouble because they are not abusing their edges well enough.
As for OP, I encourage you to throw 20 games of vT and vZ. Your mmr is so fucked up that you are meeting Protosses too good for you. Otherwise get practice partners and learn with them, of course if you can get equal skill level opponents that is. In a way, you are as imbalanced as the matchup! Who is agreeing? A while ago it was extremely balanced. It was only when Korean Terrans started EMP'ing way better that Protoss fell behind, and now Protoss cracked a new build to keep up, through upgrades. The meta game for PvT has shifted drastically the last 6-8 months with the advent of each new build. Theres no way you can blanket the entire match-up with such a generalization that it's not a balanced match up when the 'perceived balance' fluctuates so much. Ultimately, skill level has dictated the match-up, and has given plenty of room for both Terrans and Protoss to win through innovation, sheer mechanics, and simply being better- is a better blanket statement, IMO. I wouldn't give Protoss all the credit of "Finding a new build" that changed the match up drastically. It was Blizzard who changed it with the constant Protoss Buffs and constant Terran nerfs. If people can't see this MU is disgustingly broken right now, this SC2 community is much more biased against Terran then what I originally thought. I don't care what people think is balanced at that high prestige professional level of SC2. When I play a game where I clearly out macro my opponent, money is low, I stutter step, get at least mediocre emps off I expect to get much better results against a Toss who is floating at least 500 - 700 minerals that just 1 A's me. Yeah, sure Terran will find a build. But I'm kinda worried right now, we have our top level Terrans playing 30+ games p/day and studying it. Yet, still nothing new that is effective. All I can say for fellow Terrans is you can either; 1. Learn variations of the 1-1-1 and perfect those builds down to a T. Don't let the game get past 15 minutes. 2. Keep trying to work on that perfect micro, but be prepared to lost a shitload of games even if it seems like you are completely out playing your Protoss opponent. People might accuse me of "oh you have a bad attitude herpa derpa." That's great, you keep thinking that. But I like to at least have a snowballs chance of winning in the late game against a Protoss. And in reply to Kawaiirice (I love your streams bro and have learned HEAPS), but I find it offensive when I have my hands racing across the keyboard just to try and keep up with a Protoss build that my 6 year old brother can do. I'm out and done with this thread, all of you Tosses can keep coming in trying to back up you pathetic Chargelot/Archon composition saying it's not OP and takes skill to utilise. Peace, Your best friend ZorBa.G xoxoxox
When did I say it was all protoss? Your post reeks of shameless bias.
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ForGG from BW!
lol wrong thread sorry
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On November 29 2011 18:52 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 17:52 Tyrant0 wrote:On November 29 2011 17:42 50bani wrote:
Everybody agrees that TvP is not a well balanced matchup. Even if the numbers are close, the way the game plays, there is a huge advantage for Terran at one time and for Protoss at another. People are having trouble because they are not abusing their edges well enough.
As for OP, I encourage you to throw 20 games of vT and vZ. Your mmr is so fucked up that you are meeting Protosses too good for you. Otherwise get practice partners and learn with them, of course if you can get equal skill level opponents that is. In a way, you are as imbalanced as the matchup! Who is agreeing? A while ago it was extremely balanced. It was only when Korean Terrans started EMP'ing way better that Protoss fell behind, and now Protoss cracked a new build to keep up, through upgrades. The meta game for PvT has shifted drastically the last 6-8 months with the advent of each new build. Theres no way you can blanket the entire match-up with such a generalization that it's not a balanced match up when the 'perceived balance' fluctuates so much. Ultimately, skill level has dictated the match-up, and has given plenty of room for both Terrans and Protoss to win through innovation, sheer mechanics, and simply being better- is a better blanket statement, IMO. I wouldn't give Protoss all the credit of "Finding a new build" that changed the match up drastically. It was Blizzard who changed it with the constant Protoss Buffs and constant Terran nerfs. If people can't see this MU is disgustingly broken right now, this SC2 community is much more biased against Terran then what I originally thought. I don't care what people think is balanced at that high prestige professional level of SC2. When I play a game where I clearly out macro my opponent, money is low, I stutter step, get at least mediocre emps off I expect to get much better results against a Toss who is floating at least 500 - 700 minerals that just 1 A's me. Yeah, sure Terran will find a build. But I'm kinda worried right now, we have our top level Terrans playing 30+ games p/day and studying it. Yet, still nothing new that is effective. All I can say for fellow Terrans is you can either; 1. Learn variations of the 1-1-1 and perfect those builds down to a T. Don't let the game get past 15 minutes. 2. Keep trying to work on that perfect micro, but be prepared to lose a shitload of games even if it seems like you are completely out playing your Protoss opponent. People might accuse me of "oh you have a bad attitude herpa derpa." That's great, you keep thinking that. But I like to at least have a snowballs chance of winning in the late game against a Protoss. And in reply to Kawaiirice (I love your streams bro and have learned HEAPS), but I find it offensive when I have my hands racing across the keyboard just to try and keep up with a Protoss build that my 6 year old brother can do. I'm out and done with this thread, all of you Tosses can keep coming in trying to back up you pathetic Chargelot/Archon composition saying it's not OP and takes skill to utilise. Peace, Your best friend ZorBa.G xoxoxox
how are the pro terrans having a problem? (looking at GSL they seem to be doing more then fine)
and you really think the game should be balanced around your incompetence instead of the highest level of play?
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Sweden33719 Posts
What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess
... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore.
MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees.
Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are.......
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Finally someone who nearly noone in this forum can disagree with says something about the amount of different all ins terran can die to early game.
THANK YOU.
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THIS IS PRETTY CLEAR
Protoses dosn't want to admit that is fucking broken and they say that our allins are broken, just because they dont know how to stop it.
Terran can't win a single late game, thats why we are alliners, and we can't win against good protoss because EVERY allin can be stopped with fast robo.
SO:
Close this thread, pointless to discuss something like this, expansion should fix it.
PS: this is not just a balance problem, its a game design problem, it coudln't be fixed with patches widthout making terran / protoss OP or UP.
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On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are.......
Dude, I like you and all, and your achievements as a player is impressive, but you'd probably be much better of with a different mindset than that. Work with what you have available yourself, theres a lot of "joke mechanics" in all races.
Not to mention an average user would seriously risk getting banned posting shit like that. And even if the post it isnt bannable alone, you're hardly making TL a better place where calm and constructive discussions can take place by encouraging such "quality posts".
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On November 29 2011 20:55 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are....... Dude, I like you and all, and your achievements as a player is impressive, but you'd probably be much better of with a different mindset than that. Work with what you have available yourself, theres a lot of "joke mechanics" in all races. Not to mention an average user would seriously risk getting banned posting shit like that. And even if the post it isnt bannable alone, you're hardly making TL a better place where calm and constructive discussions can take place by encouraging such "quality posts".
He is just saying what he thinks, and he is the better player here so you should: read, learn and shut up.
I dont know why that post is "baneable" nor why it "hardly making TL better", there you have a progamers opinion about current TvP state, its great to read posts like that.
And yes, im terran, i feel just like jinro, also i saw jinro streaming a LOT and i feel like him when he get destroyed lategame.
Also, its fairly true that terran is more powerfull at midgame, but i dont want to play all my game "allin" style anymore, i prefer to lose and try to win a macro long game. Im also trying to improve my multitasking and macro mechanics to do what MVP does, but trust me, its not EASY.
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Vatican City State334 Posts
I'm just not sure what to do TvP anymore, it's so much harder compared to what it was before the recent Protoss buffs. If you look at the statistics, Terran win rates are declining rapidly... almost down to as low as 50% in some regions.
User was warned for this post
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On November 29 2011 21:10 MurdeR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 20:55 Kreb wrote:On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are....... Dude, I like you and all, and your achievements as a player is impressive, but you'd probably be much better of with a different mindset than that. Work with what you have available yourself, theres a lot of "joke mechanics" in all races. Not to mention an average user would seriously risk getting banned posting shit like that. And even if the post it isnt bannable alone, you're hardly making TL a better place where calm and constructive discussions can take place by encouraging such "quality posts". He is just saying what he thinks, and he is the better player here so you should: read, learn and shut up. I dont know why that post is "baneable" nor why it "hardly making TL better", there you have a progamers opinion about current TvP state, its great to read posts like that. And yes, im terran, i feel just like jinro, also i saw jinro streaming a LOT and i feel like him when he get destroyed lategame. Also, its fairly true that terran is more powerfull at midgame, but i dont want to play all my game "allin" style anymore, i prefer to lose and try to win a macro long game. Im also trying to improve my multitasking and macro mechanics to do what MVP does, but trust me, its not EASY.
-Go into random LR thread of choice after you've watched a late game PvT go in the favor of a P.
-Post "late game protoss is such a joke"
I'll give you about 50/50 chance of getting straight up banned or just receive a warning. Repeat the above and you WILL be banned. I encourage you to try if you don't believe me.
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On November 29 2011 21:16 AnalThermometer wrote:
I'm just not sure what to do TvP anymore, it's so much harder compared to what it was before the recent Protoss buffs. If you look at the statistics, Terran win rates are declining rapidly... almost down to as low as 50% in some regions.
Oh we are all sorry, lets get it up to 59% again, that serems more balanced
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On November 29 2011 22:12 Dusen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 21:16 AnalThermometer wrote:
I'm just not sure what to do TvP anymore, it's so much harder compared to what it was before the recent Protoss buffs. If you look at the statistics, Terran win rates are declining rapidly... almost down to as low as 50% in some regions. Oh we are all sorry, lets get it up to 59% again, that serems more balanced
That rate strikes me as being in large part due to the prevalence of the marine tank banshee build that seemed unstoppable for a few months. As it has been noted many times over in this thread, there are periods in the game where either race has a large advantage over the other which can lead to one side getting dominated.
My idea is to ask the question "why was everybody so eager to do a marine tank banshee push?" Obviously because it had a really high success rate, but I figure it is also because playing out a long game TvP is really difficult, and more volatile than the other match ups. I know personally I'd rather do a one base all-in most of the time rather than play a long game against protoss because I find the matchup to be boring and frustrating to play.
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So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work!
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On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are.......
Early game is pretty balanced. Stim+marines and you are safe. CC first is posible as Nexus 1rst. 1 gate FE as 2 rax FE. Both can go 2 gax/3gate expo into press. And both have all ins from 1 base, being 1-1-1 the most efficient of all.
Midgame terran is stronger. P may have 5/6 gates timmings or 2 collosi timming, but once 2 orbitals kick in + the huge raiding options, good terrans usually get a eco edge. Also T have nice timmings too, ghost, mmm, 2 base polt, but P do not have those big raiding options to get ahead AND go for the 3rd. I agree that once the P eco allows collosy/templar+storm switch and 3/3 chargelots, the game is in P favor. But allow that is a T mistake, considering the huge raiding options + mule edge, both in midgame.
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On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work!
That's not at all what I said. I said the matchup is frustrating because it is so volatile throughout the game, and that might be a big contributing reason that people were so keen on doing their 1-1-1, not that it is imbalanced. It just isn't interesting to play or watch in my opinion. It is just frustrating.
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On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work!
Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic......
If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again.......
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
Current T v P is heavily P favoured in the high-end scene. Bound to happen once protoss realised up-zealots were not bad against a heavy marauder based army. (if the terran goes too marine centred, AOE is going to turn it into bloody goo anyway).
As the maps got larger, the chance of you doing macro play as a toss increases, while warp-gate technology = early game Protoss all-ins/timing attacks is the same on ANY map regardless of distance.
Warp gates going to need a fix one day in the professional scene
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Personally, TvP is by far my best MU. I have been having much success with banshee play. I would start off using either Yoshi's Build or Synystyr's Build. These builds are great by themselves and teach you how to use banshees in the MU. Through personal preference I now use my own hybrid build with a midgame of 2 rax (1 reactor, 1 tech) and 3 tech-starports off of 2 base. I attack ~14-15 min with a bunch of 1-1 infantry, ~8-10 banshees with more en route, 2 ravens, and sometimes a thor (if I opened hellion drop) while taking my third and dropping 3 more rax and ghost academy.
The banshee provides such awesome firepower, mobility, checkmate positions and en masse the protoss is forced to change not only his unit mix but also his philosophy on the matchup.
Brother Terrans, I urge you to experiment with mass banshee play. I recommend starting with one of the 2 linked builds above until you get the philosophy down. After that, experiment with various unit mixes (I prefer a mix of bio, you could use mech, or straight air).
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On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again.......
Didnt Terrans need 1 year to understand that a unit that can remove ~50% of a units hp instandly is actually pretty good?
I fear the day that terrans actually start to use mech units (not pure mech) and banshees...
Anyways I think we should at least wait a bit more til we complain, its also a metagame thing right now.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On November 29 2011 22:44 jrdn wrote:Personally, TvP is by far my best MU. I have been having much success with banshee play. I would start off using either Yoshi's Build or Synystyr's Build. These builds are great by themselves and teach you how to use banshees in the MU. Through personal preference I now use my own hybrid build with a midgame of 2 rax (1 reactor, 1 tech) and 3 tech-starports off of 2 base. I attack ~14-15 min with a bunch of 1-1 infantry, ~8-10 banshees with more en route, 2 ravens, and sometimes a thor (if I opened hellion drop) while taking my third and dropping 3 more rax and ghost academy. The banshee provides such awesome firepower, mobility, checkmate positions and en masse the protoss is forced to change not only his unit mix but also his philosophy on the matchup. Brother Terrans, I urge you to experiment with mass banshee play. I recommend starting with one of the 2 linked builds above until you get the philosophy down. After that, experiment with various unit mixes (I prefer a mix of bio, you could use mech, or straight air). To quote a BW pro, when Moletrap/others showed  Leta SC2, Leta went "0___________0 Banshees are soooooooooooooo good!!!!!!!!"
yep, abuse banshees+ravens to counter stalker anti-air, or thor armor timings with SCV repairs. Both are combinations which can be totally annoying for Toss' to deal with
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On November 29 2011 22:50 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... Didnt Terrans need 1 year to understand that a unit that can remove ~50% of a units hp instandly is actually pretty good? I fear the day that terrans actually start to use mech units (not pure mech) and banshees... Anyways I think we should at least wait a bit more til we complain, its also a metagame thing right now.
No they didnt? And dont fear mech because its beyond horrible and after thorzain used thors to win 2 games it took blizzard 1 week to nerf thors into oblivion so its obvious they hate to see anything but bio in TvP and will make sure it doesnt happen.
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On November 29 2011 18:52 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 17:52 Tyrant0 wrote:On November 29 2011 17:42 50bani wrote:
Everybody agrees that TvP is not a well balanced matchup. Even if the numbers are close, the way the game plays, there is a huge advantage for Terran at one time and for Protoss at another. People are having trouble because they are not abusing their edges well enough.
As for OP, I encourage you to throw 20 games of vT and vZ. Your mmr is so fucked up that you are meeting Protosses too good for you. Otherwise get practice partners and learn with them, of course if you can get equal skill level opponents that is. In a way, you are as imbalanced as the matchup! Who is agreeing? A while ago it was extremely balanced. It was only when Korean Terrans started EMP'ing way better that Protoss fell behind, and now Protoss cracked a new build to keep up, through upgrades. The meta game for PvT has shifted drastically the last 6-8 months with the advent of each new build. Theres no way you can blanket the entire match-up with such a generalization that it's not a balanced match up when the 'perceived balance' fluctuates so much. Ultimately, skill level has dictated the match-up, and has given plenty of room for both Terrans and Protoss to win through innovation, sheer mechanics, and simply being better- is a better blanket statement, IMO. + Show Spoiler +I wouldn't give Protoss all the credit of "Finding a new build" that changed the match up drastically. It was Blizzard who changed it with the constant Protoss Buffs and constant Terran nerfs. If people can't see this MU is disgustingly broken right now, this SC2 community is much more biased against Terran then what I originally thought.
I don't care what people think is balanced at that high prestige professional level of SC2. When I play a game where I clearly out macro my opponent, money is low, I stutter step, get at least mediocre emps off I expect to get much better results against a Toss who is floating at least 500 - 700 minerals that just 1 A's me.
Yeah, sure Terran will find a build. But I'm kinda worried right now, we have our top level Terrans playing 30+ games p/day and studying it. Yet, still nothing new that is effective.
All I can say for fellow Terrans is you can either;
1. Learn variations of the 1-1-1 and perfect those builds down to a T. Don't let the game get past 15 minutes.
2. Keep trying to work on that perfect micro, but be prepared to lose a shitload of games even if it seems like you are completely out playing your Protoss opponent.
People might accuse me of "oh you have a bad attitude herpa derpa." That's great, you keep thinking that. But I like to at least have a snowballs chance of winning in the late game against a Protoss.
And in reply to Kawaiirice (I love your streams bro and have learned HEAPS), but I find it offensive when I have my hands racing across the keyboard just to try and keep up with a Protoss build that my 6 year old brother can do.
I'm out and done with this thread, all of you Tosses can keep coming in trying to back up you pathetic Chargelot/Archon composition saying it's not OP and takes skill to utilise. + Show Spoiler +Peace, Your best friend ZorBa.G xoxoxox
On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again.......
You lied, Zorba! You lied!
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On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again.......
We(protoss) at least tried to find ways, and did find some before the patch.
You just cry, the second you have a challenge infront of you
Suck it up!
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Mech works fine against toss. problem is it leaves you to vulnerable for such a long time early in the game. The other downside is it is vulnerable to tech switching so if you massacre their 1st army of colosis stalkers and sentries, their next instant wave of 13 speed zealots with immortals will destroy your tank thor mix. You constantly have to have a very accurate amount of each unit (tanks, thors or hellions depending on what the toss has for each engagement) rather than just have mostly marauders, some marines, vikings and ghosts.
Same sort of issue mech has against zerg late game. This is just my opinion though based on my own play. Master Terran EU
*This post has nothing to do with balance just game play based on my experience
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On November 29 2011 23:05 Dusen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... We(protoss) at least tried to find ways, and did find some before the patch. You just cry, the second you have a challenge infront of you Suck it up!
Sure you did
Such as in this post, this post and this post.
I predict you a long and illustrious career as a poster on TL.
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On November 29 2011 23:05 Dusen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... We(protoss) at least tried to find ways, and did find some before the patch. You just cry, the second you have a challenge infront of you Suck it up!
It's easy to talk big and call people retard here on the forums and call Terran QQ retarded because korean Terrans are fucking monsters and destroyed everything.
Ofc low level Terrans will "cry" when the skillcap in TvP is fucking ridiculous and Terran needs insane apm for that level of play just to have a chance against 90 apm Protoss.
It is some what the same in BW but at least there it took some skill out of the Protoss player to actually macro and using casting units.
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As a master Terran player, TvP is by far the my worst match up.
Chargelots with upgrades are way too much and require almost 0 micro.
They force marines which die horribly to storm and colossus.
I believe I win about 40% of my TvPs against Master Protoss and never surprises me when I lose to a high diamond either.
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On November 29 2011 23:02 secretary bird wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:50 -y0shi- wrote:On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... Didnt Terrans need 1 year to understand that a unit that can remove ~50% of a units hp instandly is actually pretty good? I fear the day that terrans actually start to use mech units (not pure mech) and banshees... Anyways I think we should at least wait a bit more til we complain, its also a metagame thing right now. No they didnt?
How come that 1 year after the game gets released every1 started going mass ghosts? You know, terrans "back then" claimed ghosts are way to expensive and useless...
Terrans never started using all off their units because they did fine with mmm, then they started using ghosts and killed every protoss. So Id at least wait a bit, terran has a lot of unused potential in ravens/tanks/banshees IMO.
Maybe tvp is broken, idk, but after t dominating for so long and being so lazy with coming up with new stuff I think we should at least wait a bit before grabbing the pitchforks.
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On November 29 2011 23:15 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 23:05 Dusen wrote:On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... We(protoss) at least tried to find ways, and did find some before the patch. You just cry, the second you have a challenge infront of you Suck it up! Sure you did Such as in this post, this post and this post. I predict you a long and illustrious career as a poster on TL.
LOL
Yes have made a few statements a couple of moths back, explaining how i thougth toss was "in trouble".
You know what the big difference is Mr. Smartass??
I HAVE THE NUMBERS ON MY SIDE
You dont have anything, beside a couple of pros who says that toss is imba and the matchup is broken. Well that MUST be true coming from a terran.
When you land at 48 or something lets talk, until then, just play the game and look for solutions like zerg and toss did, earlier.
And for the record. Dont give a shit about what you predict.
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I should have read more of this thread before I decided to join. didnt realise just how stupid it was going to be. Silly me
All you all have fun bitching about balance.
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On November 29 2011 23:16 Termit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 23:05 Dusen wrote:On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... We(protoss) at least tried to find ways, and did find some before the patch. You just cry, the second you have a challenge infront of you Suck it up! It's easy to talk big and call people retard here on the forums and call Terran QQ retarded because korean Terrans are fucking monsters and destroyed everything. Ofc low level Terrans will "cry" when the skillcap in TvP is fucking ridiculous and Terran needs insane apm for that level of play just to have a chance against 90 apm Protoss. It is some what the same in BW but at least there it took some skill out of the Protoss player to actually macro and using casting units.
Playing toss reguries another kind of skill then terran and zerg.
Toss is the slowest race, not very mobile. Blizzard can't care about if a diamond terran uses the terrans strength(multi drops) against toss weakness(multi attack)
It's a matter of skill.
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Will say that the late game can be frustrating, especially since a lot of tosses are playing super passive/power mode, where they're strongest.
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On November 29 2011 23:24 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 23:02 secretary bird wrote:On November 29 2011 22:50 -y0shi- wrote:On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... Didnt Terrans need 1 year to understand that a unit that can remove ~50% of a units hp instandly is actually pretty good? I fear the day that terrans actually start to use mech units (not pure mech) and banshees... Anyways I think we should at least wait a bit more til we complain, its also a metagame thing right now. No they didnt? How come that 1 year after the game gets released every1 started going mass ghosts? You know, terrans "back then" claimed ghosts are way to expensive and useless... Terrans never started using all off their units because they did fine with mmm, then they started using ghosts and killed every protoss. So Id at least wait a bit, terran has a lot of unused potential in ravens/tanks/banshees IMO. Maybe tvp is broken, idk, but after t dominating for so long and being so lazy with coming up with new stuff I think we should at least wait a bit before grabbing the pitchforks.
Everybody used ghosts for a very long time now, it didnt take much time at all for people to realize that, infestors were ignored much longer even though they were good even before the change for example.
Terrans have come up with more innovations than the other races, new things were tried all the time I really dont agree with you about that.
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On November 29 2011 23:29 Dusen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 23:16 Termit wrote:On November 29 2011 23:05 Dusen wrote:On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... We(protoss) at least tried to find ways, and did find some before the patch. You just cry, the second you have a challenge infront of you Suck it up! It's easy to talk big and call people retard here on the forums and call Terran QQ retarded because korean Terrans are fucking monsters and destroyed everything. Ofc low level Terrans will "cry" when the skillcap in TvP is fucking ridiculous and Terran needs insane apm for that level of play just to have a chance against 90 apm Protoss. It is some what the same in BW but at least there it took some skill out of the Protoss player to actually macro and using casting units. Playing toss reguries another kind of skill then terran and zerg. Toss is the slowest race, not very mobile. Blizzard can't care about if a diamond terran uses the terrans strength(multi drops) against toss weakness(multi attack) It's a matter of skill.
terran is the slowest race.... with siege tanks how mobile can you be? its not like bio walk very fast either. anyway, i believe there is a timing where toss can be very strong due to warpgate. so i don't buy that early game favor Terran, but maybe midgame when the mediavc is out. the biggest problem in tvp for terran is no way to dump those gas on something useful
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On November 29 2011 23:45 HellionDrop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 23:29 Dusen wrote:On November 29 2011 23:16 Termit wrote:On November 29 2011 23:05 Dusen wrote:On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... We(protoss) at least tried to find ways, and did find some before the patch. You just cry, the second you have a challenge infront of you Suck it up! It's easy to talk big and call people retard here on the forums and call Terran QQ retarded because korean Terrans are fucking monsters and destroyed everything. Ofc low level Terrans will "cry" when the skillcap in TvP is fucking ridiculous and Terran needs insane apm for that level of play just to have a chance against 90 apm Protoss. It is some what the same in BW but at least there it took some skill out of the Protoss player to actually macro and using casting units. Playing toss reguries another kind of skill then terran and zerg. Toss is the slowest race, not very mobile. Blizzard can't care about if a diamond terran uses the terrans strength(multi drops) against toss weakness(multi attack) It's a matter of skill. terran is the slowest race.... with siege tanks how mobile can you be? its not like bio walk very fast either. anyway, i believe there is a timing where toss can be very strong due to warpgate. so i don't buy that early game favor Terran, but maybe midgame when the mediavc is out
marauder slow is really strong with proper micro.
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On November 29 2011 23:24 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 23:02 secretary bird wrote:On November 29 2011 22:50 -y0shi- wrote:On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... Didnt Terrans need 1 year to understand that a unit that can remove ~50% of a units hp instandly is actually pretty good? I fear the day that terrans actually start to use mech units (not pure mech) and banshees... Anyways I think we should at least wait a bit more til we complain, its also a metagame thing right now. No they didnt? How come that 1 year after the game gets released every1 started going mass ghosts? You know, terrans "back then" claimed ghosts are way to expensive and useless... Terrans never started using all off their units because they did fine with mmm, then they started using ghosts and killed every protoss. So Id at least wait a bit, terran has a lot of unused potential in ravens/tanks/banshees IMO. Maybe tvp is broken, idk, but after t dominating for so long and being so lazy with coming up with new stuff I think we should at least wait a bit before grabbing the pitchforks.
Lol? Terran has approached EVERY match up they have with totally new styles. We aren't innovating? okay.. and ghosts were always used in tvp. It's just now that they put this particular unit into standard play. We are lazy in coming up with new stuff? When am I ever going to see any creativity from a protoss? I'd say 60% of my tvps are turtling protoss till they are maxed and are on 4 bases, and then the 40% are stupid all ins. Really really impressive if you asked me.
I've tried multiple styles against protoss, I actually started with mech for a long time all the way up to midmasters. Now taht's kind of useless. Some terran go for Sky terran with banshee raven viking, that's pretty unorthodox don't you agree? Some go for marine tank which will inevitable weaken after 20 min + so that's not exactly a viable strategy. Of all the strategies we have to "come up with" the only viable, solid, consistent composition to stick with is BIO.
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On November 29 2011 23:24 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 23:02 secretary bird wrote:On November 29 2011 22:50 -y0shi- wrote:On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... Didnt Terrans need 1 year to understand that a unit that can remove ~50% of a units hp instandly is actually pretty good? I fear the day that terrans actually start to use mech units (not pure mech) and banshees... Anyways I think we should at least wait a bit more til we complain, its also a metagame thing right now. No they didnt? How come that 1 year after the game gets released every1 started going mass ghosts? You know, terrans "back then" claimed ghosts are way to expensive and useless... Terrans never started using all off their units because they did fine with mmm, then they started using ghosts and killed every protoss. So Id at least wait a bit, terran has a lot of unused potential in ravens/tanks/banshees IMO. Maybe tvp is broken, idk, but after t dominating for so long and being so lazy with coming up with new stuff I think we should at least wait a bit before grabbing the pitchforks.
Did you even play for a full year? Ghosts weren't massable prior to their change in cost, as one could not sustain ghost and viking production at the same time.
I can live with Terran being the underdog in the matchup for a while, 1-1-1 was too easy anyways. We're just back to the old stupid ass flaw of terran being unable to keep up in the late game. It appears as if non-terrans think the race has much more potential, as we rarely see techswitches to mech or air yet, but I think people underestimate the limitations of having 3 upgrade lines (two of which are placed on a tier 3 building with a gascost, thus eliminating the possibility of dual armories.) Terran also suffers from every high tech unit being countered by feedbacks, hell, I think 9/10 terrans would prefer thors completely without energy and strike cannons.
I welcome our new protoss overlords, as I too have switched away from terran now.
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On November 29 2011 23:39 secretary bird wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 23:24 -y0shi- wrote:On November 29 2011 23:02 secretary bird wrote:On November 29 2011 22:50 -y0shi- wrote:On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... Didnt Terrans need 1 year to understand that a unit that can remove ~50% of a units hp instandly is actually pretty good? I fear the day that terrans actually start to use mech units (not pure mech) and banshees... Anyways I think we should at least wait a bit more til we complain, its also a metagame thing right now. No they didnt? How come that 1 year after the game gets released every1 started going mass ghosts? You know, terrans "back then" claimed ghosts are way to expensive and useless... Terrans never started using all off their units because they did fine with mmm, then they started using ghosts and killed every protoss. So Id at least wait a bit, terran has a lot of unused potential in ravens/tanks/banshees IMO. Maybe tvp is broken, idk, but after t dominating for so long and being so lazy with coming up with new stuff I think we should at least wait a bit before grabbing the pitchforks. Everybody used ghosts for a very long time now, it didnt take much time at all for people to realize that, infestors were ignored much longer even though they were good even before the change for example. Terrans have come up with more innovations than the other races, new things were tried all the time I really dont agree with you about that.
How was the infestor ignored much longer than ghosts? Unless you are talking about mass infestor but mass ghost wasn't common either.
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I had a ton of trouble in TvP even before all the protoss buffs and terran nerfs. I'd be willing to bet my TvP sits around a 35% wins or less... The only times I win in TvP are when I go on a huge enough lose streak to play terrible players.
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On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are.......
I watch ur stream constantly...saving up 2k gas and having 1/2 the workers as the protoss does not make it imbalanced...especially when protoss is up one base on u :\ really bad mindstate to have as a progamer :\
...so much QQ lately TvP that its scary, even tho ptoss now has a "chance" against terrans now its imbalanced....Toss is now no longer a free win, get over it!!!!!!!
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On November 29 2011 22:50 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... Didnt Terrans need 1 year to understand that a unit that can remove ~50% of a units hp instandly is actually pretty good? I fear the day that terrans actually start to use mech units (not pure mech) and banshees... Anyways I think we should at least wait a bit more til we complain, its also a metagame thing right now.
The day a Terran goes MMM with "a few" mech units is the day where they'll just get face rolled horribly.
More structures to build, an entirely new tech path to get upgrades for, massively reduced mobility with any thor/tanks mixed in, sounds great!
Yeah... there's a reason I DON'T put any mech in my TvP armies.
Currently the saving grace on the horizon is transformer mode Hellions to give us a decent counter to mass chargelots, until then I'm just having to try really hard to not go 111 on ladder as I'd like to actually improve my play. Having said that, even with my fast expand builds it's basically a coin flip if I can hold off early P one base pushes and if I don't cripple them with my push timing based on the first two medivacs and stim finishing I will lose a macro game, end of. Don't even get me started on when they go HT first over Collosus... oh god.
I realise the argument that balancing the game around Bronze - Diamond is dangerous but considering we're their main customer it would be nice if we were thrown a bone. Against a deathball a T army has to focus collosus with vikings, EMP every HT and Archon (or snipe every HT) and stim and micro your MMM so the front lines aren't torn to bits by chargelots and you don't let everything die to storm if you didn't stop every HT. As I don't play Protoss what do they have to do with a late game army as from my point of view it seems nowhere near as hard.
Now, once I reach the level where I have enough APM to do everything I listed above then fantastic I should hopefully be able to roll over late game P armies but until then it seems god damn impossible for non pro level players to win a both maxed fight against a competent P.
For people saying that T should drop then how on earth is the main T army meant to deal with the P army once they've sent 10/20/30 supply elsewhere? When I drop late game against P they take that opportunity to roll over my army and then use the freed up supply they get from losing a few units in the battle to warp in units to clear up my drop(s) easy as...
As I said I'm sure once I improve my APM to the level where I can do everything I need to in a late game fight then happy friggin days but until then... sad times.
EDIT: I think if there was one over arching theme from this entire thread it's that both sides are fed up that the match up can be decided on use of two massively powerful spells. I mean... I don't know one person who plays a game competently for 15/20 minutes and then loses to one button press can think the match up is good in any way.
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So much whining from both sides. Terran players always prided on not QQing and now we have this thread? Shame on you Terran players.
As for Toss, keep making Zealot/Archon. My banshee/ghost/hellion build shits all over it.
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On November 29 2011 23:24 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 23:02 secretary bird wrote:On November 29 2011 22:50 -y0shi- wrote:On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... Didnt Terrans need 1 year to understand that a unit that can remove ~50% of a units hp instandly is actually pretty good? I fear the day that terrans actually start to use mech units (not pure mech) and banshees... Anyways I think we should at least wait a bit more til we complain, its also a metagame thing right now. No they didnt? How come that 1 year after the game gets released every1 started going mass ghosts? You know, terrans "back then" claimed ghosts are way to expensive and useless... Terrans never started using all off their units because they did fine with mmm, then they started using ghosts and killed every protoss. So Id at least wait a bit, terran has a lot of unused potential in ravens/tanks/banshees IMO. Maybe tvp is broken, idk, but after t dominating for so long and being so lazy with coming up with new stuff I think we should at least wait a bit before grabbing the pitchforks.
1 year ago the metagame focused around colossus play, something ghosts really aren't that good against. The play focused on getting 2-3 colossus, then switching tech, expanding, or killing the Terran. As Terran, you had to balance bio, medivacs, and vikings, which left no income room and high profile targets to use emp on.
Today, we see a lot more chargelot-archon or immortal busts, where both are directly countered by ghosts. Sentry play is also more popular. It's gotten to the point where that heavy colossus play is just one of the many strats protoss use in the matchup. When playing the numbers, it's better to respond to the most likely scenario, which involves ghost.
Terrans didn't "suddenly" learn that ghosts were good, they were faced with strats which needed better counters than mmm(+viking).
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On November 29 2011 21:19 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 21:10 MurdeR wrote:On November 29 2011 20:55 Kreb wrote:On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are....... Dude, I like you and all, and your achievements as a player is impressive, but you'd probably be much better of with a different mindset than that. Work with what you have available yourself, theres a lot of "joke mechanics" in all races. Not to mention an average user would seriously risk getting banned posting shit like that. And even if the post it isnt bannable alone, you're hardly making TL a better place where calm and constructive discussions can take place by encouraging such "quality posts". He is just saying what he thinks, and he is the better player here so you should: read, learn and shut up. I dont know why that post is "baneable" nor why it "hardly making TL better", there you have a progamers opinion about current TvP state, its great to read posts like that. And yes, im terran, i feel just like jinro, also i saw jinro streaming a LOT and i feel like him when he get destroyed lategame. Also, its fairly true that terran is more powerfull at midgame, but i dont want to play all my game "allin" style anymore, i prefer to lose and try to win a macro long game. Im also trying to improve my multitasking and macro mechanics to do what MVP does, but trust me, its not EASY. -Go into random LR thread of choice after you've watched a late game PvT go in the favor of a P. -Post "late game protoss is such a joke"
I'll give you about 50/50 chance of getting straight up banned or just receive a warning. Repeat the above and you WILL be banned. I encourage you to try if you don't believe me.
That's because saying something like, "Late game P is such a joke" should be a bannable offense to begin with. Doesn't matter the context.
Balance whining ins't something that should muddy up all LR Threads (even though it always does).
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On November 29 2011 20:55 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are....... Dude, I like you and all, and your achievements as a player is impressive, but you'd probably be much better of with a different mindset than that. Work with what you have available yourself, theres a lot of "joke mechanics" in all races. Not to mention an average user would seriously risk getting banned posting shit like that. And even if the post it isnt bannable alone, you're hardly making TL a better place where calm and constructive discussions can take place by encouraging such "quality posts".
The reason Jinro can say stuff like this is because he actually knows what he's talking about and isnt just some platinum player whining about shit.
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On November 30 2011 00:03 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 23:24 -y0shi- wrote:On November 29 2011 23:02 secretary bird wrote:On November 29 2011 22:50 -y0shi- wrote:On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... Didnt Terrans need 1 year to understand that a unit that can remove ~50% of a units hp instandly is actually pretty good? I fear the day that terrans actually start to use mech units (not pure mech) and banshees... Anyways I think we should at least wait a bit more til we complain, its also a metagame thing right now. No they didnt? How come that 1 year after the game gets released every1 started going mass ghosts? You know, terrans "back then" claimed ghosts are way to expensive and useless... Terrans never started using all off their units because they did fine with mmm, then they started using ghosts and killed every protoss. So Id at least wait a bit, terran has a lot of unused potential in ravens/tanks/banshees IMO. Maybe tvp is broken, idk, but after t dominating for so long and being so lazy with coming up with new stuff I think we should at least wait a bit before grabbing the pitchforks. Did you even play for a full year? Ghosts weren't massable prior to their change in cost, as one could not sustain ghost and viking production at the same time. I can live with Terran being the underdog in the matchup for a while, 1-1-1 was too easy anyways. We're just back to the old stupid ass flaw of terran being unable to keep up in the late game. It appears as if non-terrans think the race has much more potential, as we rarely see techswitches to mech or air yet, but I think people underestimate the limitations of having 3 upgrade lines (two of which are placed on a tier 3 building with a gascost, thus eliminating the possibility of dual armories.) Terran also suffers from every high tech unit being countered by feedbacks, hell, I think 9/10 terrans would prefer thors completely without energy and strike cannons. I welcome our new protoss overlords, as I too have switched away from terran now.
Not trying to start a fight here but dont most terrans float a ton of gas at some point because there is no "outlet" like the ht? Because then the ghost change is more of a nerf then a buff, isnt it?
IIRC ghosts were mostly used as a reaction to mass ht, right? Protoss started loosing when T in the gsl started massing ghosts, right? Im just confused how it can take so long to come up with mass ghosts. Im pretty confident that at least MASS ghost was really rare before it appeared in the gsl.
Protoss was/is considered up because of 2 reasons:
1) 111 Which I still think is way to strong
2) Mass Ghosts
After this mass ghost style appeared protoss would usually just roll over and die and had no way to win in lategame pvt.
Now blizzard patched this, and no we should wait and see. Im not even saying there are no issues. I just think that one issue was fixed and now we should wait for a bit til everything has settled. Maybe all other terran units are useless but I think we should at least wait for a bit, units like banshees have a ton of potential. And Im pretty confident mass ghosts was never used, even back when it removed all shields.
I agree on the thor/feedback thing though. And Hots will hopefully improve terran mech. Though Im kinda afraid of something like hellion marauder, annihilates both zealots and stalkers :/ But well see
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On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are.......
Hey hi, thanks for answering
You didn't agree much with what I said (:D) so I'm going to go for it and ask for a bit of your knowledge there, time for me to learn something!
- What do you consider the strongest Protoss all ins? Some kind of 2 base gateway all in? The usual VR bullshit? Immortal busts? 4gate warpprim? I'm sure there is a lot more that I can't think of, it would be very useful to know how you feel about them.
- Do you feel like you can pressure protoss in midgame (I would say, while he's still powering on 2 bases with double forge and blink, grabbing his third), and if yes, how? Is there a wide enough window before Protoss AoE?
- Late game I pretty much agree with you. I think that before the EMP nerf, you had the possibility to be very cost effective with your Terran max though, do you agree or do you think lategame TvP was impossible even before the EMP nerf?
Thanks alot if you take the time to answer, Jinro, and good luck in the future regardless
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Part of the issue I feel is that terran's have forgotten just how good drops are against toss.
KEEP. DROPPING.
I play the matchup from both sides, and I win almost all of them.
As toss, I use the old phoenix play, and crush armies that come at me hard (but! to be fair, I play passive toss)
As terran, I use an expand heavy, drop heavy, thorzain style of play (Walk the edge between greedy and too greedy)- I make sure ghosts can hit the templar, etc etc etc. and I drop as protoss attacks. If I win the fight, that's it, I've probably won the game, as the drop is busy in their base, killing their dudes. If I lose the fight, I have time to recover, otherwise... my dudes are in his base, killing his guys. (Go go baseracing with only two medivacs full of guys :D)
It's a very winnable MU from either side, and I'd say it's pretty much balanced in the late game. Early game I play passive from both sides, so I wouldn't know.
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Part of the issue I feel is that terran's have forgotten just how good drops are against toss.
KEEP. DROPPING.
Yeah, drops are good, but they tend to have diminishing returns. For one thing, the longer the game goes on the more trivial it is to leave a couple troops back for drop defense or use cannons for the same purpose. Once you drop on them, the more likely they are to expand their vision to their entire territory and dropping becomes much more difficult without the element of surprise.
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Drops are almost useless when the toss has blink stalkers on small-medium sized maps. On a map like tal darim they can be decent mid/late game but not game changing.
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On November 30 2011 00:43 Selkie wrote:
Part of the issue I feel is that terran's have forgotten just how good drops are against toss.
KEEP. DROPPING.
I play the matchup from both sides, and I win almost all of them.
As toss, I use the old phoenix play, and crush armies that come at me hard (but! to be fair, I play passive toss)
As terran, I use an expand heavy, drop heavy, thorzain style of play (Walk the edge between greedy and too greedy)- I make sure ghosts can hit the templar, etc etc etc. and I drop as protoss attacks. If I win the fight, that's it, I've probably won the game, as the drop is busy in their base, killing their dudes. If I lose the fight, I have time to recover, otherwise... my dudes are in his base, killing his guys. (Go go baseracing with only two medivacs full of guys :D)
It's a very winnable MU from either side, and I'd say it's pretty much balanced in the late game. Early game I play passive from both sides, so I wouldn't know.
Shouldve seen Thorzain play Hero in IPL game yesterday, it was cringeworthy. Im sure Thorzain was crying his eyes out at having for the most part outmacroed his opponent and then losing. Ofcourse hero is one of the worlds best but Thorzain has been one of the best PvT players and even if it was against Hero being unable to break the protoss while outplaying him the midgame frustrated him so much he just practically gave up. My point being players of his level couldnt find a solution to that style of play which relies heavy on defense and just surviving to the late game and sustaining your tech, not caring the terran is ahead on bases and such (you could point to OZ and Jakji but Oz played really greedy and risky the games he lost and if he just went for the standard toss play in the current meta he wouldve been ok.). Im sure theres a solution my point is if they cant do it a low-mid masters player has less of a chance against a solid defensive toss.
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IMHO drops aren't really good lategame: if you drop too much, toss is gonna a move into your natural/main, destroy your production facilities and gg
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Yeah basetrade that terran always will win.
You guys are just making excuses now, start dropping and stop the whinning.
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I find dropping against zerg much easier than it is against protoss, and they have mutalisks.
That should tell you alot
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I don't think TvP mech is as impossible as everyone makes it out to be. I've been watching a lot of Goody's games lately and he's able to win some pretty jaw-dropping engagements with a massive amount of tanks. Even against 200/200 protoss balls of perfect counters like Zealot/Immortal/Archon from really strong Ps like Mana and WhiteRa. Of course, just like every other matchup, if you get caught unsieged then you lose.
I've noticed that one thing that makes Goody's mech work is that he scouts for Colossus/HT just like a MMMVG player. And then he responds with either Ghosts or Vikings, just like any good MMMVG player. You can't use just pure factory like you can in TvT and TvZ.
The thing is, he needs to do that scouting much earlier than MMMVG because instead of worrying about just Colossus and HT he needs to worry about Colossus/HT+Immortal. As long as he gets the proper amount of Ghosts, his Tanks and Thors do just fine against Zealots and Immortals. It actually looks like its easier to EMP with a Tank heavy army instead of a Bio army, because the Siege Mode umbrella forces head-on engagements instead of letting the P skirmish and regenerate shields.
When it's all said and done, I definitely agree that it's easier to go MMMVG. But that doesn't mean that mech TvP is impossible.
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Northern Ireland117 Posts
Thing is i went ghost mech for months, and late to end game mech is dreadful vs protoss so much so that its a complete waste of resources.
Mech _can_ work if you hit abusive timings with it. But its very very hard to make it work in a passive macro orientated game. You have to turtle to 3 base and get upgrades and pretty much max out but by that time protoss can go carriar or lots of void rays and you kind of have to go all in and double expand behind it, its really really messy.
VS bad protoss players you can seriously abuse them going zealot stalker collosus mech can destory that quite hard in a good engagement but your relying on the protoss being bad which is not good
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On November 30 2011 05:09 Dusen wrote:
Yeah basetrade that terran always will win.
You guys are just making excuses now, start dropping and stop the whinning.
At a certain point drops just don't work. 4/5 zealots with good upgrades will basically stop a drop from doing damage long enough to get stalkers or other units in position. In the midgame though, drops are definitely good and I need to work on that.
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I have made the sad realization that I mostly will be cheesing to win TvP until Hots comes out.
TvP - balanced or not - is just a retarded and broken matchup on a deeply profound level :[
I think the OP makes a good point with the defenders advantage aspect. Immortals and sentries are just stupidly good vs bunkers. Even if both players fast expand in TvP the protoss can rely on forcefields to defend while the terran has to make bunkers. Ironically enough a 1 gate FE can kind of punish a terran FE by abusing this fact since forcefield also is a very useful offensive ability.
If you go for some kind of expansion with tanks to defend you can still be abused by immortals , drops or a combination of both. I had a dude immortal drop on what I thought was well positioned tanks , LOL. It can´t really be scouted if you are not very lucky because the protoss can make both units from a robo facility (which should be made in any solid PvT build) and hide them.
This list of gay stuff protoss can do to abuse the lack of defenders advantage can be made longer but I think I´ve made my point.
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That thread is exagerating slightly now (lol).
I was thinking that you can actually also say that Protoss doesn't have a defender advantage (look at PvP) because they can warp anywhere on the map so they're not really any more powerful at home compared to Terran, with bunkers, repair and shorter travel distance.
People speak about immortals which are not produced from warpgates. Dudes, deal with it, Protoss can attack with units too, there is no design flaw in that. If a unit is too strong, it will be toned down, but citing the immortal as a unit that negates the defender advantage is not relevant. That was the reason why immortals were buffed in the first place, Protoss itself had no defender's advantage against the 111, so they had to buff something, but buffing gateway units would strengthen again warpgate attacks (WHICH is bad).
Now guys, be realistic. The matchup is not impossible, wtf, if you're not a top player, just get a bit better at the game and improve your TvP; now every last post has been complaining like Protoss can litterally do whatever he feels like and have 102% winrate against T...
IlIlIlIl November 30 2011 05:25. Posts 71
I found that particularly funny because there are precisely two korean terran grandmaster accounts with that name. One is rank 6 atm. They don't seem to have any problem ;D
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The amount of time you write on this thread is time that could be going to learning to beat protoss. Just sayin.
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On November 30 2011 08:24 Kudoku wrote:
The amount of time you write on this thread is time that could be going to learning to beat protoss. Just sayin.
Too much work, easier to whine like zerg and toss have for more than a year.
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On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are.......
I disagree with Terran stronger than toss early game i think it's about even and really depends on how efficently someone scouts/ game sense. But Terran is able to denie 1 gate expo with many builds, but protoss can punish 1 rax FE with 4 gate and void ray all in, but with MVP 4 barracks play you have alot of marines sometimes you only need 1 bunker.
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Does anyone with a brain think basetrades favor T?
The moment P gets into your base, your production ends. Doesn't matter if you can float if your production is gone. P can still warpin lost supply for as long as it takes to destory gates.
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On November 30 2011 09:16 architecture wrote:
Does anyone with a brain think basetrades favor T?
The moment P gets into your base, your production ends. Doesn't matter if you can float if your production is gone. P can still warpin lost supply for as long as it takes to destory gates.
Fly away buildings, Marauders destroy buildings. Not to mention that mules don't cost supply. When does basetrade not favour terran?
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This thread is just so sad on so many levels. We saw the inklings of it a few weeks ago when terrans started whining that no one seemed to give their heros the same adulation that any victorious protoss or zerg got. Now minor balance changes are an attempt to generate the same racial sympathy and unity the other two races have.
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This thread is just so sad on so many levels. We saw the inklings of it a few weeks ago when terrans started whining that no one seemed to give their heros the same adulation that any victorious protoss or zerg got. Now minor balance changes are an attempt to generate the same racial sympathy and unity the other two races have.
Or maybe protoss just isn't beatable lategame for Terran.
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heh i like this thread, I have lots of problems agaisnt protoss right now and I hate how my ONLY build is 1 rax gasless expand vs protoss, nothing else seems to work. I think that the OP is wrong about the defenders advantage though, if the protoss wants to attack into a terran and the terran seems it coming then they can lay down EMPs, and its really hard for P to attack ( although EMP got nerfed super hard T_T ) The problem for me lategame vs protoss, is that IMO protoss just requires less APM than terran in the end game. I find myself losing to 100 apm protosses that just sit and camp to max, then send 1 probe to make pylons all over the map + a warp prism and then just start warping shit in all over the place until my army gets out of position and the protoss moves in with their main army. Terran requires so much more apm in the fights, and drops all have to be perfectly microd because protoss just warps in units as soon as they see the drop, you have to pick up and move somewhere else with 2+ different drops at the same time. Also in fights protoss just has to A move and then go back to macroing, the T has to spread units perfectly and perfect EMPs and then kite the zealots which I think is quite unfair. I think that's why korean terrans have been having an easier time TvP than foreigner terrans, because they have ridiculous apm and can multitask a lot better and handle all the fighting / macroing / multipronged attacks.
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On November 30 2011 10:13 coL.drewbie wrote:
heh i like this thread, I have lots of problems agaisnt protoss right now and I hate how my ONLY build is 1 rax gasless expand vs protoss, nothing else seems to work. I think that the OP is wrong about the defenders advantage though, if the protoss wants to attack into a terran and the terran seems it coming then they can lay down EMPs, and its really hard for P to attack ( although EMP got nerfed super hard T_T ) The problem for me lategame vs protoss, is that IMO protoss just requires less APM than terran in the end game. I find myself losing to 100 apm protosses that just sit and camp to max, then send 1 probe to make pylons all over the map + a warp prism and then just start warping shit in all over the place until my army gets out of position and the protoss moves in with their main army. Terran requires so much more apm in the fights, and drops all have to be perfectly microd because protoss just warps in units as soon as they see the drop, you have to pick up and move somewhere else with 2+ different drops at the same time. Also in fights protoss just has to A move and then go back to macroing, the T has to spread units perfectly and perfect EMPs and then kite the zealots which I think is quite unfair. I think that's why korean terrans have been having an easier time TvP than foreigner terrans, because they have ridiculous apm and can multitask a lot better and handle all the fighting / macroing / multipronged attacks.
To be fair, 100 APM post patch is actually good enough even for pros. If it's pre patch, it's definitely low, but post patch, the best multitaskers in the game have 110-140 max (basing myself on pro korean replays, MMA vs MVP, HuK vs Aria, etc...).
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Masters terran here...I agree with OP. Late game tvp you really have to rely on protoss making a positional mistake in order to win. At masters/gm level, it is unlikely this would happen, and makes tvp so hard.
I just rely on 2 base timing all in, or 1 base all in for my tvp wins. Good Luck
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I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho.
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On November 30 2011 10:13 coL.drewbie wrote:
heh i like this thread, I have lots of problems agaisnt protoss right now and I hate how my ONLY build is 1 rax gasless expand vs protoss, nothing else seems to work. I think that the OP is wrong about the defenders advantage though, if the protoss wants to attack into a terran and the terran seems it coming then they can lay down EMPs, and its really hard for P to attack ( although EMP got nerfed super hard T_T ) The problem for me lategame vs protoss, is that IMO protoss just requires less APM than terran in the end game. I find myself losing to 100 apm protosses that just sit and camp to max, then send 1 probe to make pylons all over the map + a warp prism and then just start warping shit in all over the place until my army gets out of position and the protoss moves in with their main army. Terran requires so much more apm in the fights, and drops all have to be perfectly microd because protoss just warps in units as soon as they see the drop, you have to pick up and move somewhere else with 2+ different drops at the same time. Also in fights protoss just has to A move and then go back to macroing, the T has to spread units perfectly and perfect EMPs and then kite the zealots which I think is quite unfair. I think that's why korean terrans have been having an easier time TvP than foreigner terrans, because they have ridiculous apm and can multitask a lot better and handle all the fighting / macroing / multipronged attacks.
I definitely agree with this. Lategame PvT doesn't require much apm to be effective whereas you need a lot of apm to win TvP. But if Terran has the apm and EMPs everything, I still think Terran should win that battle.
Just another reason I wish they would replace the Colo. ><"
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I think neither race has a clear advantage in the matchup, but that's not because the matchup is balanced, but because it's broken as hell. Almost equally broken actually.
What I dislike about the OP is that he focuses only on Protoss' strengths in the matchup while completely disregarding Terran's strenghts, which are indeed many.
In the early game, Terran has a CLEAR advantage. Terran allins have time and time again demonstrated how powerful they are vs Protoss, simply because they have the ability to dictate what the protoss does. Keep in mind, for example, that a well executed 1-1-1 on a favorable map must be blind countered or it WILL kill you as Protoss, because when the scout gets there you're already dead. The fact that a build must be blind countered only prooves how broken early game TvP is.
In the mid game it's somewhat even, with early ghost timings giving a slight advantage to terran, related to the amount of sentries protoss can muster to hold the EMPs, this is also the usual timing in which ghosts will destroy Protoss in a straight up fight, so P will usually turtle. This means that barring some drops or other such things, this is probably the most boring stage in any matchup, absolutely nothing happens at this point. Protoss builds an army, Terran builds ghosts/vikings depending on what he scouts.
In the late game is when everything is actually most broken. Given how units clump together, both EMPs and Storm are overpowered, and can make or break the matchup. Ghost/HT micro isn't exciting or fun to watch. In this regard it should be noted that because of each race scouting and detection capabilities, and mobility differences between units, ghosts have an inherent advantage against HTs, but at the same time, once Protoss has enough chargelots it doesn't matter because they pretty much just don't die at all.
All in all, the matchup is boring, broken as hell, usually determined by a single battle, or even a single drop, since the matchup is so fragile there's no way to recover from a sniped charge/storm/thermal lance upgrade. There's no dynamics in the game, nothing to make it interesting to watch.
It's really sad imo. TvP must be the most boring of all matchups, pretty much everything about it is wrong and stale.
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On November 30 2011 10:17 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 10:13 coL.drewbie wrote:
heh i like this thread, I have lots of problems agaisnt protoss right now and I hate how my ONLY build is 1 rax gasless expand vs protoss, nothing else seems to work. I think that the OP is wrong about the defenders advantage though, if the protoss wants to attack into a terran and the terran seems it coming then they can lay down EMPs, and its really hard for P to attack ( although EMP got nerfed super hard T_T ) The problem for me lategame vs protoss, is that IMO protoss just requires less APM than terran in the end game. I find myself losing to 100 apm protosses that just sit and camp to max, then send 1 probe to make pylons all over the map + a warp prism and then just start warping shit in all over the place until my army gets out of position and the protoss moves in with their main army. Terran requires so much more apm in the fights, and drops all have to be perfectly microd because protoss just warps in units as soon as they see the drop, you have to pick up and move somewhere else with 2+ different drops at the same time. Also in fights protoss just has to A move and then go back to macroing, the T has to spread units perfectly and perfect EMPs and then kite the zealots which I think is quite unfair. I think that's why korean terrans have been having an easier time TvP than foreigner terrans, because they have ridiculous apm and can multitask a lot better and handle all the fighting / macroing / multipronged attacks. To be fair, 100 APM post patch is actually good enough even for pros. If it's pre patch, it's definitely low, but post patch, the best multitaskers in the games have 110-140 max (basing myself on pro korean replays, MMA vs MVP, HuK vs Aria, etc...).
i meant 100 real apm, like with SC2gears
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On November 30 2011 10:44 mordk wrote:
I think neither race has a clear advantage in the matchup, but that's not because the matchup is balanced, but because it's broken as hell. Almost equally broken actually.
What I dislike about the OP is that he focuses only on Protoss' strengths in the matchup while completely disregarding Terran's strenghts, which are indeed many.
In the early game, Terran has a CLEAR advantage. Terran allins have time and time again demonstrated how powerful they are vs Protoss, simply because they have the ability to dictate what the protoss does. Keep in mind, for example, that a well executed 1-1-1 on a favorable mapmust be blind counteredor it WILL kill you as Protoss, because when the scout gets there you're already dead. The fact that a build must be blind countered only prooves how broken early game TvP is.
In the mid game it's somewhat even, with early ghost timings giving a slight advantage to terran, related to the amount of sentries protoss can muster to hold the EMPs, this is also the usual timing in which ghosts will destroy Protoss in a straight up fight, so P will usually turtle. This means that barring some drops or other such things, this is probably the most boring stage in any matchup, absolutely nothing happens at this point. Protoss builds an army, Terran builds ghosts/vikings depending on what he scouts.
In the late game is when everything is actually most broken. Given how units clump together, both EMPs and Storm are overpowered, and can make or break the matchup. Ghost/HT micro isn't exciting or fun to watch. In this regard it should be noted that because of each race scouting and detection capabilities, and mobility differences between units, ghosts have an inherent advantage against HTs, but at the same time, once Protoss has enough chargelots it doesn't matter because they pretty much just don't die at all.
All in all, the matchup is boring, broken as hell, usually determined by a single battle, or even a single drop, since the matchup is so fragile there's no way to recover from a sniped charge/storm/thermal lance upgrade. There's no dynamics in the game, nothing to make it interesting to watch.
It's really sad imo. TvP must be the most boring of all matchups, pretty much everything about it is wrong and stale.
This pretty much what my entire game plan is based on, and trying to snipe expos with a larger force when army out of position. Its so obvious though and any decent masters player knows what your doing. Itll work on diamonds not high masters players. It hasnt worked in agesssss though.
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On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho.
For calling it "whine" I think it is way more constructive than if you take a random "Terran OP" whine argument.
Drewbie does a very detailed description of his take on the problems in the matchup without whining even once.
And do you honestly expect SotG to affect anything ? Last time I checked there was mostly protosses in there and a zerg who was idrA. Like that bunch of people would ever come to the conclusion that terran was UP before it became a blatantly obvious fact.
In that show they went into great detail discussing the possible effect of a patch. They spent a lot of time dissecting the consequences for PvP and the vision up the ramp change.
The fact that the same patch included the bf hellion nerf was cleared in about a minute. Everyone said they thought it was a good change and that hellions were OP except iNcontroL who didn´t like the change. Day[9] seemed to not have done the math on how it will affect hellion damage vs marines and only said "hmm" when confronted with it.
Said change could have had huge ramifications for TvP since bf hellions had started to appear in some late game pro-level games to deal with chargelots.
So much for them caring about the terran side in TvP ...
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Everyone knows that lategame TvP is broken. Just look at the number of help TvP posts in the forum compared to ANY other matchup and it tells the tale. Especially if you compare the number of masters/diamond requests compared to other matchups. It is unbelievalby easy to make a mistake that causes your army to get absolutely obliterated. If protoss just A moves his entire army in the late game, he will still do at least a decent amount of damage. If terran makes some blunders with any stage of his micro, emps, stutterstep or even to a lesser degree poor viking micro he can easily trade his entire army for almost nothing.
Everyone except SOTG aka protoss circle jerk. What are they going to do about it? I don't know that.
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On November 30 2011 11:37 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho. For calling it "whine" I think it is way more constructive than if you take a random "Terran OP" whine argument. Drewbie does a very detailed description of his take on the problems in the matchup without whining even once. And do you honestly expect SotG to affect anything ? Last time I checked there was mostly protosses in there and a zerg who was idrA. Like that bunch of people would ever come to the conclusion that terran was UP before it became a blatantly obvious fact. In that show they went into great detail discussing the possible effect of a patch. They spent a lot of time dissecting the consequences for PvP and the vision up the ramp change. The fact that the same patch included the bf hellion nerf was cleared in about a minute. Everyone said they thought it was a good change and that hellions were OP except iNcontroL who didn´t like the change. Day[9] seemed to not have done the math on how it will affect hellion damage vs marines and only said "hmm" when confronted with it. Said change could have had huge ramifications for TvP since bf hellions had started to appear in some late game pro-level games to deal with chargelots. So much for them caring about the terran side in TvP ...
I have actually stopped watching SOTG for this very reason. I just get the impression that it really is just a Protoss gangbang. I could be completely wrong, but it's just how I feel after watching the show so many times.
When do they ever regularly have at least 1 Terran on there? I can't even remember the last Terran I had seen on there tbh, Painuser? 1 Terran out of 57 episodes?
Not to mention, the last patch with the emp nerf and cheaper toss ups was discussed for no more then like a minute. I bet if there was a Terran on the show, there would have been more discussion.
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On November 30 2011 11:55 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 11:37 one-one-one wrote:On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho. For calling it "whine" I think it is way more constructive than if you take a random "Terran OP" whine argument. Drewbie does a very detailed description of his take on the problems in the matchup without whining even once. And do you honestly expect SotG to affect anything ? Last time I checked there was mostly protosses in there and a zerg who was idrA. Like that bunch of people would ever come to the conclusion that terran was UP before it became a blatantly obvious fact. In that show they went into great detail discussing the possible effect of a patch. They spent a lot of time dissecting the consequences for PvP and the vision up the ramp change. The fact that the same patch included the bf hellion nerf was cleared in about a minute. Everyone said they thought it was a good change and that hellions were OP except iNcontroL who didn´t like the change. Day[9] seemed to not have done the math on how it will affect hellion damage vs marines and only said "hmm" when confronted with it. Said change could have had huge ramifications for TvP since bf hellions had started to appear in some late game pro-level games to deal with chargelots. So much for them caring about the terran side in TvP ... I have actually stopped watching SOTG for this very reason. I just get the impression that it really is just a Protoss gangbang. I could be completely wrong, but it's just how I feel after watching the show so many times. When do they ever regularly have at least 1 Terran on there? I can't even remember the last Terran I had seen on there tbh, Painuser? 1 Terran out of 57 episodes? Not to mention, the last patch with the emp nerf and cheaper toss ups was discussed for no more then like a minute. I bet if there was a Terran on the show, there would have been more discussion.
They had Demuslim one time iirc.
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guys there is no op in this game, as many pros showed its possible to win any match up if you are better, dont find solutions in balance, go practice
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Well its not really SOTG fault though. I agree that there is a strong protoss/zerg bias there but its mainly because all the starcraft personalities play those 2 races. Who do we have that play terran and vocal? Maybe Painuser but hes busy with casting for IGN nowadays and doesnt really play anymore. Even if SOTG wants to add a stronger Terran presence to the show they would be hardpressed to find someone to fill the shoes.
Maybe Drewbie should be on the show and he and Idra would argue about who should appologize for playing what race. I would surely tune in for it.
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On November 30 2011 11:55 ZorBa.G wrote:
I have actually stopped watching SOTG for this very reason. I just get the impression that it really is just a Protoss gangbang. I could be completely wrong, but it's just how I feel after watching the show so many times.
When do they ever regularly have at least 1 Terran on there? I can't even remember the last Terran I had seen on there tbh, Painuser? 1 Terran out of 57 episodes?
Not to mention, the last patch with the emp nerf and cheaper toss ups was discussed for no more then like a minute. I bet if there was a Terran on the show, there would have been more discussion.
They had Demuslim on relatively recently, and he unequivocally stated that ghosts were broken.
The emp nerf and cheaper upgrades were discussed for no more than a minute because they're practically irrelevant and change almost nothing in the TvP match-up.
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On November 29 2011 03:56 Nightshake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 03:45 K3Nyy wrote:
Protoss allins can be dealt with if you scout and prepare for it.
If you're seriously saying Terran has no defender's advantage, then you've seriously never built a bunker. They have the strongest defender's advantage. Strong but not cheap as forcefields. Tanks are just too bad in TvP, only useful in 1/1/1. The main reason is that even if they deal a lot of damage zone, they are too weak against Zealots and deal damage to your own units. They are good to destroy Stalkers, Colossus and Sentrys. The Protoss has simply to build Phenixes and you are in a real disadvantage of mobility and army efficiency. They are 2 ways to defend properly : - against a 3/4 Gate Robo all-in, it is pretty much impossible to defend when you have taken your expand. So you have to stay on one base and wait for Medivacs or Ghosts - for other all-ins, keep one SCV outside your base to scout and be sure when he attacks. Put your VCS in front of the bunkers to prevent Zealots to reach the bunkers, and to make the sentrys use more Forcefields. Basically with good micro, and good multitask, it shouldn't be so hard. Good luck defeating the Protoss !
wait, you said you have to stay 1 base but... why not just lift and back to the main? its the best way to hold immortal builds, you just cant bust 1base terran
and also if you think 50/100 is cheaper than 25 then idk what math is this
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On November 30 2011 10:17 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 10:13 coL.drewbie wrote:
heh i like this thread, I have lots of problems agaisnt protoss right now and I hate how my ONLY build is 1 rax gasless expand vs protoss, nothing else seems to work. I think that the OP is wrong about the defenders advantage though, if the protoss wants to attack into a terran and the terran seems it coming then they can lay down EMPs, and its really hard for P to attack ( although EMP got nerfed super hard T_T ) The problem for me lategame vs protoss, is that IMO protoss just requires less APM than terran in the end game. I find myself losing to 100 apm protosses that just sit and camp to max, then send 1 probe to make pylons all over the map + a warp prism and then just start warping shit in all over the place until my army gets out of position and the protoss moves in with their main army. Terran requires so much more apm in the fights, and drops all have to be perfectly microd because protoss just warps in units as soon as they see the drop, you have to pick up and move somewhere else with 2+ different drops at the same time. Also in fights protoss just has to A move and then go back to macroing, the T has to spread units perfectly and perfect EMPs and then kite the zealots which I think is quite unfair. I think that's why korean terrans have been having an easier time TvP than foreigner terrans, because they have ridiculous apm and can multitask a lot better and handle all the fighting / macroing / multipronged attacks. To be fair, 100 APM post patch is actually good enough even for pros. If it's pre patch, it's definitely low, but post patch, the best multitaskers in the game have 110-140 max (basing myself on pro korean replays, MMA vs MVP, HuK vs Aria, etc...).
Eh, I doubt that the top korean pros have only 140 max... I mean, I have an average 120 APM when the game is like 20 minutes long, and I'm not grandmaster... I don't know, maybe I just have high APM
TvP is so imba lategame that I just all-in every game...
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On November 30 2011 13:00 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 10:17 ZenithM wrote:On November 30 2011 10:13 coL.drewbie wrote:
heh i like this thread, I have lots of problems agaisnt protoss right now and I hate how my ONLY build is 1 rax gasless expand vs protoss, nothing else seems to work. I think that the OP is wrong about the defenders advantage though, if the protoss wants to attack into a terran and the terran seems it coming then they can lay down EMPs, and its really hard for P to attack ( although EMP got nerfed super hard T_T ) The problem for me lategame vs protoss, is that IMO protoss just requires less APM than terran in the end game. I find myself losing to 100 apm protosses that just sit and camp to max, then send 1 probe to make pylons all over the map + a warp prism and then just start warping shit in all over the place until my army gets out of position and the protoss moves in with their main army. Terran requires so much more apm in the fights, and drops all have to be perfectly microd because protoss just warps in units as soon as they see the drop, you have to pick up and move somewhere else with 2+ different drops at the same time. Also in fights protoss just has to A move and then go back to macroing, the T has to spread units perfectly and perfect EMPs and then kite the zealots which I think is quite unfair. I think that's why korean terrans have been having an easier time TvP than foreigner terrans, because they have ridiculous apm and can multitask a lot better and handle all the fighting / macroing / multipronged attacks. To be fair, 100 APM post patch is actually good enough even for pros. If it's pre patch, it's definitely low, but post patch, the best multitaskers in the game have 110-140 max (basing myself on pro korean replays, MMA vs MVP, HuK vs Aria, etc...). Eh, I doubt that the top korean pros have only 140 max... I mean, I have an average 120 APM when the game is like 20 minutes long, and I'm not grandmaster... I don't know, maybe I just have high APM
I know, I have 120ish APM too, 160 pre-patch (and I play protoss lol), doesn't make me a good multitasker ;D
I opened up one of my most recent replays of MMA vs MVP, arguably 2 of the strongest mechanical players and multitaskers, 29 minutes game on Tal Darim, going up to 4 bases. They ended up with 132 APM (MVP), and 136 APM (MMA). MMA's average peeked at 144 during the game. I think they have both 220+ pre-patch on that game though, judging from the amount of tapping going on :D
Conclusion: Blizzard's APM doesn't measure shit, except maybe how fast you click on your mouse.
Edit: About the replays if you want to check that out, it's the GSPA finals. Very good games
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On November 30 2011 13:15 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 13:00 kofman wrote:On November 30 2011 10:17 ZenithM wrote:On November 30 2011 10:13 coL.drewbie wrote:
heh i like this thread, I have lots of problems agaisnt protoss right now and I hate how my ONLY build is 1 rax gasless expand vs protoss, nothing else seems to work. I think that the OP is wrong about the defenders advantage though, if the protoss wants to attack into a terran and the terran seems it coming then they can lay down EMPs, and its really hard for P to attack ( although EMP got nerfed super hard T_T ) The problem for me lategame vs protoss, is that IMO protoss just requires less APM than terran in the end game. I find myself losing to 100 apm protosses that just sit and camp to max, then send 1 probe to make pylons all over the map + a warp prism and then just start warping shit in all over the place until my army gets out of position and the protoss moves in with their main army. Terran requires so much more apm in the fights, and drops all have to be perfectly microd because protoss just warps in units as soon as they see the drop, you have to pick up and move somewhere else with 2+ different drops at the same time. Also in fights protoss just has to A move and then go back to macroing, the T has to spread units perfectly and perfect EMPs and then kite the zealots which I think is quite unfair. I think that's why korean terrans have been having an easier time TvP than foreigner terrans, because they have ridiculous apm and can multitask a lot better and handle all the fighting / macroing / multipronged attacks. To be fair, 100 APM post patch is actually good enough even for pros. If it's pre patch, it's definitely low, but post patch, the best multitaskers in the game have 110-140 max (basing myself on pro korean replays, MMA vs MVP, HuK vs Aria, etc...). Eh, I doubt that the top korean pros have only 140 max... I mean, I have an average 120 APM when the game is like 20 minutes long, and I'm not grandmaster... I don't know, maybe I just have high APM I know, I have 120ish APM too, 160 pre-patch (and I play protoss lol), doesn't make me a good multitasker ;D I opened up one of my most recent replays of MMA vs MVP, arguably 2 of the strongest mechanical players and multitaskers, 29 minutes game on Tal Darim, going up to 4 bases. They ended up with 132 APM (MVP), and 136 APM (MMA). MMA's average peeked at 144 during the game. I think they have both 220+ pre-patch on that game though, judging from the amount of tapping going on :D Conclusion: Blizzard's APM doesn't measure shit, except maybe how fast you click on your mouse. Edit: About the replays if you want to check that out, it's the GSPA finals. Very good games
the MVP vs MMA final? Yea, it was a pretty series. Especially with husky + day9 casting.
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On November 30 2011 10:13 coL.drewbie wrote:
heh i like this thread, I have lots of problems agaisnt protoss right now and I hate how my ONLY build is 1 rax gasless expand vs protoss, nothing else seems to work. I think that the OP is wrong about the defenders advantage though, if the protoss wants to attack into a terran and the terran seems it coming then they can lay down EMPs, and its really hard for P to attack ( although EMP got nerfed super hard T_T ) The problem for me lategame vs protoss, is that IMO protoss just requires less APM than terran in the end game. I find myself losing to 100 apm protosses that just sit and camp to max, then send 1 probe to make pylons all over the map + a warp prism and then just start warping shit in all over the place until my army gets out of position and the protoss moves in with their main army. Terran requires so much more apm in the fights, and drops all have to be perfectly microd because protoss just warps in units as soon as they see the drop, you have to pick up and move somewhere else with 2+ different drops at the same time. Also in fights protoss just has to A move and then go back to macroing, the T has to spread units perfectly and perfect EMPs and then kite the zealots which I think is quite unfair. I think that's why korean terrans have been having an easier time TvP than foreigner terrans, because they have ridiculous apm and can multitask a lot better and handle all the fighting / macroing / multipronged attacks.
I just wish they would remove Warpgates, Buff Gateway units to compensate for crappy Protoss defenders advantage, Protoss, Zerg, Terran all win, but this adjustment would require huge changes to units stats and such. I've said this many times before Warpgates fucked up the game, I don't think it's OP but it just causes so many balance problems that just not worth the gimmick. I play Protoss btw.
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On November 30 2011 13:38 deadmau wrote:
I just wish they would remove Warpgates, Buff Gateway units to compensate for crappy Protoss defenders advantage, Protoss, Zerg, Terran all win, but this adjustment would require huge changes to units stats and such. I've said this many times before Warpgates fucked up the game, I don't think it's OP but it just causes so many balance problems that just not worth the gimmick. I play Protoss btw.
Yeah. Like why would you ever want to let a protoss get to 200/200 food with a lot of warp-gates.
If the gates are not still on cooldown they can instantly reinforce with gateway units right into the battle.
On a side note I would like to mention a detail that most people omit. In a lot of high-level games the casters sometimes gives a shot of a random nexus somewhere and more often than not you can see a lot of energy saved up.
What this means is that energy that could be spent chrono-boosting warp-gates hasn´t been.
Protoss players probably reason that it is easier to just add on extra gates which only cost 150 minerals and no gas each.
The optimal way to play protoss would be to not save up energy and instead build less warp-gates and use chrono-boost to compensate for the lower number. This would free up resources that could be used elsewhere making the protoss army stronger earlier.
What if players started doing this instead of whining about imbalance so that ultimately blizzard give in and force out a balance patch.
The common opinion seems to be that protoss requires less APM in the lategame , so there all you protosses have a concrete suggestion of what you could spend your clicks on. It is not so hard , just hotkey all your nexuses and go to the warp-gates , hold down the "c" button until the keyboard goes into repeat mode and then go crazy clicking all your warp-gates.
Much like spamming forcefields or storms , LOL.
edit: spelling ...
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On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are.......
This.
The Terran is stronger than protoss earlygame argument comes from the days where stim was fast to research. Bio units without stim and combat shield are utter crap against a solid protoss gateway composition anywhere but on the defensive. It's when you get stim out that you can start being cost effective, and only when you get either medivacs or ghosts that you can start being aggressive, i.e midgame.
I don't think TvP is imbalanced at the pro levels, but that matchup is a lot harder for the terran to pull off at the diamond levels of skill at least, especially once the protoss can field colossi and HTs at the same time, where if you lack the correct specialist for each unit, you simply die, and I'm not even mentioning chargelots occupying 80% of your APM just kiting them to survive. At least it's good practice for ones multitasking, and I'm spamming out custom games against protoss only right now to master it...
On November 29 2011 23:05 Dusen wrote:
We(protoss) at least tried to find ways, and did find some before the patch.
You just cry, the second you have a challenge infront of you
Suck it up!
If you would like to recall the first six months of this game, where Protosses were whining about stalkers dying to mass marauders, before they figured out that the zealot was a pretty good unit toi use...
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On November 30 2011 15:31 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are....... This. The Terran is stronger than protoss earlygame comes argument from the days where stim was fast to research. Bio units without stim and combat shield are utter crap against a solid protoss gateway composition anywhere but on the defensive. It's when you get stim out that you can start being cost effective, and only when you get either medivacs or ghosts that you can start being aggressive, i.e midgame. I don't think TvP is imbalanced at the pro levels, but that matchup is a lot harder for the terran to pull off at the diamond levels of skill at least, especially once the protoss can field colossi and HTs at the same time, where if you lack the correct specialist for each unit, you simply die, and I'm not even mentioning chargelots occupying 80% of your APM just kiting them to survive.
I completely agree TERRAN IS NOT STRONG EARLY GAME, in fact protoss has an advantage with all the gateway timings using forcefields, which makes terrans static defense (bunkers) useless. I have to disagree with the pro levels however when it comes to lategame, No matter how good you are or how sick your micro is, I have seen many top tier terrans lose to massive amounts of zealots.i
It really amazes me how many out of date arguments people still seem to believe, many people think terrans are all scrubs because they won't use helions vs zealots in the lategame, simply because on paper they are a counter. You cannot base your opinions on pure theorycrafting, when in the actual game it is often completely different.
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I honestly think its the warp gate that causes problems late game. It is too easy to switch from Colossi into Tenplars. You dont even have to storm; just morph a few Archons and it's over.
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On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho.
There aren't any terrans on SOTG? Demuslim was on it once i think but otherwise there's 3 protoss's (tyler incontrol artosis) and IdrA.
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I am pretty sure they ll do something about it, right now the mu feels a joke. I am low diamond and i rarely win. Ever since P started loading up with zealots i just cant win. I mean you win 5-6 engagements in the middle but you cant take on his expos cause of warpgates, if you approach the main is 20 more zealots that you have to take on with a red army (due to stim). Also tech switch is so easy for P.
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On November 30 2011 15:51 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho. There aren't any terrans on SOTG? Demuslim was on it once i think but otherwise there's 3 protoss's (tyler incontrol artosis) and IdrA.
This is another factor that influences a lot of people. Look at the current Sc2 "media", SOTG contains 3 protoss, and usually a zerg like sheth or idra. The two main casters for GSL both play protoss, Wolf and Doa the casters for Code A also play protoss. They are all really great casters but it is easy to tell they have an understandable slight bias towards protoss in some games.
There are virtually no terran non-players that are part of the sc2 scene.
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On November 30 2011 16:07 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 15:51 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho. There aren't any terrans on SOTG? Demuslim was on it once i think but otherwise there's 3 protoss's (tyler incontrol artosis) and IdrA. This is another factor that influences a lot of people. Look at the current Sc2 "media", SOTG contains 3 protoss, and usually a zerg like sheth or idra. The two main casters for GSL both play protoss, Wolf and Doa the casters for Code A also play protoss. They are all really great casters but it is easy to tell they have an understandable slight bias towards protoss in some games. There are virtually no terran non-players that are part of the sc2 scene.
Doa plays terran, but I believe he himself admits hes pretty mediocre. Neverthless according to your arguement he should be favouring terran. Frankly this is all nonsense. I can understand Tasteless and Artosis bias's they can be like that, but Wolf and Doa are pretty balanced casters. Wolf in particular has great Toss specific knowledge so it might come of as bias but I dont think it is.
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On November 30 2011 16:07 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 15:51 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho. There aren't any terrans on SOTG? Demuslim was on it once i think but otherwise there's 3 protoss's (tyler incontrol artosis) and IdrA. This is another factor that influences a lot of people. Look at the current Sc2 "media", SOTG contains 3 protoss, and usually a zerg like sheth or idra. The two main casters for GSL both play protoss, Wolf and Doa the casters for Code A also play protoss. They are all really great casters but it is easy to tell they have an understandable slight bias towards protoss in some games. There are virtually no terran non-players that are part of the sc2 scene.
ITS LIKE A PROTOSS CONSPIRICY !!!!!
alot of people making pretty insane claims even some pro players
Not being a pro player I have to judge balance based on results which to me watching gsl and mlgs the games looks as balanced as its ever been if anything terran was a bitstronger than protoss a few months ago, this thread is just full of people (terrans) overreacting
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Not being a pro player I have to judge balance based on results which to me watching gsl and mlgs the games looks as balanced as its ever been if anything terran was a bitstronger than protoss a few months ago, this thread is just full of people (terrans) overreacting
i don´t know if its true for every terran out there but at least its true for me:
- Since month people are bitching about how op terran is. Especially in the pro scene. Some quotes are small and ironic part of casts (day9: "the marine by far the most underpowered unit in the arsenal of terran") or 20 minutes whining how absurd strong emp was and how stupidly weak toss is (incontroll in 90% of the last SOTG shows) and than there is the gsl where MVP and the terran race is dominating.
So the consens in the hole community was, terran is op, zerg and toss is weak and terrans are stupid.
What happend. In every thread a Terran wrote and ask about help someone answered: "Terran is op just make emp and easy win"
A other Point:
I was facing a lot of hate in the ladder from toss player. A game started and after i wrote my nice "gl hf": " GTFO stupid terran player easy race player stupid asshole"
Many times i won a game against Toss opponents wrote stuff like "Terran is op you are stupid". And if lost: "to stupid to play a easy-win race"
To sum up: The consens of the community was, or still is terran is op. So many terrans are facing stupid comments from other players.
But me including, the experience while playing the game was a complete diffrent. For many terrans in lower legues from Silver to Plat, even in low masters TvP is a anwinnible MU or at least an extreme difficult MU including a lot of really frustrating loses. Sometimes you play well you are dropping, you deny expansions, you could snipe some collosi but at the end storms and zealots are sloughter your stimmed army, and you loose after another warp in.
Thats the experiance of many Terrans i think and thats the reason why in the last few weeks so many Discussions pop out on TL. Couse Terrans want to share there oppinion like every other race is. And they feel unfairness.
Its not that they want to play an easy race. Its not that they want to whine about balance. Its becouse the oppinion of the community is many times unfair.
I really would like to see less hate against Terran players. More Terran streams (TLO switch to Zerg :-( still amazing stream btw). And a terran player in SOTG.
Sorry by the way for my bad english. I hope i could make my point anyway.
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On November 30 2011 16:19 Kewlots wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 16:07 Raambo11 wrote:On November 30 2011 15:51 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho. There aren't any terrans on SOTG? Demuslim was on it once i think but otherwise there's 3 protoss's (tyler incontrol artosis) and IdrA. This is another factor that influences a lot of people. Look at the current Sc2 "media", SOTG contains 3 protoss, and usually a zerg like sheth or idra. The two main casters for GSL both play protoss, Wolf and Doa the casters for Code A also play protoss. They are all really great casters but it is easy to tell they have an understandable slight bias towards protoss in some games. There are virtually no terran non-players that are part of the sc2 scene. ITS LIKE A PROTOSS CONSPIRICY !!!!! alot of people making pretty insane claims even some pro players Not being a pro player I have to judge balance based on results which to me watching gsl and mlgs the games looks as balanced as its ever been if anything terran was a bitstronger than protoss a few months ago, this thread is just full of people (terrans) overreacting
Yeah I don't think you are understanding what I am trying to say. All the people who simply brush off any terran complaint are doing so for a reason. Part of that reason is that EVERYBODY in the sc2 media scene does not play terran so they take part in the terran bashing, like on SOTG for instance. People listen and conclude that terran is OP, even if they win all of their matches vs terran on ladder. They watch GSL and see a terran player land some EMP's while tasteless goes "GG" as soon as the emps hit the army before the fight even happens, and conclude that EMP is OP, even if they never lose to it. Most terrans plat and under cant land emp's at all, resulting in people having no experience with it themself. That is just one example but I think you get the point.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything the guy above me said.
At the guy a few posts above, DOA SWITCHED TO PROTOSS, at least the last I heard...
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It's astonishing how Protoss and Zerg progamers can whine about imbalances basically for hours (eg SOTG) and its accepted by the community.
Some Terran pros tell their oppinion in a post in a tl thread and get bullshited for it.
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On November 30 2011 19:09 SevenShots wrote:It's astonishing how Protoss and Zerg progamers can whine about imbalances basically for hours (eg SOTG) and its accepted by the community. Some Terran pros tell their oppinion in a post in a tl thread and get bullshited for it.
Blame the koreans, for being good at it. Thats all thats been to it really.
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On November 30 2011 19:12 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 19:09 SevenShots wrote:It's astonishing how Protoss and Zerg progamers can whine about imbalances basically for hours (eg SOTG) and its accepted by the community. Some Terran pros tell their oppinion in a post in a tl thread and get bullshited for it. Blame the koreans, for being good at it. Thats all thats been to it really.
Blame the foreigners, for being bad at it.
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So far the non-subject arguments presented in this thread on why Terran is underpowered:
"I saw about one game where Terran loses early game, stim must be underpowered compared to ff"
"I saw about one game where Terran loses late game, raven, thor, banshee etc all must be underpowered compared to HT, Colossus, etc" (nevermind that HT has been nerfed so hard that it barely counters mutas anymore., meanwhile Terrans are doing just fine in the GSL)
"I saw one game..."
"I saw one game..."
"I play as Terran on ladder and I find it hard..." (what? I thought it's common knowledge that Terran is hard at master level and below, while Zerg is the easiest up until the diamond level. Remember back when Latin America has its own server, there was an obscene amount of Zerg up in the master league because the top skill level on that server was actually that low.)
So... what exactly is the merit of this thread and why hasn't it been closed already?
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Edit: Lol sorry, randomly replying in a thread...
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On November 30 2011 19:17 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 19:12 Rebs wrote:On November 30 2011 19:09 SevenShots wrote:It's astonishing how Protoss and Zerg progamers can whine about imbalances basically for hours (eg SOTG) and its accepted by the community. Some Terran pros tell their oppinion in a post in a tl thread and get bullshited for it. Blame the koreans, for being good at it. Thats all thats been to it really. Blame the foreigners, for being bad at it.
Or just blame the children.
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If you dont have 300 apm and much time to play, dont play terran and switch to Protoss. The casters have done it and with good reason. You should do the same.
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@ppdealer
you are right so far. Its always a back and forward. I know TvP isn´t a anwinnible MU.
The point is more how the community is acting. And how some concerns are threated by the community. Maybe many Terrans wouldn´t whine so much in Threads like this. If the concerns of Terran players about the MU would take more serious.
Sure the OP was about deffenders advantage and more specific. But the way the discussion went (and in every thread about TvP it has went in this direction) shows that there is something going wrong. whatever it is.....
Yes you can close the thread and again the concerns the problems of terrans are not respected
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On November 30 2011 17:23 Gonzo103 wrote:
A other Point:
I was facing a lot of hate in the ladder from toss player. A game started and after i wrote my nice "gl hf": " GTFO stupid terran player easy race player stupid asshole"
To be fair that could just be the guy dicking around. I did the exact same thing against a protoss player the other day to troll him when he GL HF'd me...
...he killed me with a one base immortal all-in and told me to l2p and put me on ignore :D
He mad.
As far as getting hate on the ladder. It happens. People whine about everything. Just shrug it off.
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On November 30 2011 15:31 Dalavita wrote:
The Terran is stronger than protoss earlygame argument comes from the days where stim was fast to research. Bio units without stim and combat shield are utter crap against a solid protoss gateway composition anywhere but on the defensive. It's when you get stim out that you can start being cost effective, and only when you get either medivacs or ghosts that you can start being aggressive, i.e midgame.
...
If you would like to recall the first six months of this game, where Protosses were whining about stalkers dying to mass marauders, before they figured out that the zealot was a pretty good unit toi use...
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Concussive_Shells
Concussive Marauders murder pretty much everything Protoss can produce early game unless the Protoss rushes to charge like crazy or gets absolutely perfect forcefields in an optimal location. Sentries are weak in direct combat, Zealots are slow without charge and are melee and Stalkers just die to the Marauder bonus damage. You can't really fight it because your units either can't get close enough or don't do enough damage and you can't run away because the effect slows you down. Concussive is also the cheapest upgrade in the game for time and resource cost.
Stim doesn't HAVE to be your very first upgrade you know?
That said I think the best summary of the situation is this post:
On November 30 2011 10:44 mordk wrote:
I think neither race has a clear advantage in the matchup, but that's not because the matchup is balanced, but because it's broken as hell. Almost equally broken actually.
What I dislike about the OP is that he focuses only on Protoss' strengths in the matchup while completely disregarding Terran's strenghts, which are indeed many.
In the early game, Terran has a CLEAR advantage. Terran allins have time and time again demonstrated how powerful they are vs Protoss, simply because they have the ability to dictate what the protoss does. Keep in mind, for example, that a well executed 1-1-1 on a favorable map must be blind countered or it WILL kill you as Protoss, because when the scout gets there you're already dead. The fact that a build must be blind countered only prooves how broken early game TvP is.
In the mid game it's somewhat even, with early ghost timings giving a slight advantage to terran, related to the amount of sentries protoss can muster to hold the EMPs, this is also the usual timing in which ghosts will destroy Protoss in a straight up fight, so P will usually turtle. This means that barring some drops or other such things, this is probably the most boring stage in any matchup, absolutely nothing happens at this point. Protoss builds an army, Terran builds ghosts/vikings depending on what he scouts.
In the late game is when everything is actually most broken. Given how units clump together, both EMPs and Storm are overpowered, and can make or break the matchup. Ghost/HT micro isn't exciting or fun to watch. In this regard it should be noted that because of each race scouting and detection capabilities, and mobility differences between units, ghosts have an inherent advantage against HTs, but at the same time, once Protoss has enough chargelots it doesn't matter because they pretty much just don't die at all.
All in all, the matchup is boring, broken as hell, usually determined by a single battle, or even a single drop, since the matchup is so fragile there's no way to recover from a sniped charge/storm/thermal lance upgrade. There's no dynamics in the game, nothing to make it interesting to watch.
It's really sad imo. TvP must be the most boring of all matchups, pretty much everything about it is wrong and stale.
We can argue all day whether its balanced or not; but fundamentally its kinda broken in many ways and way too fragile.
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On November 30 2011 19:31 ppdealer wrote:
So far the non-subject arguments presented in this thread on why Terran is underpowered:
"I saw about one game where Terran loses early game, stim must be underpowered compared to ff"
"I saw about one game where Terran loses late game, raven, thor, banshee etc all must be underpowered compared to HT, Colossus, etc" (nevermind that HT has been nerfed so hard that it barely counters mutas anymore., meanwhile Terrans are doing just fine in the GSL)
"I saw one game..."
"I saw one game..."
"I play as Terran on ladder and I find it hard..." (what? I thought it's common knowledge that Terran is hard at master level and below, while Zerg is the easiest up until the diamond level. Remember back when Latin America has its own server, there was an obscene amount of Zerg up in the master league because the top skill level on that server was actually that low.)
So... what exactly is the merit of this thread and why hasn't it been closed already?
The thread starter did not claim that Terran was underpowered , I think he specifically states that but maybe you didn´t care to actually read what he wrote. Since you apparently didn´t read the OP you have obviously not analyzed his take on why TvP is broken.
Instead you come in on page 16 and start trolling.
Nice style!
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On November 30 2011 19:42 secretary bird wrote:
If you dont have 300 apm and much time to play, dont play terran and switch to Protoss. The casters have done it and with good reason. You should do the same.
Oh pls, keeping your zealots in front of your collosus while landing forcefields takes as much micro as any other races main unit compasition. Give it a try some time and see if you dont come to the same conclusion i did.
On November 30 2011 15:51 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho. There aren't any terrans on SOTG? Demuslim was on it once i think but otherwise there's 3 protoss's (tyler incontrol artosis) and IdrA.
thats just nonsense about no terrans on the SOTG. JT McDaniel is terran, Artosis is protoss now but was a terran in stacraft bloodwar and Day9 is random/terran... Also painuser is a terran host on ItG.
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On December 01 2011 04:01 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 19:31 ppdealer wrote:
So far the non-subject arguments presented in this thread on why Terran is underpowered:
"I saw about one game where Terran loses early game, stim must be underpowered compared to ff"
"I saw about one game where Terran loses late game, raven, thor, banshee etc all must be underpowered compared to HT, Colossus, etc" (nevermind that HT has been nerfed so hard that it barely counters mutas anymore., meanwhile Terrans are doing just fine in the GSL)
"I saw one game..."
"I saw one game..."
"I play as Terran on ladder and I find it hard..." (what? I thought it's common knowledge that Terran is hard at master level and below, while Zerg is the easiest up until the diamond level. Remember back when Latin America has its own server, there was an obscene amount of Zerg up in the master league because the top skill level on that server was actually that low.)
So... what exactly is the merit of this thread and why hasn't it been closed already? The thread starter did not claim that Terran was underpowered , I think he specifically states that but maybe you didn´t care to actually read what he wrote. Since you apparently didn´t read the OP you have obviously not analyzed his take on why TvP is broken. Instead you come in on page 16 and start trolling. Nice style!
It is true, what the orginional post says is that that terran get weaker and weaker the longer the game goes. But don't worry, this is not a balance discussion thread. It is just a discussion on how terrans get weaker and are horrible at defendant against all ins.
And we all know that saying your race is weak is not saying that it is underpowered.
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Terran loses a few matches and shit goes down- damn. better make the matchup favor terran
whats the current win% again? yeah..
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On November 29 2011 03:58 RastaMonsta wrote:
Bunkers, thats it lol
There must be a reason this isnt banned yet, it must be because TL has only protoss and zerg moderators.
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On December 01 2011 04:01 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 19:31 ppdealer wrote:
So far the non-subject arguments presented in this thread on why Terran is underpowered:
"I saw about one game where Terran loses early game, stim must be underpowered compared to ff"
"I saw about one game where Terran loses late game, raven, thor, banshee etc all must be underpowered compared to HT, Colossus, etc" (nevermind that HT has been nerfed so hard that it barely counters mutas anymore., meanwhile Terrans are doing just fine in the GSL)
"I saw one game..."
"I saw one game..."
"I play as Terran on ladder and I find it hard..." (what? I thought it's common knowledge that Terran is hard at master level and below, while Zerg is the easiest up until the diamond level. Remember back when Latin America has its own server, there was an obscene amount of Zerg up in the master league because the top skill level on that server was actually that low.)
So... what exactly is the merit of this thread and why hasn't it been closed already? The thread starter did not claim that Terran was underpowered , I think he specifically states that but maybe you didn´t care to actually read what he wrote. Since you apparently didn´t read the OP you have obviously not analyzed his take on why TvP is broken. Instead you come in on page 16 and start trolling. Nice style! this person should actually go back and retake english class, because either u can't read, or the only language u speak is troll. Edit: the person saying ONE GAME
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On December 01 2011 04:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 04:01 one-one-one wrote:On November 30 2011 19:31 ppdealer wrote:
So far the non-subject arguments presented in this thread on why Terran is underpowered:
"I saw about one game where Terran loses early game, stim must be underpowered compared to ff"
"I saw about one game where Terran loses late game, raven, thor, banshee etc all must be underpowered compared to HT, Colossus, etc" (nevermind that HT has been nerfed so hard that it barely counters mutas anymore., meanwhile Terrans are doing just fine in the GSL)
"I saw one game..."
"I saw one game..."
"I play as Terran on ladder and I find it hard..." (what? I thought it's common knowledge that Terran is hard at master level and below, while Zerg is the easiest up until the diamond level. Remember back when Latin America has its own server, there was an obscene amount of Zerg up in the master league because the top skill level on that server was actually that low.)
So... what exactly is the merit of this thread and why hasn't it been closed already? The thread starter did not claim that Terran was underpowered , I think he specifically states that but maybe you didn´t care to actually read what he wrote. Since you apparently didn´t read the OP you have obviously not analyzed his take on why TvP is broken. Instead you come in on page 16 and start trolling. Nice style! It is true, what the orginional post says is that that terran get weaker and weaker the longer the game goes. But don't worry, this is not a balance discussion thread. It is just a discussion on how terrans get weaker and are horrible at defendant against all ins. And we all know that saying your race is weak is not saying that it is underpowered.
Your post adds nothing to this discussion , it is just another example of people trying to trivialize the concerns of Terran players by using the skill argument.
What the OP wrote was (among other things) that the defenders advantage normally given by tanks is lacking in TvP.
So far terrans have been able to come up with concrete builds or techniques that defend any specific Protoss all-in.
The problem is to see it coming since different all-ins require very different responses.
As an example you can defend Zerg all-ins such as high-economy baneling busts and ling-roach all-ins by fast-teching siege mode and have good building placement.
In TvP , how should I know that my opponent is proxying a starport or a robotics facility. Any competent terran can surely see that the Protoss is not taking his natural and then scan his base only to see 3 gates and a cybernetics core.
The spirit of the thread is to point out how profoundly stupid the current state of TvP is. Ask any Terran out there what they really think about TvP , then tune in to any featured Terran streamer and watch them go crazy about the TvP match-up by doing weird all-ins and funky builds.
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On November 30 2011 10:44 mordk wrote:
I think neither race has a clear advantage in the matchup, but that's not because the matchup is balanced, but because it's broken as hell. Almost equally broken actually.
What I dislike about the OP is that he focuses only on Protoss' strengths in the matchup while completely disregarding Terran's strenghts, which are indeed many.
In the early game, Terran has a CLEAR advantage. Terran allins have time and time again demonstrated how powerful they are vs Protoss, simply because they have the ability to dictate what the protoss does. Keep in mind, for example, that a well executed 1-1-1 on a favorable map must be blind countered or it WILL kill you as Protoss, because when the scout gets there you're already dead. The fact that a build must be blind countered only prooves how broken early game TvP is.
In the mid game it's somewhat even, with early ghost timings giving a slight advantage to terran, related to the amount of sentries protoss can muster to hold the EMPs, this is also the usual timing in which ghosts will destroy Protoss in a straight up fight, so P will usually turtle. This means that barring some drops or other such things, this is probably the most boring stage in any matchup, absolutely nothing happens at this point. Protoss builds an army, Terran builds ghosts/vikings depending on what he scouts.
In the late game is when everything is actually most broken. Given how units clump together, both EMPs and Storm are overpowered, and can make or break the matchup. Ghost/HT micro isn't exciting or fun to watch. In this regard it should be noted that because of each race scouting and detection capabilities, and mobility differences between units, ghosts have an inherent advantage against HTs, but at the same time, once Protoss has enough chargelots it doesn't matter because they pretty much just don't die at all.
All in all, the matchup is boring, broken as hell, usually determined by a single battle, or even a single drop, since the matchup is so fragile there's no way to recover from a sniped charge/storm/thermal lance upgrade. There's no dynamics in the game, nothing to make it interesting to watch.
It's really sad imo. TvP must be the most boring of all matchups, pretty much everything about it is wrong and stale.
Pretty much this. It also seems some stages of the game are more fragile for one side than the other, but it feels shitty the whole way through
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On December 01 2011 04:08 Juanald wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 19:42 secretary bird wrote:
If you dont have 300 apm and much time to play, dont play terran and switch to Protoss. The casters have done it and with good reason. You should do the same. Oh pls, keeping your zealots in front of your collosus while landing forcefields takes as much micro as any other races main unit compasition. Give it a try some time and see if you dont come to the same conclusion i did. Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 15:51 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho. There aren't any terrans on SOTG? Demuslim was on it once i think but otherwise there's 3 protoss's (tyler incontrol artosis) and IdrA. thats just nonsense about no terrans on the SOTG. JT McDaniel is terran, Artosis is protoss now but was a terran in stacraft bloodwar and Day9 is random/terran... Also painuser is a terran host on ItG.
JP plays random, not terran specifically, and as of late he has been streaming pure zerg play on Korean ladder. Artosis is protoss in SC2, which is the game that is currently being discussed, not Broodwar. Following that, yes your only relevant fact is that Day9 plays random. If you're going to attempt to throw around facts, make sure you know them before saying them.
Edit: Also, my view at the moment, I feel the lengthy post describing how the MU is not really "leaning" towards one race, but how the MU in general is just broken in every stage of the game really hits it home.
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Shouldn't this be in strategy?
But anyway;
TvP is hard right now. Maybe that's hard to swallow for protoss players who have just come out of their dark ages, and now that protoss is actually winning streamed games, but this is pretty much consensus among terran players; it's hard.
Biased toss players, swallow your accusations of whine. It's not balance whine to say it's hard, because this is supposed to happen. There are supposed to be periods where X race can't beat Y race, then when X race figures something out it's supposed to get really hard for Y race for a bit.
That's the fucking game.
So no we're not saying terran is underpowered. We're saying it's fucking difficult and we don't really know what to do right now.
What I like to do TvP these days is take a super early third before gas, but at a random base on the map. They're mostly four player maps, so usually the main or nat of one of the empty spawn points. Then I get 3 gas and make three or four bunkers if I don't scout an expo, and a couple turrets. If I actually scout like a four gate or a 3gate void ray, I won't make the third base I'll just defend with a lot of bunkers and repair. Good bunker placement and decent micro, you hold off all the all ins in the world.
If they do take an early expo, you laugh. Because you have won the game. Make a single bunker, go up to like 5 rax and just go fucking kill him with marauders. 99% of the time, he will not scout your extra base. If he does, and this is my favourite part, when he sends unit to kill it, just attack his base. Your third should be out of the way, and the protoss army famously is best when in a ball.
Got the extra-hidden-third-before-gas build by watching the replays of Bomber vs Sase from an MLG. I think Orlando. Either way, it's super effective. I've had a couple of silly losses though where I don't get enough production and try and take my fourth a bit too early and I just die, but apart from that I've had great success with the build.
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To be honest the TvP matchup for terran is extremely hard at the diamond level. If a protoss is competent enough to hold off aggression and macro decently then the end game army battles are just so easy for the protoss. Terran at the diamond level have to micro much more than the protoss hence hurting their macro, but if the terran doesn't micro so intensely his 200/200 army can dissappear for a mere 30 supply from the protoss. Even if your up by 2 bases you can still get rolled over with one mistake. The matchup is balanced but the redundancy of losing to someone who can just A attack storm and then warp in 20 units to reinforce his army is a little rediculous sometimes. Guess we terrans will just have to keep improving. There will be a point where the terran gets all the micro down and the protoss players will have to actually learn how to micro their 200/200 army to not have unfavorable trades.
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There are two things that make TvP a stupid matchup to play:
1) Warp gates negate any defenders advantage that terran (or zerg in ZvP) has. And don't talk about bunkers. I'm talking about Protoss being able to warp in reinforcements immediately and save ~30s of walking time. Not to mention the ability to warp in the middle of your base if he has a pylon on the low ground.
2) The fact that MMM is the only viable strategy vs protoss. Anything else only works if it's a gimmick. (i.e. the 1/1/1) You can't go mech, or air, or anything resembling that and stay alive to win the lategame.
It's the reason I absolutely hate TvP. I don't have a problem with MMM, but when I play 30 TvPs, then watch 30 TvP's, and it's all the exact same MMM thing, it gets boring and stupid.
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On December 01 2011 04:55 genius_man16 wrote:
2) The fact that MMM is the only viable strategy vs protoss. Anything else only works if it's a gimmick. (i.e. the 1/1/1) You can't go mech, or air, or anything resembling that and stay alive to win the lategame.
MVP and Jjakji haven't gone into the lategame without MMM, but they have certainly won on two bases or more. Tell me that's gimmicky, please.
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On December 01 2011 04:55 genius_man16 wrote:
2) The fact that MMM is the only viable strategy vs protoss. Anything else only works if it's a gimmick. (i.e. the 1/1/1) You can't go mech, or air, or anything resembling that and stay alive to win the lategame.
It's the reason I absolutely hate TvP. I don't have a problem with MMM, but when I play 30 TvPs, then watch 30 TvP's, and it's all the exact same MMM thing, it gets boring and stupid.
This isntt entirely true. While massing mech of 2 base (anymore and you spread yourself to thin on most maps with mech slow as it is) with thor/hellion/viking/banshee/raven is viable its a bit of a coinflip, I wont go as far as saying its gimicky. The main benefit I can see with it is that it forces a protoss player to play reactively which is what the terran player is usually doing in the MMM style, so you control the flow a bit better. And since its not often used it can sometimes throw them off. If the guy didnt read it and expecting a 1 v1 started pumping out collosi and zealot/stalker/HT your pretty good. If he starts double robo immortal its GG. Still its pretty allin. If you dont absolutely rofl stomp youd might as well GG.
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On December 01 2011 00:36 Lightspeaker wrote:
Concussive Marauders murder pretty much everything Protoss can produce early game unless the Protoss rushes to charge like crazy or gets absolutely perfect forcefields in an optimal location. Sentries are weak in direct combat, Zealots are slow without charge and are melee and Stalkers just die to the Marauder bonus damage. You can't really fight it because your units either can't get close enough or don't do enough damage and you can't run away because the effect slows you down. Concussive is also the cheapest upgrade in the game for time and resource cost.
Stim doesn't HAVE to be your very first upgrade you know?
Get a good mix of zealots and stalkers with enough sentry support to force field and you can take apart ANY bio combination before stim is out. I suggest you actually try things before pulling smartass remarks. Concussive shells don't prevent you from getting force fielded and dying to zealots, only the increased DPS of stim allows you to survive that.
Concussive is good to prevent zealot and stalker pokes, but it doesn't let you get aggressive if the protoss has any army to speak off. If the protoss wants to get aggressive, he can do it whether you got concussive shell or not. On the other hand, sentries hard block any pre-stim aggression. And perfect force fields mean putting two behind the terran army and letting the zealots clean up.
You can't really have perfect balance of strength in the earlygame. Different units are different and their usages makes the earlygame the way it is. I'm simply "debunking" the terran strong earlygame myth. Stim is the key to terrans strength, and stim takes a long time to get.
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On December 01 2011 07:57 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 00:36 Lightspeaker wrote:
Concussive Marauders murder pretty much everything Protoss can produce early game unless the Protoss rushes to charge like crazy or gets absolutely perfect forcefields in an optimal location. Sentries are weak in direct combat, Zealots are slow without charge and are melee and Stalkers just die to the Marauder bonus damage. You can't really fight it because your units either can't get close enough or don't do enough damage and you can't run away because the effect slows you down. Concussive is also the cheapest upgrade in the game for time and resource cost.
Stim doesn't HAVE to be your very first upgrade you know?
Get a good mix of zealots and stalkers with enough sentry support to force field and you can take apart ANY bio combination before stim is out. I suggest you actually try things before pulling smartass remarks. Concussive shells don't prevent you from getting force fielded and dying to zealots, only the increased DPS of stim allows you to survive that. Concussive is good to prevent zealot and stalker pokes, but it doesn't let you get aggressive if the protoss has any army to speak off. If the protoss wants to get aggressive, he can do it whether you got concussive shell or not. On the other hand, sentries hard block any pre-stim aggression. And perfect force fields mean putting two behind the terran army and letting the zealots clean up. You can't really have perfect balance of strength in the earlygame. Different units are different and their usages makes the earlygame the way it is. I'm simply "debunking" the terran strong earlygame myth. Stim is the key to terrans strength, and stim takes a long time to get.
yea no stim and gateway units will rofl stomp you without a healthy mix of marines.If were talking marauders specifically. Zealots will rofl stomp you and if your busy kiting them stalker's while they suck at living against marauders are pretty good at killing them. Also marauders get no bonus to sentrys so targetting them kiting is a pretty big investment so its a lose lose where you choose the lesser evil based on the situation.
It varies based on bo's and how you use your units but frankly its not really a worthwile investment unless your trying to punish greedy toss.
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On December 01 2011 04:25 sandman1454 wrote:There must be a reason this isnt banned yet, it must be because TL has only protoss and zerg moderators.
Is there really a reason to attack the moderators dude, it's people like you that have ruined TL in the first place, gtfo.
On December 01 2011 04:27 sandman1454 wrote:
this person should actually go back and retake english class, because either u can't read, or the only language u speak is troll. Edit: the person saying ONE GAME
And then you attack someone's English skills, I'm from the U.S., and definitely feel people like you make our country look worse and worse, get off your high horse, this is a GLOBALIZED world we live in now you dimwit, ban me for all I care, this level of arrogance/ignorance is unacceptable. It's 2011 going on 2012, this type of thought really still exists?
edit: sry for profanity, was dumbfounded
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On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho.
That's a really bad argument.
SotG: 0 Terrans, 2 Protoss. Even most of the reoccuring guests are non-Terran: Artosis, Day9, Idra, Destiny, Huk. The last Terran they had on was Demuslim like what, 4 months ago? And before that I think it was Gretorp waaay back when NASL started, almost a year ago.
ITG: 0 Terrans, 1 Protoss. I don't think they've ever had a Terran guest, mostly because their pro guests are all EG (understandably), and they don't have many Terrans. I love PainUser but he's already Artosis'd himself out of the competitive scene, just like Gretorp.
Terran does awesome in Korea because Terran rewards high level play the most. You need a gazillion apm to micro and position lategame Terran compositions properly. As well as get away with 1 Rax FEs. But that doesn't help the vast majority of us below Korean High Masters. Protoss and Zerg can get away with just a-moving flanks.
Terrans also have the least representation in online communities. Multiple polls on both Reddit and TL have pegged Terran population at about 25% followed by Protoss at 35% and Zerg at 40%. So they're easiest to shout down.
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On December 01 2011 04:08 Juanald wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 19:42 secretary bird wrote:
If you dont have 300 apm and much time to play, dont play terran and switch to Protoss. The casters have done it and with good reason. You should do the same. Oh pls, keeping your zealots in front of your collosus while landing forcefields takes as much micro as any other races main unit compasition. Give it a try some time and see if you dont come to the same conclusion i did. Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 15:51 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho. There aren't any terrans on SOTG? Demuslim was on it once i think but otherwise there's 3 protoss's (tyler incontrol artosis) and IdrA. thats just nonsense about no terrans on the SOTG. JT McDaniel is terran, Artosis is protoss now but was a terran in stacraft bloodwar and Day9 is random/terran... Also painuser is a terran host on ItG.
Is JP a pro? What obviously day9 is "terran" if he plays random, he doesn't ladder frequently and doesn't have any terran bias however. Did i say ITG btw? And Painuser isn't a pro anymore.
Keeping zealots in front is not "hardcore micro" buddy. Please, are you serious?
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I too am high Diamond and have been having trouble maintaining a steady winrate v. high diamond - up to mid masters protoss. I've come to the point where my main build is 1 rax FE + 3 naked racks added before 27 supply. This allows me to fill 4-5 bunkers at the front (SCVs pulled to repair when pressure comes) which, when scouted, prompts the toss to either expand and macro or do a warp prism drop. I rally about half my marines into my bunkers and half in patrol move around the perimeter of my base in case of warp prisms (which is quite often the case) . In rare cases I can unload my bunkers and take my patrolling marines to do a sort of 6:30 or 7 minute timing with an absurd number of marines, in this case the toss usually loses quite a bit around his natural.
This usually wards off everything but 3gate robo. I add on all 4 gasses at 40 and go double ups from there and comp depends on scouting. It's not totally standard, but I've found that it works for the most part. The only issue is, to get ahead of the toss in macro you have to drop a lot because usually timing attacks don't work unless you're maxed with a LOT of ghosts (just my experience so far).
I suffered a, maybe, 20% win rate versus protoss until I used this specific strategy, and I agree that the matchup at the high diamond/low masters level is skewed towards Protoss. However I feel that there may be a strat or two out there that a high diamond can comfortably execute that secures the same economic and army lead the Protoss can achieve through standard early pressure and macro follow up.
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On December 01 2011 10:33 Vintaged wrote:
I too am high Diamond and have been having trouble maintaining a steady winrate v. high diamond - up to mid masters protoss. I've come to the point where my main build is 1 rax FE + 3 naked racks added before 27 supply. This allows me to fill 4-5 bunkers at the front (SCVs pulled to repair when pressure comes) which, when scouted, prompts the toss to either expand and macro or do a warp prism drop. I rally about half my marines into my bunkers and half in patrol move around the perimeter of my base in case of warp prisms (which is quite often the case) . In rare cases I can unload my bunkers and take my patrolling marines to do a sort of 6:30 or 7 minute timing with an absurd number of marines, in this case the toss usually loses quite a bit around his natural.
This usually wards off everything but 3gate robo. I add on all 4 gasses at 40 and go double ups from there and comp depends on scouting. It's not totally standard, but I've found that it works for the most part. The only issue is, to get ahead of the toss in macro you have to drop a lot because usually timing attacks don't work unless you're maxed with a LOT of ghosts (just my experience so far).
I suffered a, maybe, 20% win rate versus protoss until I used this specific strategy, and I agree that the matchup at the high diamond/low masters level is skewed towards Protoss. However I feel that there may be a strat or two out there that a high diamond can comfortably execute that secures the same economic and army lead the Protoss can achieve through standard early pressure and macro follow up.
3 gate robo isnt that bad with a 1 rax fe if u mass enough bunkers and can get stim out. Youll lose alot of workers but youll come out ahead. Then its just a matter of waltzing in with medivacs. But yeah I used to always not react properly, and ever since ive started overreacting they just park themselves outside your ramp and mass expand. Ofcourse dropping while turtling fixed that pretty easy.
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On December 01 2011 10:33 Vintaged wrote:
I too am high Diamond and have been having trouble maintaining a steady winrate v. high diamond - up to mid masters protoss. I've come to the point where my main build is 1 rax FE + 3 naked racks added before 27 supply. This allows me to fill 4-5 bunkers at the front (SCVs pulled to repair when pressure comes) which, when scouted, prompts the toss to either expand and macro or do a warp prism drop. I rally about half my marines into my bunkers and half in patrol move around the perimeter of my base in case of warp prisms (which is quite often the case) . In rare cases I can unload my bunkers and take my patrolling marines to do a sort of 6:30 or 7 minute timing with an absurd number of marines, in this case the toss usually loses quite a bit around his natural.
This usually wards off everything but 3gate robo. I add on all 4 gasses at 40 and go double ups from there and comp depends on scouting. It's not totally standard, but I've found that it works for the most part. The only issue is, to get ahead of the toss in macro you have to drop a lot because usually timing attacks don't work unless you're maxed with a LOT of ghosts (just my experience so far).
I suffered a, maybe, 20% win rate versus protoss until I used this specific strategy, and I agree that the matchup at the high diamond/low masters level is skewed towards Protoss. However I feel that there may be a strat or two out there that a high diamond can comfortably execute that secures the same economic and army lead the Protoss can achieve through standard early pressure and macro follow up.
Congrats on adjusting to metagame shifts. All I really see is players going through the motions of a period of struggle, like Toss and Zerg have had to deal with since release. Can't take you terran whiners seriously anymore since you base your complaints off a minute timeperiod of struggle.
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On December 01 2011 10:57 deadmau wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 10:33 Vintaged wrote:
I too am high Diamond and have been having trouble maintaining a steady winrate v. high diamond - up to mid masters protoss. I've come to the point where my main build is 1 rax FE + 3 naked racks added before 27 supply. This allows me to fill 4-5 bunkers at the front (SCVs pulled to repair when pressure comes) which, when scouted, prompts the toss to either expand and macro or do a warp prism drop. I rally about half my marines into my bunkers and half in patrol move around the perimeter of my base in case of warp prisms (which is quite often the case) . In rare cases I can unload my bunkers and take my patrolling marines to do a sort of 6:30 or 7 minute timing with an absurd number of marines, in this case the toss usually loses quite a bit around his natural.
This usually wards off everything but 3gate robo. I add on all 4 gasses at 40 and go double ups from there and comp depends on scouting. It's not totally standard, but I've found that it works for the most part. The only issue is, to get ahead of the toss in macro you have to drop a lot because usually timing attacks don't work unless you're maxed with a LOT of ghosts (just my experience so far).
I suffered a, maybe, 20% win rate versus protoss until I used this specific strategy, and I agree that the matchup at the high diamond/low masters level is skewed towards Protoss. However I feel that there may be a strat or two out there that a high diamond can comfortably execute that secures the same economic and army lead the Protoss can achieve through standard early pressure and macro follow up. Congrats on adjusting to metagame shifts. All I really see is players going through the motions of a period of struggle, like Toss and Zerg have had to deal with since release. Can't take you terran whiners seriously anymore since you base your complaints off a minute timeperiod of struggle.
congratz on bothering with something you dont feel like you need to take seriously. Theres no shortage of x race whine snarks in the thread. Thanks for the overwhelmingly valuable input though.
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Its not just at diamond level though, alot of Terran pros are having troubles with this matchup too. I was watching Kas' stream earlier and the guy obviously hate Toss, joking with quite a few fellow Terrans about the matchup. And its not just him, apparently Beastyqt also hate the matchup and has whined about it for 4months (according to Kas anyway). And Jinro has stated way back that he has no sympathy for any Protoss.
So its not really a new thing, they just arent really vocal about it since they will all probably get the Korean winrates thrown in their faces, and they arent exactly involved in any shows to propagate their viewpoints.
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It's terran's turn in the rough patch, that's how the meta game shifts.
That's the problem with so many abusing the 1/1/1 for so long. It's completely stiffled their learning in the match-up
Just look at Puma, in a standard macro game he just looked weak compared to Hero because he's simply been doing that build too much.
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What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate.
- If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode?
- Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder.
Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT.
Uh...
+ Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit.
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On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit.
Or, they are like me and had a ~36% ratio while playing for the long game and decided the matchup was frustrating and boring to play and started to one-base all in every game. So far my win rate with one base all-ins has been around 80%, and yet my overall winrate vs protoss for this season is currently at 47%.
The matchup is boring, bio is boring, and toss late-game can get ridiculously out of hand if you aren't a top tier player.
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On December 01 2011 12:32 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. Or, they are like me and had a ~36% ratio while playing for the long game and decided the matchup was frustrating and boring to play and started to one-base all in every game. So far my win rate with one base all-ins has been around 80%, and yet my overall winrate vs protoss for this season is currently at 47%. The matchup is boring, bio is boring, and toss late-game can get ridiculously out of hand if you aren't a top tier player.
Well it's not by one base all inning every single game that you will improve your late game, regardless of balance...
But you're right to do it. One base terran all ins are incredibly hard to defend, due to *tada* lack of Protoss defender advantage.
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On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit.
ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now.
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On December 01 2011 12:32 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. Or, they are like me and had a ~36% ratio while playing for the long game and decided the matchup was frustrating and boring to play and started to one-base all in every game. So far my win rate with one base all-ins has been around 80%, and yet my overall winrate vs protoss for this season is currently at 47%. The matchup is boring, bio is boring, and toss late-game can get ridiculously out of hand if you aren't a top tier player.
I dont think it is physically possible for terran to deal with 15+ warpgates and 3 robo.
If you overbuild vikings you get raped by their ground army and are forced to land, then they make 3 colossus and rape face. This happens over and over -_-
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On December 01 2011 12:42 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:32 Horseballs wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. Or, they are like me and had a ~36% ratio while playing for the long game and decided the matchup was frustrating and boring to play and started to one-base all in every game. So far my win rate with one base all-ins has been around 80%, and yet my overall winrate vs protoss for this season is currently at 47%. The matchup is boring, bio is boring, and toss late-game can get ridiculously out of hand if you aren't a top tier player. I dont think it is physically possible for terran to deal with 15+ warpgates and 3 robo. If you overbuild vikings you get raped by their ground army and are forced to land, then they make 3 colossus and rape face. This happens over and over -_-
Yep, once Protoss gets 3/4 base and 10+ gates you'll be lucky to break even every fight in tvp, and then comes the damn 10 zealots as reinforcement
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On December 01 2011 12:50 IlIlIlIl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:42 Sadist wrote:On December 01 2011 12:32 Horseballs wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. Or, they are like me and had a ~36% ratio while playing for the long game and decided the matchup was frustrating and boring to play and started to one-base all in every game. So far my win rate with one base all-ins has been around 80%, and yet my overall winrate vs protoss for this season is currently at 47%. The matchup is boring, bio is boring, and toss late-game can get ridiculously out of hand if you aren't a top tier player. I dont think it is physically possible for terran to deal with 15+ warpgates and 3 robo. If you overbuild vikings you get raped by their ground army and are forced to land, then they make 3 colossus and rape face. This happens over and over -_- Yep, once Protoss gets 3/4 base and 10+ gates you'll be lucky to break even every fight in tvp, and then comes the damn 10 zealots as reinforcement
silly you, i think you mean 13 chargelots and 3 archons!
i'm not having as much problems at high diamond level in TvP as others, although it can be frustrating
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I love this thread, its pretty humorous how average players (like plat/diamond/masters) telling players like drewbie, jinro, cloud that theyre wrong and to suck it up. Funny thing is, if you had a protoss thread like this with Huk, Whitera, and Incontrol or a zerg thread with Idra, Stephano, and Destiny the tone of this thread would be a lot different.
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On November 29 2011 03:50 xOff wrote:
While playing against diamond protoss, I have the hardest time ever. I can beat the zerg and other terrans around my level fairly easy but when playing against protoss i certainly agree with "If Terran doesn't do X, they simply die." My drops get denied fairly easy due to warp in + a HT so my scouting information is usually a poke and a scan and pray i see their tech.
At my current moment according to sc2 gears my TvZ is 78% TvT is 72% and my TvP is like 38%. Its just a really difficult matchup for our level.
Yeah, if you don't prepare and scout well you will die.
And you are not dropping at the right times if they are denied very easily. Push the front and drop or drop in 2 places. And what's with "scan and pray" are you even serious? Nobody else had scans... just scout the tosses army comp. You will find out exactly what they have. Protoss is definitely the easiest race to scout by any stretch of the imagination.
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On December 01 2011 12:50 IlIlIlIl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:42 Sadist wrote:On December 01 2011 12:32 Horseballs wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. Or, they are like me and had a ~36% ratio while playing for the long game and decided the matchup was frustrating and boring to play and started to one-base all in every game. So far my win rate with one base all-ins has been around 80%, and yet my overall winrate vs protoss for this season is currently at 47%. The matchup is boring, bio is boring, and toss late-game can get ridiculously out of hand if you aren't a top tier player. I dont think it is physically possible for terran to deal with 15+ warpgates and 3 robo. If you overbuild vikings you get raped by their ground army and are forced to land, then they make 3 colossus and rape face. This happens over and over -_- Yep, once Protoss gets 3/4 base and 10+ gates you'll be lucky to break even every fight in tvp, and then comes the damn 10 zealots as reinforcement Ghosts. I know terran's love to cry that "ghosts really aren't that good", but they REALLY ARE.
There was a recent IPL game (IPL 4 Qualifiers I think), Thorzain vs White Ra on shattered Temple. Going into the big fight Ra had a 20 food advantage, upgrade advantage, and a scary Zealot/Collossi/Archon/Stalker army. He got rolled, completely destroyed. Thorzain EMP'd enough to destroy the archons and snipped every single zealot in a matter of second. All that was left were a few sad, lonely, colossi that were quickly cleaned up. White Ra reinforced with those 10 zealot's which were once again snipped into nothingness.
My general point is, stuff can be dealt with if you try something new. The current late game P composition was tailored to destroy generic MMM, so of course MMM loses.
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..I'm not sure what you want? More defense for terran?
Lets talk about Area Defense.
Bunker (With Salvage)
Tank
Planetary Fortress (You'll build a command center anyway. You will have at least 1 of these in a macro game.)
Sensor Tower ( FREE MAPHACKS. )
Missile turret (Unable to be taken down if you mass repair)
Sorry, do you want more defense?
You're going to have to wait for the next bunker change that'll let you fit a battle cruser inside of it.
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On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now.
Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game.
Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well.
One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots".
I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work.
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On December 01 2011 13:59 Jacobs Ladder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:50 IlIlIlIl wrote:On December 01 2011 12:42 Sadist wrote:On December 01 2011 12:32 Horseballs wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. Or, they are like me and had a ~36% ratio while playing for the long game and decided the matchup was frustrating and boring to play and started to one-base all in every game. So far my win rate with one base all-ins has been around 80%, and yet my overall winrate vs protoss for this season is currently at 47%. The matchup is boring, bio is boring, and toss late-game can get ridiculously out of hand if you aren't a top tier player. I dont think it is physically possible for terran to deal with 15+ warpgates and 3 robo. If you overbuild vikings you get raped by their ground army and are forced to land, then they make 3 colossus and rape face. This happens over and over -_- Yep, once Protoss gets 3/4 base and 10+ gates you'll be lucky to break even every fight in tvp, and then comes the damn 10 zealots as reinforcement Ghosts. I know terran's love to cry that "ghosts really aren't that good", but they REALLY ARE. There was a recent IPL game (IPL 4 Qualifiers I think), Thorzain vs White Ra on shattered Temple. Going into the big fight Ra had a 20 food advantage, upgrade advantage, and a scary Zealot/Collossi/Archon/Stalker army. He got rolled, completely destroyed. Thorzain EMP'd enough to destroy the archons and snipped every single zealot in a matter of second. All that was left were a few sad, lonely, colossi that were quickly cleaned up. White Ra reinforced with those 10 zealot's which were once again snipped into nothingness. My general point is, stuff can be dealt with if you try something new. The current late game P composition was tailored to destroy generic MMM, so of course MMM loses.
As i remember White Ra didnt do a Zealot/Collossi/Archon/Stalker army, he did mass mass zealot and archons, and thorzain had basicly a handful of marauders and a ton of ghosts with obviously make short work of that unit compostion.
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On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work.
Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes.
What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup.
It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc.
The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time.
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On December 01 2011 14:44 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup. It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc. The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time.
Oh yeah I agree with you, that was just a sarcastic poke at those guys that prefer to cheese every game out of laziness once they encounter a tougher situation.
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On December 01 2011 14:42 Alexstrasas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 13:59 Jacobs Ladder wrote:On December 01 2011 12:50 IlIlIlIl wrote:On December 01 2011 12:42 Sadist wrote:On December 01 2011 12:32 Horseballs wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. Or, they are like me and had a ~36% ratio while playing for the long game and decided the matchup was frustrating and boring to play and started to one-base all in every game. So far my win rate with one base all-ins has been around 80%, and yet my overall winrate vs protoss for this season is currently at 47%. The matchup is boring, bio is boring, and toss late-game can get ridiculously out of hand if you aren't a top tier player. I dont think it is physically possible for terran to deal with 15+ warpgates and 3 robo. If you overbuild vikings you get raped by their ground army and are forced to land, then they make 3 colossus and rape face. This happens over and over -_- Yep, once Protoss gets 3/4 base and 10+ gates you'll be lucky to break even every fight in tvp, and then comes the damn 10 zealots as reinforcement Ghosts. I know terran's love to cry that "ghosts really aren't that good", but they REALLY ARE. There was a recent IPL game (IPL 4 Qualifiers I think), Thorzain vs White Ra on shattered Temple. Going into the big fight Ra had a 20 food advantage, upgrade advantage, and a scary Zealot/Collossi/Archon/Stalker army. He got rolled, completely destroyed. Thorzain EMP'd enough to destroy the archons and snipped every single zealot in a matter of second. All that was left were a few sad, lonely, colossi that were quickly cleaned up. White Ra reinforced with those 10 zealot's which were once again snipped into nothingness. My general point is, stuff can be dealt with if you try something new. The current late game P composition was tailored to destroy generic MMM, so of course MMM loses. As i remember White Ra didnt do a Zealot/Collossi/Archon/Stalker army, he did mass mass zealot and archons, and thorzain had basicly a handful of marauders and a ton of ghosts with obviously make short work of that unit compostion. He had 3 or 4 colossi, I might have been wrong about the stalkers. None the less, Zealot's are one of the big T complaints right now (note the post I replied to was talking about how food 10 zealot reinforcements are) and I was pointing out that adding something that's not part of the normal composition deals with it quite well.
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There are "problems" with the Terran side of TvP, but its only a problem for everyone except Bomber, IMMVP and probably PoltPrime so nbd. I kinda want less people to play Terran. I dig it. Im a hipster nerd and Zerg and Protoss are way too mainstream.
Back the irrelevant topic title, bunker upgrades might be really sweet in this matchup.
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I ve always found 2 base colossi pushes hard to stop. This is partially because i like to take a fastish third. but it feels like even if i know its coming i cant stop it. Feels like toss have slowly learned to deal with drops better (or i ve gotten to the level where toss are good enough to do so) HT also shut down drops like crazy. I agree with others that it feels like with storm / colossi the toss army is too ez touse for the power it has. I dont feel the same kind of micro that zerg or terran has to do.
bunkers are useless vs any colossi or heavy zlot composition from toss past 2 base by the way. unless u made like 5 in which case they can just atk somewhere else and it still isnt hugely effective vs colossi armies. The only really effective space control in TvP imo is the planetary fortress.
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On December 01 2011 14:47 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 14:44 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup. It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc. The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time. Oh yeah I agree with you, that was just a sarcastic poke at those guys that prefer to cheese every game out of laziness once they encounter a tougher situation.
It appears that like most people out there, you didn't take the time to read half my post before impulsively writing a few lines with 0 substance in them. I have played MANY games vs protoss past the 15 minute mark. I have tried MANY different things. I can say for certain that YOU have NOT. I suggest you try it before criticizing anyone. After hundreds of games and an abysmal win percentage, I have decided that it is not worth raising my blood pressure trying to play a macro game.
Terran is the unforgiving race in that I have been 3/3 vs 1/1 and gotten crushed in the blink of an eye while being up 70 supply, these are rage inducing types of situations that I do not want to happen, after all I am playing a game, and games are meant to be for fun are they not? If you a number of high level terran none of them like going into a long game vs protoss, its just the way it is.
I am not sure why I even bothered responding, as I doubt you will read this post before shooting off a couple lines of "terran scum qquing again lulz l2play terran so ez." but again I highly suggest trying out a couple games of TVP.
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On December 01 2011 15:05 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 14:47 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:44 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup. It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc. The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time. Oh yeah I agree with you, that was just a sarcastic poke at those guys that prefer to cheese every game out of laziness once they encounter a tougher situation. It appears that like most people out there, you didn't take the time to read half my post before impulsively writing a few lines with 0 substance in them. I have played MANY games vs protoss past the 15 minute mark. I have tried MANY different things. I can say for certain that YOU have NOT. I suggest you try it before criticizing anyone. After hundreds of games and an abysmal win percentage, I have decided that it is not worth raising my blood pressure trying to play a macro game. Terran is the unforgiving race in that I have been 3/3 vs 1/1 and gotten crushed in the blink of an eye while being up 70 supply, these are rage inducing types of situations that I do not want to happen, after all I am playing a game, and games are meant to be for fun are they not? If you a number of high level terran none of them like going into a long game vs protoss, its just the way it is. I am not sure why I even bothered responding, as I doubt you will read this post before shooting off a couple lines of "terran scum qquing again lulz l2play terran so ez." but again I highly suggest trying out a couple games of TVP.
its all about unit composition and army positioning, Dont let ur shit get stormed.. When he comes at u with hts run back ur army and send ur ghost forward to EMP or snipe, and send army back in... if he has alot of collosi... Engage and run army while viking snipe his shit.
there u go : )
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On December 01 2011 15:07 VPCursed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 15:05 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 14:47 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:44 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup. It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc. The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time. Oh yeah I agree with you, that was just a sarcastic poke at those guys that prefer to cheese every game out of laziness once they encounter a tougher situation. It appears that like most people out there, you didn't take the time to read half my post before impulsively writing a few lines with 0 substance in them. I have played MANY games vs protoss past the 15 minute mark. I have tried MANY different things. I can say for certain that YOU have NOT. I suggest you try it before criticizing anyone. After hundreds of games and an abysmal win percentage, I have decided that it is not worth raising my blood pressure trying to play a macro game. Terran is the unforgiving race in that I have been 3/3 vs 1/1 and gotten crushed in the blink of an eye while being up 70 supply, these are rage inducing types of situations that I do not want to happen, after all I am playing a game, and games are meant to be for fun are they not? If you a number of high level terran none of them like going into a long game vs protoss, its just the way it is. I am not sure why I even bothered responding, as I doubt you will read this post before shooting off a couple lines of "terran scum qquing again lulz l2play terran so ez." but again I highly suggest trying out a couple games of TVP. its all about unit composition and army positioning, Dont let ur shit get stormed.. When he comes at u with hts run back ur army and send ur ghost forward to EMP or snipe, and send army back in... if he has alot of collosi... Engage and run army while viking snipe his shit. there u go : )
in that case protoss can easily win games too. if theyre going heavy marauder add a lot of chargelots, use good forcefields to maximize collosi/ht damage before they end up dying, dont let ur shit get emped... when he comes at you with his ghost or vikings run your expensive units back and use your stalkers to snipe the stuff and blink back out, always keep obs with your army so you can track his movements and storm/feedback before he has time to react.
theory doesn't work
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On December 01 2011 15:24 dhe95 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 15:07 VPCursed wrote:On December 01 2011 15:05 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 14:47 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:44 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup. It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc. The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time. Oh yeah I agree with you, that was just a sarcastic poke at those guys that prefer to cheese every game out of laziness once they encounter a tougher situation. It appears that like most people out there, you didn't take the time to read half my post before impulsively writing a few lines with 0 substance in them. I have played MANY games vs protoss past the 15 minute mark. I have tried MANY different things. I can say for certain that YOU have NOT. I suggest you try it before criticizing anyone. After hundreds of games and an abysmal win percentage, I have decided that it is not worth raising my blood pressure trying to play a macro game. Terran is the unforgiving race in that I have been 3/3 vs 1/1 and gotten crushed in the blink of an eye while being up 70 supply, these are rage inducing types of situations that I do not want to happen, after all I am playing a game, and games are meant to be for fun are they not? If you a number of high level terran none of them like going into a long game vs protoss, its just the way it is. I am not sure why I even bothered responding, as I doubt you will read this post before shooting off a couple lines of "terran scum qquing again lulz l2play terran so ez." but again I highly suggest trying out a couple games of TVP. its all about unit composition and army positioning, Dont let ur shit get stormed.. When he comes at u with hts run back ur army and send ur ghost forward to EMP or snipe, and send army back in... if he has alot of collosi... Engage and run army while viking snipe his shit. there u go : ) in that case protoss can easily win games too. if theyre going heavy marauder add a lot of chargelots, use good forcefields to maximize collosi/ht damage before they end up dying, dont let ur shit get emped... when he comes at you with his ghost or vikings run your expensive units back and use your stalkers to snipe the stuff and blink back out, always keep obs with your army so you can track his movements and storm/feedback before he has time to react. theory doesn't work
That actually sounds like how both players should play, and whoever does it better would win.
Zounds, we can't have that here!
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Terran have one of the best defender advantages in the game in many ways. The Bunker and proper placement of buildings can lead to sim cities that make it very difficult to break terran opponents. In fact anyone who has played enough PvT knows that attacking defending terran expos or mains without an overwhelming force can often be a fatal mistake. The same applies in ZvT. well entrenched tanks, well placed bunkers, and planetary fortresses dramatically augment a terran on defense. Yes immortals crush bunkers and that can be a difficult push but careless attacks on terran bases can create massive supply differences. I think all races are pretty equal in their defender's advantage, protoss have forcefields, zerg have creep and fast reinforcements, terran have siege tanks, pf's, and bunkers. I don't think your arguement is solid. I play random and i find defense advantageous for all races in terms of skirmishes. try playing other races and you may find terran is just as good as the others
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On December 01 2011 15:07 VPCursed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 15:05 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 14:47 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:44 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup. It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc. The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time. Oh yeah I agree with you, that was just a sarcastic poke at those guys that prefer to cheese every game out of laziness once they encounter a tougher situation. It appears that like most people out there, you didn't take the time to read half my post before impulsively writing a few lines with 0 substance in them. I have played MANY games vs protoss past the 15 minute mark. I have tried MANY different things. I can say for certain that YOU have NOT. I suggest you try it before criticizing anyone. After hundreds of games and an abysmal win percentage, I have decided that it is not worth raising my blood pressure trying to play a macro game. Terran is the unforgiving race in that I have been 3/3 vs 1/1 and gotten crushed in the blink of an eye while being up 70 supply, these are rage inducing types of situations that I do not want to happen, after all I am playing a game, and games are meant to be for fun are they not? If you a number of high level terran none of them like going into a long game vs protoss, its just the way it is. I am not sure why I even bothered responding, as I doubt you will read this post before shooting off a couple lines of "terran scum qquing again lulz l2play terran so ez." but again I highly suggest trying out a couple games of TVP. its all about unit composition and army positioning, Dont let ur shit get stormed.. When he comes at u with hts run back ur army and send ur ghost forward to EMP or snipe, and send army back in... if he has alot of collosi... Engage and run army while viking snipe his shit. there u go : )
This would be great if it actually worked, and if done flawlessly.. otherwise GL with that
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On December 01 2011 15:05 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 14:47 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:44 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup. It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc. The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time. Oh yeah I agree with you, that was just a sarcastic poke at those guys that prefer to cheese every game out of laziness once they encounter a tougher situation. It appears that like most people out there, you didn't take the time to read half my post before impulsively writing a few lines with 0 substance in them. I have played MANY games vs protoss past the 15 minute mark. I have tried MANY different things. I can say for certain that YOU have NOT. I suggest you try it before criticizing anyone. After hundreds of games and an abysmal win percentage, I have decided that it is not worth raising my blood pressure trying to play a macro game. Terran is the unforgiving race in that I have been 3/3 vs 1/1 and gotten crushed in the blink of an eye while being up 70 supply, these are rage inducing types of situations that I do not want to happen, after all I am playing a game, and games are meant to be for fun are they not? If you a number of high level terran none of them like going into a long game vs protoss, its just the way it is. I am not sure why I even bothered responding, as I doubt you will read this post before shooting off a couple lines of "terran scum qquing again lulz l2play terran so ez." but again I highly suggest trying out a couple games of TVP.
Well you can say for certain that I haven't played many long games vs Protoss, that's not too hard, I play Protoss.
More seriously, I'm not saying Terran is easy. And I did try Terran out and it didn't seem particularly hard to me either, I mean, I can beat diamond Protoss fairly easily with my offrace if it means something. I have what I would consider very good mechanics for an amateur, so Terran's requirements (supposedly higher) are not a problem for me. What's your level? I would guess diamond or something, because I don't think that master terrans have a problem with 15 minutes protoss (it's harder for them against a 20-25 minutes protoss on big maps, I guess). I mean, how the fuck can you lose a 3/3 vs 1/1 fight with 70 more supply? 3/3 hellions vs 1/1 void rays maybe? What the hell man, even A-move is enough with 3-3 MMM stim with that much advantage, against most comps (even banelings, colossus, storm...). I would gladly see the replay of that
But I wasn't really trying to diss you, Terran is hard, we get it. If you're frustrated with the matchup, there is little I can do, but the problem comes mainly from you, not from the game. TvP is not impossible to the point where you risk cardiac arrest...
Edit: I want to precise a bit the "LOLOL I have good mechanics" part. It's to the point where I rarely miss something on the minimap, my macro doesn't slip up, I rarely miss pylons, my micro is pretty decent (4 control groups and casting multiple spells are not a problem). I have 120 APM (post patch) past 15 minutes. What I mean is I don't lose because I fucked up mechanically most of the time. I lose because I made bad decisions, I didn't scout enough, my build was bad (but most of them are good :D), something strategy related. It's not to the point where I'm a fucking BW god with unparalleled multitasking either, don't get me wrong. But I'm quite proud of where I'm at mechanically.
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Northern Ireland117 Posts
Ok protoss bias consider this, look at TvT or BW TvP.
BW TvP : Mech vs Arbiter zealot/goon/HT/shuttle - protoss would use their moibilty advantage to counter attack and pull tanks out of position to get a good enagement. This required ALOT of skill and understanding from both players. Mech is technically supposed to destroy protoss in a straight up engagement.
SC2 TvT: Mech vs BIO is the same idea using mobility to take down a mech army but mech will still destroy bio in a straight up engagement.
SC2: TvP: Bio vs DEATHBALL were meant to abuse our mobility to beat a toss ball of death buit the HUGE problem is collosus and the ball of death is HUGELY mobile and increibly easy to control. The increibly frustrating and gay thing is that a PRO with a deathball and a ladder noob with a deathball is exactly the same thing. It requires exactly NO SKILL what so ever to use. Collosus is incredibly mobile and this is the biggest problem in this matchup but coupled with the fact zealots with upgrades block your army so well you cant do much dmg to anything.
So basically were meant to be using out mobility to win but that doesnt exactly work because TOSS is so mobile. Macro advantages and upgrade advantages are meaning less in this matchup no matter how big the advantage most of the time a bad protoss player can string together a few good engagements because of collosus melting your bio so fast you cant do anything.
And let me remind protoss players right clicking is NOT micro for collosus its so mobile it seems to outrun non-stimmed bio which is kind of hilarious. Yes spreading bio can help but if you cant deal with the collosus instantly.
Protoss _shouldnt_ loose TvP at all its increible how many bad protoss players are replying to this thread pretending they understand the game at all i am diamond Zerg and diamond Terran I understand those races very well. Protoss drives me crazy look at the latest TvP games in GSL and dreamhack they were soo shit to watch nothing really happens.
i only win in TvP if they cheese me and i defend or I get some good damage done with drops in the midgame and go for a timming because my upgrades are better. Its so gimicky this matchup its insane. And its so frustring that protoss can get away with so much be so far behind but warpgates and chrono keep them in the game along with such an amazing defenders advantage with Storm in their choke or collosus its really not fair how hard this matchup is for terran.
I have played countless games in TvP got coaching from incontrol in TvP but as of today i have given up trying to macro vs protoss its entirely stupidly hard for terran to do so.
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The protoss army is hugely mobile. Hmph. That's news to me. How fast does that unit that zergs always bitch about move? How fast does the toss ball with collosi or worse with templar (worst spellcaster) move? Now once we get our arbiter back <3...
It's complete fallacy and myth that a terran army can't engage a toss one and destroy it completely in a straightup battle. We have /seen/ this repeatedly in the past few months with broken emp (unequal radius and damage) and viking counts straight up crushing better toss players repeatedly. Thorzain's style before this was one based on compensating for low apm (something in the foreign scene attributed with terrans [Sjow, Thorzain, Goody]).
You central premise of your argument is that it takes especially positioning and engagement for a terran army to crush a toss army. I don't think that's true in the sense that it was true with engagements on tank lines in BW. Toss can get screwed as hard and still lack the ability to retreat without being super efficient in a straight up engagement. In BW atleast the tank army would be damn efficient in wiping out a force. (Also Terran force had an excellent harass unit in the form of 'free" vultures). Bio is very mobile and does way more damage than a BW toss army ever did.
Your talk about defenders advantage and macro advantage are completely and utterly off the mark. +1 ground attack scales better than any protoss forge ups. I believe it was alicia who made some lovely post about +3/+3 toss eclipsed by +1/+1 (atleast with marauders in his example). There /are/ tech timings where a toss is safe from a certain critical mass of bio overwhelming him unless you can catch him out of position or you have tech to crush it. Still you have so many options that I still believe there are few reasons for terrans to be behind economically ever. Within a month or two the new surge of 2 base timings will be understood and good terrans will still crush the more fragile races.
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On December 02 2011 03:29 redbrain wrote:
Protoss _shouldnt_ loose TvP at all its increible how many bad protoss players are replying to this thread pretending they understand the game at all i am diamond Zerg and diamond Terran I understand those races very well. Protoss drives me crazy look at the latest TvP games in GSL and dreamhack they were soo shit to watch nothing really happens.
Well, let's all apologize to this guy for our poor understanding of the game and it's matchups.
He's in DIAMOND, and clearly knows what's up. Looks like the rest of us can stop posting now that he's in this thread laying down the law.
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The people stating that bunkers are enough, are clearly not terran themselves, or are atleast below diamond. Early game, bunkers help of course, but they don't do the trick, as toss have ff's and lots of aoe in the midgame, which also gives the protoss a defenders advantage.
With force fields, the toss can basicly make an infinite unbreakable wall, while trapping units in the process. Terrans can't just build bunkers and close zealots in a tiny spot, i wish we could though. Medivacs are becoming very important (or have been the entire time) because of mobility. Terran has always had the mobility advantage, until recently with the massive usage of warp prisms.
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I think if people want the match-up to be fixed they need to remove both the colossus and the marauder and rethink it from there cause these are the big units that are causing problems for either race.
Terran moaning about templar still need to learn that ghosts outrange them
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On December 02 2011 03:29 redbrain wrote:
Ok protoss bias consider this, look at TvT or BW TvP.
BW TvP : Mech vs Arbiter zealot/goon/HT/shuttle - protoss would use their moibilty advantage to counter attack and pull tanks out of position to get a good enagement. This required ALOT of skill and understanding from both players. Mech is technically supposed to destroy protoss in a straight up engagement.
SC2 TvT: Mech vs BIO is the same idea using mobility to take down a mech army but mech will still destroy bio in a straight up engagement.
SC2: TvP: Bio vs DEATHBALL were meant to abuse our mobility to beat a toss ball of death buit the HUGE problem is collosus and the ball of death is HUGELY mobile and increibly easy to control. The increibly frustrating and gay thing is that a PRO with a deathball and a ladder noob with a deathball is exactly the same thing. It requires exactly NO SKILL what so ever to use. Collosus is incredibly mobile and this is the biggest problem in this matchup but coupled with the fact zealots with upgrades block your army so well you cant do much dmg to anything.
So basically were meant to be using out mobility to win but that doesnt exactly work because TOSS is so mobile. Macro advantages and upgrade advantages are meaning less in this matchup no matter how big the advantage most of the time a bad protoss player can string together a few good engagements because of collosus melting your bio so fast you cant do anything.
And let me remind protoss players right clicking is NOT micro for collosus its so mobile it seems to outrun non-stimmed bio which is kind of hilarious. Yes spreading bio can help but if you cant deal with the collosus instantly.
Protoss _shouldnt_ loose TvP at all its increible how many bad protoss players are replying to this thread pretending they understand the game at all i am diamond Zerg and diamond Terran I understand those races very well. Protoss drives me crazy look at the latest TvP games in GSL and dreamhack they were soo shit to watch nothing really happens.
i only win in TvP if they cheese me and i defend or I get some good damage done with drops in the midgame and go for a timming because my upgrades are better. Its so gimicky this matchup its insane. And its so frustring that protoss can get away with so much be so far behind but warpgates and chrono keep them in the game along with such an amazing defenders advantage with Storm in their choke or collosus its really not fair how hard this matchup is for terran.
I have played countless games in TvP got coaching from incontrol in TvP but as of today i have given up trying to macro vs protoss its entirely stupidly hard for terran to do so.
I second that. This myth that has been going on since forever that the protoss army is immobile is fucking ridiculous. Play mech and see what immobile means.
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It's not about these two units. The whole matchup has been volatile since the release of sc2. Both races are constantly trying to punish tiny little mistakes and those tiny little mistakes have greater impact than they should have.
One single drop, one single emp, one single missing bunker, missing forcefield, missing stim or storm can cost you the game. Fights usually go very onesided. Toss lack a good defenders advantage, but have strong pushes etc etc.
2 removals won't fix the matchup
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I've played macro games with toss every single game i ever played with toss unless they cheese me. Basically the the fact is at diamond level, Terran is much harder to play at the matchup. It is undeniable. I get on protoss and smash master level terrans in the face because I can warp in 20 zealots just incase i have a resonably bad engagement and I will still survive. Then I macro up and a attack into the terran with storm, collosus, and chargelots and eventually wittle them down and roll them over. Also having to warp in to deal with harrass is pretty nice to. As terran, If i have a bad engagement I can easily get rolled over by a proxy pylon even if im up by 1 or 2 bases. Even 3 bases, If i have a really bad engagment because of 1 mistake that takes place over a split second ill get rolled over by an a attack. Protoss can not say the same because their mistakes have a lot more leeway at the diamond level. Just the way it is, not saying they are op but the micro mechanics they have given to zealots and collosus are pretty dam elementary. I only play macro games and the reason why terrans have a hard time is not because, lol herp derp you timing attacking don't work anymore learn to play past the 15 minute mark. Its cause we either micro correctly and come out on a decent engagement but at the same time we slip on macro. Not much you can do without better mechanics. So in reality its either micro correctly and slip on macro or don't slip on macro and come out on a bad engagement. The only solution is to get better, but being rolled over after being ahead in upgrades is really frustrating, esp when a protoss player can A attack to do that and just press the storm button. I've played terran since the beginning but its funny, i can play protoss in tvp and destroy people better than me at terran. Which doesn't seem right because my protoss is super sloppy but w.e. Its the way it is I guess.
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Let's not forget the Archon, another great a-moving aoe damage dealer.
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Isnt Puma known for using alot of 1-1-1 ? Coincidence?
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On December 02 2011 05:08 Eraserhead wrote:
Let's not forget the Archon, another great a-moving aoe damage dealer.
Have terrans stopped making ghosts after the nerf?
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He found that upgrade that made Terran units immune to all psionic and plasma based damage...many refer to it as a Terran All-in or the "1-1-1". This elusive "1-1-1" includes anything from classic 1-1-1's to scv/marine all ins.
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Northern Ireland117 Posts
yeah look at any recent bo series terrans are insanity forced to use cheesy tactics to get a big lead and thats the _only_ way to play this matchup i am so frustrated at it and its making me play like dog shit recently TvP has become such a fucking joke.
The actual games are boring and really stupid and now i chesse everygame cause its entirely too pointless to play this matchup now its destoryed the experience of learning terran for me now so much i am switching back to zerg as my main race.
I swear to fuck thogh sentry drop FF ramp needs nerfed so much its retarded the warp prism is overpower the warp field ability needs to be a long upgrade because so much of warpin is so overpowered and having this to instantly have an army in my base for free and no risk its just not funny anymore
TvP is such a fucking joke ahh i am going insane
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I cannot win TvP for the life of me at the moment. What's killing me is three things:
1. I need THE perfect engagement, after pulling off THE perfect harassment. By which I mean I kill half his probes and then split my forces and get an ultimate concave.
2. He doesn't use upgrades. At all. In fact, sometimes, he doesn't even have to.
3. No defenders advantage at all. I can literally kill off all but three stalkers and an immortal, finish building another wave of units and a bunch of chargelots will finish me off.
EMP just doesn't cut it atm. Protoss Deathballs are often carrying 3 different types of AoE in addition to Storm and they're getting utterly ridiculous right now. By comparison, it feels like Protoss just macro up and kill me with their faster upgrades and faster and more powerful tech. I can't even hold space because siege tanks suck ass against Protoss.
Tried everything I can think of. Ravens, mass ghosts, nukes, banshees, even battlecruisers late game to even the odds, and that just resulted in an entire fleet of feedbacked BCs.
The number of Toss that I've played who I outexpanded, out macroed, out upgraded and then got slaughtered in one engagement and rolled over is getting stupid now.
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EPT
