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On November 29 2011 08:52 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 08:43 MysteryHours wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. I don't understand this attitude that game balance is a luxury reserved for progamers. Obviously the game shouldn't be primarily balanced around bronze league but if you have non-trivial imbalances affecting a large percent of casual players then that's a problem that needs to be addressed. Yes, the problem is that people need to stop having games hold their hand and get achievements/victory screens all the time and just improve. If something is "balanced" at a certain level then that means it's possible for you to get to that level. So instead of wasting your time QQ'ing that you in low gold can't beat protoss death ball qq 1-a you should try to improve to that level of skill. Not putting in the time to improve and just complaining is insulting to everyone else that does. It's honestly ridiculous and sad that people still do this.
I completely agree with this. I'm not saying these imbalances even exist, I'm just saying that if they did then that's something that needs to be addressed. This is really just a response to the sentiment I originally quoted of "fuck the lower leagues"
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On November 29 2011 09:05 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 08:44 Meta wrote:
I've decided just to wait for the warhound and the battle hellion in hots and not complain until then. Just 1base or 2base allin vs protoss, because if you stay on MMM/ghost/viking you WILL lose straight-up battle vs colossus/archon/storm/zealot. If you do end up in a late game scenario like that it's best just to base trade. I agree with this. Right now, more then half the "tech tree" is useless vs Protoss after the 10 min mark. BTW, even Goody has given up on mech in TvP FFS. Battle hellions, we need you! :p
Yeah, I have my arms wide open for the battle-hellion and warhound, but you can't kill anything that can just keep teleporting all day long (Nexus Mass recall).
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On November 29 2011 09:03 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. Posts like this really piss me off. I purchased a game that cost $100 to have fun with. Not deal with broken shit. Your so called "wood" leagues are the community that keeps this game rolling. You just keep staring at the fucking GSL all day long. As much as Blizzard might want to balance it at top notch pro level, they also need to keep what you call "wood leauges" in mind as well. Have a look around you and realise the decline of Terran players outside of Korea, I feel like I play against a freaking zerg almost every game, and if it isn't a zerg it will be a toss. I don't play against Terrans anywhere near as much as what I used to. I wonder why this is? To those saying build bunkers..... what a fucking joke.
Man you got ripped off 100$  EDIT : O collector's edition I guess ?
Let me tell you a story. Once upon a time, I was having problem with PvZ, what did I do? Nothing I just kept playing accepting the fact my PvZ was terrible. Then, the protoss "domination" area of PvZ came. Did my PvZ managed to break the mighty 25% winrate then ? Nope. Everyone was owning Z left and right and I had an hard time winning a single game once in a while. Also, what did I do trying to fix the problem? Well same as always, I played ladder hoping I wouldn't face a zerg. Recently, I got tired of this shit. So I manned the fuck up and starting playing zerg agaisn't protoss friends. I wanted to understand what was giving Z problem in this matchup. So I played and played. When I was satisfied with this, I started playing PvZ again vs zerg friends. I played and tried to exploit the fuck out of what I had learned. I played and played and played. Then I came back on ladder. Results ? My PvZ is still my worst matchup (even tho my PvP is slowly but surely fighting for that spot) but it no longers hovers at 21% and is now at 47 %.
Now on to your ladder experiences... I feel like I am playing agaisnt way too many zergs. I queue up a game and OH WHOS THERE? ITS FUCKING KERRIGAN! Look again ! It's a fucking mutalisk! How man it looks like you haven't seen enough hydras today, heres 2 more ! Then I get a PvP... BUT THEN WE'RE ON TO CHAR AGAIN HELL YEAH !
Then I check sc2gears and realise that I play around 33% of every matchup. It's just your perception, it's still pretty much even.
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On November 29 2011 09:03 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. Posts like this really piss me off. I purchased a game that cost $100 to have fun with. Not deal with broken shit. Your so called "wood" leagues are the community that keeps this game rolling. You just keep staring at the fucking GSL all day long.
The only thing that's broken is your attitude, wow.
This thread isn't a discussion in any way shape or form. This is a reddit thread with a TL skin.
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On November 29 2011 09:28 SpiZe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 09:03 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. Posts like this really piss me off. I purchased a game that cost $100 to have fun with. Not deal with broken shit. Your so called "wood" leagues are the community that keeps this game rolling. You just keep staring at the fucking GSL all day long. As much as Blizzard might want to balance it at top notch pro level, they also need to keep what you call "wood leauges" in mind as well. Have a look around you and realise the decline of Terran players outside of Korea, I feel like I play against a freaking zerg almost every game, and if it isn't a zerg it will be a toss. I don't play against Terrans anywhere near as much as what I used to. I wonder why this is? To those saying build bunkers..... what a fucking joke. Man you got ripped off 100$ Let me tell you a story. Once upon a time, I was having problem with PvZ, what did I do? Nothing I just kept playing accepting the fact my PvZ was terrible. Then, the protoss "domination" area of PvZ came. Did my PvZ managed to break the mighty 25% winrate then ? Nope. Everyone was owning Z left and right and I had an hard time winning a single game once in a while. Also, what did I do trying to fix the problem? Well same as always, I played ladder hoping I wouldn't face a zerg. Recently, I got tired of this shit. So I manned the fuck up and starting playing zerg agaisn't protoss friends. I wanted to understand what was giving Z problem in this matchup. So I played and played. When I was satisfied with this, I started playing PvZ again vs zerg friends. I played and tried to exploit the fuck out of what I had learned. I played and played and played. Then I came back on ladder. Results ? My PvZ is still my worst matchup (even tho my PvP is slowly but surely fighting for that spot) but it no longers hovers at 21% and is now at 47 %. Now on to your ladder experiences... I feel like I am playing agaisnt way too many zergs. I queue up a game and OH WHOS THERE? ITS FUCKING KERRIGAN! Look again ! It's a fucking mutalisk! How man it looks like you haven't seen enough hydras today, heres 2 more ! Then I get a PvP... BUT THEN WE'RE ON TO CHAR AGAIN HELL YEAH ! Then I check sc2gears and realise that I play around 33% of every matchup. It's just your perception, it's still pretty much even.
I need to get Sc2 gears so I can prove it, but I can say right now I have been keeping track of the general ratio of what race I play since I was diamond (masters now). Out of every 20 games I will play around 8-9 zerg and protoss, and 2 terran, IF I AM LUCKY.
It is obvious that terrans are feeling en masse and have been doing so for a long while even in master league, and this frustrates me immensely because I enjoy TVT more than the other match ups. When I got this game I didn't expect to only be playing against 2 races when there were 3 races advertised. I have talked to many other players around my level and they can all attest to not quing up vs many terran, if any at all when they do there ladder sessions.
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On November 29 2011 09:32 DrowSwordsman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 09:03 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. Posts like this really piss me off. I purchased a game that cost $100 to have fun with. Not deal with broken shit. Your so called "wood" leagues are the community that keeps this game rolling. You just keep staring at the fucking GSL all day long. The only thing that's broken is your attitude, wow. This thread isn't a discussion in any way shape or form. This is a reddit thread with a TL skin.
Nah, it's not my attitude buddy. It's just some people don't like to be told things straight down the line.
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1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.)
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On November 29 2011 09:40 Qibla wrote:
1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.)
Your rewriting history bro.
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how did this thread go from tvp defender's advantage to balance in the different leagues...
oh I know why cause some bronze guy was like tvp is "imbalanced"
no
tvp is not imbalanced, I could mass workers and win in bronze league. get better and stop whining
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honestly, discussing balance when you're not playing at the highest level of competition is kind of pointless
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clearly, diamond terrans can call a matchup broken, and it must be right. blizzard, do something to fix this broken matchup supported by perfect play executed by a diamond terran. come on bro, you can't be serioues
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It's not just tvp but also PVZ(oops) you can say... i notice most base trades come with protoss being one of the players.
edit: sorry I mean PvZ...
not tvz which i think is okay :p
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On November 29 2011 09:47 Lavi wrote:
It's not just tvp but also tvz you can say... i notice most base trades come with protoss being one of the players.
T v Z is by far the most balanced MU atm. Not to mention the most exciting to watch. This is one MU where I feel like I have a 50/50 chance of winning from the early - late game. At least Blizzard got something right I guess, gotta give em' credit where it's due.
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On November 29 2011 09:43 NerZhuL wrote:
how did this thread go from tvp defender's advantage to balance in the different leagues...
oh I know why cause some bronze guy was like tvp is "imbalanced"
no
tvp is not imbalanced, I could mass workers and win in bronze league. get better and stop whining
Well there was a thread not too long ago, about skill in different leagues and what that means for the matchups.
It was general consensus that, bronze to platinum Zerg was the hardest to play, because you need good scouting, macro, and game sense to win. 1 base Terran and Protoss play is very strong verse someone new to the game.
As you move into diamond and masters, Terran was the hardest, because at that skill level, the macro mechanics of Zerg and Protoss gave a considerable advantage over the Terran. Terran also needs excellent micro to do things like, split vs banelings, kite zealots, split vs storm, split vs infestors, emp ht's and infestors, engage at different angles vs protoss deathball. You also need very good multitasking to macro, whilst fighting and microing main engagement, whilst multipronged drops, and doing your best to keep those alive.
Then as you move into GM, Protoss was considered hardest at the time, because it has the lowest skill cap. It's basically a-move. Not much micro you can do, where as Terran and Zerg have more options.
That was the general consensus of a very very large poll, and comments.
Though, yes this has moved it away from the OP, he did mention that he was diamond league. So I guess that once again backs up the findings of the earlier thread. That TvP at a diamond level, with diamond players skill abilities, is damn hard.
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On November 29 2011 09:47 Lavi wrote:
It's not just tvp but also PVZ(oops) you can say... i notice most base trades come with protoss being one of the players.
edit: sorry I mean PvZ...
not tvz which i think is okay :p
Weird, I notice more base trade with the zerg being one of the player due to their frequent counter attacks.
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On November 29 2011 09:36 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 09:32 DrowSwordsman wrote:On November 29 2011 09:03 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. Posts like this really piss me off. I purchased a game that cost $100 to have fun with. Not deal with broken shit. Your so called "wood" leagues are the community that keeps this game rolling. You just keep staring at the fucking GSL all day long. The only thing that's broken is your attitude, wow. This thread isn't a discussion in any way shape or form. This is a reddit thread with a TL skin. Nah, it's not my attitude buddy. It's just some people don't like to be told things straight down the line.
Kind of like how you don't like being called out on the fact that you probably suck at the game, rather than the game being problematic... This thread is fucking stupid.
Kawaii is wise beyond his years.
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this thread is getting disgusting and needs to be closed.
I'd rather see replays than kids arguing about pointless crap. If you can't stop an immortal bust then show us! Maybe your early engagements went poorly, maybe you got outplayed or maybe the build you are doing just plain sucks. There are a ton of factors that come into this game and people are just theory crafting with zero evidence. Just because there is a [D] doesn't mean we get to ignore the evidence.
I'd like to see a thread with a more organized OP that has several replays of high level players using different strategies and facing different ones as well. Until we see every angle we can't ever say something is imba. And there is probably a terran build that hasn't been discovered yet and will be called OP when it does.
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On November 29 2011 09:28 SpiZe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 09:03 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. Posts like this really piss me off. I purchased a game that cost $100 to have fun with. Not deal with broken shit. Your so called "wood" leagues are the community that keeps this game rolling. You just keep staring at the fucking GSL all day long. As much as Blizzard might want to balance it at top notch pro level, they also need to keep what you call "wood leauges" in mind as well. Have a look around you and realise the decline of Terran players outside of Korea, I feel like I play against a freaking zerg almost every game, and if it isn't a zerg it will be a toss. I don't play against Terrans anywhere near as much as what I used to. I wonder why this is? To those saying build bunkers..... what a fucking joke. Man you got ripped off 100$ EDIT : O collector's edition I guess ? Let me tell you a story. Once upon a time, I was having problem with PvZ, what did I do? Nothing I just kept playing accepting the fact my PvZ was terrible. Then, the protoss "domination" area of PvZ came. Did my PvZ managed to break the mighty 25% winrate then ? Nope. Everyone was owning Z left and right and I had an hard time winning a single game once in a while. Also, what did I do trying to fix the problem? Well same as always, I played ladder hoping I wouldn't face a zerg. Recently, I got tired of this shit. So I manned the fuck up and starting playing zerg agaisn't protoss friends. I wanted to understand what was giving Z problem in this matchup. So I played and played. When I was satisfied with this, I started playing PvZ again vs zerg friends. I played and tried to exploit the fuck out of what I had learned. I played and played and played. Then I came back on ladder. Results ? My PvZ is still my worst matchup (even tho my PvP is slowly but surely fighting for that spot) but it no longers hovers at 21% and is now at 47 %. Now on to your ladder experiences... I feel like I am playing agaisnt way too many zergs. I queue up a game and OH WHOS THERE? ITS FUCKING KERRIGAN! Look again ! It's a fucking mutalisk! How man it looks like you haven't seen enough hydras today, heres 2 more ! Then I get a PvP... BUT THEN WE'RE ON TO CHAR AGAIN HELL YEAH ! Then I check sc2gears and realise that I play around 33% of every matchup. It's just your perception, it's still pretty much even.
Well, not really just perception for me atm, too bad since TvT is the only matchup I happen to find piss easy :/
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TrU0L.png)
Then again I usually find TvZ pretty fun but TvP can just leave (really saddening since TvP is may favorite BW matchup (to watch)).
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On November 29 2011 08:40 Came Norrection wrote:
combat shields is good against immortal bust. I think repair and 3 bunkers plus 5 rax only 1 techlab is enough to hold it, don't need for more than 1 gas either. can easily transition but you are sacraficing tech to defend an all in, which I think is justified.
5 Barracks on two bases will beat a few Protoss all-ins, then die whenever the Protoss builds Colossi. You clearly don't understand the match-up, as this build sets you up only for a small period of time, while it leaves you extremely vulnerable in the transition from early to mid game. Any tech on the Protoss's side absolutely destroys it.
On November 29 2011 08:39 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 08:15 Avril_Lavigne wrote:On November 29 2011 08:00 KaiserJohan wrote:On November 29 2011 07:53 Bodzilla wrote:
I'm pretty sure Terran has the single biggest defenders advantage in the game.
hell you even have UPGRADES for your defensive structures.
maybe try to diversify your units instead of the same garbage MMM that all terrans do.
check out jinro's sky terran vs San zenith. Call me crazy but I'd trade bunkers for FF any day of the week. Your bunkers are void on a 3gate immortal bust. On the other hand, the TvP 3rax all-in on a protoss FE -IMHO- protoss has a much better chance of surviving with just zeals, sentries and a couple of stalkers for support I'll take that trade. I'd love to have forcefields. I can FF my ramp , I can FF your ramp w/e. I'd love to be able to block off chargelots and banelings away from my fragile bio. I'd feel so mobile with FF, I can regenerate energy, it doesn't cost additional money, it can't be broken down (it has a time limit) it doesn't have a build timer (except for generating energy but hey I should start off with 50 energy anyway to a maximum of 200 so that's 4 FF's) FF micro isn't exactly rocket science, it's about quickness and accuracy imo. although forcefields in the terran army would probably break every match up in the game....... wonder why. FF would make T OP, while it makes P a playable race. To OP: Defender's advantage shouldn't be talked about without a replay. PvT equal early game, heavily in Terran favor after stim, back to balanced/P's favor once ranged colossi numbers are at 3+, back to normal/T favored once vikings are out. No question about it if you want to talk about advantage, P needs 3rd base before T does, blah blah blah, need to see situationally what you're talking about because of too much variance. Also, you don't want to trade bunkers for FF. You're going to be able to afford only marines and sentries, and both of those units are shit vs Gateway units.
First off this whole trading units reminds me of 4th grade with all the "I'll trade you my Charizard for your Blastoise" nonsense, which is stupid and doesn't belong on the TL forums (though Pokemon are the shit).
Secondly, I think that we can discuss a topic as broad as defender's advantage without a replay. Everybody knows exactly what we're talking about, it's Warpgates and the vast array of usage that they have, namely, their ability to be offensive wrecking machines in the early and midgames. And TvP/PvT is a lot less black and white as you seem to make it. There is no "well at this point T is OP, then at this point it's balanced, and then it's OP again for T." That doesn't make any sense. Good forcefield control can beat large stim pushes if they have no medivac support. In theory, the situation you're playing out could mean that at a certain point, Terran can hit timing windows, or Protoss can hit timing windows, or at a certain point both are fairly well defended and able to expand. But you're looking at the match-up in a stupid light that doesn't make any sense (as are a lot of people who play both Terran and Protoss).
On November 29 2011 08:52 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 08:43 MysteryHours wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. I don't understand this attitude that game balance is a luxury reserved for progamers. Obviously the game shouldn't be primarily balanced around bronze league but if you have non-trivial imbalances affecting a large percent of casual players then that's a problem that needs to be addressed. Yes, the problem is that people need to stop having games hold their hand and get achievements/victory screens all the time and just improve. If something is "balanced" at a certain level then that means it's possible for you to get to that level. So instead of wasting your time QQ'ing that you in low gold can't beat protoss death ball qq 1-a you should try to improve to that level of skill. Not putting in the time to improve and just complaining is insulting to everyone else that does. It's honestly ridiculous and sad that people still do this.
The community always does this, where they lose games to something, and then immediately say "this is OP, that is OP, and so clearly, this game is OP." I think that Warpgates as a game mechanic are bad--regardless of balance, I think that removing a key aspect of defender's advantage is not good for a competitive game. That's not to say that you cannot have innovative ideas in your games (just look at Zerg), I just think that from a game-makers perspective, Warpgates are a bad idea.
I agree that people should stop complaining about builds, because stupid nerfs ruin builds; the example I always think of is Reapers or Thors. If you watch IdrA's games against MorroW, both of them played horribly, so who knows if Nitro Packs would still be "OP." And ThorZaIN's mech style TvP was hardly explored before Blizzard nerfed it.
Personally, I think that discussing the Warpgate mechanic and how it affects Defender's Advantage is an interesting point of discussion, but sadly since this thread has devolved (partly to the fault of a poorly phrased OP) it really should just be closed.
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On November 29 2011 09:28 SpiZe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 09:03 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. Posts like this really piss me off. I purchased a game that cost $100 to have fun with. Not deal with broken shit. Your so called "wood" leagues are the community that keeps this game rolling. You just keep staring at the fucking GSL all day long. As much as Blizzard might want to balance it at top notch pro level, they also need to keep what you call "wood leauges" in mind as well. Have a look around you and realise the decline of Terran players outside of Korea, I feel like I play against a freaking zerg almost every game, and if it isn't a zerg it will be a toss. I don't play against Terrans anywhere near as much as what I used to. I wonder why this is? To those saying build bunkers..... what a fucking joke. Man you got ripped off 100$ EDIT : O collector's edition I guess ? Let me tell you a story. Once upon a time, I was having problem with PvZ, what did I do? Nothing I just kept playing accepting the fact my PvZ was terrible. Then, the protoss "domination" area of PvZ came. Did my PvZ managed to break the mighty 25% winrate then ? Nope. Everyone was owning Z left and right and I had an hard time winning a single game once in a while. Also, what did I do trying to fix the problem? Well same as always, I played ladder hoping I wouldn't face a zerg. Recently, I got tired of this shit. So I manned the fuck up and starting playing zerg agaisn't protoss friends. I wanted to understand what was giving Z problem in this matchup. So I played and played. When I was satisfied with this, I started playing PvZ again vs zerg friends. I played and tried to exploit the fuck out of what I had learned. I played and played and played. Then I came back on ladder. Results ? My PvZ is still my worst matchup (even tho my PvP is slowly but surely fighting for that spot) but it no longers hovers at 21% and is now at 47 %. Now on to your ladder experiences... I feel like I am playing agaisnt way too many zergs. I queue up a game and OH WHOS THERE? ITS FUCKING KERRIGAN! Look again ! It's a fucking mutalisk! How man it looks like you haven't seen enough hydras today, heres 2 more ! Then I get a PvP... BUT THEN WE'RE ON TO CHAR AGAIN HELL YEAH ! Then I check sc2gears and realise that I play around 33% of every matchup. It's just your perception, it's still pretty much even.
My MU's on sc2 gears aren't close to even.
TvT 26% (81 games)
TvP 32.5% (101 games)
TvZ 41.2% (128 games)
Obviously i play less terrans. This is with 310 games in my database, seems like a large enough sample
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EPT
