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On November 30 2011 17:23 Gonzo103 wrote:
A other Point:
I was facing a lot of hate in the ladder from toss player. A game started and after i wrote my nice "gl hf": " GTFO stupid terran player easy race player stupid asshole"
To be fair that could just be the guy dicking around. I did the exact same thing against a protoss player the other day to troll him when he GL HF'd me...
...he killed me with a one base immortal all-in and told me to l2p and put me on ignore :D
He mad.
As far as getting hate on the ladder. It happens. People whine about everything. Just shrug it off.
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On November 30 2011 15:31 Dalavita wrote:
The Terran is stronger than protoss earlygame argument comes from the days where stim was fast to research. Bio units without stim and combat shield are utter crap against a solid protoss gateway composition anywhere but on the defensive. It's when you get stim out that you can start being cost effective, and only when you get either medivacs or ghosts that you can start being aggressive, i.e midgame.
...
If you would like to recall the first six months of this game, where Protosses were whining about stalkers dying to mass marauders, before they figured out that the zealot was a pretty good unit toi use...
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Concussive_Shells
Concussive Marauders murder pretty much everything Protoss can produce early game unless the Protoss rushes to charge like crazy or gets absolutely perfect forcefields in an optimal location. Sentries are weak in direct combat, Zealots are slow without charge and are melee and Stalkers just die to the Marauder bonus damage. You can't really fight it because your units either can't get close enough or don't do enough damage and you can't run away because the effect slows you down. Concussive is also the cheapest upgrade in the game for time and resource cost.
Stim doesn't HAVE to be your very first upgrade you know?
That said I think the best summary of the situation is this post:
On November 30 2011 10:44 mordk wrote:
I think neither race has a clear advantage in the matchup, but that's not because the matchup is balanced, but because it's broken as hell. Almost equally broken actually.
What I dislike about the OP is that he focuses only on Protoss' strengths in the matchup while completely disregarding Terran's strenghts, which are indeed many.
In the early game, Terran has a CLEAR advantage. Terran allins have time and time again demonstrated how powerful they are vs Protoss, simply because they have the ability to dictate what the protoss does. Keep in mind, for example, that a well executed 1-1-1 on a favorable map must be blind countered or it WILL kill you as Protoss, because when the scout gets there you're already dead. The fact that a build must be blind countered only prooves how broken early game TvP is.
In the mid game it's somewhat even, with early ghost timings giving a slight advantage to terran, related to the amount of sentries protoss can muster to hold the EMPs, this is also the usual timing in which ghosts will destroy Protoss in a straight up fight, so P will usually turtle. This means that barring some drops or other such things, this is probably the most boring stage in any matchup, absolutely nothing happens at this point. Protoss builds an army, Terran builds ghosts/vikings depending on what he scouts.
In the late game is when everything is actually most broken. Given how units clump together, both EMPs and Storm are overpowered, and can make or break the matchup. Ghost/HT micro isn't exciting or fun to watch. In this regard it should be noted that because of each race scouting and detection capabilities, and mobility differences between units, ghosts have an inherent advantage against HTs, but at the same time, once Protoss has enough chargelots it doesn't matter because they pretty much just don't die at all.
All in all, the matchup is boring, broken as hell, usually determined by a single battle, or even a single drop, since the matchup is so fragile there's no way to recover from a sniped charge/storm/thermal lance upgrade. There's no dynamics in the game, nothing to make it interesting to watch.
It's really sad imo. TvP must be the most boring of all matchups, pretty much everything about it is wrong and stale.
We can argue all day whether its balanced or not; but fundamentally its kinda broken in many ways and way too fragile.
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On November 30 2011 19:31 ppdealer wrote:
So far the non-subject arguments presented in this thread on why Terran is underpowered:
"I saw about one game where Terran loses early game, stim must be underpowered compared to ff"
"I saw about one game where Terran loses late game, raven, thor, banshee etc all must be underpowered compared to HT, Colossus, etc" (nevermind that HT has been nerfed so hard that it barely counters mutas anymore., meanwhile Terrans are doing just fine in the GSL)
"I saw one game..."
"I saw one game..."
"I play as Terran on ladder and I find it hard..." (what? I thought it's common knowledge that Terran is hard at master level and below, while Zerg is the easiest up until the diamond level. Remember back when Latin America has its own server, there was an obscene amount of Zerg up in the master league because the top skill level on that server was actually that low.)
So... what exactly is the merit of this thread and why hasn't it been closed already?
The thread starter did not claim that Terran was underpowered , I think he specifically states that but maybe you didn´t care to actually read what he wrote. Since you apparently didn´t read the OP you have obviously not analyzed his take on why TvP is broken.
Instead you come in on page 16 and start trolling.
Nice style!
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On November 30 2011 19:42 secretary bird wrote:
If you dont have 300 apm and much time to play, dont play terran and switch to Protoss. The casters have done it and with good reason. You should do the same.
Oh pls, keeping your zealots in front of your collosus while landing forcefields takes as much micro as any other races main unit compasition. Give it a try some time and see if you dont come to the same conclusion i did.
On November 30 2011 15:51 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho. There aren't any terrans on SOTG? Demuslim was on it once i think but otherwise there's 3 protoss's (tyler incontrol artosis) and IdrA.
thats just nonsense about no terrans on the SOTG. JT McDaniel is terran, Artosis is protoss now but was a terran in stacraft bloodwar and Day9 is random/terran... Also painuser is a terran host on ItG.
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On December 01 2011 04:01 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 19:31 ppdealer wrote:
So far the non-subject arguments presented in this thread on why Terran is underpowered:
"I saw about one game where Terran loses early game, stim must be underpowered compared to ff"
"I saw about one game where Terran loses late game, raven, thor, banshee etc all must be underpowered compared to HT, Colossus, etc" (nevermind that HT has been nerfed so hard that it barely counters mutas anymore., meanwhile Terrans are doing just fine in the GSL)
"I saw one game..."
"I saw one game..."
"I play as Terran on ladder and I find it hard..." (what? I thought it's common knowledge that Terran is hard at master level and below, while Zerg is the easiest up until the diamond level. Remember back when Latin America has its own server, there was an obscene amount of Zerg up in the master league because the top skill level on that server was actually that low.)
So... what exactly is the merit of this thread and why hasn't it been closed already? The thread starter did not claim that Terran was underpowered , I think he specifically states that but maybe you didn´t care to actually read what he wrote. Since you apparently didn´t read the OP you have obviously not analyzed his take on why TvP is broken. Instead you come in on page 16 and start trolling. Nice style!
It is true, what the orginional post says is that that terran get weaker and weaker the longer the game goes. But don't worry, this is not a balance discussion thread. It is just a discussion on how terrans get weaker and are horrible at defendant against all ins.
And we all know that saying your race is weak is not saying that it is underpowered.
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Terran loses a few matches and shit goes down- damn. better make the matchup favor terran
whats the current win% again? yeah..
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On November 29 2011 03:58 RastaMonsta wrote:
Bunkers, thats it lol
There must be a reason this isnt banned yet, it must be because TL has only protoss and zerg moderators.
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On December 01 2011 04:01 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 19:31 ppdealer wrote:
So far the non-subject arguments presented in this thread on why Terran is underpowered:
"I saw about one game where Terran loses early game, stim must be underpowered compared to ff"
"I saw about one game where Terran loses late game, raven, thor, banshee etc all must be underpowered compared to HT, Colossus, etc" (nevermind that HT has been nerfed so hard that it barely counters mutas anymore., meanwhile Terrans are doing just fine in the GSL)
"I saw one game..."
"I saw one game..."
"I play as Terran on ladder and I find it hard..." (what? I thought it's common knowledge that Terran is hard at master level and below, while Zerg is the easiest up until the diamond level. Remember back when Latin America has its own server, there was an obscene amount of Zerg up in the master league because the top skill level on that server was actually that low.)
So... what exactly is the merit of this thread and why hasn't it been closed already? The thread starter did not claim that Terran was underpowered , I think he specifically states that but maybe you didn´t care to actually read what he wrote. Since you apparently didn´t read the OP you have obviously not analyzed his take on why TvP is broken. Instead you come in on page 16 and start trolling. Nice style! this person should actually go back and retake english class, because either u can't read, or the only language u speak is troll. Edit: the person saying ONE GAME
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On December 01 2011 04:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 04:01 one-one-one wrote:On November 30 2011 19:31 ppdealer wrote:
So far the non-subject arguments presented in this thread on why Terran is underpowered:
"I saw about one game where Terran loses early game, stim must be underpowered compared to ff"
"I saw about one game where Terran loses late game, raven, thor, banshee etc all must be underpowered compared to HT, Colossus, etc" (nevermind that HT has been nerfed so hard that it barely counters mutas anymore., meanwhile Terrans are doing just fine in the GSL)
"I saw one game..."
"I saw one game..."
"I play as Terran on ladder and I find it hard..." (what? I thought it's common knowledge that Terran is hard at master level and below, while Zerg is the easiest up until the diamond level. Remember back when Latin America has its own server, there was an obscene amount of Zerg up in the master league because the top skill level on that server was actually that low.)
So... what exactly is the merit of this thread and why hasn't it been closed already? The thread starter did not claim that Terran was underpowered , I think he specifically states that but maybe you didn´t care to actually read what he wrote. Since you apparently didn´t read the OP you have obviously not analyzed his take on why TvP is broken. Instead you come in on page 16 and start trolling. Nice style! It is true, what the orginional post says is that that terran get weaker and weaker the longer the game goes. But don't worry, this is not a balance discussion thread. It is just a discussion on how terrans get weaker and are horrible at defendant against all ins. And we all know that saying your race is weak is not saying that it is underpowered.
Your post adds nothing to this discussion , it is just another example of people trying to trivialize the concerns of Terran players by using the skill argument.
What the OP wrote was (among other things) that the defenders advantage normally given by tanks is lacking in TvP.
So far terrans have been able to come up with concrete builds or techniques that defend any specific Protoss all-in.
The problem is to see it coming since different all-ins require very different responses.
As an example you can defend Zerg all-ins such as high-economy baneling busts and ling-roach all-ins by fast-teching siege mode and have good building placement.
In TvP , how should I know that my opponent is proxying a starport or a robotics facility. Any competent terran can surely see that the Protoss is not taking his natural and then scan his base only to see 3 gates and a cybernetics core.
The spirit of the thread is to point out how profoundly stupid the current state of TvP is. Ask any Terran out there what they really think about TvP , then tune in to any featured Terran streamer and watch them go crazy about the TvP match-up by doing weird all-ins and funky builds.
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On November 30 2011 10:44 mordk wrote:
I think neither race has a clear advantage in the matchup, but that's not because the matchup is balanced, but because it's broken as hell. Almost equally broken actually.
What I dislike about the OP is that he focuses only on Protoss' strengths in the matchup while completely disregarding Terran's strenghts, which are indeed many.
In the early game, Terran has a CLEAR advantage. Terran allins have time and time again demonstrated how powerful they are vs Protoss, simply because they have the ability to dictate what the protoss does. Keep in mind, for example, that a well executed 1-1-1 on a favorable map must be blind countered or it WILL kill you as Protoss, because when the scout gets there you're already dead. The fact that a build must be blind countered only prooves how broken early game TvP is.
In the mid game it's somewhat even, with early ghost timings giving a slight advantage to terran, related to the amount of sentries protoss can muster to hold the EMPs, this is also the usual timing in which ghosts will destroy Protoss in a straight up fight, so P will usually turtle. This means that barring some drops or other such things, this is probably the most boring stage in any matchup, absolutely nothing happens at this point. Protoss builds an army, Terran builds ghosts/vikings depending on what he scouts.
In the late game is when everything is actually most broken. Given how units clump together, both EMPs and Storm are overpowered, and can make or break the matchup. Ghost/HT micro isn't exciting or fun to watch. In this regard it should be noted that because of each race scouting and detection capabilities, and mobility differences between units, ghosts have an inherent advantage against HTs, but at the same time, once Protoss has enough chargelots it doesn't matter because they pretty much just don't die at all.
All in all, the matchup is boring, broken as hell, usually determined by a single battle, or even a single drop, since the matchup is so fragile there's no way to recover from a sniped charge/storm/thermal lance upgrade. There's no dynamics in the game, nothing to make it interesting to watch.
It's really sad imo. TvP must be the most boring of all matchups, pretty much everything about it is wrong and stale.
Pretty much this. It also seems some stages of the game are more fragile for one side than the other, but it feels shitty the whole way through
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On December 01 2011 04:08 Juanald wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 19:42 secretary bird wrote:
If you dont have 300 apm and much time to play, dont play terran and switch to Protoss. The casters have done it and with good reason. You should do the same. Oh pls, keeping your zealots in front of your collosus while landing forcefields takes as much micro as any other races main unit compasition. Give it a try some time and see if you dont come to the same conclusion i did. Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 15:51 OSM.OneManArmy wrote:On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho. There aren't any terrans on SOTG? Demuslim was on it once i think but otherwise there's 3 protoss's (tyler incontrol artosis) and IdrA. thats just nonsense about no terrans on the SOTG. JT McDaniel is terran, Artosis is protoss now but was a terran in stacraft bloodwar and Day9 is random/terran... Also painuser is a terran host on ItG.
JP plays random, not terran specifically, and as of late he has been streaming pure zerg play on Korean ladder. Artosis is protoss in SC2, which is the game that is currently being discussed, not Broodwar. Following that, yes your only relevant fact is that Day9 plays random. If you're going to attempt to throw around facts, make sure you know them before saying them.
Edit: Also, my view at the moment, I feel the lengthy post describing how the MU is not really "leaning" towards one race, but how the MU in general is just broken in every stage of the game really hits it home.
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Shouldn't this be in strategy?
But anyway;
TvP is hard right now. Maybe that's hard to swallow for protoss players who have just come out of their dark ages, and now that protoss is actually winning streamed games, but this is pretty much consensus among terran players; it's hard.
Biased toss players, swallow your accusations of whine. It's not balance whine to say it's hard, because this is supposed to happen. There are supposed to be periods where X race can't beat Y race, then when X race figures something out it's supposed to get really hard for Y race for a bit.
That's the fucking game.
So no we're not saying terran is underpowered. We're saying it's fucking difficult and we don't really know what to do right now.
What I like to do TvP these days is take a super early third before gas, but at a random base on the map. They're mostly four player maps, so usually the main or nat of one of the empty spawn points. Then I get 3 gas and make three or four bunkers if I don't scout an expo, and a couple turrets. If I actually scout like a four gate or a 3gate void ray, I won't make the third base I'll just defend with a lot of bunkers and repair. Good bunker placement and decent micro, you hold off all the all ins in the world.
If they do take an early expo, you laugh. Because you have won the game. Make a single bunker, go up to like 5 rax and just go fucking kill him with marauders. 99% of the time, he will not scout your extra base. If he does, and this is my favourite part, when he sends unit to kill it, just attack his base. Your third should be out of the way, and the protoss army famously is best when in a ball.
Got the extra-hidden-third-before-gas build by watching the replays of Bomber vs Sase from an MLG. I think Orlando. Either way, it's super effective. I've had a couple of silly losses though where I don't get enough production and try and take my fourth a bit too early and I just die, but apart from that I've had great success with the build.
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To be honest the TvP matchup for terran is extremely hard at the diamond level. If a protoss is competent enough to hold off aggression and macro decently then the end game army battles are just so easy for the protoss. Terran at the diamond level have to micro much more than the protoss hence hurting their macro, but if the terran doesn't micro so intensely his 200/200 army can dissappear for a mere 30 supply from the protoss. Even if your up by 2 bases you can still get rolled over with one mistake. The matchup is balanced but the redundancy of losing to someone who can just A attack storm and then warp in 20 units to reinforce his army is a little rediculous sometimes. Guess we terrans will just have to keep improving. There will be a point where the terran gets all the micro down and the protoss players will have to actually learn how to micro their 200/200 army to not have unfavorable trades.
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There are two things that make TvP a stupid matchup to play:
1) Warp gates negate any defenders advantage that terran (or zerg in ZvP) has. And don't talk about bunkers. I'm talking about Protoss being able to warp in reinforcements immediately and save ~30s of walking time. Not to mention the ability to warp in the middle of your base if he has a pylon on the low ground.
2) The fact that MMM is the only viable strategy vs protoss. Anything else only works if it's a gimmick. (i.e. the 1/1/1) You can't go mech, or air, or anything resembling that and stay alive to win the lategame.
It's the reason I absolutely hate TvP. I don't have a problem with MMM, but when I play 30 TvPs, then watch 30 TvP's, and it's all the exact same MMM thing, it gets boring and stupid.
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On December 01 2011 04:55 genius_man16 wrote:
2) The fact that MMM is the only viable strategy vs protoss. Anything else only works if it's a gimmick. (i.e. the 1/1/1) You can't go mech, or air, or anything resembling that and stay alive to win the lategame.
MVP and Jjakji haven't gone into the lategame without MMM, but they have certainly won on two bases or more. Tell me that's gimmicky, please.
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On December 01 2011 04:55 genius_man16 wrote:
2) The fact that MMM is the only viable strategy vs protoss. Anything else only works if it's a gimmick. (i.e. the 1/1/1) You can't go mech, or air, or anything resembling that and stay alive to win the lategame.
It's the reason I absolutely hate TvP. I don't have a problem with MMM, but when I play 30 TvPs, then watch 30 TvP's, and it's all the exact same MMM thing, it gets boring and stupid.
This isntt entirely true. While massing mech of 2 base (anymore and you spread yourself to thin on most maps with mech slow as it is) with thor/hellion/viking/banshee/raven is viable its a bit of a coinflip, I wont go as far as saying its gimicky. The main benefit I can see with it is that it forces a protoss player to play reactively which is what the terran player is usually doing in the MMM style, so you control the flow a bit better. And since its not often used it can sometimes throw them off. If the guy didnt read it and expecting a 1 v1 started pumping out collosi and zealot/stalker/HT your pretty good. If he starts double robo immortal its GG. Still its pretty allin. If you dont absolutely rofl stomp youd might as well GG.
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On December 01 2011 00:36 Lightspeaker wrote:
Concussive Marauders murder pretty much everything Protoss can produce early game unless the Protoss rushes to charge like crazy or gets absolutely perfect forcefields in an optimal location. Sentries are weak in direct combat, Zealots are slow without charge and are melee and Stalkers just die to the Marauder bonus damage. You can't really fight it because your units either can't get close enough or don't do enough damage and you can't run away because the effect slows you down. Concussive is also the cheapest upgrade in the game for time and resource cost.
Stim doesn't HAVE to be your very first upgrade you know?
Get a good mix of zealots and stalkers with enough sentry support to force field and you can take apart ANY bio combination before stim is out. I suggest you actually try things before pulling smartass remarks. Concussive shells don't prevent you from getting force fielded and dying to zealots, only the increased DPS of stim allows you to survive that.
Concussive is good to prevent zealot and stalker pokes, but it doesn't let you get aggressive if the protoss has any army to speak off. If the protoss wants to get aggressive, he can do it whether you got concussive shell or not. On the other hand, sentries hard block any pre-stim aggression. And perfect force fields mean putting two behind the terran army and letting the zealots clean up.
You can't really have perfect balance of strength in the earlygame. Different units are different and their usages makes the earlygame the way it is. I'm simply "debunking" the terran strong earlygame myth. Stim is the key to terrans strength, and stim takes a long time to get.
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On December 01 2011 07:57 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 00:36 Lightspeaker wrote:
Concussive Marauders murder pretty much everything Protoss can produce early game unless the Protoss rushes to charge like crazy or gets absolutely perfect forcefields in an optimal location. Sentries are weak in direct combat, Zealots are slow without charge and are melee and Stalkers just die to the Marauder bonus damage. You can't really fight it because your units either can't get close enough or don't do enough damage and you can't run away because the effect slows you down. Concussive is also the cheapest upgrade in the game for time and resource cost.
Stim doesn't HAVE to be your very first upgrade you know?
Get a good mix of zealots and stalkers with enough sentry support to force field and you can take apart ANY bio combination before stim is out. I suggest you actually try things before pulling smartass remarks. Concussive shells don't prevent you from getting force fielded and dying to zealots, only the increased DPS of stim allows you to survive that. Concussive is good to prevent zealot and stalker pokes, but it doesn't let you get aggressive if the protoss has any army to speak off. If the protoss wants to get aggressive, he can do it whether you got concussive shell or not. On the other hand, sentries hard block any pre-stim aggression. And perfect force fields mean putting two behind the terran army and letting the zealots clean up. You can't really have perfect balance of strength in the earlygame. Different units are different and their usages makes the earlygame the way it is. I'm simply "debunking" the terran strong earlygame myth. Stim is the key to terrans strength, and stim takes a long time to get.
yea no stim and gateway units will rofl stomp you without a healthy mix of marines.If were talking marauders specifically. Zealots will rofl stomp you and if your busy kiting them stalker's while they suck at living against marauders are pretty good at killing them. Also marauders get no bonus to sentrys so targetting them kiting is a pretty big investment so its a lose lose where you choose the lesser evil based on the situation.
It varies based on bo's and how you use your units but frankly its not really a worthwile investment unless your trying to punish greedy toss.
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On December 01 2011 04:25 sandman1454 wrote:There must be a reason this isnt banned yet, it must be because TL has only protoss and zerg moderators.
Is there really a reason to attack the moderators dude, it's people like you that have ruined TL in the first place, gtfo.
On December 01 2011 04:27 sandman1454 wrote:
this person should actually go back and retake english class, because either u can't read, or the only language u speak is troll. Edit: the person saying ONE GAME
And then you attack someone's English skills, I'm from the U.S., and definitely feel people like you make our country look worse and worse, get off your high horse, this is a GLOBALIZED world we live in now you dimwit, ban me for all I care, this level of arrogance/ignorance is unacceptable. It's 2011 going on 2012, this type of thought really still exists?
edit: sry for profanity, was dumbfounded
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On November 30 2011 10:25 Juanald wrote:
I think if there really was a balance problem youd find community leaders like STOG and ITG would hahve discussed it, protoss have just been practicing for months and have finally started to break even thanks to our brilliant protoss heros. im really saddened to see the top foreign terrans balance whine (jinro drewbie avilo) i expected more tbh imho.
That's a really bad argument.
SotG: 0 Terrans, 2 Protoss. Even most of the reoccuring guests are non-Terran: Artosis, Day9, Idra, Destiny, Huk. The last Terran they had on was Demuslim like what, 4 months ago? And before that I think it was Gretorp waaay back when NASL started, almost a year ago.
ITG: 0 Terrans, 1 Protoss. I don't think they've ever had a Terran guest, mostly because their pro guests are all EG (understandably), and they don't have many Terrans. I love PainUser but he's already Artosis'd himself out of the competitive scene, just like Gretorp.
Terran does awesome in Korea because Terran rewards high level play the most. You need a gazillion apm to micro and position lategame Terran compositions properly. As well as get away with 1 Rax FEs. But that doesn't help the vast majority of us below Korean High Masters. Protoss and Zerg can get away with just a-moving flanks.
Terrans also have the least representation in online communities. Multiple polls on both Reddit and TL have pegged Terran population at about 25% followed by Protoss at 35% and Zerg at 40%. So they're easiest to shout down.
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EPT
