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On November 30 2011 00:03 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 23:24 -y0shi- wrote:On November 29 2011 23:02 secretary bird wrote:On November 29 2011 22:50 -y0shi- wrote:On November 29 2011 22:38 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 29 2011 22:33 Dusen wrote:
So toss learn to deal with the 111, and now the matchup is imbalanced, cause it isn't a free win?
Ok so what buff is it, that have changed the matchup??
Immortal +1 range = Really?? I dont think so
Upgrades buff= double forge is just something terran need to deal with, just like everything else new that comes up
You guys just need to go to work! Hahahaha, A Protoss telling Terrans to work. How ironic...... If by chance (I highly doubt it) Terrans find something effective against late game toss, Protoss will just call big daddy Blizzard to step in again....... Didnt Terrans need 1 year to understand that a unit that can remove ~50% of a units hp instandly is actually pretty good? I fear the day that terrans actually start to use mech units (not pure mech) and banshees... Anyways I think we should at least wait a bit more til we complain, its also a metagame thing right now. No they didnt? How come that 1 year after the game gets released every1 started going mass ghosts? You know, terrans "back then" claimed ghosts are way to expensive and useless... Terrans never started using all off their units because they did fine with mmm, then they started using ghosts and killed every protoss. So Id at least wait a bit, terran has a lot of unused potential in ravens/tanks/banshees IMO. Maybe tvp is broken, idk, but after t dominating for so long and being so lazy with coming up with new stuff I think we should at least wait a bit before grabbing the pitchforks. Did you even play for a full year? Ghosts weren't massable prior to their change in cost, as one could not sustain ghost and viking production at the same time. I can live with Terran being the underdog in the matchup for a while, 1-1-1 was too easy anyways. We're just back to the old stupid ass flaw of terran being unable to keep up in the late game. It appears as if non-terrans think the race has much more potential, as we rarely see techswitches to mech or air yet, but I think people underestimate the limitations of having 3 upgrade lines (two of which are placed on a tier 3 building with a gascost, thus eliminating the possibility of dual armories.) Terran also suffers from every high tech unit being countered by feedbacks, hell, I think 9/10 terrans would prefer thors completely without energy and strike cannons. I welcome our new protoss overlords, as I too have switched away from terran now.
Not trying to start a fight here but dont most terrans float a ton of gas at some point because there is no "outlet" like the ht? Because then the ghost change is more of a nerf then a buff, isnt it?
IIRC ghosts were mostly used as a reaction to mass ht, right? Protoss started loosing when T in the gsl started massing ghosts, right? Im just confused how it can take so long to come up with mass ghosts. Im pretty confident that at least MASS ghost was really rare before it appeared in the gsl.
Protoss was/is considered up because of 2 reasons:
1) 111 Which I still think is way to strong
2) Mass Ghosts
After this mass ghost style appeared protoss would usually just roll over and die and had no way to win in lategame pvt.
Now blizzard patched this, and no we should wait and see. Im not even saying there are no issues. I just think that one issue was fixed and now we should wait for a bit til everything has settled. Maybe all other terran units are useless but I think we should at least wait for a bit, units like banshees have a ton of potential. And Im pretty confident mass ghosts was never used, even back when it removed all shields.
I agree on the thor/feedback thing though. And Hots will hopefully improve terran mech. Though Im kinda afraid of something like hellion marauder, annihilates both zealots and stalkers :/ But well see
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On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are.......
Hey hi, thanks for answering 
You didn't agree much with what I said (:D) so I'm going to go for it and ask for a bit of your knowledge there, time for me to learn something!
- What do you consider the strongest Protoss all ins? Some kind of 2 base gateway all in? The usual VR bullshit? Immortal busts? 4gate warpprim? I'm sure there is a lot more that I can't think of, it would be very useful to know how you feel about them.
- Do you feel like you can pressure protoss in midgame (I would say, while he's still powering on 2 bases with double forge and blink, grabbing his third), and if yes, how? Is there a wide enough window before Protoss AoE?
- Late game I pretty much agree with you. I think that before the EMP nerf, you had the possibility to be very cost effective with your Terran max though, do you agree or do you think lategame TvP was impossible even before the EMP nerf?
Thanks alot if you take the time to answer, Jinro, and good luck in the future regardless
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Part of the issue I feel is that terran's have forgotten just how good drops are against toss.
KEEP. DROPPING.
I play the matchup from both sides, and I win almost all of them.
As toss, I use the old phoenix play, and crush armies that come at me hard (but! to be fair, I play passive toss)
As terran, I use an expand heavy, drop heavy, thorzain style of play (Walk the edge between greedy and too greedy)- I make sure ghosts can hit the templar, etc etc etc. and I drop as protoss attacks. If I win the fight, that's it, I've probably won the game, as the drop is busy in their base, killing their dudes. If I lose the fight, I have time to recover, otherwise... my dudes are in his base, killing his guys. (Go go baseracing with only two medivacs full of guys :D)
It's a very winnable MU from either side, and I'd say it's pretty much balanced in the late game. Early game I play passive from both sides, so I wouldn't know.
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Part of the issue I feel is that terran's have forgotten just how good drops are against toss.
KEEP. DROPPING.
Yeah, drops are good, but they tend to have diminishing returns. For one thing, the longer the game goes on the more trivial it is to leave a couple troops back for drop defense or use cannons for the same purpose. Once you drop on them, the more likely they are to expand their vision to their entire territory and dropping becomes much more difficult without the element of surprise.
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Drops are almost useless when the toss has blink stalkers on small-medium sized maps. On a map like tal darim they can be decent mid/late game but not game changing.
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On November 30 2011 00:43 Selkie wrote:
Part of the issue I feel is that terran's have forgotten just how good drops are against toss.
KEEP. DROPPING.
I play the matchup from both sides, and I win almost all of them.
As toss, I use the old phoenix play, and crush armies that come at me hard (but! to be fair, I play passive toss)
As terran, I use an expand heavy, drop heavy, thorzain style of play (Walk the edge between greedy and too greedy)- I make sure ghosts can hit the templar, etc etc etc. and I drop as protoss attacks. If I win the fight, that's it, I've probably won the game, as the drop is busy in their base, killing their dudes. If I lose the fight, I have time to recover, otherwise... my dudes are in his base, killing his guys. (Go go baseracing with only two medivacs full of guys :D)
It's a very winnable MU from either side, and I'd say it's pretty much balanced in the late game. Early game I play passive from both sides, so I wouldn't know.
Shouldve seen Thorzain play Hero in IPL game yesterday, it was cringeworthy. Im sure Thorzain was crying his eyes out at having for the most part outmacroed his opponent and then losing. Ofcourse hero is one of the worlds best but Thorzain has been one of the best PvT players and even if it was against Hero being unable to break the protoss while outplaying him the midgame frustrated him so much he just practically gave up. My point being players of his level couldnt find a solution to that style of play which relies heavy on defense and just surviving to the late game and sustaining your tech, not caring the terran is ahead on bases and such (you could point to OZ and Jakji but Oz played really greedy and risky the games he lost and if he just went for the standard toss play in the current meta he wouldve been ok.). Im sure theres a solution my point is if they cant do it a low-mid masters player has less of a chance against a solid defensive toss.
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IMHO drops aren't really good lategame: if you drop too much, toss is gonna a move into your natural/main, destroy your production facilities and gg
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Yeah basetrade that terran always will win.
You guys are just making excuses now, start dropping and stop the whinning.
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I find dropping against zerg much easier than it is against protoss, and they have mutalisks.
That should tell you alot
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I don't think TvP mech is as impossible as everyone makes it out to be. I've been watching a lot of Goody's games lately and he's able to win some pretty jaw-dropping engagements with a massive amount of tanks. Even against 200/200 protoss balls of perfect counters like Zealot/Immortal/Archon from really strong Ps like Mana and WhiteRa. Of course, just like every other matchup, if you get caught unsieged then you lose.
I've noticed that one thing that makes Goody's mech work is that he scouts for Colossus/HT just like a MMMVG player. And then he responds with either Ghosts or Vikings, just like any good MMMVG player. You can't use just pure factory like you can in TvT and TvZ.
The thing is, he needs to do that scouting much earlier than MMMVG because instead of worrying about just Colossus and HT he needs to worry about Colossus/HT+Immortal. As long as he gets the proper amount of Ghosts, his Tanks and Thors do just fine against Zealots and Immortals. It actually looks like its easier to EMP with a Tank heavy army instead of a Bio army, because the Siege Mode umbrella forces head-on engagements instead of letting the P skirmish and regenerate shields.
When it's all said and done, I definitely agree that it's easier to go MMMVG. But that doesn't mean that mech TvP is impossible.
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Northern Ireland117 Posts
Thing is i went ghost mech for months, and late to end game mech is dreadful vs protoss so much so that its a complete waste of resources.
Mech _can_ work if you hit abusive timings with it. But its very very hard to make it work in a passive macro orientated game. You have to turtle to 3 base and get upgrades and pretty much max out but by that time protoss can go carriar or lots of void rays and you kind of have to go all in and double expand behind it, its really really messy.
VS bad protoss players you can seriously abuse them going zealot stalker collosus mech can destory that quite hard in a good engagement but your relying on the protoss being bad which is not good
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On November 30 2011 05:09 Dusen wrote:
Yeah basetrade that terran always will win.
You guys are just making excuses now, start dropping and stop the whinning.
At a certain point drops just don't work. 4/5 zealots with good upgrades will basically stop a drop from doing damage long enough to get stalkers or other units in position. In the midgame though, drops are definitely good and I need to work on that.
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I have made the sad realization that I mostly will be cheesing to win TvP until Hots comes out.
TvP - balanced or not - is just a retarded and broken matchup on a deeply profound level :[
I think the OP makes a good point with the defenders advantage aspect. Immortals and sentries are just stupidly good vs bunkers. Even if both players fast expand in TvP the protoss can rely on forcefields to defend while the terran has to make bunkers. Ironically enough a 1 gate FE can kind of punish a terran FE by abusing this fact since forcefield also is a very useful offensive ability.
If you go for some kind of expansion with tanks to defend you can still be abused by immortals , drops or a combination of both. I had a dude immortal drop on what I thought was well positioned tanks , LOL. It can´t really be scouted if you are not very lucky because the protoss can make both units from a robo facility (which should be made in any solid PvT build) and hide them.
This list of gay stuff protoss can do to abuse the lack of defenders advantage can be made longer but I think I´ve made my point.
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That thread is exagerating slightly now (lol).
I was thinking that you can actually also say that Protoss doesn't have a defender advantage (look at PvP) because they can warp anywhere on the map so they're not really any more powerful at home compared to Terran, with bunkers, repair and shorter travel distance.
People speak about immortals which are not produced from warpgates. Dudes, deal with it, Protoss can attack with units too, there is no design flaw in that. If a unit is too strong, it will be toned down, but citing the immortal as a unit that negates the defender advantage is not relevant. That was the reason why immortals were buffed in the first place, Protoss itself had no defender's advantage against the 111, so they had to buff something, but buffing gateway units would strengthen again warpgate attacks (WHICH is bad).
Now guys, be realistic. The matchup is not impossible, wtf, if you're not a top player, just get a bit better at the game and improve your TvP; now every last post has been complaining like Protoss can litterally do whatever he feels like and have 102% winrate against T...
IlIlIlIl November 30 2011 05:25. Posts 71
I found that particularly funny because there are precisely two korean terran grandmaster accounts with that name. One is rank 6 atm. They don't seem to have any problem ;D
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The amount of time you write on this thread is time that could be going to learning to beat protoss. Just sayin.
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On November 30 2011 08:24 Kudoku wrote:
The amount of time you write on this thread is time that could be going to learning to beat protoss. Just sayin.
Too much work, easier to whine like zerg and toss have for more than a year.
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On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are.......
I disagree with Terran stronger than toss early game i think it's about even and really depends on how efficently someone scouts/ game sense. But Terran is able to denie 1 gate expo with many builds, but protoss can punish 1 rax FE with 4 gate and void ray all in, but with MVP 4 barracks play you have alot of marines sometimes you only need 1 bunker.
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Does anyone with a brain think basetrades favor T?
The moment P gets into your base, your production ends. Doesn't matter if you can float if your production is gone. P can still warpin lost supply for as long as it takes to destory gates.
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On November 30 2011 09:16 architecture wrote:
Does anyone with a brain think basetrades favor T?
The moment P gets into your base, your production ends. Doesn't matter if you can float if your production is gone. P can still warpin lost supply for as long as it takes to destory gates.
Fly away buildings, Marauders destroy buildings. Not to mention that mules don't cost supply. When does basetrade not favour terran?
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This thread is just so sad on so many levels. We saw the inklings of it a few weeks ago when terrans started whining that no one seemed to give their heros the same adulation that any victorious protoss or zerg got. Now minor balance changes are an attempt to generate the same racial sympathy and unity the other two races have.
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EPT
