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On November 30 2011 10:13 coL.drewbie wrote:
heh i like this thread, I have lots of problems agaisnt protoss right now and I hate how my ONLY build is 1 rax gasless expand vs protoss, nothing else seems to work. I think that the OP is wrong about the defenders advantage though, if the protoss wants to attack into a terran and the terran seems it coming then they can lay down EMPs, and its really hard for P to attack ( although EMP got nerfed super hard T_T ) The problem for me lategame vs protoss, is that IMO protoss just requires less APM than terran in the end game. I find myself losing to 100 apm protosses that just sit and camp to max, then send 1 probe to make pylons all over the map + a warp prism and then just start warping shit in all over the place until my army gets out of position and the protoss moves in with their main army. Terran requires so much more apm in the fights, and drops all have to be perfectly microd because protoss just warps in units as soon as they see the drop, you have to pick up and move somewhere else with 2+ different drops at the same time. Also in fights protoss just has to A move and then go back to macroing, the T has to spread units perfectly and perfect EMPs and then kite the zealots which I think is quite unfair. I think that's why korean terrans have been having an easier time TvP than foreigner terrans, because they have ridiculous apm and can multitask a lot better and handle all the fighting / macroing / multipronged attacks.
I just wish they would remove Warpgates, Buff Gateway units to compensate for crappy Protoss defenders advantage, Protoss, Zerg, Terran all win, but this adjustment would require huge changes to units stats and such. I've said this many times before Warpgates fucked up the game, I don't think it's OP but it just causes so many balance problems that just not worth the gimmick. I play Protoss btw.
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On November 30 2011 13:38 deadmau wrote:
I just wish they would remove Warpgates, Buff Gateway units to compensate for crappy Protoss defenders advantage, Protoss, Zerg, Terran all win, but this adjustment would require huge changes to units stats and such. I've said this many times before Warpgates fucked up the game, I don't think it's OP but it just causes so many balance problems that just not worth the gimmick. I play Protoss btw.
Yeah. Like why would you ever want to let a protoss get to 200/200 food with a lot of warp-gates.
If the gates are not still on cooldown they can instantly reinforce with gateway units right into the battle.
On a side note I would like to mention a detail that most people omit. In a lot of high-level games the casters sometimes gives a shot of a random nexus somewhere and more often than not you can see a lot of energy saved up.
What this means is that energy that could be spent chrono-boosting warp-gates hasn´t been.
Protoss players probably reason that it is easier to just add on extra gates which only cost 150 minerals and no gas each.
The optimal way to play protoss would be to not save up energy and instead build less warp-gates and use chrono-boost to compensate for the lower number. This would free up resources that could be used elsewhere making the protoss army stronger earlier.
What if players started doing this instead of whining about imbalance so that ultimately blizzard give in and force out a balance patch.
The common opinion seems to be that protoss requires less APM in the lategame , so there all you protosses have a concrete suggestion of what you could spend your clicks on. It is not so hard , just hotkey all your nexuses and go to the warp-gates , hold down the "c" button until the keyboard goes into repeat mode and then go crazy clicking all your warp-gates.
Much like spamming forcefields or storms , LOL.
edit: spelling ...
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On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are.......
This.
The Terran is stronger than protoss earlygame argument comes from the days where stim was fast to research. Bio units without stim and combat shield are utter crap against a solid protoss gateway composition anywhere but on the defensive. It's when you get stim out that you can start being cost effective, and only when you get either medivacs or ghosts that you can start being aggressive, i.e midgame.
I don't think TvP is imbalanced at the pro levels, but that matchup is a lot harder for the terran to pull off at the diamond levels of skill at least, especially once the protoss can field colossi and HTs at the same time, where if you lack the correct specialist for each unit, you simply die, and I'm not even mentioning chargelots occupying 80% of your APM just kiting them to survive. At least it's good practice for ones multitasking, and I'm spamming out custom games against protoss only right now to master it...
On November 29 2011 23:05 Dusen wrote:
We(protoss) at least tried to find ways, and did find some before the patch.
You just cry, the second you have a challenge infront of you
Suck it up!
If you would like to recall the first six months of this game, where Protosses were whining about stalkers dying to mass marauders, before they figured out that the zealot was a pretty good unit toi use...
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On November 30 2011 15:31 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 20:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess ... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore. MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees. Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are....... This. The Terran is stronger than protoss earlygame comes argument from the days where stim was fast to research. Bio units without stim and combat shield are utter crap against a solid protoss gateway composition anywhere but on the defensive. It's when you get stim out that you can start being cost effective, and only when you get either medivacs or ghosts that you can start being aggressive, i.e midgame. I don't think TvP is imbalanced at the pro levels, but that matchup is a lot harder for the terran to pull off at the diamond levels of skill at least, especially once the protoss can field colossi and HTs at the same time, where if you lack the correct specialist for each unit, you simply die, and I'm not even mentioning chargelots occupying 80% of your APM just kiting them to survive.
I completely agree TERRAN IS NOT STRONG EARLY GAME, in fact protoss has an advantage with all the gateway timings using forcefields, which makes terrans static defense (bunkers) useless. I have to disagree with the pro levels however when it comes to lategame, No matter how good you are or how sick your micro is, I have seen many top tier terrans lose to massive amounts of zealots.i
It really amazes me how many out of date arguments people still seem to believe, many people think terrans are all scrubs because they won't use helions vs zealots in the lategame, simply because on paper they are a counter. You cannot base your opinions on pure theorycrafting, when in the actual game it is often completely different.
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I honestly think its the warp gate that causes problems late game. It is too easy to switch from Colossi into Tenplars. You dont even have to storm; just morph a few Archons and it's over.
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On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho.
There aren't any terrans on SOTG? Demuslim was on it once i think but otherwise there's 3 protoss's (tyler incontrol artosis) and IdrA.
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I am pretty sure they ll do something about it, right now the mu feels a joke. I am low diamond and i rarely win. Ever since P started loading up with zealots i just cant win. I mean you win 5-6 engagements in the middle but you cant take on his expos cause of warpgates, if you approach the main is 20 more zealots that you have to take on with a red army (due to stim). Also tech switch is so easy for P.
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On November 30 2011 15:51 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho. There aren't any terrans on SOTG? Demuslim was on it once i think but otherwise there's 3 protoss's (tyler incontrol artosis) and IdrA.
This is another factor that influences a lot of people. Look at the current Sc2 "media", SOTG contains 3 protoss, and usually a zerg like sheth or idra. The two main casters for GSL both play protoss, Wolf and Doa the casters for Code A also play protoss. They are all really great casters but it is easy to tell they have an understandable slight bias towards protoss in some games.
There are virtually no terran non-players that are part of the sc2 scene.
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On November 30 2011 16:07 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 15:51 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho. There aren't any terrans on SOTG? Demuslim was on it once i think but otherwise there's 3 protoss's (tyler incontrol artosis) and IdrA. This is another factor that influences a lot of people. Look at the current Sc2 "media", SOTG contains 3 protoss, and usually a zerg like sheth or idra. The two main casters for GSL both play protoss, Wolf and Doa the casters for Code A also play protoss. They are all really great casters but it is easy to tell they have an understandable slight bias towards protoss in some games. There are virtually no terran non-players that are part of the sc2 scene.
Doa plays terran, but I believe he himself admits hes pretty mediocre. Neverthless according to your arguement he should be favouring terran. Frankly this is all nonsense. I can understand Tasteless and Artosis bias's they can be like that, but Wolf and Doa are pretty balanced casters. Wolf in particular has great Toss specific knowledge so it might come of as bias but I dont think it is.
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On November 30 2011 16:07 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 15:51 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho. There aren't any terrans on SOTG? Demuslim was on it once i think but otherwise there's 3 protoss's (tyler incontrol artosis) and IdrA. This is another factor that influences a lot of people. Look at the current Sc2 "media", SOTG contains 3 protoss, and usually a zerg like sheth or idra. The two main casters for GSL both play protoss, Wolf and Doa the casters for Code A also play protoss. They are all really great casters but it is easy to tell they have an understandable slight bias towards protoss in some games. There are virtually no terran non-players that are part of the sc2 scene.
ITS LIKE A PROTOSS CONSPIRICY !!!!!
alot of people making pretty insane claims even some pro players
Not being a pro player I have to judge balance based on results which to me watching gsl and mlgs the games looks as balanced as its ever been if anything terran was a bitstronger than protoss a few months ago, this thread is just full of people (terrans) overreacting
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Not being a pro player I have to judge balance based on results which to me watching gsl and mlgs the games looks as balanced as its ever been if anything terran was a bitstronger than protoss a few months ago, this thread is just full of people (terrans) overreacting
i don´t know if its true for every terran out there but at least its true for me:
- Since month people are bitching about how op terran is. Especially in the pro scene. Some quotes are small and ironic part of casts (day9: "the marine by far the most underpowered unit in the arsenal of terran") or 20 minutes whining how absurd strong emp was and how stupidly weak toss is (incontroll in 90% of the last SOTG shows) and than there is the gsl where MVP and the terran race is dominating.
So the consens in the hole community was, terran is op, zerg and toss is weak and terrans are stupid.
What happend. In every thread a Terran wrote and ask about help someone answered: "Terran is op just make emp and easy win"
A other Point:
I was facing a lot of hate in the ladder from toss player. A game started and after i wrote my nice "gl hf": " GTFO stupid terran player easy race player stupid asshole"
Many times i won a game against Toss opponents wrote stuff like "Terran is op you are stupid". And if lost: "to stupid to play a easy-win race"
To sum up: The consens of the community was, or still is terran is op. So many terrans are facing stupid comments from other players.
But me including, the experience while playing the game was a complete diffrent. For many terrans in lower legues from Silver to Plat, even in low masters TvP is a anwinnible MU or at least an extreme difficult MU including a lot of really frustrating loses. Sometimes you play well you are dropping, you deny expansions, you could snipe some collosi but at the end storms and zealots are sloughter your stimmed army, and you loose after another warp in.
Thats the experiance of many Terrans i think and thats the reason why in the last few weeks so many Discussions pop out on TL. Couse Terrans want to share there oppinion like every other race is. And they feel unfairness.
Its not that they want to play an easy race. Its not that they want to whine about balance. Its becouse the oppinion of the community is many times unfair.
I really would like to see less hate against Terran players. More Terran streams (TLO switch to Zerg :-( still amazing stream btw). And a terran player in SOTG.
Sorry by the way for my bad english. I hope i could make my point anyway.
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On November 30 2011 16:19 Kewlots wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 16:07 Raambo11 wrote:On November 30 2011 15:51 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho. There aren't any terrans on SOTG? Demuslim was on it once i think but otherwise there's 3 protoss's (tyler incontrol artosis) and IdrA. This is another factor that influences a lot of people. Look at the current Sc2 "media", SOTG contains 3 protoss, and usually a zerg like sheth or idra. The two main casters for GSL both play protoss, Wolf and Doa the casters for Code A also play protoss. They are all really great casters but it is easy to tell they have an understandable slight bias towards protoss in some games. There are virtually no terran non-players that are part of the sc2 scene. ITS LIKE A PROTOSS CONSPIRICY !!!!! alot of people making pretty insane claims even some pro players Not being a pro player I have to judge balance based on results which to me watching gsl and mlgs the games looks as balanced as its ever been if anything terran was a bitstronger than protoss a few months ago, this thread is just full of people (terrans) overreacting
Yeah I don't think you are understanding what I am trying to say. All the people who simply brush off any terran complaint are doing so for a reason. Part of that reason is that EVERYBODY in the sc2 media scene does not play terran so they take part in the terran bashing, like on SOTG for instance. People listen and conclude that terran is OP, even if they win all of their matches vs terran on ladder. They watch GSL and see a terran player land some EMP's while tasteless goes "GG" as soon as the emps hit the army before the fight even happens, and conclude that EMP is OP, even if they never lose to it. Most terrans plat and under cant land emp's at all, resulting in people having no experience with it themself. That is just one example but I think you get the point.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything the guy above me said.
At the guy a few posts above, DOA SWITCHED TO PROTOSS, at least the last I heard...
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It's astonishing how Protoss and Zerg progamers can whine about imbalances basically for hours (eg SOTG) and its accepted by the community.
Some Terran pros tell their oppinion in a post in a tl thread and get bullshited for it. 
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On November 30 2011 19:09 SevenShots wrote:It's astonishing how Protoss and Zerg progamers can whine about imbalances basically for hours (eg SOTG) and its accepted by the community. Some Terran pros tell their oppinion in a post in a tl thread and get bullshited for it.
Blame the koreans, for being good at it. Thats all thats been to it really.
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On November 30 2011 19:12 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 19:09 SevenShots wrote:It's astonishing how Protoss and Zerg progamers can whine about imbalances basically for hours (eg SOTG) and its accepted by the community. Some Terran pros tell their oppinion in a post in a tl thread and get bullshited for it. Blame the koreans, for being good at it. Thats all thats been to it really.
Blame the foreigners, for being bad at it.
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So far the non-subject arguments presented in this thread on why Terran is underpowered:
"I saw about one game where Terran loses early game, stim must be underpowered compared to ff"
"I saw about one game where Terran loses late game, raven, thor, banshee etc all must be underpowered compared to HT, Colossus, etc" (nevermind that HT has been nerfed so hard that it barely counters mutas anymore., meanwhile Terrans are doing just fine in the GSL)
"I saw one game..."
"I saw one game..."
"I play as Terran on ladder and I find it hard..." (what? I thought it's common knowledge that Terran is hard at master level and below, while Zerg is the easiest up until the diamond level. Remember back when Latin America has its own server, there was an obscene amount of Zerg up in the master league because the top skill level on that server was actually that low.)
So... what exactly is the merit of this thread and why hasn't it been closed already?
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Edit: Lol sorry, randomly replying in a thread...
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On November 30 2011 19:17 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 19:12 Rebs wrote:On November 30 2011 19:09 SevenShots wrote:It's astonishing how Protoss and Zerg progamers can whine about imbalances basically for hours (eg SOTG) and its accepted by the community. Some Terran pros tell their oppinion in a post in a tl thread and get bullshited for it. Blame the koreans, for being good at it. Thats all thats been to it really. Blame the foreigners, for being bad at it.
Or just blame the children.
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If you dont have 300 apm and much time to play, dont play terran and switch to Protoss. The casters have done it and with good reason. You should do the same.
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@ppdealer
you are right so far. Its always a back and forward. I know TvP isn´t a anwinnible MU.
The point is more how the community is acting. And how some concerns are threated by the community. Maybe many Terrans wouldn´t whine so much in Threads like this. If the concerns of Terran players about the MU would take more serious.
Sure the OP was about deffenders advantage and more specific. But the way the discussion went (and in every thread about TvP it has went in this direction) shows that there is something going wrong. whatever it is.....
Yes you can close the thread and again the concerns the problems of terrans are not respected
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EPT
