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On November 29 2011 06:19 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:11 SevenShots wrote:
I feel your pain. Especially that protoss has recently started to use warp prisms. Its so hard to see if there is an immortal all in coming or a prism.
In either case if youre out of position youre dead.
Also a BIG problem i have is, that the Protoss just sits outside my natural in front of my bunkers with a huge ass army and i HAVE to keep half my natural scvs there to not die if he decides to attack. but he just doesnt and slowly pushes ahead. :/
I don't know. I'm slowly getting frustrated with the matchup.
Actually i really like to play tvp, but its so hard to see everything coming early enough. 1 medivac drop will do insane damage to his main if his army is at your front. your mules from 2 orbitals will keep you ahead even if you pull 8 scv's
If i go for a fe and he is putting pressure on with immortals - where do i pull medivacs from?
if i have medivacs this early on and go to drop i just die to the FF immortal push, because i dont ahve a lot of units overall.
Two immortals in combination with FF to prevent repairing does take down bunkers in an awfull small amount of time.
if i go for enough units so that i would be able to drop - i wont have the medivacs in quite a time.
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On November 29 2011 05:27 Endrew wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:58 unit wrote:
sorry, but colossi are a unit that get better with numbers, they're fairly weak at 2...all you need to do to wreck them is get a few units into position behind the P army and boom dead "lolossi"
also, sorry i dont play vs diamonds so i really wouldnt know that you guys arent capable of dealing with this stuff...all of my practice partners are high masters/gm so im used to the terrans being able to nail their emps -___- also 300apm isnt that hard to get, if you go by sc2gears at least, blizz really fucked up the ingame apm thing...that should read eap45s I believe we're talking about the current state of TvP at diamondish level here  I'm not talking about the balance in general since I know my limits.
well i cant speak for diamondish...but i believe that balance doesnt mean shit at that level -___- just get better -___-
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On November 29 2011 03:54 SeaSwift wrote:
I don't know why you're so concerned in particular with the Terran defender's advantage. If anything, Protoss have it worse. To make up for the absurdly powerful Warp Gate ability on the offense, Protoss units have to be individually weaker, especially early-mid game. This means that when the Warp Gate ability is not being used to it's full extent, Protoss is at an inherent disadvantage. To counteract this, Blizzard gave Protoss the Sentry, designed to be a defensive unit with Forcefield. But this is unreliable, can be dealt with in varies ways and forces Protoss to rely on excellent micro to succeed, especially in lower leagues.
I don't think it's a problem at higher levels, but in lower league TvP both sides seem to have very weak defender's advantage. Thankfully, in lower leagues the most common flaw (apart from poor macro) is passivity, so the issue you talk about is minimal.
lol how you joking
if you dont use warp gate ability on full extent your macro sux lol
and forcefield is unreliable that is the biggest joke i ever heard its both good for defense and offense
you just ff a bunker and scv cant repair anymore for example
guardianshield is sooo gooood vs terrans
in fact its the terran who needs to rely more on micro then the toss
all you need is just good mechanics and good ff placement
@unit
you are right and i agree 100%
diamonnd and lower have no right to complain about balance seriously
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I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss
User was warned for this post
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On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss
ez win against ez Terran
If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right
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On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right
How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO
On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss
Cut the marauders. they are useless unless you want to fight in open field.
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On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO
I assumed standard play from both P and T with Terran expanding then getting medivacs since he had MM already. Can easily get 2 medivacs by 8:30
What I should have said was make more marines n repair
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On November 29 2011 06:58 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO I assumed standard play from both P and T with Terran expanding then getting medivacs since he had MM already. Can easily get 2 medivacs by 8:30 What I should have said was make more marines n repair
You can't repair if you're being forcefielded. and no you can't have enough units + medivacs by the 8:30 minute mark if you're doing a fast expand and trying to hold off this all in. and in my experience, marines can die pretty easily to by a warp in of stalkers or good forcefield + zealot + sentry mix, immortals also 2-3 shot marines. You literally need to cut workers and get like 5-6 bunkers to hold off this type of all in and just pump hella units.
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On November 29 2011 06:58 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO I assumed standard play from both P and T with Terran expanding then getting medivacs since he had MM already. Can easily get 2 medivacs by 8:30 What I should have said was make more marines n repair
No that's just physically impossible, Terran will not have enough gas for 1 fact, 1 starport reactor, 1,2 adddon for raxes, and some upgrade like combat shield or stim. It's just impossible to get that much gas by 8:30, let alone 200 gas for medivacs.
Contrary to the general belief, Terran is quite gas extensive on 2 bases, even a good amount on 3 bases. That was why you rarely see Terran making ghosts early, even though we know ghosts are good.
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On November 29 2011 07:01 Avril_Lavigne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:58 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO I assumed standard play from both P and T with Terran expanding then getting medivacs since he had MM already. Can easily get 2 medivacs by 8:30 What I should have said was make more marines n repair You can't repair if you're being forcefielded. and no you can't have enough units + medivacs by the 8:30 minute mark if you're doing a fast expand and trying to hold off this all in. and in my experience, marines can die pretty easily to by a warp in of stalkers or good forcefield + zealot + sentry mix, immortals also 2-3 shot marines. You literally need to cut workers and get like 5-6 bunkers to hold off this type of all in and just pump hella units.
if it's an all-in then it's something you gotta scout for and yea, cut workers.
I can't imagine that FE is all that terrans can do? 1 base pressure, doing enough damage can give you an edge in the mid-game. All I'm saying is, a game is typically determined by the early engagements, if you feel you're ahead and you lose to an all-in then that's your fault not the game.
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On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss Cut the marauders. they are useless unless you want to fight in open field.
Why didn't you scout the immortal bust coming? Those units are large and slow. If a forge fast expand, can I cry if the zerg does a roach all in that didn't scout?
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With terrans complaining about the zealot and how its op, just try some BF helions in the mix and get good shots off, they wreck zealots in big battles and in smaller ones if the toss doesnt micro it back
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On November 29 2011 07:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss Cut the marauders. they are useless unless you want to fight in open field. Why didn't you scout the immortal bust coming? Those units are large and slow. If a forge fast expand, can I cry if the zerg does a roach all in that didn't scout?
I do scout it...............................
and even with 4+ bunkers they are able to bust through with good forcefields.
High Master here top 200 in the region
http://sc2ranks.com/us/285591/meFTW
anyway. TvP is definitely not my best match up just like many others who are posting in this thread. But what bugs me is the way you guys say "just get a bunker" as if the match up is basically black and white when it's reallly not.
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On November 29 2011 07:07 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 07:01 Avril_Lavigne wrote:On November 29 2011 06:58 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO I assumed standard play from both P and T with Terran expanding then getting medivacs since he had MM already. Can easily get 2 medivacs by 8:30 What I should have said was make more marines n repair You can't repair if you're being forcefielded. and no you can't have enough units + medivacs by the 8:30 minute mark if you're doing a fast expand and trying to hold off this all in. and in my experience, marines can die pretty easily to by a warp in of stalkers or good forcefield + zealot + sentry mix, immortals also 2-3 shot marines. You literally need to cut workers and get like 5-6 bunkers to hold off this type of all in and just pump hella units. if it's an all-in then it's something you gotta scout for and yea, cut workers. I can't imagine that FE is all that terrans can do? 1 base pressure, doing enough damage can give you an edge in the mid-game. All I'm saying is, a game is typically determined by the early engagements, if you feel you're ahead and you lose to an all-in then that's your fault not the game.
i've stopped doing gasless expand because 90% of my tvps are all ins. i do a 2 rax reactor first the way Polt does it, which has brought my tvp win ratio to like a 60%
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As a mid masters terran, i feel the reason TvP is so hard late game is that the lategame comp of protoss is, namely, chargelot archon. They can make every unit they need out of warp gates, and have a pure mineral AND extraordinary gas dump. Charge-Lot archon is a truly perfect unit comp, 1 zealot and 1 HT cost 150 mins 150 gas together. Chargelots 3-3 can tank a bio ball pretty well and need very little micro (charge is auto-casted) and even if one kites all the chargelots, the weakened bio ball is met with archons and newly made chargelots.. Drop harass late game is negated relatively easily with warp-ins too.
It also doesn't help that ghosts got nerfed hard and 1 emp hits about 1 archon now T.T
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On November 29 2011 06:22 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 06:07 Rebs wrote:On November 29 2011 06:01 K3Nyy wrote:On November 29 2011 05:51 spajn wrote:
Its a boring matchup, I have played nearly 2k games and i cant remember a single epic TvP game I have ever played but i have countless ZvT memories and some damn good TvT. Its just a boring MU, 2 balls meeting and whoever first gets the killer aoe effect in place slaughter the other ball and its gg.. zzzzzz Yeah I do agree from Protoss perspective that it's really boring to play PvT, but TvP is so much fun! You can do drops to snipe buildings while pushing or expanding and stuff like that. Good protoss doesn die to drops these days, I have decent multi task and the only way I manage to win is if I do a timing distraction into the main and snipe a third/second and run the fuck out and return with a third taken and a heavy macro advantage, Good tosses dont take that anymore though, they know if they defend a third past 15 mins they got my numbers, I mean ill admit part of the reason I lose late game engagements is my inability to see obs due to being forced to play on low graphics but yea theres always that 1 or 2 pesky HT that gets away and ruins everything. A couple of storms + collosi and 3-3-2 zealots rushing its a nightmare to control. Pro's can do it sure but pfft. Thats an easy sweeping generalization to make. Are you sure it isn't just the good protoss that you are fighting that aren't dying to drops?
guess im the only one who saw dreamhack, but thats besides the point ofcourse it was a sweeping generalization and it was made limited to personal experience but ask any masters toss and he will tell you half the time they lose is because "those pesky drops" just got away. Fact of the matter is I feel compelled to do damage in TvP or im behind which is a bit unfair. Tod vs Happy a great example of how hard it is to execute with korean level skill. He was so shit scared of taking on the deathball despite superior everything he lost.
. Now as toss you never feel like you "have to" do damage through harrasment do you ? But you still can, its an option. For me playing personally its not, I have to do it or im not comfortable. I dont blame the game though its something that one can learn to deal with. Im just not there yet myself and seeing better players struggle with it can be frustrating.
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On November 29 2011 07:13 Avril_Lavigne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 07:07 emc wrote:On November 29 2011 07:01 Avril_Lavigne wrote:On November 29 2011 06:58 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:54 SevenShots wrote:On November 29 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On November 29 2011 06:51 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I tried to hold off an immortal bust with 4+ bunkers with marines and marauders and scvs to repair. Forcefield + immortals = herp derp ez win for protoss ez win against ez Terran If you're not dropping you're not playing the mu right How the **** do you think you can have Medivacs + enough units to drop at the time of a immortal bust? oO I assumed standard play from both P and T with Terran expanding then getting medivacs since he had MM already. Can easily get 2 medivacs by 8:30 What I should have said was make more marines n repair You can't repair if you're being forcefielded. and no you can't have enough units + medivacs by the 8:30 minute mark if you're doing a fast expand and trying to hold off this all in. and in my experience, marines can die pretty easily to by a warp in of stalkers or good forcefield + zealot + sentry mix, immortals also 2-3 shot marines. You literally need to cut workers and get like 5-6 bunkers to hold off this type of all in and just pump hella units. if it's an all-in then it's something you gotta scout for and yea, cut workers. I can't imagine that FE is all that terrans can do? 1 base pressure, doing enough damage can give you an edge in the mid-game. All I'm saying is, a game is typically determined by the early engagements, if you feel you're ahead and you lose to an all-in then that's your fault not the game. i've stopped doing gasless expand because 90% of my tvps are all ins. i do a 2 rax reactor first the way Polt does it, which has brought my tvp win ratio to like a 60%
lol, that sounds exactly like how i stopped going 1gate fe PvT because 90% of my PvTs are some1base "pressure" ala allin
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I'm pretty sure Terran has the single biggest defenders advantage in the game.
hell you even have UPGRADES for your defensive structures.
maybe try to diversify your units instead of the same garbage MMM that all terrans do.
check out jinro's sky terran vs San zenith.
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On November 29 2011 07:53 Bodzilla wrote:
I'm pretty sure Terran has the single biggest defenders advantage in the game.
hell you even have UPGRADES for your defensive structures.
maybe try to diversify your units instead of the same garbage MMM that all terrans do.
check out jinro's sky terran vs San zenith.
Right do the dinosaur build that the player himself never uses on his stream because of how volatile it is. The point here is to win without gimicky stuff with solid builds. As for the gasless expand. I still do it and try to pump a reaper out these days quick (its not useless and only delays stim a bit) to get a really solid scout. But depends on the map ofcourse, I agree with the toss though. I get so happy when I see a 1 gate expand because I hammered down the timing with medivacs hard (DIE GREEDY PRToSs xD), but I feel alot worse when they go for a safer expand, they can pressure/harrass with.
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On November 29 2011 07:53 Bodzilla wrote:
I'm pretty sure Terran has the single biggest defenders advantage in the game.
hell you even have UPGRADES for your defensive structures.
maybe try to diversify your units instead of the same garbage MMM that all terrans do.
check out jinro's sky terran vs San zenith.
Call me crazy but I'd trade bunkers for FF any day of the week. Your bunkers are void on a 3gate immortal bust.
On the other hand, the TvP 3rax all-in on a protoss FE -IMHO- protoss has a much better chance of surviving with just zeals, sentries and a couple of stalkers for support
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EPT
