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This thread is just one big balance whine.. I really can't believe it was left open.
Let's see, I'm a diamond Terran myself and I have about an 80% win rate in TvP. Is this because Terran is in-fact imbalanced? No, it's because it's my best match-up. I lose all the time against zerg. Have something like a 40% win rate. Is the match-up imbalanced? No, I'm just bad at it. You have to get off this "I'm losing a lot so there just has to be something imbalanced" train of thought. You will never improve if you just take to the forums trying to "discuss" why you think your worst match-up is broken and imbalanced towards the other guy.
Anyways:
Since you specifically said "You have to keep making marauders" and you didn't provide a replay I'm just going to assume you are making too many. If someone does an immortal bust and you have too many marauders/not enough marines you WILL lose. Marauders aren't very good at killing immortals, if you couldn't tell.
If you are losing your whole army to storm/collos you are doing something wrong. Ghosts are a pretty good counter to ht. Most people on the diamond level don't even spread their units out so 2/3 EMPs will easily take out all the HT. If you don't have vikings to deal with collos you need to go back to TvP 101. It's all about army compositions, you can't just expect to stim once, a-move, and win.
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Honestly, the matchup seems to be relatively balanced at the higher level.
Even if it wasn't, the latest patch was very recent and people have not adjusted.
And TvP still has some room for exploration. For example, the person that mentioned having ravens as a late game gas dump for PDDs seems to have the right idea. Wouldn't mind seeing some more nukes, they can actually be relatively effective. Cheap in the lategame (you can spare the gas) and you won't see that huge wave of gateway reinforcements if the gates are unpowered (or maybe dead). Before anyone says "you don't play terran, nukes and ravens suck" I'm not saying they're going to revolutionize anything, but these are not fully explored and could have some potential and sway any tiny imbalances in Ps favor back to terran or just 50/50. Also, I have seen some players such as 4kWarden come up with non-standard gas-heavy builds in TvP and have a lot of success.
The point is, it's way too early to determine if there's a serious problem, and honestly, there doesn't even seem to be that much of a problem.
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On November 29 2011 11:05 Arkless wrote:
To all those saying buildings like bunkers and turrets are apart Of a defenders advantage you are so so very wrong. Defenders advantage refers to the act of your opponent having to walk there units across map. Which Protoss does not have to. I have agreed with the op for a long time personally. Warp in needs to go or have a Radius from the nexus where ur pylon has to be within a certin range. All you Protoss player that are saying as I mentioned above, aren't trying to contribute, they just want to qq.
Say what? Distance from your production facilities is one of a defender's advantages, but it is far from the only one. The high cost-efficiency of static defenses is certainly another of the defender's advantages, and it is pretty absurd to suggest otherwise.
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Northern Ireland117 Posts
Omg this thread is very de-railed, and everyone posting against the OP, is so hung up on the 'immortal bust' they have completely missed what this thread was about.
Consider this, a terran moves out with their first 2 initial drop ships since its probably the safest move out timming in TvP, you see they are teching to collosus you _cant_ attack in their choke or yoiu just loose to collosus you try and drop a bit but do minimal or no damage, so you pull back and take your 3rd macro more and hold the middle of the map, you try to get more dropships and start viking production you see the protoss moving out with a considerable army.
Its entirely easy to be pressed up against your choke and unable to move with collosus abusing their range ans splash vs you along with protoss getting instantly proxied reinforcements for free. Along with upgrade and macro advantages there is very little a terran can do in situations like these. you choose to fight or do anything to kill the colossus.
There is very little a terran can do to defend in mid game within their base terran _HAVE_ to engage a protoss army in the middle of the map to get a good engagement to defeat the army. Please stop treating this thread as a balance whine its nothing of the sort! If you still think its a balance whine your really missing the points put across and how the game works.
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People below the GSL level should never complain about balance.
There are thousands of terran players who can beat the protosses that you're being matched up against . . . so what's the point in whining about balance? If you simply improve your play, independent of any patches or whatever, you can beat the tosses that you're losing against.
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the best defense is a good offense.
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On November 29 2011 12:02 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 09:40 Qibla wrote:
1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.) Well, Blizzard did come to the rescue for Protoss. It wasn't a "New Build" that changed the MU, Blizzard did. Granted an adjustment was needed but it's entirely possible they went too far.
What was Blizzards adjustment? All I remember is them saving toss a couple minerals in upgrades, and reducing the emp radius slightly. Protoss have however been using warp prism harass all of a sudden, which has worked brilliantly, allowing the toss to expand more as the terran needs to stay turtled until they can get proper defense.
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On November 29 2011 12:33 redbrain wrote:
Omg this thread is very de-railed, and everyone posting against the OP, is so hung up on the 'immortal bust' they have completely missed what this thread was about.
Consider this, a terran moves out with their first 2 initial drop ships since its probably the safest move out timming in TvP, you see they are teching to collosus you _cant_ attack in their choke or yoiu just loose to collosus you try and drop a bit but do minimal or no damage, so you pull back and take your 3rd macro more and hold the middle of the map, you try to get more dropships and start viking production you see the protoss moving out with a considerable army.
Its entirely easy to be pressed up against your choke and unable to move with collosus abusing their range ans splash vs you along with protoss getting instantly proxied reinforcements for free. Along with upgrade and macro advantages there is very little a terran can do in situations like these. you choose to fight or do anything to kill the colossus.
There is very little a terran can do to defend in mid game within their base terran _HAVE_ to engage a protoss army in the middle of the map to get a good engagement to defeat the army. Please stop treating this thread as a balance whine its nothing of the sort! If you still think its a balance whine your really missing the points put across and how the game works.
It's a good observation, the Terran infantry army is at it's strongest in an open field where it cannot be pinned down to an engagement against its will, where it can easily spread out to avoid splash damage and where it can abuse its kiting abilities to the fullest.
So meet the Protoss in the open on your own terms. I'm not sure what your point is: the inverse is of course true for the Protoss, the best places to fight are at your own ramp or at your opponent's, anywhere in between is asking for a crushing defeat or for a deadly backstab drop.
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On November 29 2011 10:46 Qibla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 10:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Obviously TvP is not broken in Protoss's favor, or else most of the best players in the entire world would not be Terran. Flawed logic. Race does not determine skill. I'm sure if MVP picked protoss or zerg. He'd still be best player in the world.
I never said that race determines skill, but it's quite easy to make your argument when you know you never have to actually support it. The top players aren't going to be race-switching any time soon.
And I'm not the one who said that a match-up is broken. I merely pointed out that if what the OP said were true (that Terran was unplayable because TvP is so one-sided towards Protoss), we would see the top pro-gamers obviously choosing the *better* race (Protoss). When money is at stake, you play to win. And we simply don't see all the best players in the world playing Protoss and raping Terrans in Code S. There's a reason why we (tongue in cheek) refer to it as Code T and GomTvT.
If it were impossible for Terran to beat Protoss (which is what the OP is saying), you would see Protoss dominating at the highest levels, and you've almost never seen that in the history of SC2 (except for MC's solo GSL runs and a few other blips on the radar), let alone recently. What you instead have been seeing is a majority of Terrans at the top (peppered with some Zerg success, a la Nestea), and across the leagues you see that the match-ups are balanced, not that TvP is impossible for Terran.
And again, I point out that the OP has no data whatsoever backing up his balance whine, so this thread should be closed  Basically, this is starting a flame war. It starts with people whining about how Terrans have it tough against Protoss (lol) and then others come and fire back about how that's ridiculous. Nothing constructive or new can really come out of this thread.
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On November 29 2011 13:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 10:46 Qibla wrote:On November 29 2011 10:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Obviously TvP is not broken in Protoss's favor, or else most of the best players in the entire world would not be Terran. Flawed logic. Race does not determine skill. I'm sure if MVP picked protoss or zerg. He'd still be best player in the world. I never said that race determines skill, but it's quite easy to make your argument when you know you never have to actually support it. The top players aren't going to be race-switching any time soon.
TLO just switched to Zerg. Morrow also switched. They are still pro, but haven't performed any better or worse after their switch, because that's what their skill level. Argument supported 
If it were impossible for Terran to beat Protoss (which is what the OP is saying), you would see Protoss dominating at the highest levels, and you've almost never seen that in the history of SC2 (except for MC's solo GSL runs and a few other blips on the radar), let alone recently. What you instead have been seeing is a majority of Terrans at the top (peppered with some Zerg success, a la Nestea), and across the leagues you see that the match-ups are balanced, not that TvP is impossible for Terran.
To an extent what he is saying is true, though it only applies to a Diamond level player. The pro's have much better multitasking and mechanics, so are able to capitalize on the advantages Terran has as a race. A Diamond level player doesn't have these skills, but an equivalent skill level Protoss player has the skills to be able to abuse Protoss' strengths.
Basically Protoss is easier to play, but the skill cap is lower, so a bad Protoss player should beat a bad Terran player, and a pro Terran player should beat a pro Protoss player.
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Im a T player i'm horrible at TvP but i realise that im not a pro, i cant expect to use the build a pro does and be able to execute it perfectly and then complain when i fail. I believe 100% that apart from the emp nerf and the immortal range change that the last few patches have been a placebo for protoss. The changes have honestly just been a "protoss how bout u fucking upgrade your units and then see them roll shit" thrown in their face. Also Oz in my opinion is THE best protoss in the world (followed closely by hero because of his insane multitasking). Oz has shown the true strength of not just quick tech switch but using both collosus and HT at the same time perfectly.
Then theres the silly people who say the whole "upgrade cost change makes u have 1 more unit" its not the actual cost going back into the army that was the change it was the ability to get it earlier and even that doesn't make a big difference, as i said before its just a placebo to make protoss do it. I also don't think HT should be able to be sniped but thats a personal thing.
What i wanna see from terran is a banshee late game gas dump(I wanna start trying this out too cuz im pathetic at TvP). Especially since most and pretty much all terrans should, be getting air attack upgrades already for viking. Banshees for pylon harrass to slow their remax capability, even for main battles, scan and kill obs quickly with viking (easier said then done).
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On November 29 2011 12:39 Qibla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 12:02 mlspmatt wrote:On November 29 2011 09:40 Qibla wrote:
1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.) Well, Blizzard did come to the rescue for Protoss. It wasn't a "New Build" that changed the MU, Blizzard did. Granted an adjustment was needed but it's entirely possible they went too far. What was Blizzards adjustment? All I remember is them saving toss a couple minerals in upgrades, and reducing the emp radius slightly. Protoss have however been using warp prism harass all of a sudden, which has worked brilliantly, allowing the toss to expand more as the terran needs to stay turtled until they can get proper defense.
Someone trusts the Day9 Daily a bit too much. Warpprism usage is not yet common at very high levels (in PvT at least), it's still quite stylistic. Blizzard buffs did help though. The new deadly protoss style is just double forge turtle, nothing else, combined with new Protoss favored maps like Daybreak and Calm before the Storm.
For example, the 1 rax FE into ghost timing is basically killed at this point, for all these reasons. As Protoss, what threatens you the most outside of all ins are drops. Defend these, and you're in a very good position for the late game with your faster upgrades (faster cause of chrono, not the buff, which did not much actually).
PvT balance on ladder should not have changed that much, it's the new maps at the GSL that are tipping the balance towards Protoss more than anything else.
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I play both races, since the 1/1/1 is somewhat taken into account with some nerfs/buffs here and there, I find that Protoss has heaps of strategic attacks/all ins, I dont mind playing PvT but i hate TvP. I like the mechanics of P, warp ins, archons/dts/hts, force fields and zealots., not only the metagame has changed but the nerfs and buffs to each race has made this matchup pretty crazy. ranging form little things like medivac speed (stalkers can chase them down!) to amulet nerf.
i guess its all adding up to change the matchup, but we will evolve once again.
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Hmm protoss don't really have much defender advantage, unless you are talking up hiding behind a choke. if Terran has a bigger army at any point of time, they can drop and do multi prong harrass. Protoss units are designed to be equally strong in both offense and defense due to warp in. But sentry do help in defending a choke against Terran. But at any point of time Protoss can't really cut units and tech without knowing terran army size. Terran can really turtle up behind bunkers. 1 base play with heavy teching 111 and holding your ramp with 1 bunker is a very good example. Bunkers and repairs are huge defender advantage. Collosus poking at bunker can be easily stop by Vikings. You could afford to send 1 or 2 dropships while holding with bunker. I don't see why you say protoss has good defender advantage. While it might be true, I just don't see how Terran does not have it. I always thought they have the BEST defender advantage. Turrets are pretty cheap too.
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On November 29 2011 15:08 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 12:39 Qibla wrote:On November 29 2011 12:02 mlspmatt wrote:On November 29 2011 09:40 Qibla wrote:
1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.) Well, Blizzard did come to the rescue for Protoss. It wasn't a "New Build" that changed the MU, Blizzard did. Granted an adjustment was needed but it's entirely possible they went too far. What was Blizzards adjustment? All I remember is them saving toss a couple minerals in upgrades, and reducing the emp radius slightly. Protoss have however been using warp prism harass all of a sudden, which has worked brilliantly, allowing the toss to expand more as the terran needs to stay turtled until they can get proper defense. Someone trusts the Day9 Daily a bit too much. Warpprism usage is not yet common at very high levels (in PvT at least), it's still quite stylistic. Blizzard buffs did help though. The new deadly protoss style is just double forge turtle, nothing else, combined with new Protoss favored maps like Daybreak and Calm before the Storm. For example, the 1 rax FE into ghost timing is basically killed at this point, for all these reasons. As Protoss, what threatens you the most outside of all ins are drops. Defend these, and you're in a very good position for the late game with your faster upgrades (faster cause of chrono, not the buff, which did not much actually). PvT balance on ladder should not have changed that much, it's the new maps at the GSL that are tipping the balance towards Protoss more than anything else.
Haven't watched the daily in months tbh. Just what I've noticed form play on ladder, that WP usage is very common now, at least in the games I've played.
And yes, that was my point. Protoss buff, was very minor, basically non existent. It was a change in build that has changed the state of TvP. Not a buff, or nerf. Maps notwithstanding because I was talking about ladder all along.
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Versus the immortal push, he's eitehr taking a very very late nexus, or not getting one at all. It's an all in. You CAN NOT DEFEND your natural and win. You absolutely have to go up into your main and defend your ramp. Lift off your nat and fly it to a island or just keep it in your base. While defending ramp, then you can use drops to harass him. He shouldn't have enough units to cover your ramp and stop the drops.
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both races need better defender advantage late game, so one mistake don't instantly gg you
early and mid game seems fine
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is this thread a troll? Terrans have the best defensive capacity of all the races.. think about how zerg feels about these warp gate all-ins and sentry drops..
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Right now, Terrans are not utilizing Planetary Fortresses and Bunkers (which can be salvaged btw) as much as they should when the game goes very late.
Where Protoss has the advantage of being able to reinforce their army much faster, Terrans have the ability to heavily fortify a key position. This dynamic I think is still evolving and we'll see more of it soon.
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On November 29 2011 12:02 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 09:40 Qibla wrote:
1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.) Well, Blizzard did come to the rescue for Protoss. It wasn't a "New Build" that changed the MU, Blizzard did. Granted an adjustment was needed but it's entirely possible they went too far.
Explain to me how a two minor changes to upgrade costs and EMP radius broke the match-up?
The upgrade buffs did absolutely nothing to change Protoss timing attacks since the timings of the upgrades remained exactly the same. The ONLY thing which changed is that now Protoss can get an extra zealot + sentry or two on top of their upgrades - so now double forge gateway styles are mildly safer to pull off.
The EMP radius, at least in my own experience, has made absolutely no difference at all. The EMP now covers the same area as storm and, given the fact that Terrans were already building 8+ ghosts and just blanketing the Protoss army with EMPs, this has made absolutely no tangible difference whatsoever.
Where Protoss has the advantage of being able to reinforce their army much faster, Terrans have the ability to heavily fortify a key position. This dynamic I think is still evolving and we'll see more of it soon.
But there's more to it than that. Warp-ins are balanced by the fact that gateway units are the least cost-effective tier 1-1.5 units in the game. They need to be backed up by splash damage, which cannot be instantly reinforced, to stand a chance against MMM
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EPT
