EPT[D] TvP and defenders advantage - Page 5
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spajn
34 Posts
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
If you have one strong matchup, for example TvZ, then you will have >50% win rate in that matchup. This will increase your MMR and cause you to play vs better players, which will reduce your win rate in one or both of the other matchups. There will be other people who are weaker in TvZ but stronger in TvP. | ||
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NipponBanzai
Canada518 Posts
On November 29 2011 05:35 hzflank wrote: This has nothing to do with TvP balance and everything to do with the whole point of the ladder system. Unless you are at the very top or very bottom of the ladder, you will roughly have a 50% win rate *assuming you have played enough games for it to balance out). That is what the ladder does. If you have one strong matchup, for example TvZ, then you will have >50% win rate in that matchup. This will increase your MMR and cause you to play vs better players, which will reduce your win rate in one or both of the other matchups. There will be other people who are weaker in TvZ but stronger in TvP. Do you know anybody whose strongest match up is TvP? Between me and my friends that play terran, TvP is our worst match-up. Obviously this is a small sample group so it can't really be considered but it would be interesting to see peoples opinion who have really good TvP. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
On November 29 2011 05:23 S_SienZ wrote: =.="' Say something as the everyday casual player, opinion gets dismissed as what happens in "the wooden leagues" don't matter. Cite what pros have said, I'm hoping on the bandwagon. I give up. I wasn't saying what ClouD said was definite truth. My post was mostly pointing out to the guy who I was replying to that it's not just the low league Terrans that are complaining. sorry I don't mean to be a dick to you specifically but you're citing one terran who isn't even putting up strong results and even when terran was considered "OP" he wasn't winning anything huge either. I'm not bashing on you, or bashing on cloud here I'm just stating that most of what protoss is doing now, they've only been doing for the past month or so but finally they've been able to crack the PvT match up. Whether the buffs truly did help or whether the protoss players just got smarter, I don't know and neither can cloud. But zealots and double forges and have always been an issue in TvP, it just hasn't been getting the attention it deserves until after several protoss start winning major tournaments and I find that funny | ||
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Tuxedo
United States134 Posts
its the ebb and flow of the game brotha, different points of the games offer timings for the different races :D | ||
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Fenrisulf
United States325 Posts
As a player who has been playing protoss since beta, and at least at the high diamond level, I find TvP to be the easiest match up by far for me. (Started learning Terran and Zerg about 2 months ago for fun). Always go for an FE but don't be greedy, scout. Use your scv to see if he has 1 or 2 gas, if you see 2, he is definitely going some all in or aggro build, if 1 gas or no gas, most likely expansion, but send another scv (or same scv) again a couple minutes later to check for a nexus. If he never puts down a nexus, then STAY UP YOUR RAMP. If he is also fast expanding, Then its safe to come down your ramp as soon as you have 1 or 2 marauders and a decent number of marines. Also, check for proxy pylons, if you kill a proxy pylon their aggression/all-in will come that much later, may even be crippled. After that, upgrade, scout, and drop drop drop. He has stalkers near the edge of his base? Find another corner. Patrolling stalkers? aggro him somewhere else so he stops paying attention for a bit, then drop. Nothing at the edge? drop and kill all his tech. Don't be scared away by 2 stalkers sitting idly there, if you can draw his attention somewhere else for just a moment, you can successfully drop and easily clean up a bunch of units/tech. Another important thing is to always know what tech he is going. You must react properly to HT or collosi. If you see him put down templar or collosus tech, immediately respond with the appropriate counter and also ATTACK. There is always a gaping hole in the protosses defenses in the moments before they get out storm or collosus/thermal lance. If he has forcefields then just poke up run, poke up again, and in the meantime, drop drop drop. An important thing to remember is to always keep on the aggression. Don't be passive, keep poking his front before you get drops and add drops to his back after. With conc and stim, there is no way he can catch you unless you let him FF you in, so just always stay at the edge of his range when you are harassing. And its important to keep up with upgrades too, Yes, a double forge toss who is chronoing all his upgrades will get them before you, but not getting your upgrades at all doesn't help. Fighting 2/2 to 3/3 is fine, fighting 0/0 to 3/3 is not. | ||
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Mowr
Sweden791 Posts
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Termit
Sweden3466 Posts
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spajn
34 Posts
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On November 29 2011 05:51 spajn wrote: Its a boring matchup, I have played nearly 2k games and i cant remember a single epic TvP game I have ever played but i have countless ZvT memories and some damn good TvT. Its just a boring MU, 2 balls meeting and whoever first gets the killer aoe effect in place slaughter the other ball and its gg.. zzzzzz Yeah I do agree from Protoss perspective that it's really boring to play PvT, but TvP is so much fun! You can do drops to snipe buildings while pushing or expanding and stuff like that. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On November 29 2011 06:01 K3Nyy wrote: Yeah I do agree from Protoss perspective that it's really boring to play PvT, but TvP is so much fun! You can do drops to snipe buildings while pushing or expanding and stuff like that. Good protoss doesn die to drops these days, I have decent multi task and the only way I manage to win is if I do a timing distraction into the main and snipe a third/second and run the fuck out and return with a third taken and a heavy macro advantage, Good tosses dont take that anymore though, they know if they defend a third past 15 mins they got my numbers, I mean ill admit part of the reason I lose late game engagements is my inability to see obs due to being forced to play on low graphics but yea theres always that 1 or 2 pesky HT that gets away and ruins everything. A couple of storms + collosi and 3-3-2 zealots rushing its a nightmare to control. Pro's can do it sure but pfft. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
Anyways I think one of the problems is that, unlike in TvZ where Terran adds more and more support such as tanks and medivacs, then thors for mutas, etc. etc., and then finishing 3/3 infantry upgrades and then starting to go 3/3 on mech upgrades and/or 3/3 on ship upgrades (or just 3 mech attack and 3 ship attack), meaning Terran can actually transition into focusing on a different tech tree (only adding starports or only adding mech units, making only support marines and instead focusing all on mech units), you can't transition from Bio to Mech in TvP and Air is still largely unexplored, at least not easily enough. I think one of the intended concepts is that, since P T Z are the "strong, expensive, quality" race, the "middle" race, and the "weak, numerable, cheap, quantity" race, that Terran is supposed to force Protoss to draw units away from their deathball much like Zerg does in ZvT by harassing. However the problem is, maps have been getting bigger and bigger, and that only helps the Protoss' lategame advantage of constantly rewarping in anywhere on the map while hindering Terran's ability to drop harass. Perhaps if they buff drop harass lategame by, for example, changing Medivacs to 1 supply to allow more Medivacs in an army, it would help out Terran in the lategame by allowing them to harass more and also mitigate a lot more AOE damage by having more Medivacs in the army lategame if wanted. | ||
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SevenShots
Germany84 Posts
In either case if youre out of position youre dead. Also a BIG problem i have is, that the Protoss just sits outside my natural in front of my bunkers with a huge ass army and i HAVE to keep half my natural scvs there to not die if he decides to attack. but he just doesnt and slowly pushes ahead. :/ I don't know. I'm slowly getting frustrated with the matchup. Actually i really like to play tvp, but its so hard to see everything coming early enough. | ||
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Alexstrasas
302 Posts
On November 29 2011 05:39 Schwang wrote: I think if you use repair + bunkers properly then there is no issue. Mr. Mass Forcefields wants to have a word with you. Or you can just bypass all the bunkers completely with a warp prism or by warping up from the low ground. | ||
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Vague
170 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 29 2011 06:12 Alexstrasas wrote: Mr. Mass Forcefields wants to have a word with you. Or you can just bypass all the bunkers completely with a warp prism or by warping up from the low ground. Zero sympathy for terrans having to deal with drops. Zero. If you scout a fast robo, except them and respect them. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On November 29 2011 03:45 K3Nyy wrote: Protoss allins can be dealt with if you scout and prepare for it. If you're seriously saying Terran has no defender's advantage, then you've seriously never built a bunker. They have the strongest defender's advantage. I don't think that you understand what the term defender's advantage means. There are some key components that make up "defender's advantage. Bunkers, cannons, sunkens, and other forms of static defense all are a part of defender's advantage, but there's more to it as well. In addition to static defense, you also have terrain advantage (which is only sometimes present); namely, when you're defending your main, generally you have a ramp which congests the attacker's movement and makes it more difficult to assault you. However, on many maps, there is no ramp to the natural and therefore this aspect of defender's advantage is lost. It's something that all races have to deal with, however, so this isn't the biggest deal. The real problem, however, is that Protoss gets around the most important aspect of defender's advantage. The most important part of defender's advantage is that your units have to travel across the map, meaning that if you and your opponent macro the same and are producing at the exact same rates, then the defender should win. In every other RTS I have ever played, if the attacker wants to have the same number of units (whether it's Age of Empires, WarCraft, or any other RTS), the only way to ensure that they keep up is by proxying structures. What that means is that you can get around this part of defender's advantage, but if you do, and it fails, your production is stranded in the worst part of the map. Terran can fly away their buildings, but that means that they're not producing units and become very vulnerable to all-ins or just plain aggression. Protoss, on the other hand, has Warpgates. Warpgates have a myriad of uses that I don't think have been completely explored yet. Protoss has to proxy a pylon, but the risk of losing a pylon compared to losing all your production is a completely different scenario. Warpgates remove defender's advantage, which lead to the fact that PvP was (is) constantly 4 Gate, 4 Gate, 4 Gate. TvP and PvT both are filled with goofy, hard to scout all-ins from both sides. They're ridiculously hard to defend, easy to execute, and more than anything else deadly. Terran has the 1/1/1, Protoss has 3 Gate Void Ray. Terran has 3 Rax, Protoss has 4 Gate. Terran has 2 Port Cloak Banshee, Protoss has DTs. Personally, I struggle more with 3 Gate Void Ray and 4 Gate Warp Prism more than I do with handling any other early game build order. They're difficult to hold, require that you scout them and then often infer from what you've seen. I can sometimes sneak an SCV into my opponent's base, but if I scout 3 Gate Ways, I can't tell if it's a 3 Gate expo, a 3 Gate Void Ray, or even 3 Gate DT play. Similarly, I imagine that for a Protoss player it can be extremely difficult to tell what build I am doing, whether it's a 1/1/1, a reactor expo, or a 2 Rax Reactor first. Of course, Protoss players talk about the scan, and how great of a scouting tool it is, but really, if the Protoss knows what they're doing, it doesn't help. Once again, I'll scan, see 3 Gates, and then have to guess whether or not they have a DT shrine on the other side of the map. I can randomly scout places, which will sometimes work, but there's no sure way to tell what they're doing until they have a nexus or there's a huge army at your front door. Then, if you survive the early game shenanigans, you get to the mid-stage. Personally, I think that there is a major disparity here, because if Protoss makes Colossi, and T doesn't have Vikings, T dies. If P has Storm (or even Archons sometimes) and T doesn't have Ghosts, T dies. And still, it is difficult to reliably scout the Protoss. If P powers their upgrades, and T doesn't start them quickly, then the timing window where P is 3/3 and T is not becomes huge, and subsequently T dies. By this point, the Protoss can get observers, which, can be destroyed, but every observer the T kills (assuming the T uses a scan and doesn't run obs into a turret) the P can know that if a big bio push comes, it will be weaker (Scan=less MULES -> less minerals -> less units). This will probably sound odd, but I think that if Terran could still float their Ebays, it would be easier. Then, we would be able to proxy an Ebay, lift it off to scout, and save some minerals to build turrets if we scout DTs or Stargate play. I've thought about Proxying a barracks in an attempt to scout my opponent or opening up with proxy Marauders to punish greedy Protoss players and then scout, but even then, it costs a decent amount of minerals (both in Barracks cost, SCV not mining, and having to build it at a fairly bad time). But all that is a bit off topic, the real issue being addressed by this thread is Warpgates. They're an interesting mechanic, but I personally they don't have a place in a competitive game. They provide Protoss with a level of flexibility and mobility while providing them the tools to have remarkable offense and defense. People can go on and on about "Terran is OP" or "Nerf Terran wahh," but I really think that Warpgates just do not belong in StarCraft. It's a pretty big ultimatum, as it's an important part of the race, but Warpgates provide Protoss with vast possibilities early game aggression (removing defender's advantage), allow them to pick off drops and other harassment in the mid-late game, while allowing them to harass in the mid-late game (warping in a few Zealots and running them into a mineal line can be devastating to a Terran economy). Then you have builds like 3 Gate Void Ray or 4 Gate Warp Prism, where the Protoss player is literally building units in my base, and at this point, I no longer have the terrain, the static defense, nor the extra units, completely removing defender's advantage. I'm not necessarily saying that Warpgates in the current game are OP, but Warpgates just don't belong. They're one of Blizzard's gimmicky ideas that do not belong in competitive play, just like the Mothership or the new Replicant unit. Not to go too far off topic, but I recently have discovered that mech can work in TvP. Watch Jjakji vs Oz Game 1 on Daybreak. It's not the standard mech army you would expect in TvT or TvZ, but Thor/Banshee compositions are really strong, especially if you throw a raven or two in to take out observers and drop PDDs. If you're having trouble with TvP (like a lot of Terrans who aren't Code S) I would recommend trying it out. It's fairly micro-intensive in the harassment (with cloak banshees), but it requires a lot less micro later on than say a giant bio ball. EDIT: Please somebody read this, I put time into it haha. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On November 29 2011 06:11 SevenShots wrote: I feel your pain. Especially that protoss has recently started to use warp prisms. Its so hard to see if there is an immortal all in coming or a prism. In either case if youre out of position youre dead. Also a BIG problem i have is, that the Protoss just sits outside my natural in front of my bunkers with a huge ass army and i HAVE to keep half my natural scvs there to not die if he decides to attack. but he just doesnt and slowly pushes ahead. :/ I don't know. I'm slowly getting frustrated with the matchup. Actually i really like to play tvp, but its so hard to see everything coming early enough. 1 medivac drop will do insane damage to his main if his army is at your front. your mules from 2 orbitals will keep you ahead even if you pull 8 scv's | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On November 29 2011 06:07 Rebs wrote: Good protoss doesn die to drops these days, I have decent multi task and the only way I manage to win is if I do a timing distraction into the main and snipe a third/second and run the fuck out and return with a third taken and a heavy macro advantage, Good tosses dont take that anymore though, they know if they defend a third past 15 mins they got my numbers, I mean ill admit part of the reason I lose late game engagements is my inability to see obs due to being forced to play on low graphics but yea theres always that 1 or 2 pesky HT that gets away and ruins everything. A couple of storms + collosi and 3-3-2 zealots rushing its a nightmare to control. Pro's can do it sure but pfft. Thats an easy sweeping generalization to make. Are you sure it isn't just the good protoss that you are fighting that aren't dying to drops? The real problem, however, is that Protoss gets around the most important aspect of defender's advantage. The most important part of defender's advantage is that your units have to travel across the map, meaning that if you and your opponent macro the same and are producing at the exact same rates, then the defender should win. In every other RTS I have ever played, if the attacker wants to have the same number of units (whether it's Age of Empires, WarCraft, or any other RTS), the only way to ensure that they keep up is by proxying structures. What that means is that you can get around this part of defender's advantage, but if you do, and it fails, your production is stranded in the worst part of the map. Terran can fly away their buildings, but that means that they're not producing units and become very vulnerable to all-ins or just plain aggression. Protoss, on the other hand, has Warpgates. Warpgates have a myriad of uses that I don't think have been completely explored yet. Protoss has to proxy a pylon, but the risk of losing a pylon compared to losing all your production is a completely different scenario. This has been discussed to death. Protoss gateway units suffer in strength due to the warp gate mechanic. Not even to mention warp gate all-ins are almost non-existent now in korean PvT where Terrans crush them indiscriminately. On November 29 2011 06:24 Ruscour wrote: And you're wrong about the lategame, MC himself always says that after 25 minutes, Terran simply wins. The power of Protoss is in the early late game where there is an upgrade advantage, Gateway units, Storm and Colossus. Once Terran has 3-3, Ghosts and Vikings, the Protoss army really doesn't have much of a chance, that's just how the matchup is designed. While the warp-in mechanic means quick forward reinforcements, the Terran army is significantly more mobile. Drop more, flank more, harass bases, etc, if you want the matchup to feel more dynamic. Protoss can't do that because the race is designed to function as a ball. MC was definitely the forefront of PvT when he said that quote. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
And if this wasn't a balance discussion, it'd be in the Strategy forum asking for help. This is very much a balance (or at least game design) discussion. And you're wrong about the lategame, MC himself always says that after 25 minutes, Terran simply wins. The power of Protoss is in the early late game where there is an upgrade advantage, Gateway units, Storm and Colossus. Once Terran has 3-3, Ghosts and Vikings, the Protoss army really doesn't have much of a chance, that's just how the matchup is designed. While the warp-in mechanic means quick forward reinforcements, the Terran army is significantly more mobile. Drop more, flank more, harass bases, etc, if you want the matchup to feel more dynamic. Protoss can't do that because the race is designed to function as a ball. | ||
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