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On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are.......
Dude, I like you and all, and your achievements as a player is impressive, but you'd probably be much better of with a different mindset than that. Work with what you have available yourself, theres a lot of "joke mechanics" in all races.
Not to mention an average user would seriously risk getting banned posting shit like that. And even if the post it isnt bannable alone, you're hardly making TL a better place where calm and constructive discussions can take place by encouraging such "quality posts".
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On November 29 2011 20:55 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are....... Dude, I like you and all, and your achievements as a player is impressive, but you'd probably be much better of with a different mindset than that. Work with what you have available yourself, theres a lot of "joke mechanics" in all races. Not to mention an average user would seriously risk getting banned posting shit like that. And even if the post it isnt bannable alone, you're hardly making TL a better place where calm and constructive discussions can take place by encouraging such "quality posts".
He is just saying what he thinks, and he is the better player here so you should: read, learn and shut up.
I dont know why that post is "baneable" nor why it "hardly making TL better", there you have a progamers opinion about current TvP state, its great to read posts like that.
And yes, im terran, i feel just like jinro, also i saw jinro streaming a LOT and i feel like him when he get destroyed lategame.
Also, its fairly true that terran is more powerfull at midgame, but i dont want to play all my game "allin" style anymore, i prefer to lose and try to win a macro long game. Im also trying to improve my multitasking and macro mechanics to do what MVP does, but trust me, its not EASY.
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Vatican City State334 Posts
I'm just not sure what to do TvP anymore, it's so much harder compared to what it was before the recent Protoss buffs. If you look at the statistics, Terran win rates are declining rapidly... almost down to as low as 50% in some regions.
User was warned for this post
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On November 29 2011 21:10 MurdeR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 20:55 Kreb wrote:On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are....... Dude, I like you and all, and your achievements as a player is impressive, but you'd probably be much better of with a different mindset than that. Work with what you have available yourself, theres a lot of "joke mechanics" in all races. Not to mention an average user would seriously risk getting banned posting shit like that. And even if the post it isnt bannable alone, you're hardly making TL a better place where calm and constructive discussions can take place by encouraging such "quality posts". He is just saying what he thinks, and he is the better player here so you should: read, learn and shut up. I dont know why that post is "baneable" nor why it "hardly making TL better", there you have a progamers opinion about current TvP state, its great to read posts like that. And yes, im terran, i feel just like jinro, also i saw jinro streaming a LOT and i feel like him when he get destroyed lategame. Also, its fairly true that terran is more powerfull at midgame, but i dont want to play all my game "allin" style anymore, i prefer to lose and try to win a macro long game. Im also trying to improve my multitasking and macro mechanics to do what MVP does, but trust me, its not EASY.
-Go into random LR thread of choice after you've watched a late game PvT go in the favor of a P.
-Post "late game protoss is such a joke"
I'll give you about 50/50 chance of getting straight up banned or just receive a warning. Repeat the above and you WILL be banned. I encourage you to try if you don't believe me.
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On November 29 2011 21:16 AnalThermometer wrote:
I'm just not sure what to do TvP anymore, it's so much harder compared to what it was before the recent Protoss buffs. If you look at the statistics, Terran win rates are declining rapidly... almost down to as low as 50% in some regions.
Oh we are all sorry, lets get it up to 59% again, that serems more balanced
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On November 29 2011 22:12 Dusen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 21:16 AnalThermometer wrote:
I'm just not sure what to do TvP anymore, it's so much harder compared to what it was before the recent Protoss buffs. If you look at the statistics, Terran win rates are declining rapidly... almost down to as low as 50% in some regions. Oh we are all sorry, lets get it up to 59% again, that serems more balanced
That rate strikes me as being in large part due to the prevalence of the marine tank banshee build that seemed unstoppable for a few months. As it has been noted many times over in this thread, there are periods in the game where either race has a large advantage over the other which can lead to one side getting dominated.
My idea is to ask the question "why was everybody so eager to do a marine tank banshee push?" Obviously because it had a really high success rate, but I figure it is also because playing out a long game TvP is really difficult, and more volatile than the other match ups. I know personally I'd rather do a one base all-in most of the time rather than play a long game against protoss because I find the matchup to be boring and frustrating to play.
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So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work!
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On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are.......
Early game is pretty balanced. Stim+marines and you are safe. CC first is posible as Nexus 1rst. 1 gate FE as 2 rax FE. Both can go 2 gax/3gate expo into press. And both have all ins from 1 base, being 1-1-1 the most efficient of all.
Midgame terran is stronger. P may have 5/6 gates timmings or 2 collosi timming, but once 2 orbitals kick in + the huge raiding options, good terrans usually get a eco edge. Also T have nice timmings too, ghost, mmm, 2 base polt, but P do not have those big raiding options to get ahead AND go for the 3rd. I agree that once the P eco allows collosy/templar+storm switch and 3/3 chargelots, the game is in P favor. But allow that is a T mistake, considering the huge raiding options + mule edge, both in midgame.
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On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work!
That's not at all what I said. I said the matchup is frustrating because it is so volatile throughout the game, and that might be a big contributing reason that people were so keen on doing their 1-1-1, not that it is imbalanced. It just isn't interesting to play or watch in my opinion. It is just frustrating.
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On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work!
Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic......
If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again.......
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
Current T v P is heavily P favoured in the high-end scene. Bound to happen once protoss realised up-zealots were not bad against a heavy marauder based army. (if the terran goes too marine centred, AOE is going to turn it into bloody goo anyway).
As the maps got larger, the chance of you doing macro play as a toss increases, while warp-gate technology = early game Protoss all-ins/timing attacks is the same on ANY map regardless of distance.
Warp gates going to need a fix one day in the professional scene
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Personally, TvP is by far my best MU. I have been having much success with banshee play. I would start off using either Yoshi's Build or Synystyr's Build. These builds are great by themselves and teach you how to use banshees in the MU. Through personal preference I now use my own hybrid build with a midgame of 2 rax (1 reactor, 1 tech) and 3 tech-starports off of 2 base. I attack ~14-15 min with a bunch of 1-1 infantry, ~8-10 banshees with more en route, 2 ravens, and sometimes a thor (if I opened hellion drop) while taking my third and dropping 3 more rax and ghost academy.
The banshee provides such awesome firepower, mobility, checkmate positions and en masse the protoss is forced to change not only his unit mix but also his philosophy on the matchup.
Brother Terrans, I urge you to experiment with mass banshee play. I recommend starting with one of the 2 linked builds above until you get the philosophy down. After that, experiment with various unit mixes (I prefer a mix of bio, you could use mech, or straight air).
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On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again.......
Didnt Terrans need 1 year to understand that a unit that can remove ~50% of a units hp instandly is actually pretty good?
I fear the day that terrans actually start to use mech units (not pure mech) and banshees...
Anyways I think we should at least wait a bit more til we complain, its also a metagame thing right now.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On November 29 2011 22:44 jrdn wrote:Personally, TvP is by far my best MU. I have been having much success with banshee play. I would start off using either Yoshi's Build or Synystyr's Build. These builds are great by themselves and teach you how to use banshees in the MU. Through personal preference I now use my own hybrid build with a midgame of 2 rax (1 reactor, 1 tech) and 3 tech-starports off of 2 base. I attack ~14-15 min with a bunch of 1-1 infantry, ~8-10 banshees with more en route, 2 ravens, and sometimes a thor (if I opened hellion drop) while taking my third and dropping 3 more rax and ghost academy. The banshee provides such awesome firepower, mobility, checkmate positions and en masse the protoss is forced to change not only his unit mix but also his philosophy on the matchup. Brother Terrans, I urge you to experiment with mass banshee play. I recommend starting with one of the 2 linked builds above until you get the philosophy down. After that, experiment with various unit mixes (I prefer a mix of bio, you could use mech, or straight air). To quote a BW pro, when Moletrap/others showed  Leta SC2, Leta went "0___________0 Banshees are soooooooooooooo good!!!!!!!!"
 yep, abuse banshees+ravens to counter stalker anti-air, or thor armor timings with SCV repairs. Both are combinations which can be totally annoying for Toss' to deal with
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On November 29 2011 22:50 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... Didnt Terrans need 1 year to understand that a unit that can remove ~50% of a units hp instandly is actually pretty good? I fear the day that terrans actually start to use mech units (not pure mech) and banshees... Anyways I think we should at least wait a bit more til we complain, its also a metagame thing right now.
No they didnt? And dont fear mech because its beyond horrible and after thorzain used thors to win 2 games it took blizzard 1 week to nerf thors into oblivion so its obvious they hate to see anything but bio in TvP and will make sure it doesnt happen.
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On November 29 2011 18:52 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 17:52 Tyrant0 wrote:On November 29 2011 17:42 50bani wrote:
Everybody agrees that TvP is not a well balanced matchup. Even if the numbers are close, the way the game plays, there is a huge advantage for Terran at one time and for Protoss at another. People are having trouble because they are not abusing their edges well enough.
As for OP, I encourage you to throw 20 games of vT and vZ. Your mmr is so fucked up that you are meeting Protosses too good for you. Otherwise get practice partners and learn with them, of course if you can get equal skill level opponents that is. In a way, you are as imbalanced as the matchup! Who is agreeing? A while ago it was extremely balanced. It was only when Korean Terrans started EMP'ing way better that Protoss fell behind, and now Protoss cracked a new build to keep up, through upgrades. The meta game for PvT has shifted drastically the last 6-8 months with the advent of each new build. Theres no way you can blanket the entire match-up with such a generalization that it's not a balanced match up when the 'perceived balance' fluctuates so much. Ultimately, skill level has dictated the match-up, and has given plenty of room for both Terrans and Protoss to win through innovation, sheer mechanics, and simply being better- is a better blanket statement, IMO. + Show Spoiler +I wouldn't give Protoss all the credit of "Finding a new build" that changed the match up drastically. It was Blizzard who changed it with the constant Protoss Buffs and constant Terran nerfs. If people can't see this MU is disgustingly broken right now, this SC2 community is much more biased against Terran then what I originally thought.
I don't care what people think is balanced at that high prestige professional level of SC2. When I play a game where I clearly out macro my opponent, money is low, I stutter step, get at least mediocre emps off I expect to get much better results against a Toss who is floating at least 500 - 700 minerals that just 1 A's me.
Yeah, sure Terran will find a build. But I'm kinda worried right now, we have our top level Terrans playing 30+ games p/day and studying it. Yet, still nothing new that is effective.
All I can say for fellow Terrans is you can either;
1. Learn variations of the 1-1-1 and perfect those builds down to a T. Don't let the game get past 15 minutes.
2. Keep trying to work on that perfect micro, but be prepared to lose a shitload of games even if it seems like you are completely out playing your Protoss opponent.
People might accuse me of "oh you have a bad attitude herpa derpa." That's great, you keep thinking that. But I like to at least have a snowballs chance of winning in the late game against a Protoss.
And in reply to Kawaiirice (I love your streams bro and have learned HEAPS), but I find it offensive when I have my hands racing across the keyboard just to try and keep up with a Protoss build that my 6 year old brother can do.
I'm out and done with this thread, all of you Tosses can keep coming in trying to back up you pathetic Chargelot/Archon composition saying it's not OP and takes skill to utilise. + Show Spoiler +Peace, Your best friend ZorBa.G xoxoxox
On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again.......
You lied, Zorba! You lied!
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On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again.......
We(protoss) at least tried to find ways, and did find some before the patch.
You just cry, the second you have a challenge infront of you
Suck it up!
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Mech works fine against toss. problem is it leaves you to vulnerable for such a long time early in the game. The other downside is it is vulnerable to tech switching so if you massacre their 1st army of colosis stalkers and sentries, their next instant wave of 13 speed zealots with immortals will destroy your tank thor mix. You constantly have to have a very accurate amount of each unit (tanks, thors or hellions depending on what the toss has for each engagement) rather than just have mostly marauders, some marines, vikings and ghosts.
Same sort of issue mech has against zerg late game. This is just my opinion though based on my own play. Master Terran EU
*This post has nothing to do with balance just game play based on my experience
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On November 29 2011 23:05 Dusen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... We(protoss) at least tried to find ways, and did find some before the patch. You just cry, the second you have a challenge infront of you Suck it up!
Sure you did 
Such as in this post, this post and this post.
I predict you a long and illustrious career as a poster on TL.
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EPT
